AGD at a crossroad.. where do you want it to go?

[MindJob]

Obviously, AGD is at an important crossroad right now...

As the biggest part of its customer base.. what direction do you want it to go in? What do you want to change? What new products do you want to see?

Im curious to see what everyone else thinks.

:cheers:

[Lupis Fidelis]

I would personally like to see AGD "push the mechanical marker envelope". The Auto mag is the best and most reliable mech out there. One day there could be a pnuematic trigger version of the TAC/ULE marker. It would be nice if an emphasis could be placed on these guns.....Like say an all mech tourney....Maybe call it Mech assult or Mech warriors :) . I also think AGD should focus on more "inventions" like the warp and such. I myself am not interested in E-guns and would not lose any sleep over AGD turning away from that path. I guess this is really what they have been doing as of late so I think they are really doing a good job. AGD needs to keep its eyes peeled for new and old niches that need to be filled.

[BobTheCow]

<b>As the biggest part of its customer base..</b> what direction do you want it to go in? What do you want to change? What new products do you want to see?Not necessarily true. It's easy to forget that us, as in those who frequently visit the forums, do not represent the majority of paintball players or AGD customers. There are many many customers who probably don't know forums like this exist, let alone visit them frequently.

Additionally, I think a much higher percentage of us (again, "us" = AOers) are the speedball/tourney type than is the norm for paintball players overall, and so AOers feelings probably won't correctly reflect what the AGD consumer base as a whole would want.

So... umm... didn't actually contribute to answering your question at all, sorry about that. Just keep this in mind, anybody, we're not as super-influential as we might like to think. :)

[cledford]

I expect that due to liablity reasons electro markers will soon be HIGHLY regulated. Expect at a mininum manditory trigger pull weights at a mininum.

If AGD is poised correctly, they can swoop in with the pnu-mag (I think it should be called the Titan after Ronin's post in the Tom thread) and clean up. Simpler design, no batteries, no legality issues, no liablity.

Sounds like a no brainer.

-Calvin

[Thordic]

TP is right, AO may think they are the largest portion of AGD's customer base, but we are just a portion.

[Wc Keep]

i seriously think that agd needs to come out with a new gun. something mech, something light, something efficient, something small.

they need to drop everything and anything that is mag though. that includes their valve. dont know how many actually noticed but that valve is the heaviest part of the gun. they should make a valve that is seperate from the reg. this way you can have a lighter gun in general and agd will be able to market their reg to other guns.

[GT]

valve is the heaviest part of the gun. they should make a valve that is seperate from the reg. this way you can have a lighter gun in general and agd will be able to market their reg to other guns.

Only makes sense that the reg is heavist piece, it contains all the internals AND an inline reg. I challenge you to find a gun that has a lighter set of internals and inline. Heck, who makes a reg lighter than the reg on the back of the valve.

I think one thing that makes AGD great is that almost everything is backwards compatible. If I were AGD I would push the mech market, hook up with DW and see what kind of mags pour out of the mold. Make more bling-bling bodies, as well as accesories for the tac-one. I think the bigger issue is getting 3rd parties invovled. Sure would be nice to see another eclipse/shocktech/dark mag.

[chairman_mao]

^^^^^
WERD!

If it ain't broke don't fix it. I agree that third party is next evolution of mags. In the last year how many third party dealers have entered the mag fray and how many more options are their. Think of what would happen if a LARGE company started to produce mag parts.

[Muzikman]

Well, personally, since you are already at the "Crossroads" just go head and sell your soul to the devil.

;)

[GodLovesUgly]

i think that with the new rules, that look like they're going to limit the rate of fire, E markers are going to be a problem... you don't need a DM4 that can shoot 30 bps if the tourny's will only let you have 15, this gives AGD a huge advantage to take a big market share. with the development of the pneu-mag and as said above some third party help Mags could easily become a more widly picked marker. also a little advertizing goes a long way... as for the direction of AGD the only way i can see is up!

[NewMagMan21]

I may be going into dangerous ground since Im kinda new to AGD. But why not make a whole new style of gun *Scary music* *screams in the night*:eek: :eek: :eek: !!
Lol just an Idea but I mean an Automag is amazingly awsome design which I bow down to :hail: . But why not have the regulator like other guns do, and maybe have a stacked tube body. I know it would dramatically change AGD and possibly for the better. You see this all the time with companies having very different styles of guns in their arsenal.
Just what I think and again I think I may have crossed a line :ninja:

[Muzikman]

Ok, here is what I see as a way to redesign the "Mag" (and the key is not to call it a mag).

Still use the blow forward design based around the front half of the the valve. Move the reg to a standard inline reg. Make a body with an integrated rail. Make this rail a bit thicker and run an air passage from the ASA to the valve inside the rail. Go back to the Banjo bolt idea from the original RT's. Now install a "hAir" type trigger system and I think you would have a mechanical gun that people would buy. The other thing to do is figure out how to fit an E-Blade frame on the bad boy. That way people can go electo by just purchasing an already produced frame.

[GT]

Ok, here is what I see as a way to redesign the "Mag" (and the key is not to call it a mag).

Still use the blow forward design based around the front half of the the valve. Move the reg to a standard inline reg. Make a body with an integrated rail. Make this rail a bit thicker and run an air passage from the ASA to the valve inside the rail. Go back to the Banjo bolt idea from the original RT's. Now install a "hAir" type trigger system and I think you would have a mechanical gun that people would buy. The other thing to do is figure out how to fit an E-Blade frame on the bad boy. That way people can go electo by just purchasing an already produced frame.


I like but,
It must also come in aGG colors and mills....... dawG

[Mer]

I'd love to see AGD do some heavy advertising. Do whatever they can to dispell the "Mag Blender" nick name they've acquired over the years. Get their markers back in the online stores. Do this all while not resorting to the negative advertising technique of putting other peoples equipment down.

The custom ULE and Tac One Mags are great but it limits them to factory only sales. They need to get some standardized markers out on the market and in the different stores for people to get their hands on. When they see the simplicity of the design the public will love it.

They need to offer counter top displays of the level 10 bolt in action. Just a properly tuned bolt with a cut away body that can demonstrate the dollar bill test right there in front of the customer. Tell me that wouldn't be a sure sale.

There is so much sales potential for AGD that their not taking advantage of. Nothing is going to happen unless they start doing something.

Eric

[gibby]

Marketing has always been an issue with AGD. Along with the "old" technology and the lack of a major design change and time, the "blender" reputation will always be there. However, like all of us know, they aren't anymore but people still feel that way about Mags. Why? Because they are not aware of the changes that has occured in the last few years.

Great, we know the problem so we all feel that we need to fix it. We spend all our time trying to convince others that mags are great and can still compete...but most of the time, we do this on the fields and people rarely have time to REALLY listen. That's great for the few who really do listen and take the time to be open minded, but the simple fact remains...if mags aren't on the paintball store's walls, players and consumers will never be exposed to mags.

AGD needs to start getting back on the good side of shop owners. They need to educate the shop owners or at least let them be aware of what the mag is today. About a year ago, I went into a shop that had one level 10 bolt kit. I mentioned to the owner that I thought it was cool that they had it available. But after talking with him more, I found out that he has never installed one before and wasn't really sure how it worked. I found that a bit weird. This wasn't a small mom and pop store either. Granted, they were a major dealer for WGP out here in SoCal.

My point...get the shop owners involved and educated. Show more support for shop owners and don't leave them dry.

[cledford]

I think the beauty of the mag is the fact that the valve and operating system (blow forward bolt setup) are all in one. When you hold a mag valve in your hand you are in essence holding a drastically compressed paintgun – the rest of the mag is only there to hold things together. If you take a ULE mag now and remove the valve it weighs next to nothing – there is no other paintgun even close after you remove what makes it work. I've got a Viking and as good as it is the design is crude compared to that of a mag/emag. You've got the bolt, ram assembly, LPR, valve, noid, and inline, along with a lot of extra material to hold everything together. Take all of that and add the weight together and I bet the old stainless valves still weigh in the same or lighter the what it takes to make most other current guns work.

Inline regs (for Vikings or shockers or timmys or whatever) make good grips - but it is SO unclean compared to the design of the mag. As far as the rest of the guts being sprinkled all around the gun – it’s just so… unorganized.

I do say that the external lines need to go - so go back to the original RT/banjo bolt setup Muzik referenced. Other then that, change the name - but leave the rest (LX and single tube design) alone. The mag is the lightest, shortest, most compact and efficiently designed marker EVER produced. No reason to change that - at some point people will catch on. Other then BPS, weight and then size seems to be the most important areas of concern. The mag wins in these areas.

Anyhow, do away with the valve design and you might as well just do away with the company. A completely different (read like everyone one else's) would be a step backwards for AGD and not worth buying. There is a reason Tom has stuck with the design he has all of these years - because it's best.

-Calvin

[White_Noise]

first off...agd just doesnt have the $$$ to start dishing out for advertising.

second: why change something that is the best on the market? the rt/x valve is the lightest/fastest valve/reg system on the market, why on earth would you want agd to change that? what it seems like those who want major changes want is just another stacked tube marker like whats on the rest of the market. most of your plans that call for massive change require that agd go away from something that has led to their folowing by many people, and that is retro fit capability. i you change the marker too much, then they wont be compatible and many mag users will not like this.

i say bring out new electronics once the smoke clears on the electro market, and wait for a pneumatic trigger to come out.....like agd has been doing.

NOTE: going back to banjo bolt=bad idea....

[Muzikman]

The Banjo bolt was not as bad as people tried to make it out to be.

As for changing the valve to use an inline reg rather than the integrated reg really does not take much and it will make the valve smaller. It will still operate the exact same.

Since most of the people put a big foregrip on their guns anyway, why not fill that tube with a few parts and lighten up the valve.

[Wc Keep]

you guys are saying that the reg is the fastest out there, then why not make it into an inline reg so that people who dont like mags can put it on their timmy or dm4. that way agd is now getting more $$$$ for advertising and what not.

second the reg may be the fastest but the gun definately isnt. they need to come out with something fast to compete in the tourney scene. and dont say oh the hair this. the hair aint out so it doesnt count. which means that agd needs to come up with something fast on their own. take a ule body put the valve into the body and put the reg on the inline so you now only have the gun being as long as a ule body and make the weight more balanced, do like muzik said and make the rail slightly larger to have the air pass through that, and make an electronic trigger type for it.

[Muzikman]

I still think figuring out a way to install an E-Blade on a mag would be the way to go. No legal issues, it's a proven frame, etc. I mean all you need is a new sear trip. I am sure one of the smart guys can figure out how to do it:)

[Wc Keep]

i wonder if dave is looking at this thread cause theres some pretty good ideas here.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

you guys are saying that the reg is the fastest out there, then why not make it into an inline reg so that people who dont like mags can put it on their timmy or dm4. that way agd is now getting more $$$$ for advertising and what not.

I've been thinking the same thing for a long long time now. I think it would be one of the best ways to get their name out there and show how well their products works.

Putting the reg in the foregrip is a good idea. But that would lead to people putting inferior regs on and then saying it's the guns fault for not keeping up.
What should realy be done is a completely new gun. Use the X-valve to start, but make refinements in it, more user friendly, smaller, more milling options etc.

[Lohman446]

Not necessarily true. It's easy to forget that us, as in those who frequently visit the forums, do not represent the majority of paintball players or AGD customers. There are many many customers who probably don't know forums like this exist, let alone visit them frequently.

Additionally, I think a much higher percentage of us (again, "us" = AOers) are the speedball/tourney type than is the norm for paintball players overall, and so AOers feelings probably won't correctly reflect what the AGD consumer base as a whole would want.

So... umm... didn't actually contribute to answering your question at all, sorry about that. Just keep this in mind, anybody, we're not as super-influential as we might like to think. :)

Agreed, a lot of us who give input, and love AO are not even current AGD customers. I can give my input on what I would like to see from AGD, but chances are it is not inline with what there current customer base would like to see - and may in fact upset some of there current customer base if they were to make it.

[TheDuelist]

I just got back from the Grand Finale at Waynes World in Ocala, Florida this past weekend. There were a ton of mag shooters there and most of them I talked to had no idea about AO. Something definitely needs to be done to get the word out about AGD and the variety of new parts that are available.

When it comes to moving things like the reg your still maintaining the weight just moving it to a new location. How about milling on the reg itself instead of the standard cylinder design. Anything to change the look and the image more in line with what players are looking for. Working with PTP to develop and release a pneu fram would be great and would give the customers even more variety. Even the EBlade idea sounds good. The problem is that Tom has developed the VW Beetle of the paintball industry. Its almost too good to change and far too reliable.

[MindJob]

I still think figuring out a way to install an E-Blade on a mag would be the way to go. No legal issues, it's a proven frame, etc. I mean all you need is a new sear trip. I am sure one of the smart guys can figure out how to do it:)


Or, make a deal with the devil, let either Smart Parts, (or WDP, since they BOTH claim rights to the electro patent) make the electronics for the guns. Its called 'outsourcing', and if the smart people could work something it, could benafit more companies than just AGD

I know its blasphamy, but reality sucks.

[Mer]

Something definitely needs to be done to get the word out about AGD and the variety of new parts that are available.


The only way that's going to happen is advertising. If they don't have the money they need to raise it somehow.

We can spread the word all we want but ultimately they're going to have to be the ones to get the "big" word out.

I hope they'll pursue this.

Eric

[Muzikman]

Or, make a deal with the devil, let either Smart Parts, (or WDP, since they BOTH claim rights to the electro patent) make the electronics for the guns. Its called 'outsourcing', and if the smart people could work something it, could benafit more companies than just AGD

I know its blasphamy, but reality sucks.

Yeah, but the thing there is would they? Probably not cheap enough to make a mag affordable. Think about it. Smart Parts could make a frame for the Mag, there is not going to be a HUGE demand for them obviously so SP would have to charge a fortune for each one, mean while they will be selling their guns at a cheaper price.

If you were going to do anything like that, you would just pay royalty fees to Smart Parts or WDP and make your own electro frames. My idea is to be able to use an already existing frame that does not have any legal problems and make your gun work with it. I don't think it would be that hard.

[GT]

developed the VW Beetle of the paintball industry. Its almost too good to change and far too reliable.


dam good analogy, its simliar to the accord, miata and corvete. Each one of those companies piss there pants whenever they make a design change and hope there base returns to buy teh Updated and Upgraded versions.

All of these are dam good ideas!


they need to come out with something fast to compete in the tourney scene.

Emag software update anyone?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gibby

My point...get the shop owners involved and educated. Show more support for shop owners and don't leave them dry.


I couldnt agree more. Mentioned that to Tom many, many times.

Amen, gotta show the love to the dealers and undercutting there profits doesnt help.

gt

[JoshK]

There are so many good ideas...i agree the inline reg would be good...it would take off wieght, cause people add stuff there anyways... the being able to accept the eblade would be neat. but they definatly need to create more stuff, and get their name out on the walls of pro shops...ive NEVER seen a add for a mag...i saw three emags at my field once...but they are kids from here...and i accidently stumbled onto automags in the first place. A kid i went paintballing with had a minimag that i thought was awesome...but then he had a problem, and its gone through like 6 people since then...and none have fixed it. Stupid kids :mad: :mad: !...but anyways, new products, advertisment, and move reg.

[Blazestorm]

I think creating a new gun would be best.

The mag is awesome, but it's also almost 15 years old. It has quite a few flaws that are difficult to overcome.

[deadbox101]

as for the gun itselfs mags are one of the best. with the devil electro frame, and the hyper2 coming out thats covered. then theres the hAir or p-blade for the mech department and theres the agg-mag with the eblade aswell. If they massively advertise there gun and WARP they will see large sales increase. They need to show people the warp and explain to them its not just an extra pound. They also need to offer 12V mods stock for the warp and so on. To complement the gun they need to bring back a improved flatline make it lighter less shootdown, more user friendly whatever they need to do. As for advertising pay stores X amount of money when they sell AGD parts and they'll advertise for you, even recommend you buy AGD markers or parts. Finally AGD needs to create an insane hopper for the warp only, even if takes 1 or 2 years because then advertising will be in full affect. Why warp only? because this will make demand for other gun users to have one made for CF. AGD is doing a good job but they need to put out more advertising

[SpecialBlend2786]

emag software update would be awesome....I thought i remember miscue saying that he had something like that?

I think mags would be perfect markers if they were a little more efficient. I also would like to see a dedicated pump mag, one that could compete with phantoms and sovreigns. And be just as efficient

["the FitZ"]

advertising would be a great idea. We need to get rid of the "boat anchor" and "blender" reps that mags have acquired. But that would probably require AGD going up on the price of their stuff, and we really don't want that. They have been good enough to put out good stuff at a reasonable price unlike some companies who market a gun for 2 or 3 times what it costs to produce. But I would like to see the next version of the minimag to actually be mini. You could move the reg off the back and give it more expansion and move the breech back by about a 1/2 inch. Of course people w/ eggys would have to cock the gun or eat the hopper. Maybe then you could enlarge the dump chamber and lower the pressure. But the main thing I want to see is that freakin' hAir trigger. It better come out soon or I'll do something drastic, like buy a shocker.

[Athius]

I think creating a new gun would be best.

The mag is awesome, but it's also almost 15 years old. It has quite a few flaws that are difficult to overcome.

I think the same thing. I wanna see a new AGD marker and let it be electro.

[taz-nz]

1: Get rid of that dumb picture of the 400lb Tac-One on the front page of the website. :tard:
It makes the worst first impression of almost any paintball manufactures websites on the web. (Hell most of the website should be dumped, it's got to many dead ends and is layed out all wrong)

2: Make a good looking light weight marker Joe Newbie can buy of the shelf.
All the current range of AGD marker way be light, but the none of them look that way.
I look at every other marker on the market and think about what I want to add, I look at the current AGD range and think about what I want to take off, and that's the problem !!

They need to make a light weight ULE MAG using the:
- Wingless TAC-ONE body rail (the sydarm bodyrail)
- The ULE vertical feed Body
- X-Valve
- RT Pro Vertical ASA Adapter ,
- Include the hose and fitting to connect the vertical ASA to the valve
- Intelli frame with blade trigger (because that what the market wants)
- A simple stock barrel.
- Add Yellow to the range of colours.

Now things not to do to the maker: :nono:
- Add RT foregrips or sight rails or anything else that makes the marker look heavy.
- Miss match the colour of the different part, everything should be Anodized one colour.
- Put that 70s ray blaster looking barrel on it (go with something simple.)
- Put the ULE trigger kit on it, (to hard to setup for Joe Newbie)
- Put a bottom line on it (Just offer a factory kit)

3:Then advertise it's benefits:
- Light weight.
- Simple clean design.
- Anti-chop bolt.
- High rate of fire.
- Cocker barrel threads.
- Your choice of colours.

4: Take on the rest of the marker range.

- The Sydarm: :shooting:
-Is near perfect, give in an aluminum grip frame and it is.
-Put out a pump kit for it with a longer barrel for the pump nuts out there.

- The Tac-One:
- Make it a right feed ULE body with a built in top sight rail.
- Make it a single trigger frame.
- Bead blast it to give it a matt finish.
- Anodize it in a camo design all over.
- Make a optional foregrip along the lines of the old Pump kit handle.

- The RT ULE Custom:
- Dump it and replace it with a factory limited run model of the ULE MAG.
- With the factory fitted ULE trigger Kit
- Custom body milling
- Custom Anodizing (i.e flame jobs, blue - white ice fade, other fade and splash jobs)
- Your choice of vertical or warp body.

- The E-Mag/X-Mag:
- Sell the rest of them.
- Sort out the legal rubbish.
- Come up with something smaller & simpler
- Loss the battery pack at all costs.
- Possibly switch to a Desert Fox valve setup to allow for a sear tripper config.
- Give it a one piece body/rail with custom milling.
- Dump the interchangeable feed port module rubbish.


- Classic / Mini Mag:
- Clear out all stock of bodies and body rails, valve etc.
- Just keep replacement parts needed for repairs in stock only.

5: Dump the current website
- Get in a new web designer and start again.
- Make it clean and easy to get around.

6: Develop new products for the future:
- A new one piece body with integrated body rail and move the ball detent to the bottom of the breach to make for cleaner body lines. Making for a lighter cleaner looking marker.

- A HAIR-trigger style upgrade kit. and add it to the range as an upgrade option.

7: Stop showing every marker in their range with warp feed attached.
It's the ugliest piece of hardware in paintball. It makes people think a mag needs one to feed paint without chopping and it make the markers look heavy and unbalance.


Well thats' my $9.99

[DiSoRdeR]

I agree with every thing taz-nz has said, I would also like to see a new redesigned warpfeed. Would also like to see some warp slugs.

[B.A.M.]

I'd like to see them carve there own path. Come out with a new mech hybrid similar to the emag. Also upgrade the warp. :)

[WARPED1]

I want to see AGD go back to tournies, and pander to todays tournament players. Like the usual crazes like lp and things of that sort. They need to abandon the common mag look because to players who don't know the truth, "mags suck", people see the mag look and immediatly lable it as a sucky blender that just sux!

[frop]

To everyone saying to make a new electro, why not have AGD do something with the devilmag? I think AGD is doing just fine for the most part. They should bring together the dealers, revamp the website, & make some SLug designs of their own.

[Muzikman]

I think AGD is doing just fine for the most part.

If this was the case, i don't think Tom would be bailing.

[taz-nz]

Making another $1000+ tournament marker, that only 2% of players can afford is not going to keep them in business. They need a standard MAG to replace the classic MAG and they haven't had one in years.

It's no use them having the greatest set of parts if, a player has to buy them all separately and build the marker himself, at three time the cost of the standard marker, and that what they've got now.

They need to make a simple clean ULE-MAG for about $350-$400, to replace the Classic mag. It doesn't need a super light trigger pull or a $100 brand name barrel, it needs to look good and be affordable to the masses.

The RT ULE Custom is rubbish, it doesn't fit the bill at all, none of their current range does the way I see it. The Sydarm is cool but basically a collectors item. The E-mag is to expensive and the battery pack is plan ugly. The Tac-One was their best attempt at a replacement for the classic mag. But they got it wrong in my eyes, they marketed it toward scenario players which is a small group relative to the total market, and Tippmann has been doing in better and cheaper for longer.

They need something that Joe Newbie can pick up and put a hopper and a tank on to and go play, be it speedball, woods ball, or a 24 scenario. A tournament player wants the fastest, lightest, flashiest thing out there in general. A scenario player just wants something in all black with a single trigger. The rest of the players out there just what a reliable marker, that looks as good as it shoots, and is affordable. (massive generalizations all round)

They need a good flagship product too, an X-mag type limited production marker with custom milling and anodizing, ULE trigger kit, and a good barrel to match. It doesn't need to be an E-Mag but it probably wouldn't hurt. (that or a HAIR trigger setup)

They don't need to get away from the MAG look, they need to get back to it. Get rid of the rubbish they've got attached to their current range and get back to the super clean lines of the classic mag. Hell the 03 Shocker looks like a AUTOMAG so why can't a 04/05 MAG.

I can afford any marker currently on the market should I wish, but I wouldn't buy any of AGD current markers off the shelf. I could buy all the parts and build one up to replace my current classic mag. But it would cost me at least double to buy what I want as parts, as it would for a Tac-One.

I think AGD is a great company and I think the MAG's basic design is one of the best, if not the best designs in paintball, but their current range sucks and has for a long time. They've got everything they need to make a great marker and they haven't. :(

Show me a factory built ULE-MAG like the one described in my earlier post, at realistic price and you've got yourself a sale.

[Scott Hudnall]

A few ideas I would like to see happen:

1. create a range of body styles using the slug.

2. a drop-in "E-MAG II" kit, utilizing the Intelliframe (likely a modified Intelliframe). Heck, the frame could just as easily be a composite frame (like the stock frame), but 2 finger, having the Intelliframe style/feel. The boards and solenoids are readily available and it's very do-able.....look at the spyder-mag projects that have been done. Those internals cost next to nothing and are mass produced already. Use a standard 9v battery in the frame.

3. Re-design the WARP to more of a traditional hopper style, top of gun (don't throw stones at me for this), give the mass of players a real alternative to the HALO or Revvy or whatever else. A good fast hopper on a mag nearly eliminates chopping itself without the need for the level10 bolt (and don't shoot cheap seconds paint). The level 7 foamie bolt and use of the plastic nubin does GREAT in a mag with a fast hopper.

4. Let's finally get the hAIR trigger / PTP project done and out. It's a sound idea.



IF TK had never invented the AIR valve for the mag....and all the guns were basically the stacked bolt configuration......well if someone came out with the AIR valve in 2004 people would be raving about how it's the freakin' next evolution in paintball guns. It's a brilliant design. Stick with it. Just accessorize the rest of the gun....body....frame....warp....etc....and get it out in the public's hands through move aggressive marketing.

But, Dave....as you are aware....there's nothing wrong with staying a smaller company making awesome custom paintball guns....as long as the profit margins are there and sustainable.

[frop]

If this was the case, i don't think Tom would be bailing.

ME= brain fart :tard:

The rest of my post still stands, I think.

[Mer]

When you go to the custom ULE page there's a disclaimer right there telling you that your marker will not look like the one pictured as it's a prototype.

Come on! These have been out for how long now? Get some decent pictures (variety and larger) of a few assembled markers with the different colored bodies so people can see what one looks like.

No real $$$ expense there. I've asked this and have been told to go to AO for photos. What if I don't want to see one that someone else has customized? What if I want to see what I'll be buying. Not many people are confident to buy something sight unseen.

Someone in the marketing department has really been slacking. The nice banner ads of the ULE bodies and the girl on AO are a start but when you get to the site you can't even see a decent sized photo of a ULE body. You get a small photo of them all in a row and you can't even make out the details of the milling.

Plese take these comments AGD as constructive criticism. But please take them!!

How is someone supposed to become interested in a product withont even knowing what it will look like?

I'd even volunteer my services to take some decent photos. I'm right in Algonquin about 45 minutes away.

Think about it.

Eric

[JoshK]

I agree with 99% of these posts...if you cant do even 2/3rds of this stuff, atleast do the remaining 1/3rd!!! DO ANYTHING!

[Lurker27]

The problem is that AGD gave up on the tournament market, which is the Halo market, really. And then they blamed hype for doing it to them. They can keep the blow forward design, but it needs some tweaking.

Efficiency. Probably have to raise pressure and devolumize, but even the freestyle now gets better efficiency than a mag.

Move the reg. I know this will create some problems with on/off placement and such, but AGD needs to make a reg in the foregrip, for familiarity if nothing else.

No external hoses. They're hideous, and a gas through rail? Not hard at all to do.

Ditch level 10. You heard me, no one cares.

Get eyes. Proactive solution to chopping. Can queue shots.

Make it a spyder style sear tripper with ULT. Provide proprietary rechargable battery in the grip frame.

Make an attractive body. Anyone of Nicad's would work. Mags have never had any milling, so they haven't sold. People don't want to shoot an ugly gun, no matter what.

AGD's intrinsic problem has ALWAYS been that they are somehow "right" and everyone else is wrong.

And their markers have been getting hammered in sales for years because of it. Not only that, They've doggedly stuck by LX, the COPS of mags.

You guys know its true. A mag could be produced for $300 that would own most everything. Hell, give it a 15bps capped board that queues shots from the eyes, use those 16bps classic valves, give it some milling, foregrip, and a gasthrough rail, and watch it destroy WGP's Trilogy.

[JoshK]

There is a problem with no lvl 10...they are developing things like the hair trigger that arnt eyes compatable, and they will still have mech guns...they cant just get rid of lvl10...that is blasphemy.

[eric1337]

they need 2 make a spyder clone with a light trigger that new players will pick over spyders,tippys and clones thats basically it the greatest market for guns is new players that why kingman does so well u need 2 make an affordable gun period

[White_Noise]

i have to agree with rogue and say that i disagree with basically everything that taz-nz and most others have said.

taz said something about scenario not being a big part of the market? for every tourney player out there, there are atleast 10-15 rec/scenario ballers out there. tournament level paintball is the minority. it may get the most coverage, but it is a small percentage of the market. the tac one offers an upgrade path for those looking to step away from their spyders and tippmans.

and for the most part of what taz said in his previous post, he described what you can already purchase from agd, with the exception of having a different foregrip and different rail.

ball detent at the bottom of the breech? i can see some problem with this one already, especailly considering you dont want a modular rail/body, nor a modular breech.

from what everyone else has been saying, it seems like you want agd to become like every other marker on the market, and just offer new looks monthly instead of waiting off a bit for useful, worthwhile, and performance enhancing parts.

others of you just want a sear tripper, to you i say go buy a spyder then and stop trying to down grade the mag.

like i said before, if i were in charge of agd, id do exactly what tom was doing, putting up the bullet proof shields, and waiting for the smoke to clear before releasing anything new in terms of electros etc. tom knew what he was doing when he decided to wait this stuff out, and i hope that dave will too.

[Bear_Claw]

Although the high end markers are more presitges its the bread and butter mid range line that makes the money. As nice a Ford GT (New GT40) is its the Ford Mustag that will Make more money.

So in other words FIRST build on your Basic markers and put them on the store selfs THEN appeal to the Big spenders with a Pro gun that derives from that same gun.

You dont need a NEW desin to do this but rather just refine the one you have. A 68 Mag will sell if its priced right advertised right and is there to buy.

I may be new to AGDs markers but am a LONG time owner of Tippmanns a VERY succsess full company in a differant feild of the same game. They have a Marker for the masses and then have there upper class line. There failure is that there two guns are not very compatiable with each other MAGS could come up large here. Why not?

[Wc Keep]

taz a lot of what you said made sense, but was not right. the rt ule custom costs 350ish with a single trigger and can be got in all black. and last time i checked you could just toss a hopper and tank on that gun and go out and play. hmmmmmmmmm...........


the level 10 is a great invention, its actually better than eyes. you guys are over here saying eyes yet how many times do you see eyes get dirty?? the other day every gun at the field had dirty eye problems. and these problems made havoc for the guns. they can do a lvl 10 and an eye system but they have to figure out a way to make the gun more efficient.

[REDRT]

I think AGD has done a fine job to this point. There could be some improvement. With the passing of the Emag/Xmag We haven't had an electro marker for some time. Kids I see go nuts for the electro spyders at Wal-Mart and soon after that they find DM4, matrix, timmys . Kids like flash, bling and speed. Parents are spending big money for these kids. I think a new e-marker with a high rate of fire is going to sell big time. How ever a mechanical mag that is like an electro both in speed and light trigger pull has marit. I think that would be widely popular in the rec ball senerio games. Though I love the look of Mags, maybe a face lift is in order. Karta bodies are hot. I suggest Deadlywind and AGD hash things out. A little of both makes for a hell of a mag. Insted of piecing them together lets have a factory built one. Some wild colors and a new name like d-day mag or something. Kingman does it. The mag name is a paintball Icon, LEAVE THE NAME MAG. The Mag bad rap has got to go! Most kids don't know anything about mag til someone says, "there a blender" to them. People tried them years ago and they where blenders. Now they are flawless, but the people don't know this do to NO advertising. Here is the deal.

1. A faster new electro marker
2. A mechanical marker more like an electro
3. facelift: Factory wild bodies and colors example Deadlywind/AGD
4. Marketing big time

[Athius]

taz a lot of what you said made sense, but was not right. the rt ule custom costs 350ish with a single trigger and can be got in all black. and last time i checked you could just toss a hopper and tank on that gun and go out and play. hmmmmmmmmm...........


the level 10 is a great invention, its actually better than eyes. you guys are over here saying eyes yet how many times do you see eyes get dirty?? the other day every gun at the field had dirty eye problems. and these problems made havoc for the guns. they can do a lvl 10 and an eye system but they have to figure out a way to make the gun more efficient.


About eficiency i think that problem can be fixed by putting a hpr as a foregrip and in the AIR/X valve where the HPR is convert it into an LPR.

[Mike Smith]

Ok... It appears everyone agrees that the Mag is an excellent mech marker.

I want a Tac-1 in a woodland camo pattern with a matching hopper and tank.

{Tap... tap... tap... tap....}
How long do I have to wait?

Mike Smith

[Arson51]

i have to agree with rogue and say that i disagree with basically everything that taz-nz and most others have said.

taz said something about scenario not being a big part of the market? for every tourney player out there, there are atleast 10-15 rec/scenario ballers out there. tournament level paintball is the minority. it may get the most coverage, but it is a small percentage of the market. the tac one offers an upgrade path for those looking to step away from their spyders and tippmans.

from what everyone else has been saying, it seems like you want agd to become like every other marker on the market, and just offer new looks monthly instead of waiting off a bit for useful, worthwhile, and performance enhancing parts.

others of you just want a sear tripper, to you i say go buy a spyder then and stop trying to down grade the mag.

like i said before, if i were in charge of agd, id do exactly what tom was doing, putting up the bullet proof shields, and waiting for the smoke to clear before releasing anything new in terms of electros etc. tom knew what he was doing when he decided to wait this stuff out, and i hope that dave will too.

there are more recreational players out there that like the minimalistic, spartan look of milsim markers. thats a fact, go to d-day and you cant deny it. but these guys are out to have some fun, not be the top of the game. tournament ball on the other hand is fiercly competitive and players want the best to play their best. they are also willing to pay anything to ensure their chances of winning. the recreational players arent trying their hardest to win, so why would they need a top of the line gun? i think there isnt really a market for the tac one in scenario ballers.

the tournamet scene does get most of the glorious coverage. people see these winners and they want to be a bit like them, to try to win like them. ever baller that starts off and reads about the victories of dynasty or russian legion wants to know what equipment they use etc.

why do mags have to be diffrent? how does being diffrent help mags sell? this "diffrence" comes at a cost. the major gun styles in the market are generaly the same i think: they are beauitful, light, fast, very accurate/effecient, on yeah they are ELECTRONIC. these are the markers the best of the best use beacuse they are good guns. whats wrong with trying to be just as good as these markers? being diffrent dosent help sell guns.

oh and you know as well as i do that the emag is a hybrid electro, a fancy sear tripper with a switch to make it mech.

[taz-nz]

Ok maybe I shouldn't have written that second post at 1:00-2:00am last night. So let me try to make things a little clearer without it turning into a rant.

First off making major changes to the MAG design will cost money, big money & lots of time. All my suggestions are for quick easy things AGD could do to help things moving in the right direction.

Ok so I shouldn't have call the RT ULE Custom rubbish, but look at the picture of it on the website. RT ULE Custom (http://store.airgun.com/images/product/large/lg_387.jpg), :tard: Now look at look at what Smartparts offers 03 Shocker colours (http://www.smartparts.com/Products/images/prodShocker-colors.gif) :cool: Which would you choose, the marker with mismatched colours, and what the hell is that there for, or the super sleek, just pick a colour marker.

Here is another example of what's wrong with the RT ULT custom, Old shocker new shocker (http://www.smartparts.com/Products/images/prodShocker-sizeAd.gif) All smartparts did here was make their old marker look bad and the new one look good. They made the old maker black and boring, gave it a longer barrel a taller feed neck and a bigger HPA system, all just to make it look big and ugly and then put the new brightly coloured new model in front of it, with a shorter barrel and small HPA.
AGD could do the same thing put an old RT-MAG, with a high rise feed, in mismatched colours, a single trigger frame, a huge ugly barrel and a big old school Air-America HPA system. (the RT ULE Custom image is half way there) now put a blue ULE body mag with a wingless body rail and a nice 10" barrel and a intelliframe with blade trigger, a nice small 45/45 HPA system, all colour matched, in front of in it to show how far the mag has come. (You could go so far as to show paint dripping from the barrel of the RT.)

Smartparts do well because they know how to market their product. AGD need to make available a simple clean ULE-MAG ready to go (now I know I've said that before), in 4 or 5 different matching colours. Not a custom MAG you can only order off the website, where you have to choose which body, barrel, grip frame, trigger, valve, bolt, foregrip, bodyrail, you want and in which colour you want each one. People need to say "WOW, cool looking marker, I want the Red one". Not send a hour learning what each option offers over the other.

There is nothing wrong with RT ULE Custom as a marker, it just wrong for first and even second time buys. Most people here have probably owned 3-4 markers and know what they want out of there next one, but lots of options just confuses first time buyers. (Trust me I sell computers for a living. K.I.S.S is the golden rule with first time buyers) And that's the thing, AGD needs to target first or second time buyers with a good mid range marker.

The TAC-ONE isn't all bad, but it's got it purpose built into it looks & design. A first time buyer doesn't know they just want to play scenario, they may just play rec ball, or maybe get in the tournament scene. The TAC-ONE says I'm a scenario game marker all over it, It says it should never be seen on a speedball field or at a tournament, should the owner be shamed for life for been seen there with one. I think a single trigger and a pump kit style foregrip, would be more in keeping with the scenario game real gun look. Also for the price difference I think it needs something to make it stand out againest a Tippmann, and as it's all aluminum a matt finish camo anodizing job sound like the simplest option.

Moving the REG to the front of the marker.
Oh well here we goes. Anyone suggest this can't have ever looked at how the RT/Retro/X-Valve works. Page 4 of this PDF is a good place to start. (http://www.airgun.com/Images/rtblowup.pdf) The valve and the reg in the RT System are one unit they can't be separated.
Well you could but it would eliminates the very reason for the RT-Design, fast recharge.
Why? Because the gas would have to pass though the Reg seat, then travel all the along the body to the dump chamber and back along the body to the Reg piston to keep the RT System intact, It just wouldn't work well if at all, and it would cost a huge amount of money to design and would cost too much extra to make.

Changing to low pressure or changing the dump chamber in size.
The dump chamber size is probably no longer tuned to the design of the current valve/reg and bolt it's been used with. But changing it would mean starting all over again with the design of the marker, not something I think AGD can afford to do right now, along with the changes to the chamber there would be changes needed to the body, body rail, sear, and even possibly the grip frame. This makes a good long term goal, if they can improve gas efficiency, but it's not something they are likely to do anytime soon.

New Electronic mag
This is something I think AGD needs to help raise their profile, i.e. get back into the tournament scene in a big way. But I think it should be more of a long term goal, development would be costly and there are a dozen other good electronic marker out there to competie with for a relatively small part of the paintball dollar. (Flagship products get you noticed, mid range products make you money.) If they want to get a new E-MAG out quickly they need to follow the simplest route, copy someone elses idea and do it better. A Desert fox sytle valve (Check out the desert fox to see what I mean.) (http://www.icdpaintball.com/Support/Desertfox/schematic-fox.htm) and a sear tripper grip frame, would allow for a clean design with complete compatiblity with the currenty body, reg, and bolt, making for an easy upgrade path like the E-blade, and best of all no ugly battery pack. Anti-Chop eyes etc, seem pointless when AGD have probably the only anti-chop bolt on the market that works.

Custom or Limited run MAG
This is a must, it's easy to do and it works, dozens of paintball companies have done it and it's a proven winner. It also helps sell the standard version of the maker, Joe Newbie see the ultra cool milled body mag with the amazing anodizing job and dreams of owning one, but they can't afford it, so he buys the next best thing, the maker it's based on with nearly the same performance and feel.

One piece body/body rail and other big changes
A one piece body is probably a long term thing it but could have a lot of benefits, lighter overall marker, tighter tolerances for the sear alignment, and it makes a good time to give the marker a face lift at the same time. I'd personal like to see the ball detent moved to the bottom of the breach ProLite style, to give the marker a clean look at the same time. (after all who wants a bolt head sicking out the side of their marker)

Warp feed (This bit turned into an all out rant so I left it out.)
:cuss: Insert I don't like Warp feeds in a long winded way. :cuss:

Long term AGD probably needs the E-MAG II or the HAIR trigger to make a big splash again, but in the mean time they need to make the best of the great products they've got.
They can start by taking their web designer and marketing manager out back and shooting them both.
I think as "Lurker27" put it "AGD's intrinsic problem has ALWAYS been that they are somehow "right" and everyone else is wrong. " Could have some truth to it too.

I'm not a fan boy of any one marker or company. I've got a Tippmann Prolite, a Palmers Pursuit Shop Typhoon, a Eclipse Automag (along with pump kit and autoresponse trigger frame to go with it) a Rainmaker is my current tinker project, and I have a one of a kind Autococker-Sovereign crossbreed being custom built form scratch. The MAG has always has had one of the best designs as far as I'm concerned, and I'd hate for it to become just another piece of paintball history due to little more than what seems to me as bad marketing.

Hopefully I've got my ideas across more clearly this time. I'm not saying any type of paintball player is less important that any other, or that AGD doesn't need to change their design some, I'm just saying they need rethink the way the use what they've already got and how they market it first.

Lets just hope AGD takes on some of what everyone has said and comes up with the goods.

[JoshK]

WOW!!! i now need to read that all :(

[cledford]

Show me some statistics!

I keep hearing about how many scenario players there are out there - and have even been guilty of making similar statements myself - but what HARD DATA are we really making these assuptions based on? The funny thing is that EVERY paintball mag I see (except for crossfire) is nothing BUT tourny players and play. So what direction is paintball really moving?

-Calvin

[JoshK]

wow...took me 6 minutes...ya...a lot better stated this time.

[JoshK]

i posted a poll to see what kind of paintballers we need to majorly market to...even though its only on this forum...i guess it might help :) ....i wanna be a help

[Wc Keep]

scenario ballers may outnumber tourney players but the number of times they play and number of guns they buy is greatly lower than that of tourney players. a scenario baller plays once when there is a big game and plays with the same gun they did 3 years ago. a tourney players goes through 4 guns a year and plays everyweekend. i would rather market to the person buying 4 guns hoping that all 4 will be mags.

[JoshK]

well if you check out my thread...and vote, you can see tourny is stomping scenario

[Wc Keep]

True. However, most scenario players arent sponsored or require their gear at below cost. All the tourney players I know do.

Id rather sell 1 marker at full price to a scenario player, then 4 markers at $1 above cost to a tourney player who turns around and sells it online and ruins the retail market because it cost them very little to get.

well we can break this down a bit.....

the only tourney players that really require their markers at $1 above cost are the high up tourney players. im talking d1 nppl and a couple of the d2 teams, and the high up psp teams.and they are going direct to the gun maker. most local tourney players do not get their guns for that cheap. they usually go to their local shop sponsorand get their guns for their cost. so the gun manufacturer still makes the same profit.

[CoolHand]

well we can break this down a bit.....

the only tourney players that really require their markers at $1 above cost are the high up tourney players. im talking d1 nppl and a couple of the d2 teams, and the high up psp teams.and they are going direct to the gun maker. most local tourney players do not get their guns for that cheap. they usually go to their local shop sponsorand get their guns for their cost. so the gun manufacturer still makes the same profit.

Ah yes, the manufacturer made some money, but when they turn around and sell it for half of what they paid for it three months ago, the dealer takes it squarely in the . . . . never mind.

You want to sell a mag to the new guys (the guys who are considering a spyder or clone)?

Make the damned thing run off of CO2.

It won't shoot 26 bps then? Who cares. I know I sure don't.

If they could sell aluminum classics complete, and keep them in the $250 range, they could sell a ton of them.

Need to open the tolerances up a bit to make them cheaper? Do it.

Cockers run with tolerances so big you can stick your finger in there, there is no reason that you can't build a mag valve that can do the same thing.

Now, put the flamethrowers down, I don't mean go to uber crappy finshes, milled with a banana stuff. I mean, go from +-0.001" to +-0.007". You'd be amazed how much that would cut out of the cost (I'd estimate at least 15-20% over the long haul).

I've also never liked the external airlines, but the banjo bolt is not the solution. Maybe try thinking outside the box on this one?

But what do I know . . . . .

As always, your mileage may vary.

[CoolHand]

For once, I think we are in agreement :cheers:

:rofl: Yeah, you posted while I was typing my little tyraid up.

I saw your post, and I said to my self - "Well, I'll be damned . . . ."

These are strange days indeed.

Have a good holiday. :cheers:

[Arson51]

i think the best points were made by the self made buisnessmen here. if the new agd president, was cut from a simiilar cloth than the mag will definatly not become a footnote in paintball history. :clap:

[11_Mile_TMaster]

Ditch level 10. You heard me, no one cares.

Get eyes. Proactive solution to chopping. Can queue shots.

Make it a spyder style sear tripper with ULT. Provide proprietary rechargable battery in the grip frame.

Make an attractive body. Anyone of Nicad's would work. Mags have never had any milling, so they haven't sold. People don't want to shoot an ugly gun, no matter what.

AGD's intrinsic problem has ALWAYS been that they are somehow "right" and everyone else is wrong.

And their markers have been getting hammered in sales for years because of it. Not only that, They've doggedly stuck by LX, the COPS of mags.

You guys know its true. A mag could be produced for $300 that would own most everything. Hell, give it a 15bps capped board that queues shots from the eyes, use those 16bps classic valves, give it some milling, foregrip, and a gasthrough rail, and watch it destroy WGP's Trilogy.
-Level 10 is great, and works quite well. In my group of fellow paintballers that I go play with, 3 of us use Mags, and all 3 of us see the Level 10 as one of the main reasons we bought them.

-Your spyder syle sear tripper is the Hyperframe.

-Mags are far from 'ugly.' I personally prefer the look of my ULE mag to my old Cocker, wtherever it may be.

-AGD has a certain level of innovation before acceptance. Look at Nitro, More ergonomically correct grips, the force feed hopper. All were done by AGD and it took years for them to gain acceptance in the market.

-I'll restate. Level 10 works well. Comparing it to COPS is rather humorous and inaccurate.

-Uhh... You really have no clue how much it costs to actually PRODUCE things, let alone R&D, do you?

[WenULiVeUdiE]

-Your spyder syle sear tripper is the Hyperframe.

That would be great if it was still made. Yes there is the Devilmag, but that is pricey and doesnt seem like there will be as many as the hyperframe. ( Waiting for GA Devil to correct me)

Also, referring to the COPS/Level 10 statement above.
Many people want something that has no chance of ever chopping a ball. Yes, level 10 will not chop the most brittle paint when sut up properly. But some people dont want any chance of even weakening the paint. Honestly, I'd rather have a system like ACE where it doesnt bounce off, it stays off the ball.

[NewMagMan21]

You want to sell a mag to the new guys (the guys who are considering a spyder or clone)?

Make the damned thing run off of CO2

If they could sell aluminum classics complete, and keep them in the $250 range, they could sell a ton of them.

HERE! HERE! :hail:

Being new to Mags can be quite intimidating (new personal experience) First off being new and having to spend up towards $100-$200 for a nitro tank. Then you have to go through the process of buying an ASA, then hoses, and then a barrel then you have the very base classic mag that cost you about 400-500 bucks. The reason newbies dont like these marker is because spending that much money is a big comitment especially if you dont like the marker and you end up spending a lot more money to compete with "The Jones's" marker.
(THAT WAS NOT MY EXPERIENCE BY THE WAY, just clarifying that)
Anway Newbs like low costs (make CO2 markers)
they like simplicity (I.E. complete marker)
That would definately make some cash, and produce future sale because newbs wont grow up with the mags suck mentality.

[lather]

For the first time players:

Level 7 mag with bottomline and comes complete with 12-14 oz anti-siphon co2 tank.

First time gun owners need a tank to go with their gun, why not give them an anti-siphon tank with the level 7 mag as a complete package? If not antisiphon, perhaps an expansion chamber/foregrip. Either way is adequate for CO2.

And when its time to upgrade, instead of buying a different gun, which may not be a mag, they might be tempted to upgrade to HPA instead. Since the bottomline is already there, its an easy and tangible upgrade for first time buyers. (It may also ensure that they will keep the mag around a little longer as well.) :)

[cledford]

At one point Tom stated in the Tac1 thread he was working on a C02 drop in upgrade (?) for the Xvalve. I don't know what ever happened to it - but C02 was the number one feature that the scenario players identifed in their "wish list."

I wonder what ever happened with the C02 conversion and if it will ever be developed to production. I wonder how many other great ideas might have just walked out the door with Tom Kaye. If someone was smart they'd give Tom some time to relax - then pay him a nice fee for "consulting." He can develop the solutions to the problems without all of the other crap that comes along with running the business. He gets to do what he enjoys and someone else drives the business part - sounds like a good deal...

-Calvin

[felony]

The Banjo bolt was not as bad as people tried to make it out to be.

As for changing the valve to use an inline reg rather than the integrated reg really does not take much and it will make the valve smaller. It will still operate the exact same.

Since most of the people put a big foregrip on their guns anyway, why not fill that tube with a few parts and lighten up the valve.

now that is an awesome idea.

and also find a way to get like another few hundered shots outta setup.

dan

[felony]

That would be great if it was still made. Yes there is the Devilmag, but that is pricey and doesnt seem like there will be as many as the hyperframe. ( Waiting for GA Devil to correct me)

Also, referring to the COPS/Level 10 statement above.
Many people want something that has no chance of ever chopping a ball. Yes, level 10 will not chop the most brittle paint when sut up properly. But some people dont want any chance of even weakening the paint. Honestly, I'd rather have a system like ACE where it doesnt bounce off, it stays off the ball.

another good point, and more then likely its easier to do that AND save some gas mileage.. MORE EFFICIENCY!

dan

[alouba]

i think the separate companies like rouge, nicad, coolhand, should have links on the adg site. i think they should merge, and be kinda like smart parts page :eek:
whatever smart part is, they're nothing if not advertising experts

and the site needs a facelift and better layout, more, bigger, and better pics of mags

i think if the paintball population was more educated, more people would buy mags
i think if u looked at the total amount of people that frequent paintball forums and thus are at least somewhat educated you will find that there's a larger percentage then in the general paintball population

i dunno, better looking bodies will help too, but i don't see a way to lower price unless the small comapanies grows

merging with qloader also sounds like a good idea to me
the two companies sound similar to me, both inovative and have exellent customer support

[bryceeden]

OK, first and most importantly make a cheaper CO2 version.

I also think get back into the tourney circuit, but not the pros. What I would do is give permision to all of the six million all mag teams to put AGD on thier jerseys. It is a no expense venture that gets you publicity and most of them would be extreamly happy to do it. I would also give small sponsorships(like hats or t-shirts) and AGD banners to good local teams across the country and have them promote to thier local players let them test the markers and such because if a kid sees one in the hands of a pro he'll never meet then he thinks its cool but if the best team at a local tourney uses them and then lets him try one he'll buy one.

But the most important issue in my mind is make a CO2 compadable version in the $250 price range. I also agree matching colors would help alot.

[NewMagMan21]

I also think get back into the tourney circuit, but not the pros. What I would do is give permision to all of the six million all mag teams to put AGD on thier jerseys.

Why not Pros??? If anything they have almost the most influence on the tournement population. But thats a great Idea and it would be hella cheap

[drewrw]

It would be nice if this new "owner" would even post, wouldnt it? I see all these great suggestions and whose to say this dude is even reading them. It kinda pisses me off!! :mad:

[Southparkrocks]

How about some advertising? How many times have you seen an automag ad in a magazine? Just put a pic of a karta mag, or daralla mag on the back on a mag.

[Muzikman]

It would be nice if this new "owner" would even post, wouldnt it? I see all these great suggestions and whose to say this dude is even reading them. It kinda pisses me off!! :mad:


Don't you think that he has more pressing issues dealing with banks and getting settled in as the owner of AGD. I don't think reading and posting on AO is high on his list just yet. And if you read the welcome thread, you will see that Zupe replied atleast 3 times.

[spasticsquirrel]

Make paintballs with ice cream flavors so when you get hit in the mouth, it tastes good.

oh yeah, no white fill.

[Lohman446]

I want to see a single tube marker with teh profile of a mag, ACE, insanely quick rates of fire, maybe even a cheater board.

Oh wait, I have one, its my Shocker

[bryceeden]

undefinedundefinedundefined
Why not Pros??? If anything they have almost the most influence on the tournement population. But thats a great Idea and it would be hella cheap


Pros are too expensive to start with, $20,000 a year is alot of money where as shirts can be done for as little as $1.00 each.

[bleachit]

You want to sell a mag to the new guys (the guys who are considering a spyder or clone)?

Make the damned thing run off of CO2.

It won't shoot 26 bps then? Who cares. I know I sure don't.


CO2 and more efficient. A palmer Stabilizer reg does great things for a classic mag on CO2, but a cheaper stock alternative that keeps the valve from freezing in all weather, or make it run as good as a spyder or tippy in most weather without expensive extra parts would be great. The biggest reason I got rid of my classic mag was it was too expensive to upgrade it to what I wanted it to be, and it was almost useless to me without the palmer stabilizer.

what am I using as my primary marker now? the 5 year old stock tippy model 98, runs great on CO2 in all weather, is very simple to operate, and will shoot through anything.

[Trunnion]

I agree with whoever said that educating the store owner is a good course of action. I'm far from being a 'mag expert, but I'm the only person at my shop (including the owners) who knows anything about mags. I've sold 3 in the past year, which I think is a decent accomplishment for someone who works one day a week and deals primarily with 12-17 year old kids. No one else has sold any, simply because they don't know enough about them. All the store owner can really say is "yeah, they're good markers." But he can't elaborate. Include in this a demonstation marker of some sort (even if the owner has to pay for it) and I think it could make a big difference. I use my Emag and my RT w/ ULT to demonstrate to customers, and most walk away impressed. They may not buy the marker in the next week, or even the next month, but they will consider it and that's important. In that case you have a CHANCE at selling one, whereas before demonstrating the product, they had never heard of the mag. The mags at my field also have a pretty good amount of respect, even from players with '03 Shockers, Timmys, Angels, etc. They may never own one, but they don't trash talk them. I think this also stems from demonstrations, as I've rather proudly shown many of them that my Emag is just as formidable as their markers. This helps combat the "mag's are blenders" stigma so well that it no longer makes an appearance at my field. A little explanation, and most players realize they don't chop any more often than any other marker without an antichop system.

[spasticsquirrel]

they could always do that tippmann underwater thing, i forgot whats it called, but it uses liquid c02 to shoot. It works because the liquid *pops* into gas as the pressure goes down. I read it somewhere on docs machine website.

[Muzikman]

Some guns can run off liquid CO2, a mag is not one of them. The orings do not like it at all.

[deadbox101]

the best idea in here is too make a poorman's mag. It would boost AGD sales incredibly, so ill just take all the ideas and list them for what Joe Noobie likes.

get rid of the x valve Joe Noobie doesnt need to shoot 26 bps and doesnt want to buy HPA
Keep the ULE bodies and advertise as superlight
keep the lvl 10 Joe Noobie doesnt need a blender
add your choice of a regular .45 or y grip and advertise as Egronomically correct
add a gas through foregrip with bottom line and asa installed and make the air go through the rail
losen up on tolerances, like its been stated that dont need to be perfect on a poorman's mag

sell the package for lower then 300 with your choice of colors. Then AGD has money to innovate and create upgrades for the anyone who joins the mag world.

[robb2269]

WGP is doing the same thing now with a entry level gun that AGD should do get the bignner market. Get extra cash for and the name out there again. Bring the X-MAG back a differant battery choice. Host more tournaments like Shatner bowl all over the states. Then a couple of teams with E-MAG's then H-Air MAGS. The design's that came in a couple a month's ago were great there are alot of great idea's here too. The MAG is not dead lots of ways to go. :hail: :dance: :dance: :dance:

[maglover728]

Either way, if you want to sell stuff, people have to know you exist. Advertising is not a new thing to free enterprise. DYE, Proto, Smart Parts, WGP, Empire and all other big names have people advertising for them everywhere, all the time. Most of the people doing this are doing it for free and don't even know about it. These companies have their name on the front of everything they sell so whenever the owner uses/wears their new purchase, that company's name is getting flashed around and talked about, or at least being seen.
All Automags share common lines and are very easy to identify, but in 2004 alone I would bet that I have had 30 people at the field I play at come up to me and ask what kind of marker I was using. And then, about 10 of them would reply with something like, “Are they still around?” I believe this is because:

1. I'm on the West Coast and AGD seems to be more popular on the East.
2. Although AGD has made many vast improvements to their product line in recent years, I have never seen good picture advertisement for their markers in the pages of APG or any magazine of the like. Kids growing into the sport see Spyders, Mongooses and Tippmanns in the bright multi-page adds, but never the good, old, reliable, simple to maintain, easy to upgrade, great tech support backed 68 Classic.
3. Even if a young prospective buyer saw said mag, why would he purchase it over the multi-color annoed, electric framed, super whamidine whobadoose right next to it in the add? Hell, the other gun even comes with a barrel.
3. AGD now uses aluminum for their ULE bodies. Give the kids what they want, a pretty gun!
4. The online store at airgun.com shows sweatshirts and hats with the old AGD lion logo on them but I can not find them in the price and order listings. The only hats that are for sale there are, in my opinion, ugly as hell, and they all have Emags on them. Many people out there loyal to AGD are still sporting RT’s, 68’s, and older models. Put those on hats also and I’d buy one in a hurry! I want to advertise for you guys but I am unable to. Hell, an AGD sticker on the back window of my truck would look great next to the DYE one, but where can I buy one? I am praying that my wife bought me an AGD jersey from the web site for Christmas! That way I will be able to do something for you guys.
Finally, just as a thought, if the general newbie paintball populous does not know about the the reliability, the simplicity, the lack of need for a second reg, the lack of need for a variable output tank, and about all the other traits of Mags that will save them money in the long run, then the looks of other markers will win out.

[robb2269]

I agree with maglover798. You need more jersey's, stickers, gloves, mask's, pants and plaster your name on it. I wear alot of Dye gear because its good but I would be proud to wear from the company I use.

[maglover728]

Exactly, there are tank covers advertised on their web site also, hell ya I want one! But where are they, I can't find a stock number for them that would enable me to order one! I volunteer to be your personal walking/driving billboard at my expense. Just give me the means!

[Battlewear]

Hey Guys...

I only became a mag owner about 6 months ago (maybe a little more).. Any ways, I love my mag! To be honest I have wanted a mag for YEARS! (atleast 10!! I use to play with a Carter Cocker years ago!!)... Any ways, I think this is a really good thread but I noticed that there seems to be some things missing (idea wise)..

Here is how I see it..

First off, lets talk about how to make coin.. We all know that AGD is in the business to make money, and who shouldnt!! AGD makes markers and some freaking fine ones at that! But why are they lagging behind? Well I am sure we all know... Their Electro's being no longer produced in any mas Quantities (at least from what I can tell) and the markers they do have are pretty expensive for their entry level marker in comparison to what is out there..

So how does AGD go about changing this? Well first, need to figure out if they want to try to get lots of markers out there or not? Not as simple as it sounds, if you look at a company like Kingman, they have tons of Spyders out there but they too have a reputation as CR*P (I personally like them, dont have a problem with them).. So, do you lower quality to make them cheaper? I honestly pray AGD NEVER EVER does that... Quality has always been so important to AGD.. So, the next is mass production? Maybe AGD needs to look at MASS production to lower the cost so that they can flood the market with a cheaper mag that can be purchased by the first time player.. Do this and you get word out about the company and then you can bring out more expensive markers..

But this doesnt solve the cash problem now does it? Because it is going to take a CRAP LOAD of coin to get this going and it really doesnt ensure that the company is going to come ahead..

One down side I see to the whole Target Scenario players dirrection is this.. Those guys normally buy 1 marker and stick with them for years.. Most of those players either already have something, or they are looking for something a little more Authentic looking? I spoke with a bunch of the guys up here about this, they all said they would go for something like a A5 or one of those Military look alikes if they would buy a new one, I asked them about the TacOne and they said it is just a black marker, not really a scenario marker.. Hmmm

So, still not hitting the mark making money..

HEY WAIT.. Now maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that maybe we are not looking at the big picture and thinking out side the box...

What is the BIGGEST money part of our game? Not markers for sure!! Paint maybe??? YOU BETCHA! Now, please forgive me if I am wrong.. But didnt Tom dable in paint some time ago for the military and holywood? I would say that AGD needs to seriously look at this idea, it is a way to start making some money.. There is enough AGD fans out there that would buy the paint I am sure!! AGD Lions Pride paint :) Would be a good way to make money.. Would be another chance to get NON AGD players bringing money into the company, would also get the name out there (seems like free advertising to me!!).. So would it happen? I dont know, I dont know enough about the back ground of AGD on what is going on behind the scene's and such.. Just seems like a logical step..

Now if they did get into paint, the paint sales could help off set the costs or provide a way to subsidise selling markers at a lower price.. Gets the AGD name out there further with out pushing them into the ground..

Ok, so we have talked about money.. How about Image...

Recently I was at my local shop.. I am a very LOYAL customer type, when I get good service from some where I keep coming back, but the sad part is, the shop doesnt carry ANY AGD product!! I am about 1 of 3 other players in the area who really stand out as MAG owners and 1 of them, well I am not so sure, he really doesnt bring it out much any more..

Any ways, when I was at the shop the owner said " Hey I hear AGD has folded"... I said no.. Tom K just retired and Dave Z have taken over.. He said Yea, and now they are closing the doors.. I said that makes NO SENSE, why would some one take over AGD to close it? Its not like they are fighting hard for markey share at this time.. I tried to explain that sure, Tom may of retired and AGD has not really been at the top of the scene the last few years but things are looking up (ok, I am optimistic at times LOL)..

So now it is up to AGD to get out there and talk to the stores and dealers and such... Make them understand what is happening, where the company is going and what they want to do with that person / company.. If AGD wants to really turn things around this is what they have to do to make the first step.. If you dont have the dealers / stores, you have a almost impossible time getting those new owners!

Ok, as for Mr. Z, I do understand that I am sure this is an incredibly busy time for him, I can not IMAGINE the amount of work he must be doing.. Honestly, Mr. Z, you have my Admiration (not only that but I am jealous you get to own something so cool as AGD!) LOL :) BUt seriously! Admiration for the hard work you must be doing.. Now being that said, I really do hope Mr. Z will become apart of the community just like Tom was/is!! It is that type of connection to the people that keeps AGD from going under.. You have loyal fans, people who will sweat blood for AGD if they have to, and you know, some of them dont even work for AGD! Please remember them all and the little people too.. Show us the love :) I believe that as long as Mr Z keeps in touch with AO there is no doubt that he can make this company continue to move forward.. Yes I believe this company has never stopped moving forward, it has just slowed down a lot from where it was some years ago..

Now.. other little things to look at.. Idea's..

I love the idea of the EBlade for the mag.. Not that I am a big fan of the EBlade or any thing, but if AGD (or a dealer) was able to develope something that would work a simple mod like this would help bring a lot of the older classic mags out of the closet.. 16 bps a nothing to laugh at, and you know what, a classic mag pushing the limits would be right at home in a Rookie tourney!!!

As I said above I agree that AGD should try to produce a entry mag, I think $450 US for a entry is to much (sorry, I just do).. Maybe it is because I am in Canada and that mag now jumps to $550.00 for entry? I can buy a Spyder Electro for that price.. Aim that price in around $200 to $300.00 (ok pushing the edge) and you will start to get noticed, but this HAS!! to be a marker that you just slap a bottle & hopper on it and go, if you cant do that then you will never be able to make a entry marker..

Lastly, here is an idea I came up with.. I am not sure how this would go over, but here it is, Tuna, Rogue, maybe you guys will like this :)

- AGD needs to work with guys like these (Tuna, Rogue, Devil, etc)... These guys are helping to push the envelope of the mag, but they need AGD's help to really make it worth something.. So, lets save AGD some R&D money, and allow the Dealers do it, but here is how it works.. Say a Dealer (lets call him Dealer A) produces some kind of cool mod (a trigger frame (and I have a cool idea about that too)) that can accept all the goodies of a major manufactured E-guts and slap them in, instant electro right? OK COOL! People love the idea and buy lots on AO.. But now AGD is trying to get out in the market more.. So after the dealer hits a special number of sales (say 100,000) AGD accepts to take the product on line and run with it.. Sure the Dealer continues to get a peice of the pie, wouldnt be fair if they didnt!! but now AGD takes over production and sales, by doing so they can now pass this product around to all the stores that are still selling for them, sales goes up, the dealer makes more and AGD makes more with out having the huge outlay of cash to develope said product.. Now! One thing to say, the Dealer would have to assume some responsiblity with this, and this is what makes the Manufacturing part troublesome.. IF a problem occurs with the item then the dealer has to be ready to step up or has to have some kind of deal with AGD that if a problem does occur later on that they will accept it.. I see this as a way to have awesome products that people like ROGUE and TUNA and DEVIL are making and getting them out there in a much LARGER mass form.. Do that and BANG you have a piece of the markey share..

Ok, I know some of what I said is a bit wacked.. I'm tired, and rambling, but take it with a grain of salt here.. We all want to see AGD rock on! We all wish Tom the best and Dave too! The best thing we can do as fans of AGD is to continue what WE are doing, give them feed back (good and bad), keep telling people about this amazing product and just go out and have fun with our mags!!

Oh and another paint name Pheonix Paint, because it is AGD RISING FROM the ashes of the industry ;) LOL Oh and I loved the idea of TITAN (new marker named for Tom!) but could also do TITAN PAINT (big bore paint).

Hope you didnt fall asleep reading my post.. but I had to post here :)

CHUFF CHUFF! ;)
VIVA LA MAG!

[alouba]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:

most excellent post

[tyrion2323]

The problem is that AGD gave up on the tournament market, which is the Halo market, really. And then they blamed hype for doing it to them. They can keep the blow forward design, but it needs some tweaking.

Efficiency. Probably have to raise pressure and devolumize, but even the freestyle now gets better efficiency than a mag.

Move the reg. I know this will create some problems with on/off placement and such, but AGD needs to make a reg in the foregrip, for familiarity if nothing else.

No external hoses. They're hideous, and a gas through rail? Not hard at all to do.

Ditch level 10. You heard me, no one cares.

Get eyes. Proactive solution to chopping. Can queue shots.

Make it a spyder style sear tripper with ULT. Provide proprietary rechargable battery in the grip frame.

Make an attractive body. Anyone of Nicad's would work. Mags have never had any milling, so they haven't sold. People don't want to shoot an ugly gun, no matter what.

AGD's intrinsic problem has ALWAYS been that they are somehow "right" and everyone else is wrong.

And their markers have been getting hammered in sales for years because of it. Not only that, They've doggedly stuck by LX, the COPS of mags.

You guys know its true. A mag could be produced for $300 that would own most everything. Hell, give it a 15bps capped board that queues shots from the eyes, use those 16bps classic valves, give it some milling, foregrip, and a gasthrough rail, and watch it destroy WGP's Trilogy.

I agree 100% with Lurker on this post. He brings up so many great points, but the most important of which is the attitude which many AGD-Shooters cop: the attitude that somehow AOers are significantly more englightened and intelligent when it comes to just about everything paintball. Now, I love 'mags; however, they just don't cut it in comparison to today's super markers. A timmy, matrix, viking, borg, etc. all shoot faster and more efficiently than any 'mag. I had a mech mag for three years, and watching the mag starve on a tank at 800psi was just sad.

Here's my dream for the new AGD Marker:

AGD Panther
- Lightweight, aluminum body (fully enclosing) with integrated rail and air channel
- In-line regulator
- Redesigned X-Valve, lightweight normal bolt
- Electronic functioning (ACE, uncapped board, fast solenoid, etc)
- Choice between 45 and vert grip frame (like Angels)
- Rail ASA with on/off

Price it at $650 stock with a selection of different colors. sponsor a few teams. Try working for it, and see how successful you become!

The key isn't to remove your business from mainstream-paintball and grumble about it. It's to build the best product out there and market the heck out of it. Despite what many people here think, the 'mag is NOT the best marker out there.

[Hellfire Angels 05]

the thing i hate about alot of people who dont knoq much about mags is that they come up to you at the field and they ask you questions about your gun they get to the question "is your gun electronic" and if you have a mech mag you respond " no, but it can keep up with the electros" and you know what their arrogance cant exceed them and they think "yeah right or whatever." thats what i cant stand about newbs or electro kids they think just because they have a electronic gun they can shoot faster when in reality they can barely shoot over 20 bps so i think AGD needs to advertise their products, once they do that people will have more mags and the arrogant electros(as i like to call them) will realize yeah that mech gun can keep up with me and newbs will say its an easy gun to maintain because i dont have to worry about electronics/battery and it has about three basic components!!

As for upgrading the gun keep the same design try to make the gun lighter by getting better materials and intergrate the macro into the rail and but it through the inline and also

KEEP THE MECHANICAL AUTOMAG ALIVE!!!

[B.A.M.]

I dont know about you but all the electro kids at my field are like amazed at my gun. They love shooting it with the ULT

[tdogreb]

I've noticed on this thread everyone talking about,scenario or tourney players, but this is what I see. At the fields around here we play speedball, tournament players play speedball, when I go to a scenario game I am surrounded by people that play speedball at local fields unless they are at a scenario game. Paintball today at legal fields is speedball. Most people use the same marker at scenarios and tourneys that they use at thier local field.
AGD needs a cheap entry level marker, with electric frame, that can be upgraded as the player grows with the game.
One more thought, new body style every year, just like the other manufacturers, same old marker, new body, keeps people looking at the product.

[JRingold]

I would like to see AGD become more visible as an industry leading organization. The paintball industry is missing a clear visionary company, currently. Sure there is a leading company in sales and name recognition, but I don't think they are visionary. It seems that most of the companies are all about profit and don't care what it takes to get that. AGD has never seemed like that company to me.

If AGD turned the industry around and started focusing on the people that played paintball, that would be a huge step. AGD should take a front spot in showing that the company is more about helping people have fun playing paintball than in making profit. I think that if you succeed at the first, you will succeed at the second.

AGD needs to get involved with additional players groups that show the brighter side of paintball and distance themselves from the attitude of other companies that are focusing on the tournament players. Most of the paintball players in N. America and in the world will not be able to play successfully at a tournament level for a sustained time. Focusing on the recreational player may not be "sexy", but it has a longer life, at least in my opinion. They need to work on growing the base of people who are playing paintball; help teach younger paintball players the proper way, place and time to play paintball. They need to help with providing experts to speak with political figures to show that paintball as an industry isn't about violence and vandalism, but is about playing a sport.

They also need to distance themselves from companies such as Evil. I single them out because of the slogan: "...we are freaking evil. We really don't give a crap what other people think or what they do, we will always take it one step further then they ever will. And yes those are my balls on your face." In doing this, they are advancing the major problem outsiders have with paintball. Outsiders see the sport as an act of violence. We never see the stories about how paintball is good for people, like we do with other sports. We only see the stories about how someone was injured in an accident. We see stories about stupid people out vandalizing neighborhoods and performing drive-by's. AGD needs to try to cast a bright light onto paintball and show that they are leading the way against this behavior. Without someone leading the way, these behaviors will lead to additional paintball bans.

I say that AGD needs to do this, because it's time for them to make a paradigm shift in the industry. If AGD works with the NPPL and other organizations, they are in a perfect position. AGD doesn't have many of the image problems that other paintball companies currently carry. They have never tried to make a product that would enable someone to cheat, or beat the ref or "bend" a rule. They are the perfect candidate to turn the paintball market in their favor.

Sorry for the long post, did I throw down the gantlet?

Then again, they cold do nothing and see if someone else will step up; probably Tippmann.

As far as products go...Yup, they need an entry level marker. Yup it needs to be able to run on CO2. The biggest compliment I ever got on my Mag happens all the time, "I didn't know 'Mags could do that." If the rec. ball players don't know what they can do, to whom do you sell?

[Chronobreak]

unles zupe has significantly diff views on the electro craze than toms i wouldnt expect seeing an electro option from agd soon.

for those of you that want a REAL e-frame made for shooting fast and doing things RIGHT talk to pbx ronin who is considering it and they aleady have lisinces etc etc. problem solved ;)


as i think wckeep said in another thread it would cost about the same to make a classic as well as an x-valve

releasing classics and theri bad stigma at this point would do more damage than good.

an electro that maxed at 15 with shootdown over liek 13.. :spit_take

x-valve is what we got and its here to stay. its a GREAT PRICE ex since classics were the price of a new ule just 2-3 years ago. :clap:

uhm just some things i wanted to say as i skimmed the thread. alot of good info and ideas here


we really need to get the POSITIVE mag image back and out there.

:back to chanting for me...

WE WANT WARP SLUGS WE WANT WARP SLUGS to the rythm of the banana :dance:

[silent running]

I have played with automags for a long time, I think they are the best marker out there. Obvously other people do not think so. Either I am wrong or it is a question of perception or the lack of it. Somewhere AGD has failed to market it products, yes there is some fine tuning that can be done, but over all really good stuff. I think a lot of the people in the business are like a cliche, kind of like when you go to a tournement and all the breaks go in favor of certain people, you get their cheating on tape, the ref's pay special interest in you, while the other guys can do what they want. That kind of thing comes from the top down, the way they do business and this has happened more time then I care to talk about. I think in the same cut throat way AGD has been cut out of the inner circle. People who do the magazines are not above taking perks, sure. The way people in the the industry look at it, there is the pie and they want it all and AGD has and is a threat. What I beleive is the same dirty way the whole tournement thing has been run for years, it the same way business has been run, because in the end they are one in the same ( I am not talking about the patent issues). I believe Tom Kaye is not that type of person and has alienated himself from the rest of the industry. Mainly because he does not want to roll in the same filth. I think it has been a separation that has been going on for a while. I do not want to tell anybody what to think and I may be off, but these are my thoughts.

[UpliftedApe]

I like most of you hear read Tom's opinion on the modern paintball industry we have these days. His opinion on what passes for innovation in paintball is of course understandable, after all milling a new body every year does NOT equal performance. The main problem seems to be the image of the mag as an outdated high pressure paint shredding gas hog. Everyone wants "air effcient low pressure markers". Nothing else to it the automag is the only gun that fires BETTER at high pressures. When I got my first automag in 99 every proshop in my city carried parts, "upgrades" body kits barrels everything, now you are lucky if your proshop has a twist lock cut barrel. In 6 years the mag has totally faded from most of the scene. Almost all of us have to order parts from the few online people who still carry parts or from AGD it's self. Whats sad is that most tourney people I run into who are usually field ref's have gained more and mroe respect for the mag simply because of me and my friends pushing and playing with them. We go out there every weekend with our E-mags, or ULT equipped ULE's and just own the competition with not a single barrel break. I have convinced several dozen people to buy mags, I push the holy word of the mag at every field I play at in my city. We all know the truth and it hurts to just admit it. Tom fell behind the curve in innovation. we know 26cps is NOT the fast recharge in the universe, everyone has seen everything new out shoot a mag, the standard is becoming 30bps and all ready that is being pushed. We all know here that is nearly impossible for a regular person to come close to pulling the trigger 30 bps, but it's the vids every where, it's the refs and the tourneys players with their, angles vikings, etc , etc.. laying waste to cases of paint in mere seconds infront of 150 rec ballers and noob's who don't know better.

Most of us here know tourney, or what I like to call pro rec ballers alike, that the kids and ex military, and police people love strapping on abunch of plastic or aluminum parts on to a tippman and making an m16, or anm4 or what have you. But we all know also that bar none a stainless steel classic mag will a) not only shoot a tippman but is 100 times more durable b) out shot the tippman any day of the week, even with their response triggers c) are still lighter. But do you ever here a ref or anybody else in the game suggest an automag over a tippman for a 1st gun? I mean finally now a new Automag is freaking dirt cheap for an intro paintball gun, yet no one in my town carries and single one on their walls. They are super light and put every autococker to shame, but again do we see mags? Tom unlike bud orr knew how to build a gun, Bud unlike tom knew how to push his junk heap to the top and keep it there.

A number of us own E-mags and X-mags we want them to be recognized for their tourney worth even now, but do we get respect at fields? Frequently it's just another our autocockers are better our timmies are better and on and on. Lets just admit something now, they are! I live in Texas and down here if you had a RT mag you were allowed to jack that pressure up and use the in built RT, you know why? Because we paid for the privilage by owning Airgun designs products. Now not evrn that counts for anything on the field, but lately as the next generation of players who didn't grow up in the autococker/ automag war become mroe open minded to a fast mech and a sleek low design that only tom could have originally come up with emerge I find they are not automatically hateful of a mag, especially when the only thing they have seen from them is a lvl 10 rocking everyones world over and over again. Tom created the gun we love and trust, but Tom also sank his boat by not moving away from high pressures and mechanical dependency. The x-mag should have come out with no selector switch, no firing stud, and smaller lighter solenoid that could handle the considerably high ROF tourney people demand. We all know this, but we need to say these things, we know they come out with solid good products ther eis no reason to put in tons of redundancy, it just makes it seem prone to breaking to most people. The warp feed came out before the Halo, or the Evolution were a glint in peoples eyes, but again it only went so far and then it too didn't keep up with the times. We all know know this it's just hard to admit to each other, we are part of the small niche of tough durable indestructable guns, probably the last the painball world will see, until the company puts in some serious R&B and pushes both rec and scenario, tourney player and newbie.

The reguilatro design is beautiful there is no simpler or more direct pball marker in existance to my knowledge, however would it have been such a hard thing to make a bolt-less gun, with some sort of orficing diaphram or something that nature, potentially unlimted rat of fire, or have a 30bps warp built straight in the main body chamber, much like Tippmann finally did with their A5? Even with the development of the ULT people want the RT feature, I see so many flatlined RT A5's now it's rediculous. When I played "outlaw" ball in a creek bed nothing but RT tippman, the closest thing you have to Full Auto, unless you play with an Automag Rt on 1200PSI ;) come on you ALL know what I mean. This si the failing of Airgun designs, they went from defining speed ball and woods ball, defining the sport at the fore front, developing the trends everyone else would follow, to the johnny come latelys.

For those too young to know what is what watch the tourney's from ESPN, For those who just don't remember same goes from you. All you see on one team is mags and the other autocockers, but when you watch commercials even then all you here is cocker cocker, but if you watch who gets owned namely guys like bob palmer and various other "big names" you will notice it is always at the end of an automag! Watch the vids and remeber whether you did speed ball or woods ball the Automag was the Best at both hands DOWN! Just look at the size of those old cockers they are ENORMOUS, but the mag is just as sleak and beautiful as always.


http://www.webdogradio.us/video/oldschool


The guys who run the show now need to higher some seriously innovative people, and throw money at R&D and more then anything market the mag AGAIN,show everyone you don't need a piece of crap electronic eye to make a ball not break in the breach, I beeseech the people of Airgun designs innovate! I am willing, I am physicst with a simple lab job and not much going on I will volunteer 8 months of my life before grad school to make the people of this forum's dreams a reality!

I appologize for any poor grammar and spelling, I am tired, extremely frustrated, and I just don't feel like error correcting this in micrsoft office right now.

Enjoy my 2cents!

[jewie27]

I would really like AGD to keep working on better mechanical markers. Keep the idea of the X-Valve and they need to make a very light pnuematic trigger. Whatever they can do to make something like the HAir trigger; it needs to be done.

It would be great for AGD to keep working on new loading systems just like the Warp Feed. It would be great to see a new version of the Warp, which would be smaller in size and a lot lighter weight.

[jewie27]

Eventhough I know that AGD is pushing into the scenario market, I really believe that they should stay in the tournament world also. If they push their marketing the right way and create
new products...

It's been about 4 or 5 years since I have actually seen an AGD advertisement in a magazine. It's been about 4 years since I've seen new Mags being sold in proshops. It's so so sad to see
Mags in Los Angeles disappear. Nearly everyone and their mom shoots a DM4 or 'Cocker.. I'm usutally the only Mag owner on the field.

When they stopped sponsoring teams, that's when AGD kinda went downhill. I mean not in quality though.

I will always be loyal to AGD because I have seen how well the design team can work. I was here to beta test the Level 10 bolt, which really changed Mags forever.

I believe AGD was the FIRST to create a true anti-chop bolt. NOT WDP. (COPS).


They need to carry forward the momentum they have built up over the past 15 years. It just seems as though they are slowing down.........

[cockerkiller68]

I would really like AGD to make some more tourney level gats!! I would have bought one from AGD instead of my DM4...if they could match performance, and be tourney legal. Side note: The X-mag is the most beautiful gat I've ever seen.

More like that, higherhigherhigher

Keep working in the scenerio gig too, just don't drop your innovation and performance.

[REDRT]

The biggest gripe I got is AGD turned their back on tournament players and the lack of resources allocated to the development of equipment in that field.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

I am a new customer i just ordered a tac one today 2/28/25 why not the electo's or even a angel? i need something rugged as few moveing parts as possible. i want the gun to be lite i want to play. not work on my gun i want a small profile as possible. no glam no show i need my marker to shoot consitent and shoot as far as possible. i own a bm2k i love it but i was tired off adjusting this and that. lpr, hpr,pds soleniod electronics to many people selling parts for the gun i would not know who makes good parts or bad ones. i just want to shoot the dam gun. i want something reliable out the box i don't want to keep upgrading just to be with the comp. ive done a lot of reading on these forums and i notice that a lot of the old guys don't like change to rec ball. change is comeing in the paintball world through scenrio rec ball. i am 27 years old with a wife and kid i would not blow $1200 on a paintball gun, and if i did it should shoot further than any other gun but this in not the case all it does is offer more speed i don't need speed i need shot to shot reailbilty. my bm2k could not offer that i hope the tac one can.

as for idea the tac one has some rails make some use of them and use them to make a sling i hate putting my gun down on the table i want my gun on me at alll times.

i hope to see you guys on the field soon!!!

keep doing what you are doing at agd you don't change make real good products and people would come it just takes time.

[jewie27]

I am a new customer i just ordered a tac one today 2/28/25 why not the electo's or even a angel? i need something rugged as few moveing parts as possible. i want the gun to be lite i want to play. not work on my gun i want a small profile as possible. no glam no show i need my marker to shoot consitent and shoot as far as possible. i own a bm2k i love it but i was tired off adjusting this and that. lpr, hpr,pds soleniod electronics to many people selling parts for the gun i would not know who makes good parts or bad ones. i just want to shoot the dam gun. i want something reliable out the box i don't want to keep upgrading just to be with the comp. ive done a lot of reading on these forums and i notice that a lot of the old guys don't like change to rec ball. change is comeing in the paintball world through scenrio rec ball. i am 27 years old with a wife and kid i would not blow $1200 on a paintball gun, and if i did it should shoot further than any other gun but this in not the case all it does is offer more speed i don't need speed i need shot to shot reailbilty. my bm2k could not offer that i hope the tac one can.

as for idea the tac one has some rails make some use of them and use them to make a sling i hate putting my gun down on the table i want my gun on me at alll times.

i hope to see you guys on the field soon!!!

keep doing what you are doing at agd you don't change make real good products and people would come it just takes time.


Welcome to AO and congrats on owning your first AGD product. I guarantee you will not be dissapointed. You probably won't ever have to use a squeegee on the field again, thanks to Level 10.

You won't have to worry about problems with lpr's or anything like that because 'Mag valves have built in regulators. In fact, the only paintball valves in the world to have built in regulators. It's an old school invention from the early 90's and still survives to this day.

Let us know how it works for you.

[jewie27]

My advertising idea is for AGD to give out 1 free license plate frame and 1 free bumper sticker to all AO members. Make it a one time deal.

When you drive your car around, especially to the fields, a lot of people will see AGD on the back of your car/truck.

Free license plate frames has been a deal that my sporting goods company have been doing for over 10 years. It works great.


As far as an entry level 'Mag, that might be a good idea. It's what WGP has already done with Trilogy Autocockers.

They could make the marker around $350 or less and put on these parts:

-A no rise colored ULE body of your choice. (not chord body with milling because it would bring the price up)

-standard automag valve

-AGD gas-thru foregrip

-drop foward or rail option

-Dye Xcel barrel

-Intelliframe

I know you can build your own like this, but it would be cheaper for the consumer to buy a mass produced gun.

What do you guys think of this? Any suggestions? We just need to get the word out that AGD is here to stay. Get new players looking at AGD instead of WGP or Kingmann or Tippmann.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

People are looking at agd just the older people you can not convince a kid to agd no matter how hard you try. kids want what the pros are using and they want the crazy colors unbelviable rate of fire. because they have expendable income (or there parents) kids want accs regardless of performance. agd is for the guy that may come out occasional to play use more skills than firepower. that a gun can sit for 6 months and work after not being used. not ramping boards just good old mechanic trigger i can talk about electrics all day and they serve their purpose they are great on speed ball fields but i think the tac one could compete weight has always been a issue in paintball and i hope the tac one is lighter than the bm2k.

[Baby Huey]

Hey. I can give you the other side of this discussion. I am a speedball player (w/ a '03 Shocker that I have about $1,200 into, I also have the wife and 2 1/2 year old) and I joined a scenerio team (my neigbors). I needed a gun for if it rains and for at night. The guys on the team I am on (Team Trauma MV) have Mags and another scenerio player recommended it as well. I have been looking at them and I am either ordering the Tac 1 or RPG Paradign from themagsmith.com. I am impressed and cannot wait to get my gun and start the process of getting it just right. The problem is that there is a market of people like me that spend an obscene amount of money on their PB habit (I am glad that my wife has no idea!) and up until two weeks ago I had never heard of AGD. In my unqualified opinion, they need to market better and like another post stated have gear with the name on it (and they can make money off that) so that people know who they are. I understand that the looks are not what makes the gun, but you need to have a sexy gun to sell to the masses. Just my thoughts. I will have my gun soon so I will have plenty of questions for you all. God Bless.

Baby Huey

[jewie27]

Hey. I can give you the other side of this discussion. I am a speedball player (w/ a '03 Shocker that I have about $1,200 into, I also have the wife and 2 1/2 year old) and I joined a scenerio team (my neigbors). I needed a gun for if it rains and for at night. The guys on the team I am on (Team Trauma MV) have Mags and another scenerio player recommended it as well. I have been looking at them and I am either ordering the Tac 1 or RPG Paradign from themagsmith.com. I am impressed and cannot wait to get my gun and start the process of getting it just right. The problem is that there is a market of people like me that spend an obscene amount of money on their PB habit (I am glad that my wife has no idea!) and up until two weeks ago I had never heard of AGD. In my unqualified opinion, they need to market better and like another post stated have gear with the name on it (and they can make money off that) so that people know who they are. I understand that the looks are not what makes the gun, but you need to have a sexy gun to sell to the masses. Just my thoughts. I will have my gun soon so I will have plenty of questions for you all. God Bless.

Baby Huey


So you mean you never heard of the 68 Automag Classic before? Is the marketing that horrible?

Just asking.

Have fun with your Tac-One, AGD makes great gear. I've been a Mag owner for 5 years and always will be.

[matt-o]

I just got back from the Grand Finale at Waynes World in Ocala, Florida this past weekend. There were a ton of mag shooters there and most of them I talked to had no idea about AO. Something definitely needs to be done to get the word out about AGD and the variety of new parts that are available.

When it comes to moving things like the reg your still maintaining the weight just moving it to a new location. How about milling on the reg itself instead of the standard cylinder design. Anything to change the look and the image more in line with what players are looking for. Working with PTP to develop and release a pneu fram would be great and would give the customers even more variety. Even the EBlade idea sounds good. The problem is that Tom has developed the VW Beetle of the paintball industry. Its almost too good to change and far too reliable.
how can you own a mag and not know anything about AO? my level 10 kit came with some membersip card to ao

[ApexAZ]

I'm kinda new to paintball, but my friend Gibby pretty much turned me on to AGD :)

I hope they stick around. I really like my ULE RT.

[Baby Huey]

Hey. I heard of it in the last few days reading posts here. Been in PB (speedball) for 8 months and going to my second scenerio in VA in about 4 weeks. I just ordered (like 20 minutes ago) the RPG Paradigm w/ ULT upgrade and a Viper Trigger. I was in the market for a gun for my wife and I was going to get another Shocker. But my the captain of the team I am on has a mag and said that I should have another gun in case it rains (as my shocker would be useless). I had heard of Mags but never heard the right thing to spark interest. I am glad I did now, after reading about them and asking a ton of questions (and I mean a ton) I cannot wait to get my gun. Have a good night.

Baby Huey

[LONEWOLFOO1]

I honestly feel that people don't do any foot work when it comes to purchasing guns they go to the local field or store and see whats for sell or see what most people are playing. i always made to effort to know as much as i can before i go purchase equipment. double stack tube desingn is going to obsulete sooner or later.

let me tell you guys this if agd were to sell the patent for there gun operateing system how quick other gun companys would market it as a new thing. they can't compete with agd design so they stick to double stack tube design. come on guys if a product is lighter smaller profile and no owns copy that okay.... can anybody say lawsuit. if agd does go way of the retirement agd will sell there patent and those guys would market it as some new high level design remember this post.

i feel that agd has supior design all the components are compact and together can nlike other guns in the market where they have multiple parts. no thank you i chose compact.