ICD Freestyle - the future AGD gun now?

[cledford]

Not sure how many people are familiar with the new ICD gun called the Freestyle. It is a blow forward marker like the mag. ICD seems to like blow-forwards as they also produced the only other production BF I know of aside from the mag. Frankly, both of their guns look like AGD knock-offs, but that's beside the point.

Is the Freestyle what could be from AGD as they move forward? The Freestyle looks like sin and evidently has tolerance issues (like the rest of the ICD guns) but it raises good food for thought. With better design, looks and tolerances, a level 10 system (I know that it's got eyes - but still) and an RT type regulator could something along these lines be the gun that brings AGD back? Oh, and I would lose the "LP" operation and the solenoid (used in part to push bolt back instead of a spring) - however an electro, sans tubes, with nice milling, decent anno and intergrated "valve" would be nice.

Another question, how about an ICD/AGD partnership?

Food for thought.

-Calvin

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=599310



http://cleedo.com/fsanim.gif

[LittlePaintballBoy]

I think he is reffering internally Rogue, he talked about the blowforward stuff...

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Calvin:

If they took an ICD and made it with a better design, looks and tolerances, a level 10 and RT type regulator...it would be called a mag, cuz that marker already exists.

Shockers look more like mags than anything ICD makes. Unless you are referring to the internal operation?

but the real questions is: Which gun has now become one of the hottest markers on the tournament scene and which gun has been resigned to obscurity by it's manufacturer?

[rkjunior303]

but the real questions is: Which gun has now become one of the hottest markers on the tournament scene and which gun has been resigned to obscurity by it's manufacturer?

considering they both use a very similar INTERNAL design, it just shows even more the direction of both. Freestyles are nice, I shot one at AONE this past Oct.. They rip so easily.

[trains are bad]

I have always thought the ICD freestyle was what the next 'level' automag should have been. The constant opposing force of the bolt spring, while being cheap and simple and dead reliable, is the one thing that bothers me about the automag.

[cledford]

I was mainly refering to the the operation - blow forward.

If AGD could get someing in the the 699-899 range they would be poised very well. The high end Angels, DM4/5s, and Timmies are great - but I'd bet that the majority of the "tourny" guns found on local fields (read in the the hands of the masses, not the few...) are in the Impluse/Shocker/BK0/Freestyle range.

The key is to beef up the freestyle to AGD level quality while keeping it sub-1k in price and you've got yourself a "tourny gun" that you can can run with.

-Calvin

[cledford]

I have always thought the ICD freestyle was what the next 'level' automag should have been.

I agree -which is the real reason I started this post.


The constant opposing force of the bolt spring, while being cheap and simple and dead reliable, is the one thing that bothers me about the automag.

I disagree. The Freestyle runs off of a solenoid which requires LP air. That precludes the use of the RT technology. Dump the LP reg and 'noid from the frestyle, keep the rest and you've got the next gen mag.

-Calvin

[HoppysMag]

sheridan made a blow forward. a couple others, nothing new.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Bunny, you and I were at the SD Cup. I didnt see to many teams using the Freestyle.

Hottest marker? I am not quite sure Id say that...I see more DM4's, Timmies and Shockers than anything else.

And with the recent changing hands of the company, Id first give the new management an opportunity to correct some of this before I resign AGD to obsurity.

BTW---Havent seen you on AIM these days.

Naughty Dogs, Russian Legion, Texas Storm...those are all pro level teams that have taken up Freestyle's for either this past season or this coming season..and it took all of one year for that to happen...

[cledford]

So, 3 teams out of how many? I guess by that logic youd consider the Cocker to be the hottest marker too, right(since there are just as many pro teams using them too)?

It didnt take all of one season cuz its the hottest marker, it took one season cuz someone with lots of money paid those teams to hold/use their marker. That may equate(eventually) into it being the hottest marker, but not yet.

Rogue,

You've got a point in that the teams didn't finally accept the marker for any other reason than ithey got paid to do so - BUT on the other hand they also get paid to win. I'm going to assume that there is a base line of performance that puts it into the "tourny range" or it would have been a no-go from the start. Tippmann can afford to sponser PLENTY of pro teams - but you won't see anyone using the product because it's out of it's element - and thusly going to be a liablity to winning - causing issues with other valuable sponserships.

I think DB is making a compelling arguement in one sense - the baseline performance of the marker (being able to function at the "pro" level) got it on the list, the green got it on the team.

I think it is pretty telling that several BIG name teams are going with this marker.

Frankly, I JUST discovered the freestyle this morning - but it is becoming a very interesting topic...

-Calvin

[cledford]

Rogue,

I see you point about the mag being 15 years ahead of it's time - but I also know that it will never be acceptedwithout some major changes. It's legacy is also it's curse. When you've got that much history, some of it is going to come back to hurt you. IF the mag is to rise to it's former glory it needs and update that changes it *enough* that it isn't the same marker any longer - but still is, if you get my drift.

The mag needs a facelift and work over - but the principals are VER Y sound - hence this topic. It looks that ICD, at least in part has run with the evolution of what "could be." I'm suggesting that AGD should take que and do the same.

I admire what you're doing with the Mags look and would love to have a completely Rogue Mag. You & I have actually discussed this on the phone. The rogue mag is great for me - a dyed in the wool AGD fan - but to get the mag back to the masses is going to more the finally getting all of the parts to match and some decent creative milling. It's going to require something a little more severe - and it's going to need to be electro.

Regarding the 15Bps thing - that just happened - let's wait to see where it goes. There is so much turmoil on the BPS/ramping/cheater issue that it's going to be a while longer before ANYTHING is set in stone. Until it's all said and done BPS will still have a lotto do with selling markers.

-Calvin

[Blazestorm]

I know for a fact that Rocky Knuth and the dogs weren't forced or paid to shoot freestyles, they picked them up on their own, they tried them out, put in their own software, and started changing things for themselves. I'm buds with the ND fs/timmy tech and he put the new software in my gun, he had to pay full price for his freestyle.

Rogue at the moment you are talking out of your ***, and I know it. Naughty Dogs do not get paid to play, they run a field, and still have their main jobs they attend to. Mapp Chimm works at a restraunt waiting tables 40 minutes from me.

Naughty Dogs don't get uber discounts either, often they're paying full retail price for backup or even their main markers. The only things they really don't pay full for is paint and apparrel (free). Talking to rock we found out that they have to pay 4500 for a full-size x-ball field, and that's what we paid... :ninja:

Freestyles are awesome guns, and CDR with some of the best techs in our area are making them beyond awesome...

[WARPED1]

but the real questions is: Which gun has now become one of the hottest markers on the tournament scene and which gun has been resigned to obscurity by it's manufacturer?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, could it be........................AGD?

[cledford]

Id agree there is a baseline of performance. And AGD markers with their current design are capable of meeting it and exceeding it), even with their 15 year old-classic valve design.

I agree completely. The only issue is that we're all preaching to the faithful. Something will have to fundamentally change with the AGD product (other then with the technology - which we know to be sound) before anyone not already in the fold is going to re-evaluate and learn this fact. AGD's marketing thus far has been to the discriminating player who is savvy enough to know a good deal and understand what makes it so. (quality, support, fit, technology) For AGD (the company) to rise out of the ashes that all will need to forgotten in a sense - NOT LOST - it must be kept - but to get the market now look/chance required price, image, "look" and "bling factor" will need to be incorporated as well. It doesn't seem anyone buys for the good reasons - so sell them what they do want - but remain true to the root s of what make you better. Eventually that will be recognized as well. For example, from what I heard BETA was a better video format that VHS - but who won out in the end? Evidently BATA even marketed on the performance factor - but still lost the war of public opinion. Products don't succeed on performance alone - at least not to the mass public.



But being able to pay a team to hold their marker, that's capable of doing what any other is capable of, is not something I think they would be currently capable of.

True - maybe it's time for AGD to make a deal with the devil and distribute through a big company like National? They can still license the "custom" market to you and others interested in taking things to the next level - who've also been steadfast supporters of their product - but they need some leverage as well. That can be provided by a large distributor.



Kobe Bryant, Shaq(etc etc) all have shoe sponsors....and Id imagine they'd still win(or lose) regardless of the shoe they wear.

Very true.

-Calvin

[Blazestorm]

Who said they were forced? Did I say that anyone was paid to play(as in a salary)?

Re-read my post, teams get sponsorships which is *pay* to use that marker.

While some pro-players do actually get paid, youd be foolish not to think that these sponsorships pay for travel(airline tickets), entry fees(to play in the tournament), gear and paint.

All things that others have to *pay* for out of their pocket.

If you think that any pro team doesnt get compensated in some form, you are just dreaming :sleeping:

I know they get almost a free ride, but you were talking out of your *** when you said that they were told/paid/forced whatever to shoot the freestyle, it was solely their choice because they shot better and performed better then their 1500 dollar timmies.

[thecavemankevin]

Maybe the kids are spoiled around here in SoCal

um, YEAH THEY ARE!! :)

[Blazestorm]

National sponsors them, not ICD.

[WARPED1]

ICD too now. Haven't you seen the ND Freestyle yet Blaze?

[Muzikman]

I bet, and I do not know this for sure, but I bet that ICD does not actually pay out any money to ND. They probably got free guns, if that. ICD is NOT a big company. Hell they are as small at AGD.

EDIT: If you look at the ND page, ICD is 5th on their sponsor list. By the looks of things, NPS give them most of their money.

[Muzikman]

My point is that I am sre there are plenty of gun mfg's willing to give a team like the ND's free guns just for the exposure. So that being said, the ND's I am sure had many options. I think they picked the Freestyle, not because they got them for free, but because they thought they were good guns. I am sure that AGD would have given the ND's 5 Xmags if the ND's would have actually used them.

[Blazestorm]

95% sure that they don't get free guns, they get discounts.

They're not directly sponsored by ICD, it's through national, just like RL

BTW I own a ND Freestyle...

[sithos]

fairly certain its just National that sponsors them, and ICD is either owned or exclusivly distributed by National.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

fairly certain its just National that sponsors them, and ICD is either owned or exclusivly distributed by National.

well..as far as ICD will reveal they are exclusively distributed by National..whether or not it's more than that they have always vehemently denied..

[WARPED1]

95% sure that they don't get free guns, they get discounts.

They're not directly sponsored by ICD, it's through national, just like RL

BTW I own a ND Freestyle...
Oh, I see. I was not aware of the ICD/NPS thing................
How you like that Freestyle?

[RobAGD]

a fewthings about ICD.

If you look at the new guns the finish is about on par to the old NPS Rebels :) Take a look if you have one around, they are so close its scary. Both were made in Twian/China

NPS is running ICD or have a controling intrest in it. Too many things just point to that.

ND's have a HUGE deal with NPS/Empire the gun is part of that deal. ( read they Had Timmys and NPS wantedto push the Freestyle as a Impulse beater )

RL - HUGE Empire/NPS deal with guns again. Well after 1 year NPS wants to push the freestyle and hey guess what theyare shoot the freestyle.

Lets see how many BIG NPS teams get Freestyles this year.

BTW - with Simon on the East Coast now I would be willing to bet he will be doing the design work on the team freestyle guns coming out :D

-R

[CoolHand]

. . . .BTW - with Simon on the East Coast now I would be willing to bet he will be doing the design work on the team freestyle guns coming out :D

-R

Simon did the RL FreeStyle IIRC. Or if he didn't, he took credit for it over at the Gild. :ninja:

I'd say its a pretty safe bet that he did it.

[WARPED1]

a fewthings about ICD.

If you look at the new guns the finish is about on par to the old NPS Rebels :) Take a look if you have one around, they are so close its scary. Both were made in Twian/China

NPS is running ICD or have a controling intrest in it. Too many things just point to that.

ND's have a HUGE deal with NPS/Empire the gun is part of that deal. ( read they Had Timmys and NPS wantedto push the Freestyle as a Impulse beater )

RL - HUGE Empire/NPS deal with guns again. Well after 1 year NPS wants to push the freestyle and hey guess what theyare shoot the freestyle.

Lets see how many BIG NPS teams get Freestyles this year.

BTW - with Simon on the East Coast now I would be willing to bet he will be doing the design work on the team freestyle guns coming out :D

-R
Man NPS owns/controlls everything! 800pb, 888pb, Bob Long, ICD............

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Man NPS owns/controlls everything! 800pb, 888pb, Bob Long, ICD............

And people say SP is a monopoly [/end sarcasm]

[PBX Ronin 23]

And people say SP is a monopolyBusiness success is predicated on sound strategic thinking. Say what you want about NPS but give them credit for a lot of smart business decisions.

More so, give them credit for being one of the biggest contributors to the overall decrease in cost for players in general.

BACK TO THE MAIN TOPIC OF THE THREAD.

From a business standpoint I agree with a lot of things said on this thread regarding the relative success of a gun when put in the hands of highly visible teams. It does have an impact on sales and marketing.

From a technical standpoint, although there are similarities in operation between spool valved guns (Freestyle, 03 Shocker, DM4-5 and Matrixes) and the Mag, the functionality is drastically different. Mags are better designed for longevity and simplicity while the spool valved guns represent lower manufacturing cost (most of their parts are turned on a lathe + cheaper) with a premium on higher rates of fire.

With the market being the way it is now, players seem to change their guns more often depending on what's hot. With this current situation, the advantages of longevity is no longer as desireable. That being said, should there be a shift in Airgun Design's paradigm? Should future designs be based more on the "bling-bling" effect instead of what they've (and most hard-core AOers) traditionally insisted upon........quality?

My hope is that Dave Z can continue and build on the success that Tom has enjoyed but with a twist. Seeing the way the market is now, perhaps more emphasis should be given to Form instead of Substance. It certainly has worked for others.

[CoolHand]

This man speaks the truth.

I love it when the people who know come and lay it on the line for everyone else.

Its like AO's version of a reality check.

:headbang:

[rkjunior303]

I like to think of it as utilizing the "pimp hand"

[PBX Ronin 23]

LOL. Pimp hand is right. But it won't work unless you can back it up with performance.

[FallNAngel]

From a technical standpoint, although there are similarities in operation between spool valved guns (Freestyle, 03 Shocker, DM4-5 and Matrixes) and the Mag, the functionality is drastically different.

Just keep in mind the Freestyle is a blowforward, like a Mag, not a spool valve.

[FireITup14]

this is a little off topic but am i the ony one who dislikes the milling on the freestyle. i kinda think it doesnt flow right. maybe im just weird :ninja:

[cledford]

With the market being the way it is now, players seem to change their guns more often depending on what's hot. With this current situation, the advantages of longevity is no longer as desireable. That being said, should there be a shift in Airgun Design's paradigm? Should future designs be based more on the "bling-bling" effect instead of what they've (and most hard-core AOers) traditionally insisted upon........quality?

My hope is that Dave Z can continue and build on the success that Tom has enjoyed but with a twist. Seeing the way the market is now, perhaps more emphasis should be given to Form instead of Substance. It certainly has worked for others.

I'm not sure they even need to consider reducing quality or changing the way they do things. The company has over 10 years experience building the best-designed, highest quality marker produced. Along the way I'm sure there were a lot of lessons learned and processes perfected. Now it is simply time to focus on the other HALF of the model. The marketing, the "look," and the form you speak of.

By sticking with the same design principal and evolving instead of reinventing every couple of years they are well setup to make a technically great marker with awesome quality - they just need to make it in a package that is more interesting to the current player.

Also, I'm going to say this now and it may not be popular but needs to be said - walk away from the TAC1. It is a great idea but is mismatched in its class. It will never be able to compete with Tippmann; the c02 is an issue, and it sends the wrong message to the “image” driven masses who are the real market segment that needs to be targeted. I keep hearing about how scenario players outnumber tourney players, etc. I don't believe it unless you're comparing apples and oranges. If you compare ONLY pro level players (the NXL teams, etc.) to the total number of scenario players you might have a case - but that is creative use of statistics. These days, virtually every board, magazine, web site and paintball product is primarily oriented towards "tourney-style" play. There's a reason for that. To be the top of the heap in the industry AGD will need a marker that can compete in the upper midrange of the "tourney" guns - the war in the scenario market is won by Tippmann and the TAC1 is a cool nitch product but not going to bring the company back to it's former glory. (Although I'd love a TAC1 ;) )

-Calvin

[Pstan]

I agree Cledford :hail:


Nice to see someone with your stature bring something like this up.......others would be flamed into a fine powdery substance by now. :mad:

[rkjunior303]

this is a little off topic but am i the ony one who dislikes the milling on the freestyle. i kinda think it doesnt flow right. maybe im just weird :ninja:

If the milling flowed with the trigger frame, it'd look alot better.. Judging by what the DC guys said, ICD nornally sends out JUST the body to get milled leaving the frame to be plain... When DC comes out with their Freestyle, they expect to get trigger frames as well and will mill it accordingly. I'm excited to see it.

[CoolHand]

If the milling flowed with the trigger frame, it'd look alot better.. Judging by what the DC guys said, ICD nornally sends out JUST the body to get milled leaving the frame to be plain... When DC comes out with their Freestyle, they expect to get trigger frames as well and will mill it accordingly. I'm excited to see it.

Yeah, but the frame on the Freestyle is a clamshell type, just like the Timmy uses, so the sides are very thin. I wouldn't look for much past some fancy engraving if anthing on those big flats just above the grips. That's all hollow in there to allow clearance for the 'noid and the electronics. They could use a bolt on piece, like the Timmy does, they would have to have a corrispondingly larger body to make them match up (kinda like they did with the eye covers in the stock version).

It'll be interesting to see what they do though.

[magking1971]

Thanks for bringing up the freestyle cledford. It is something to look into when I am going shopping for a new marker.

[Kaiser Bob]

I agree Cledford :hail:


Nice to see someone with your stature bring something like this up.......others would be flamed into a fine powdery substance by now. :mad:


Hehe, Calvin has been in his share of flamefests

[PBX Ronin 23]

I'm not sure they even need to consider reducing quality or changing the way they do things. The company has over 10 years experience building the best-designed, highest quality marker produced. Along the way I'm sure there were a lot of lessons learned and processes perfected. Now it is simply time to focus on the other HALF of the model. The marketing, the "look," and the form you speak of.

By sticking with the same design principal and evolving instead of reinventing every couple of years they are well setup to make a technically great marker with awesome quality - they just need to make it in a package that is more interesting to the current player.

Also, I'm going to say this now and it may not be popular but needs to be said - walk away from the TAC1. It is a great idea but is mismatched in its class. It will never be able to compete with Tippmann; the c02 is an issue, and it sends the wrong message to the “image” driven masses who are the real market segment that needs to be targeted. I keep hearing about how scenario players outnumber tourney players, etc. I don't believe it unless you're comparing apples and oranges. If you compare ONLY pro level players (the NXL teams, etc.) to the total number of scenario players you might have a case - but that is creative use of statistics. These days, virtually every board, magazine, web site and paintball product is primarily oriented towards "tourney-style" play. There's a reason for that. To be the top of the heap in the industry AGD will need a marker that can compete in the upper midrange of the "tourney" guns - the war in the scenario market is won by Tippmann and the TAC1 is a cool nitch product but not going to bring the company back to it's former glory. (Although I'd love a TAC1 ;) )

-CalvinCal, I'm with you on most of the things you've stated in this post. In particular, your uncompromising position regarding quality and maximizing the cosmetic side. But from a practical business standpoint and based on certain manufacturing knowledged that I am aware of, a company WANTS to keep their cost of goods sold as low as possible and keep their selling price to the market as high as possible. That's just a sound business premise and if a company can get away with it, more power to them.

My point is this: The margins between the manufacturing cost of an X-Mag and what they're sold for is extremely low compared to the margins of an 03 Shocker or a DM4/5. These two markers, although presented in the marketplace with intricate "cosmetic-driven" machining actually cost less to manufacture vis-a-vis the X-Mag since the critical components (the internals) are cheaper to manufacture. From a technical and design standpoint the X-Mag is a far superior gun...anyone who would argue this point is either a victim of hype, works for a different manufacturer or are just incapable of being technically discerning.

Between the AGD, SP and Dye, which one benifitted greatly from the point I've made above? Both you and I know that two of these guns, whether by intent or not, are at some point in time going to fail because the wear down in their respective components are more drastic.

Quality cost money. The more time a company spends in designing and producing a product to last a long time, the less margin they make on their products because they have to compete in the a marketplace where the competition doesn't neccessarily share the same perspective on the issue of product longevity.

That being said, if a company can sell guns (a lot of them) in a marketplace where the consumers are more apt to get rid and change their guns at an alarmingly high rate, which of the three companies are more likely to reap tremendous financial gains?.

As a player I agree with you on the quality part. But as a pragmatist, I will humbly beg to differ.

Lastly, the biggest piece of the pie that companies are striving to capture are the low-end/entry level market. The numbers just bear that out. The niche that AGD was going after in the scenario market is a niche that's practically attainable and may still prove to be a boon for any company that wishes to occupy it.

[Toxic Dave]

Mel;

The costs of making parts right and making parts good enough to work is neglegible. If you work with, or have a good shop then it's easy to accomplish the desired results. If your design/ engineering team are any good it's even easier.

dave.

[garto]

Alright.....I don't post much as others think its a waste of their air when I do but....

AGD has done something great. They are part of the paintball history books but currently their products do not lead towards a greater goal so much. It seems to me that right now the most guns being sold are sorts of electro guns. Everyone who plays around here (i.e. majority) use electric sear trippers or electro-pnuematic guns. It just makes sense that AGD would shoot for a faster gun that is easier to produce.

The valves have been perfected, we all know that but what hasn't happened is a way for them to be brought down in cost. I'm not sure but I believe aluminum is much cheaper to machine because it is not as hard of a metal so wouldn't it make sense to sell all aluminum guns in the entire line up. Also produce an aluminum version of the classic valve, makes sense because that valve has withstood the test of time and its lighter.

Next work with outside sources (i.e. rougue, deadlywind, and nicad I believe) to work towards better asthetics for the gun. The best thing to do would be to make rails and bodies that flowed together like unibodies but were still two parts and that also flow into the frames better. Yes, the banjo bolt idea dropped because it was probably harder to manufacture but it does look like the best bet. Look at the other guns on the market, the vert adapter holds the air without any lines dangling from them and no hoses coming across the trigger frame.

As for the speed of the marker, AGD already has all the tools needed. ULT is awesome and should be standard in every marker, it wouldn't make sense not to as the reason many turn away from mags is because of how hard it is to pull the trigger. For the electronic offering, make a new frame that has the solenoid of the emag and just stick a regular 9-volt in there to power it. If you can modify a spyder frame (which currently costs the same as an intelliframe new) to work a mag then AGD better be able to find a way to use that technology. An ingenious way to do this would be to modify all AGD frames so they had the mounting screws for the solenoid, battery and board regardless if they came with it or not. It would mean that AGD would manufacture the same frames for all their guns, intelliframe, y-grip, and some vert frame.

The automag is a great gun! Absolutely one of the best out there no doubt but rather then make something purely functional, add design to it too. Hop into the new trends a little and start putting out different body versions. I can see it now, advertisements for AGD in the magazine "The new and improved AGD!"

Also this site is for the diehard fans really but honestly if AGD wants to leave all the stigma of their marker line behind, produce a different name. Make ULT, lvl 10, vert feed/warp feed, and double triggers standard. That way theres no confusion with the old mag because while *WE* know its all the same....the average Joe might not. Also I hate to say it but AGD might want to start dealing through National because here at my local shop I went in asking for the ULT for an AutoMag and they barely knew I was talking about paintball. Marketing is key as well as packaging, AGD sold the internals years ago but they still havent figured out the packaging yet.

*Please don't flame me as I probably don't know as much as you do or have as much experiance but I try and thats better than not. Also on a final note*

AGD shouldn't look into finding a way to make the gun electro-pnuematic because I always hear of those solenoids going out or something happening to them so keep the same design. Also, it would save a bunch of money on R&D because making something look good compared to making something work is a lot easier because theres not really an issue of what could go wrong.

[CoolHand]

Mel;

The costs of making parts right and making parts good enough to work is neglegible. If you work with, or have a good shop then it's easy to accomplish the desired results. If your design/ engineering team are any good it's even easier.

dave.

That is not necessarily true. Holding super tight tolerances does cost more than just OK tolerances. Tooling has to be changed more often, your machines have to be serviced more often, machine parts have to be replaced more often, your inspection process and inspection equipment has to get better (which = more $), and you will reject more finished parts. All of that will have a significant effect on cost.

I'm not saying that you should sacrifice quality for lowered production cost, I'm just saying that it would behoove them to "open up" their tolerances (or work on the design so that it doesn't need such tight tolerances) a bit, they could save a good deal of money (hell, even 1% spread over a whole year's production is a significant savings).

That's all I'm sayin' :D

:cheers:

[Duzzy]

Custom bodied Devil Mag (Chord, IT, Dallara, Karta etc.) with a 45 and/or vert frame and you should have a winner...

Fast, looks good, and you still get a good old Mag. It is an "electro" and has break beam eyes which is currently what everyone wants. And, if you started mass producing them you could probably just get under the 1k mark, if not, well people are more then willing to spend 16k on a new Intimidator, so why not 1.2k on a cool mag?

[trains are bad]

ULT is awesome and should be standard in every marker

I hate the ULT. I like the regular on/off better.

[PBX Ronin 23]

That is not necessarily true. Holding super tight tolerances does cost more than just OK tolerances. Tooling has to be changed more often, your machines have to be serviced more often, machine parts have to be replaced more often, your inspection process and inspection equipment has to get better (which = more $), and you will reject more finished parts. All of that will have a significant effect on cost.

I'm not saying that you should sacrifice quality for lowered production cost, I'm just saying that it would behoove them to "open up" their tolerances (or work on the design so that it doesn't need such tight tolerances) a bit, they could save a good deal of money (hell, even 1% spread over a whole year's production is a significant savings).

That's all I'm sayin' :D

:cheers:I wholeheartedly agree. Especially the bolded part. An ISO 9000 certified shop is not cheap!

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Maybe one of the problems is AGD wants to produce something that ALL mag users can buy for their individual setup. It may be better for them to come out with something 100% new, regardless if we all can use it.

As far as asthetics go. It seems like AGD believes the body, rail, etc. are just there to hold everything together, if we can make it look good, even better. However, other manufacturers may think, here is a block of aluminum, make it look pretty. Oh yea, and make sure it holds all this in there as well. ( Ok so it's probably not exactly like that, but you get my point)
AGD has alot of potential. I cant wait to see where they go with it all.

[Naby]

I love my mag. It's 100% mechanical. I don't like the feeling of an electro. (not even an electro mag) But I am one of the few. Most people, especially the younger kids, all want the new hyped stuff.

In my opinion, if AGD is to appeal to the greater public, it has to make something 100% new. Making ULE and ULT standard and matching it with a nicely milled body will not do.

The mag has a reputation as the good quality marker from the old times. It doesn't matter how good it really is. It doesn't matter wether you need more bps or not. The kid, new to paintball, doesn't want the marker his dad played with 10 years ago. Even though there has been improvements, it's still perceived as the good old mag.

It has to be new. It may even need a new NAME. Or a very clear variation. Like Mag II or something. (ok, ok, I'm not the creative one in the familly.) The message has to be extremely clear: "Here is the NEW marker from AGD"

Such is my opinion.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

It has to be new. It may even need a new NAME. Or a very clear variation. Like Mag II or something. (ok, ok, I'm not the creative one in the familly.) The message has to be extremely clear: "Here is the NEW marker from AGD"

Such is my opinion.

PANTHER..how many times do I have to keep saying it...jeez..

[Muzikman]

Eh, Panther has been used too many times already. I am thinking more like the Gam, or Gamotua or maybe Gaminim. Hell, just use Gam-E!

Edit: I still think someone needs to make a gun called "Le Gat" or the "Agg". Most of the paintball world would not get it.

[TSovern]

Cal, I'm with you on most of the things you've stated in this post. In particular, your uncompromising position regarding quality and maximizing the cosmetic side. But from a practical business standpoint and based on certain manufacturing knowledged that I am aware of, a company WANTS to keep their cost of goods sold as low as possible and keep their selling price to the market as high as possible. That's just a sound business premise and if a company can get away with it, more power to them.

My point is this: The margins between the manufacturing cost of an X-Mag and what they're sold for is extremely low compared to the margins of an 03 Shocker or a DM4/5. These two markers, although presented in the marketplace with intricate "cosmetic-driven" machining actually cost less to manufacture vis-a-vis the X-Mag since the critical components (the internals) are cheaper to manufacture. From a technical and design standpoint the X-Mag is a far superior gun...anyone who would argue this point is either a victim of hype, works for a different manufacturer or are just incapable of being technically discerning.

Between the AGD, SP and Dye, which one benifitted greatly from the point I've made above? Both you and I know that two of these guns, whether by intent or not, are at some point in time going to fail because the wear down in their respective components are more drastic.

Quality cost money. The more time a company spends in designing and producing a product to last a long time, the less margin they make on their products because they have to compete in the a marketplace where the competition doesn't neccessarily share the same perspective on the issue of product longevity.

That being said, if a company can sell guns (a lot of them) in a marketplace where the consumers are more apt to get rid and change their guns at an alarmingly high rate, which of the three companies are more likely to reap tremendous financial gains?.

As a player I agree with you on the quality part. But as a pragmatist, I will humbly beg to differ.

Lastly, the biggest piece of the pie that companies are striving to capture are the low-end/entry level market. The numbers just bear that out. The niche that AGD was going after in the scenario market is a niche that's practically attainable and may still prove to be a boon for any company that wishes to occupy it.


So are our PBX cockers gonna be Shocker or Mag grade??

[WenULiVeUdiE]

So are our PBX cockers gonna be Shocker or Mag grade??

If you are getting at what I think you are getting at, then Mag grade. Just holding one of their cockers I could tell it was of very high quality. PBX is an applaudable company.

[VFX_Fenix]

For those that came late to the show the Matrix and 03 Shocker both function with a blow forward spool valve similarly to the ICD Freestyle. So... if this is the "future of AGD" then it's been around since 1999. Sorry to rain on peep's parade, but ummm... yeah....

[cledford]

Eh, Panther has been used too many times already. I am thinking more like the Gam, or Gamotua or maybe Gaminim. Hell, just use Gam-E!

Edit: I still think someone needs to make a gun called "Le Gat" or the "Agg". Most of the paintball world would not get it.

Titan?

-Calvin

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Titan?

-Calvin

how about the Automag TLTL (as in "too little, too late")?

[PBX Ronin 23]

So are our PBX cockers gonna be Shocker or Mag grade??Our manufacturing facility will be ISO 9000 certified. Not intending to sound defensive but in order for me to adequately answer your question, I need to know whether AGD or SP do their manufacturing to the same standards.

But if I were to answer blindly, my answer would consist of three letters.;)

[CoolHand]

For those that came late to the show the Matrix and 03 Shocker both function with a blow forward spool valve similarly to the ICD Freestyle. So... if this is the "future of AGD" then it's been around since 1999. Sorry to rain on peep's parade, but ummm... yeah....

Not to burst your bubble, but the new Shocker, and the Matrix are not a blow forward. They use applied LP air to move the bolt forward, and uncork the dump chamber. If left with the dump chamber charged, but no air in either of the bolt movement chambers, nothing would happen. There is not force applied to the bolt or spool by the HP air in the dump chamber. The only thing that can make that marker cycle is the outside input of LP air to force the bolt forward.

In a Mag, and a Freestyle, if you leave the dump chamber charged, but remove the opposing force (the sear in the Mag, or the LP air in the Freestyle), the bolt will move forward and dump the air in the chamber.

That is blow forward. The other two are just spools.

Now, I agree that the air operated blow forward has already been done, I'm just seeing a lot of misclassification.

Can't have that . . . . . :ninja:

Later

[CoolHand]

Our manufacturing facility will be ISO 9000 certified. . . . .


Oww!

They got me right in the wallet . . . .

:wow: :rofl:

That ISO certification costs a pretty penny. Are you guys only going to be doing PB stuff? If you are, I gotta ask how you're gonna absorb a cost like that.

If you're not, then it sorta explains itself. :hail:

[steveg]

Cool, Toxic Dave is entirely right in saying that the differance in cost between "good"
and not so good parts is not much at all.

A well set up and maintained machine can make +/- .001" aluminum parts days on end
with little or no attention paid to it (not that a comptent shop would ever do that :wow: )
In fact if diamond tooling can be used, that can be extended to weeks or even months.
(diamond at the point costs darn near nothing! per part.)

In fact good maintenance and good tooling make better and lower cost parts than
neglecting the machine and tools.
scrap becomes almost nonexistant,and no messing with the machine to make a good part etc. that equals uptime=money :clap:

It's only when you get down to the +/- .0002" level where every part need to be measured
and you start to get significant out of tolerance problems.

Regarding Iso 9000, I've been around the machine tool business for about 20 years
now and I've yet to see the '9000 plague make an already good shop better.
It has however caused for a dramatic increase in meaningless paperwork :tard:
9000 is mostly about documenting process, there actually is another standard that
I don't remember/couldn't find about actual product quality.

remember the cheapest nastiest thing you can buy can still be iso9000.

[Vanced]

Ok,

I sat and read all the pages of this thread...

What any of this fails to grasp is: All the legal vs. money issues that exist. I don't need or want to go into that... But we all know Tom, Dave, Nicad, AKA, who ever can not do what they would like... But here we are all forgetting it again...

As for the quality issues... yep ... My neary 15 year old marker still runs as well today as it did then after being played hard with nothing more than a little oil. Hell I think it still has most of the orginal o-rings in it.

Quality Costs Money: no body can argue that... but it also earns repsect from thoose who value it...

Example: something as simple a wrench...

Go get a 1/2" wrench from the dollar store, Craftsman, and a Snap-On...

No moving parts, no patent issues, no radical engineering or design issues, no endless color or milling choices... All NEARLY identical with the same desired effectiveness...

Why is one 100 times the cost of another.... The differnce is tolerances and material choices... They all work for the most part, but people who want the best and count on that wrench, and never want to buy another one if they don't want too choose the upper end.

Like I have always said...
It all comes down to everything else in paintball ... choice...

:cuss: :mad: ( Flame on ) :mad: :cuss:

Make your choices, IF you want a freestyle and like what they are doing... go get a freestyle... If you like whoever's latest gun go get that... why do I always see countless posts about people wanting and trying to make AGD into someone else ?

Note: This isn't directed at anyone or anything... there are a lot of good stuff out there that severs their intened purpose and has great performance, some proftiable and some not, some popular and some not...

I choose mags 10+ years ago for the reasons that make the mag what it is. Quality and Rock solid ingenious design. I wanted a gun that performed at a high enough level for me with no down time when I played every weekend and couldn't afford a back up. And, now that I play once a month if I am lucky and could afford any marker. But I want to only work on it when I want to tinker not because I have to to play, and can shelf for few months or a few years, pull it out and play a moments notice because I don't have time I would like with my busy life. I for one just do not want to see anything ever come out of AGD that I know won't work a decade later, I don't care many times I change guns for some tinker or toy reason between now and then.

So that is why I still thank Tom for what he gave us, even though it wasn't always easy on him... I hope Dave has some of the same visions and will make some of the same sacrafices to keep giving me a quality product, because I know I wouldn't hold it agaisnt him if he sold out... Because I don't run the place and I don't have to feed my family from paintball either...

As for all this talk about the future: all I have seen came up with is you all want it to lead to a lower cost X-Mag with a 9V battery in the grip and a Banjo Bolt.... with 37+ milling and anno options with a new name... And that isn't nesicarily a bad thing...BUT not at the cost of quality, the fan base of AGD, lawsuits, someone's soul, and what ever else to get it? Which are all issues faced by some of the larger dominate names in paintball... And that doesn't even count it could be questionable if they can even legally continue do it and get away with it...

And that is not counting what growing into a large company can also cost... customer service & personal touch ... I mean come on... most you know theese people by first name, can call and talk to them ... and not only do you know them.... they know and care about us personally as well as their product.

Don't get me wrong I would like to see AGD continue to have a pressence in the electronic marker market and the public paintball market in general... it is just that still...

Why does everyone want and feel the need that AGD has to be such a big part of the hype and buzz of the sport when there are plenty of companies out there for them. It can't be just because we got a great message board? Why can't they just happy like I am that there are Mags in the hands of most of my circle of friends when we get together to play and enjoy it for what it is to us...

Beacase if you feel the Mags AGD has given you up till now doesn't give you enough, bling, awe, attention, jealous looks, or respect go out get what you feel you need to and do what the Mag in my eyes has been doing all along, slowly earning its reputation one elimination at a time.

:rolleyes: (Flame off)

Did I mention i like the Bannana Guy --> :dance:

Sorry for that I don't typically do that...

Edit: Steve, I think you are refering to the TS 16949 certification... because my shop has it along with its ISO.

[Naby]

Vanced, I am happy with my mag. It does everything I want it to and as far as I'm concerned, AGD doesn't have to come up with anything new. But for AGD, as a company, it may be important to regain some of the newer crowd's hearts because it still need to sell guns to survive. I belive Tom mentionned, in his final msg, that AGD has been strained financially for some time now.

[Muzikman]

Vance: The problem is AGD is dying. People are talking about ways to bring AGD back before they just decide to close their doors forever. If you have not noticed, Tom is gone. If AGD was making good money and did not have issues, do you really think he would just get up and leave?

[cledford]

Vance: The problem is AGD is dying. People are talking about ways to bring AGD back before they just decide to close their doors forever. If you have not noticed, Tom is gone. If AGD was making good money and did not have issues, do you really think he would just get up and leave?

It's really disheartening to hear it put this way - but this is the truest statement thus far. I'd really like to see AGD continue on and prosper - but the selfish side wants to keep the legacy of all that has already gone on moving forward as well. I just hope the two can be combined in a single package that takes the world by storm!

I really wonder if Tom will ever be back to do consulting work for AGD. I think all of the changes in the industry really hurt him - but if he could just be turned loose to solve problems without the weight of all of the other stuff maybe he'd be happy.

-Calvin

[Muzikman]

Any time you talked to Tom about the industry over the last 9 or so months he would get that real serious look on his face and just say things like, "The furure of paintball is up to you [the players]". You can tell he was not happy. He was not the same person he was even 2 years ago. I honeslty think it hurt him to see paintball slip into the state that it currently is.

This post is from Glenn over on the POG forum...this shows what the additudes of the old-timers were and still are.
(http://paintmagazine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2285&start=30)

---
"I kind of doubt that.
They have not even responded to the letter that I sent their attorneys.
However, it's not been ruled out as an option. Rolling Eyes

On the other hand, I didn't ask for any money ,yet, I just presented a factual view of the situation and suggested that they not screw with other people over something that they have no legitimate rights to. Razz"
---

That was in reponse to the WGP/K2 issues, more specificaly in relation to AM-P.

To this day, Glenn is not just looking out for himself and PPS, but the other companies out there that the bigger companies are trying to stomp on.

There is a reason I own so many Palmer and AGD products.

[CoolHand]

. . . . A well set up and maintained machine can make +/- .001" aluminum parts days on end
with little or no attention paid to it (not that a comptent shop would ever do that :wow: )
In fact if diamond tooling can be used, that can be extended to weeks or even months.
(diamond at the point costs darn near nothing! per part.) . . . .

Maybe if you're already running brand new machines (I mean less than a year old, with less than 5000 hours on the spindle), with great god awful tombstones, and diamond PVD tooling.

Otherwise, everything gets more expensive when you step from +-0.005" down to +-0.0005" Your maintenance schedule, your fixture costs, your tooling cost, everything. That is, if you are actually going to hold the tolerances your gonna brag about.

If you think that the cost to go from 5 thou to 1/2 a thou are negligable, you are fooling yourself. And really, what in a paintball marker needs to hold half a thou? They can't make orings that are that consistant. Hell, they can't make orings that are even 1/3 that consistant. Also, I don't know how many of you have thought about this, but half a thou in aluminum will quickly evaporate if the part changes temperature. Manufacture it at 70 deg F, and then pick it up and hold it in your hand for a little bit - whammo! You're half thou tolerance has just evaporated. In the real world, 30 deg temp fluctuations are not hard to come by. Don't even get me started on anodizing. . . . Its pointless to design to such tight tolerances, especially in aluminum.

That's my rant. Take it or leave it.

Also, when I say "you" I don't mean you specifically ('cause I don't even know you), its just easier than saying "one would blah blah . . . . " You get the picture.

[steveg]

Cool just what kind of machine are you running anyhow?

[CoolHand]

Cool just what kind of machine are you running anyhow?

My CNC is an older MHP A-22. 28x18x16 machining cube, 22 tool ATC (Automatic Tool Changer), 10 hp spindle.

We just did a PC retrofit (which took ~9 months, don't get me started :mad: ), so the control at least, is basically two steps behind state of the art. Don't have any of those cool at the machine CAM programs, or the look ahead features for hard milling, but since its only got a 5000 rpm spindle, HSM is kinda outta its range anyway.

When it has new tooling in it, we can hold +-0.001" consistently with the fixtures we use. The scales are accurate down to a ten thou (that's 0.0001"), but I'd be real surprised if the spindle bearings in the old girl would have a runout under three ten thou (it is old after all).

[Vanced]

Vance: The problem is AGD is dying. People are talking about ways to bring AGD back before they just decide to close their doors forever. If you have not noticed, Tom is gone. If AGD was making good money and did not have issues, do you really think he would just get up and leave?

Yeah I am sorry folks... :( went all PBN on ya.... :( I was sick this morning and just hit me wrong and went off... And yeah Tom is gone... and I guess I am still bitter over it... But as one of my old bosses use to say Don't bring me a problem without at least offering a solution...

And I think Tom's greatest legacy is the answer to the problem... Simply the Valve... We can all pretty much agree after the RT and LX upgrades it is damn near perfect...

I have been seing a steady Rise in Mags over the last year and half or so... and it is mainly due things that have been worked on right here... Things like Tom's ULE, Deadlywind, Rouge works, Logic, Tunamart... etc... As Tom said the future of paintball is in our own hands... There is a fresh young bunch of players out there that are not all the way biased, we all have been explaining what are mags are lately...

Yeah AGD is dying but as Micacle Max once said something like "There is a Big Differnce in mostly dead and all the way dead..."

I'll Live with the fact it will never be the game I grew up loving... the battery killed it as I always say...

But the solution lies in continually bulding around the Valve... It has the Patents to protect it.. and is plenty fast enough ... plenty durable enough... Interchangeable ... Has History & a Future if we want to help write it...

Keep up with what has been started... More Bodies, More Frames, More Colors, More C&C, More Options... Make the Mag like a Barrel Kit... Piece and part what you need for that day...

We have a rock solid Mech Options... Just keep working on the packaging...

For the love of god create a cheep two finger Carbon Fiber Frame already... if you need a reason it's no wonder AGD is dying....

And start outsourcing even more... We started with Pro Team, Pro Line, Dye, and even the beloved Smart Parts was making stuff for Mags... People love to buy names and parts they really don't need... get um to do it again if you can get them away from their own guns... If not We already got a great bunch of AO guy on the job...

Let shops who want to take the undertaking of R&D And sell the stuff... Heck look at everyone who makes Cocker parts, and how many Cocker Frames and Bodies are out there... Bring Back novelties like the Auto Response Frame, Pump Kits, & Six Packs if someone else wants to Produce um give um the rights let um... and Pray the H.A.I.R. makes the light of day... But hey you still gotta sell um the Valves...

But any gun built around your Valve will always be a MAG in the players eyes... Weither it is a Pro-Team, Rouge, Tuna, Deadlywind, DYE, Smart Parts, ... It'll all end in Mag...

As for the Electric marker Market... I think we simply need a ROCK SOLID mass produced bolt on E-Grip. The Hyperframes, etc where always so close yet so far in my eyes...

Look how the E-Blades are really helping the Mech deamon that is the cocker... & We can make it look smooth and sleak. We do need a E-Frame that removes all Mech Options, and takes the sear away from the trigger... So it can the Electric Feel that the Buzz is for... and remove all the RT full auto Tippman Trigger syndrome... & Make sure it Runs on 9 Volts or similar small battery in the Frame. Buy the rights to what you need to ... create what you need too... But give it all the nifty tunable Trigger pull options, Give it the options people want to be able to Ramp, WAS, Cheater Board what ever to it they want... (( All the "Illegal" stuff comming from aftermarket Mod's of course )) Hell even Eclipse might want to make um...

If people want to a Mech Gun & a Elect Gun for Game play... You can switch to another Frame in a min or two... great for guys who want to go from Rec Ball to Tourny Ball and Back and Forth... What other gun can give you that option ...

Create Versions With and Without the ACE ... Most of us know it isn't needed wtih LX... But hell they'll sell anyways to the higher end market...

I think our answer it where Tom has been leadign all along... Get into the Higher End Noob Market and the Lower End Tourny Guy buy giving him a Gun Platform he can continue to Grow with and get some Brand Loyalty too... Buy buying pieces and parts instead of a whole new marker every season... And then they end up in the same boat as so many of us... "hummm I got a whole extra Mag if I just buy another Valve" .. and the cycle continues...

Tom started it with price slashed ULE RT Custom & keep checking if their is room to lower it even more... we all know the market is lacking inbetween E-Sypders and $1000+ paint cannons.... Lets fill it... and Make Tom proud of his marker & his very own AO Army...

:rolleyes: Rant Off...

In my eyes, It'll always be Tom's world and I am still just living in it ... But I have hopes for Dave and AGD because I am not done playing the game yet...

CHEERS :cheers:

[cledford]

Best post on the subject ever.

-Calvin



Yeah I am sorry folks... :( went all PBN on ya.... :( I was sick this morning and just hit me wrong and went off... And yeah Tom is gone... and I guess I am still bitter over it... But as one of my old bosses use to say Don't bring me a problem without at least offering a solution...

And I think Tom's greatest legacy is the answer to the problem... Simply the Valve... We can all pretty much agree after the RT and LX upgrades it is damn near perfect...

I have been seing a steady Rise in Mags over the last year and half or so... and it is mainly due things that have been worked on right here... Things like Tom's ULE, Deadlywind, Rouge works, Logic, Tunamart... etc... As Tom said the future of paintball is in our own hands... There is a fresh young bunch of players out there that are not all the way biased, we all have been explaining what are mags are lately...

Yeah AGD is dying but as Micacle Max once said something like "There is a Big Differnce in mostly dead and all the way dead..."

I'll Live with the fact it will never be the game I grew up loving... the battery killed it as I always say...

But the solution lies in continually bulding around the Valve... It has the Patents to protect it.. and is plenty fast enough ... plenty durable enough... Interchangeable ... Has History & a Future if we want to help write it...

Keep up with what has been started... More Bodies, More Frames, More Colors, More C&C, More Options... Make the Mag like a Barrel Kit... Piece and part what you need for that day...

We have a rock solid Mech Options... Just keep working on the packaging...

For the love of god create a cheep two finger Carbon Fiber Frame already... if you need a reason it's no wonder AGD is dying....

And start outsourcing even more... We started with Pro Team, Pro Line, Dye, and even the beloved Smart Parts was making stuff for Mags... People love to buy names and parts they really don't need... get um to do it again if you can get them away from their own guns... If not We already got a great bunch of AO guy on the job...

Let shops who want to take the undertaking of R&D And sell the stuff... Heck look at everyone who makes Cocker parts, and how many Cocker Frames and Bodies are out there... Bring Back novelties like the Auto Response Frame, Pump Kits, & Six Packs if someone else wants to Produce um give um the rights let um... and Pray the H.A.I.R. makes the light of day... But hey you still gotta sell um the Valves...

But any gun built around your Valve will always be a MAG in the players eyes... Weither it is a Pro-Team, Rouge, Tuna, Deadlywind, DYE, Smart Parts, ... It'll all end in Mag...

As for the Electric marker Market... I think we simply need a ROCK SOLID mass produced bolt on E-Grip. The Hyperframes, etc where always so close yet so far in my eyes...

Look how the E-Blades are really helping the Mech deamon that is the cocker... & We can make it look smooth and sleak. We do need a E-Frame that removes all Mech Options, and takes the sear away from the trigger... So it can the Electric Feel that the Buzz is for... and remove all the RT full auto Tippman Trigger syndrome... & Make sure it Runs on 9 Volts or similar small battery in the Frame. Buy the rights to what you need to ... create what you need too... But give it all the nifty tunable Trigger pull options, Give it the options people want to be able to Ramp, WAS, Cheater Board what ever to it they want... (( All the "Illegal" stuff comming from aftermarket Mod's of course )) Hell even Eclipse might want to make um...

If people want to a Mech Gun & a Elect Gun for Game play... You can switch to another Frame in a min or two... great for guys who want to go from Rec Ball to Tourny Ball and Back and Forth... What other gun can give you that option ...

Create Versions With and Without the ACE ... Most of us know it isn't needed wtih LX... But hell they'll sell anyways to the higher end market...

I think our answer it where Tom has been leadign all along... Get into the Higher End Noob Market and the Lower End Tourny Guy buy giving him a Gun Platform he can continue to Grow with and get some Brand Loyalty too... Buy buying pieces and parts instead of a whole new marker every season... And then they end up in the same boat as so many of us... "hummm I got a whole extra Mag if I just buy another Valve" .. and the cycle continues...

Tom started it with price slashed ULE RT Custom & keep checking if their is room to lower it even more... we all know the market is lacking inbetween E-Sypders and $1000+ paint cannons.... Lets fill it... and Make Tom proud of his marker & his very own AO Army...

:rolleyes: Rant Off...

In my eyes, It'll always be Tom's world and I am still just living in it ... But I have hopes for Dave and AGD because I am not done playing the game yet...

CHEERS :cheers:

[CoolHand]

Spelling corrected(and bolded). . . . . .

:rofl: People have the roughest time with your SN.

Maybe you ought to go with it . . . . . . :spit_take

Rougefactor Foundation: For the decerning PB :ninja:

Could sell it in a flat black compact. :hail:

It was just too easy . . . . . . couldn't fight the urge . . . may edit post later . . . . too strong now . . . .

:cheers:

(Just in case some people don't get it, the above is a joke, which was too easy for me to simply pass up, no disrespect is intended, I imagine that Rogue has a decent sense of humor, put down the flamethrowers . . . )

[Toxic Dave]

Aftermarket parts help the sale of a marker in many ways, it allows people to "customize" their guns and it creates the perception that the product is worthy of having "x" company to work on it. I'll explain, players see that tuner shops have bothered to make a part or work on a marker, it's obvious that the product isn't a piece of junk. The problem is that unless there is a REAL market for aftermarket parts for a marker, it's crazy to make parts for it, unless you like watching dust gather on anodized aluminum.

Cocker owners don't demand that the shocktech body become standard, because WGP has updated their body design every year to keep up with basic demand.

dave.

[CoolHand]

For some its just a keyboard fubar...

Yep, Ive lived with it thus far....somehow I will cry myself to sleep tonight :cry: :cry: :cool:

oh, you were just joking :rofl:....here is a beer for ya :cheers:

If you do decide to go with it, I promise I won't start a competing line. :cool: :D :rofl:

Have a good Holiday.

[steveg]

My CNC is an older MHP A-22. 28x18x16 machining cube, 22 tool ATC (Automatic Tool Changer), 10 hp spindle.
I've never crossed paths with one of those, is it a horizontal machine?
My experience as a field service engineer is with(takes a deep breath)

Mori Seiki Lathes and machining centers{factory trained at the factory Nara Japan :clap: }
OKK machining centers,SNK machining centers{up to 90 feet long with 6 5axis heads},
OM lathes, Makino machining centers, Yasda machining centers {some are capable of +/-.00005"}
Bridgeport mills and machining centers{factory trained Bridgeport conn },Romi lathes and cnc lathes{factory trained BP Conn}
Kao Ming machining centers, Harig surface grinders{factory trained Elgin Ill},
Okamoto surface and cylindrical grinders, Kuraki boring mills, Kao Fong machining centers,
all as my day job for 16+ years , so I do have some small amount of knowledge
of CNC machines and what their capabilities are.# :cheers: end my rant :cheers: #

as will I've worked on Matsuuara's, Okumas,and some Mazaks .

All of these machines are capable of better than +/- .001" and for many years.

There now that I've got that out of my system :eek:

Somewere up above some one suggested that loosening the tolerances would make
for a less expensive produce , what Toxic Dave and then I are saying is that on modern
High volume CNC lathes and machining Centers , good close tolerances are a built in
Natural part of the process thus there is neither point nor savings.This same equipment
Is being used in Taiwan and China.
Apparently all the round mag parts are being made on Mazak Integrex machines, I think
CPhilip has some pictures around here somewere.

[cledford]

Apparently all the round mag parts are being made on Mazak Integrex machines, I think
CPhilip has some pictures around here somewere.


You are correct. Cphil and I were both on the tour of the factory were all of the AGD stuff is made.

-Calvin

[Vanced]

Spelling corrected(and bolded).

At least you are on the right track. Aftermarket manufacturers are 1 part of a much bigger picture and the key...always have been.

However, I dont see cocker owners saying "make that Shockteck body as a stock option", but AO'ers do!
You want the bling, pay your way and buy it from the aftermarket manufacturer. But we as AO'ers have gotten used to coming here and complaining to AGD to make it themselves.

Problem is when the manufacturer makes an upgrade a stock option, it discourages the aftermarket manufacturer from doing what they do, while also degrading the image of that part...as *stock* parts just arent cool :rolleyes:

Self-fulfilling prophecy... We lose aftermarket manufacturers(Extreme Rage, Eclipse, etc) and we are right back here complaining that we dont have enough parts.

And ultimately, sales numbers dont dictate making new stuff. Cuz making new stuff isnt free, it costs money. So if you arent buying, nothing else can be created.

So, vote with your pocket book and buy more. Or settle for what you have now.

But...as previously stated the NEXT Evolution is coming. Its happening, all around you, give it time. Rome wasnt re-built in a day.

Sorry ROGUE,

You would think after playing fantasy games half my life I would be able to spell such a common word. But know my fingers work faster than my brain I guess... But don't feel bad , it's nuttin' personal , I am lucky if I spell my own name right half the time.

But I was never saying "make that shocktech body a stock option" far from it... I want to see the base stock mag be made as rock solid & bell and whistle free as possible with color's being the only real option. To get it into the hands of as many players as cheeply as possible. Give um a gun that works , that they can't really mess up too bad by tuning like a cocker, and Then show um and tease um constantly with all that their gun can grow into... By adding one piece at time... Because you are right Stock Parts will always have that "Stock Part" stigma no matter how good they really are... so why fight it...

We all know the game costs money... often ALOT of money... but the average player can come up with $50, $100, or even a few hundred or so at a time be it a birthday, christmas what ever... a whole lot easier than they can come up with a $1200 chunk for the lastest complete non upgradeable out of date next year gun... So give them things they can buy... The Tippy guys like it... buying new stocks, triggers, frames, timmers, lights, pointless bells and whistles constantly...

As I said the growth in in the valve... stealth'd Scecerio guns or Bling'd out Tourny guns .... it shouldn't matter it's still just pulling a thumb screw and pop'n in your Valve.

Bottom line is we need to get New Mags back on the walls of shops and fields again... Give the people that don't already have biased the chance to decide... Do what you have too ... Give Stores & large field a Free or discount Demo Mags... ( Has worked wonders selling Golf Clubs and such ) Paintball's best marketing tool is has and is always going to be word of mouth. Get the gun in the hands of the guy who answers the question daily when the kid comes in off the street with his mom or his buddy and asks... " So I have a couple hundred bucks to spend on a gun what do you suggest "...And consider getting the starter package idea going... comming with a no frills steel 68/3k HP Tank and a cheep Revy knock off ... Also don't forget to promote the fact that Mag's have and hold valve... You try to sell last years Mag you still get a decent return on your money... ever try to re-sell a E-Spyder after what you paid new? But it is up to us at AO to continue to support our guys, for us to have the upgrades, and show that kid you see at the field buying the Stock mag what his gun can grow into...

Like a guy who just left a car show and and is buying an old muscle car or a little honda civic with dreams of tuning it into a rocket...We got the 426 Hemi for a valve, no matter what you put it in it should rock... give um the go... sell um the show....

I know rome wasn't built it a day, and it wasn't built by just one roman either. A few people are spending a lot of Time and money to bring us innovations... but if they gotta find a way to get it to market past the legal and financial roadblocks, and we gotta do what we can to support um... but AGD also has to do what it can to continue to build a market for the aftermarket guys... Because no matter how much we want too... AO alone no matter how good our intentions we have can not support Mag world alone with our current size and income, because we are still questioning our very existance a well...

As I said before I am happy I don't have to feed my family over it. Plenty more people will or went broke from the sport than ever made a pofit...but there is money out there somewhere... cause I for one know I have spent a lot on the sport...

But All in all... this is just another virtual 2cents worth of cyber nothingness... It is up to the powers and the players that be to see if this will slowly become the next Mag revolution or the first Mag funeral...

EDIT: Oh yeah.. and we need A LOT more of semi-nude hot chicks for advertising :rolleyes:

[CoolHand]

I've never crossed paths with one of those, is it a horizontal machine? . . . .

Nah, its a vertical, but they made horizontals of the exact same machine (just 90 degs off kelter :D )

I've only got about 5yrs of CNC machining experience, and most of that is on older machines, however I have found that it costs more money to hold a part to +-0.001" than it does to hold it to +-0.005". And, since there is no reason at all to hold them tighter than that (hell, +-0.015" would never cause a problem on the stuff we make), I don't.



Apparently all the round mag parts are being made on Mazak Integrex machines, I think
CPhilip has some pictures around here somewere.

Those are some pictures I'd like to see.

Sadly, I have no experience (outside of a few inspections/watching production) with CNC turning machines. However, since they are pretty pricey, I doubt that I will ever be in need of first hand experince (IE [b]I'll/[b] never own one).

This point has stalemated, I have said my piece, and you your's, and since both of our experiences differ by a good margin, I'm guessing we're just not going to agree (which is fine, I won't hold it against you ;) ). I think a lot of our disagreement is based off of what kind of equipment we're used to using (you = the good stuff . . . . me = the older stuff), which will make a big difference.

At any rate, its good to hear from someone who has more experience (much more apparently) with a good deal of the equipment out there.

Have a good holiday.

[CoolHand]

I have spoken with every shop that I have ever walked into. You know what they say? AGD undercut them by selling the marker or parts directly to the customer cheaper than they could buy it for. And as a dealer, I can vouch that on at least a number of occassions this is true.

That is most true, and AGD is not the only PB manufacturer out there that does it. Look at NPS. You can almost always go buy stuff from 888paintball for less money than a dealer can buy that same item from NPS directly. The only thing they don't undercut their dealers on is the Intimidator, but the profit margin on those is ridiculously low for a marker that costs that much.

The fact is that manufacturers see that the line to the consumer is getting shorter, and the logical next step is to simply short circuit the whole deal, and make all the money themselves. The internet has killed the local dealer. Now, you don't need hundreds of dealers pushing your parts like before (before the internet explosion that is). Now, good advertising can basically replace the entire dealer network of 10 yrs ago, 'cause anyone can type your website into the browser, and cut the middleman out completly.

It sucks, but what are you going to do? The same people who ***** about their proshops going under, or their shops having nothing on the walls, are the very same people who would go by online to save $3 over what the store wanted for it.

Unless the average PB'er is willing to support their local fields and stores, there is no way that the dealer situation will ever get any better.

Have a good Holiday.

[RogueFactor]

That is most true, and AGD is not the only PB manufacturer out there that does it. Look at NPS. You can almost always go buy stuff from 888paintball for less money than a dealer can buy that same item from NPS directly. The only thing they don't undercut their dealers on is the Intimidator, but the profit margin on those is ridiculously low for a marker that costs that much.

The fact is that manufacturers see that the line to the consumer is getting shorter, and the logical next step is to simply short circuit the whole deal, and make all the money themselves. The internet has killed the local dealer. Now, you don't need hundreds of dealers pushing your parts like before (before the internet explosion that is). Now, good advertising can basically replace the entire dealer network of 10 yrs ago, 'cause anyone can type your website into the browser, and cut the middleman out completly.

It sucks, but what are you going to do? The same people who ***** about their proshops going under, or their shops having nothing on the walls, are the very same people who would go by online to save $3 over what the store wanted for it.

Unless the average PB'er is willing to support their local fields and stores, there is no way that the dealer situation will ever get any better.

Have a good Holiday.

NPS is technically a distributor(not a manufacturer). So a small shop is supposed to be able to buy from NPS cheaper than going direct, depending on quantities.

888Paintball is technically separate from NPS. As is Empire, and all the others. From what I have been informed, 888PPB has been legally set-up that way as to avoid MAP pricing. If something could be done about it, I am sure it would. Some manufacturers refuse to sell to NPS because of this.

Again, the manufacturer should never compete with its dealers. Or undercut them.

The bolded text I agree with 100%. That mentality is what fuels the path to big-box retailers.

Ironic, that the consumers are actually creating the big-box retailer while simultaneously complaining about it AND making the decisions that are creating that market.

[Kaiser Bob]

Sorry ROGUE,

I want to see the base stock mag be made as rock solid & bell and whistle free as possible with color's being the only real option. To get it into the hands of as many players as cheeply as possible. Give um a gun that works , that they can't really mess up too bad by tuning like a cocker, and Then show um and tease um constantly with all that their gun can grow into... By adding one piece at time... Because you are right Stock Parts will always have that "Stock Part" stigma no matter how good they really are... so why fight it...



That approach was tried years ago by AGD, if you recall, where they sold a classic mag with nothing on it, not even a barrel. It wasnt the best idea IMO, because you couldent use the gun at all out of the box, and that turned off some prospective buyers. Its similar to the gaming sector, back in the day consoles generally came with a game so at least you could play something right out of the box, now that seems to be relegated to holiday season.

[Vanced]

Coolhand & Rogue,

You are both right, and it is no secert that the local shops can't compete. My cousin ran a field for years and got out for the obvious reasons a couple years ago, so I got to that chance see it first hand. But the ones who are are staying open are not making their money off of the Guns on the wall they are making their money off of field fees, repair work, little extras, spare parts, & paint & air... and sell guns more as a courstsey to their customers. And typically cheep begineer guns is all they'll typically have and the only higher up guns on display are guns owned by the shop owner, his employee's and the regulars. It isn't just the mags that have put a bad taste in shop owners mouths with new display guns...

But, I know for a fact you give um something for nothing give um some cool posters & t-shirts... and a discount or free Mag for Demo... They will be your display case not your distribution center... because that is what you want... And they will give the buyer the same line they do now... "I'll be happy to order it for you" ... just make sure you can get it to the dealer in a couple of days... or even offer to direct ship it to who ever they sell it too... the profit margin will never be big anymore... but that isn't going to change with the internet... But doing something for the dealers is better than nothing...

Becasue we have found good ways to sell us paintball stuff on the internet, BUT we still haven't found a good way for us to play paintball on the internet... so until that changes players still have to go to shops and fields... take advantage of it.

And right you all have a happy holidays...

[Vanced]

Kaiser Bob,

Oh I agree totally with what you are saying... The bare classic wasn't the best idea. I did say Give um a gun that works... Not works after and when you add theese parts too it...

Maybe I didn't claify myself too well.. if you read down a little more you will see that I said go with the starter kit idea... Cheep preset Steel 68/3k and a Revy knock off... and make colors the only real stock option.

There needs to be quick Out of the Box air up and play version, I was trying to say we don't need to always sell the gun with all the new bodies and frames and price itself out of much of the market...

EDIT: But I do still want to be able to order a new gun minus the barrel minus the cost if I want... I just don't like the idea of marketing the gun hanging on the wall at a shop minus the barrel...again it just leads too offering more choices... and choice = good...

[CoolHand]

NPS is technically a distributor(not a manufacturer). So a small shop is supposed to be able to buy from NPS cheaper than going direct, depending on quantities. . . .

That's true for a lot of things, but NPS is getting to be more of a manufacturer every day. Just look at the brands they actually make: Empire, 32 Deg, Psychoballistics, and everything with Bob Long's name on it. That makes up probably 50% of what they sell.

Your point is still valid, I just don't give NPS the "distributor" out. 'Cause, really, even if you can buy cheaper from them than MFG direct, you cannot buy cheaper than they sell to the general public . . . . so what's the point of having a dealership? Qty breaks are the only thing that comes with the dealer status, but even then, most parts have to be ordered in such massive qtys (to get any discount to speak of), that you'd need to take out a fourth mortgage to get it paid for.

But, like you said, the big box is here now, and they aren't going to go away.

That's why I've moved away from strictly resale . . . . .

[CoolHand]

NPS is allot of things. Which is smart business, competitvely speaking. If you competition tries to sqaush you, you have other business channels to rely on. I am not 100% certain its NPS that is technically all of these things. I know the common factor is the owner, but for legal reasons Id guess its been set-up to avoid conflict of interest/anti-trust issues.

And now, the NPS tenticles are so widespread that going up against NPS and getting rid of them is the equivalent of cutting off ones nose to spite their face. You may get rid of him, but youll be losing an appendage in the process, or maybe even your own business existence.


Another irony, those manufacturers that complain the most about what NPS has done are the ones who had the opportunity 10 years ago to keep it from happening. Instead, they loved NPS who bought them out of over-stock goods in their down times.

Pay me now or pay me later. Make a deal with the Devil, youll eventually get burned.

NPS/Gino from my understanding started out of his garage...a little guy just like us. How things have changed.

Oh yeah, I'd imagine that each section has been compartmentalized to reduce overall risk, and keep the legal eagles happy, but the same guy is still running the show.

I'm not saying they're (NPS that is) good or bad, and you're right, Gino made himself, which you gotta respect. It really doesn't make much difference to me anyway, as the few things that I resell, I get mfg direct. About the only stuff I buy from NPS anymore is paint (which they've got good prices on), and that's just 'cause the closest place to get it otherwise is 60 miles away.

I just like to play the devil's advocate (maybe its 'cause I'm a generally grumpy person, or maybe I just like to argue :cuss: :ninja: ).

The reality of it is that if you want to be successful in this market, you'll have to do the same thing they did. (once again, the rhetorical "you") Its a business model that plays itself out over and over agian, in all sorts of industries. And why not? Its hard to argue with success.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Oww!

They got me right in the wallet . . . .

:wow: :rofl:

That ISO certification costs a pretty penny. Are you guys only going to be doing PB stuff? If you are, I gotta ask how you're gonna absorb a cost like that.

If you're not, then it sorta explains itself. :hail:
If there's a will, there's always a way. Yes, at this point we're only doing paintball stuff but who's to say what happens a year from now.

The quality work product that you get from an ISO 9000 shop is in effect a saving (in a way). If you're guaranteed better products to specs, then there's less of a hit on the QC and warranty side. We would much rather have the highest probability that our products are good to go out of the box than to take chances with the market.

ISO 9000 manufacturing, if done cost-effectively, is definitely a win-win situation.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Regarding Iso 9000, I've been around the machine tool business for about 20 years now and I've yet to see the '9000 plague make an already good shop better.
It has however caused for a dramatic increase in meaningless paperwork :tard:
9000 is mostly about documenting process, there actually is another standard that
I don't remember/couldn't find about actual product quality.

remember the cheapest nastiest thing you can buy can still be iso9000.Dude, you know that it's not just the documentation. To over simplify it that way is inaccurate. ISO 9000 compliance ensures that tolerances can be checked independently by a "regulatory organization". Compliance to the standards means that you must ensure your tooling and equipment will not fall short of the standards set.

We can have +/- .001" tolerances out of some dude with a Bridgeport in their basement but once you go on production, who ensures that he must change his toolings so that they don't deviate from that standard?

COMPLIANCE holds people to a higher standard. If people are afraid to be held to a higher standard then so be it.

Multi-million dollar companies pay dearly for the honor of being ISO 9000 certified because it means something. Joe Bob in his basement shop who does custom milling, regardless of the quality of his work, won't see getting that certification to be worthwhile.