ever wonder how much it really cost to produce any gun

[fdrsk8boarder]

ok my little rant, i kno everyone has to make thier money but did you ever wonder how much it really costs to produce any type of gun (say a angel at 1400) and then the price that it gets marked up to the time it gets to the consumer.

i guess u can say im kinda hooked up in the bmx world and a bike that would of cost someone 2,000 dollars cost me about 1,000. a frame that came to 350 i payed 150, while the company still made their profit.
it just kills me sometimes how expensive things are when they dont need to be. dont get me wrong i kno that everyone has to make thier money but when does it turn into being greedy

[Target Practice]

Posting before this becomes a crapfest.

Most people don't consider the scope of a business when they consider the cost of a marker.
Just a short list off the top of my head....

Raw materials
Design time (engineers, draftsman, programmers)
Manufacturing time and resources (both human and machine)
Wear and tear on the machine
Outsourcing costs
Utilities
Lease costs for the manufacturing facility
Advertising

The list goes on and on. Most of these things are things that people don't consider.

[White Wolf]

and what it comes down to is places charge what people are willing to pay. Not like PB is a life or death need its a total luxury item and there is no real cap on what people are willing to spend on those type items.

Did you think about how many people had to pay full price so you could get your discounted BMX bike? Thats one of the things that goes in to the real cost, they are using you as advertising, you get it cheap so other people see how cool you are and go and buy the bike at full price. If you didn't take the cheap bike that was offered everyone else would pay less for there bike. So your part of the problem ;)

[SpecialBlend2786]

same thing can be said for CD's and DVD's. Sure, it may cost less than 2 cents to make a DVD, but there are other factors involved, such as liscensing and other stuff

[urbansix]

Don't forget the built-in cost of paying off SP

[Lohman446]

Don't forget the built-in cost of paying off SP

:rolleyes: I wish before people would bash a company they would have a clue what they were talking about. He used an Angel as an example - WDP does not pay off SP, in fact a judge has ruled that they jointly hold the patent that SP had. Who does pay off SP anyways - maybe ICD, likely Planet Eclipse. I expect there deal with Dye amounts to we use the spool valve, you use electronics were all happy and with NPS its you sell our stuff we let you be.

[UThomas]

The key term as others have mentioned is "Allocated overhead." The direct materials cost of something these days is very rarely indicative of its 'true' cost. Generally paintball stuff is low volume, and high overhead with setup times and R&D. And I don't think many paintball companies are making hand over fist cash.

[SlartyBartFast]

Another cost: The cost of financing.

The item has to sell for the wholesale price plus the cost of the interest. Longer it takes to sell the more the financing cost is.

Even if a store buys with cash, you have to make more on your invested money than you would by investing the money elsewhere.

For an item to be profitable, the unit production cost is sometimes completely meaningless.

[luke]

Yea and Tom Kaye just retired with a boat lot of money. :rolleyes:

You may be surprised what it takes to get a product from R & D, threw production and to your door step. :eek:

[luke]

PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. (The quote is here somewhere but I don't want to search for it)

I think I remember Tom saying he would need $1,000,000 just to develop a completely new gun... :wow:

[GT]

Yea and Tom Kaye just retired with a boat lot of money. :rolleyes:

You may be surprised what it takes to get a product from R & D, threw production and to your door step. :eek:


There are more than a few pb guys that drive fairly nice cars. Not saying that paintball got them thier but lets pretend that paintball is not a profitible buisness.


I think I remember Tom saying he would need $1,000,000 just to develop a completely new gun...

maybe for him, but every year i see a new spyder, timmy, dm4, angel, etc... I could see a mill quick on a completly new desgin, but is there a need?


i guess u can say im kinda hooked up in the bmx world and a bike that would of cost someone 2,000 dollars cost me about 1,000. a frame that came to 350 i payed 150, while the company still made their profit.



Keep in mind that some people wont spend their money on a product UNLESS its expensive. People feel the need to distince themselves from regular people in hopes of elevating to true enthusiasts. Would tourny guys still buy a timmy if it was 50 bucks and every noob on the street had one? Why do you think BL comes out with a new timmy or two every year? Not only does he make money but the consumer also feels that they are more elite with the "newest" gear, even though its the same dam thing they made last year with a different mill/color.

[Muzikman]

maybe for him, but every year i see a new spyder, timmy, dm4, angel, etc... I could see a mill quick on a completly new desgin, but is there a need?




The actual quote was "If you had the chance to save paintball, but it cost you $1,000,000 would you do it." (or something real close to that.

As for new spyders, timmies, Matrix, Angels, etc... they are not "New Guns" they are re milled guns with some changes.

A good example of a "New" gun that kept the same name is the Shocker. The new Shocker is totoally different than the old, and not just in the milling aspect. How much money and how long do you think it took SP to get that gun from thought to a person's hands.

[-=Squid=-]

Posting before this becomes a crapfest.

Most people don't consider the scope of a business when they consider the cost of a marker.
Just a short list off the top of my head....

Raw materials
Design time (engineers, draftsman, programmers)
Manufacturing time and resources (both human and machine)
Wear and tear on the machine
Outsourcing costs
Utilities
Lease costs for the manufacturing facility
Advertising

The list goes on and on. Most of these things are things that people don't consider.

Exactly. Most people consider only what the materials cost, and nothing more. By the way, you look like my dads bass player.

- Goro

[luke]

[QUOTE]There are more than a few pb guys that drive fairly nice cars. Not saying that paintball got them thier but lets pretend that paintball is not a profitible buisness.

The things people own aren't necessarily and indication of what their worth. Most people generally live beyond their means. In my opinion, if you can't pay cash for it you can't afford it. Owning a nice car doesn't mean your raking in the big bucks. Anyone with a job can drive a nice car these days.




maybe for him, but every year i see a new spyder, timmy, dm4, angel, etc... I could see a mill quick on a completly new desgin, but is there a need?


Your not seeing a brand new gun from the ground up either. Putting a fancy new milling job on a gun doesn't mean it was researched and designed from the ground up. Those costs are negligible in comparison to developing a brand new gun.





Keep in mind that some people wont spend their money on a product UNLESS its expensive. People feel the need to distince themselves from regular people in hopes of elevating to true enthusiasts. Would tourny guys still buy a timmy if it was 50 bucks and every noob on the street had one? Why do you think BL comes out with a new timmy or two every year? Not only does he make money but the consumer also feels that they are more elite with the "newest" gear, even though its the same dam thing they made last year with a different mill/color.


Not true for all. Personally I send my money on the performance level I want. If I can't justify sending a lot of money for something I want, I skip it. That's why I've been loyal to AGD for the past 10 years, you have top performance at a great price.

Sell me a Timmy for $50 and I'll shoot it, because it's performance level is worth $50 to me. ;)

:) Just my 2 cents, I don't want to fight. :)

[GT]

Not true for all. Personally I send my money on the performance level I want. If I can't justify sending a lot of money for something I want, I skip it. That's why I've been loyal to AGD for the past 10 years, you have top performance at a great price.

Sell me a Timmy for $50 and I'll shoot it, because it's performance level is worth $50 to me. ;)

:) Just my 2 cents, I don't want to fight. :)

Totally agree,
but you and I are both members of the AO kult and are pretty atypical of the pb community. Poke around on pbn and look at the flame fest that takes place bewteen timmy owners on which timmy is the "best." I had a fellow PBN member im me about loosing money on his empire so he could buy a dark. :confused:

99% of people blow money on bling, I even did it, and at the end of the day they will relize that whatever gun they truly like is the one they should stick with, because in reality, they arnt all that different. Paintball is full of slim shady wannbes and chrony queens....

[fdrsk8boarder]

white wolf i guess your kinda right, after all the money that the consumer pays you also have to think about the money that they turn around and put back into the pb world buy sponsering teams and events. lets face it, it takes a lot of money to advertise and market your product at both a large level, and even at a individual level, kinda like everyone that buys any type of gun is a walking advertisement either good or bad depending on the quality

[WARPED1]

Companies don't make much on guns. The cost is fairly high, stores don't either. The money is in paint sales and recently aftermarket parts.

[GT]

Companies don't make much on guns.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[B.A.M.]

In making the gun you must also take i account for other varible such as marketing, wages, heat, site, factory,shipping, janitors, electricity, and so on. But im sure they still make a killing in $

[TSovern]

There can't be a better money maker for the manufacturer than the timmy, can there? I find it hard to believe all cost per gun can be over $200 - $250

[WARPED1]

Manufacturers only up the price by $50-$75 bucks, I only know because I've worked in the industry.

[TSovern]

Not buying it brother, that would equate to 6% margin (gross) on a carved timmy, nobody survives on 6% gross on anything

[Muzikman]

Wapred: Being the Smart Parts fan you are. How do they make their money if it's not from guns? They don't mfg paint, and if I am not mistaken they do not even distrib any paint, so there goes your idea. Companies make money on guns, if they did not, the companies that make "Just" guns would never last. I think your example only works for a company like NPS. I am sure they make quite a bit off the paint sales.

Also, saying you work in the industry doesn't mean all that much? Where do/did you work? Some local paintball shop? The warehouse of NPS? or the front office of Smart Parts. Only one of those would put you in the know of what the profit margin is of the guns sold.

[SlartyBartFast]

Not buying it brother, that would equate to 6% margin (gross) on a carved timmy, nobody survives on 6% gross on anything

Well, TK/AGD always complained that 1400$ Xmags weren't worth the bother to sell.

It's painfully obvious that the margins in Paintball are tiny. Only the mass market manufacturers and high volume cut-rate distributers are obviously making anything approaching envious amounts of money.

The fact that the only people selling AGD products are low overhead home business and 'hobby' business types shows that the margins are low enough to scare away the normal retail crowd.

It may or may not be in the 6% area, but it's not high. Only a dealer could give you the true numbers, but I doubt they will.

I think the people making the most in paintball are the machinists and annodisers. Only in PB will people complain about the cost of things when so many will re-annodise many times and are more wowed by milling than performance.

[Muzikman]

I agree that an Xmag was not worth their time. But I think that had more to do with the complexity of the milling. I honestly think that if they made an non removable breech xmag with simple milling (but still nice) that it would not cost much more than an Emag. The fact that it took 4 hour or something to just mill the body of an Xmag is where costs come in. Machine time is not cheap (even if you own it).

That being said. I think that an RT Pro has a pretty decent profit margin. It's basically the same gun they have been building for the last 8 years. Just using aluminum instead of Stainless.

[SlartyBartFast]

That being said. I think that an RT Pro has a pretty decent profit margin. It's basically the same gun they have been building for the last 8 years. Just using aluminum instead of Stainless.

Yea. But they did do research to design the X-valve.

I always thought one of AGDs failings was the fact that they simply stayed the same price all the time. Considering the low market penetration of AGD though, I guess that the largest expense for them is overhead and financing costs as they aren't selling enough volume to cut the margin per marker closer.

But even the extreme body for AGDE was expensive (Xmag with little milling) and for whatever reason, it would seem production of a single-piece body or slug is also prohibitively expensive.

But, I never thought TK was being totally upfront there. The slug was initially explained as being round and requiring a rail because of the tooling used (Lathe and mill). Recently TK said what their supplier uses and it would seem that a one-piece body should be simple to produce.

Certainly TK was always a hands on micro-manager. When he wasn't around everything ground to a halt and when he was distracted by side projects it seems all of AGD was also sidetracked. Not a particularily successful business practice for standard production items.

Oh, well.

The fact that after some initial hickups PTP succesfully built micromags shows that the mysterious AGD precision fairies were quite solidly from the realm of mythology.

I've still got to find out how much my one-piece design would cost to mill (but it's only a rectangular block for now). Whether it would be functional depends on how accurate the accidentally released CAD drawing was..... :cool:

[Muzikman]

Well a one piece body should not be all that much more as PTP has been doing it for 10 years. I know Tom was trying to make the body and milling round to save machine time which would cut costs, but by how much, who knows.

As for the X-vavle. There was some R&D and such into it, but not too much, it's design is still based on the RT valve. One thing people forget is that the RT vavle was about 1/3 aluminum already, so it was a matter of being sure the air chamber could be made aluminum.

[spasticsquirrel]

might be posted, but master dealer price for an speed 05 is i think $815.

[Enemy]

its higher than that!! dealers do mark up cuz they need profit too but the cost at which they get their gear makes the mark up near easy to match msrp! it is just hard to match costs with places like nps and action village that get even more breaks for ordering guns by the tens to hundreds instead of by 1-5 at a time!

[SlartyBartFast]

might be posted, but master dealer price for an speed 05 is i think $815.

Which sells for 1060 on paintballgear. So, an IMMENSE :rolleyes: markup of 30%.

At 245 per marker, how many do you need to sell to stay in business? Figure one employee at $7 an hour for 40hrs a week: $280 per week.

So, considering that you have to add taxes and paperwork costs to the employment of that employee you need to sell two guns a week just to keep your one person staff. But, the store rent and heat aren't paid for yet and you need money to put more stock on the shelves.

Yea, sounds like the stores are really ripping us off. :rolleyes:

[punkncat]

A good example of a "New" gun that kept the same name is the Shocker. The new Shocker is totoally different than the old, and not just in the milling aspect. How much money and how long do you think it took SP to get that gun from thought to a person's hands.


I don't know that it took as much effort as you are insinuating. With CAD design they whipped up the body in no time. Single tube design is nothing new to the buisiness...
The internal workings of the marker are nothing new. Matrix have been out for years using a spool valve design that was easy enough to copy.

Not SP bashing or anything , but the new Shocker certainly wasn't revolutionary.




Did you think about how many people had to pay full price so you could get your discounted BMX bike? Thats one of the things that goes in to the real cost, they are using you as advertising, you get it cheap so other people see how cool you are and go and buy the bike at full price. If you didn't take the cheap bike that was offered everyone else would pay less for there bike. So your part of the problem

This is not necessarily true. If he is buying his equipment at a distributor/wholesale price rather than a retail price it could easily be that much difference in price. A standard retail markup is better than X2.5 on many products we buy.

I am sure you recognize this , running your own buisiness and all. Not any kind of dig at you specifically , but hey , most retailers are seriously sticking it to consumers. Especially in paintball.

[-=Squid=-]

Some people in here obviously don't know a whole lot about production of new products.

Down at our plant, it takes MANY months to get something as simple as a tiny, plastic valve with a rotating on off knob into production. I can't imagine a fully functional marker, composed of MANY different materials, some (if not most) of which aren't even produced in house.

- Goro

[punkncat]

Some people in here obviously don't know a whole lot about production of new products.

Down at our plant, it takes MANY months to get something as simple as a tiny, plastic valve with a rotating on off knob into production. I can't imagine a fully functional marker, composed of MANY different materials, some (if not most) of which aren't even produced in house.

- Goro


I understand that R&D on a completly new product is phenominal. But the costs are significantly reduced when you are just standing on the shoulders of the ones before.

Its like when Spyder puts out a "new" marker , the only thing they really did was spend a few hours on CAD making a few things up (maybe less time when you really look at them) , throw together a few models , pick one after a bit of marketing , and throw the same old parts inside of the "new" gun.

The Shocker is a new marker for SP , but it didn't have anything that someone else hadn't already worked out. Topped off by the fact that SP has much technology and experiance at their disposal. It didn't cost them near as much to throw the shocker together as it woud have for a new/small company to totally design the thing.

[-=Squid=-]

I understand that R&D on a completly new product is phenominal. But the costs are significantly reduced when you are just standing on the shoulders of the ones before.

Its like when Spyder puts out a "new" marker , the only thing they really did was spend a few hours on CAD making a few things up (maybe less time when you really look at them) , throw together a few models , pick one after a bit of marketing , and throw the same old parts inside of the "new" gun.

The Shocker is a new marker for SP , but it didn't have anything that someone else hadn't already worked out. Topped off by the fact that SP has much technology and experiance at their disposal. It didn't cost them near as much to throw the shocker together as it woud have for a new/small company to totally design the thing.
So now they have a manufactured gun, ready for mass production.

Beyond this, they probably go through at least 2 different companies before they are sold to the customer. Then there is advertising, cost of paying the employees to make them, etc.

[punkncat]

So now they have a manufactured gun, ready for mass production.

Beyond this, they probably go through at least 2 different companies before they are sold to the customer. Then there is advertising, cost of paying the employees to make them, etc.


Don't get me wrong. Its the American way to make money. Each person in the chain deserves to be able to make a living for what they do. But most things associated with paintball are WAY more expensive than they shoud be. Consider just slider shorts , knee pads , shoes. If you buy paintball specific items you will easily pay double , perhaps even triple , what you would for comparable softball specific equipment. Is it because the paintball stuff is better?

Its pretty easy to resolve really. Either you are willing to pay the high prices to enjoy the exciting sport , or are not and don't.

[GT]

Which sells for 1060 on paintballgear. So, an IMMENSE :rolleyes: markup of 30%.

At 245 per marker, how many do you need to sell to stay in business? Figure one employee at $7 an hour for 40hrs a week: $280 per week.

So, considering that you have to add taxes and paperwork costs to the employment of that employee you need to sell two guns a week just to keep your one person staff. But, the store rent and heat aren't paid for yet and you need money to put more stock on the shelves.

Yea, sounds like the stores are really ripping us off. :rolleyes:


That is what a retailer pays, not what it costs wdp to build, advertise, etc....

My personal belief is that there are money in two things: Guns and accesories.

[SlartyBartFast]

That is what a retailer pays, not what it costs wdp to build, advertise, etc....
My personal belief is that there are money in two things: Guns and accesories.

The only real money is in consumables. If a marker manufacturer could get paintballers to accept specific paint for a specific marker like ink-jet printer manufacturers do, you can be guaranteed that they'd give the markers away to make sure they sold paint.

Look, the design of ANYTHING is not just "a few hours of CAD". You have to build at least one prototype to make sure it works. Prototypes are VERY expensive.

Think about cars. It may only cost a few thousand to build a car in mass production. But, the multi-million dollar prototype and design costs have to be amortised over the expected production life of the vehicle. As do the setup and tooling costs of the factories and supply chain. Support and warranty provisions also have to be added to production costs.

So, Ninhydrin, how do you propose WDP sell their product? My simple example showed how difficult it is for the retailer to survive at the current retail markup. How do you propose WDP lowers the cost to the retailer? What in the simplistic "what it costs wdp to build, advertise, etc...." can be cut to reduce selling cost and increase sales and not instead adveresly affect sales?

To all the whiners: If someone offered you twice the market value of your current gun package would you accept, or say: "No way man, get on the internet and you can buy it there." If you take the money, you're a hypocrit.

It's like the whiners who complain about record industry profits and download music, but who would scream bloody murder if their boss ever refused to pay them for a days work with the excuse that they seem to be living comfortably and paintball, a good car, or other luxuries aren't needed so why should they pay the worker for them.

[Lohman446]

Its pretty easy to resolve really. Either you are willing to pay the high prices to enjoy the exciting sport , or are not and don't.

Funny I have full Dye gear (wearables) as well as conglomartions of others. The fact of the matter is I play more often in jeans a t-shirt (or sweatshirt) than anything else. I just don't see the big difference in Dye gear and its kind of a statement... I just wear it often enough to remind people what I wear is a choice I made. What you are discussing is the stuff you WANT to have to play the game, not what you NEED to have. And yes, I play competetive tournaments in jeans quite often... yes I play front, yes I slide hard and yes I play hard.

[UThomas]

"Is it because the paintball stuff is better? "

No, its at least partially because it is MUCH lower volume. Less volume = less opportunity to spread out fixed costs.

[spasticsquirrel]

that is at master dealer price, you need to sell atleast $16,000 of stuff to get it at that price. Normal dealer is like $915.

if you want to know about crossfire tanks, dealers only make around $5 on them.

[SlartyBartFast]

that is at master dealer price, you need to sell atleast $16,000 of stuff to get it at that price. Normal dealer is like $915.

if you want to know about crossfire tanks, dealers only make around $5 on them.

Sure sounds like EASY money. :rolleyes:

Hey, all I got to do to make 40,000 a year is avoid paying all business related taxes and expenses and sell 160 markers. I'm sure EVERY Mom&Pop operation can manage that.

[spasticsquirrel]

my mommy is buying all of those angels for my weakend gift.

[frontrunner]

the more high tech you marker is the more the comp0any has to spend in R&D this is where alot of you money is going and i say its worth it look at how far the markers have come. i love companys like AGD because i feel the spend their R&D money in to tech where other companys dump alot in to sex appeal

[rabidchihauhau]

a couple of people made glancing blows at this aspect of cost, but didn't mention it specifically:

as a manufacturer, when pricing things out, you need to build in room for distributor pricing; that means that someone buying large volume has to be able to get it at a unit price that lets THEM sell to a dealer at a profit.

Its not mfg to street price, its mfg to distributor to dealer to street price. Everyone wants their 15 to 30%, so mfg + 30% to distributor + 30% to dealer + 30% to consumer.

This is why one (very) general rule of thumb is cost x 4 = retail price.

[Lohman446]

This is not necessarily true. If he is buying his equipment at a distributor/wholesale price rather than a retail price it could easily be that much difference in price. A standard retail markup is better than X2.5 on many products we buy.

I am sure you recognize this , running your own buisiness and all. Not any kind of dig at you specifically , but hey , most retailers are seriously sticking it to consumers. Especially in paintball.

That "standard" retail markup is much closer to 30% than 150% - Im sure there are exceptions.

I know what my local shop pays for things, and what they sell them for. Its one of the reasons I don't invest any money into a paintball store or field - frankly the markup sucks... and thats before you have every player asking for a sponsorship discount

[bryceeden]

Companies don't make much on guns. The cost is fairly high, stores don't either. The money is in paint sales and recently aftermarket parts.

I don't know about companies, but stores definatly don't make much. And for the record my store offers internet price matching and very comonly makes less than a 20% mark up on guns and thats with our whole franchise who gets premium prices due to huge orders. Paint brings in an OK amout, Aftermarket stuff is alot like the guns, in the end its air that keeps my store in buisness more than anything.

[msprince]

I'm putting my marker together part by part until I have exactly what I want. I own all types of markers from custom pumps to much higher end markers but what I want is MY very own design. My own custom body, the bolt I want, the frame I want. And in the end it's going to cost me a whole lot more than if I just bought what someone else was offering. If I was in the industry producing things that I love I would want to sell them for what they were worth to me. I would NEVER make what I thought it deserved and so I would get disenchanted and give up on the industry. Most of the people in the paintball industry are offering things that you like for exactly that reason , you buy what you like. It is a luxury, I like having luxuries. It makes me feel like what I work hard for is worth something to me. It's not a necessary, which sometimes feels like I'm just working to pay bills. In the end, if you don't like the idea of mark-up then stay out of business for yourself, you'll never make it. Like I said, buy what you like, shoot what appeals to you, wear what looks good on you and quit the complaining. Business isn't all about the haves and have nots it's about who wants it the most and is willing to pay to get it. I personally am willing to work my butt off to pay for what I want and hopefully by purchasing even one of those products I keep a business going for just one more day than hopefully paintball will live forever!!