Is zak vetter mistaken?

[speedballa04]

We recently did a sound test using goldwave on one of zak vetters videos claming 16bps. I chose several one second intervals and even tried a 5 second interval( dividing the total bps by 5) and I came up with 13.4. We took the clip towards the end where he was fastest. Now before you take this as a flame I am asking you guys who have goldwave to conduct the same test. We did this using a mic and by playing his video an capturing the sound from it and used goldwave v5.06. I just want to cross-reference my findings.

THanx

[speedballa04]

We recently did a sound test using goldwave on one of zak vetters videos claming 16bps. I chose several one second intervals and even tried a 5 second interval( dividing the total bps by 5) and I came up with 13.4. We took the clip towards the end where he was fastest. Now before you take this as a flame I am asking you guys who have goldwave to conduct the same test. We did this using a mic and by playing his video an capturing the sound from it and used goldwave v5.06. I just want to cross-reference my findings.

THanx


The vid is the one with NO rapid fire... where he is fanning the trigger.

[LittlePaintballBoy]

No, he isn't lying. He has screenshots of the sound tests somewhere. He can legally shoot a mag faster than anyone i've ever seen.

[drewrw]

I will try it...........raiden boy maybe you should too.

[MonsterMag]

those vids are really , fast ,but very true :headbang:

[frop]

I get the feeling that the AO army is gonna come down hard on you speedballa. It doesn't matter to me either way, Zman still shoots hella fast, rapid-fire or no.

[speedballa04]

All I am asking is that you try the test. Apparently all you can do is assume. I would like to see some results of people doing tests, not proof of hunches.

[Blennidae]

Do you have screencaps of the goldwave display you counted? There is always the possibility that Zak might have mislabled a video. He is not known for his spelling... ;)

[Blennidae]

Here is the link to the screenshot of the sound analysis.

http://www.zakvetter.com/Pages/Paintball/Z-mans_AO_Corner/Sound_Analysis/top_rof.html

If you read the caption it says he starts out slow and the screen shot is of the peak. You mentioned you did a 5 second sample and divided by 5. That might be the reason you got 13.4.

[RtDaNiMaL]

okay buddy....
he isnt lying and i have seen him shoot this fast in person. it is really insane. he is one of the only people that i have seen that can walk a intelli fram (besides me [ask littlepaintballboy]) i have fun with it :) also i have been behind a bunker when zak is shooting on you and just you, i dont care if it is just like 16 or however many he gets out of his e mag, but it really sucks and you are almost guaranteed to get out if he is on you, and he is very fast, and you should feel the power, because we all (nor-cal) know he is powered by the darkside (4.0 SFL E MAG)
BEWARE

DaNiMaL

[frop]

All I am asking is that you try the test. Apparently all you can do is assume. I would like to see some results of people doing tests, not proof of hunches.

There were no assumptions or negative actions on my part, I just stated a neutral opinion, especially since you yourself posted no screenshots of your own. You should've posted screenies, asked for confirmation & put a different title! Personal attacks tend not to go over well here.

This aint you're little brother's forum.

[cabldawg]

OK Just to start. I think your thread title might be a little harsh.
Those of us that have played against Zak, all know him to be, fast on the trigger and a honorable player.
I think your just trying to get somebody else to confirm your information. maybe your program is incorrect or maybe zak's is incorrect. So we need somebody else that check the information and post their findings

SO if you could change the title of this thread it might make getting corroboration easier.

[LittlePaintballBoy]

powered by the darkside (4.0 SFL E MAG)


Not anymore :(

[Steelrat]

Here is the link to the screenshot of the sound analysis.

http://www.zakvetter.com/Pages/Paintball/Z-mans_AO_Corner/Sound_Analysis/top_rof.html

If you read the caption it says he starts out slow and the screen shot is of the peak. You mentioned you did a 5 second sample and divided by 5. That might be the reason you got 13.4.

There you have it. Next time you want to play Sherlock Holmes, please check your facts before making accusations. Also try less inflamitory titles.

[ProX9]

please, good sir(***), he cant shoot at 16 bps all the time, look for the times where he did hit 16bps and then delete this thread. you might want to try extracting the audio from the file rather than using the mic, for a more accurate interpretation. 3 days Cuss filter activation and intended as a flame MarkM

[speedballa04]

Here is the link to the screenshot of the sound analysis.

http://www.zakvetter.com/Pages/Paintball/Z-mans_AO_Corner/Sound_Analysis/top_rof.html

If you read the caption it says he starts out slow and the screen shot is of the peak. You mentioned you did a 5 second sample and divided by 5. That might be the reason you got 13.4.


I know what the sound tests say, trust me. I divided by 5 because i slowed the audio down and counted each shot within that 5 second range. So, if high school math serves me right, the nymber of balls divided by the number of seconds would give you an average BPS.

[speedballa04]

please, good sir(***), he cant shoot at 16 bps all the time, look for the times where he did hit 16bps and then delete this thread. you might want to try extracting the audio from the file rather than using the mic, for a more accurate interpretation.


IT DOESNT MATTER I TRIED IT BOTH WAYS. :tard:

[Wc Keep]

There were no assumptions or negative actions on my part, I just stated a neutral opinion, especially since you yourself posted no screenshots of your own. You should've posted screenies, asked for confirmation & put a different title! Personal attacks tend not to go over well here.

This aint you're little brother's forum.

im gonna put you on shout. the dude isnt personally attacking zak. hes just saying hey i checked this, can someone else do the test so i can see if you get the same thing. nothing wrong with that. also you might wanna learn some respect for the other board members. ive noticed that when people here have something they believe in get offended, they tend to start aguing making up false notions and what not. this all needs to stop. ao isnt what it was 3 years ago.

and if you notice in zaks screen shot it says he shot mainly 12-13 bps in the beginning. whats to say that speedbala didnt use the beginning 5 seconds of zaks video to do his test????

[Wc Keep]

please, good sir(***), he cant shoot at 16 bps all the time, look for the times where he did hit 16bps and then delete this thread. you might want to try extracting the audio from the file rather than using the mic, for a more accurate interpretation.


also dude no need to call him obscene word. just remember that mods are inforcing rules more strictly now and you should be banned for what you said.

[LittlePaintballBoy]

Well he puts the PEAK at 16 BPS... not the average over a 5 secoond interval. No lying, moron.

[speedballa04]

Ok, apparently you people think I am stupid. So, here is your screenshot that you requested. You say I am making false accusations when you yourself havent interpreted the audio.

[speedballa04]

Man I hate that 800 by 600 rule didnt get it all. Hmm. well there you have it. Let me see if I can get it all real quick I need to get a picture editor, hand on I will try and resize it. :)

[speedballa04]

THank you wckeep, im glad someone in here understands what I am saying. But, I still see when zman was the fastest and formulated my conclusion from there.

[frop]

im gonna put you on shout. the dude isnt personally attacking zak. hes just saying hey i checked this, can someone else do the test so i can see if you get the same thing. nothing wrong with that. also you might wanna learn some respect for the other board members. ive noticed that when people here have something they believe in get offended, they tend to start aguing making up false notions and what not. this all needs to stop. ao isnt what it was 3 years ago.

and if you notice in zaks screen shot it says he shot mainly 12-13 bps in the beginning. whats to say that speedbala didnt use the beginning 5 seconds of zaks video to do his test????

IIRC, An inflammatory first post (the title is plenty) isn't a good start. Contrary to what you apparently believe, I have great respect for MANY of my fellow board members, including Zman. AO may not be what it used to be, but does that make it wrong to strive to be a cut above the rest? Anyways, I won't argue anymore, the Internet is a flawed means at best, good intentions get viewed as bad, etc.

NOTE:I bear no animosity towards you WC. I'm am just trying to convey my POV as peacefully and clearly as possible. If I can't do that, then so be it, typing will never be a substitue for speaking.

[LittlePaintballBoy]

speedballa. Zak said it was 16 AT THE PEAK. ONE SECOND. YOURS IS AN AVERAGE OF FIVE SECONDS. THEY ARE DIFFERENT.

[speedballa04]

I renamed the subject and posted my results of the test...... :wow:

[speedballa04]

speedballa. Zak said it was 16 AT THE PEAK. ONE SECOND. YOURS IS AN AVERAGE OF FIVE SECONDS. THEY ARE DIFFERENT.
Look at the picture man, please. It clearly says 18.5 to 19.5 (which is one second, not five) which is the fastest segment I could find. The whole 5 second thing was ONE test I did to find the AVERAGE BPS. Not in this pic. I realize that the ENTIRE move isnt 16bps. :tard:

[speedballa04]

Well he puts the PEAK at 16 BPS... not the average over a 5 secoond interval. No lying, moron.


And your calling me a moron......... :nono:

[Steelrat]

Dude, you're not using the same segment of the string Zman did for his analysis. Please, what is your point with all this? I mean, do you think that he manipulated the waveform that he displayed on his website? It clearly shows 16 bps for that one second string. Why the reluctance to accept that?

[White_Noise]

ok....i highly doubt zman of lying, and dont appreciate when people who are new to the boards that make their first post bashing someone that is well respected on the forums.

as for your analysis, try not using a microphone to pic it up, and compare it to the interval that he used.

http://www.zakvetter.com/Pages/Paintball/Z-mans_AO_Corner/Sound_Analysis/top_rof.html

[speedballa04]

IT DOESNT MATTER I TRIED IT BOTH WAYS. :tard:


Try reading my posts and looking at my picts..... In the pic it say rt top rof .MOV is a MOV file a pure audio file like a wav? I dont think so. That pic was taken after I imported it into goldwave and ran the analysis.

[SCpoloRicker]

I normally am the first to pull the trigger of hate...

/Matress Inflated!!! No!!!! Yes!!!! I'll kill every person within a ten mile radius!!!

Yet here, I almost feel bored with shooting down said poster.

It really isn't neccesary to flame. Z-Man's reputation stands for itself. Other than the occasional 10 year old renter and a pack shot ;)

Whomever you are, this is probably not the best first impression you could make. There are a bunch of really cool guys that get together fairly often to play in your area, and "Zack is a liar!" probably won't get you invited to beers afterwards.

Drowned out in the volume of hate; sigh.

[speedballa04]

ok....i highly doubt zman of lying, and dont appreciate when people who are new to the boards that make their first post bashing someone that is well respected on the forums.

as for your analysis, try not using a microphone to pic it up, and compare it to the interval that he used.

http://www.zakvetter.com/Pages/Paintball/Z-mans_AO_Corner/Sound_Analysis/top_rof.html


Im not new, I have been a guest for a while. I just now made an account. How else would I know z-man and his tests?

[Steelrat]

Try reading my posts and looking at my picts..... In the pic it say rt top rof .MOV is a MOV file a pure audio file like a wav? I dont think so. That pic was taken after I imported it into goldwave and ran the analysis.

Sound is sound. Plus, the sound WAS from a .MOV file. I mean, the sound you analysed was originally from the .MOV file. AND, once again, you did not sample the same section of the string.

[speedballa04]

I normally am the first to pull the trigger of hate...

/Matress Inflated!!! No!!!! Yes!!!! I'll kill every person within a ten mile radius!!!

Yet here, I almost feel bored with shooting down said poster.

It really isn't neccesary to flame. Z-Man's reputation stands for itself. Other than the occasional 10 year old renter and a pack shot ;)

Whomever you are, this is probably not the best first impression you could make. There are a bunch of really cool guys that get together fairly often to play in your area, and "Zack is a liar!" probably won't get you invited to beers afterwards.

Drowned out in the volume of hate; sigh.

And what is my location? Tell me that... you seem so sure you know where I am located. Im not trying to be hated. For god sakes read the first post that I made on this thread!!!.

[speedballa04]

Sound is sound. Plus, the sound WAS from a .MOV file. I mean, the sound you analysed was originally from the .MOV file. AND, once again, you did not sample the same section of the string.
OMG, I am spent. Audio is audio yes, I am talking about THE TITLE IN THE PIC THE ONE AROUND THE LITTLE GREEN SPIKES...... THAT SAYS TOP ROF.MOV AND THAT WAS IN RESPONSE TO A THREAD THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. ORIGINALLY SOMEBODY TOLD ME TO NOT USE A MICROPHONE TO CAPTURE THE SOUND, THATS WHO I WAS TALKING TO, NOT YOU. AND YES, OBVIOUSLY THE SOUND CAME FROM A .MOV FILE HOORAY FOR YOU!! :clap:

[SCpoloRicker]

Welcome to AO!

[SCpoloRicker]

Is it possible?

Just for kicks?

Ignore?

I mean, just ignore. Leave alone. Everyone? Fairly obvious, really.

/doubt my own willpower



EDIT: Original poster, I misunderstood something along the way. For some reason I thought you were from the Bay and had played with Zack on some occasion. I did not mean to specify that I "knew your location" and mean no harm by previous statement.

//lawyer off.

[speedballa04]

Welcome to AO!

lol no kidding. HukeD oN Fonicks Ruly WurkEd fuR mE....

[drewrw]

Hey speedballa according to my results I support your beliefs and ask everyone else who has goldwave to try it. I got 14.3bps MAX throughout the whole movie clip. :eek:

at 19-20 seconds into the clip which is was zman says is 16 bps, I got 14.3 out of that.

[spacedtedybear]

Let's wait for Z-man's input before this goes any further.

By the way speedballa04, I certainly hope you didn't expect a warm response when you created a thread whose tittle questions the honesty of Z-man's videos and analysis of.

[O_o]

If you've ever played with Z-man, you know what kinda of crazy shooting/screaming he does :p Once he's on you, it's craaaaaazy. Makes me scared, haha.

And I really doubt Zak would lie about anything. He's an honest and very friendly guy.

[Blennidae]

Well Zak, he's got you dead to rights. I downloaded Goldwave 5.08, and according to that it took you 1.035 seconds to get 16bps. I'm personally crushed... :rolleyes: . I would have been happy with the 15 it took you .968 seconds to get.

[mixwell2]

Not anymore :(

so what is he shooting now??

[thecavemankevin]

where is Zman. I know he sold/was trying to sell his SFL, but i doubt he got out of the sport.

[Lohman446]

If you've ever played with Z-man, you know what kinda of crazy shooting/screaming he does :p Once he's on you, it's craaaaaazy. Makes me scared, haha.

And I really doubt Zak would lie about anything. He's an honest and very friendly guy.


I find it amusing, on AO where we are supposed to want to see the proof not the hype. You have someone on here asking a serious question, could have asked better, showing you why he feels there is a question here, and asking for the SOUNDWAVE analysis that shows he is wrong. And I hear a lot of "well I've played against Zac and my ears know what 16BPS sounds like". Nothing against Zak, and nothing against the poster - frankly I dont care what BPS your shooting at. But this is not like AO... Maybe there is a miscount somewhere, the poster flat out stated what he did, how he got his resulted, and asked for independent confirmation or denial - he stated he might be wrong.

The title was inflamatory, it was changed. Let the man be, this is an interesting conversation, and frankly I don't think Zak intentionally misrepresented himself, nor do I think the poster. I think given actual analysis rather than PBN style "while my friend is the fastest.. I heard it it must be 500BPS" this might be interesting

[pballratt]

yup i got 15bps on goldwave 16 not far off at all. still dam fast for a mag.

[Wc Keep]

I find it amusing, on AO where we are supposed to want to see the proof not the hype. You have someone on here asking a serious question, could have asked better, showing you why he feels there is a question here, and asking for the SOUNDWAVE analysis that shows he is wrong. And I hear a lot of "well I've played against Zac and my ears know what 16BPS sounds like". Nothing against Zak, and nothing against the poster - frankly I dont care what BPS your shooting at. But this is not like AO... Maybe there is a miscount somewhere, the poster flat out stated what he did, how he got his resulted, and asked for independent confirmation or denial - he stated he might be wrong.

The title was inflamatory, it was changed. Let the man be, this is an interesting conversation, and frankly I don't think Zak intentionally misrepresented himself, nor do I think the poster. I think given actual analysis rather than PBN style "while my friend is the fastest.. I heard it it must be 500BPS" this might be interesting

thank you. exactly what i was trying to say.

hey drewrw this is getting scary we are starting to agree more often now.

[LittlePaintballBoy]

where is Zman. I know he sold/was trying to sell his SFL, but i doubt he got out of the sport.


Hah, there is no way Zak could get out of the sport. It isn't possible.


He still has the RT and I think he is picking up an Excal or Viking of some sorts...

[LittlePaintballBoy]

And your calling me a moron......... :nono:



Yeah, I am. Moron.

[TheTramp]

Yeah, I am. Moron.

A direct flame, very constructive. :rolleyes:

I can't seem to find any post by speedballa04 which says that Zman is lying. I believe that he thinks the analysis is flawed. There's a big difference.


God forbid anyone questions and/or tries to reproduce results. Oh wait, that's good scientific practice.

[Wc Keep]

A direct flame, very constructive. :rolleyes:

I can't seem to find any post by speedballa04 which says that Zman is lying. I believe that he thinks the analysis is flawed. There's a big difference.


God forbid anyone questions and/or tries to reproduce results. Oh wait, that's good scientific practice.

well tramp thats what we do here at pbn, we flame and pitchfork and call names cause thats what gets the job done. :rolleyes:

[Z-man]

OK I am awake now. I saw this thread last night but did not get a chance to post on it as it was very late for me.

This is very embarrassing new to me as it sounds like I might have posted up the wrong info. Before I post anything else I am going to look at all the videos I have done and double check them, I find it hard to think that something like this went over my head but....

There is no goldwave for the Mac but I have been using BIAS Peak DV. Perhaps I shall try out a send sound editing program and cross reference the results to see if Peak gives me a different answer.

I would like to say though, that wile I was not flattered with the title I am glad someone looks at my work and checks it.

more later.

[Lohman446]

OK I am awake now. I saw this thread last night but did not get a chance to post on it as it was very late for me.

This is very embassising new to me as it sounds like I might have posted up the wrong info. Before I post anything else I am going to look at all the videos I have done and double check them, I find it hard to think that somethign like this went over my head but....

There is no goldwave for the Mac but I have been using BIAS Peak DV. Perhaps I shall try out a send sound ediing program and cross reference the results to see if Peak gives me a different answer.

I would like to say though, that wile I was not flattered with the title I am glad someone looks at my work and checks it.

more later.


Now this is the response I expected from AO and I must say that it is an intelligent well thought out response. This is where Z-man gets so much respect from, those who blindly defended him might do well to look at why they respect the man. AO appreciates the discussion, especially done in a civil manner

[Z-man]

Now this is the response I expected from AO and I must say that it is an intelligent well thought out response. This is where Z-man gets so much respect from, those who blindly defended him might do well to look at why they respect the man. AO appreciates the discussion, especially done in a civil manner

Thank you for not making fun of all the spelling mistakes I now see I made too..... sigh.. gimme a few hours guys.

[SCpoloRicker]

Thread has been re-named multiple times, and content has been edited multiple times as well. That's why people new to the thread are wondering why all the hate (at least most of them).

Sounds like tomato/tomAtoe on the 15 vs 16 bit, and I'm sure that they are different sections of the string to analyze.

My initial post relfects my thoughts on Original Posters attitude upon joining the board.

Big ups for Zak for handling this in a mature manner. He plays all the time, guys, he's jus t been dormant here for a while. As have cable, steel, stondroopy, and several other responsible adults. This thread managed to get them alive. Me, I'm just a post-whore ;)

As for the infamous SFL E-Mag, I wasn't aware he was selling it, but I know that after having shot Steelrat's Featherlight Excal, he's probably gonna end up with something similar.

See you tomorrow guys!

/Now I feel all bad for picking on ya in Meet & Greet... :p

[spacedtedybear]

Whoa Whoa Whoa. When did Z-man sell his SFL???? :confused:

[Wc Keep]

Thread has been re-named multiple times, and content has been edited multiple times as well. That's why people new to the thread are wondering why all the hate (at least most of them).

Sounds like tomato/tomAtoe on the 15 vs 16 bit, and I'm sure that they are different sections of the string to analyze.

My initial post relfects my thoughts on Original Posters attitude upon joining the board.

Big ups for Zak for handling this in a mature manner. He plays all the time, guys, he's jus t been dormant here for a while. As have cable, steel, stondroopy, and several other responsible adults. This thread managed to get them alive. Me, I'm just a post-whore ;)

As for the infamous SFL E-Mag, I wasn't aware he was selling it, but I know that after having shot Steelrat's Featherlight Excal, he's probably gonna end up with something similar.

See you tomorrow guys!

/Now I feel all bad for picking on ya in Meet & Greet... :p


whoa nelly the title has only been changed once. editin has been done to include stuff. why there was hate in the first place is the retarded thing.

[speedballa04]

"whoa nelly the title has only been changed once. editin has been done to include stuff. why there was hate in the first place is the retarded thing."




I never hated anyone. I respect z-man and his work. I was just bored last night and decided to start goldwaving stuff. That may not have been referred to me wckeep but I just wanted to let everyone know.

[Dayspring]

Well, "lying" has strong negative connotation. "Mistaken" is a better, non derogatory and non accusatory way of saying things.

Perhaps renaming this thread over on PBNation would be in order.

[Steelrat]

If you look at Blennidae's analysis, you'll see that Zak essentially hit 16 bps in that one second interval, or 1.035 seconds. I mean, thats 16 bps. So, again, why are some people still insisting that he didn't do it? Zak's analysis, and now Blennidae's, show that he did. The only person I have seen post any proof to the contrary is the thread originator, and there are still issues regarding what part of the sound file he sampled.

[FireITup14]

this is stupid stop arguing about it

[drewrw]

thank you. exactly what i was trying to say.

hey drewrw this is getting scary we are starting to agree more often now.



Yeah it's a little scary, but, I am not complaining. Its hard to find someone in any forum who will agree with you(especially in pbn..lol) I thinks its G-R-R-R-E-A-T!!! :headbang:

[drewrw]

this is stupid stop arguing about it


I dont think the person who started this thread is trying to be argumentative. I think he is just trying to get some people to participate in his own research. :eek:

[FireITup14]

i think its turned into an argument however

[RtDaNiMaL]

whoa whoa whoa.... are we sure zak has sold his sfl e maf fireblade... or is he selling it and we are not sure if it is gone or not... if so many memories are gone with the bad boy, such as when he took on about 60 people all by himself (literally) and they were all shooting on him as fast as possible (literally again) also the time when he did his never forgetting river dance in the back stand up. ahahaha


DaNiMaL

[FragTek]

It's ok to round up :D

[hAppy]

Why does it look as if you, speedballa04, are trying to tarnish Zak's reputation? You come here to AO and get off to a bad start. 16 posts, and you're ready to attack a well respected member of AO.

You posted another thread on PBN, http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=9270848#post9270848, I find that unnecessary since you want an answer from the man himself don't you? By knowledge we all know Zman hangs out here more than PBN. I don't see what the need is to drag accusations onto other forums.

Although you haven't directly accused Zak of being a liar, I will just give my opinion on him. I've met the guy, great guy, he would never lie or "bend the truth" as far as I know. And he has no need to lie b/c he's popular enough already. Everyone makes mistakes, but don't try to trample his reputation for a mistake, it there is any.

Drew- I do think the creater is trying to instigate a fight, or a net brawl as we should put it. In his PBN thread, he has a way to show his curiosity and his skeptics with :mad: smilies, when there is a more suitable smilie such as :confused: . Say the smilies don't have any direct meaning, he's sure setting up a bad environment for a discussion such as this.

GO ZAK!!! :headbang:

[indulgence]

Clearly, Blennidae as gotten great results and it shows that Z-Man hit 16 at 1.35 seconds. :wow: I will vouch for Z-Man and his fast shooting.


Oh and "speedballa04" I hope you enjoy your time here on AO. Welcome. :rolleyes: :rofl:

[Blennidae]

Clearly, Blennidae as gotten great results and it shows that Z-Man hit 16 at 1.35 seconds.

Since the whole point of this thread seems to be to nit pick, it was 1.035 seconds. You don't want someone thinking you are dishonest or anything. ;)

[RogueFactoryKid]

Is Zak Vetter gonna have to choke a.......well you know the rest.

[MarkM]

We recently did a sound test using goldwave on one of zak vetters videos claming 16bps. I chose several one second intervals and even tried a 5 second interval( dividing the total bps by 5) and I came up with 13.4. We took the clip towards the end where he was fastest. Now before you take this as a flame I am asking you guys who have goldwave to conduct the same test. We did this using a mic and by playing his video an capturing the sound from it and used goldwave v5.06. I just want to cross-reference my findings.

THanx

Ok I editted the title not speedballa04 and I restored all the posts where people were having a dig and then going back and deleting the posts so all that was doing was fanning the embers. Agreed the original title of "Is zak vetter lying" got peoples backs up but the post content although now editted..by speedballa04 wasn't drastically changed and he is asking a sensible question by asking for others to check what he has found...he thought it was wrong and says so and wanted confirmation. Now even though a couple of people have understood this (zak vetter included) things are beginning to get out of hand so thead is now closed.