Tournament rules ethics, quick question

[Tyger]

Well, it's one question with a few aspects to it.

Let's say I'm interested in going to a tournament (go with me on this...). I look over the rules, and there are no rules specificlaly talking about what kinds of paintguns can or can not be used. The only restrictions are that the paintgun must have a lockable velocity adjustment.

So I'm asking this specific to tournament style of play. If there is nothing in black & white prohibiting a specific technology, is it allowable? If the rules do not specificly or broadly prohibit things like ramping boards, full auto, burst modes and so on, is that being given permission by the event to use these modes? I'm not talking the "spirit of the law", I'm talking about the "letter of the law". And thinking of it, should tournament players be expected to play to the "spirit" of the rules, or to the "writing" of the rules?

Related, should an event be responsible to publish a rulebook at the event, and make it accessable to anyone and everyone that asks to see it? Does an event have the right to re-write the rules at the event site?

Just curious to opinions.

-Tyger

[Lohman446]

Tyger, in your example there legal - anything except velocity adjustments UNTIL told otherwise.

Now understand that I have and use ramp. I normally specifically ask the promoter if ramp is legal, or if Im tryign to be sneaky if we are playing under NXL gun rules.

[Lee]

agree w/ Lohman. nothing in your statement prohibits them.

the spirit of the rules is unenforcable.

the promoter is responsible for having written rules that cover what is expected of a player and teams and it must be accessable. actually, every team and player should have read and have a working knowledge of the rules for that given event. the rule book must also be enforced....but thats another topic.....

i think rules should only be re-written for safety issues. once a rule book or format is set and published, it should be set. the possible exception is a published amendment date prior to the event. if the promoter doesn't have a rule set by the time that rule is needed, then it's thier bad. but, this is where "head refs and ultimate judges descretion" comes in....which again is another topic.......

[REDRT]

If it isn't written then it is legal. How I feel about it is one must take every advantage to win. If you don't someone else is, putting you at a disadvantage. :shooting:

[brianlojeck]

spirit of the rules only exists in friendly games. In all cases where money is on the line it is the letter that matters.

that's why I only play friendly games. ;-)

[the larch]

Uhm, yea.
How about "here's your money back now go home."
If you have to question if what you are doing is ethical, or right, then it probably is not. Every ruling not covered in writing at an event can be enforced ex post facto by simply not letting the team play. It's not like you can take them to court because your paintball rights have been violated. I doubt the other teams are going to be sympathetic either.
Just because the rules don't "say" I can't drive my paintball gatling mounted hummer onto the hyperball field doesn't mean I should be allowed too.

I can't believe that the sport has gotten to a point where people expect to be forced to be honorable or they are not responsible for their actions. If you want to stay honorable, you should ask the people who are running the tournament if what you intend is ok....not us.

[Kodiak]

If you have to question if what you are doing is ethical, or right, then it probably is not.

I agree, sort of. Things like full auto and ramp boards are not necessarily "unethical or wrong".



the spirit of the rules is unenforcable.

I totally agree. The rules that are to be enforced in any professional sport MUST be in writing. The interpetations and application of the rules must be consistant also. I saw a program the other day on pro football refs. At the end of every week they get together and review the penaltys and calls that were made. They review the rulings and what rules were quoted to make them. Paintball promoters and refs must have the same commitment to the sport. For the benefit of the players and the spectators too. Inconsistant enforcement and "looking away" at rules violations only degrades the sports in others eyes.

[wimag]

well just like your thread questions can be asked to the field hosting the tourney. if they express a format say similar to NPPL then bone up on that literature to answer it.
what exactly is the underlying point of your question, you have been aroud the blocka few times to know the answers to this.


Well, it's one question with a few aspects to it.

Let's say I'm interested in going to a tournament (go with me on this...). I look over the rules, and there are no rules specificlaly talking about what kinds of paintguns can or can not be used. The only restrictions are that the paintgun must have a lockable velocity adjustment.

So I'm asking this specific to tournament style of play. If there is nothing in black & white prohibiting a specific technology, is it allowable? If the rules do not specificly or broadly prohibit things like ramping boards, full auto, burst modes and so on, is that being given permission by the event to use these modes? I'm not talking the "spirit of the law", I'm talking about the "letter of the law". And thinking of it, should tournament players be expected to play to the "spirit" of the rules, or to the "writing" of the rules?

Related, should an event be responsible to publish a rulebook at the event, and make it accessable to anyone and everyone that asks to see it? Does an event have the right to re-write the rules at the event site?

Just curious to opinions.

-Tyger

[brightman]

Although I dont agree with using full auto or ramping boards under the given example I would say that the only thing that could be enforced is the velocity lock.
Although I do agree with The Larch on the idea of, if they dont like the unwritten rules give them their money back and send em on their way, I dont think it is practical. It falls under the "you cant change the rules as we play" law. If you run a sports event of any time, from basketball to football to paintball to BINGO, the written rules of the game are the only enforceble rules.
If you want a tournament without full auto ramping guns than it should be specified in the tournament rules.

[rkjunior303]

written rules..

The league we played in, NEPL, publishes a rule book based on the NPPL which they adhere to for the year.

[REDRT]

Uhm, yea.
How about "here's your money back now go home."
If you have to question if what you are doing is ethical, or right, then it probably is not. Every ruling not covered in writing at an event can be enforced ex post facto by simply not letting the team play. It's not like you can take them to court because your paintball rights have been violated. I doubt the other teams are going to be sympathetic either.
Just because the rules don't "say" I can't drive my paintball gatling mounted hummer onto the hyperball field doesn't mean I should be allowed too.

I can't believe that the sport has gotten to a point where people expect to be forced to be honorable or they are not responsible for their actions. If you want to stay honorable, you should ask the people who are running the tournament if what you intend is ok....not us.

Well, there is the common sence issue of not going too far. Every field is different. Thats the first problem right there. But since there not, we are playing the "grey area". ( sound like a liberal now) If I was to cast out the "demons" and go solely "ethical" I'd play rec ball. But I don't. I'm playing for higher stakes than a simple "good job". Even though I fully agree with you on, "ethics" are out the window in some cases. They are not enforced so you got to go with it or loose alot. I think there should be limits. I'm spending alot of money keeping up, but until there is, I'm going to play to win. Don't get me wrong the team and I are not dirty rotten SOBs. We help out the field owner, support the other teams and try to do right by taking the time to help kids and rec players when we can, but on the air field we do are best to dominate with no mercy.

[GT]

"spirit of the law"

"letter of the law"

-Tyger

thats the problem right there. In this country we flurt with both all to quickly depending on what we want the outcome to be. Ironically, it seems that the rules have not cought up with technology we all know that most local tounry's do not allow full out simply be social constructs, however shouldnt the rules reflect said trends?

[Wc Keep]

most tourneys use what they call modified nppl rules. this means that they tweak the nppl rules to fit their tourney. all nppl rules are in effect though. so that means that if nppl says ramp is not ok than so does that tourney.

[tony3]

I guess people use semi guns because well it is common sense? I know that the badlandz 3 and 5 man series don't have a rule book online. It really isn't needed. Most people know how to play paintball in tournies. For all other boarderline rules, they go over them in the captains meeting.

[Lee]

thats the problem right there. In this country we flurt with both all to quickly depending on what we want the outcome to be. Ironically, it seems that the rules have not cought up with technology we all know that most local tounry's do not allow full out simply be social constructs, however shouldnt the rules reflect said trends?

i agree and disagree......there are rules to cover most if not all issues, but enforcement is selective. i agree that arguing gray areas is very much abused. thats why i think rules should be written and available as well as enforced without bias. frankly, finding a guy to ref and stand up for his decision ain't that easy when you have a "pro" get in your face.

i have experienced selective enforcement as a referee first hand. at a major tourney in my area by a national promoter, the scrutineer came to me and said " i want THAT gun". i pulled it as directed. but in a later game when i pulled a suspect marker, i was told "i'm not interested in that marker".

i, personally, feel that national tournament level paintball will not be legitimized until officiating becomes "proffessional".

i like what the nppl is doing as far as teaching and certification, but i feel they are doing it for promotional reasons more so than for the betterment of the sport.
please don't get me wrong , i feel certification and training are good for the game, but, it must be used properly in practice.

[GT]

[QUOTE=Lee
i, personally, feel that national tournament level paintball will not be legitimized until officiating becomes "proffessional".
[/QUOTE]


Big Agree there,
I think a pro reffing assoc. would solve a ton of problems.

[trains are bad]

Written rules, and enforcement of them.

Last tourney I played sock hats were specifically stated to be illegal in the captains meeting. Odd, but whatever. Later in the tourney at least 5 people are wearing sock hats and not even bothering to hide it, while mine was in my gear bag because I was following the rules. I went to the head ref and asked if sock hats were allowed. I was told no.

It's just a sock hat, but it's still wrong.

[REDRT]

i, personally, feel that national tournament level paintball will not be legitimized until officiating becomes "proffessional".

I would have to agree with this also. Right now it is very cut throat. Hard to excell with out big money and fastest crap out there. It be nice to slow it down get everyone on the same page. It will happen soon.

[JesseB]

Rules (not talkin safety here) are there for one reason... To level the playing field...
The teams that are gonna win are the ones who can walk the line the rules make or sneak across it without being caught... plain and simple...

[WARPED1]

Should play by letter of the rules.

[REDRT]

I remember a quote that I heard, "Never break the rules. Bend them alot". Kind of like the tourniment scene of today.

[Richter]

Tyger
if your inferring about skyball rules; I think they are a little confused because of the following:

quoted from http://www.skyball8.com/rules/index.asp

"2.34 All markers are subject to inspection at any time during and within three days after an PSP Tournament, provided that the markers are taken for inspection prior to such tournament’s completion, and the team of any player found to be using a marker in violation of this Section 5.2 shall have all points amassed up to the point such discovery removed, and such teams will no longer be allowed to continue to participate in the tournament"

but Section 5.2 contains the following:
"5.20 GAME ENDINGS "

which has nothing to do with markers

But there is also this rule that says whatever rule the judge makes up is the rule:

"2.52 Anything not specified in Section 5.01 through 5.34, inclusive, as permitted shall be prohibited unless allowed by the Head Judge."

So we need to ask is fullauto allowed at skyball 8?

If it does someone needs to make the magnum loader for the AT-85 or what use to be called the ts1 select fire.
http://www.getrealpaintball.com/
links to magnum loader: http://www.angelfire.com/ca5/tsoog/magnum.htm

Team with these would be cool :shooting:

[xXHavokXx]

Written rules, and enforcement of them.

Last tourney I played sock hats were specifically stated to be illegal in the captains meeting. Odd, but whatever. Later in the tourney at least 5 people are wearing sock hats and not even bothering to hide it, while mine was in my gear bag because I was following the rules. I went to the head ref and asked if sock hats were allowed. I was told no.

It's just a sock hat, but it's still wrong.


People wear sock hats there? What is this 2002? Geez

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

People wear sock hats there? What is this 2002? Geez

Ask Tony sock hats= the bounce.

[REDRT]

Ask Tony sock hats= the bounce.

Savage cheating gear 101

[tony3]

Sock hat=horribly ugly Not sure about the bounce factor, as I never wore one. I sure know I got a ton off my beanie's.

Apparently, trying to get bounces=cheating. As long as you stay within the rules about what you can and can't wear. It isn't cheating.

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

Sock hat=horribly ugly Not sure about the bounce factor, as I never wore one. I sure know I got a ton off my beanie's.

Apparently, trying to get bounces=cheating. As long as you stay within the rules about what you can and can't wear. It isn't cheating.

sock hat beanie, whatevs.

[tony3]

Hehe, beanies do rule. I get an insane amount of bounces off mine. Just a standard knit beanie.

[Miscue]

If it is not specified as illegal, it is implied as legal. Changing the rules at the event? No way. Wait until the end of the season, or at least the end of that event before a change is made. If an NFL rule was changed during a game, there'd be hell to pay!

[xXHavokXx]

Sock hat=horribly ugly Not sure about the bounce factor, as I never wore one. I sure know I got a ton off my beanie's.

Apparently, trying to get bounces=cheating. As long as you stay within the rules about what you can and can't wear. It isn't cheating.


Sock hats are the official hat of the gay eskimo lumberjack olympics. Bearnies are cool.

[tony3]

Amen.

[Tyger]

Tyger
if your inferring about skyball rules; I think they are a little confused

Well, I was speaking in generalities, but that will work. As far as I know, PPIG will not be attending Skyball 2005, so it is not an issue.

What I was looking for here was basically a litmus test. No judgment, I just want to see where the waters were drifting, if you will. If the rules didn't say specifically "no full auto, ramping or bounce trigger paintguns", I was curious how many people would indeed look into that as a possibility to play with.

There are other rulebooks that don't specify what kinds of guns you can or can not take with you to play. And after this seasons collective griping about ramping and debounce, I find it interesting that all the promises that "next year will be different" are just that, promises. Perhaps people wanted to use their "factory ramping" guns to play tournaments, and the tournaments yielded.

-Tyger

[xXHavokXx]

If there was no speed limits on the free way would you still drive 55?

[brightman]

nope, I dont drive the speed limit now. But if I get caught I get to pay whatever county/city/state $150 for their troubles. If rules are set there also has to be real punishments to enforce them and a professional/highly skilled person to enforce them. Otherwise they are just words on a piece of paper.

[Echo-Newb]

Tyger,

People aren't going to follow the spirit of the rules if there isn't anything being written down about it. You have to think of it this way, people will get around it if they can. If they can find a way to get around it they will do it. It's just how some people are.

Now I'm not saying that all people will do this. But it's just how some people are. Plus, if you were getting in there and you asked the juges and stuff about it they'd have to tell you. But then again, it'd be their fault for not even putting it into the rules. So hey, that's how it is right?

-Echo

[Lohman446]

Well, I was speaking in generalities, but that will work. As far as I know, PPIG will not be attending Skyball 2005, so it is not an issue.

What I was looking for here was basically a litmus test. No judgment, I just want to see where the waters were drifting, if you will. If the rules didn't say specifically "no full auto, ramping or bounce trigger paintguns", I was curious how many people would indeed look into that as a possibility to play with.

There are other rulebooks that don't specify what kinds of guns you can or can not take with you to play. And after this seasons collective griping about ramping and debounce, I find it interesting that all the promises that "next year will be different" are just that, promises. Perhaps people wanted to use their "factory ramping" guns to play tournaments, and the tournaments yielded.

-Tyger

I use my rebound Shockers in rebound mode in about 50% of the tournaments I play at, perhaps just a touch more. This is always (when done) with the express permission of the tournament promotor or head ref., now thats not to say that I tell everyone I play with but I don't hide the fact either.

[rabidchihauhau]

In all of the rule booklets I have written for paintball (5, 6 or so) only the first one did not have a rule to the following effect:

"Situations not specifically covered in the rules or of a questionable nature are NOT allowed; if equipment usage is questionable, it is NOT allowed UNLESS specific permission is granted by the (Ultimate/Rules Committee/Promoter)."

In other words, if its not expressly allowed by the rules, it is forbidden, pending review by the rules-makers.

It was during the first event using my first rule book that I learned to stick the above in to the rest of them.