ASTM facts?

[p8ntball72]

where would I find test data on goggles?

The reason im asking is that my Local renagade group has decided to start shooting hot.
I have sat out 3 weeks in a row because these players refuse to chrono their guns below 300.
The usual responce i get is "if you cant handle the pain dont play" or "we shoot hot because we are shooting further"
This new group of "K-mart killers" are ruining local paintball.

How could I change these players? and why would adults {35 and over} have the idea that shooting hot is OK?

[teufelhunden]

Why don't you go to an actual field and play..

[Lohman446]

where would I find test data on goggles?

The reason im asking is that my Local renagade group has decided to start shooting hot.
I have sat out 3 weeks in a row because these players refuse to chrono their guns below 300.
The usual responce i get is "if you cant handle the pain dont play" or "we shoot hot because we are shooting further"
This new group of "K-mart killers" are ruining local paintball.

How could I change these players? and why would adults {35 and over} have the idea that shooting hot is OK?

I dont know physics well but I think you will find much over 300 causes issues with Votex shedding.. I know my marker seems more accurate around 260 then 290. They should also experience more breaks.. assuming you gear is rated to what they aer at you can change there minds by wiping them out :) maybe :confused: ok.. your course of not playing may be best :(

[p8ntball72]

Why don't you go to an actual field and play..

I do... 8 times a year with my scenario team.
but for rec play the closest "real field" is 3 hours away :cry:

[p8ntball72]

I dont know physics well but I think you will find much over 300 causes issues with Votex shedding.. I know my marker seems more accurate around 260 then 290. They should also experience more breaks.. assuming you gear is rated to what they aer at you can change there minds by wiping them out :) maybe :confused: ok.. your course of not playing may be best :(


K-mart paint shells seem thicker than other paint, so not to many breaks.
i got hit with a ball at 340 a few months back and the welt is still not gone.

[68magOwner]

where would I find test data on goggles?

if you do find it, you will find out that lenses can take a hit at 400fps from a metal ball, much less a paintball, your not gonna break a lens with a paintball, even frozen ones i would highly doubt could break a lens, mabey another part of the mask, but, lenses are alot tougher than people make them out to be, shooting hot can do damage to your body (espicially close range shots to the hand (can break small bones, even at legal speeds) or neck)

[p8ntball72]

if you do find it, you will find out that lenses can take a hit at 400fps from a metal ball, much less a paintball, your not gonna break a lens with a paintball, even frozen ones i would highly doubt could break a lens, mabey another part of the mask, but, lenses are alot tougher than people make them out to be, shooting hot can do damage to your body (espicially close range shots to the hand (can break small bones, even at legal speeds) or neck)

Mass diver had these up a few days ago..
http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80909&stc=1
http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80907&stc=1
http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80910&stc=1


I am assuming he was playing at safe speeds...what do you think would have happend if the guns were at 320/340 fps

Also if you read the box that most goggles come in they say to "replace the lens after ONE inpact" why is this?

[Caffiend]

I can't search ASTM's website right now, maybe Bill Mills or Tyger can help you out. All I've found is this so far. Link (http://www.protecteyes.org/paintball.htm)

[p8ntball72]

well im no ASTM tester...but i did have an extra pair of brass eagle goggles that were loaners.

TEST SPECS...

AUTOMAG CHRONO AT 327/330/331 WITH HANDHELD
7 ROUNDS GAP PAINT {FRESH}
2 YEAR OLD K-MART MASK WITH BRAND NEW LENS
7 SHOTS TO THE MASK AT 15 FEET AWAY 10 SEC BETWEEN SHOOTS



as you can see not only did i knock the lens out of the frame...i also broke the lens,and the mask is no longer safe or useable. :eek:

is this *PROOF* that shooting hot is not safe?

[p8ntball72]

Matt... I know your reading this. bet your glad you didnt wear this mask..lol :eek:

[68magOwner]

Mass diver had these up a few days ago..
http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80909&stc=1
http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80907&stc=1
http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80910&stc=1


I am assuming he was playing at safe speeds...what do you think would have happend if the guns were at 320/340 fps

Also if you read the box that most goggles come in they say to "replace the lens after ONE inpact" why is this?

his lens cam unseated, it didnt break, and they advise the lens be changed, just as a precaution, how many people do you know who actually cnange their lenses after every gogg? and how many of them are missing eyes?

[68magOwner]

well im no ASTM tester...but i did have an extra pair of brass eagle goggles that were loaners.

TEST SPECS...

AUTOMAG CHRONO AT 327/330/331 WITH HANDHELD
7 ROUNDS GAP PAINT {FRESH}
2 YEAR OLD K-MART MASK WITH BRAND NEW LENS
7 SHOOTS TO THE MASK AT 15 FEET AWAY 10 SEC BETWEEN SHOOTS



as you can see not only did i knock the lens out of the frame...i also broke the lens,and the mask is no longer safe or useable. :eek:

is this *PROOF* that shooting hot is not safe?

now that is scarry, few questions, how old was the mask? what were weather conditions like? where has the mask been stored? any exposure to extreme heat or sun for extended periods of time? never seen anything like that, go figure it was a BE mask, i emptied a hopper onto a JT mask what was already cracked (crack straight down the center) to see if it would break, and it didnt (can take to field and see if anyone has a hopper to spare on it this weekend)

edit- you should have hit it with legal speed to see if it broke, then at the higher fps

[p8ntball72]

I know..we have been lucky

the point is.. paint can get past the lens and impact your face and the effects are worse when the shot is hot.
agreed? :cheers:

now how can I explain this to local players that dont think its "that big of deal"?

[xXHavokXx]

I know..we have been lucky

the point is.. paint can get past the lens and impact your face and the effects are worse when the shot is hot.
agreed? :cheers:

now how can I explain this to local players that dont think its "that big of deal"?

I wouldn't play with them.

[p8ntball72]

now that is scarry, few questions, how old was the mask? what were weather conditions like? where has the mask been stored? any exposure to extreme heat or sun for extended periods of time? never seen anything like that, go figure it was a BE mask, i emptied a hopper onto a JT mask what was already cracked (crack straight down the center) to see if it would break, and it didnt (can take to field and see if anyone has a hopper to spare on it this weekend)

edit- you should have hit it with legal speed to see if it broke, then at the higher fps



The mask is about 2 years old {I use it when i ref} it was kept in a goggle bag in my air conditiond hobby room. I loaned it out this last weekend so i guess it has normal wear and tear.
I think it was about 6 oclock arizona time {12/27/04}and about 50* outside
I put a new lens in it for the test.

I have another loaner mask that was bought at the same time {2 years ago}
that i will shoot at under 300 if you like.

[Enemy]

show them that mask!!! :wow: if that doesnt it do it shoot them with a real gun we dont need stupid people in this world!

[ojhspyro89]

Show up with something that they will sure as hell not play against. Bring a pvc cannon or something of that affect.

That wouldnt be too effective



the best way would probably to get major pissed at them and swear alot. When people do stupid stuff like that, i just scream in thier face alot and swear and it seams to help they dont do it again when im around.

But thats just how my town kids work.

[White_Noise]

i had my lens get cracked in a tourney when the markers were chronoed down to 280. and the guy that shot me got chronoed off and was shooting maybe 275 on average. id stop playing, with them, and try to find another group to play with. if not, then id try to explain to them why they shouldnt, maybe citing this thread as a reason.

[Muzikman]

if you do find it, you will find out that lenses can take a hit at 400fps from a metal ball, much less a paintball, your not gonna break a lens with a paintball, even frozen ones i would highly doubt could break a lens, mabey another part of the mask, but, lenses are alot tougher than people make them out to be, shooting hot can do damage to your body (espicially close range shots to the hand (can break small bones, even at legal speeds) or neck)


You would be shocked at just how little lens can really take. Your thinking is very dangerous.

[Rift]

Yeah i dont see how a lense can take a hit from a metal ball at 400fps and not break yet alone get pentrated entirely? This dosent make much sence. I can see it possible stoping a paintball but im almost positive it would still crack.

[ScatterPlot]

What a bunch of morons. Tell them that it is not only less safe, but less accurate. It helps in no way other than meduim range ease of "dodging"

[Beemer]

Got a pic with all the paint cleaned off????????

ASTM test is 12 ft. 325 to 400 fps, 1 to 2 sec. wait, 8 shots, 3 left side, 3 right side, and then 2 anywhere you think it might fail.



if you do find it, you will find out that lenses can take a hit at 400fps from a metal ball, much less a paintball, your not gonna break a lens with a paintball, even frozen ones i would highly doubt could break a lens, mabey another part of the mask, but, lenses are alot tougher than people make them out to be,
Care to share where you got this info from???????


http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=160827&page=1&pp=40




Many of you aren't aware that at the CFOA finale at Rock Hill, that there was a player who was bunkered by a ramping gun at point blank range in the head. The player who did the shooting was not malicious in his actions, but the quick pulls of the trigger did produce 6 shots to the mask of the player who got bunkered. Those 6 shots at that range broke the unaltered Profiler of the player who was bunkered. We were lucky and no injury occurred. Only the player who got his bell rung and had to buy some new goggles was the worse for wear.

[manike]

What part of the profiler broke?

I can see you maybe shooting a hole through the rubber mouthpiece but that's about it. I'd like to hear more about that story as I don't believe it. The lens will take a huge amount of abuse.

I have some Vforce lenses on my desk that were shot with a ball bearing at 750fps, 3 times, and none went through.

I also have tested goggles and don't see there being any concerns as long as you keep them in good condition and replace the lens as instructed.

EDIT: to correct PSI to FPS.

[manike]

Here's a post I made before on another forum.

As ever there are major concerns about safety equipment in this sport. A lot of people have been predicting doom and gloom and making wild accusations about the standard of safety equipment.

As one of the few people I know that has honestly, and realistically done some of these tests I thought it was about time to show some videos.

Firstly, someone said ramping boards are bad because 'have you ever seen what 20 shots will do to a goggle'. I say yes I have... and now you can too...

You will need quicktime to view these video's...

http://www.simonsstuff.com/20ormore.MP4

Secondly I would like to point out that if anyone shoots enough balls at someones goggle to damage them then that person had to reload, and really ought to be jailed for assault.

Here's a whole halo, with NXL type code, and hard paint lighting up a goggle from approx 2.5m (I found if I was closer I got covered with paint...

http://www.simonsstuff.com/full-halo.MP4

Do you know how hard it is even from less than 3 metres to empty a whole hopper non stop into the same location. My poor fingers got tired!

And no player would stay still for that long and let you...

I've done a lot more tests too, and am not concerned about lens safety as long as you keep good care of your equipment and buy a quality goggle.

I purposely used low end goggles in these tests because they tend to have a worse fit and more concerns.

Any questions?

[manike]

Oh and one issue I should point out, that is testing goggles 'loose' i.e. not on a mannequin head, gives an unfair test.

[Beemer]

Thanks for the vids. What did the head piece look like when you removed the EPD. What did the lens look like when you cleaned the paint off. I know that was an extreme test, just curious. What about 15 shots to eather side of the EPD and at different angles not just straight on?


I also have tested goggles and don't see there being any concerns as long as you keep them in good condition and replace the lens as instructed.

The question is how often is this done? I bet not many really follow or read the distructions for gogs. See my post above. Seems 6 shots compromised the EPD in that event.

I think proper lens care is more the issue but what about 15bps not a hopper to the top side and back of head and neck. The unprotected areas is where the concern should be.


Peace Out
Beemer

[manike]

What did the lens look like when you cleaned the paint off.

It has some little scratch marks on it from the shell. If you've ever been gogged from close range you will know what I mean. It has quite a few because of the number of shots it took.


What about 15 shots to eather side of the EPD and at different angles not just straight on?

The lens will still take it fine. Glancing blows do less to the lens than direct impacts.


The question is how often is this done? I bet not many really follow or read the distructions for gogs. See my post above. Seems 6 shots compromised the EPD in that event.

Lenses are tested constantly from the production line.

I agree some people don't take proper care of their lenses or equipment. That's NOT the manufacturer's fault. All goggles tell you to change the lens every year, and after being shot from close range. If you don't follow the instructions it's an issue, but it's your fault. Welcome to Darwinism.

[manike]

You know what... those are Goggles and Lenses I am not familiar with. I'm not going to discuss results of products I am not familiar with.

What I will say is that brands I am familiar with, I'm happy to wear. :)

Other's... I'd be concerned about.

You CAN'T BE TOO CAREFUL with your vision.

[Beemer]

You know what... those are Goggles and Lenses I am not familiar with. I'm not going to discuss results of products I am not familiar with.

What I will say is that brands I am familiar with, I'm happy to wear. :)

Other's... I'd be concerned about.

You CAN'T BE TOO CAREFUL with your vision.



No comment on the unprotected areas, eh.

What brands are you familiar with?

Why would you be concerned about OTHERS???? Dont they all meet ASTM standards?????

On the side shots I meant straight on from the side.

Still curious on how much paint got thru to head unit on that test.

[manike]

No comment on the unprotected areas, eh.

What brands are you familiar with?

Why would you be concerned about OTHERS???? Dont they all meet ASTM standards?????

On the side shots I meant straight on from the side.

Still curious on how much paint got thru to head unit on that test.

I never play without protecting my head and my neck.

I change my lenses at least every year. And more often if I get shot in the lens from close range. You can tell with most lenses when they have taken a decent impact and so you should change them.

One thing I really don't want to lose, is my sight.

I don't know about other goggles and whether or not they meet the ASTM standards.

Maybe someone independent should test them all...

Maybe there's a future tech article for Bill Mills...

[ScatterPlot]

I might have missed this, but what was the velocity you used on those tests?

[manike]

My video's were at approx 290fps.

[jewie27]

Those Brass Eagle masks suck. My friend got shot twice in the lens and paint chips got into his eye from going under the lens.

[p8ntball72]

My video's were at approx 290fps.

Have you done any test videos that were over 300?

i would hope a mask that was "fresh off the line" would take an impact or 2...

In my area the only local place to get gear is at wal-mart/K-mart and most "rec" players dont maintain their "saftey gear", yet they feel its "ok" to shoot hot.

Manike, would you agree that its bad for the "sport" to shoot hot guns?

there are many "rural" towns all over that dont have commercial paintball fields, so how do you get the saftey message to these players?

[manike]

Have you done any test videos that were over 300?

Did you miss the bit about ball bearings at 750fps? :) But I don't have video's to show of that.

It's EXTREMELY STUPID to shoot hot guns. The velocity limit we have is determined by the legal level of 'lethal energy'.

If you are shooting hot you could be shooting someone with an amount of energy determined 'lethal'.

If you injure them... you are in far more serious trouble. And you are FAR more likely to injure someone when shooting hot.

The energy goes up with the square of the velocity. So going up from 300 to 310 is worse than going from 290 to 300.

[p8ntball72]

Thank you. :headbang:
so how do I explain this to new players thats only exposure to paintball is "jackass or viva la bam"

[xXHavokXx]

While my suggestion of not playing with them still stands the evil part of me says you should buy a timmy, set the debounces low and just mow them to pieces since they have no rules

[p8ntball72]

i've got a timmy...I like my mag more.
I have not been playing with them..so i guess I suffer because they dont fallow the rules :tard: :rolleyes:

[Blazestorm]

well im no ASTM tester...but i did have an extra pair of brass eagle goggles that were loaners.

TEST SPECS...

AUTOMAG CHRONO AT 327/330/331 WITH HANDHELD
7 ROUNDS GAP PAINT {FRESH}
2 YEAR OLD K-MART MASK WITH BRAND NEW LENS
7 SHOTS TO THE MASK AT 15 FEET AWAY 10 SEC BETWEEN SHOOTS



as you can see not only did i knock the lens out of the frame...i also broke the lens,and the mask is no longer safe or useable. :eek:

is this *PROOF* that shooting hot is not safe?

Try that with a real mask, not some POS that barely meets standards.

[xXHavokXx]

I think the profiler would do well, the force would be applied over the total egde of the mask as it is flush against the frame of the mask and not just at little tabs.

I hate those little tabs.

[magman007]

Try that with a real mask, not some POS that barely meets standards.


hmm funny how they suck. they are, or atleast were(it appears that his mask was) manufacuted by z leader who now makes.... VFORCE!!!!! also, z leader has been a large manufacturer of other sports equipment, including hockey facemasks (all clear plastic ones) etc etc. it really isnt a POS, unless ofcourse you would like to admit that your profiler is a POS

[Blazestorm]

I realize that, but what I'm saying is that they do make profilers to higher standards than their free brass eagle masks they give in 20 dollar walmart packages.

[VFX_Fenix]

The velocity limit we have is determined by the legal level of 'lethal energy'.

If you are shooting hot you could be shooting someone with an amount of energy determined 'lethal'.

Actually these velocity limits we have are derived from the energy required to break a human finger and we have Bud Orr to thank for them. It was determined that muzzle velocities of less than 300fps would deliver an impact with energy less than the energy required to break a phelange.

The lenses we use in paintball meet or excede ANSI Z87.1, ASTM F1776. I know that ANSI requires a .25" steel ballbearing shot at 102mph (a shade over 150 fps) nor a spike weighing 500g (1.1 lbs.) falling from 52" (roughly 18fps) and not compromise the lense or dislodge it from the frame. JT claims to shoot their lenses with a .25" ballbearing at 400fps and still have the thing in tact. I don't have an idea of how stringent the tests are for ASTM but I'd imagine they're a bit higher.

Anyway, sorry for digging up an old thread :argh:

[manike]

Actually these velocity limits we have are derived from the energy required to break a human finger and we have Bud Orr to thank for them. It was determined that muzzle velocities of less than 300fps would deliver an impact with energy less than the energy required to break a phelange.

The lenses we use in paintball meet or excede ANSI Z87.1, ASTM F1776. I know that ANSI requires a .25" steel ballbearing shot at 102mph (a shade over 150 fps) nor a spike weighing 500g (1.1 lbs.) falling from 52" (roughly 18fps) and not compromise the lense or dislodge it from the frame. JT claims to shoot their lenses with a .25" ballbearing at 400fps and still have the thing in tact. I don't have an idea of how stringent the tests are for ASTM but I'd imagine they're a bit higher.

Anyway, sorry for digging up an old thread :argh:

The velocity limits may have been implemented by Bud but he is NOT the one who did the tests to determined the legal energy limit.

It's a standard that has been around before Bud helped set the limit in paintball. It's used in laws all over the world to differentiate between firearms and airguns and toys.

The limit is 12ftlbs of energy. It equates to over 300fps, but in order to have a factor of safety and a nice round number 300 was settled on. There was a period of time when you were allowed to chrono guns with different calibres at different velocities.

I have the ASTM standards for goggles in front of me.

We shot Vforce lenses at 800fps with a 1/4" ball bearing and there was no penetration.

[ThePixelGuru]

The campus police at my university chrony their Pro-Carbines to 400FPS. Not sure if that's standard, but that's what they do. Anyway, they're all well above 300FPS regardless of where it is. At that speed, it's classified as a "less-lethal" weapon. It's not non-lethal anymore, and police recognize the ability of these markers to injure and kill people. Still, it's better than rubber bullets or whatever, so that's why they use them.

Anyone who chronies to above 300FPS and declares that it's still safe is a moron. Sorry to revive this topic (uh, re-revive?) but I felt that needed mentioning.