Official Deadlywind hAir trigger update

[nicad]

Sorry to keep everyone waiting, but here is an update on our hAir trigger
product.

As some of you have heard, our progress has been slowed by some legal
hurdles. The problem we ran into is that Pro-Team Products was recently
granted a patent on assisted trigger mechanisms for paintball markers.
Pro-Team insists that we are infringing this patent, and although we
disagree with them, we have tried to cooperate so we can get the product
released. We've been advised that our remaining options are expensive ones,
and since we have already overspent resources in the development of this
product, we have decided to shelve it for now and focus on our other
projects.

Again, we apologize for keeping everyone waiting on this. We do hope to revive this in the future, either when we can again justify allocating resources, or once we form partnerships that enable us to do so.

Colin Moritz
Deadlywind

[danoxide]

awwwwww man...so is proteams going to release there verson of the hAir?

[hitech]

Sorry to hear that. I assume that the patent application was denied?

[BigBadBeDDy]

:( i'm a sad panda :(

[teufelhunden]

Sorry to hear that. I assume that the patent application was denied?

Yes, obviously, since one very similiar was already issued to PTP.

Well, hopefully now something can hit the market. While it sucks for Colin and DW, the consumer won't care, because their slow gun will now go fast.

[Vanced]

:( * Hears taps quietly being played in the background*

[barrel break]

aaaaaawwww
This was gonna be my reason to save for a mag.
well, good luck on the other projects!

[XbeasleyX]

I have been expecting this sort of news. :ninja:

[252]

:(

*cries*

[Eric Cartman]

I'm sorry to hear that. I just ordered a B2K4 and I was sure that action would result in the imminent release of the hAir. Too bad it went the other way.


We do hope to revive this in the future, either when we can again justify allocating resources, or once we form partnerships that enable us to do so

Good luck with that!

[Magaman]

Things will work out for you in the end... Thanks for the update bud... ;)

[Boski51]

.....As the game slowly starts to die, the patent wars heats up. Soon the companies will start buying up each other and the "business" of paintball will replace the "sport" of paintball. Players will become consumers or target demo groups whos disposible income will be duly disposed of.

The business of paintball will sell its soul to TV and insurance companies and the business of paintball will be big, flashy and soul-less..... As the game continues to die, we will be encouraged to buy the fastest, hottest, sexyest markers that can waste paint at wallet destroying speeds. A hotter or better marker will be released the following month to keep the cash flowing from the consumers to the businesses. The consumers will start focusing on sponsership to help pay for the rediculously expensive paint and the $1,700 sexy spyders and will loose focus on things like rules, responsibility and fair play.

The great game that was born in the woods will die in the boardroom and what is sad is only a few will ever notice.....

OK, I am off my soap box. Let the flame throwing begin!

[danoxide]

.....As the game slowly starts to die, the patent wars heats up. Soon the companies will start buying up each other and the "business" of paintball will replace the "sport" of paintball. Players will become consumers or target demo groups whos disposible income will be duly disposed of.

The business of paintball will sell its soul to TV and insurance companies and the business of paintball will be big, flashy and soul-less..... As the game continues to die, we will be encouraged to buy the fastest, hottest, sexyest markers that can waste paint at wallet destroying speeds. A hotter or better marker will be released the following month to keep the cash flowing from the consumers to the businesses. The consumers will start focusing on sponsership to help pay for the rediculously expensive paint and the $1,700 sexy spyders and will loose focus on things like rules, responsibility and fair play.

The great game that was born in the woods will die in the boardroom and what is sad is only a few will ever notice.....

OK, I am off my soap box. Let the flame throwing begin!


not guna flame, but i am going to say this....isn't that taking it alittle to far?

[hitech]

...isn't that taking it alittle to far?
No, not really. Other than the color commentary, isn't that what is happening?

[teufelhunden]

.....As the game slowly starts to die, the patent wars heats up. Soon the companies will start buying up each other and the "business" of paintball will replace the "sport" of paintball. Players will become consumers or target demo groups whos disposible income will be duly disposed of.

The business of paintball will sell its soul to TV and insurance companies and the business of paintball will be big, flashy and soul-less..... As the game continues to die, we will be encouraged to buy the fastest, hottest, sexyest markers that can waste paint at wallet destroying speeds. A hotter or better marker will be released the following month to keep the cash flowing from the consumers to the businesses. The consumers will start focusing on sponsership to help pay for the rediculously expensive paint and the $1,700 sexy spyders and will loose focus on things like rules, responsibility and fair play.

The great game that was born in the woods will die in the boardroom and what is sad is only a few will ever notice.....

OK, I am off my soap box. Let the flame throwing begin!


I've said it before, and will say it again. I'm sure I've said it better at some point, but this will suffice"


It's the same people who want[ed] paintball to get big and popular and on TV that are now complaining of the side effects, namely, the fact that the paintball business got big and big business followed.

Can't have it both ways. Shut up and play, or have a hissy fit and don't play. Can't have it both ways.

[Coray]

aw man :cry: thanks for the update I was wondering about this today

[peewee]

Sorry to hear it... Well lets hope PTP comes thru.

[nicad]

No, our patent was not denied.. (amazing how speculation is so easily stated as fact).
It is still going forward. It has been filed, in the system, and all that good stuff.

The decision is based compleatly on the financial/resources aspect.

[MiniSpdRcr]

:( :( :( :( :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[WenULiVeUdiE]

:eek: :cry: :( :(
I wanted this to come out badly. But deep down, I knew there was a small chance it would.

[hitech]

No, our patent was not denied..

Good. I assume that if the patent is ever issued you would consider producing it? It seems like it would be worthwhile... barring any lawsuits...

Good luck, I hope it makes it into production.


:cheers:

[ScatterPlot]

:cry:

[LudavicoSoldier]

<sigh> Oh well. Looked really cool. I am slowly but surely moving away from mags (I am keeping one). I am a whore, and I cant stand the waiting game anymore. If you ever end up producing the hAir, I'll still have a mag to slap it on.

[Fred]

:cry:

Well, guess I'll just have to go with a Devil-Mag in the mean time... I was hoping to avoid going to an E-gun, but I suppose it was inevitable...

Good effort though! :hail:

---Fred

[Banshee23]

Thanks for the update Nicad, wish it was a happier one though :(

[davidnj]

Too bad :(

Hopefully something comes out, I want a marker that can rip but I prefer it to be mech.

[-=Squid=-]

That sucks that a company as crappy as PTP ruined this for you guys. Who the hell buys from them anyways? They don't make a single cool product.

- Goro

[BD_Paintball]

i thought this would happen. o well i really didnt expect it to come out any time soon anyway

[thorn]

well thats great. thankfully i bought a freestyle on monday.

EVERYONE MAKE DONATIONS TO DW

[RetroEclipseMan]

Sorry to hear the news. Good luck in the future man.

[REDRT]

I called PTP this last summer to see if there was any Micro Emags left. They said, " to check back in '05 for a revised version". I guess they really have something going. Sorry to here the hAir isn't coming out anytime soon. Alot of people really wanted to have it. :cry:

[JoshK]

You said its a financial issue...couldnt you have all the people who want them, pay for them...then make them, and ship them off...and hopfully you are making profit (lets hope you make profit off this invention). Start producing and advertising. Sound good :)?

Well...im sad now...so :( :( :( :(

[Boski51]

It's the same people who want[ed] paintball to get big and popular and on TV that are now complaining of the side effects, namely, the fact that the paintball business got big and big business followed.

Can't have it both ways. Shut up and play, or have a hissy fit and don't play. Can't have it both ways."

Never wanted it both ways, but the cool thing about America is I can gripe about it AND still play. In this land, you CAN have it both ways! :shooting:

My point is that good small companies that put good stuff together almost always loose to larger less talented companies. Look at the pre-bust computer/dot.com companies. The big crappy ones buy, intimidate or "borrow" from the smaller more talented companies. It is the way of the world.

I just think it sucks that it all worked out this way, but it does free them up to put money into something else cool!

[bunker17]

yeah that would be nice to know how much money do we have to raise to make it posible if it si posible for the hair to come out

[50 cal]

Hang tough nicad. It takes a bit of time to get patent okayed. Maybe yours is different enough to get its own stand alone patent.

[DiSoRdeR]

Who the hell buys from them anyways? They don't make a single cool product.
Some people like Micromags, I myself own one. Seems they cant even get that right since they stoped selling them...

[-=Squid=-]

Some people like Micromags, I myself own one. Seems they cant even get that right since they stoped selling them...

Ya, the guns they had were cool in like.... 99?

- Goro

[GT]

No, our patent was not denied.. (amazing how speculation is so easily stated as fact).
It is still going forward. It has been filed, in the system, and all that good stuff.

The decision is based compleatly on the financial/resources aspect.


Intresting,
considering that I am sure the trigger could be retro fitted to other sear tippers. You think you will have more time to play? We are going to Katy paintball on saturday. PM me if you want to come.

gt

[the larch]

stupid swear filter. Was really looking forward to this. Guess I'm putting the mag on the back burner now.

[phishphen]

Man!!!!,.........!@&k !!!!!!

[shatter_storm]

A shame you had to call it quits on the project. Actually, I'm sad to hear it - the news just ruined my week. I was so looking forward to something like this becoming a revolutionary product and bringing mechanical markers back into style.



In related news, anyone want to buy a dallara 'mag? She's reached her limit now as far as upgrading goes - since I can't spend money on her I think I'mma have to buy a 'cocker to endlessly swap parts on. :cry:

[M-a-s-sDriver]

To Boski: The Hair-type trigger will be as much to blame for the corperate upsizing of paintball as the electronic gun. These devices enable new players to appear to play well beyond thier capabilities. You can stop some of this by not participating. Do what I do. Go buy a nice high-end pump, CCM, CCI, Carter, PPS, whatever, and keep YOUR GAME tight.
I see you are in SAC. Look for a Pump-day, and pure pump series starting at Combat-Zone.
Brent.

[rabidchihauhau]

...or you could say that the upsizing of the industry - through acquisition, licensing and purchasing allows the small guys to do things they otherwise could not afford.

[Wc Keep]

well its a shame that this happened. but at least now one of the two triggers will be released. and ptp does make good stuff, but how many people are actually going to now give it a chance?

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

No, not really. Other than the color commentary, isn't that what is happening?
Agreed! :( :mad: :cuss:

[Eric Cartman]

well its a shame that this happened. but at least now one of the two triggers will be released. and ptp does make good stuff, but how many people are actually going to now give it a chance?

I think that's up to PTP. As long as the product they release is good quality. and they stand behind it, I'd imagine there would be plenty of people willing to give it a chance. Myself included.
There are some companies who have done things that a lot of the paintball community finds distasteful & dishonest and yet their sales have been unaffected by their actions.
While many people here on AO are dissapointed with what's happened between DW and PTP, I don't think anyone can logically accuse PTP of doing anything wrong here, so I can't imagine this having any negative repercussions for them... as long as it's a quality product.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

I think that's up to PTP. As long as the product they release is good quality. and they stand behind it, I'd imagine there would be plenty of people willing to give it a chance. Myself included.
There are some companies who have done things that a lot of the paintball community finds distasteful & dishonest and yet their sales have been unaffected by their actions.
While many people here on AO are dissapointed with what's happened between DW and PTP, I don't think anyone can logically accuse PTP of doing anything wrong here, so I can't imagine this having any negative repercussions for them... as long as it's a quality product.
I don't think that they even said it was coming out for the 'Mag. I heard it was for a 'Cocker. We'll just have to wait and see......

[Eric Cartman]

I don't think that they even said it was coming out for the 'Mag. I heard it was for a 'Cocker. We'll just have to wait and see......

Yeah they said they were concentrating on the cocker version first with a mag version to follow (who knows when though). I'll try to find the quote later.

About three quarters of the way down the page:
http://www.air-powered.com/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=21526&st=30

"Pretty soon video of the mag version and the blowback semi-auto version will be made available (and man, that thing rocks like you literally wouldn't believe!!!)
"

[WARPED1]

aaaaaawwww
This was gonna be my reason to save for a mag.
well, good luck on the other projects!
Duh, you can get the PTP one when released! :tard:

[peewee]

I have spoke with PTP specifically about the trigger for the mag & it is coming out in fact you will be able to buy it separate or get a micro with it on. The cocker will be first due to the fact that it was the first marker that they had tried it on. I started a thread a while back about it .

[peewee]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159158

[danoxide]

does anyone know if the PTP hAir is going to used in an intell(or look alike frame) like DW's was?

[Boski51]

To Boski: The Hair-type trigger will be as much to blame for the corperate upsizing of paintball as the electronic gun. These devices enable new players to appear to play well beyond thier capabilities. You can stop some of this by not participating. Do what I do. Go buy a nice high-end pump, CCM, CCI, Carter, PPS, whatever, and keep YOUR GAME tight.
I see you are in SAC. Look for a Pump-day, and pure pump series starting at Combat-Zone.
Brent.

I am not as anti growth as the post states, I was just trying to bring up an obvious point about the direction of our game. To me it is just a game-and I love it that way!

You are so right about the pumps! That is exactly were I am going with my game. In fact that is why I sold off my electro cocker, Angel and Matrix-to get away from the spray and pray way of playing and bought a mech Mag. I am looking at getting a pump as we speak and once I get it, I'll be at the next Pump day!

[Mr. Mouse]

that sucks, could i like buy it from ptp then send it to you dw guys so you can make it better cause ptp puts out crap stuff

[Thordic]

This really is kinda sad, but now thats its official, we might as well hound PTP so we get SOMETHING out of this. If they lock down Colin and then take forever to get their frame released for the mag, then we, the customers, are getting screwed.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1740851#post1740851

[Skoad]

so nicad, can you say - is PTP wanting some kind of fee? If so, how much?

[GT]

If they lock down Colin and then take forever to get their frame released for the mag, then we, the customers, are getting screwed.



I dont understand the hate? How are the consumers getting screwed? My emag seems to work just fine given recent "changes" in the industry. Heck if you really want to rip faces order a Devil. What better way to support our AO dealership than buy a gun built, tested, and tuned by AO kulties.

[JoshK]

well...why would you want a electro gun when you can have a mech gun that shoots as light as a elec? Plus...i would rather pay `250 than `500

[edweird]

sad very sad... I guess we can mark this up to another case of suppressed advancement of technology due to more corprate micromanagement of the legal system.

farewell for now hAir frame, while your in the closet of supressed technology say hi to the 100 MPG car, h2o powered engine and cold fusion. When did paintball become more about the lawyers and start looking more like the oil industy?

[DiSoRdeR]

I have spoke with PTP specifically about the trigger for the mag & it is coming out in fact you will be able to buy it separate or get a micro with it on.

Looks like I will be buying another Micromag. Thought they discontinued them though, I have always loved Micros, do you know if there will be a new version of it?

[Thordic]

I dont understand the hate? How are the consumers getting screwed?

Where do you see hate? I don't hate PTP.

But if you block a product from coming out on the market because you have a similar product, you had better come out with that product soon or you are going to piss of a whole lot of customers.

You people don't understand that the BUYERS control the market, not the manufacturers.

[Thordic]

Did you even read what I wrote?

I don't want PTP to not release their product, I WANT them to release it, ASAP. Reading comprehension is a useful skill. You learn it in grammar school.

[edweird]

I see it like this...

caveman 1 and 2 make similar wheels using objects already in existance ie 3 ways and other nifty phenumatic tomfoolery. caveman 1's product is uber good yet caveman 2's is nice but his squad of meathead lawyers prevent the release of the ubersause wheel cause they know they will be depantsed in the free market economy. aka if ptp was willing to stand behind their product they would try and compete head on instead of cockblocking.

so with that outta the way, enjoy your square wheels all, for im a whore for quality.

[50 cal]

Paintball has finally grown into a big enough industry that you will need to look out for your backside. If you have an idea, patent it and get it ready for market. It's a hard truth, but it's the truth like it or not.

[ScatterPlot]

I wonder if DW could make just the special valve for the gun, then somebody else like coolhand or someone could make the cylinders and install them for people, who could then put on their own reg :D

[rabidchihauhau]

you can't assemble an infringing product from non-infringing components without infringing on the patent.

edweird - have you shot either system? If not, how can you state that one is 'uber' and one is not? (You may have shot the hAir, but I know you haven't shot the pneutrigger.)

In the real world, PTP INVENTED this system. DW re-invented it. The proof is in the history.

[Creative Mayhem]

Without getting all up in arms over who's right and whos wrong, I just have a couple things to say. You can take it at whatever value you see fit.

Edweird was simply making a general statement. He and the rest of AFTICA(myself included) used DW's hAIR trigger at IAO last year, and it truely was awesome. Myself, and the others who have tried the hAIR, obviously have no point of comparison, but we can hope that PTP's version will be out soon and as reliable as the one DW has made.

Which brings me back to Ed's comment, he may have hinted to the Pneutrigger being inferior, he was simply stating that he wants quality(as do all of us) and to be honest, i have seen more than a few PTP products with less than spectacular quality. Does this mean that the PTP trigger will suck? Not at all, its just a desire that the quality will be there if there is intent to hold a proven design for mags at bay.

This is also the reason why there has been a letter writing campaign started, we aren't happy with the situation, but we are trying to accept and give PTP a chance to help those that wish to have a high ROF mech mag.

[nicad]

1. the hAir was mechanically complicated; the Pneutrigger has MUCH better engineering
2. the hAir was relatively expensive to manufacture; the Pneutrigger design took mfg into consideration and is easier/simpler to manufacture
3. the hAir is a 'concept' design (let's see what we can do): the Pneutrigger was purpose-built to achieve a series of design goals, was approached in a phased manner and has many, many generations of development built into the idea. There were engineering requirements for things like safety, cross-platform application, etc., that were taken into consideration before the first screw was set.
..
..
edweird - have you shot either system? If not, how can you state that one is 'uber' and one is not? (You may have shot the hAir, but I know you haven't shot the pneutrigger.)


rabidchihauhau- There are 4 people outside of DW who know the insides of the hAir. You are not one of them. Please quit talking about how it works.



In the real world, PTP INVENTED this system. DW re-invented it. The proof is in the history.
..
..
I'm sorry if they and you think that they invented the damn thing first, but I am here to tell you that the genesis for PTP's work on the idea dates back to pre-2000 days and DW are not the only people in the world who are capable of inventing cool high-tec for paintball.


this "idea"-- pneumatic triggers?
Like the Southern Pneumatics Inc. "Phoenix" in 1992?
Or The "Omega" in 1995? (known now as the Matrix).
Bruce's "Nova 700" in 1997?
Lee Kinney's (known as Punisher) “P-mag” in 1995?

DW never claimed to have invented pneumatic triggers, we simply made one that works well.

Are you still associated with PTP?

[skife]

Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau

In the real world, PTP INVENTED this system. DW re-invented it. The proof is in the history.
..
..
I'm sorry if they and you think that they invented the damn thing first, but I am here to tell you that the genesis for PTP's work on the idea dates back to pre-2000 days and DW are not the only people in the world who are capable of inventing cool high-tec for paintball.





since when were rams, valves and hoses high-tech?

i've got an idea in my head about how the hAir Works, i'm not sure if its right or not, but i'd like to think it is, in my head, its reletively simpe and the technology has been around since the early 90's

[Maghog]

It is so sad to watch paintball deteriorate,
Dan

[rabidchihauhau]

I'm not 'up in arms' about this thing, but I am personally annoyed about it. Why?

Here's why.

PTP has spent YEARS being ripped off by other people. I can't even begin to tell you how much of what every player uses on a daily basis was originally designed and brought to market FIRST by PTP - only to have it copied, ripped off, etc., by other companies.

During all of that time (15+ years in the industry) the company NEVER took retaliatory measures - they sucked it up and kept moving forward.

Percentage wise, PTP has offered more support and aid to beginning teams and tournament series than just about anyone I can think of; among other things, it was one of the first, if not the first sponsor on board with institutions like the IAO, NPPL, the Memphis Indoor, Jax Warriors, Team Strange, etc. Often in circumstances where it could ill-afford those expenses, but it went ahead and did it anyway to support the industry and the players.

PTP puts a LARGE percentage of its effort and dollars into safety - more so than the vast majority; they are in large part responsible for things like the goggle standards, the requirement for a trigger guard on all guns, standardizing the weight of paint and, again, making untold numbers of substantial contributions at their own time and expense.

Then, after all of the foregoing, PTP had to face the reality that they could not continue to support such efforts without making some changes, one of which was to start investing in intellectual property protection for their concepts and designs.

That, too, carried with it a tremendous investment in time and dollars; it was done the right way, with the intention of using it to protect PTP's investments and never done to 'do' other people.

So far, PTP has engaged in numerous IP negotiations with other paintball companies - none of which have been seen by the public, none of which have raised an eyebrow or caused anyone to question PTP's motives - at least one of which contributed greatly to the the 'Automag cause'. (It was PTP's patent that become the E-Mag...)

This thing, however, has gone way beyond all reason: people with little or no ability to be able to compare two products side-by-side making claims of superiority: people with little or no experience with business trying to tell PTP what to do with ITS dollars, time and resources: people with no knowledge of the history of this thing casting PTP in the role of 'bad guy': people with absolutely no knowledge of intellectual property law making snap judgements about PTP's motives.

And why? two reasons. DW decided to hype their product (the future of which was not secured even for manufacturing by DW at the time) and a bunch of people decided to make them the 'good guys', for no apparent reason other than they were 'promising' to deliver something that would 'save' the automag. Even if you go back to DW's own postings on the subject, there was NEVER any guarantee of if or when it would be on the market.

And the second reason? PTP's own reluctance to get on here and tell you all what has really happened behind the scenes. Its not anyone else's business but the parties involved. I can say, however, that PTP has entered into GOOD FAITH negotiations with anyone who was interested in pursuing such things.

So yeah, I'm pissed off at the way these threads have gone. You all ought to be grateful that I'm not the one that owns the patent; I'm much more cut-throat than the folks at PTP (as in, they aren't cut-throat AT ALL.)

I'm pissed at the way a company that I worked for for 7+ years is being portrayed, when I know from personal experience (and some degree of frustration) that PTP is anything BUT the kind of company some of you all have described it as, and it galls me on a daily basis to have to sift through the utter idiocy that I read in here. Talk about swallowing things hook, line AND sinker!

[Magaman]

In the real world, PTP INVENTED this system. DW re-invented it. The proof is in the history.

Um, Yeah, just because USA (America) developed a patent system and someone claims to have invented it first, doesn't mean that the other people inventing it "Re-Invented" anything.

If you have one guy in Texas and another Guy in Australia and they both invent a pneumatic assisted beer drinking straw . The Texas guy walks down to the local patent office and the Australian guy never patents it. Does it meant that the Australian guys product is now only re-invented and not His Own original Idea? Or what about a Poor guy that invents something and a Rich dude pays some less than rich people to invent something for him. The Rich guy has the means to pay a team of patent lawyers to make up a Ironclad patent while the poor guy is lucky to afford the materials to make his first prototype and put a copy of the plans with a picture of it in a Dated Safety Deposit Box... Does that Mean that the poor guy re-invented the rich dudes product...

If your going to Quote Voltaire then you should also try to open your eyes a bit...

[rabidchihauhau]

and, Colin, no, I'm not still with PTP. If you have issues, they're with me, not them.

I still stand by my invented statement. The things you mentioned were different designs and/or merely components.

My statement about mechanical reliability and manufacturing issues was based on Mr. Kayes own assessment.

[rabidchihauhau]

magaman,

open your eyes: I'm talking about the invention as it relates to what PTP has a patent on.

and your poor guy who invents something but can't afford to protect it is the way it used to be but isn't anymore. You can get protection for under $100.

Besides, you're another one who doesn't understand IP; the guy in australia can get an australian patent issued; if he and the guy in texas both apply for international protection, THEN it comes down to priority date (who got there first).

If there were NO patents, it would always be the big bad guy with money winning every time.

[hitech]

If there were NO patents, it would always be the big bad guy with money winning every time.

Even with them it still usually is. History is full of examples, all the way back to the Wright Brothers... :mad:

[Muzikman]

and your poor guy who invents something but can't afford to protect it is the way it used to be but isn't anymore. You can get protection for under $100.



I don't know where you got that number from. Let me tell you, no matter what, it's more expensive than $100 for a patent.

[Magaman]

magaman,

open your eyes: I'm talking about the invention as it relates to what PTP has a patent on.

and your poor guy who invents something but can't afford to protect it is the way it used to be but isn't anymore. You can get protection for under $100.

Besides, you're another one who doesn't understand IP; the guy in australia can get an australian patent issued; if he and the guy in texas both apply for international protection, THEN it comes down to priority date (who got there first).

If there were NO patents, it would always be the big bad guy with money winning every time.

You missed my point, I'm saying that DW didn't reinvent anything. It's not like they went down to PTP and stole the prints, they made there own version as did PTP...

I just hate it when people are blind to the fact that more than one person can invent something that is the same and just because someone got lucky enough to get there idea in the patent office first, it means that everyone else only re-invented the patented product...

I say open your eyes because I hate it when people quote Voltaire, but never look at life thru Voltaires eyes, they only quote him and try to look open eyed. People need to look at the "Real World", not Corporate America.

[Magaman]

It double posted... Computer Freeze...

[Fanatic]

here is an idea

i know this would be a long shot but hell froze over when tom quit anyway...so

is it possible to sell the hair trigger to PTP so it will be released anyway
i mean nicad can still do what he does best...er...assemble the frame for PTP
it would only be a PTP frame but 99percent hair
both parties would somehow benefit from it
it would still be bought out by mag owners worldwide

oh well...just my 2cents

[Muzikman]

here is an idea

i know this would be a long shot but hell froze over when tom quit anyway...so

is it possible to sell the hair trigger to PTP so it will be released anyway
i mean nicad can still do what he does best...er...assemble the frame for PTP
it would only be a PTP frame but 99percent hair
both parties would somehow benefit from it
it would still be bought out by mag owners worldwide

oh well...just my 2cents


Well, that would be a odd way for a licensing agreement. It comes down to money, PTP got a little, DW does not. Now....If DW would sell the frame for say, $1000 each, I am sure they could afford to produce the frame and pay PTP the fee's they require.

**The numbers are just pulled out of my head, I have no idea what PTP wants as a licensing fee, nor do I know that it costs DW to produce the frames.


I am just shocked that for the long running relationshsip AGD had with PTP that a better agreement could not be reached.

[spantol]

I am just shocked that for the long running relationshsip AGD had with PTP that a better agreement could not be reached.

That has me scratching my head, too. I don't think that we've heard anything from AGD on this subject for quite some time, though. I hate to suggest it, but maybe an agreement was reached, just one that didn't involve Deadlywind.

[Muzikman]

That has me scratching my head, too. I don't think that we've heard anything from AGD on this subject for quite some time, though. I hate to suggest it, but maybe an agreement was reached, just one that didn't involve Deadlywind.


Well, I do not know for sure, but I think AGD bailed on DW. I don't blame them, but I think an agreement would have been easier.

[Lohman446]

I think that you will find TKs relationship with PTP did pay off. They were looking into the hAIR trigger and I expect PTP at that point said something - it likely saved DW and AGD a lot of time getting down the details on soemthing that they may have not been able to produce.

[rabidchihauhau]

muzikman - nope, I do it all the time. $100 bucks (filing fee and postage). I know this because I have filed numerous, numerous, numerous applications over the past several years. Several of those applications have resulted in grants. If you want to spend some time at the PTO's website, you can figure it out for yourself.

Lohman - birdies tweeting in your ear?

[rabidchihauhau]

magaman,

I agree, it is possible for people to come up with the same idea independantly; what the heck does that have to do with Voltaire? (Who I read in college, btw. Quoting someone in a sig is usually done because the quote has something to do with the person, not necessarily what is contained in the body of any given message.)

However, given the context of - PTP is WRONG-BAD-NAUGHTY and DW is GREAT-WONDERFUL-TERRIFIC, I have no qualms about exaggerating a little from the other side of the fence.

This, however, was not a case of dual invention at different locations followed by a rush to the patent office, it was a case of one invention preceding another by a good many years, so I suppose that it would be most accurate to describe the situation as one of 'independent re-invention'.

The folks who talk about 'what about this trigger', 'what about this gun' (all of which supposedly came before the PTP trigger) don't understand that while there may be seeming similarity in the invention's performance, the engineering is totally different, the purpose of the application was not just a pneumatic trigger switch and that all of the supposed 'prior' art has been extensively reviewed at this point by many different people, all of whom dropped the 'prior art' claim because they discovered what the PTO knows; the PTP trigger is a new piece of engineering, achieves its design goals in a unique manner and was worthy of a patent grant because there WAS NO prior art. In fact, the application was carefully written so that it would not cover prior art.

If you want to figure out why - go read the application. Its publicly available. I can not, however, be held responsible for any lack of comprehension that might result.

[Muzikman]

muzikman - nope, I do it all the time. $100 bucks (filing fee and postage). I know this because I have filed numerous, numerous, numerous applications over the past several years. Several of those applications have resulted in grants. If you want to spend some time at the PTO's website, you can figure it out for yourself.

Lohman - birdies tweeting in your ear?


Show me where you can get a US Patent for $100. Even if you did EVERYTHING yourself, the filing fee alone is over $400.

[Automaggot68]

I have spoke with PTP specifically about the trigger for the mag & it is coming out in fact you will be able to buy it separate or get a micro with it on. The cocker will be first due to the fact that it was the first marker that they had tried it on. I started a thread a while back about it .

You know, I speak with Jay Fireblade on a Daily basis, and even considering his posts on the original hAir trigger thread, you are full of BS.

[rabidchihauhau]

Muzikman:

I did not say an issued patent. here's what I did say:

"I have filed numerous, numerous, numerous applications over the past several years."

and, originally:

"You can get protection for under $100"

I'll not reveal my secret - even though its publicly available at www.uspto.gov. I'll let you figure it out for yourself.

If you want to talk about getting a GRANT and the cost to see it through from application to granting, then even your 400 is too low an estimate: filing fees are based on the total number of claims as well as the number of independent claims and a few other factors as well (such as the kind of utility application, expedited, etc.) and you can expect, even when filing yourself, to pay several thousand dollars in application and publication fees, dollars for drawings, dollars for searching and, in the end, dollars for a patent attorney to clean up the mess you made yourself.

But that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about a low cost system that was put specifically in place for the 'poor' inventor.

[spantol]

I'm told you can file a provisional application (http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/provapp.htm) for $80. I'm assuming this is what he's referring to.

[Muzikman]

Trust me, I understand the patent process, I currently have over $15K invested so far with no end in sight.

(No, they are not paintball patents)



Muzikman:

I did not say an issued patent. here's what I did say:

"I have filed numerous, numerous, numerous applications over the past several years."

and, originally:

"You can get protection for under $100"

I'll not reveal my secret - even though its publicly available at www.uspto.gov. I'll let you figure it out for yourself.

If you want to talk about getting a GRANT and the cost to see it through from application to granting, then even your 400 is too low an estimate: filing fees are based on the total number of claims as well as the number of independent claims and a few other factors as well (such as the kind of utility application, expedited, etc.) and you can expect, even when filing yourself, to pay several thousand dollars in application and publication fees, dollars for drawings, dollars for searching and, in the end, dollars for a patent attorney to clean up the mess you made yourself.

But that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about a low cost system that was put specifically in place for the 'poor' inventor.

[Wc Keep]

who gives a rats *** about all this patent bull****. its not going to change the fact that dw will not be releasing their product. cant we all anxiously await the release of the pnuetrigger now?

[Muzikman]

cant we all anxiously await the release of the pnuetrigger now?


That's what most have been doing for the last year or so.

[Wc Keep]

That's what most have been doing for the last year or so.


no youve all been anxiously awaiting the hair trigger. now that thats not released anymore drop it and lets all wait for ptp's.

i bet you all those who were waiting for the hair could care less about ptp's.........

[bunker17]

im going to get this out of my chest eve if i get flamed we should be talking about paintball instead of patents lawyers and companies sueing each other all the time this seems sometimes like a discuss the new business in court type of forum :mad: okay with that out of the way i can move on in my life

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

no youve all been anxiously awaiting the hair trigger. now that thats not released anymore drop it and lets all wait for ptp's.

i bet you all those who were waiting for the hair could care less about ptp's.........
I bet most people that said they would buy the hAir upon release wouldn't even pony up the money. As for many products that were hyped on AO........................... ;)

[Wc Keep]

I bet most people that said they would buy the hAir upon release wouldn't even pony up the money. As for many products that were hyped on AO........................... ;)

sad thing is your extremely right cause look how many people said they wanted a pride jersey and never bought them.

[atm743]

hey i have an idea you can sell them as a secrit :D

jest find a way that you can pm everyone at once saying that you have them for sale no one will know but us that you are selling them.

[shatter_storm]

rant:on


I bet most people that said they would buy the hAir upon release wouldn't even pony up the money. As for many products that were hyped on AO........................... ;)

I've been holding a few hundred dollars in my bank account for this very purpose. When nicad said the hAir was cancelled, I spent it on a new profiler, another barrel kit tip, and a couple of days skiing upcountry. Would I have been happier spending it on the hAir? Yes, the snow really sucked and I didn't really need a 10" tip. Would I have actually spent it on the hAir? In a heartbeat. Will I buy the pneumag trigger? Not at first.

You see, I've had prior experience with deadlywind's products - I bought a dallara body kit. It's well made. It's *beautiful*. It does what I expect. The price is high, but I'm a firm believer in paying for quality.

I've also had prior experience with pro-team products' stuff. I've owned and shot a stealth barrel, I was going to buy another one (or two, for a project mag). I've seen, used, and sold a lot of the f/x gear they make for tippmann's markers. I've used the warp feed adapter, I've mounted a few PTP warp feed kits to markers. The company as a whole leaves me with a good experience, but there's nothing stellar about it, nothing really stands out.

AGD gives me the warm fuzzies, DW gives me the warm fuzzies. Proteam doesn't, for whatever reason. So I'll support the companies in that way - I'd be one of the first in line to pay $500 for a hAir trigger from DW, or a hAir trigger from AGD, because I know neither Colin nor Tom would settle for anything less than high quality gear. I won't do that for proteam, because the blind fanatical trust hasn't settled in yet. Once I'm convinced that they are a company that produces an excellent product all of the time and will stand behind their stuff (not like they havn't in the past, but they've just been yet-another-company), and once I'm convinced that their pneumatic frame works and will be supported, then I'll buy one.


No offense PTP, but just look at the way the two frames are presented to us, the consumer. There's the DW hAir trigger, shown in a *well* *made* video, displaying the trigger action and it's rapid fire capabilities. Then there's the PTP autococker frame video, which isn't the best quality (I know, not a hype video, only had a digicam), which doesn't convey the same impression and is for the *autococker*. I know which one makes me want to buy the product now, and I know which one makes me go "meh".

I know autocockers are used more often than mags, I know it's a more "target-rich" market, and I know it makes no financial sense to develop a frame like this for a mag first. However, I own a mag, I have money, and I want a pneumatic frame for my marker. One of you two companies needs to work out all the little details, launch a hype campaign (again), and then make yourselves rich off of people like me. And you'd best do it soon, before I build my own darn pneumatic frame.

rant:off

[snake_eater]

hAIR=R.A.I.L :mad:

PTP :headbang:

c'mon guys.... do it

[Renegade_Azzy]

this "idea"-- pneumatic triggers?
Like the Southern Pneumatics Inc. "Phoenix" in 1992?
Or The "Omega" in 1995? (known now as the Matrix).
Bruce's "Nova 700" in 1997?
Lee Kinney's (known as Punisher) “P-mag” in 1995?

DW never claimed to have invented pneumatic triggers, we simply made one that works well.




Don't forget the Sheridan Equalizer, as well as the Air Power Vector.

Wonder if Crosman likes someone patenting their intellectual property... you might be able to strike a deal with them, and have their weight to put behind this.

(Which brings the question.. does BE own the properties of the Vector from the Rainmaker patent?)

Just an idea :) Good luck either way.

[j.storm]

hey i have an idea you can sell them as a secrit :D

jest find a way that you can pm everyone at once saying that you have them for sale no one will know but us that you are selling them.

Would that even be legal? I don't think a personal, friend to friend "shop" upgrade would infringe a patant would it? ....not that most folks would want to even deal with that. Nicad's computer would probably explode from all the incoming email :)

[jinxed]

The problem we ran into is that Pro-Team Products was recently
granted a patent on assisted trigger mechanisms for paintball markers.

Given the number of guns with pneumatic triggers in the 90s, as well as all the guns modified to have pneumatic triggers in the 90s (ie reversed cockers), the PTP patent seems to be about as valid as.... that guy who managed to patent the AGD "powerfeed" a few years ago.

It has all been done. Hard to see what legal standing PTP has, other then holding an obviously illegitimate patent.

But, the sad thruth has become NOT who is "right" but who has the most legal muscle to make demands. Paintball has truely reached the status of "rotten to the core".

-Nick
-New England Devil Dogs

[j.storm]

Jinxed -- "Paintball has truely reached the status of "rotten to the core".

so what your saying is that it's just like every over industry in the world ;)

[rabidchihauhau]

J storm,

Yes, it would. Patents confer the right to prevent others from making, distributing, etc the product.

That includes: copying it directly and selling it, making your own 'just for personal use', modifying something else into a form that infringes or selling components that, when assembled, infringe.

On the 'pneumatic triggers'; yes, yes, yes, there were plenty of guns that used pneumatic triggers; all of them were examined and discussed prior to filing the application, none of them are 'prior art' for the PTP patent.

I know that facts and reality can be annoying and that we often try to ignore them, but they're there nonetheless.

[j.storm]

ah. "I see" said the blind man. :D

[hitech]

That includes: ...making your own 'just for personal use'...

I do not believe you are correct. As I understand it you can sue for damages. What damages are there? I do not believe there has EVER been a successfull lawsuit against someone for making a patented product for their own use.

[rabidchihauhau]

Hitech,

here it is right from the patent office:


a patent confers -

“the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling” the invention in the United States or “importing” the invention into the United States"

Note that there are separate listings for making, using and 'offering for sale'.

This means that they are viewed as separate activities and are SPECIFICALLY and individually covered.

That means, it doesn't matter whether your intent is to market the thing or not: you can not build one and stick it in a closet, you can't use one without permission (buying a licensed copy or one from the patent holder gives you the right to use it) and you can't make one for re-sale.

I can assure you that if people were making enough of them for their own individual use, and it had enough impact on the marketplace, the patent holder would do everyone they could identify.

If I were concerned about such a thing, I would post a scrutineer at every major event, after serving the promoter with notice that THEY would be held responsible for allowing infringing activity, unless they prevented any homemade versions from coming onto the grounds. I'd also have the right to seize each and every one of those guns.

You're right on a small scale; but small scale of stolen property has a way of becoming big scale, and at that point things would begin to happen.

[Eric Cartman]

...I'd also have the right to seize each and every one of those guns...


So does that mean that you can go and seize RobAGD's and Colin's hAirs?

[Thordic]

I'm sorry, but you are starting to really piss me off.

First, you kill Colin's hAir. Fine, thats all well and good and legal.

Second, you most likely won't have a production version of your frame available within the next year IF EVER.

Now you start threatening people who are interested in making their own since you are KILLING any hope of getting one soon from anyone.

It seems to me you just patented this with the hopes of licensing it. "Patent Squatting" until someones pays you to make their own product.

So go screw. I hope blueprints leak, because you don't have the cash to patrol every tournament and big/scenario game in the US. And what are you going to sue the average paintballer for? How much damages do you expect to settle for from your average guy? Or just enough to piss everyone off?

If I made a Pneutrigger and you tried to sieze it, Id have you thrown in jail for theft, or I'd kick your ***. I'm not sure which.

[Wc Keep]

guys remember that rabid does not work for ptp at the moment. he is just stating facts about the patent process. in no way is it official word from ptp.

this is what happens when you say drop it and everyone and their mother keeps *****ing about it. people get their panties all in a bunch. Who Cares keep playing paintball.

[Thordic]

I don't care if he works for god himself, hes still being an @$%.


I'd also have the right to seize each and every one of those guns.

He's not making any friends with statements like these.

[hitech]

I understand that the law does not allow anyone to make one. However, isn't the only remedy allowed is the recovery of damages? And what damages are there? Wouldn't the patent holder have to show that "I" would have bought one if I hadn't built it myself?

And you would not be able to seize equipment at an event. Not without more than your personal belief that it is covered by your patent.

Come on guys; let's keep this civil. It is an interesting discussion in which we ALL can learn something. :D

[Lohman446]

. I'd also have the right to seize each and every one of those guns.




Wrong.. you would have the right to ask a court to seize them - but you do not have the right to seize them for infringement without first getting a court order. And then it is likely you could only seize the infrining part (IE WDP suit to seize Shocker grip frames), unless your now claiming a patent to the marker as well?

Now, read all of my posts... I don't know enough about the iternal workings of any of the companies involved to make judgement on the entire idea... but statements like these let me make a judgement of a company as a whole - regardless of there legal rights.

Edit: read late that Rabid does not work for PTP... I applaud PTP, AGD, TK, and Nicad for staying out of this discussion. Few of the people one these boards, myself included, have the business, mechanical, and patent knowledge to make judgement on this issue given some, or for that matter all of the facts surrounding the various factors in these decisions.

[RRfireblade]

I do not believe you are correct. As I understand it you can sue for damages. What damages are there? I do not believe there has EVER been a successfull lawsuit against someone for making a patented product for their own use.


One reason for a clause like that is keep someone for "infringing with no intent to sell",then they sell you a pair of grips for $200 and throw in a free grip frame.

An action such as that would create similar 'damages' as any more obvious infringments and therefore is not exempt from the Patents protections.

[Muzikman]

From what I have been told by very expensive Patent attorneys, you can not prevent someone from making the item on their own (for their own use). You can only get them for mfg, sale (or giving away) the item.

EDIT: for clarity.

[WARPED1]

.....As the game slowly starts to die, the patent wars heats up. Soon the companies will start buying up each other and the "business" of paintball will replace the "sport" of paintball. Players will become consumers or target demo groups whos disposible income will be duly disposed of.

The business of paintball will sell its soul to TV and insurance companies and the business of paintball will be big, flashy and soul-less..... As the game continues to die, we will be encouraged to buy the fastest, hottest, sexyest markers that can waste paint at wallet destroying speeds. A hotter or better marker will be released the following month to keep the cash flowing from the consumers to the businesses. The consumers will start focusing on sponsership to help pay for the rediculously expensive paint and the $1,700 sexy spyders and will loose focus on things like rules, responsibility and fair play.

The great game that was born in the woods will die in the boardroom and what is sad is only a few will ever notice.....

OK, I am off my soap box. Let the flame throwing begin! All this you have stated has already happened..........except the $1700 Spyder.

[ShooterJM]

From what I have been told by very expensive Patent attorneys, you can not prevent someone from making the item on their own (for their own use). You can only get them for mfg, sale (or giving away) the item.

That's my understanding as well.

You have to admit, it'd be pretty funny if he tried to make a people give up their markers by posting a scrutineer at every major event. Talk about backlash and killing a company through legal bills. :rofl:

[nippinout]

Thordic, I'm with you on this one.

One thing that bugs me about PTP is not knowing who the heck the man in charge is. Has he even played paintball before? Besides the Tippmann parts, I don't really see any PTP products that I've liked. The Micro wasn't the prettiest gun to look at. I just don't have much faith in PTP in making a quality frame. Prove me wrong.

[rabidchihauhau]

I USED to work for PTP. I wrote the patent applications.

Thordic - I was not saying that I would do any of those things, nor was I implying that PTP would do any of those things. I was speak from a theoretical point of view, as in, what someone could do.

If I'm guilty of anything, its of being lazy in the way that I wrote up the examples. I should have said: "from a theoretical point of view, it would be possible for a patent holder to do something like the following"

Whoever said it is right - I could not seize the guns, it would be a court order to do so. Furthermore, in actuality, if I were being an a-hole about the whole thing, my scrutineer would only be looking for the use of and providing proof of the use of infringing guns, because I would already have served the tournament series with notice. If they did nothing to prevent the use of infringing product, I would then being suing them - forcing them to take a more active stance.

On making one for yourself - it may not ever be enforced because of the impossibility of doing so, but on strict interpretation, you can't do it. I would not suggest doing it, because if it became too common, someone would take action like that mentioned above.

I'm done with discussing these issues. People can't seem to just talk about an issue without taking it personally.

[nippinout]

On making one for yourself - it may not ever be enforced because of the impossibility of doing so, but on strict interpretation, you can't do it. I would not suggest doing it, because if it became too common, someone would take action like that mentioned above.

Not even Smart Parts would think about implementing a Gestapo to patrol paintball fields for guns that infringe a patent.

[11_Mile_TMaster]

Don't forget the Sheridan Equalizer, as well as the Air Power Vector.

Wonder if Crosman likes someone patenting their intellectual property... you might be able to strike a deal with them, and have their weight to put behind this.

(Which brings the question.. does BE own the properties of the Vector from the Rainmaker patent?)

Just an idea :) Good luck either way.

I don't believe that the Vector patent is owned by Brass Eagle. The Rainmaker patent, however, lists a former Air Power employee as one of it's inventors. My assumption is that each patent was worded specicifically enough that they do not step on each others toes.
... And, uhh, I thought the Equalizer was just another Blowforward like the Mag/Badger/Armson Semi?

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

rant:on



I've been holding a few hundred dollars in my bank account for this very purpose. When nicad said the hAir was cancelled, I spent it on a new profiler, another barrel kit tip, and a couple of days skiing upcountry. Would I have been happier spending it on the hAir? Yes, the snow really sucked and I didn't really need a 10" tip. Would I have actually spent it on the hAir? In a heartbeat. Will I buy the pneumag trigger? Not at first.

You see, I've had prior experience with deadlywind's products - I bought a dallara body kit. It's well made. It's *beautiful*. It does what I expect. The price is high, but I'm a firm believer in paying for quality.

I've also had prior experience with pro-team products' stuff. I've owned and shot a stealth barrel, I was going to buy another one (or two, for a project mag). I've seen, used, and sold a lot of the f/x gear they make for tippmann's markers. I've used the warp feed adapter, I've mounted a few PTP warp feed kits to markers. The company as a whole leaves me with a good experience, but there's nothing stellar about it, nothing really stands out.

AGD gives me the warm fuzzies, DW gives me the warm fuzzies. Proteam doesn't, for whatever reason. So I'll support the companies in that way - I'd be one of the first in line to pay $500 for a hAir trigger from DW, or a hAir trigger from AGD, because I know neither Colin nor Tom would settle for anything less than high quality gear. I won't do that for proteam, because the blind fanatical trust hasn't settled in yet. Once I'm convinced that they are a company that produces an excellent product all of the time and will stand behind their stuff (not like they havn't in the past, but they've just been yet-another-company), and once I'm convinced that their pneumatic frame works and will be supported, then I'll buy one.


No offense PTP, but just look at the way the two frames are presented to us, the consumer. There's the DW hAir trigger, shown in a *well* *made* video, displaying the trigger action and it's rapid fire capabilities. Then there's the PTP autococker frame video, which isn't the best quality (I know, not a hype video, only had a digicam), which doesn't convey the same impression and is for the *autococker*. I know which one makes me want to buy the product now, and I know which one makes me go "meh".

I know autocockers are used more often than mags, I know it's a more "target-rich" market, and I know it makes no financial sense to develop a frame like this for a mag first. However, I own a mag, I have money, and I want a pneumatic frame for my marker. One of you two companies needs to work out all the little details, launch a hype campaign (again), and then make yourselves rich off of people like me. And you'd best do it soon, before I build my own darn pneumatic frame.

rant:off

First of all note that I didn't say ALL. I said most wouldn't. I agree with almost every point that you made about paying for quality and I didn't say Deadlywind or AGD ever put out crap. I said other products were hyped on AO and got a lot of "I'd buy that in a second!" posts. When the product was released, the sales weren't there........

[hitech]

One reason for a clause like that is keep someone for "infringing with no intent to sell",then they sell you a pair of grips for $200 and throw in a free grip frame.

An action such as that would create similar 'damages' as any more obvious infringments and therefore is not exempt from the Patents protections.

Sure, that would create damages. However, if someone made one and truely only used it themselves, what would "you" (i.e. the patent holder) be able to sure them for?

[hitech]

Not even Smart Parts would think about implementing a Gestapo to patrol paintball fields for guns that infringe a patent.

This is a theoretical discussion of what one COULD do, not necessarily what one WOULD (or even should) do. It was also only posed as a remedy for widespread copying of a patent. What would you do if say 20% of people showed up at a major tournament with "homemade" versions of your patented product? ;)

[rabidchihauhau]

No more commentary.

[Timmee]

So what would happen if the person that owns the pneumatic Mag that Punisher made, tried to use it in a tourney (assuming what rabidchihauhau said was done, with scrutineers at the tourneys)? That 'Mag's trigger setup was made BEFORE PTP's filing date, but how would it be proven?

[RRfireblade]

That 'Mag's trigger setup was made BEFORE PTP's filing date, but how would it be proven?


Don't think it was. He also just bolted a Cocker front end (off the shelf parts) on a Mag.



This is a theoretical discussion of what one COULD do, not necessarily what one WOULD (or even should) do. It was also only posed as a remedy for widespread copying of a patent. What would you do if say 20% of people showed up at a major tournament with "homemade" versions of your patented product?


20 poeple? Hmm....Set my Alias on DB1 and smoke 'em all? :D

Let's seee this is Tourny ball right? Call Gino at NPS, make deal under the table and get Mechs outllawed for Tourny Play.

No wait, add an addition "non Battery" surcharge on all markers to be used.

AH...that would be dirty pool.....wait.....what were we taliking about? :ninja:

Seriously, 'could" and 'would' are way different things. "Could" a cop give you a speeder for +2mph? Would he?

"Could" you file C&D and then file actions against 20 individuals at a rediculous cost to yourself with little or no potential gain? Would you?

[athomas]

I'm not a lawyer so I don't 100% know the correct answer to this, but I once read in a legal article that you could build anything for yourself and not interfer with the legal rights of the owner of a patent on the product you copied. As soon as you made the item for others, then you were infringing on the rights of the patent holder and could be charged.

To summarize, there is no way to stop a bunch of people from using a copied product. It is not illegal. It is illegal to copy the product for distribution. You can't make profit (even $0.00) off a copied item.

[hitech]

20 poeple?

20%, but the idea is the same. ;)


Seriously, "could" and "would" are way different things. "Could" a cop give you a speeder for +2mph? Would he?

Yes, that was the point.

Also, and maybe I'm wrong, but I still think that the only thing you can sue a potential patent infringer for is damages. I don't think "they" can show any in a homemade, personal use only item. As an example, I don't believe PTP can recover any damages from DW for the existing hAir, nor can they get a judge to order it turned over to PTP.

:cheers:

[hitech]

As soon as you made the item for others, then you were infringing on the rights of the patent holder and could be charged.


As i understand it, when you do that the patent holder incures damages. The people you gave it to possibly would have purchased it had you not given it to them. However, and I'm far less sure of this, it possible that if you could PROVE that they would not have purchased it had you not give it to them, there may be no damages. Maybe...

[TheTramp]

The only way a patent holder could "seize" copies of the item is if they could demonstrate that the copies are intended for distribution. That includes giving them away free.

For example: Here in Boston 1000's of "phony" World Series t-shirts were ordered by the court to be destroyed because it was obvious that they were going to be distributed. The maker of the fakes couldn't even keep them for "personal use."

Now if they'd just made a few for their friends I don't think Major League Baseball would have bothered suing over it.

[Lohman446]

A patent holder can sue to have them "rendered useless" or confiscated. However it takes a court order to do so, and would be awfully expensive to do against someone who is using it for personal use. Can they, yes... does it ever happen, not really. But its kind of like the music thing, noone ever thought the record companies would go after individuals - they always had the right to, and they did. The fact with most individuals, even if the court awarded damages (which they could) collecting on that judgement is unlikely.

[Conversekidz]

I might have miss read something but I do not believe someone who holds a patent could go after a private person who makes something for their own use. Hence if we had pictures of the hAir trigger and the list of items use to construct it PTP couldn't do a thing about it.


If deadly winds really wants to sock it to PTP all they would have to do is tell people what they did to make the trigger. PTP could not stop them from the free exchange of information. For that matter someone should pull PTP's patten and just see what it is they pattented and show EVERYONE on AO the patented material so we can make our own triggers.

[CoolHand]

. . . . . For that matter someone should pull PTP's patten and just see what it is they pattented and show EVERYONE on AO the patented material so we can make our own triggers.

There you go ----> PTP's Patent (or one of them). (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=7&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=paintball&OS=paintball&RS=paintball)

Take those techincal drawings and call me when you get one built. :ninja:

[bunker17]

i guess youre having some fun giving them leads on this holy grail quest this si turning into

[Conversekidz]

There you go ----> PTP's Patent (or one of them). (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=7&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=paintball&OS=paintball&RS=paintball)

Take those techincal drawings and call me when you get one built. :ninja:
can't get the images to work :-\

[Glickman]

can't get the images to work :-\

me neither, seems like ther are in quicktime format?

[Conversekidz]

got it to work, had to download a plug in. I have a lot of reading to do on that now, but from the quick skim of it its talking about using magnets in a trigger....so does that mean PTP can ban all companies from using magnets in triggers. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Automaggot68]

got it to work, had to download a plug in. I have a lot of reading to do on that now, but from the quick skim of it its talking about using magnets in a trigger....so does that mean PTP can ban all companies from using magnets in triggers. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


God, you dont know a damn thing about anything, do you?

[Conversekidz]

God, you dont know a damn thing about anything, do you?
omg, don't you sense sarcasim.

[CoolHand]

i guess youre having some fun giving them leads on this holy grail quest this si turning into

Not really.

I was trying to politely point out the ignorance that is running rampant in this thread (and oh so many others). Namely that given the patent document, any fool could turn out a working pneu frame in a matter of hours.

Its rubbish. Plain and simple.

Most of the people begging for the drawings would still be trying to get the thing to work long after the year wait they expect out of PTP has come and gone. Not to mention that they would have spent a significant amount of money on such an undertaking (think multiples of how much the whole marker it's destined for is worth).

And people seem to think that $300 is too much for the frame itself. Its absolute insanity to think that you would build one yourself for even three times that number (unless you own a machine shop of your own, and have days worth of free time at your disposal).

I'm just calling a spade a spade.

Or in this case a joker . . . . . .

[CoolHand]

omg, don't you sense sarcasim.

Yeah Derek! You big doodie head!

He even used three (3) rolly laughing guys ( :rofl: ) to help you get it.

Jeez . . . :rolleyes:

:ninja:

:rofl:

[ScatterPlot]

So without me doing a lot of reading, is this patent for just magnets assisting a trigger? And I couldn't get the pics to work either, and my quicktime says that I already have the plugin :confused: . Anyone want to post up the pics on jayloo or something? I actually might like to make me one of these suckers. I'll get to reading on it later, but it's late now and I'm not in the mood for too much thinking.

[CoolHand]

So without me doing a lot of reading, is this patent for just magnets assisting a trigger? And I couldn't get the pics to work either, and my quicktime says that I already have the plugin :confused: . Anyone want to post up the pics on jayloo or something? I actually might like to make me one of these suckers. I'll get to reading on it later, but it's late now and I'm not in the mood for too much thinking.

You need a TIFF viewer, not Quicktime (why Windows thinks they are QT is beyond me).

When you read the patent, and see the drawings, you will understand why I posted the link in jest . . . . . . .

[Muzikman]

Those drawing as about as useful as a hole in the head.

I do love the broad "idea" this patent covers.

[rabidchihauhau]

N.c.

[Gunga]

And I couldn't get the pics to work either, and my quicktime says that I already have the plugin :confused: . Anyone want to post up the pics on jayloo or something? I actually might like to make me one of these suckers. I'll get to reading on it later, but it's late now and I'm not in the mood for too much thinking.

Install one of these plugins (http://www.uspto.gov/patft/help/images.htm) to view the patent images. You'll probably also have to adjust QuickTime's plug in/MIME settings via your QT control panel.

[athomas]

The only way a patent holder could "seize" copies of the item is if they could demonstrate that the copies are intended for distribution. That includes giving them away free.

Exactly.

The amount of items built would be taken into consideration. Any more than deemed to be able to be used by the builder would be considered to be built for distribution.



As i understand it, when you do that the patent holder incures damages. The people you gave it to possibly would have purchased it had you not given it to them.


I agree with you. I'm not sure on this one either, but I think that even an item given away for $0 is considered a distribution item that could have been purchased from the patent protected manufacturer.

[ScatterPlot]

Those drawing as about as useful as a hole in the head.


I have almost NO idea of what those pics are trying to convey.

[Lohman446]

What people don't seem to realize about this - which I have only glanced at the drawings and going off others, who know what there talkign about in this thread, words is that you are not going to make one at home.

Even if someone knowledgeable were to write step by step instructions in layman terms it would be very expensive to find someone with the machining capabilities to make one to the tolerances needed. And thats with good instructions so it takes no mechanical intuition about how to make it work, assuming everything goes as instructions, and various other factors that won't happen.

The fact of the matter is, maching the first of anything is almost always more expensive than machining the next few dozen, the cost of setting machines, training operators, screwing one up, etc.

There are a few people on these boards who might be able to make working homemade versions... very few

[CoolHand]

What people don't seem to realize about this - which I have only glanced at the drawings and going off others, who know what there talkign about in this thread, words is that you are not going to make one at home.

Even if someone knowledgeable were to write step by step instructions in layman terms it would be very expensive to find someone with the machining capabilities to make one to the tolerances needed. And thats with good instructions so it takes no mechanical intuition about how to make it work, assuming everything goes as instructions, and various other factors that won't happen.

The fact of the matter is, maching the first of anything is almost always more expensive than machining the next few dozen, the cost of setting machines, training operators, screwing one up, etc.

There are a few people on these boards who might be able to make working homemade versions... very few

Ding ding ding

We have a winner folks!

:hail:

[RRfireblade]

cost of setting machines, training operators, screwing one up, etc.

There are a few people on these boards who might be able to make working homemade versions... very few

The only insight I'll give is that the 'theory' of how it works is fairly simply,especially the Mag version.I't by far the simplest functioning system.The autococker incurred far more complications,but not the compications that most people would think,it opens up a whole new area of issues that must be overcome.

However....

It's the precise application and method of a few of very specifically functioning parts that seperates the 'theory' from the real life design. Those are the things that make it special and the things that very,very fewpeple will be able to manufacture on there own,and definately not the ability to mass produce.These are the things that will take the most time and money to nail down if you were to build these in any quantity.

[ScatterPlot]

If you guys are refferring to my above post, I do understand that it probably be very hard to do and that most could not make it with just a dremel, a file, and some instructions from someone else. And no, I'm not making this to sell a lot of, I am just wanting to see if I can do it cause I like doing that kind of thing cause I have some machine tools and a little experience. I completely respect the opinions of CoolHand and RRFireblade here, cause I know you guys have truckloads of experience in doing all kinds of cool crap with tools and all, but as you might have seen from my various questions and stuff from the Workshop I like to tinker around and all. I might not be able to make one in the long run, and if I do get one made it would take me a million hours to make but I would be proud of it and have some experience chalked up to boot. I just don't know how the thing works. I assume it's either a very small standard 3-way valve connected with an air piloted valve or maybe a membraneish kind of valve or something, I dunno. I completely respect your opinions, but I do enjoy a challenge. If the information on how this thing works, given enough info I could probably ghetto fab me up one that I could play around with. If that infringes upon the patent let me know, cause I wasn't sure if I could just make one for me (I think it was Rogue who made that replica of the RT valve on his own, then later sold it to someone as part of a gun, and as far as I knew there was no patent harm done.) I wouldn't sell it for profit and as a source of income probably ever cause it would be kinda unique (since I don't have your EXACT design) but if it did get sold it would be if I was like getting out of paintball completely, which looks even less likely than me building my own frame.
I might even have to end up getting someone to help me, like one of my professors or something, before I can do this, but it does look like something I would really like to try and do. Again not for a business, but for fun. If you don't want to tell anybody about how it works until it comes out, hey that's cool with me, I understand. But if I could, with your (the patent holder's) permission that would be great. But whatever, it's your call and I trust your judgement way more than I trust my own.
Bert

[CoolHand]

I wasn't making fun of you for wanting to try and build one yourself. Far from it. I like to see guys who take the initiative to figure something out for themselves.

I was poking fun at the fact that a couple of guys (can't remember if you were among them or not) posted wanting to see the patent, so they could just build one themselves and skip all the rest.

The fact that they assumed that they'd just call up the patent, and there would be all the technical drawings and dimensions that they'd need is what I found humorous. Like there would be a step by step set of instructions, with a materials list, and a nice dimensioned print just waiting for them to DL. :rofl:

As you can plainly see (if you've looked at the patent that is), you're starting from scratch with those drawings.

I just got a chuckle out of it, that's all.

Good luck with your project.

[kenndogg]

Well guys, I just got a chance to shoot the DW hAir mag today and all I can say is it was NICE. Truly impressive even though I was a bit slow on it(too use to my viking lol). Its a damn shame that DW won't have the chance to release it.

[rabidchihauhau]

those wanting to 'copy' the patent and claiming to be interested in technical stuff and wanting to explore new things -

why don't you just sit down and try and build something? I mean, if you want to tinker - go tinker. I'd consider starting from the patent to be the 'lazy' approach.

(Most successful inventors are 'aware' of the technology in their chosen field, but they stay away from looking at other people's designs so that their own creativity doesn't get 'contaminated'.)

[luke]

There are all kinds of people.
Those who can design.
Those who can design and build.
Those who can build.
Those who are learning to build. ;)
Etc. Etc. Etc.

(I deleted the rest of my post to avoid a fight)

[Lohman446]

those wanting to 'copy' the patent and claiming to be interested in technical stuff and wanting to explore new things -

why don't you just sit down and try and build something? I mean, if you want to tinker - go tinker. I'd consider starting from the patent to be the 'lazy' approach.

(Most successful inventors are 'aware' of the technology in their chosen field, but they stay away from looking at other people's designs so that their own creativity doesn't get 'contaminated'.)


I think at this point you're attitude, which to me comes across as whatever is best to protect PTP is annoying. :D . BTW... look at my posts before you think I'm out to get PTP, they have been very non-commital to either side, but I think I have come across with the idea that if PTP holds a patent and noone knowledgeable is objecting to it - with reason (waiting for TK to state his reason) than I surely have no reason to.

I don't buy your argument. If I was going to start designing things for paintball I would start by reverse engineering the classic blow forward marker, the autococker, a stacked tube, and a spool valve gun. I would do this solely for learning purposes - and this trigger system would also be included, along with a series of other options.

You see, your talking about someone who already has the knowledge to design, Im talking from a starting point. The knowledge you would gain from doing this can than be used to come up with your own ideas, or to tweak the previous idea and make it better - is this not what the idea of a free market competetive marketplace is about - the evolution of ideas?

[Thordic]

One of the purposes of the patent registration system, besides protecting the inventor, is to publish new ideas for the advancement of technology. Starting from scratch every time doesn't help anyone.

[skife]

Don't think it was. He also just bolted a Cocker front end (off the shelf parts) on a Mag.



its still a pnumatic trigger.

[RRfireblade]

its still a pnumatic trigger.

Unlike some of the more note worthy posters in this thread,I'm not going to try and explain Patent law to everybody.

In simplest terms...

All Cars have 4 wheels and a motor. Are all cars the same?

Just 'cause Motor cars have existed for 200 years,doesn't mean some one couldn't come up with an original design for one that no one else thought of or simply didn't fully realize as a potential improvement on the "idea".

[teufelhunden]

Going off of Jay's analogy above..

A quad has four wheels and a motor, as well as a drivetrain, transmission, brakes, etc.

A Saleen S7TT has four wheels and a motor, as well as a drivetrain, transmission, brakes, etc.

Quad=Saleen S7TT?

Didn't think so.

[thejesus]

Yet another sad day in paintball, when money prevails over innovation. I have shot RobAGD's hAir, I'm sad to realize that's the only one I'll ever shoot.

[Andrew Cunje]

:( sigh...i just finally chekced back... 1 month later... to find this project in ruins....god damn them....god damn them to hell

dw, i will be buying one of ur other cool *** products seeing as how i own an am/mm rail

GOD DAMNIT.

that trigger was goin to put us back on top

i hate electros and people who indulge in them



there is nothign better than a fully mechnaical gun

DAMNIT :(

im good buddies with rob hoover also, ive held that puppy in my hands....:( im soo sad....maybe he'll let me have his ;)

[B.A.M.]

There are all kinds of people.
Those who can design.
Those who can design and build.
Those who can build.
Those who are learning to build. ;)
Etc. Etc. Etc.

(I deleted the rest of my post to avoid a fight)
Also the one's who hirer all those people

[luke]

I was responding to this. ;)

[QUOTE=rabidchihauhau]
why don't you just sit down and try and build something? I mean, if you want to tinker - go tinker. I'd consider starting from the patent to be the 'lazy' approach.QUOTE]


I was implying not everyone has the aptitude or experience to design something like this, so, it doesn’t necessarily make them lazy if were to use the patent as reference.

[Conversekidz]

I don't see looking at a patent or plans as a lazy way out, its gives you a bases to design your own piece.


I do have to say, why reinvent the wheel when its already been made? why not take the wheel reverse engineer it and make it better.

[luke]

I don't see looking at a patent or plans as a lazy way out, its gives you a bases to design your own piece.


I do have to say, why reinvent the wheel when its already been made? why not take the wheel reverse engineer it and make it better.

That's it exactly!

I completely understand that people want to protect what they "invent" but really it's the way of the world to copy or base designs on something that is already proven to work.

Not everyone has the capability to invent something that is truly unique, so the said statement seems a little arrogant to me....

[Lohman446]

i hate electros and people who indulge in them


They don't have the appropriate smiley for flipping you off for the arrogance and base stupidity of that statement. You just flamed a good number of people... as well as those who use e-mags/hypframed mags/devilmags or who are looking forward to an electronic mag.

[Brophog]

Not so fast my friend. He didn't say people that use them, he said 'indulge in them'.

That's a notable distinction.

[Lohman446]

Not so fast my friend. He didn't say people that use them, he said 'indulge in them'.

That's a notable distinction.


:eek: :tard: So I decided not to make that distinction.

Lets face something that is a reality here though. This trigger is going to be a niche market, it is highly unlikely that this is going to "put the mag back on top". However good it is, however competetive it is there are still issues you will have to overcome (like eyes) that are going to be hard to convince people you don't need. Ramping is a coming thing, there may be resistance but I expect, in two years... its here. I could easily be wrong I know that.

[RRfireblade]

Ramping is a coming thing, there may be resistance but I expect, in two years... its here. I could easily be wrong I know that.

Well. apparently ramping IS already here in a large degree. Try and find a DM4/5 on the PBN classifieds for sale that DOESN'T have a ramping chip in it. Trust me, I've tried. :) It's kinda scary really.I expect it will only get worse.

But....

There's no reason that a mechanical trigger system can't ramp. In fact, it can. Controlling the ROF is the only obstical...unless a Mag ramping to 33BPS is ok. :) But that will be soon sorted out.

[Lohman446]

There's no reason that a mechanical trigger system can't ramp. In fact, it can. Controlling the ROF is the only obstical...unless a Mag ramping to 33BPS is ok. :) But that will be soon sorted out.

Ramp or bounce? I draw a distinction from SP style 15BPS Ramping to all out bounce and a lot less control on getting it to stop.

[RRfireblade]

Ramp or bounce? I draw a distinction from SP style 15BPS Ramping to all out bounce and a lot less control on getting it to stop.


Defintely not bounce. We're talking a 'full auto' like situation after a certain reached ROF at Semi only. Basically,get it up to a certain ROF and it will jump to a higher preset ROF until you stop pulling the trigger. But that's still 'in the works' yet so the specifics may change when or if it becomes an available feature.

[Lohman446]

Defintely not bounce. We're talking a 'full auto' like situation after a certain reached ROF at Semi only. Basically,get it up to a certain ROF and it will jump to a higher preset ROF until you stop pulling the trigger. But that's still 'in the works' yet so the specifics may change when or if it becomes an available feature.


Now thats intriguing.

[VFX_Fenix]

Vapor Works has their NXL chip which does just that, it'll go from semi (4-6bps or something similarly low) to full auto (15bps) after a relatively low ROF is achieved. Personally I believe that ramping is a far safer alternative to bouncing, if only for the fact that when you stop pulling the trigger, the gun stops shooting. Also the CFOA has weighed in on this topic and supposedly will be imposing an ROF limit of 15bps on their fields. As to exactly how they'll impose this, I don't know, but it's a sign that field owners are obviously interested in limiting ROF's on their fields (probably partially under the preasure of their insurance companies as well)

[z28ss43]

Looking at deadly winds site; is the hAir trigger dead? Its no longer listed in the products but it is mentioned on the main page and the video is still available. Hope to see something like it someday. Any info would be appreciated. :cry:

[Dayspring]

Read the first page in this thread. :rolleyes:

[nicad]

Our official updates can be found here:
http://www.deadlywind.com/news.html
The last update on the hAir was on 12/29/04.

Thanks-
Colin

[snake_eater]

Cool, a new R.A.I.L. system...

[Lukie91985]

So is the hair trigger coming out for any marker? Or is it just patented to sit there unused?

[BD_Paintball]

this thread is soooo old. and i would say no

[mark_1791]

PTP has the pneumatic trigger system patented. This covers all guns. No, the hair will not come out at all. PTP is coming out with one soon though.

[Splat]

*holy bringing threads back from the dead batman* Sorry, i've been out of paintball for 2 years, i'm trying to catch up.


but GOD that's bs...

Just like Smart Parts "patent".

this garbage is ruining Painball. (imo)


Hey Colin, I dont suppose it's possible NOT to "mass market" these... just do some custom modding for a buddy in your garage for a few *wink wink* bucks? *wink wink*

knowhaimsayin? **wink wink nudge nudge**

[Chronobreak]

way to throw gas on the fire :mad:

[BD_Paintball]

way to throw gas on the fire :mad:
and bring back an old thread that should die

[Splat]

and bring back an old thread that should die



Meh, you all know you wanted it back.

if you didn't then you wouldn't keep replying "this should die" then we'll get 2 pages of "this should die" posts.

[BD_Paintball]

Meh, you all know you wanted it back.

if you didn't then you wouldn't keep replying "this should die" then we'll get 2 pages of "this should die" posts.
i dont want it back. this should die

[Splat]

i dont want it back. this should die



This should die, way to suck bringing it back.


damn noob.

[BD_Paintball]

This should die, way to suck bringing it back.


damn noob.
i know GOD

[Splat]

i know GOD



hahahhaha,

[11 Bravo]

Hey if PTP wont make their trigger frame maybe we can get Deadly Wind to start back on the HAIR trigger. :tard:
.
.

[Automaggot68]

You're all idiots.

[Target Practice]

You're all idiots.

They'll never learn. Just let them play. Even retards get let out of the home every once and a while.

[Splat]

by posting you've become one of us...


"one of us, one of us, one of us, one of us, one of us, one of us."




thanks for joining.

[Lohman446]

Is the theory of the patent that hard to understand? I realize there are intricacies in the system that are that complex, but how do this many people fail to grasp the base concept of intellectual property?

[Splat]

I understand haveing a good idea and wanting to protect said idea. But do you really thing that ptp was the FIRST company to think of this kind of trigger?

From what I know of Colin and the guys at Deadlywind, i hold in good faith that they didn't see something and say to themselves "how can we steal this idea to make profit."

Deadlywind made a sic trigger frame mod that would definatly bring mag owners back into the top echelon of tourney paintball. And now they can't go on with their creation due to a previous patent that has just enough similarities to verify a problem.

[Lohman446]

I understand haveing a good idea and wanting to protect said idea. But do you really thing that ptp was the FIRST company to think of this kind of trigger?

From what I know of Colin and the guys at Deadlywind, i hold in good faith that they didn't see something and say to themselves "how can we steal this idea to make profit."

Deadlywind made a sic trigger frame mod that would definatly bring mag owners back into the top echelon of tourney paintball. And now they can't go on with their creation due to a previous patent that has just enough similarities to verify a problem.

That's the base concept of the patent system is it not? To protect the patent holder and thus encourage innovation and bringing those innovations to market through that protection.

[Automaggot68]

Deadlywind made a sic trigger frame mod that would definatly bring mag owners back into the top echelon of tourney paintball. And now they can't go on with their creation due to a previous patent that has just enough similarities to verify a problem.


And you know this for certain HOW?

[rabidchihauhau]

you know, its just possible for several people to be working on the same idea at about the same time....

NAH. Never happens...

[mobsterboy]

it would have certainly revolutionized the mag industry, but not to the point of raising it from the dead. now logics frame, if made cheaper, and marketed better, that could do some serious damage, but no one cares about mechs in tourney scenes anymore. At least nobody that wins. Own up to the fact that mags had their day and crying about a pneusframe wont help anything but the loyal magfans

[Splat]

the "Loyal megafans" are what keep companies rolling.

and if Airgun Designs doesn't come out with something new to compete with then the only mag owners will be the "loyal megafans."

[Target Practice]

And you know this for certain HOW?

He said it, which means it is truth.

[BD_Paintball]

He said it, which means it is truth.
i was just about to say that. he is all knowing Automaggot68

[Automaggot68]

i was just about to say that. he is all knowing Automaggot68

my bad.

[Spencer]

what ever happened to this?

[longi]

It died a long time ago...