We Want A PneuMag Frame!!! Email PTP Campaign

[Thordic]

Ok, by all rights at this point in time we (mag owners) should have a pneumatic-operation mag frame by now. Colin's hAir frame has been more or less complete for months. But due to legal issues with PTP, the hAir is now shelved indefinitely.

As I understand it, PTP plans to release their pneumatic frames for Cockers initially. I think they owe us for making us wait so long.

We should start an email campaign pestering them constantly about when they are releasing their frame for mags. It seems its too late to save the hAir, but by god we should have SOMETHING. If PTP killed the hAir the least they could do is release their frame for the Mag.

sales@proteamproducts.com

Email them now, and keep it up. Hopefully they'll get the idea and make sure they adapt the technology to the Automag. There is no reason why they can't get this out by IAO at the latest.

[Creative Mayhem]

Here here!!! I am writing my letter as we speak.

[Adrenaline_Junkie]

Are they releasing the cocker version first? I read on PBN (i know, i know, ya dont even have to comment on that.....) that the mag version was gonna be released first. Anyway, if they are in fact releasing the cocker version first i will send them an email.

[master_alexander]

or we can deadlywynd to produce thw frame for mags and sell pencils at $250 and you get their frame free with a purchase of a pencil.

[Adrenaline_Junkie]

Considering deadly wind cnat make the frames the idea of selling a $250 pencil with the frame as like a free gift is kinda pointless......

[Big'n slo]

Here here!!! I am writing my letter as we speak.

Can you forward your letter to me. I'm to lazy to write my own :D

[dynastyfan]

yeah same here, i want to send out a letter but i dont want to write one.

[ojhspyro89]

Someone make a letter and post it so us lazy people (3/4 of AO) can copy and paste it to them multiple times.

[Creative Mayhem]

.

[Vanced]

Hey,

I am as upset about the hAir as much as the next guy...

But from what I remember about PTP's last frame development process "Medussa" frames... they will take their good sweet time...

And I bought alot of PTP stuff so I don't want to bash um... Small shop that won't put up the cash needed to get the frames out as fast or in the quanity that we want... or give us priority like our own Nicad would...

So I am not holding my breath...

*or I could be wrong and am still just bitter, disapointed, and tired of waiting* E-mail away... :rolleyes:

[behemoth]

i want one that drops into an existing frame..

PTP's frames a FUGLY, and the nicad is god. so -- Email PTP and tell them we're gonna send all the dago's to break their legs.

ps (im italian)

[Automaggot68]

i want one that drops into an existing frame..

PTP's frames a FUGLY, and the nicad is god. so -- Email PTP and tell them we're gonna send all the dago's to break their legs.

ps (im italian)


Yeah, because NiCad designed the INTELLIFRAME

[GT]

But due to legal issues with PTP, the hAir is now shelved indefinitely.





No, our patent was not denied.. (amazing how speculation is so easily stated as fact).
It is still going forward. It has been filed, in the system, and all that good stuff.

The decision is based compleatly on the financial/resources aspect.


I am sorry, but what legal issues are you talking about. Sounds to me like the frame is to expensive for Deadlywind to produce....

[Creative Mayhem]

I am sorry, but what legal issues are you talking about. Sounds to me like the frame is to expensive for Deadlywind to produce....

not for him to produce.... for him to actually get around PTP.... they are holding him up, and its costing him money. He just can't afford to put anymore money into fighting them at this time.

[Big'n slo]

.

[Thordic]

Just because his patent wasn't rejected doesn't mean PTP's isn't valid.

If Colin went ahead with production, even with patent in hand, PTP could still sue. Especially since their patent was granted first.

Which would become very expensive for Colin, since he'd have to slug it out in court with PTP.

Hence, legal issues.

[BD_Paintball]

why would you e-mail them. the hair lost, deal with it e-mailing them isnt going to change anything. i dont know why you ppl thought it would come out in the first place. who cares. you had your minds set on the hair trigger. they will come out with a mag frame sooner or later

[teufelhunden]

You aren't owed anything. When the product hits the market you can buy it.

And the demo video of the cocker one that Jay put out was in a stock WGP hinge.. and that has to do two things. It's probably cheaper for PTP to drop it into an existing frame.

Oh, and you're going to be happy with what comes out or you won't use it, and nobody else can/will make one, so there's really no point in pissing and moaning about it.

[OmniM]

It's probably cheaper for PTP to drop it into an existing frame.

Thought the hAir was in a Intelli .... ;)

[behemoth]

i didnt know nicad designed the telli frame -- neat :)

[barrel break]

You aren't owed anything. When the product hits the market you can buy it.

And the demo video of the cocker one that Jay put out was in a stock WGP hinge.. and that has to do two things. It's probably cheaper for PTP to drop it into an existing frame.

Oh, and you're going to be happy with what comes out or you won't use it, and nobody else can/will make one, so there's really no point in pissing and moaning about it.
If you read the threa on AIR, you will see them saying something about it being a drop in for most semi auto sear guns.

EDIT: as to mail in campaigns, On the Tippmann board, there was a massive campaign to get a ricochet to make loaders for the A-5, and guess what, it worked :D

EDIT: this is the message i sent (please, do not copy/paste it unless you have no time, it doesnt look good)
Hello,
It is my understanding that legal differences between yourselves and DeadlyWind has lead to the abandonment of their soon-to-be flagship product, a pneumatic trigger system for the AGD automag. I a also under the impression that you are in development of a system similar in operation, I am urging you to release this frame for the automag, as well as your planned releases, there is a large willing customer base, exemplified by the www.automags.org community. I believe that this would be both a profitable venture for you, and would lead to the gratification of the 'mag shooting community.

thank you for your time,
Matthew Ribkoff

[Thordic]

so there's really no point in pissing and moaning about it.

Vendors are nothing without customers. If you get a whole bunch of customers asking you to come out with a product, you either have to a) start listening, or b) lose a lot of customers.

If a company doesn't listen to the people who buy their products, they aren't going to be a very successful company.

Email campaigns DO work. And who said anything about PTP letting the hAir be made? I'm talking about PTP releasing THEIR frame for the mag. Knock off the name calling and grow up! :mad:

[WenULiVeUdiE]

I think I remember RRfireblade said he was working real hard to get the Mag version out before the cocker version.

I'll email them.

[GT]

a) start listening, or b) lose a lot of customers.
Idiot.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ,
when was the last time you bought anything from ptp?

[Muzikman]

My question, when was the last time PTP released a new product? They have had a lot of cool ideas over the years, but the only thing that really made it to market was the MicroMag, the MicroCocker (which you never heard about any more) and some barrels. The cool stuff like the Medusa frame, the external battery pack, etc...never really made it. I fear the same will happen with this trigger frame.

[Virem]

PTP does do other things besides mags.... in fact most of their things are not mag releated. They are not the bad guys or a bad company for releasing or not releasing a part that have the rights to. As much as i would like to see the trigger.

[viper_ssc]

I think they owe us for making us wait so long.
latest.
PTP doesnt owe us anything, if they think that the hAir trigger violated their patents then they had the right to take legal actions. Of course they could be different enough so it didn't violate their patents. If you invented something like this and you see someone else makes something similar wouldn't you try to take legal actions? Of course, because if they dont then they could be losing money. You also say they should bring out the mag trigger first? well they should just bring out the trigger that is the most finished and finish that then worry about the other ones, say they are about 80% done with the cocker frame and about 20% with the mag, you really think they should stop the cocker and go with the mag? They should just go ahead with their plans in the first place, either way mag users are getting a fast mechanical trigger whether it be from PTP or DeadlyWind.

[Muzikman]

If PTP prevents DW from make the hAir and then doesn't release a version for the mag, I think users have the right to complain.

The legal battles in the paintball world make me sick.

[tony3]

Glad I don't own a mag waiting for a pneumatic frame.

[jewie27]

I just read the news on Deadlywind.com:

"hAir update- As some of you have heard, our progress has been slowed by some legal hurdles. The problem we ran into is that Pro-Team Products was recently granted a patent on assisted trigger mechanisms for paintball markers. Pro-Team insists that we are infringing this patent, and although we disagree with them, we have tried to cooperate so we can get the product released. We've been advised that our remaining options are expensive ones, and since we have already overspent resources in the development of this product, we have decided to shelve it for now and focus on our other projects. Again, we apologize for keeping everyone waiting on this. We do hope to revive this in the future, either when we can again justify allocating resources, or once we form partnerships that enable us to do so."


---------------------------------------------------GAY-------------------------------------------------

Pro-Team, sucks. I guess DW did the right thing by waiting on this so they don't get sued. I really hope that it comes out within the next year or two.

Until then, I will be shooting my 'Mag in "runaway" mode at 1000 PSI. :shooting: :cheers:
I don't play tournaments so I don't care if I have mad trigger bounce.

[Muzikman]

Pro-Team, sucks. I guess DW did the right thing by waiting on this so they don't get sued. I really hope that it comes out within the next year or two.

Until then, I will be shooting my 'Mag in "runaway" mode at 1000 PSI. :shooting: :cheers:
I don't play tournaments so I don't care if I have mad trigger bounce.


Read the other thread from Colin. The hAir will not be coming out any time soon, if at all.

[danoxide]

up up and away!


(my email sent)

[RRfireblade]

Oh uh, I see lot's more work coming my way. :ninja:

MMmm, Email if you like, I end up answering many of the sales emails anyway. ;) So it won't be much of a suprise.

FYI,

I'm already doing everything I can to make the Mag version a possibility and hopefully as soon as reasonably possible. It has always been "my" first priority and it continues to be so. You all have NO idea how much I wish that one could have been made available a LOoong time ago but I'm sorry there's only so much influence I have over the 'greater' powers.We (PTP) have some major and hopefully, settling legal finalizations coming up in a few weeks,after then I should have a much better estimate on the amount of time before you all start to see a light at the end of the tunnel. I will also foward this thread to those who need to see it,that will get you (AO) the best possible voice in the outcome of this product.

There's not much more info I can offer at this time which is why those of you following the various other threads around the internet have not seen any more updates from me.

Hang in there, it's still in the works and as far as I know, high on the list.

Thanks,

Jay.

[Eric Cartman]

That's pretty much the response I expected to see from RRfireblade. I'm really looking forward to seeing this thing. It seems a lot of people have already decided that the pneu trigger from PTP isn't going to be as good as the hAir. We won't know until we see it / use it and I'll keep an open mind until then.


"Pretty soon video of the mag version and the blowback semi-auto version will be made available "
That's from the thread posted on the AIR Powered forum.

RR, that was on the 30th of Sept. Any idea of when we might see some video teasers of the mag version?

[teufelhunden]

Vendors are nothing without customers. If you get a whole bunch of customers asking you to come out with a product, you either have to a) start listening, or b) lose a lot of customers.

If a company doesn't listen to the people who buy their products, they aren't going to be a very successful company.

Email campaigns DO work. And who said anything about PTP letting the hAir be made? I'm talking about PTP releasing THEIR frame for the mag. Idiot.


A niche market means nothing to a company, unless that's their specialty. If I was PTP, a 'Mag version is dead last on my list of pneu frames to come out with.. a cocker version is first, cuz there's so many people who want ROF but don't want to drop 450 on an E2 and than a BB version, although it's a harder sell when electro frames come stock on $130 guns, despite the 13bps cap. A 'mag frame, however.. well, 'Mags aren't used enough in competitive paintball to make it worth their while, since, as was said before, you can go 1000PSI and go into runaway and get the same ROF for $300 less.

See above paragraph for why the 'Mag demo means very little when it comes to success.

Email campaigns may work, but you need to realize that there's larger opportunities here, and when it's all boiled down, it's a business, and businesses make money. Not make niche markets happy.

My last comment was simply to address future posts about if PTP didn't come out with a 'Mag version.

[GT]

A niche market means nothing to a company, unless that's their specialty. If I was PTP, a 'Mag version is dead last on my list of pneu frames to come out with.. a



oooohhhh,
the truth hurts like a wet towl to the .......

[Thordic]

If they didn't care about the mag market, then they shouldn't have blocked Colin from making a frame for the mag alone.

And Mags are making a comeback. Slowly, but its happening. I see more people with mags now than I have in the past few years, and they've gotten their "wow" factor back. So it isn't entirely a "niche" market.

[Thordic]

Note: If you want to be a pessimist, do it somewhere else. We are trying to accomplish something positive here. So shut it.

[teufelhunden]

They cared about someone infringing on their patent. Not because it was the 'Mag market, but because it's their patent to enforce as they choose.

I see more people posting they'll accept a 'Mag as a trade, or making WTB threads for 'Mags, but I'd be interested to see just how many new 'Mags are realling leaving AGD.

And I'm not being a pessimist, simply attacking your belief that you're "owed" anything by PTP.

[Creative Mayhem]

why would you e-mail them. the hair lost, deal with it e-mailing them isnt going to change anything. i dont know why you ppl thought it would come out in the first place. who cares. you had your minds set on the hair trigger. they will come out with a mag frame sooner or later


Pay attention or read the first post..... We are emailing PTP to get them to get their frame out ASAP because there won't be a hAIR trigger.

[MindJob]

'Mags aren't used enough in competitive paintball to make it worth their while, since, as was said before, you can go 1000PSI and go into runaway and get the same ROF for $300 less.



If you are playing 'competative paintball', your not shooting a mech w/a pneu assited trigger anyhow. You are shooting an electro.

I dont think this pneu frame thing is aimed at the tourny scene.

[teufelhunden]

At lower level tourneys, whatever BPS this thing will allow you to put out is sufficient. People still play rookie/young guns tourneys with mech 'Cockers, so this will put enough paint downfield. However, even if it isn't aimed at the tournament side of paintball, it puts it even further down the list of things to buy.. let's face it, Tippmanns still dominate scenario ball, despite what the TacOne is there for, and woods play still is slow in adopting higher ROF guns. [Yes, of course there are exceptions, and I'm sure they're going to come out of the woodwork and flame me for that last sentence]. And that leaves non-competitive speedball, where people are shooting Spyders, Cockers, and Imps..

[skife]

the video of the hAir trigger shooting that fast would definatally put <s>mags</s> mechs back on the tourney scene.

[RRfireblade]

RR, that was on the 30th of Sept. Any idea of when we might see some video teasers of the mag version?


I'll try an do one as soon as I get the chance.


If they didn't care about the mag market, then they shouldn't have blocked Colin from making a frame for the mag alone.


First off, DW 'was' planning on making them for other markers besides Mags.It's not possible without some kind of agreeement to differentiate one from the rest. And FYI, we are open to agreements with 'Anyone' who wishes to manufacture a similar product in co-operation wtih PTP,it's not our fault that certain companies or people do not have the finacial resources to make that arrangement.


Besides that, PTP 'is' planning on doing one but you guys have to understand that in order to stay in business,which PTP has done for around 20 years now,there must be priorities set on what products you do and develop.It's the 'bread and butter' work that has allowed PTP to do work in other less benificail areas,many of which now include the declining Automag market.If the Mag has a big turn around in the near future,perhaps that will change but until YOU,the Automag Buyer/User, create that turnaround you will not see a dramatic change in the aftermarket Mag accessory market.

Unlike the very few AO only dealers, the typical major parts manufacturer can not survive based on AO sales alone.

All I can say, and have said, is the Mag will not be forgotten. PTP has ALWAYS supported the Automag,AGD and AO even when certain people have not been kind to PTP.I have no control over things that may or may not gone on at PTP in the past, I can only go on what I have conrol over since I've been here full time.

I do hope that means something to those of you that have delt with me personally or at PTP and others in the past.

Jay.

[Chronobreak]

rr on a sidenote can you comment on the frame chosen or anything? is it an existing frame or custom made = more $

vert, y-grip, maybe all of the above

mainly i was wondering if you picked a frame or still havent yet or maybe multiple frames.


as for commenting on teh legal issuses.. i know about as much as anyone here not directly involved int he projects...and i dont feel comfortable or upto date with any of the info to post any opions that are probly unfare to ptp or deadlywind.

[Thordic]

Its hard to help PTP turn around their automag market when at present they don't make any mag products worth buying.

We're hoping this new frame changes that.

[frontrunner]

I'm not buying from ptp i don't care if they are the only one who make a frame of this kind. I will not support a nazi company no SP ans now no PTP. because these compaines fail to see what it does to the sport it leaves us hanging a frame like this could have been out in july but they want to play game with each other and what does it do? it hold of the realease and it will drive up the price of the frame for 2 reason 1 its expensive to play leagal games and thats coming out of your poket and 2 if now one else makes one you'll pay what they ask. so thanks ptp for joining sp in compaines that care more about money then your buyers :nono:

[teufelhunden]

I'm not buying from ptp i don't care if they are the only one who make a frame of this kind. I will not support a nazi company no SP ans now no PTP. because these compaines fail to see what it does to the sport it leaves us hanging a frame like this could have been out in july but they want to play game with each other and what does it do? it hold of the realease and it will drive up the price of the frame for 2 reason 1 its expensive to play leagal games and thats coming out of your poket and 2 if now one else makes one you'll pay what they ask. so thanks ptp for joining sp in compaines that care more about money then your buyers :nono:


I only quoted this message because of how STUPID it is, so that even if you edit it, it's still here.


PTP and SP are two _completely_ different issues. The problem everybody has with SP is that they expanded their Shocker patent to cover all electronic guns well after electros had permeated the market. Many people feel this was done illegally/in a manner that should not have been allowed by the USPTO. It was not SP protecting something they built, but instead a business move, which is where many people fault them. PTP is protecting something they've been working on for five years, although most of that was patent stuff.

PTP is not playing games with you. If anything, Deadlywind is the one playing games with the consumer by releasing videos of the hAir before it was ready and there were proper measures taken to be sure the product could make it to market. PTP did the opposite and took the correct route, patenting their idea before releasing anything about it. DW failed to do the correct thing and check with the patent office, especially considering a pneumatic assist trigger frame is not a new idea. DW was simply the first to release a video of a good implementation of it.

PTP didn't play any legal games. They patented their product and protect it. Not a game. Secondly, supply and demand dictates the price. Nobody is going to pay $400 for this frame because there's electros available for less.


Your entire post is baseless and without merit. People complain about the business of paintball being what's bad about paintball today-- no. Ignorant people spouting off on the internet is what's wrong with paintball today. You spew whatever comes to mind without rhyme or reason, fail to check the truth of your statements, and then pass them off as if God handed them to you on stone. Then people read the thread once and see your post before they see an intelligent and factual reply and assume your baseless statements are fact. YOU RUIN PAINTBALL, NOT BUSINESS.

[minimag03]

Why can't Deadlywind make a deal with PTP? It would save PTP a lot of money and time designing, plus it would increrase sales. It would help Deadlywind's work pay off too.

[cphilip]

Note: If you want to be a pessimist, do it somewhere else. We are trying to accomplish something positive here. So shut it.

Who died and made you King?

No one has to shut up. Anyones oppinion is welcome. You can ignore the ones you don't like....

[teufelhunden]

Who died and made you King?


I did, Phil, sorry I forgot to get that memo to ya..

[bunker17]

guys chill out no reason to fight

[RRfireblade]

Its hard to help PTP turn around their automag market when at present they don't make any mag products worth buying.

We're hoping this new frame changes that.

I think your miss understanding the situation, PTP and everyone else in the industry BTW, no longer makes Mag parts 'cause there currently IS no Mag market. Not the other way around. And don't think a Pnuematic Mag trigger is going to change that either.YOU the buyer need to buy more mag stuff and create the demand.When stuff stops selling,stuff stops getting made.Currently Mag sales of prettty much any kind account for less than 1% of the total in PB sales annually for at least the last 10 quarters. Ask Tom why he gave up the good fight then get back to me. ;) It wasn't 'cause of an expected boom in Mag futures. :)



so thanks ptp for joining sp in compaines that care more about money then your buyers

Sure, No problem. Companies as a whole are only here to serve your personal selfish needs.We just pay our bills with huggs,dried flowers and good thoughts. :rolleyes:

[bunker17]

Well fireblade you have point there that maybe mag sales are almost none existend but that doesn't mean that we shouldn' get products because there are still players who want them and the fact that we are always put to second place just because it doesn't generates sells well maybe the fact that all the third party companies throw everything the other side if you guyd would throw the pneumatic trigger first to the automag community im sure i have a cople 40 clients that would buy and entire gun which whatever pneumatic assisted frame would came out because i started selling mags because of the demand just from the advertisement of the hair so if it would have actually come out i would probably even sold 5 times what i did so why don't you give us a chance for a change.

We just pay our bills with huggs,dried flowers and good thoughts. and if you can pay your bills like that what is the point of getting money anyway then :p

[DiSoRdeR]

Does this mean that there will possibly be Micromags available again? If so would it be a current version or a new one? Either way Im interested.

[Muzikman]

DW obviously thought there was a big enough market for a new Mag frame or else they wouldn't have put so much time and money into it.

I don't think Tom bailed because the mag's future was grim. I think he bailed because of the industry it's self. If the future was so grim, why would Zupe even bother buying up the inventory and try to keep AGD alive?

There is a good fight out there, just we as players need to make sure the indutry stays in check.

I also think that with some of the rumors of rule changes, a fast mechanical gun might be the way to go. So this frame very well might have saved the mag, but we will never know now.

[teufelhunden]

Well fireblade you have point there that maybe mag sales are almost none existend but that doesn't mean that we shouldn' get products because there are still players who want them and the fact that we are always put to second place just because it doesn't generates sells well maybe the fact that all the third party companies throw everything the other side if you guyd would throw the pneumatic trigger first to the automag community im sure i have a cople 40 clients that would buy and entire gun which whatever pneumatic assisted frame would came out because i started selling mags because of the demand just from the advertisement of the hair so if it would have actually come out i would probably even sold 5 times what i did so why don't you give us a chance for a change.

We just pay our bills with huggs,dried flowers and good thoughts. and if you can pay your bills like that what is the point of getting money anyway then :p


Unfortunately, you're wrong. As I said above, you deserve nothing, and you are owed nothing. No company is going to drop the capital to bring products to the 'Mag market to sell 200 of them. It's too bad AGD isn't public, so I could show you all the annual reports.

These are still businesses. Do you see Nabisco making food products for every single person with different food intolerances? No. Ford doesn't make cars whose driver's seats go 4 feet back because the cost outweighs the demand. A 'Mag pneu frame is not out now and is probably not a front burner issue because the demand isn't there. AO is NOT all of paintball. AO is a group of 'Mag owners who say they'll buy products.. provided they're sold at cost, out before a user-set deadline, reliable... and unfortunatley, the 150 guys on here who promise to buy a product will result in 50 sales, and that's not enough to cover even initial cost, let alone make a profit. Which is the goal of any business. Behind PTP are people with families who need to make money to support their families, so giving you top notch high quality produt for pennies isn't something they can afford to do, let alone want to do.

So get off PTP's balls and let them go. Don't waste Jay's time sending 400,000 emails, because that's more money PTP has to pay him to do something other than invent/produce stuff. If PTP's Pneu-Mag frame comes out, awesome. If it doesn't come out, then make another thread, but move on with your life and find another option. All you have to blame is the people who always say they'll buy something if produced and then leave the producer on his butt when he drops a few grand in initial cost and then loses all of it... and the lack of 'Mag sales since electros hit the scene.

[teufelhunden]

DW obviously thought there was a big enough market for a new Mag frame or else they wouldn't have put so much time and money into it.

I don't think Tom bailed because the mag's future was grim. I think he bailed because of the industry it's self. If the future was so grim, why would Zupe even bother buying up the inventory and try to keep AGD alive?

There is a good fight out there, just we as players need to make sure the indutry stays in check.

I also think that with some of the rumors of rule changes, a fast mechanical gun might be the way to go. So this frame very well might have saved the mag, but we will never know now.

I believe DW was looking to expand the hAir into other types of markers as well, but don't hold me to that.

We can't say one way or another about the future of AGD without seeing the accounting reports, so I'll leave that one there.

And why have a fast mechanical that's semi when you can go 1-2-3-auto to the BPS cap?

[Muzikman]

Rumor has it that there is no cap on manual guns. So if you can fire an manual gun faster than the cap, you are golden. This is just the rumor and we'll see when the season starts.

[cphilip]

I did, Phil, sorry I forgot to get that memo to ya..

Oh! I stand corrected!!! :D

:p

Lets just tone down the rude and nasty and discuss this like friends.... :cheers:

[RRfireblade]

DW obviously thought there was a big enough market for a new Mag frame or else they wouldn't have put so much time and money into it.

I don't think Tom bailed because the mag's future was grim. I think he bailed because of the industry it's self. If the future was so grim, why would Zupe even bother buying up the inventory and try to keep AGD alive?

There is a good fight out there, just we as players need to make sure the indutry stays in check.

I also think that with some of the rumors of rule changes, a fast mechanical gun might be the way to go. So this frame very well might have saved the mag, but we will never know now.

K, here we go:

1) DW is a 1-2 man operation, to them 50 sales is a big deal. (Same goes for Tunaman a RogueFactor BTW) They can and afford to cater directly to AO, in fact AO is they're primary market and possibly only market.They would likely never had existed in thier current form without AO.

To me, 50 sales mean I don't even make payroll that week.

2) Zupe has pretty much been running AGD almost since the beginning,it was either this or find a new job...basically.

3) I agree about how great a Mech gun can be.The bottom line in Tourny's tho are this;
A) If mech guns start to compete w/ electros for ROF, they WILL get capped as well.
I've already developed a PnueMech that will Ramp...just how long do you think
they'er gonna let a 35bps Mech gun slide?
B) Electro's will always be the main focus for retaillers,that's where the big money is, and
the big margins are.
C) Electro's are far simpler to build cheap,assemble and retail.Not sure yet how much
more than the PnueMech but my guess is a good amount.
D) Yes, we will know 'cause there will be a Mag version if for no other reason but to see
how many of the " I must have one" 's actually cough up the cash and get one.If
your so confident about the potential sales, give me your addy and I'll send you the
bill for any fo them I get stuck with in the end. :D


I believe DW was looking to expand the hAir into other types of markers as well, but don't hold me to that

He was,he's said it. No question.

[warbeak2099]

Jay's got a point. How many people on AO are actually going to cough up the dough for this? Probably not everyone who was all excited about the HAir vid. Let's face it, not everyone here is going to get it. For PTP, the amount of people that do buy it will most likely be relatively small. Maybe around 100 if not less. Let's do a poll on who would buy the pneu frame:

Yes, I have the dough in hand and I'd buy it
Yes, but I don't have the money right now
Yes, but I probably would never be able to come up with that much money (~$300)
No, I am not interested and/or do not have the dough
Maybe, I have the dough but I'd have to think about it a little more
Maybe, I don't really have the dough and I'm undecided


Shall I post this in pbtalk and shut everyone up who's whining and will most likely never buy it even if it comes out?

[the larch]

Ok, let's be blunt. I've been playing since 91. My first semi was a mag.
AGD, while a great company is not focused on us. This idea will not happen unless they make it happen and compete.
Really, it IS on them to make this work. It IS their choice.
A Pneumag (neat name) could blow away the industry from a RELIABILITY AND SPEED stand point. Will it?
WHERE IS AGD IN ALL THIS? It seems that recently they are "waiting for things to settle."
They are losing any chance at a market while this is happening.

Do you really think that PTP will invest in this while AGD isn't confident enough in their own product to actively market it?

[RRfireblade]

This whole thing feels like you are threatening the one market that is trying to support you.(?)



We can't buy products are not being produced. If you don't continue to stimulate the market with NEW products it will die. Personally I think if Tom would have introduced the lvl 10 and the ULE trigger 8 years ago AGD wouldn't be in the slump they are today. The stiff trigger and the chopping is why people gave it up in the first place.

This new frame has the capability of turning AGD around, or at least give them a new start.
Frankly it feels like PTP is standing in the way. :(

Your pretty funny.

Let's see if I have this correct since you seem to have it all figured out:

Mag dealers all over the country INCLUDING AGD with Mags in stock,seeing nothing but a steady decline in marker sales, MSRP price reductions ,the manufacturer themselves cutting there direct pricing,often leaving dealers with old stock that must be sold at a cut profit or loss of, in some cases...that's if they even could be sold at all...complete lack of anything new on the horizon...a decressing marker lineup overall...and nothing more than handfull of 'new' upgrades for existing markers,most of which came years after the need for them was expressed and after which the majority of original die hard fans had already moved on to 'new' and different products.

Hmm, yeah....it was my fault. :rolleyes:



ADDED:

OH, and I'm not threatening anybody. I'm challenging you to rise to the occasion and make your voice heard through your spending dollars.If that had been done 5-7 years ago we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

AND BTW, I'm not exactly sure why you think it's OUR responsibilty to "save" AGD? It's not MY company...you want to save them? Send them a check for 100K and start buying the workers lunch on Fridays. :)

[RRfireblade]

Then let them do it! :ninja:

Oh I see, you now represent DW?

Cool,get in contact with our attorney and we'll get something on paper. :tard:

[thecavemankevin]

Do you really think that PTP will invest in this while AGD isn't confident enough in their own product to actively market it?


BINGO!!

i love AGD as much as any of you, but with the "waiting on the market to settle" attitude, do they expect sales to increase? For the majority of the 90's AGD concentrated on the military market with training tools and riot supression items. So while they did support paintball durring those times, they didn't pay close enough attention to what the paintball market wanted. AGD failed to listen to their market and create what they demanded, until it was too late. The ULE line of products that has inspired some of a reprise in the mag demand is just too late.

So while most of us here on AO, myself included (although i am not so sure anymore) have dreamed of a mag revolution, i doubt it is very likely now. However there is a potential product on the horizon in developement by PTP. Why are you all beating up on RR? He is trying to make a pnue frame possible for the mag....which is what you all seem to want. I am sorry it is not being made DW, but hey that is life. PTP apperantly had theirs in development many years before DW, so they are rightfully the owners of the patent and should be the ones to develope the pnue frame for the whole of the paintball market. And if they choose to develope it for the cocker first, well i think we all know it is their right. But pissing off RR and PTP certainly wont help you get the frame for the mag any sooner. If i was RR, i would be makeing the mag frame less of a priority because of this very thread....but that is just me.

remeber that old addidge, all good things come to those who wait.

I sit patiently waiting for a mag pnue frame from PTP. Thanx RR for all you do. :headbang:

[WARPED1]

Um, PTP has already stated somewhere that a pneu trigger for mags is coming out. morons

[Teamslayer76]

Hmmm.. My simple statment here is that us Non-Emag users love our mags and just don't want to "electout" in paintball. We don't want to jump in the electro bandwagon. So were doing as much as possible [rather what we can do] to get this this pneu-trigger out.
And yes I admit I buy mags alot , in the past 3 months I have gotten 3 new mags and I'd kill to have hAirs or PTP's trigger on em.


And besides you get mech bragging rights.
Also chicks dig mags.

[J.James]

Another thing to consider for slower sales is durability . My classic valved mag still works like new, and the thing is ten years old . Unfortunately(or fortunately) thats what stops me from buying a BRAND new one, which over a broader scale would cause slow marker sales. Plus your AVERAGE young gun goin to the store w/ mom & pops is either buying bottom of the shelf plastic junk or they'r gettin a $1700.00 Shocker w/ all the SHINY parts . Wich leaves the mag pretty stagnant . Just look what happend to the new autocockers, next thing you kno they'll be sellin them @ Walmart next to the other clones . Regardless of who will make the triggr keep in mind all of the MAGS that are out there , new and old(remember AGD has been building markers for almost 15 years). So theres are alot of POTENTIAL buyers for a pnuMAGtic :D trigger . It's unfortunate that PTP & D/W could not resolve this cuz personally I was inline for the hAIr triggr myself . But remember people this is between two businesses and is not a life or death thing, and hopefully PROTEAM will release a product that is as good or bettr. HAPPY NEW YEAR. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[bunker17]

Anyway hope the new year brings a lot of nice things (including some pneumatic trigger before may) by the way i think i do put my cash where my mouth is or the 22 mags in boxes that are behind me are just lying ;) anyways fighting about this won't do much PTP will be waiting for the frame is the only thing we can do

[frontlinep8tbal]

Seriously, its been an amazing turn of events during the last 10 years with the sport. Would be nice to have a simple game like those late 80's. ONe could hope...

I hope that the frame, from whatever source, does come out. This will in return profit the designers (nicad), maybe spark life into agd sales again by having retailers re-invest in agd products and parts for the mag and ultimately get more people to the fields. This helps everyone out.

Honestly, I dont know if many others are in the same boat as myself when looking for parts, goto different shops local to your area and see only boneyard parts for mags, that wouldnt even help the least while looking at the showcases to find brand "*INSERT OTHER MARKER HERE*" parts galore. This is because we the consumers are not investing into the particular companies enough to warrant them to provide the products we want. When the day is said and done all buisnesses care about is numbers. Just the same with the patents issues. Yes it may seem unethical to many what a number of these companies are doing by limiting or shelving other companies from producing possbile new markets, but its all about dollar bills before the consumer.

This following paragraph is aimed to all that cannot see from a buisness point of view with DW, SP, PTP, or any other company your taking your fustration out on because your not getting what you want.

IF your not having fun with what you have or getting the products you want for your marker, move onto something else that can make the sky rain with paint and has more options then a barbie doll.. IMHO the mag evolved into an extremely solid efficient gun that needs very little maintence. This is the major factor keeping me from parting with my setup despite the fact that gettting anything for it is now increasingly difficult. ROF doesnt mean anything if you cant hit your target. Its amazing on the amount of people that do not understand this concept. Majority of players are rec-ballers. After the days done and you go home and count your welts and the left over dollars in your wallet, your out there to have fun. Practice your skills, work on improving them everytime you play, and you find out that you dont need the 26bps to keep up with a 2k gun that sprays and prays. See you all on the field. :)

FRANK

[rabidchihauhau]

I'm starting my own email writing campaign.

I want everyone to write to Pro-Team Products right NOW and request that they don't license the pneu frame to anyone, ever.

Please encourage them to keep it to themselves;

Please ask PTP to hurry up and make a pneu trigger for the cocker and for the blow-back semi-autos.

Please ask them to make tens of thousands of them, so they can sell them at a competitive price and make a really good profit margin.

Then, maybe, when PTP has made some bank, the company will be able to afford being generous and can then make parts to support the 'mag niche market.

[shartley]

Luke,
There are two issues at hand here. One is that PTP owns the patent rights to the product. And the other is whether it is worth it for them to rush into production of a product that may not sell in the numbers needed to justify its production.

It is all fine and well to just say let the small guy who can’t afford to conduct business in the proper manner do what he/she wants because what they make would be chump change for the larger business, but that is not how business works. But I see this mentality all the time with small businesses, and more so with small paintball businesses. They think they can do anything they want because they will fly under the radar. They break any laws they want, infringe upon other peoples patents and copyrights, and generally feel that the “big guy” is evil so they will do what they darn well want.

Again, that is not how business works. And sometimes a product simply will not be made because of various issues, some being laws, others being licensing fees and royalties. And sometimes the company simply can’t afford the startup costs associated with a product.

However, PTP should just let any company who can not afford to conduct business properly just make whatever they want using something PTP owns the rights to simply because Mag owners want it? Sorry, limited number products as well as specialty or niche products must follow the laws and rules of business the same as any other product/company. But that seems to be lost here on AO by a good many members.

This is not an issue of PTP being the bad guy, but that DW didn’t follow the rules of business and development, or can not. If DW can not afford to play the game in this case, that is on HIM, not on PTP. And instead of folks complaining about it, why not donate funds to DW so he CAN afford it? It is not PTP’s job to allow other companies to get a free ride on something they own the rights to. It is up to each company/person who wants to make a product to do so in the correct and legal manner. And sorry folks, sometimes that means that products can NOT be made.

And from what I keep reading, PTP is NOT saying they will NOT make a Mag frame. They just want to see a justification for it. And that means more than a hand full of very vocal players on an internet forum.

Also, RR was not saying actually “support” the Mag market were the cause of the decline in Mag sales. I believe he was saying the VOCAL supporters but those who do not BUY the Mags are… as well as the market in general. It is the overall lack of support for Mags by the playing public that causes the decline in product sales, not those who ARE buying them. So then we have to look to WHY the general public is not buying the product in the numbers needed.

And sorry, you can then not try to put that blame on PTP.


Another thing to consider for slower sales is durability . My classic valved mag still works like new, and the thing is ten years old . Unfortunately(or fortunately) thats what stops me from buying a BRAND new one, which over a broader scale would cause slow marker sales. Plus your AVERAGE young gun goin to the store w/ mom & pops is either buying bottom of the shelf plastic junk or they'r gettin a $1700.00 Shocker w/ all the SHINY parts . Wich leaves the mag pretty stagnant . Just look what happend to the new autocockers, next thing you kno they'll be sellin them @ Walmart next to the other clones . Regardless of who will make the triggr keep in mind all of the MAGS that are out there , new and old(remember AGD has been building markers for almost 15 years). So theres are alot of POTENTIAL buyers for a pnuMAGtic :D trigger . It's unfortunate that PTP & D/W could not resolve this cuz personally I was inline for the hAIr triggr myself . But remember people this is between two businesses and is not a life or death thing, and hopefully PROTEAM will release a product that is as good or bettr. HAPPY NEW YEAR. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
I am sorry but that is just not correct. The durability of the Mag is not the reason for slower sales. Why? Because all other brands of markers have a high turnover rate yet their time for “turnover” is NOT because the marker does not work any more. It is because the player just wants another marker, either from the same company, or a different one.

It is like cars, some folks drive their car into the ground and then buy another. While others drive their car for a year or two and then get a newer model. It has virtually nothing to do with “durability” of the car or if it still works or not. Mags simply never had the “new models” or “different” models to choose from. Thus, why get rid of you Mag to buy a new Mag? And the relatively few new products for Mags NOW, by small 3rd party businesses, are simply not enough to create the “want” for the average player off the street that would probably not even know they exist.

I too agree though that there is a “potential” market for the new frame/trigger system. But I put the blame for DW not making them on DW, not PTP. And this is not a “bad” blame, more so responsibility. I am sure PTP would be more than willing to work with DW, as they said they would. But as with all sales, PTP does not need to give their rights away for free….. as too many seem to think here on AO. And how low they go is up to PTP and what THEY think is reasonable, not what folks on an internet forum do.

I too hope that things get worked out so that the end customer gets what is possible. And I am sure over time they WILL, if Mags continue to sell and AGD keeps its doors open. But Mag owners need to realize that they are now on the bottom of the list of priorities, not the top.

[RRfireblade]

Luke:

This will be my last response to you in this regard,

1) Mags have been a dying breed for years, AGD has not been able to do anything to change that and it's simple not anybody elses responsibility but thiers. Go wine at Zupe to cut a deal with DW (they're the one's who bailed on DW),go whine at Zupe to cut a deal with PTP,go whine at Zupe to come out with a product that will bring Mags back,go whine at Zupe to build a new Electro,go whine at Zupe to get more Tourny exposure.....

2) The Law is the Law, a Patent is Patent...doesn't matter if Microsoft is infringing or some young kid selling lemonade on the corner.If you've invested many thousands of dollars in the Patent,you simple must enforce it accross the board.We are not the boy scouts,we are forced to deal with legal product issues everyday and we are now where near the size of the 'Big" guys, why is DW so special? He clearly stated he was aimed at all other possible markets, you think he's a boy scout too? He's going to biuld,buy and sell where ever he can,Mags were only the begining. How do you know if his 'other' versions took off more than the Mag,he wouldn't put the Mag on the back burner?He can only build so many so fast,where do you think his priority would be,50 sales here at A.O. or 500 at A.I.R. ?


You’re preaching to us saying the market sucks and it the fault of the people that support it... And if your not, that's the way it's comming across to me....

I'm not sure why this keeps getting so twisted, I'll try one last time...

The Mag market sucks because the paintball buying public as whole does not buy,use or want Mags or Mag products.I'm not talking about the small handfull of people on this Forum, it's the the 'whole' paintball market new and old.When I used the word "YOU", I was refering to the you the consumer. Try this just for grins..next time your out playing ask how many 'newbs' want a Mag or even know what one is. Now ask them about an Autocker...an Angel...an Intimidator. Now you know why Mags are dead and what is killing them. Go ahead and whine at Zupe about that too.

That's as clear as I can possibly explain it,I guess if you just don't understand perhaps apparently you never will. If that's the case,I really don't have the motivation to continue to explain the way business works to you so I guess it'll just have to be.

Hope you had a nice New year.

Jay.

[Lee]

Rumor has it that there is no cap on manual guns. So if you can fire an manual gun faster than the cap, you are golden. This is just the rumor and we'll see when the season starts.

and once (or if ) it's seen that pneumatically assisted mech frames can exceed the bps limit, there will be a rule dealing with that, possibly a new marker category with it's own regulations.
just because it's not electric doesn't mean it can't be governed by a ruling.

as to the tone of this thread: i liked the idea of the hAIR. i like it alot less now due to all the p'ing & m'ing.
no one owes anyone a thing. buy from ptp or don't. everyones little worlds will still circle the sun.

[Lee]

I don't think Tom bailed because the mag's future was grim. I think he bailed because of the industry it's self. If the future was so grim, why would Zupe even bother buying up the inventory and try to keep AGD alive?


i think tom got while the getting was good and that zupe didn't buy a company.....he bought warehouse and shop space, machines and employees. theres no telling what his plans are. he could be waiting to piece it out a table ata time for all we know.

i also think zupes smart for not coming on here and telling us his plans. very few would like or agree with it no matter what they are and every closet genious on the forums would have to chime in with thier opinion of what he really should be doing.

who said he's trying to keep agd alive? if he said that on a thread somewhere, please link me to it because i apparently missed it.

[Timmee]

I really hope a pneumatic assist trigger frame comes out for the 'Mag, but one thing I'm still trying to figure out is, how is the idea patentable in the first place? The Vector, 'Nova 700, and others have had pneumatic triggers for a long time. Also, Punisher made a pneumatic assist 'Mag quite a while ago. Don't these examples count as prior art, when determining whether a patent can be issued?

[Eric Cartman]

If PT is not going to produce it because the cost of production out weighs it return, please simply say so and we’ll move on. :cheers:



I'm already doing everything I can to make the Mag version a possibility and hopefully as soon as reasonably possible. It has always been "my" first priority and it continues to be so…
...We (PTP) have some major and hopefully, settling legal finalizations coming up in a few weeks,after then I should have a much better estimate on the amount of time before you all start to see a light at the end of the tunnel. I will also foward this thread to those who need to see it,that will get you (AO) the best possible voice in the outcome of this product…

…There's not much more info I can offer at this time…
Hang in there, it's still in the works and as far as I know, high on the list.

Thanks,

Jay.


Seems pretty clear to me.

[Eric Cartman]

And FYI, we are open to agreements with 'Anyone' who wishes to manufacture a similar product in co-operation wtih PTP,it's not our fault that certain companies or people do not have the finacial resources to make that arrangement.


No, our patent was not denied.. (amazing how speculation is so easily stated as fact).
It is still going forward. It has been filed, in the system, and all that good stuff.

The decision is based compleatly on the financial/resources aspect.



…We've been advised that our remaining options are expensive ones,
and since we have already overspent resources in the development of this
product, we have decided to shelve it for now and focus on our other
projects.

Again, we apologize for keeping everyone waiting on this. We do hope to revive this in the future, either when we can again justify allocating resources, or once we form partnerships that enable us to do so.

Colin Moritz
Deadlywind


Go wine at Zupe to cut a deal with DW (they're the one's who bailed on DW),go whine at Zupe to cut a deal with PTP


There are a lot of things that we just don’t know. We don’t know the details of the negotiations between Deadlywind and PTP. We don’t know why AGD “bailed on DW”. We don’t know how many of these frames would have to be produced by AGD, DW, PTP or a partnership between any two or more of these companies in order for it to be profitable / feasible. Although there has been an incredible amount of interest in the hAir, very few people have actually used it and even fewer people have seen / used the PTP version. So at the end of the day, we don’t know what kind of demand there will be for this product.

I don’t expect all of this to be made public, but without that information, all we have is speculation and educated (and in many cases, not so educated :) ) guesses. RRfireblade is going to try to get a video of this product up soon:



RR, that was on the 30th of Sept. Any idea of when we might see some video teasers of the mag version?


I'll try an do one as soon as I get the chance.

Let’s see this thing in action. This will help to determine how much interest there is in the product (at least as far as the internet paintball community goes). Maybe then we can get an estimate of the price and some other details (ie, drop in mod / completely new frame etc.). Once more information is available, perhaps PTP could look into letting people pre-order. If there’s a big enough number of people willing to put their money where their mouths are, then this will become more of a priority. If there’s enough money to be made, then someone’s going to produce this product, but it’s not going to happen overnight.
:cheers:

[RRfireblade]

:)


RRfireblade your posts do FEEL like your slapping us in the face, and I still don’t see your MOTAVE for your particular point of view. ;) We are simply telling you we will buy the frame if it’s produced. If PT is not going to produce it because the cost of production out weighs it return, please simply say so and we’ll move on. :cheers:


I'm not sure why you get that 'feeling' from me. All I have been saying since the very begining is that even though the Pnuemag was NOT a priority with PTP initially, I've been doing everything I can to make it one....for them and for the loyal steadfast Maggers.

As far as you and me, all I was doing was trying to explain why such priorities exist...which seemed to be hard for you understand based on the questions,allegations and how you assigned blame for the plight of AGD. To that is all I can respond.Hopefully that is all clear and understandable now and the point of this thread can continue.

BTW,I don't take internet discussions personal so as far as you and me I don't see where there should be any problems...I hope there aren't, I definately never intended for them to be.If you got a bad feeling from me some how, I appologize, perhaps intent and inflection due get lost in text.

So....

Anything else? :D

[bunker17]

well fireblade i run the pol to see how would sell go if you would release the trigger today and you where right people are not ready to put their " dough" on the table for the frame right now the poll has 54 reply's and oly 13 of them got the money right now while 21 are interested yet don't have the money, 3 say they would never get that kind of money and the other people are undecided or don't want to buy for some other reasons.
Anywya i would like to have a frame

[luke]

I'm not sure why you get that 'feeling' from me. All I have been saying since the very begining is that even though the Pnuemag was NOT a priority with PTP initially, I've been doing everything I can to make it one....for them and for the loyal steadfast Maggers.

As far as you and me, all I was doing was trying to explain why such priorities exist...which seemed to be hard for you understand based on the questions,allegations and how you assigned blame for the plight of AGD. To that is all I can respond.Hopefully that is all clear and understandable now and the point of this thread can continue.

BTW,I don't take internet discussions personal so as far as you and me I don't see where there should be any problems...I hope there aren't, I definately never intended for them to be.If you got a bad feeling from me some how, I appologize, perhaps intent and inflection due get lost in text.

So....

Anything else? :D

You know what you’re absolutely right. I take back every thing I said. I forgot the #1 rule of hanging out on AO, I haven’t crossed that line in over 3 years. My bad… :argh:

[thorn]

www.automags.org[/url] community. I believe that this would be both a profitable venture for you, and would lead to the gratification of the 'mag shooting community. What am I trying to say in this letter? You crushed a companies hopes of releasing a product that is, like, eleventy billion times better than yours, when we would rather have DeadlyWinds. Polls on AutoMags.org have shown that people would rather buy DeadlyWinds products than PTP's. Therefore, if you made them shelve a seemingly better product, you better pull something out of your butts and make us stop waiting, by getting this product out within two months. AGD is dying, automags are dying, and if you don't freaking do something about it, we will all point our fingers at YOU and accuse you RIGHTFULLY of KILLING AGD.

thank you for your time,
Ryan F.
P.S. I hate you.

[teufelhunden]

Hello,
It is my understanding that legal differences between yourselves and DeadlyWind has lead to the abandonment of their soon-to-be flagship product, a pneumatic trigger system for the AGD automag. I a also under the impression that you are in development of a system similar in operation, I am urging you to release this frame for the automag, as well as your planned releases, there is a large willing customer base, exemplified by the www.automags.org community. I believe that this would be both a profitable venture for you, and would lead to the gratification of the 'mag shooting community. What am I trying to say in this letter? You crushed a companies hopes of releasing a product that is, like, eleventy billion times better than yours, when we would rather have DeadlyWinds. Polls on AutoMags.org have shown that people would rather buy DeadlyWinds products than PTP's. Therefore, if you made them shelve a seemingly better product, you better pull something out of your butts and make us stop waiting, by getting this product out within two months. AGD is dying, automags are dying, and if you don't freaking do something about it, we will all point our fingers at YOU and accuse you RIGHTFULLY of KILLING AGD.

thank you for your time,
Ryan F.

Yeah, that's how to go about it.. tell them that nobody wants their product but they should make it anyway. And then blame them for something they have nothing to do with.

Good call.

[thorn]

actually, i was just kind of adding another paragraph...
my point is that agd and automags are slowly dying..i hate to say it, but its true.
if someone doesnt do something then they will go down.
when dw tried to do something, and another company stops them, then that sort of is hurting agd.

[teufelhunden]

PTP IS NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG, NOR HAVE THEY DONE ANYTHING WRONG.

PTP has simply enforced their patent. Legal, acceptable, and everywhere but paintball, expected.

That said, it's nobody's business to save AGD except for AGD. Despite all the good Tom did for paintball and AGD, he signed the death letter by letting AGD simmer during the late nineties when he focused on military/LE equipment.

Now there's not much to be done. Either you can buy more 'Mags, or Zupe can figure out what he needs to do to save AGD. The problem is not with the company, the problem is with the products. The biggest products are Warps and obviously 'Mags. The problem there is that both products have very loyal users, except new users are few and far between. And it seems with guns that the new users are buying used guns. The solution is come up with something new and revolutionary that people will buy.. think Automags in the early nineties, except geared for today's game.


Oh, and don't kid yourselves, DW was not trying to bring out the hAir to save AGD. They were lookin to make some bucks. That's why Colin said he was going to expand outside of 'Mags.. if he really wanted to "save" AGD he'd keep the hAir 'Mag only, forcing people to buy a 'Mag if they want a hAir.

[kenndogg]

www.automags.org[/url] community. I believe that this would be both a profitable venture for you, and would lead to the gratification of the 'mag shooting community. What am I trying to say in this letter? You crushed a companies hopes of releasing a product that is, like, eleventy billion times better than yours, when we would rather have DeadlyWinds. Polls on AutoMags.org have shown that people would rather buy DeadlyWinds products than PTP's. Therefore, if you made them shelve a seemingly better product, you better pull something out of your butts and make us stop waiting, by getting this product out within two months. AGD is dying, automags are dying, and if you don't freaking do something about it, we will all point our fingers at YOU and accuse you RIGHTFULLY of KILLING AGD.

thank you for your time,
Ryan F.
P.S. I hate you.


I seriously hope you didn't send that email. Way to be mature about things. You trash their products but yet you encourage them to hurry up and release it? Providing them a link with suggestive polls don't mean jack. Last time I checked the paintball community doesn't revolve around AO. How can you expect to be taken seriously by being an idiot. I'm sure whoever reads that email will get a chuckle and than promptly delete it. If PTP gets too many of these idiotic emails I wouldn't be too surprised if they decided to put the pnue-mag on the back burner for more lucrative markets. I mean why waste money on a small niche market with ungracious customers when you can target a bigger market(blowbacks and cockers) who will snatch it up like hotcakes. Want to help AGD and Deadly Wind? Then send them a nice fat check to cover their financial needs so they can get the hAir on the market.
just my .02 cents

[rabidchihauhau]

Thorn,

"You crushed a companies hopes of releasing a product that is, like, eleventy billion times better than yours"

YOU ARE COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY INCORRECT

1. the hAir was mechanically complicated; the Pneutrigger has MUCH better engineering
2. the hAir was relatively expensive to manufacture; the Pneutrigger design took mfg into consideration and is easier/simpler to manufacture
3. the hAir is a 'concept' design (let's see what we can do): the Pneutrigger was purpose-built to achieve a series of design goals, was approached in a phased manner and has many, many generations of development built into the idea. There were engineering requirements for things like safety, cross-platform application, etc., that were taken into consideration before the first screw was set.

4. No one 'crushed' anyones hopes: if you are in a technologically based design and manufacturing business, you MUST take into account the strategic issues of intellectual property - which means obtaining it for yourself and being aware that others are doing the same. If someone wants to display their secret designs in public, then they, and they alone, have to deal with the consequences.

DW was the sole decision maker in deciding not to work things out with PTP. I'm sorry if they and you think that they invented the damn thing first, but I am here to tell you that the genesis for PTP's work on the idea dates back to pre-2000 days and DW are not the only people in the world who are capable of inventing cool high-tec for paintball. In fact, the list of designs that PTP 'lost' in manners similar to what DW is going through now would fill a medium-sized filing cabinet (because they never got a patent in on them).

In conclusion - the PTP trigger is going to be a gazillion times BETTER than anyone else's thing and you're going to be glad that it is!

[luke]

1. the hAir was mechanically complicated; the Pneutrigger has MUCH better engineering

2. the hAir was relatively expensive to manufacture; the Pneutrigger design took mfg into consideration and is easier/simpler to manufacture

3. the hAir is a 'concept' design (let's see what we can do): the Pneutrigger was purpose-built to achieve a series of design goals, was approached in a phased manner and has many, many generations of development built into the idea. There were engineering requirements for things like safety, cross-platform application, etc., that were taken into consideration before the first screw was set.

In conclusion - the PTP trigger is going to be a gazillion times BETTER than anyone else's thing and you're going to be glad that it is!

I’m curious where you got this information at?

[teufelhunden]

He worked for PTP til about the beginning of November, IIRC.

[j.storm]

My wish is that when (cross fingers) PTP releases their Mag version, that A: the thing'll work, and B: They either make it in the intelliframe or something as good or better (hint hint RRfireblade ;) ). I will pay money for a well made, pretty product. Plus, that whole intelliframe lets me stay outta the mega-hopper world......love that 12v Revvy baby!
oh yeah, and are mags really dead? I see them at wood fields all the time.

[RRfireblade]

---- Original Message ----
From: -----------@yahoo.com
To: sales@proteamproducts.com
Subject: FW: WE WANT OUR HAir Trigger
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 11:46:28 -0800 (PST)

YOU OWE AGD, let us a have our HAir trigger. Leave
Deadly Wind Paintball alone! Stop pulling that Smart
Parts crap on us.



Nice. :rolleyes:

Keep 'em coming.

[lbonettosd]

Hopefully who ever sent you that email isn't a motivational speaker... :rolleyes:

[teufelhunden]

He blanked out the email because it was someone from here..

[Eric Cartman]

---- Original Message ----
From: -----------@yahoo.com
To: sales@proteamproducts.com
Subject: FW: WE WANT OUR HAir Trigger
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 11:46:28 -0800 (PST)

YOU OWE AGD, let us a have our HAir trigger. Leave
Deadly Wind Paintball alone! Stop pulling that Smart
Parts crap on us.



Nice. :rolleyes:

Keep 'em coming.

:tard: :rofl: That's why first cousins / siblings shouldn't breed. Sadly, I'm sure you'll get a lot worse than that. Some of 'em will be worth a laugh anyway.

[Chronobreak]

jay i hope your not taking much time to read e-mails its prob a waste unles your board.

sad thing is these seemingly uneducated e-mails are from ao'ers that i thought were samrt and had soem clue about how biz works and why the products arent out yet..


heck while were at it where are those warp slugs toms promisex years ago.?????

lets all e-mail agd to get the warp slugs made NOW! :rolleyes:

[nato]

I sent out my lengthy, (insert edited word here) email.

***EDIT*** educated^

N.A.T.O.

[tyrion2323]

My goodness. Seriously people, stop whining. Threatening letters and half-cocked arguments are both useless and immature. If you want a fast marker, purchase one. Otherwise, stop complaining!

If you want the speed of an electronic-marker, then buy an electronic marker. Just because some people on these boards trash-talk them and their owners doesn't mean that Electros are bad markers.

[nato]

I emailed them and recieved this email, "Keep your eyes on the website.* We will be keeping everyone posted on the what we are working on.*

*

Regards,

*

Tracy L. Hatcher

*

www.proteamdirect.com
www.benchmarkpaintball.com
www.armsonusa.com
www.gunfx.com
www.VLProseries.com"

I didn't think it was a big deal to email them politely.

N.A.T.O.