Firearm Experts: Hollywood fact or fiction? [Archive]

Army

12-31-2004, 06:52 AM

Well, not totally bogus.

There have been very finely built take-down rifles that will not lose their zero no matter how many pieces come apart, including the scope and mount. However, Hollywood doesn't use these!

Most firearm prop houses for movies are owned and operated by very weapon savvy people, it's the ignorant directors that want to toss in some mad wild weapon system to fool the viewers. Best example is the older James Bond flicks featuring the AR-7 take down rifle. Q himself, touts it as the finest grade sniper rifle to ever grace the halls of MI6, and the director has the gun going "BOOM" when fired....except that it is just a .22 rimfire that barely makes a decent "bang".

All this goes along with the 15 shot revolvers, and magazine fed pistols that never seem to run out of ammo.

So, how about we settle on factual fantasies? :D

Will Wood

12-31-2004, 11:14 AM

What do you know about the AK - sniper model?
Someone from my school had one but I had never heard of it. I almost bought it .. but I didn't out of knowing nothing about it.

50 cal

12-31-2004, 11:30 AM

HS Precision makes some 1st rate takedown rifles. They break down into a package that fits inside a small briefcase.
So no, it's not fiction.

Will Wood,
Those Dragunov copies are pretty hit and miss when it comes tot he accuracy dep't. Some shoot great, most don't. I have a friend that has one of the copies. It's lucky to hit 2.5" at 100 yds. My M14/21 copy will group 5 shots 1.75" at 300 yd. Semi auto's aren't very condusive to pin point accuracy. Some do. It's hit and miss and you have to factor in the knowledge of the person that built it up.

SCpoloRicker

12-31-2004, 11:51 AM

I am, however, familiar with some of what's being discussed.

"Take-down" rifles that can be used effectively at longer ranges (~5-700 :confused: ) do exist; but not in the exact context you are describing. I know HK makes a semi-auto rifle good out to around 750 yds that can break down into a Pelican case. There are others also.

But, they "break-down" into a two and a half foot long case. The movie example of the assasin pulling parts out of his coat, screwing them together, and firing silenced rounds 400 yds is not realistic.

Side note: Another movie shot I despise is the "zooming binoculars/scope" Every movie with a man on a rifle shows him "tracking" his mark, while the camera zooms in on his face. Scopes are static!

Double side note: I dig Michael Mann gunplay. Heat is obviously kickbutt, but I just picked up Collateral. Man, Tommy gets down in this film. Super cool, realistically styled weapon use. As in quick draw from hip holster, double tap center mass left foe; shift to Weaver, double tap center mass-single tap forehead right foe; walk over and forehead tap first foe. All in a sec and a half :ninja:

WingMan13

12-31-2004, 11:55 AM

What do you know about the AK - sniper model?
Someone from my school had one but I had never heard of it. I almost bought it .. but I didn't out of knowing nothing about it.

You sure it wasn't maybe a SKS rifle?

WingMan13

12-31-2004, 12:14 PM

Here's a link to the HK XM8, which is supposed to replace the M-16. A qoute in their site: "The attachment points for the standard multi-function integrated red-dot sight allow multiple mounting positions and insure 100% zero retention even after
the sight is removed and remounted". NICE! http://www.hkdefense.us/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/xm8.html

CaptaiN_JacK

12-31-2004, 12:43 PM

At least the movie directors have some gun action realistic, like when they accurately fire a machine gun with one hand, or one in each hand, that's usually pretty easy to do :rolleyes:

lord1234

12-31-2004, 01:04 PM

i did like how in the matrix they threw guns away when the rounds were spent...thats smart.

TheDuelist

12-31-2004, 01:22 PM

The "AK" sniper rifle you are asking about may be the Dragunov SVD. I'm not sure without a better description.

Check out this link

http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0200/223.htm

brianlojeck

12-31-2004, 01:34 PM

i did like how in the matrix they threw guns away when the rounds were spent...thats smart.

man... now I've got that base line running through my head... only way to get it out is to finish the sequence in my mind...

beep
"please remove any metallic items you may be carrying. Keys, loose change.."
swish
"Holy (beep)!"
Thud
tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat
"Backup! send backup!"
beep
tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat
boot-boot-boot-boot-boot-boot-boot-boot-boot
click-chunk
"FREEZE!"
glance
base guitar

ah... much better...

sharpshooter1286

12-31-2004, 02:00 PM

that whole scene was so outrageously awesome...especially the part when trinity grabs the dudes shotgun and then ends up behind him and blasts him in the back :shooting: :wow:

brianlojeck

12-31-2004, 02:48 PM

am I the only one who can't stop hearing that base line while playing paintball?

who watches that gunfight and feels a sudden need to play 'ball?

who play's 'ball and feels a sudden need to watch that gunfight?

I think I have a problem...

MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata

12-31-2004, 03:26 PM

1stdeadeye

12-31-2004, 04:27 PM

Best example is the older James Bond flicks featuring the AR-7 take down rifle. Q himself, touts it as the finest grade sniper rifle to ever grace the halls of MI6, and the director has the gun going "BOOM" when fired....except that it is just a .22 rimfire that barely makes a decent "bang".

Bwahahaha! That is right it blows up a helicopter with 1 shot! :rofl:

Destructo6

12-31-2004, 04:44 PM

What do you know about the AK - sniper model?
If you're talking about the Dragunov, it's not an AK. It uses an entirely different receiver and uses a short stroke gas piston, as opposed to the AK's long stroke.

It's not really a sniper rifle as you and I might think of one. It's a designated marksman rifle, for use by infantry troops to take out targets which need more precision than the average AK can give, like machinegun bunkers.

Real Dragunov SVDs are very expensive, mainly due to the various import restrictions. There are Romanian knock-offs (FPK) that use the RPK receiver and a long stroke piston, but they are not Dragunovs.

i did like how in the matrix they threw guns away when the rounds were spent...thats smart.
Why's that? How much more ammo could you carry if you weren't carrying a bunch of guns? 3-6lb per gun - that's a lot of ammo.

I loved the way that 7.62x51 brass was falling out of his Skorpion (.32acp) in that film: classic Hollywood cheese.

Sparq

12-31-2004, 05:57 PM

All this goes along with the 15 shot revolvers, and magazine fed pistols that never seem to run out of ammo.

Army of Darkness - Double Barreled, break-action shotgun (Boomstick!) which for some reason fires three shots before being reloaded. You can find it in the sporting goods section.

On the same note, anyone who knows about the history of the M-16 assault rifle...did they have the modern 'bird cage' stye flash hiders in Vietnam? I have seen the more pointed flash hider from the early M-16s, but I was watching some movie...Tigerland I believe...and noticed what I believed to be the newer style.

HoppysMag

12-31-2004, 06:55 PM

a SVD is a very good rifle. but isnt a sniper rifle. its a squad level marksman rifle ( like the M14 is being used today in iraq)

"Side note: Another movie shot I despise is the "zooming binoculars/scope" Every movie with a man on a rifle shows him "tracking" his mark, while the camera zooms in on his face. Scopes are static! "

what are you trying to say? that you can shoot a moving target with a scoped weapon? cause il argue that you damn well can. it will obviously take more skill. and a real sniper would not take the shot if he had the option.

the thing in movies i hate, is when they shoot through a glass window and pick off the hostage taker or something. not many snipers would shoot through glass. as glass plays some nasty tricks with a rounds ballistics. i also hate how a flipped over table or empyt 55 gallon drum can stop a bullet. i also hate the sniper automatic pistol set ups. as anyone knows floating barrels 99% of the time have crap accuracy at any distance

some nam era rifles might have had that style of cage, im not an expert on the m16 but i believe the majority of A1's had the 3 pronged.

drg

12-31-2004, 07:23 PM

Double side note: I dig Michael Mann gunplay. Heat is obviously kickbutt,

Second this in a big way. Heat gets my vote for best gunfight on film in history.

TheDuelist

12-31-2004, 07:26 PM

I believe the original M16 had the 3 prong and the A1 went to the birdcage. I have heard stories of the original 3 prong causing problems in the jungle with snagging on vines and things like that.

Some info I dug up about the M16

http://www.ar15.com/content/articles/history/evolution.html

brianlojeck

12-31-2004, 09:24 PM

"Side note: Another movie shot I despise is the "zooming binoculars/scope" Every movie with a man on a rifle shows him "tracking" his mark, while the camera zooms in on his face. Scopes are static! "

what are you trying to say? that you can shoot a moving target with a scoped weapon? cause il argue that you damn well can.

I think he means the scope zooms like a camera's zoom lens, changing magnification

Carbon

01-01-2005, 01:01 AM

Woot. I do agree heat had pretty much the best gunfight sceene in any movie. Simply for the fact that it wasnt really a traditional hollywood gunfight. The sceene resembled a bounding overwatch/peelout manuver small cammando units would do. The only thing i wished there was more of in that sceene would be a birds eye view of their escape.

Destructo6

01-01-2005, 02:51 AM

Woot. I do agree heat had pretty much the best gunfight sceene in any movie. Simply for the fact that it wasnt really a traditional hollywood gunfight. The sceene resembled a bounding overwatch/peelout manuver small cammando units would do.
There is a reason for that. "Andy McNabb", co-author of Bravo Two Zero and former SAS member, consulted on that film. Can you believe they actually took cover and reloaded, in the same scene no less!

Some scopes do have variable magnification. It's not exactly something you'd use while drawing a bead on a target, though.

drg

01-01-2005, 05:52 AM

I'll play devil's advocate and say that the zoom is used as a visual technique to represent the focusing of the shooter's attention on the target as he sights in. It's not meant to be literal ...

But I guess if the crosshairs grew with the zoom, it would be technically correct.

Army

01-01-2005, 06:42 AM

I am, however, familiar with some of what's being discussed.

Side note: Another movie shot I despise is the "zooming binoculars/scope" Every movie with a man on a rifle shows him "tracking" his mark, while the camera zooms in on his face. Scopes are static!

This too is another silly peave of mine. Along with all the silly blinking lights/ranging numbers and dozens of reticles, the bigger laugh is the ability to hear through the scope or bino's from 500yds!

...And why does the actor suddenly look up from the scope in surprise whenever their target looks back at them? It's not like they can see what the shooter is doing...he's 500yds away!

Sparq

01-02-2005, 12:21 AM

Glickman

01-02-2005, 12:29 AM

wow, i never realized a brandy new ar15 only costs as much as a 03 Trix...

CaptaiN_JacK

01-02-2005, 11:33 PM

Did anyobdy see Behind Enemy Lines? The last scene is TERRIBLE, it made the whole movie bad. The bad guys had 30+ guys and about 6 personel carriers or tanks, ak-47s, pistols, big machine guns. The good guy was OUT IN THE OPEN, no cover whatsoever, AND THEY MISSED HIM!!! I'm almost certain I could have shot him with my 80 year old .22 with plain sights. And they were only like 30-40 yards away. I was practically screaming at the tv. Then you see a sniper in a ghillie suit STANDING UP in the middle of the bad guys and a good guy in a helicopter sees him, says, "sniper in the open", and a good guy in a diff. helicopter like 70 yards away from the sniper takes a regular machine gun, fires one shot, and takes him out. Wow, and I thought the matrix was unreal.

Boski51

01-03-2005, 01:20 AM

Im pretty sure you all have seen the movie where the hitman find his sniping spot and then proceeds to assemble his rifle for that 350+ yrd shot.

This bogus correct? As the zero from that rifle would wander from attaching/re-attaching the scope and other parts. Yes?

As was stated; not too much BS. A 350 yrd shot is not that difficult anyway. No head shots, no moving targets, no wind or heat and you can make a 350 center mass shot with a well aimed iron sighted shot. A trained shooter could do that off hand (standing). I forget the palma national match course of fire, but i think they do off hand shooting at that distance.

FLame me if I am wrong about the palma distance.

BTW: Best long range sniper weapon for movies: 50 cal barnett rifle with a powerful scope. headshot at a mile a way.....neat idea, great on film, hard to do in real life!

Southpaw

01-03-2005, 10:34 AM

HoppysMag

01-03-2005, 04:03 PM

Blennidae

01-03-2005, 04:30 PM

The 50 cal is not a sniper rifle

As Boski51 pointed out, there is a man named Barrett that would disagree with you. ;) It may not have been its original purpose, but they seem to be pretty popular for those really long shots. :D

lew

01-03-2005, 04:40 PM

As Boski51 pointed out, there is a man named Barrett that would disagree with you. ;) It may not have been its original purpose, but they seem to be pretty popular for those really long shots. :D

As a matter of fact, the two longest range killls were made with .50 caliber weapons: Carlos Hathcock's 2500 yard shot with an M2 machinegun in semi-automatic operation and a Canadian sniper who now holds the record for his 2500 meter shot in Afghanistan.

So, in agreement, .50 caliber rifles can definately be more than just anti-material weapons.

rkjunior303

01-03-2005, 04:41 PM

Second this in a big way. Heat gets my vote for best gunfight on film in history.

you should see that scene in my surround sound...

SCpoloRicker

01-03-2005, 05:27 PM

As a matter of fact, the two longest range killls were made with .50 caliber weapons: Carlos Hathcock's 2500 yard shot with an M2 machinegun in semi-automatic operation and a Canadian sniper who now holds the record for his 2500 meter shot in Afghanistan.

So, in agreement, .50 caliber rifles can definately be more than just anti-material weapons.

Wait, > 2000 yd has been seen in the real world? Also, I'm not sure what an M2 machinegun is, but that's one helluva shot...

lew

01-03-2005, 05:43 PM

Wait, > 2000 yd has been seen in the real world? Also, I'm not sure what an M2 machinegun is, but that's one helluva shot...

The M2 is the .50 caliber machine gun commonly seen on U.S. and allied vehicles.

HoppysMag

01-03-2005, 05:52 PM

hatchock gets bonus points cause im pretty sure he built his gun, the canadian used a issued rifle. and ya mile shots have been seen alot since nam. i was un aware if they had confirmed the cadian kill.

HoppysMag

01-03-2005, 05:55 PM

http://tri.army.mil/LC/cs/csi/sam2mg.jpg
thats a M2, they have differant variants but prettymuch the same
keep in mind, its not exactly a percision instriment

drg

01-03-2005, 06:32 PM

you should see that scene in my surround sound...

I've seen/heard it on mine, and it is something else. ;) The way the sounds echo off the buildings and such.

Blennidae

01-03-2005, 06:45 PM

Wait, > 2000 yd has been seen in the real world?

From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper

The current record for longest range sniper kill is 2,430 metres (7,972 ft), reportedly accomplished by a Canadian sniper in 2002, during the invasion of Afghanistan, using a .50 BMG McMillan bolt-action rifle. This meant that the round had a flight time of four seconds, and a drop of 44.5m (146 ft). The previous record was held by Carlos Hathcock, achieved during the Vietnam War, at a distance of 2,250 m.

tsc

01-03-2005, 07:35 PM

Why does Hathcock get the bonus points?

The Canuck used an ISSUE rifle! Bolt action! That's a freakish 6th sense for what you're doing, not good luck.

SCpoloRicker

01-03-2005, 07:39 PM

keep in mind, its not exactly a percision instriment

Exactly :eek:

tsc: he gets points for using an anti-infantry weapon thats usually mounted to an armored vehicle. Twenty years ago.

SAW

01-03-2005, 07:45 PM

I believe Hathcock got a regular M2, bolted a rifle scope up top, then set it up on a tripod atop a firebase. That's some real firepower.

HoppysMag

01-03-2005, 08:04 PM

Why does Hathcock get the bonus points?

The Canuck used an ISSUE rifle! Bolt action! That's a freakish 6th sense for what you're doing, not good luck.
no no no you misunderstand, the candian used a sniper rifle. hathcock made his rifle. on the spot, out of the equivalant of spare parts
oh and 99% of the sniper world use bolt action rifles.

Boski51

01-03-2005, 08:23 PM

Good snipers with a 30.06 have made kills at ranges approaching mile Granted it was not a one shot one kill but none the less amazing. With rifles like the 338 this range can reach into and past the 1 mile range. The 50 cal is not a sniper rifle it is an anti material weapon designed to take out vehicles, scud missiles, mobile radar units ect. Not to say that it will not work on a person but a bullet that will go through an engine block at over 1 mile is overkill on a human at almost any range. :shooting:

Let me put it to you gently...your correct in the anti-material thing, but wrong in the use of the 50 cal round. Granted it is not used like that everyday. But everyother day-its your round! :headbang: The 50 cal round is a perfect sniper round when you really have to reach out and touch someone. Ask any Marine Scout/Sniper and he'll tell you. Ask any of the 1000 yard shooters and they will tell you the same thing. The 50 was originally an anti-tank round....things that make you go hummmmmm.

SAW

01-03-2005, 08:38 PM

I had no clue the .50 was designed as a AT weapon. WWI, correct?

Boski51

01-03-2005, 08:41 PM

You are right on! That rounds is one of the most successful rounds in use today. Can you say multi-purpose!

HoppysMag

01-03-2005, 08:50 PM

CLOSE! the BMG 50 cal round we know today was made in 1918, and adopted by the US military in 1923. ww1 ended in 1918. but didnt see service

the rifle you might be thinking of was a german antitank rifle chambered in , i believe a heavy 30 cal

edit: oh and this is barrets new toy

http://www.barrettrifles.com/military/images/109b.jpg

Destructo6

01-03-2005, 09:01 PM

a friend of mine is a 50 cal gunner in iraq, and he said the 50cal doesnt even need to make contact, the pressure wave alone can kill a man.
Nah. More like secondary missiles, created by the 50's impact, are deadly, making near-hits as dangerous as a 5.56 hit from the same distance.

Why does Hathcock get the bonus points?

The Canuck used an ISSUE rifle! Bolt action! That's a freakish 6th sense for what you're doing, not good luck.
Issue in the sense that it was issued by the Canadian military. However, those rifles are about as custom/high end as a rifle can get. I'd imagine they cost $10k or more. Certainly not that it takes anything away from the sheer awesomeness of the shot: the best need the best equipment.

CLOSE! the BMG 50 cal round we know today was made in 1918, and adopted by the US military in 1923. ww1 ended in 1918. but didnt see service

the rifle you might be thinking of was a german antitank rifle chambered in , i believe a heavy 30 cal
No, it was developed as an anti-tank cartridge, much like the Austrian 20mm Solothurn and Finnish Lahti, but the M2 .50BMG proved a bit more versitile.

Boski51

01-03-2005, 09:01 PM

REALLY! I always was tought it was a WW1 AT round. Learn something new everyday!!!!!

HoppysMag

01-03-2005, 09:08 PM

Nah. More like secondary missiles, created by the 50's impact, are deadly, making near-hits as dangerous as a 5.56 hit from the same distance.

Issue in the sense that it was issued by the Canadian military. However, those rifles are about as custom/high end as a rifle can get. I'd imagine they cost $10k or more. Certainly not that it takes anything away from the sheer awesomeness of the shot: the best need the best equipment.

No, it was developed as an anti-tank cartridge, much like the Austrian 20mm Solothurn and Finnish Lahti, but the M2 .50BMG proved a bit more versitile.
i dont doubt it was an anti tank round, im saying it didnt see action in ww1

SAW

01-03-2005, 09:09 PM

Wow, talk about redefining my definition of the 50cal. Thanks guys :D

Boski51

01-03-2005, 09:09 PM

Men who can place bullets on quarters from 500+ yards away are artists to the highest degree. Men like these know their shizmit, use the best custom rifles, best custom made rounds and make the impossible seem simple.

Wish I could place a paintball on a quarter at 100 yards (without taking a case of paint to do it)...wouldn't that change the game!

Army

01-04-2005, 06:40 AM

a friend of mine is a 50 cal gunner in iraq, and he said the 50cal doesnt even need to make contact, the pressure wave alone can kill a man. thats sweet

Uhhh...........no.

The bullet must definately strike you to cause damage. Rapidly moving air from the wake of a bullet MAY sting a teeny tiny bit IF the bullet passes but a hair away, but it wouldn't even break the skin, much less kill you.

I've had up to 25mm rounds go by my head. As long as they are still supersonic, bullets do nothing but make a sharp crack as they go by.

Let me clear a few other things up while I'm at it:

The .50 was indeed developed DURING WWI as an anti-tank weapon and round, but not accepted by the Army until 1923, and not fully adopted until 1932 by the entire US military.

Gunny SGT Hathcock mounted his 10 power Unertal scope to the (then common) anti-aircraft sight mount atop a standard M2 machine gun. He sighted it for a creek bed at 2500yds outside their Marine firebase. When a lone VC came to fill canteens, Carlos fired ONE shot at him. When advised by observers that the VC was only injured due to his flopping about on the ground, Carlos replied, "They do that when you shoot them in the head." A patrol later confirmed a head shot at 2500yds. Which is a far cry from 6 shots taken by the Canadian and his Barrett, until one finally found it's mark. Gunny still wins this one.

Currently, the .338 Lapua is gaining much favor as the beyond 1000m round. The .50 is wonderful, but terribly heavy to prance about with.

drg

01-04-2005, 07:30 AM

Side note: Another movie shot I despise is the "zooming binoculars/scope" Every movie with a man on a rifle shows him "tracking" his mark, while the camera zooms in on his face. Scopes are static!

By the way there are such things as variable-power scopes.

Army

01-04-2005, 07:58 AM

By the way there are such things as variable-power scopes.

He's not talking about that kind of zooming in, but about one moment looking at the whole figure of the target and a split second later looking at just his face...with NO movement by the shooter. This usually happens with FIXED power scopes on the big screen. :wow:

Southpaw

01-04-2005, 10:49 AM

Army-
Is this routinely used as a sniper rifle against people or is it primarily used for targets like cars and other Non living targets?

RamboPreacher

01-04-2005, 12:18 PM

my chinese SKS with folding stock and bayonette is a "sniper" gun. it is as accurate as a throwing knife at 30 feet! wooho!!!!

SCpoloRicker

01-04-2005, 12:40 PM

Dirty Dakota

01-04-2005, 12:41 PM

Good snipers with a 30.06 have made kills at ranges approaching mile Granted it was not a one shot one kill but none the less amazing.

No kidding, since a 180-200 grain .30 caliber bullet would drop almost 20 feet from horizontal. Not to mention the effect of wind on the tiny projective over its 3 second flight.

With rifles like the 338 this range can reach into and past the 1 mile range.

Yep it will go that far but without a wire to guide it, won't do much good.

The 50 cal is not a sniper rifle it is an anti material weapon designed to take out vehicles, scud missiles, mobile radar units ect. Not to say that it will not work on a person but a bullet that will go through an engine block at over 1 mile is overkill on a human at almost any range. :shooting:

AP (Armor Piercing) .50 Cal rounds with go through, but not regular ball ammo. The part about the .50 Cal being anti material is hooey and sounds like a gun control lobby.

The current record for military snipers is just over 2,400 meters by a .50 Cal in Afganistan. Before that a .50 Cal at 2200 meters. To effectively go beyond a mile it is .50 (yeah there are some others that are highly modified ei.408 LRRS). Generally, military snipers stay to about 600-800 with the M24 (.308), because with enviromental factors it is a crap shoot past that.

Just a thought
DD

TylerDurden

01-04-2005, 01:49 PM

The part about the .50 Cal being anti material is hooey and sounds like a gun control lobby.

Actually, according to the discovery channel, one of the main selling points of the .50 cal.

round is its potential for cost effective anti-material use. Why use a $700,000 precision

guided missle to destroy a SAM when you can use a single bullet. The .50 round could be

used to disable SAMs, radar, vehicles (Especially the "technicals" which are common in the

middle east and somalia. For those who don't know, the word "technical" refers to the pickup

trucks and cars mounted with machine guns or other armaments), etc. The main problem

with the barret .50 is its weight. It is pretty heavy for a field issue sniper rifle. Thats why

the .50 is being used more as a specialty weapon. They are working on trimming down the

weight, but the .50 AP is certainly a very potent anti-material round.

drg

01-04-2005, 04:45 PM

He's not talking about that kind of zooming in, but about one moment looking at the whole figure of the target and a split second later looking at just his face...with NO movement by the shooter. This usually happens with FIXED power scopes on the big screen. :wow:

Well if it's not a literal zooming of the sight, what's the issue? It's just a stylistic device to highlight the character's point of attention, like any other zoom or pan. Yes it may be overdramatic, but certainly not unrealistic.

The writer did say "scopes are static" which implies that no scopes can zoom, rendering the entire zoom concept impossible. In fact in situations like in most movies, where the sniping is occurring at relatively short range, a variable-power scope has a greater chance of being employed.