Is there REALLY any need for a Super Mech

[PBX Ronin 23]

What I'm about to say may get me stoned to death on this thread. And please, accept my statement that there's no insult intended to anyone associated with any high-end mech projects as a sincere one. But......

Outside of hard-core paintball purists such us those who frequent this forum (myself included), who cares about Mechs nowadays. The market has spoken and they have resoundingly said NAY. Whether you're talking to a high-end tourney baller or some young kid looking to get into the sport, their desires are focused on the electro markers.

Business being business, wouldn't it be easier to negotiate more liveable terms with either SP and WDP than to ramp your production and spend money marketing a product that only a small segment of the playing population can truly appreciate. Does it make sense to produce something that down the road the economies of scale can not be taken advantage of? Does it make good business sense to produce something that has a limited growth potential?

A friend of mine made a pretty interesting qoute regarding this very same matter. Coming out with a high-end Mech, he said, "is tantamount to to the Polish Cavalry charging against the German Panzers in 1939....... gallant but woefully inadequate."

Unless the big boys (NPPL and PSP) decide to come up with an all-mech division in their respective leagues, what's really gonna drive the demand for a super mech. What I comfort myself with is the notion that the industry is still evolving. Much as the pumps have been relagated to an earlier chapter in the history of the game, so at some point the Mechs will find their own chapter.

And this is coming from a guy who has written on his Will that he must be buried with his 1999 Evolution clutched in his right hand. Let the stoning begin......

[Halliday]

Good post. Mechs are good for rentals, occasional players and people just starting out. I doubt there will ever be any "Pro" Mech tournies. The paint moeny and prestige is just not the same. Electros have been hitting rec ball for a while now.

[j.storm]

I like to be able to work on my guns. I'm mechanically stupid, but i'm electronically retarded :rolleyes: I think a super-mech would have a place in senario/req play, definately. tourney's? probably not. A smaller market to be sure, but a market non the less. My $.02

[teufelhunden]

Even an all mech series would be ruined with these "super mechs." Last I checked, people wanted all mech tournies to get away from the high ROFs, not just change the methods..

[j.storm]

Even an all mech series would be ruined with these "super mechs." Last I checked, people wanted all mech tournies to get away from the high ROFs, not just change the methods..

Good point. That's why I'm thinkin' more senario

[PBX Ronin 23]

I think a super-mech would have a place in senario/req play, definately. tourney's? probably not. A smaller market to be sure, but a market non the less. My $.02Ten four that J....... but in business, wouldn't you rather appeal to the majority? Unless of course the minority would shell out money by the cart load. :cheers:

[Conversekidz]

Electronics are good for spitting an obsean amount of paint. I like my mech, i will always like my mech, I have even shot electronic and I still go back to my mech mag with ult.


Just think of this, who is laughing when the batteries die? the guy with a mech gun or the guy with a high end electronic gun?

Oh, and have you ever taken a $1500 electronic gun and put it under water?

[j.storm]

Ten four that J....... but in business, wouldn't you rather appeal to the majority? Unless of course the minority would shell out money by the cart load. :cheers:


Depends really. A slightly antiquated company like AGD, WGP, Tippman kinda have to hit those markets. It you don't mind being a small company, and you pay your bills, then the minority is your gig. But I tend to speak from the heart....

[PBX Ronin 23]

Just think of this, who is laughing when the batteries die? the guy with a mech gun or the guy with a high end electronic gun?

Oh, and have you ever taken a $1500 electronic gun and put it under water?
The water submerging test not withstanding, would you really want to snap shoot at 8bps against someone laning into you at 15bps? Let's talk reality here. Not intending to sound condescending but how often do you really dunk you gun totally under water versus having a shoot-out with somebody who has a significant ROF advantage over you?

[Skoad]

I think most people believe the slower you shoot, the more skill is involved.

Its the whole "I shot you and your timmy with my mech gun" thing.

[j.storm]

well heck, if i'm getting laned with 200 rnds at 15bps+, and I snap shoot one round and hit the guy...... Speed never was a factor for me, but I don't play tourniments either. And let's face it, 8 paintballs PER SECOND, is still a lot of paint. I can't even count that fast ;)

[PBX Ronin 23]

I think most people believe the slower you shoot, the more skill is involved.

Its the whole "I shot you and your timmy with my mech gun" thing.
I know what you mean.

What people really don't mention is that as the game has evolved to where it is now, part of the necessary skill set is to shoot fast and have the ability to avoid getting hit by longer and tightly space strings of fire.

Shoot and avoiding getting hit are still the basic premise of the game. The big difference is that you're now doing to the rythm of Rock-n-roll and not Mozart.

[j.storm]

The big difference is that you're now doing to the rythm of Rock-n-roll and not Mozart.

:rofl: I like it

[RusskiX]

Just think of this, who is laughing when the batteries die? the guy with a mech gun or the guy with a high end electronic gun?

I don't know about you, but neither I, nor any of my friends have "had their battery die" in game. On paper it sounds like a selling point to have mechanical redundancy, but in practice, today's electros don't need it. In fact, its usually the mechanical-pneumatic systems in most electros that cause problems, not the electronics.


Oh, and have you ever taken a $1500 electronic gun and put it under water?

I'll concede that this is a pretty good point. BUT, most airball fields don't include moats. ;)
Again, this sounds good in theory, but most players I know are fair weather ballers that don't play in tropical downpours. And in the few rainy days I've played, both my Eblade and Angel handled the moisture without complaint.

I have to agree with Mel that the market for mechs is shrinking, except for field rentals. I've been playing for 15 years and have watched the evolution. Mechs have their place in history, but today's electros are reliable, easy to use/maintain and more affordable everyday.

[Blennidae]

I hadn't really put much thought into the whole super-mech thing. Sure the hAir video was cool, and the tech aspect behind it is interesting. But I think you are 100% on the money with this. Unless the super-mech could be brought to market for significantly less than an electro, I dont see it really taking off.

Who would the target audience be?

Even if it came out for mags, think about it. Mags aren't the most efficient guns. If you add something that draws more air from the limited supply already, the number of shots drops.

It probably wouldn't sell to cocker guys, as its easier to eblade/race one and eliminate the timing issues.

I don't know much about scenario, but the one game I attended, it looked like there were a lot of the more "realistic" looking guns. I think those guys were more interested in how the gun looked as opposed to how it operated.

I own both E and mech guns. They each have thier place. I don't see the need for something in between.

If some company brings one to market, more power to them. But I don't think I'll be buying one.

[PBX Ronin 23]

I'll concede that this is a pretty good point. BUT, most airball fields don't include moats. ;)LOL. Electros can be designed and made to perform in harsher environments than before. But regardless of that, your post is one of the funier ones I've read that addresses this issue.

[than205]

The water submerging test not withstanding, would you really want to snap shoot at 8bps against someone laning into you at 15bps? Let's talk reality here. Not intending to sound condescending but how often do you really dunk you gun totally under water versus having a shoot-out with somebody who has a significant ROF advantage over you?

I have played in the pouring rain though and had no worries.

For me the point was to stick it to those that came up with the retarded idea that it was appropriate to patent the electro-grip and then go around after the weak in the industry.
I'm not stupid enough to disagree with the idea of patents, but let's be honest it certainly seems to be limiting the innovative posibilities when something so common as the electro-grip gets a blanket patent.
So, I was excited to say:
"Yeah, it's a classic mag. Better yet there's no battery"
Just once to some jerkoff with no skills with a DM4.

[shatter_storm]

I see a need for a super mech - but it's a niche product. Why would anyone buy a carter buzzard? Why would anyone buy a J5? Why would anyone buy a karta/dallara 'mag? Why would anyone buy a "high end" autococker? A phantom would do the same as the buzzard, and a $30 "brute" from ebay probably would too. A trilogy cocker will do the same thing as a J5 or orracle or micro-x. A ule custom will do the same thing as a dallara 'mag. A eblade, e-spyder, or e-mag will do everything the above can do, but faster.

Why do we need expensive, refined, high-precision, high-performance mechanical paintball markers? Because there's a enduring market for nice stuff, even though it is "inferior" by being mechanical. Somebody's gotta sell it.

Mechs will die out. Sooner or later, tippmann will release a well built rental-quality marker that comes with a electronic trigger by default - and then we'll all be hosed. Electros went from being the oddball new thing, to being flakey midlevel items, to being high end paint sprayers, and now they're into the base level market as well. It's an eventual progression - the automotive industry has just finished going through this same process. But even when you can't find a mech marker in wal-mart, somebody will be making one somewhere.

The funny thing is, even if the PSP or NPPL start up an all-mech division, so what? You'd see people on the field with pblades and hAir triggers, out to get every advantage they can. Super gear will always exist as long as people want to buy better stuff - so there'll be junky mechs and super mechs, crap electro sear-trippers and super spool valve monsters.

[Conversekidz]

Let me clarify the battery comment, I didn't mean the battery died in the middle of the game leaving you with a dead marker, I just more was meaning your batter dies over the course of a day playing and leaves you with out a gun for the rest of the day. I've had that happen with my hopper, I forgot to get fresh batteries and it decided to die on me mid day. Crappy part was that it was my only hopper but I was lucky enough to borrow someone elses.

[jon-boy]

I'd like to say I'll never go electro. The reality is, I'm sure I eventually will. The thing is, I won't sink $700-$1500 into an electro. I like the fact that I can buy a used mag for $140, then spend another $150 for a few upgrades and then have a marker that is consistent, reliable, accurate, and fun to shoot. What electro could I buy for under $300 that would be as reliable and accurate? I'll end up spending $200 on an electro that would be my backup/just for fun marker.

I guess I'm in the minority and a dying breed.

[Conversekidz]

[QUOTE=RusskiX]
I'll concede that this is a pretty good point. BUT, most airball fields don't include moats. ;)
QUOTE]
sad part is I have never played airball :( I only play outdoor and indoor....but the outdoor field does have a creek that you have to cross while playing capture the flag, there is 1 bridge to cross on....and people will wade sp? the water to get to the other side to get an advantage.

[RusskiX]

I've had that happen with my hopper, I forgot to get fresh batteries and it decided to die on me mid day.

*cough* user error *cough*

Not trying to criticize, but electros are not inherently not any less reliable that mechs. And battery life in most electros is measured in 1000's of rounds which provides several full days of playing before needing charging/replacement.

[PBX Ronin 23]

What electro could I buy for under $300 that would be as reliable and accurate?2005 will bring you many options.

[Conversekidz]

*cough* user error *cough*

Not trying to criticize, but electros are not inherently not any less reliable that mechs. And battery life in most electros is measured in 1000's of rounds which provides several full days of playing before needing charging/replacement.

*cough* my point exactly *cough* Its sad when a battery will stop you from playing. Thats why I like the e-mag/x-mag's cause you can play either way.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Shatter Storm........your point is well taken.

[Tunaman]

Well in my neck of the woods, business has been steadily growing selling mostly mechanical mags. This has been the case for the last few years. People say they are dying...I dont believe that to be the case at all. The average Joe Paintballer will always want(or have to) start out with a mech. As long as paintball keeps growing, there will always be newbees who want them...and seasoned veterans who know where its at will continue to purchase them. Don't get cold feet on me now Mel! ;) :D

[Chronobreak]

yes there wil always be devides between emch and electros

as for a new marker for the mag or fixing the mag back up.....hmm well we are sitting here waiting for....something from ptp in maybe 6-8 months? :rofl: ok....

we have the ult.....shortstroking is fun and not fast

stock on/off...fine but still nowhere near the speeds of electros albeait a very fast snap shooter

pneu trigger...wow somethign that could pretty much do what an electro does and not ramp..
but like its been said why go pneu when you can g electro.

also waitinf for the "agg-mag" dono how that ones coming along ;) but i believe as mag users this and the hyperframe/devimag conversion is the best we have or to look forward to at this point unles something else new is introduced.

look at agd history ie the e-mag huge batt pack and some kinda clunky interals.

after int eh past some cheap attempts to make a nice make electro ahve failed miserably such as the hyperframe and boo-yahs.

seems something could be made to satisfy all players as long as its a fast well made reliable trgger/gun wether its mech or electro.

--edit for forgeting soemthings..see what happens when you walk away from a long post ;)

[riooso]

I own an X-Mag and would not trade it for anything. I just bought a ULT setup. I play woodsball, straight up! I find myself shooting the mechanical more and more. It has a crisp clean trigger and is as accurate as any marker made. It is with respect and a smile when I double tap someone and have both hit. I think that it is unkind and not in the true spirit of paintball to open up with an electric and when one or two will do. It happens to me but I don't let it bother me because 9 times out of 10 leading by example will bear the fruit of respect and friedship. My eliminations on a typical day number close to 70 on about a half a case of the best paint made. I hear Angel this or Nerve that is on the other team and what a challenge it is going to be to win, my question to the kids that utter the words is "But can they play paintball?". I love the ULT setup! :clap:

Riooso

[White_Noise]

ok, seeing as im one of those people who will never get rid of their mech, but still like their electros, i figure i should put my $.02 in.

*electronics and water: 2 words for that....Mardi Gras. splashes, rain, etc arent usually problems, but when the field becomes a bowl of soup, just watch how many electros get shorted out.

*market: is there a large market for a super mech? not right now. could there be? maybe. im fairly mechanically inclined and id wager a bet that in the long run, super mechs could be made faster, shooting legally, than electronics.

*efficiency of mags: ok seriously, everyone needs to just stop complaining about the efficiency of mags, especially tourney players. in tournaments, you get refilled between games anyway so no worrys about running out. also, i can get atleast 3 pods and full halo out of my mags and still have about 1500psi, and thats with them running at 1200psi, i get more when i drop to about 800. even in say 10 man, back players just need to use a 88/4500 and they can have enough paint. if you need more paint than that on the field, then your team needs to learn how to move and make things happen.

*rof: i support an industry wide cap on the rof of electros anyway, and since mechs cant be governed, this would lead more people to the super mech because of this possible loop hole.

again, thats my $.02

[SpecialBlend2786]

*rof: i support an industry wide cap on the rof of electros anyway, and since mechs cant be governed, this would lead more people to the super mech because of this possible loop hole.

again, thats my $.02

i can see that happening maybe

[MindJob]

Well in my neck of the woods, business has been steadily growing selling mostly mechanical mags. This has been the case for the last few years. People say they are dying...I dont believe that to be the case at all. The average Joe Paintballer will always want(or have to) start out with a mech. As long as paintball keeps growing, there will always be newbees who want them...and seasoned veterans who know where its at will continue to purchase them. Don't get cold feet on me now Mel! ;) :D


Yeah, but what Newb wll spend $400-500 on a RT Mag that can only run on nitro, when they can spend $200 on an inferior E-Spyder and run it on co2, saving the aditional cost of a Nitro tank.

Then that same Newbie a year later after seeing everyone else's Timmies, DM4s and Shockers puts the E-spyder on ebay and decides to upgrade.

Not to a high end mech, even though some do. The majority dont.

While the Mag is definately NOT a dead as some on PBN would like to think.......
AGD is going against market trends by focusing on mechs. BUT, its either do that, or get sued. So everyone has to hold their breath and see what becomes of all of the legal messes.

Oh, and BTW,
Has anyone noticed the attention that the "Do-it-youself" electro conversions get? I know it would be trouble for anyone who made a bolt on e-frame for the mag, but maybe the solution is to produce a DIY kit.

[j.storm]

I think, to a degree, that spyders and all of it's clones are the "first stage" guns. Most people I know start out with something of that caliber. These are those very same Joe Paintballer's and they usually don't go very indepth into the upgrades available to make those low end markers top notch quality. They just throw on the usual basics....expansion chamber, barrel, bolt.....and then they don't really get much deeper. Then, 'ol Joe PB looks for something better....either a mag or cocker is what I find around here.....and then they kinda start the process over. Going electronic for those folks is one of those "i'd love too, but I have bills to pay...maybe someday" type things. So Mags are a "second stage" marker in my experiance. ....talking mostly rec ball/woodsball here......

[LudavicoSoldier]

I think it really depends WHERE you are playing paintball. If you are in an area away from big fields, I would say the likelyhood of selling a mech gun would be better. If you dont have to live up to the tourny guys at the field, then why would you need/want a gun that sprays an obscene amount of paint? The niche markets need to be supported. Everyone does not want the latest/greatest/flashiest gun on the market. Some people like the unique/strange markers. I know I do. I'd take a IMPd PMI1 to the field just to get the "wtf is that!?". I dont want to be the same as everyone else, though that is what paintball as a whole seems to want me to be.

[XbeasleyX]

It is really starting to aggrivate me how everyone thinks that just because a marker is a nice electro that it ramps. :mad: :mad: I used an Icon Z for the first two years of play, then I started looking for a higher level gun I considered an RT Mag ~ $500 or a 04' B2K for about the same price. I chose the B2K because it was the kind of gun I picture myself with in a competitive setting werein 95% of people where shooting well over 10bps and I'll admit it I bought the Electro because I wanted to shoot faster. But back to my original point NOT ALL ELECTROS ARE CHEATER GUNS. /end rant.

[shartley]

Yeah, but what Newb wll spend $400-500 on a RT Mag that can only run on nitro, when they can spend $200 on an inferior E-Spyder and run it on co2, saving the aditional cost of a Nitro tank.

Then that same Newbie a year later after seeing everyone else's Timmies, DM4s and Shockers puts the E-spyder on ebay and decides to upgrade.

Not to a high end mech, even though some do. The majority dont.

While the Mag is definately NOT a dead as some on PBN would like to think.......
AGD is going against market trends by focusing on mechs. BUT, its either do that, or get sued. So everyone has to hold their breath and see what becomes of all of the legal messes.

Oh, and BTW,
Has anyone noticed the attention that the "Do-it-youself" electro conversions get? I know it would be trouble for anyone who made a bolt on e-frame for the mag, but maybe the solution is to produce a DIY kit.
You are correct on some things but misinformed on others.

You are VERY correct on the high priced Mec VS lower cost Electro and the HPA/C02 issue with Mags. And while Tunaman may see sales in his neck of the woods, I can say with certainty that his neck of the woods is not indicative of the forest at large.

As for “inferior” E-Spyders….. do they shoot fast? Do they shoot paintballs the same as any other marker? So some could successfully argue that cheaper in paintball does not always equal “inferior”.

Now about AGD….. they are not going against the market trends. They could not compete in one area so they are switching focus to an area that they already have a fantastic marker for. And the reason they have removed the E-series from their lineup is NOT because of SP. How many times does this have to be pointed out to folks here on AO? Tom himself even said that. SP has in NO way made any move on AGD. And AGD is still selling the remaining e-markers they have in stock.

Heck, the fact that they HAVE the E-Mags still available for sale so long after they announced they were not making them any more shows how “good” they sell….. You would think with all the complaining about them stopping the production that they would have sold out almost immediately after the announcement. But that didn’t happen. I wonder how many Angels have sold in that same amount of time.

There are many valid reasons AGD has moved its emphasis from tournament play and e-series markers to rec/scenario play and manual markers…. and none of them have anything to do with SP. SP is a handy thing to blame, but the “possible threat” is not the same thing as BEING a threat. AGD would have had to make this move SP or no SP.

And a DIY Kit that violates the SP patent (or any patent) is the same thing as a fully produced marker violating the patent. This has also been pointed out many times here on AO.

On another note… I keep reading on AO that manual markers are dead. LOL This could hot be farther from the truth. In fact, there has been a resurgence of manual markers, and even pump markers. And with that said, I think a Pneu frame would be a viable product IF it could be produced within a reasonable price range.

[Vanced]

Well in my neck of the woods, business has been steadily growing selling mostly mechanical mags. This has been the case for the last few years. People say they are dying...I dont believe that to be the case at all. The average Joe Paintballer will always want(or have to) start out with a mech. As long as paintball keeps growing, there will always be newbees who want them...and seasoned veterans who know where its at will continue to purchase them. Don't get cold feet on me now Mel! ;) :D

I agree with Tuna,

I don't know if there is a place for the "super mech" out there... ( Unless the Loop hole for capped electro's open up) ... except for a small group of hard core guys...

But there is a place for the Mag. All I know is what I see in my group of friends. We are all in our mid twenties, have carrers, families, etc. that we can't & don't want to be feild junkies, constantly tweeking tuning and upgrading, and constantly spending just to keep the gun functional and up to date... (note: or we are just a bunch of red necks who want another excuse to wear cammo and go shoot each other when hunting season is out)

But bottom line is when we want and more often get the rare chance to play.. we want NO downtime...

We only play once a month or so during the season, and are playing more and more scenerio as the local rec ball fields close up and are replaced with speedball type fields... which we still play sometimes but can't play just speedball...and don't want too... there were only 2 hard core Mag guys in our group of about a dozen. Myself and one other with the rest using Spyders, Some Elec. some not, Tippmans, 1 cocker, or rentals.

But in the last few years Tuna is right... I've added 3 more mags to that group, and I know of at least 1 more that plans to have one by the end of the season. Because they like where the mag is going and are learning to appciate what it offers...

I think we all agree the Mag isn't going to own all the fields and have commericals on during Sportscenter... but it does continue to survive, by doing what it has always done... and doing it better than anyone else...

We are not the biggest market group, but we are a group that is growing... and I am happy to say I have been here all along.

[SpitFire1299]

Ive read all the above posts... and its rare for me to post my opinion but...

I think that paintball guns are not all about speed and how fast they can shoot. Would you rather have a gun that can shoot 10bps accuratley? or 20bps very innacuratley? (talking more about low end markers) and also.. ive seen automags and tippmanns go through hell and still be alive, ive seen electronic markers go directly to hell.

Pretty much its all about how you like your gun. Some people are better with a mech than an electronic, i dont know. The automag could be considered a super mech because its trigger pull is so light, and it keeps up and stays in its spot with a lot of high end markers.

AGD ALL THE WAY

[jon-boy]

Whole Post.

Hear Hear! :cheers:

My second marker ever was a minimag. Had to sell it before I joined the Army, but once again, I'm back to my first love. And I'm not even going after the x-valve, ule, ult. (yet ;) ) I've got a classic with a few upgrades. And I talk mags up with everyone I come across who's into PB.

[teufelhunden]

ok, seeing as im one of those people who will never get rid of their mech, but still like their electros, i figure i should put my $.02 in.

*electronics and water: 2 words for that....Mardi Gras. splashes, rain, etc arent usually problems, but when the field becomes a bowl of soup, just watch how many electros get shorted out.

*market: is there a large market for a super mech? not right now. could there be? maybe. im fairly mechanically inclined and id wager a bet that in the long run, super mechs could be made faster, shooting legally, than electronics.

*efficiency of mags: ok seriously, everyone needs to just stop complaining about the efficiency of mags, especially tourney players. in tournaments, you get refilled between games anyway so no worrys about running out. also, i can get atleast 3 pods and full halo out of my mags and still have about 1500psi, and thats with them running at 1200psi, i get more when i drop to about 800. even in say 10 man, back players just need to use a 88/4500 and they can have enough paint. if you need more paint than that on the field, then your team needs to learn how to move and make things happen.

*rof: i support an industry wide cap on the rof of electros anyway, and since mechs cant be governed, this would lead more people to the super mech because of this possible loop hole.

again, thats my $.02

How many guns failed at Mardi Gras? If I'm correct, not many. There's a reason why you screw on the grips real tight, ya know ;) Also, I believe many boards come with a water resistant coating.. that, or I'm losing my mind. My bet is for the latter.

Any two guns, side by side, both set up legally and to a user's preferences, will shoot at the same ROF. It's just a question of actually setting them up truly to the letter of the law.

The efficiency issue, as I've said before, is not about getting more shots out of your gun in a game. It's about being able to carry a smaller tank and still shoot as much paint as you need to, at least in tourney ball. In scenario games, depending on how you play, it certainly is about not being in the middle of a mission or something and then seeing 600 PSI.

You're right, there's no way to "cap" mechs, that I know of at least, although I'm sure Jay knows how to do it, since he's built ramping mechs before. But that doesn't mean they won't be exempted from the rules. It'll be up to the user to keep the ROF legal, the same way it's up to the user to keep a car under the speed limit.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Oh, and BTW,
Has anyone noticed the attention that the "Do-it-youself" electro conversions get? I know it would be trouble for anyone who made a bolt on e-frame for the mag, but maybe the solution is to produce a DIY kit.That really won't get around the patent issue. It will still be an ingringement.


On another note… I keep reading on AO that manual markers are dead. LOL This could hot be farther from the truth. In fact, there has been a resurgence of manual markers, and even pump markers. And with that said, I think a Pneu frame would be a viable product IF it could be produced within a reasonable price range.Sam, the problem is if your product demand isn't strong enough to take advantage of economies of scale, then either keep your margins low or sell at an obscene amount. True there may still be a demand for niche products but as a businessperson, would you really rather cater to that market or the larger segment?

Tuna, you're the dude that people sought after so I wouldn't be surprised if you're seeing a lion's share of that niche market.

[hitech]

And the reason they have removed the E-series from their lineup is NOT because of SP.

That is NOT true. When I suggested improvements to Tom for the eMag he told me that he wasn't going to do anything BECAUSE of the SP lawsuits. :(

[MindJob]

As for “inferior” E-Spyders….. do they shoot fast? Do they shoot paintballs the same as any other marker? So some could successfully argue that cheaper in paintball does not always equal “inferior”.

By inferior I was refering to craftsmanship and engineering... I never said "Spyders suck" or anything like that, but just stating the obvious. Although Kingman has come LIGHTYEARS from where they were a few years ago, there are still few markers or manufacturers who arwe in the same catagory ad AGD.


Now about AGD….. they are not going against the market trends. They could not compete in one area so they are switching focus to an area that they already have a fantastic marker for. And the reason they have removed the E-series from their lineup is NOT because of SP. How many times does this have to be pointed out to folks here on AO? Tom himself even said that. SP has in NO way made any move on AGD. And AGD is still selling the remaining e-markers they have in stock.

It was my understanding that the e-mags were a retired design. I also undertand that no new AGD electro would be out anytime soon. And YES, AGD took themselves out of the E-marker market for fear of a lawsuit. No, SP didnt make a move on AGD, but a small company like that was ripe for the pickings. Just look are ICD and AKA. Why didnt SP go right after National or WDP? They aer bigger and have more money to pay lawers with, and SP plans for world domination would have collapsed in their infancy with an early loss in court.

That is not the only reason, but I'm sure a major factor for the end of the AGD electro. Im also certain that the profit margin for an E-mag was RAZOR thin, and that they can easily make much more by selling mechs. What is an e-mag? An RT with about $400 worth of electronics on it. Plus. by retiring the line, meant no further money was spent on development. (example: 4.0 software that everyone is crying for)

Im also sure that without a new flagship electro, they were well aware that they could not compete with the newer more 'advanced' (take that however you guys want) markers. AGD is a small company, and by no means could dump the amount of sponsorship cash that would be needed to change the market trends. (Yes, TRENDS) In the past. AGD created many of the trends. They were the innovators.. and paintball today is still influenced by them.

As far as selling off the remaining e-mags,... how many people outside of our little AO community even know they are still available? Joe Public looks to places like 888paintball to buy gear. If by some chance some of these places still have e-mags left, more than likely they arent even Level 10, let alone ULE. And we all know how those old style stainless bodies and twist lock barrels are reguarded these days.

When people at the field see my X-mag, the usual response is WOW. It only makes me wonder what exactly would it take to make the E-mag more marketable. It may be as simple as adding a ULT on/off, making it run off of 9 volts, and putting some bad-arse ramping board in. Then again, what the hell do I know?

I just like that fact the everyone is so passionate about this subject that we all take the time to put or 2 cents in. But just keep in mind that sales in the paintball industry are supposedly way down (this is what is being said, I have no statistics to back that up) In any weak industry, only the strong survive. Right now, AGD doesnt look to strong. Being a loyal customer of thiers for years, I can only hope that this changes and do my part by buying their products and spreading the good word.

[Magaman]

Since almost all other manufacturers have gone Electro, Mag people seem to be at least 80% of the we like mechanical group... I personally want both, a Super Mech for Scenario and the occasional lighting up of a , "Yuck dude thats a mag" and an electro mag. I don't realy see whats wrong with the X-mags and the E-mags other than AGD had to stop production of them.

If the New, On the Shelf Mags, were electronic like everyone else and the boards were up to snuff supposedly like everyone else, you would see less of people wishing they had a Super-Mech... You guys have to admit, if AGD wasn't pushed back from pursuing electro-Mags in what ever way they wanted to, things would be allot different...

So since the majority of mag owners are either stuck financially with a mech mag or they just plain and simple like the mech mags they own, that is the reason for all of the "We want Super-Mechs on the AO boards..."

[Dayspring]

According to what lots of people have said, as well as Tom himself, scenario & rec players outnumber tourneyballers. So marketing a viable alternative to the electrowould be good business sense no?


Ten four that J....... but in business, wouldn't you rather appeal to the majority? Unless of course the minority would shell out money by the cart load. :cheers:

[Magaman]

According to what lots of people have said, as well as Tom himself, scenario & rec players outnumber tourneyballers. So marketing a viable alternative to the electrowould be good business sense no?

Yes, but what percentage of Scenario players really buy the new Markers... I bet that more than half of them, (Me Included) Have a crapload of paintball guns sitting around and don't care what they use for Scenario as long as it is reliable, shoots fast when they want it to and accurate.

I know tons of guys that have the same Marker they bought 7 years ago. Thats the gun they use for Scenario and Rec play and they also have the same stinky old Camo for clothing. The same guys have a bunch of money invested in Tourney Ball and spend most of there money on new gear each time something comes out...

From what I've seen, the majority of Scenario/Rec players either have stuff they reuse and don't plan to buy new or they craft what they can from parts lying around. So I don't necessarily think that just because they Scenario/Rec players out number tourneyballers, the market should mainly focus there efforts on mechanical and scenario/rec . The customers are always right and the manufacturers know this, which is why they are all focusing their attention on electronics, bright colors, and Tourney Ball... It’s where the customers spending money want to spend it the most...

Remember, I’m a scenario guy first which is why I choose to use a mag. This is just what I see...

[Eric Cartman]

Outside of hard-core paintball purists such us those who frequent this forum (myself included), who cares about Mechs nowadays. The market has spoken and they have resoundingly said NAY. Whether you're talking to a high-end tourney baller or some young kid looking to get into the sport, their desires are focused on the electro markers.

Of course they're focused on the electros and they love the faster lighter electronic triggers. Legally set up mech guns are slower. The thing that's being overlooked is that there are currently no "super mechs" available. Sure a few people have built their own, but nothing is widely available. If a cost effective mech is made available that can compete with the electros, who's to say what the market will say?
I'm sure most of us have seen pics of flying "cars" http://www.moller.com/skycar/ , but you don't see them cruising along on your way to work. Does this mean that the market has spoken against flying cars? No. It means that flying cars aren't widely available and the few that exist are extremely expensive and probably fairly complicated to operate, but what if a flying car is made that isn't too complicated to make or too expensive? Who's to say whether or not they would take off (horrible pun intended :p )?

Yeah, I know it's a weird example.

[RRfireblade]

OK, my 2 cents....sure you know that would be coming. ;)

First off I agree that Electros will never be replaced as the premier style of marker. And I typically play with an Electro most of the time.

But....a few points about differences:


Speed:


The water submerging test not withstanding, would you really want to snap shoot at 8bps against someone laning into you at 15bps? Let's talk reality here.

You seem to assume that the Mech is slower than the Electro. I'm not really sure why you think that having not shot one but in the side by side comparisons that we've done so far,the general consensus is that 'Our' Mech is faster overall and easier to shot faster than the compared,legally setup electro. ( Timmy was one,Karnivore the other in the last series of tests)

Cost:

I fully expect the 'super' mech,assuming we're talking about the Pnuematic Triggered Mech,to be priced under the cost of most High end electros that it can and will compete with.

Servicability:

In the vast majority of cases, the "super" mech can be serviced to the point of a complete rebuild by the owner,on field and between games if need be.And you won't need a box of electronic parts,a multimeter,soldering statrion,anti-static environment etc, to do it. I'm not saying electros break down alot but the do as much as any other gun,which would you rather trouble shoot at the field?

Flexability

Just throw this in here,in some cases (Mag,Cocker) upgrading to a "super" mech frame will be easier,require less modifications,and cheaper than going Electro.

But there are definately arguements for both styles and there is definately a market for both as well.

Variety IS the spice of life...right next to paprika. :D

Jay.

[shartley]

That is NOT true. When I suggested improvements to Tom for the eMag he told me that he wasn't going to do anything BECAUSE of the SP lawsuits. :(
And to say that in itself was the reason is handy, but FALSE… even according to Tom himself. Tom knows that folks will eat up what they want to hear. He also knows that even though he listed MANY valid reasons for AGD to not go ahead with the E-Mag, folks will only hear the SP issue/excuse and assign that as the ONLY or biggest reason for AGD not making them any more.

And sorry to tell you, just because Tom says SP and their lawsuits is one of the reasons does not make it THE reason, nor a valid reason. I can claim to not play in my back yard because I might get attacked by a bear, but that does not make it a valid reason for me not to if I have never even seen a bear in my back yard. It does not matter if across town someone DID see a bear in their back yard, it still did not mean one would be in MY back yard. It may be a valid reason for ME, but then I can’t blame the bears for my decision even more so if I have never seen one in my back yard.

SP was that bear for AGD.

Tom openly stated that SP had never contacted AGD about their markers. And you (or Tom, or anyone) can’t now claim that they “might” have contacted them in the future, since AGD CHOSE to stop production of their e-series on their own, because of MANY issues. Do you honestly think that if the AGD E-series markers were selling off the shelves and the money was rolling in that AGD would simply STOP making and selling them? LOL Be real.

SP is a good excuse to pass the blame for AGD’s decisions, but not THE reason in itself, nor even close. No matter what Tom wants some to now believe. He already made the “mistake” of outlining all the OTHER valid reasons for AGD stopping production of the e-series openly here on AO. And he also openly stated that SP has never even attempted to stop him in any way. Thus, the decision was NOT forced by SP, nor even caused by them. But instead SP is simply a convenient scapegoat for their decisions and mistakes over the years.

It all comes down to what folks want to believe. But this was a CHOICE that AGD made, and would have been made anyways… unless their e-series was cost effective and selling off the shelves. Neither of which happened/is happening. AGD chose to think they may at some point be in SP’s crosshairs and chose to not pursue a new e-series marker because of it. They folded before even seeing the hand….

How many other electro-markers are on the market? Did SP stop ALL e-series markers from being produced? Why hasn’t every company who makes an e-series marker simply stop making them? None of the “threat” comments and potential threat excuses hold up when folks look at the actual market. You can’t walk into any paintball shop without seeing a wide range of e-series products made by many different companies.

And that does not even take into account that even if AGD WAS targeted by SP that they could have entered into a licensing agreement with them. That too would have been a CHOICE for AGD. We all choose what we do in life and in business, and no matter what forces we face it is ultimately our decision. But again, in the case of AGD and “hero worship” it is easier to pass all blame and responsibility to parties we don’t “like”, ignoring all other factors and the fact that AGD could have probably prevented most of this by at least running the race while it was being run… instead of not even suiting up for it while others were well into it.

Again, I wish them the best, but I refuse to ignore the real reasons they are in the position they are in now. And ignoring these reasons will only cause them to fall further behind. Learn from the mistakes, don’t try to pass the blame…..

[shartley]

Sam, the problem is if your product demand isn't strong enough to take advantage of economies of scale, then either keep your margins low or sell at an obscene amount. True there may still be a demand for niche products but as a businessperson, would you really rather cater to that market or the larger segment?

Tuna, you're the dude that people sought after so I wouldn't be surprised if you're seeing a lion's share of that niche market.
This is very true. Which is why if PTP does not make this for Mags, I hope they can come to an agreement with smaller companies who may be able to fill this need…. BUT PTP should not be expected to simply give away the rights to the product.

As for catering to small or larger markets…. Well, I try to do both. I understand that most businesses however tend to focus on one or the other. Most of the time it comes down to capital and what they can afford… as well as if they have any other way to support the business as a whole. Over the coming years I plan to try and use products which I can make for the larger market to help support limited number/or niche products. That is the key to diversification, it allows you flexibility that “specialization” does not. And it is why so often we see companies which become too specialized falter and fail when that market waivers.

The true key is finding the middle ground....

[SlartyBartFast]

I'll concede that this is a pretty good point. BUT, most airball fields don't include moats. ;)

Seen the pictures from Muddigras? :rofl:

[AGDlover]

Honnestly I wouldrather see a "super mech" like the hair over electros because I'm getting more and more agravated about cheaterboards on DM4's, Timmy's and other high end electros. If we had more of the Super mechs then we would be sure that there wouldnt be a ramping system involved(but ofcorse some PBN member will figure out how to increase preasure to increase speed on the trigger). SO I say yes there is a need. Just the other week i saw a 12yo kid with an 03shocker walk into the local Field(Country Club Paintball) With a full ramping board on its lowest setting at 20bps!! I was pissin me off!!! I got no problem with electros w/o ramping and other cheating board options just the people that pay more money on there board then anything else. So i say outlaw all cheater boards in all turnys check the guns before the day of play!!

[PBX Ronin 23]

I would pay the $850 for a Carter Comp.......but what percentage of the market thinks like me? Business is business. You have to allocate your resources to where you think you can maximize your profits.

[Lohman446]

I see two scenarios for a super mech. I see lack of eyes being a major drawback to selling them.

One - the loophole others have pointed out. If you are capping all electros and not mechs than mechs may be used for a ROF advantage (wouldn't that be odd).

Two - scenarios. However, I see a durability issue here, my mags have already gotten finicky, adding another thing to them worries me.

You have problems in both though, durability for scenarios, and eyes for tournaments. Eyes are what really pushed the ROF - noone would be firing at 20BPS if it was constant break city I'm wrong here actually quite often you see teams blend paint but you get my point.

[pito189]

I like to be able to work on my guns. I'm mechanically stupid, but i'm electronically retarded :rolleyes: I think a super-mech would have a place in senario/req play, definately. tourney's? probably not. A smaller market to be sure, but a market non the less. My $.02

Scenario/Rec play is a much larger market then tournament paintball is. Why would you not cater to the larger market and not even worry about the tournament scene. AGD tried once to keep up with tournament paintball with the X-Mag and you see how that worked out.

I think a super mech is a feasible way to go, considering the companies reputation for quality and a durable product.

[xXHavokXx]

I think only one person has mentioned why electros will always sell more than "super mechs"

Eyes.

Eyes have been the driving force for the new wave of guns, ramping, 20+ bps and DerDer videos. If you can shoot fast without chopping you will win. Alternately there is no point to shooting 20 bps if you're going to blend every ball.

Super mechs will have innovative systems like LX, ACS and Jam but all of those require a missed cycle should a ball not be in the breech perfectly. I would rather my gun just not shoot then dryfire or chuff. While some jam bolt is resetting I'm getting a buffered shot and the next pull, giving me the advantage.

While I wish for a HAIR triggered mag and am dying to make one I would still find it outgunned and outclassed (ROF wise in this case) by my two Flys.

[GT]

Ill make this short since everyone else made theres so dam long :headbang:

I think Tuna and the other dealers have seen an increase in sales because they are the few that still sell mags. PBgear doesnt even sell mags anymore, that is a huge red flag to me.

Lets be honest this isnt Elec v Mechs its Legal Semi v. Ramp. That's the issue. IF you want to shoot an e fast, just jump into your user settings right before a game, and then bounce your opponents into the dead box.


I would be suprised if anyone can snap shoot faster than 15bps. It also wouldnt suprise me if a ULT'ed mag could snap at around 12bps. So you are telling me that an e gun gets a whole 3 bps more? Personally the only difference bewteen elec and mech is that I can usually pull atleast one guy off the break (3v3 or 5v5).

There are two reasons someone wouldnt buy a mech gun:
1. They are playing at a very compatitve level and need the cheater modes.
2. Or think that they are so good that only X gun will get them to the next level.
3. E guns are cheaper and "better" than mech guns.

I think 99% of E owners fall into #2 and #3.

[MindJob]

Lets be honest this isnt Elec v Mechs its Legal Semi v. Ramp. That's the issue.

Corectamundo




There are two reasons someone wouldnt buy a mech gun:
1. They are playing at a very compatitve level and need the cheater modes.
2. Or think that they are so good that only X gun will get them to the next level.
3. E guns are cheaper and "better" than mech guns.

I think 99% of E owners fall into #2 and #3.


I love me Xmag, but I still play better with my RT and mech cocker. (I play even better with my Sniper II pump - nothing better than one shot - one kill)

[GT]

I still play better with my RT and mech cocker.


My two best killing machines:
Classic mag
revenge

should have never sold either.

[mag88888]

im not flaming you but, atleast im not trying to............ do you want AGD to become sell outs and make 50 guns a month, (crappy electros)? i sure like AGD how it is, we dont need to become Kingman. all of AGD's guns have been worth while and are still in the game, like the original utmag classic valve. id be fne using that but i wouldnt like to use a 80 buck piece of poop kingman electro. and ive alwasys prefered mechs. i like to keep it simple. as someone on page 1 said " i am mechanically stupid but electronically retarded." i just like the reliability and perfermoance of my rt ule custom. but other prefer other things. i would hate to see AGD start makin crappy sellout electros that as most electros do, get "old." the 68 classic mag is still a good gun. well thats what i ahve to say.

[$bobo$]

Ok, I have to admit that I didn't read the last 4posts above me, but I still have a comment on this.

The common tourny players look for what is well known as a good, fast, tourny marker. The reason non of them look torwards mags is because mags have a reputation as a recball/newbie ball gun. If people started seeing mags on the airball fields and in tournies, and saw how well they worked, I have no doubt sales would sky rocket. Also, who says mags are slower then electro guns? Last time I check, the only gun that is PROVEN to be faster then a e/xMag is a viking. If properly setup a emag or xmag will have a nicer, faster, feel to it as well. On the bps cap subject... They are going to start selling boards for guns that will be legal for psp... Tadao has already done so. They actually do cap a car's mph. It is easily removed, just like a board could be, but if you do remove it and try to use it in the tourny it is outlawed in then there will be consequences.

[RusskiX]

Scenario/Rec play is a much larger market then tournament paintball is. Why would you not cater to the larger market and not even worry about the tournament scene. AGD tried once to keep up with tournament paintball with the X-Mag and you see how that worked out.

To everyone who has been highlighting tourney v. recball; this is a rather disingenuous argument. Electros may have originally catered to the tourney scene to give the ROF advantage, but nowadays everyone at my woodsball field are sporting e-markers.

This brings us back to Mel's original point that the peanut gallery HAS spoken. Electros are now catering to the larger market, i.e. everyone who likes a speed advantage and can afford one.

Super mechs will live or die by depending on whether they can compete with the relatively reliable performance (aka eyes and maintenance) and constantly dropping prices seen with electros. If they can do that, they can take some of the market segment away.

[lord1234]

mel, one thing you need to take into account is that the MAJORITY of the market is the scenario/rec player. I think MAYBE 3 percent of rec players are also tourney players. And less then half a percent is actually pure "tourney" players. If you could make a super mech that was affordable to the scenario/rec player(on par with the tippman or even the RT mag current price) a "super mech" would first make a return in rec/scenario and slowly move back into tourney play. Also if you can show a tourney player a gun where he doesn't have to worry about mud/rain/whatever screwing it up, they will stand up and listen. I think in the last year there have been 3 tourneys that took place in muddy or wet conditions and I know more than one player who was worried about their electronics.

just my 2c, however much they matter

--Lord1234

[WARPED1]

Simple answer to the thread title: no.

[PBX Ronin 23]

No offense Spydarm but I believe Russkix has eloquently answered your point of contention.

Furthermore, I would really like to know exactly where you found your numbers you're using to establish your conclusions. I would really like to know so that I can either further support or challenge any of my own future analysis regarding the industry in general.

Best regards.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

This is somewhat like the preclude to the French Revolution. 98% of France's pop. had no say in government, while the other 2% had all the power. It seems like the tournament scene, although small, greatly influences the market. Sure, the majority of paintballers play rec/scenario ball, but most of them stick with the same gun. They usually dont come to places like AO or PBN.

I think a Super Mech. has its place, as long as it can find it. It is clear that both Super Mech. and electro have their pros and cons. You have to worry about batteries with one, and reliable parts with the other. What does electro truely offer over Super mech.? Besides cheat modes and ACE, not much. But we are coming to the point where ACE alternatives are surfacing. As long as the Super Mech. can be well adjusted, reliable, fast, and well marketed, it will have it's place in paintball. It will not take over the electro market, but it may have some impact on it.

[Rift]

I see two scenarios for a super mech. I see lack of eyes being a major drawback to selling them.

Who sais that a mechanical gun cant have eyes?

[Kallahan]

Because eyes require electricity, though I'm sure there is a mechanical way to stop the marker from firing if a ball is not in place, but it would be a pain in the arse to deal with.

So far, the only advantage mechs have over electros seem to be their submersability, something that is pretty useless if you ask me. Sure in a monsoon I would take a mech over an electro, any other day of the week? elctro, hands down. Speed, and eyes trump submersability, plus you get all the useless my **** is bigger than your **** features like a ROF indicator!

[spantol]

Of course there's no need for a Super Mech; it's introduction certainly won't be an inflection point in the industry, but there's definitely a niche market there, waiting to be exploited. Positioned properly, there's money to be made.

At last year's IAO, I had the opportunity to fire the hAir, and it was a definitely a wallet-opening experience. Judging from the looks on the faces of the countless others who did the same, I'd say my experience was far from unique.

[digitalqwest]

I know this isnt a debate about Mech vs. Electro. but seemed to turn that way

We are Americans. I think 90% of us want what is new what is the latest and greatest.
For one to choose electro over mech isnt based solely on if you can submerge it in water and will it work or not.
Marketing is a huuuge factor in this. Sponsorship is a marketing scheme. Take Dynasty for example. SP sponsors them throw their top of the line (most expensive, happens to be an electro) gun in their hands and you got a crowd of people who want to be as good as them so they will get the gun they have.
Flip through a APG Magazine. All those colorful guns, oh is that a pro i see, Its a Electro!! I want it!!

I dont recall flipping though a magazine and seeing a AGD/MAG marketing ad, now i am not bashing mags I love em and always will. but again we want, and especially the younger generations want unique, colorful and flashy markers ones that make your friends jealous.

Now, karta, dallara chords, super mech,ULE body, hAir trigger these aftermarket upgrades will keep mags around for quite a while.

Produce a Super Mech stick it in a half naked chicks hands and ill buy one! :wow:

cant think of anything else

[Beemer]

Produce a Super Mech stick it in a half naked chicks hands and ill buy one! :wow:

Poster comes with the Mag :bounce:

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=86&stc=1

[poonjar]

to be honest the main reason i would be interested in a super mech gun is because I dont know anyone in my area who would get it.

every one i know shoots a matrix a timmy or an angel which is why i went the mag rout. I get the fun of setting up a gun and it will be just as fast as anything else when im done.

Not only do i have the only mag (probably in my entire state) but it would be cool to have the only mech gun on the field too.

Its kind of a catch 22 because i want whoever makes a supermech to do well financially but i still want to be different. If there isnt a big enough demand for it it wont be released but if every one has one id rather find something else thats unique.

I hope mag owners understand why i like to be unique.

[Conversekidz]

The sad part is I take my mag out to the field and people are like "What type of gun is that?" cause everyone and their mother shoots some form of an e-gun.

[White_Noise]

to all of those questioning mech antichop capabilities:

i run both an RT, and the SFL Emag. have I ever chopped a ball NO . have i ever turned my eye on in my SFL? NO. same goes for all the markers ive had with lvl10. out of the 4 diffferent valves that ive owned with level10, i have only chopped 1 ball with any of them. now this comes from me playing every 2 weeks, and sometimes every week. shooting about a case each week, more if its a tournament.

i find that completely astonishing considering that some of you say that mechs cant compete cause they'll end up chopping. guess what, the worst marker i ever had for chopping is my ecocker. eye is perfect on that thing, and i use a halo. somehow ive gotten chops about everytime i play with it. even my mech cocker had less chops.

so before you all start putting it off like mechs chop, look around and see whats actually out there to help against this(jambolt/lvl10). can a mech stop before it fires cause there's no ball in the breech? no. does it have to? no.

[/end rant]

BTW: for those interested, i have never personally tuned any lvl10 to use any spring besides the shortest, and still dont get chops.

[Lohman446]

Fine, maybe with enough tinkering you can get LX to work 100%, I have never personally seen (in person) or set a LX to work as well as eyes, do they avoid some chops sure, do they avoid 100% - no. I had a distinct issue with LX "pushing" a ball a short distance down the barrel, and then blowing the next ball through it as a normal occurence - chop, not by strict definition, does it make a difference - no.

Mechanical guns cannot have eyes as we understand them now. Eyes are an electronic system.

Here is the problem with a super mech that I see. Lets say it costs $700 - thats a little more than the price I can buy a Shocker for.

I see all sorts of tuning problems here, I mean I already have had to fiddle with LX, ULT, and the X-valve in general. To me it hurt the mag, it made it maintenance intensive. Not everyone has had this problem I understand, but others besides me have. This, more than performance, more than any chopping issue, is what turned me off.

You might get to the point of competeting with electros, I doubt you suprass them.\

You all seem to think the lack of ability to cheat with the marker (like people couldn't find a way) is a selling point. Whether I turn rebound on or not I like to have it as do many others with similar features. The lack of ability to cheat is not a selling point to most.

You still don't have eyes (yeh.. its important.. the conversation goes like this)

Bystander: Does it have eyes?
Mag user: No... it has level ten, AGD's mechanical anti-chop system thats better than eyes and super effective.
Bystand: Oh... Im buying a Timmy

Its kinda like
Bystander: Does it hav eyes
WDP: No, it has COPS/SENSI a much better system than eyes because it cant be fooled by paint....
Bystander: Oh... Im buying a Timmy

Maybe LX is not like COPS in function but it carries with it the same ideas.

You win on submersibility of the marker - ever tried to play with paintballs that have been submersed?

[minimag03]

What I'm about to say may get me stoned to death on this thread. And please, accept my statement that there's no insult intended to anyone associated with any high-end mech projects as a sincere one. But......

Outside of hard-core paintball purists such us those who frequent this forum (myself included), who cares about Mechs nowadays. The market has spoken and they have resoundingly said NAY. Whether you're talking to a high-end tourney baller or some young kid looking to get into the sport, their desires are focused on the electro markers.

Business being business, wouldn't it be easier to negotiate more liveable terms with either SP and WDP than to ramp your production and spend money marketing a product that only a small segment of the playing population can truly appreciate. Does it make sense to produce something that down the road the economies of scale can not be taken advantage of? Does it make good business sense to produce something that has a limited growth potential?

A friend of mine made a pretty interesting qoute regarding this very same matter. Coming out with a high-end Mech, he said, "is tantamount to to the Polish Cavalry charging against the German Panzers in 1939....... gallant but woefully inadequate."

Unless the big boys (NPPL and PSP) decide to come up with an all-mech division in their respective leagues, what's really gonna drive the demand for a super mech. What I comfort myself with is the notion that the industry is still evolving. Much as the pumps have been relagated to an earlier chapter in the history of the game, so at some point the Mechs will find their own chapter.

And this is coming from a guy who has written on his Will that he must be buried with his 1999 Evolution clutched in his right hand. Let the stoning begin......

No

-minimag03

[hitech]

Lets be honest this isn't Elec v Mechs, its Legal Semi v. Ramp. That's the issue. IF you want to shoot an e fast, just jump into your user settings right before a game, and then bounce your opponents into the dead box.


That really gets right to the point. It's also what Tom was worried about.

When comparing a legal electro and a super-mech they compare favorably.

[hitech]

And sorry to tell you, just because Tom says SP and their lawsuits is one of the reasons does not make it THE reason, nor a valid reason...And you (or Tom, or anyone) can’t now claim that they “might” have contacted them in the future...No matter what Tom wants some to now believe.

I didn't claim it to be the only reason. However, it was a big reason. Tom personally told me so, and I don't believe he is lying. You can claim so if you wish...

And yes, "we" can claim that they "might" have. The threat of a lawsuit has been the reason behind many, many business descissions.

It wasn't the only reason, but it was a big one.

[WARPED1]

The sad part is I take my mag out to the field and people are like "What type of gun is that?" cause everyone and their mother shoots some form of an e-gun.
Theres no room for the mech anymore. Even starter guns are becoming those ESpyders. Only non electro place nowadays is to play stock, even then, someone will find a way to electrify a stock gun probably! :p

[skife]

i think a super-mech gun will rock when some of the larger orginazations put a cap on ROF, try capping a mech gun.

[shartley]

Theres no room for the mech anymore. Even starter guns are becoming those ESpyders. Only non electro place nowadays is to play stock, even then, someone will find a way to electrify a stock gun probably! :p
I have been agreeing with you a lot lately…. But I don’t agree with that statement.

I see mechanical markers purchased every day. And I see them as always being around.

Heck, I remember when every time I turned around I heard “Co2 is a thing of the past. All the markers now days just work better with HPA and all the Pros are using them in tournaments.” Well…… Co2 didn’t go anywhere. And neither are mechanical markers.

Yes, we see more and more electronic markers on the field and they have become VERY affordable so have become the first marker of many, but not all.

[Lohman446]

i think a super-mech gun will rock when some of the larger orginazations put a cap on ROF, try capping a mech gun.

After whining about the safety issues of the ROF of super electros that were just plain faster than our mechs we have built a super mech that will exceed that cap put in place, supposedly for safety :rolleyes: , by large organizations. We expect to be allowed to use it for one game.. or until the robot/radar/chrono catches us, whichever comes first. :rolleyes: After which said hypothetical organization, will simply ban them for safety reasons... how ironic

[Lohman446]

I have been agreeing with you a lot lately…. But I don’t agree with that statement.

I see mechanical markers purchased every day. And I see them as always being around.

Heck, I remember when every time I turned around I heard “Co2 is a thing of the past. All the markers now days just work better with HPA and all the Pros are using them in tournaments.” Well…… Co2 didn’t go anywhere. And neither are mechanical markers.

Yes, we see more and more electronic markers on the field and they have become VERY affordable so have become the first marker of many, but not all.

What if we change Warped statement to there is very little room for a $700 mechanical marker?

[shartley]

What if we change Warped statement to there is very little room for a $700 mechanical marker?
Now I could agree with that. I always thought AGD markers (manual) were overpriced to compete in the marketplace up against other mechanical markers. Most people who jump to those prices were jumping to electros. And at one point I could actually take my RTPro out and go head to head with electros on the field… but heck, now days even cheap electros are VERY fast.

It used to be said that to increase your speed you needed to get a better marker… now you just have to get a better loader/hopper.

There is still a very large market for high quality mechanical markers, but more in the line of up to $400 or so. That would compete directly with other top end mechanical markers such as Palmers makes (Strokers), and even knock their Typhoons out of the running. Of course they have a specialty market and those who wanted a PPS marker would more than likely not pick a $400 Mag anyways. So it is a tough call really.

You see, even with mechanical markers there are different segments of the market. But I think that if you could get a high end manual marker in the $400 range that has the same speeds as the average electro…. I think there still may be a market for it. I know that if I personally approved of the marker I would market it in my circles… heck I even did that for the RTPro.

BUT…. I think for the average player it is a hard sell to buy a manual marker that is $400+ and that requires that you use ONLY HPA. That is another thing that I think has been a limiting factor for Mags in the past few years as well.

So I guess as you can see, for me it is not a simple answer of yes or no.

[WARPED1]

I have been agreeing with you a lot lately…. But I don’t agree with that statement.

I see mechanical markers purchased every day. And I see them as always being around.

Heck, I remember when every time I turned around I heard “Co2 is a thing of the past. All the markers now days just work better with HPA and all the Pros are using them in tournaments.” Well…… Co2 didn’t go anywhere. And neither are mechanical markers.

Yes, we see more and more electronic markers on the field and they have become VERY affordable so have become the first marker of many, but not all.
Well, not all, but most mech markers are going extinct. I really hope the mag stays, it's a great marker, but it appears that AGD might be going under for real this time. :(

[SlartyBartFast]

BUT…. I think for the average player it is a hard sell to buy a manual marker that is $400+ and that requires that you use ONLY HPA. That is another thing that I think has been a limiting factor for Mags in the past few years as well.

What ever happened to TK promissed valve for the TACOne that would work fine with CO2 but could be changed to HPA?

Is there REALLY a need for a Super Mech?

Well, Is there REALLY a need for paintball? .... :eek: :rofl:

[phantomhitman]

I see a need for a super mech - but it's a niche product. Why would anyone buy a carter buzzard? Why would anyone buy a J5? Why would anyone buy a karta/dallara 'mag? Why would anyone buy a "high end" autococker? A phantom would do the same as the buzzard, and a $30 "brute" from ebay probably would too. A trilogy cocker will do the same thing as a J5 or orracle or micro-x. A ule custom will do the same thing as a dallara 'mag. A eblade, e-spyder, or e-mag will do everything the above can do, but faster.

Why do we need expensive, refined, high-precision, high-performance mechanical paintball markers? Because there's a enduring market for nice stuff, even though it is "inferior" by being mechanical. Somebody's gotta sell it.

Mechs will die out. Sooner or later, tippmann will release a well built rental-quality marker that comes with a electronic trigger by default - and then we'll all be hosed. Electros went from being the oddball new thing, to being flakey midlevel items, to being high end paint sprayers, and now they're into the base level market as well. It's an eventual progression - the automotive industry has just finished going through this same process. But even when you can't find a mech marker in wal-mart, somebody will be making one somewhere.

The funny thing is, even if the PSP or NPPL start up an all-mech division, so what? You'd see people on the field with pblades and hAir triggers, out to get every advantage they can. Super gear will always exist as long as people want to buy better stuff - so there'll be junky mechs and super mechs, crap electro sear-trippers and super spool valve monsters.

this is one of the best posts about this subject. however i do not think mechs will die out. but "supermechs" will indeed, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, try to get any little edge they can. play what you want and how you want.

this is a great thread by the way. most of the posts are informative and correct, and not much flaming going on.

[PBX Ronin 23]

A niche market is one thing. Some have succeeded in them. All you have to do is look at Glen Palmer and AO's very own Tunaman to realize that is indeed the case.

At that point, the product becomes more of the custom vareity produced by artisans and consummed by connosieurs. If this is one's goal then there's nothing wrong with it.

But if we are thinking that a super-mech can make a dent and steal away market share from the electro market, then we are doing so wishfully.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

i run both an RT, and the SFL Emag. have I ever chopped a ball NO . have i ever turned my eye on in my SFL? NO. same goes for all the markers ive had with lvl10. out of the 4 diffferent valves that ive owned with level10, i have only chopped 1 ball with any of them. now this comes from me playing every 2 weeks, and sometimes every week. shooting about a case each week, more if its a tournament.

i find that completely astonishing considering that some of you say that mechs cant compete cause they'll end up chopping. guess what, the worst marker i ever had for chopping is my ecocker. eye is perfect on that thing, and i use a halo. somehow ive gotten chops about everytime i play with it. even my mech cocker had less chops.

so before you all start putting it off like mechs chop, look around and see whats actually out there to help against this(jambolt/lvl10). can a mech stop before it fires cause there's no ball in the breech? no. does it have to? no.

The problem is people dont believe it. All they know is Marker A has Ace and Marker B doesnt. They go and buy Marker A. Many dont want to worry about the level 10 and setup. Yes it is easy, but it can be a hassle. Some say " Level 10 certainly works, but I dont want a 99% chance of zero chops, I want 100%." They know and trust ACE, not level 10. They will stick with ACE, probably forever. Whats better, a system that prevents a chop from ever happening, or one that can still chop but 99% of the time wont.

[pump]

wow all you guys are smart
i agree with you all

me i would just like to see mags on top again
would be cool to see those toruney teams shooting mags

things would truely have gone full circle



but i only shoot eletronic semis or pumps
so i dont know if you guys should listen to me

i just wanted to be parts of this discussion its so cool

[PBX Ronin 23]

Pump. I'm just glad that the stoning hasn't started yet. This is the kind of thread that AO is all about. Thought provoking even if it is contentious.

[pump]

dont worry come to hawaii
ill get you stoned hahahaha


i think electros are mainstream right now

if a robust, easily fixable, walkable mechanical gun comes out with a price just under the rest of entry level electros it would take over

here in Hawaii it gets wet a lot many a e spyder fries here

[PBX Ronin 23]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I meant "stoning" in the biblical sense. You meant the "Cheech and Chong" sense.

[Magaman]

OK


(Originally Posted by digitalqwest) Produce a Super Mech stick it in a half naked chicks hands and ill buy one!

Poster comes with the Mag :bounce:

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=86&stc=1

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: That was good... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Uhum... Sorry... :ninja: