AGD- make us an aluminum classic valve

[punkncat]

I would love to see the classic re-released as an Aluminum valve , w/ lvl 7 . Reduce the weight , and anno them in several colors. Annoed colors will give that custom look everyone likes as well instead of the surgical look of the SS valve hanging off the back of the mag. Most importantly , bring back the availability of using CO2 .Many people don't have HPA around ...
.....and get reliability back. The classic valves were so rock solid , and really did live up to the claim of zero maintainance.

I had heard a rumor some time back that there was an on/off being made to convert X valves back to being able to use CO2. I kinda wonder if just dropping in a classic on/off would do it.......anyway , X valves are great in their own way. Super fast and all , but arguably have taken itself out of the market in price. They also require a certain amount of mechanical ability in that they commonly need adjustment and attention. There are not too many noobs out there that even consider paying $400+ for a mechanical marker that its known they will have to start fooling with LVL10 after their first game , and have to replace the bumper every second game , etc.

Get back to the basics. The design is already there. Its time tested , and true. Just make it out of aluminum , anno it and sell one to me :D

[FreakBaller12]

I don't know if it's feasable, but it sounds like a good idea for some people where hpa isn't available, or a cheap backup valve.

[minimag03]

I'd like to see it, but I bet it would cost just a little bit less than the X-valve. It would be nice for AGD to come out with a new 68 Automag with ULE body and alum. valve though.

-minimag03

[mag88888]

i wuld LOVE to see have a drop in mod to make an x valve ok to use with co2. that would rock. jusst for the times that im out of hpa, i can use co2. all my friends use co2. great ideas punkncat.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Tom said a while back that they had planned to release a drop-in on/off to make an x-valve work like a classic.

[slade]

from what ive heard the reason the x-valve doesnt work with co2 is because of the o-rings, so if they were changed co2 would work (not that some people havent already gotten it to work, but...)

as far as releasing a redesigned ule classic valve,i dont think it would be very plausible. correct me if im wrong, but when classics were released the valve cost as much as x-valves, maybe more; the reason they are cheap now is because theyre old and outdated. making new ones would cost as much as x-valves, and i dont think anyone would want that.

[magman007]

its not the orings in the sence that you are thinking, the way its currently setup, the valve recharges SO fast, that the co2 cannot convert to a gas, damages all the orings, and leaks

[Chronobreak]

not happening..LOL

agd phased the pos classics out for a reason.

all we have and are getting now is colored x-valve learn to lvoe it ;)

btw we still need more colors ;) LIKE NICKEL( i know they said they wont :()

[Kevmaster]

agd has had for two years now (or so) a drop in part to the x-valve that will make it lose the super-recharge rate and make it so it can take co2 (in effect, a classic valve). It is beyond me why they havn't reintroduced the classic with that part in it.

[punkncat]

agd has had for two years now (or so) a drop in part to the x-valve that will make it lose the super-recharge rate and make it so it can take co2 (in effect, a classic valve). It is beyond me why they havn't reintroduced the classic with that part in it.

If this is true.....

LETS SEE IT!!!!!

It would be awesome for them to do that , put in a lvl 7 and rock with it.

[Ken]

If they made a new classic valve at an affordable price, AGD WOULD DOMINATE spyder market! Imagine it a 175-250 dolllar automag that you can use co2 and is available in most stores backed by the most reliable design ever!


DO IT!
Ken

[Chronobreak]

yeah agd was suppose to make a co2 compat valve or asembly.......this was a LONG time ago

havent hear anything new about it.

if they are indeed out i know some interested parties ;) ex if it worked with x-vavles.

[mcdkid]

it sounds good, but that would also be a step back. taking time/money away from new projects. i would like to see this happen, and maybe Dave as a place in his heart for the classics,

[GT]

anyone try a female stab on an X valve? X valves are far less reactive than there SS counter parts. i just figured that they would be less prone to co2 issues than past rt style valves.

[slade]

its not the orings in the sence that you are thinking, the way its currently setup, the valve recharges SO fast, that the co2 cannot convert to a gas, damages all the orings, and leaks
ahh, cool. wasnt sure if it was the materials or the mechanics of the valve.


If they made a new classic valve at an affordable price, AGD WOULD DOMINATE spyder market! Imagine it a 175-250 dolllar automag that you can use co2 and is available in most stores backed by the most reliable design ever!
or you could get one used... this is coming from the kid that got a classic for free :rolleyes:

although yes, its not too plausible, but if AGD could re-release a classic with an aluminum valve and a redesigned frame (ugh i hate that stock frame) they would crush kingman.

[Kevmaster]

anyone try a female stab on an X valve? X valves are far less reactive than there SS counter parts. i just figured that they would be less prone to co2 issues than past rt style valves.

the problem is not with liquid getting into the marker (although that too would cause aproblem)...its that the co2 is very prone to changing pressures when it heats up (much more so than HPA). it will shoot hot and inconsistant when it goes through the valve and gets heated up

[peewee]

Thats why back in the day before HPA we had some really funky :dance: remote setups. Mine had a total of three expansion chambers , one right off my tank one at the bottem of the grip & my forgrip. Getting a 20 point hot gun penalty was a tourny killer.

[than205]

not happening..LOL

agd phased the pos classics out for a reason.



Do you really think they're a pos?
If you do, I totally disagree with that statement. If I'm missing the irony, my bad.

I think the classic was phased out more for economic reasons than anything else.

Out of nostalgia sake, last night I rewatched the Odyssey footage of the Halo on top of the Hyperframed classic doing 16 bps. Seemed pretty consistent to me.

So I'm left to conclude the only thing the classic needed was a e-frame that was easy to get up to speed. Because from what I read on all these forums is that 16 bps is very competative with everything.

[Muzikman]

If they made a new classic valve at an affordable price, AGD WOULD DOMINATE spyder market! Imagine it a 175-250 dolllar automag that you can use co2 and is available in most stores backed by the most reliable design ever!


DO IT!
Ken


EDIT: I stand corrected...

[Chronobreak]

classic wasnt a "POS" however comapred to the RT it is inferiror. as agd has phased other things out it is only natural those would go as well and they stick to the x-valves.

there was a dicusion of a on/off or reg/valve being compat with co2 or more compat.
a stab is a good sttart...


this would be a great mod for tac-ones ;)

[Lohman446]

If they made a new classic valve at an affordable price, AGD WOULD DOMINATE spyder market! Imagine it a 175-250 dolllar automag that you can use co2 and is available in most stores backed by the most reliable design ever!


DO IT!
Ken


Just out of curiosity, what makes you think it would be any cheaper to make an aluminum classic valve than it is to make an X-valve?

[than205]

classic wasnt a "POS" however comapred to the RT it is inferiror. as agd has phased other things out it is only natural those would go as well and they stick to the x-valves.

there was a dicusion of a on/off or reg/valve being compat with co2 or more compat.
a stab is a good sttart...


this would be a great mod for tac-ones ;)

Just for discussions sake, how is it inferior?
If we consider the 16 bps, the fact that if maintained properly it will be as consistant as anything else, it doesn't have a velocity ramp if you fire it quickly and no tourney hosts are confused about some vague wording in old tourney rules or their own insurance terms?

I have an idea what others will say, but I'm curious what you think?

[Chronobreak]

Just for discussions sake, how is it inferior?
If we consider the 16 bps, the fact that if maintained properly it will be as consistant as anything else, it doesn't have a velocity ramp if you fire it quickly and no tourney hosts are confused about some vague wording in old tourney rules or their own insurance terms?

I have an idea what others will say, but I'm curious what you think?

inferior obviously

as for the classic it is a good desighn.....but tis time has passed

come one now 16 bps is what is theoreticly capable of.. i dont know anyone that can hit over 11 on a classic.

as for 11 on an rt is fairly easy.

rt has a faster recharge and better valve architecture

going electrical... 16 bps is stil somewhat alot but YOU and I know for a fact players would be comlaining they cant keep or they get shootdown blah blah blah.

as somoen else said tis about the same amt to make the x-valve as the classic so whynot just amke ONE good valve...les trouble for agd, and ebtter for us.

another reason is that with the new ule prices they would be selling classics at a price they wouldnt be making $ really.

there are more reasons but i dont want to waste my time do a search or seomthing.

[gc82000]

good points. But I think they just want a mod that will allow them to use CO2 instead of HPA. A mod should be good enough right, whether it be a drop-in or other wise.

[than205]

inferior obviously

as for the classic it is a good desighn.....but tis time has passed

come one now 16 bps is what is theoreticly capable of.. i dont know anyone that can hit over 11 on a classic.

as for 11 on an rt is fairly easy.

rt has a faster recharge and better valve architecture

going electrical... 16 bps is stil somewhat alot but YOU and I know for a fact players would be comlaining they cant keep or they get shootdown blah blah blah.

as somoen else said tis about the same amt to make the x-valve as the classic so whynot just amke ONE good valve...les trouble for agd, and ebtter for us.

another reason is that with the new ule prices they would be selling classics at a price they wouldnt be making $ really.

there are more reasons but i dont want to waste my time do a search or seomthing.


I'm just tired of people on other forums saying don't buy an RT, you won't be able to use it in a tourney. When we have people all over this forum doing just that, playing in tourneys.
It's just plain ignorance, both on the part of the posters and tourney hosts.
So, I say what we also need is a very fast e-frame and I wonder if the RT is overkill.
Mind you, I own both (RT and Classic). ;)

I've owned about half the things that AGD has put out.

[White_Noise]

i just wish i had that quote from tom about building something perfect, and then everyone wanting different colors.

[Gabriel]

If they made a new classic valve at an affordable price, AGD WOULD DOMINATE spyder market! Imagine it a 175-250 dolllar automag that you can use co2 and is available in most stores backed by the most reliable design ever!


DO IT!
Ken

I, the noble lord of the Knights of the Old Spyder, TOTALLY FREAKIN AGREE! Especially since AGD has moved more towards rec/scenario oriented ball. I think if they re-introduced an aluminum valved Classic for $150-$200 they would crush the new WGP at least. And please, for the love of god change the frame.

And then make an cheap (read: cast aluminum) e-grip (yeah I know we all hate SP, but sometimes you just gotta grin and bare it... just freakin SETTLE WITH THEM ALREADY!) AGD would dominate.

[vf-xx]

good points. But I think they just want a mod that will allow them to use CO2 instead of HPA. A mod should be good enough right, whether it be a drop-in or other wise.

To the best of my knowledge I believe you can drop in a classic on/off into an xvalve and you're set. You may have to add an extra o-ring, I forget.

[spasticsquirrel]

there is a bigger market of new people guns than senario guns...


oh yah, no comment about the new valves you want.

[barrel break]

If they made a new classic valve at an affordable price, AGD WOULD DOMINATE spyder market! Imagine it a 175-250 dolllar automag that you can use co2 and is available in most stores backed by the most reliable design ever!


DO IT!
Ken

No, I am afraid it would not. kid who sees a 7-9 BPS mech classic with a long akward trigger pull next to a smiliarly (even cheaper) 13BPS mouse click spyder wil choose the spyder most of the time.

[ScatterPlot]

Why would AGD revert back to the stone ages? After all the work about overcoming a slow ROF and being a blender, they introduce a gun that brings all that back. It would have to have LX, and as much as I would like to see AGD grow new kids aren't gonna opt for a new mag with some doohickey that he has to fix himself. He will want out of the box reliability. The mag will always be at LEAST a mid-range gun. I think AGD should make something for the new people, just to be able to bring in profits and all and to get their name out there in the hands of new kids playing.

[Muzikman]

Why would AGD revert back to the stone ages? After all the work about overcoming a slow ROF and being a blender, they introduce a gun that brings all that back. It would have to have LX, and as much as I would like to see AGD grow new kids aren't gonna opt for a new mag with some doohickey that he has to fix himself. He will want out of the box reliability. The mag will always be at LEAST a mid-range gun. I think AGD should make something for the new people, just to be able to bring in profits and all and to get their name out there in the hands of new kids playing.


A calssic valve has a ROF of 13bps before drop off and the level 10 will work on it. So, I think that is a decent ROF and no chopping. I don't see what is bad about it. a CO2 mag would be good.

[slade]

To the best of my knowledge I believe you can drop in a classic on/off into an xvalve and you're set. You may have to add an extra o-ring, I forget.
assuming the reason co2 doesnt work with xvalves is the fast recharge rate, then it is the regulator that would have to be changed, not the on/off. and anyway, if the on/off were what caused the difference, then you could put an rt on/off in a classic and make it an rt.

[vf-xx]

assuming the reason co2 doesnt work with xvalves is the fast recharge rate, then it is the regulator that would have to be changed, not the on/off. and anyway, if the on/off were what caused the difference, then you could put an rt on/off in a classic and make it an rt.

I just remember asking something along those lines when I toured AGD a while back. I don't remember who told me about the on/off tho.

As for the regulator needing to be changed, I'm not sure about that. Granted the reg on the RT is different than the Classic, but in both systems I think the bottle neck is the on/off.

Best way to test it is to experiment. I would, but I don't have a classic on/off to run the test.

[11_Mile_TMaster]

To the best of my knowledge I believe you can drop in a classic on/off into an xvalve and you're set. You may have to add an extra o-ring, I forget.


That won't do it at all. Compare an RT to a classic in terms of design... There's another hole in the valve chamber that somehow relates to the Reg-pin... Taken from one of Tom's posts in the Tac-One thread...:


WOW! As ususal AO comes through in a big way, THANKS!! We will drop the ULT trigger or make it an upgrade option.

Here is another new idea, what if you could change one part in the X valve and make it run off CO2? This might be doable by changing the center regulator valve pin. If we made them without a center hole and narrow enough that they didnt seal on the oring in the reg back half, it would work just like a Classic valve on CO2.

I would like to hear more on the grip frame debate. Some vote for the carbon fiber frame others for the Intelliframe.

Thanks,

AGD


From what I know about the RT versus a Classic in design, This sounds about like what would have to be done. However, I am not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination. Just a tinkerer.

Personally, I've seen enough people using HPA with lower end guns to not really see the need for a CO2 X-valve anymore on a mid end gun like the Mag. I will admit that is a change in position from, say, a year ago or so... as I was one of the people saying that AGD should try to make a CO2 compatible X-valve in that thread.

Not that I'd object to one. ;)

[ScatterPlot]

What was proposed was one with no LX on it. Bottom line, the LX isn't something that a new kid is gonna want to have to adjust. The ROF is fine, that was my bad, but it's still not gonna outperform that sear tripper mouseclick gun. As much as I or any of us want to see AGD sell a million mags to new kids, it's not gonna happen with the current design. I'm not saying they couldn't make ANYTHING that they could not sell to new kids, but the regular mag is not a new kids gun. Now something like a devilmag maybe, or like apply what spyder has done with their sear trippers to make maybe a slower introductory mag with a LX and some eyes. Eyes don't need adjusting like the LX does. I would go for the LX personally, but new kids would go head over heels for a new gun with eyes. As far as I know, eyes are relatively cheap to add to something. Being the only new gun with eyes would be a big selling point for people getting into the sport. I say find a good cheap way to make bodies for mags with an integrated rail, cause the mag body has got to be easier to machine than a spyder one cause it has one less hole and less moving parts and all to work with. An integrated rail would be just the thing to keep it simple enough for the average new kid to work with. Throw a sear tripper frame on it with some eyes, along with a classic valve and IMO you could get something thats pretty cheap. Maybe make the body like they did originally with the SS; two pieces of pipe welded together would seem to me to be very much cheaper than CNCing a block of aluminum. Granted you would still have the rail, but if the reduced cost of having separate parts was great enough to offset the cost of the one-piece things then it would be OK to have them separate. Forget the LX; just reintroduce the classic with a slow (comparatively) electro frame on it, and there's a nice new kid gun.

[SlartyBartFast]

From what I know about the RT versus a Classic in design, This sounds about like what would have to be done. However, I am not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination. Just a tinkerer.

That's the real big danger in using CO2 with the RT/X-valve. When the dump chamber is being charged, pressure dumps directly from the pressure source to the dump chamber.

As CO2 is unstable and can change quickly under varying temperature and pressure, there's a real risk of dumping liquid CO2 into the dump chamber. That would result in dangerously high velocities.

Of course that would be the same as the original "Smart Box". THe ones on the All Americans Mags would allow them to flood the marker with liquid CO2 and dramatically raise their velocities. At least that's what I was led to believe....

[hitech]

Of course that would be the same as the original "Smart Box". THe ones on the All Americans Mags would allow them to flood the marker with liquid CO2 and dramatically raise their velocities. At least that's what I was led to believe....

One of the great things about AO. I had always wondered how they could "peel the bark of the tree" when no one on our team could even get close... Until someone pointed that out on AO. I know it's a litle OT, but I wanted to post a little positive. Many, many, many questions I've had have been answered here on AO. And not just about paintball...


:cheers:

[11_Mile_TMaster]

That's the real big danger in using CO2 with the RT/X-valve. When the dump chamber is being charged, pressure dumps directly from the pressure source to the dump chamber.

As CO2 is unstable and can change quickly under varying temperature and pressure, there's a real risk of dumping liquid CO2 into the dump chamber. That would result in dangerously high velocities.

Of course that would be the same as the original "Smart Box". THe ones on the All Americans Mags would allow them to flood the marker with liquid CO2 and dramatically raise their velocities. At least that's what I was led to believe....

I'm not arguing with that. :) I've never looked at and followed the whole airflow in the RT Valve, but There is another hole in the On/off section, going back to the reg half, IIRC. Somehow all of this facilitates the recharge at input pressure. (I'm just making sure we're on the same page here)
... All of which brings up another point... Say we go through the whole Higher operating pressure, Smaller dump chamber, would that result in a faster recharge? I'm honestly not sure, (once again, Not an engineer,) But I would think since it was a smaller volume of air to be filled, it should at least be BETTER than a regular classic at a lower PSI filling a higher volume chamber. I could be HORRIBLY wrong on this point, though.

[Muzikman]

Smaller air chamber and higher pressure should increase recharge.

Two problems...

1. Do you actually need faster recharge?

2. People already cry about the mag being High pressure.

If I am missing your point and this is not where you were going with it, sorry.

[ScatterPlot]

The mag suffers enough with perceived efficiency questions. I don't think it would fly too well if we made it get even less shots out of a tank.

Notice though that I said perceived efficiency. What I am talking about here is how you can't dig quite as deep into that tank of yours with a mag, since it requires such a high input pressure to begin with. I dunno though, there might be a way. But what I know is that when my tank starts getting close to that 1000 mark, I know I will need to fill up soon after. Lots of guns need what, like 400? It's not the actual efficiency that I'm referring to here, but how deep into a tank of relatively low pressure gas that might catch up to you in a high pressure, low volume type scenario.

[vf-xx]

That won't do it at all. Compare an RT to a classic in terms of design... There's another hole in the valve chamber that somehow relates to the Reg-pin... Taken from one of Tom's posts in the Tac-One thread...:




From what I know about the RT versus a Classic in design, This sounds about like what would have to be done. However, I am not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination. Just a tinkerer.

Personally, I've seen enough people using HPA with lower end guns to not really see the need for a CO2 X-valve anymore on a mid end gun like the Mag. I will admit that is a change in position from, say, a year ago or so... as I was one of the people saying that AGD should try to make a CO2 compatible X-valve in that thread.

Not that I'd object to one. ;)


Oh, ok. That's what I was remembering. Thanks!

[maglover728]

It is just easier for me to accept that an aluminum classic isn't going to happen.