What actions can we promote that will bring back the old AO?

[GT]

A few ides,

1. add a karma system. If you see a person with a good post, give them some karma. Karma levels give you acceses to certian forums.

your turn...

[Miscue]

A few ides,

1. add a karma system. If you see a person with a good post, give them some karma. Karma levels give you acceses to certian forums.

your turn...

Trying to look into this... being discussed right now in mod forum. The Karma system works out well, because we don't look like buttholes by saying who can and can't be in (even if we are making good decisions) - basically up to AO users to determine that.

[SpecialBlend2786]

Trying to look into this... being discussed right now in mod forum. The Karma system works out well, because we don't look like buttholes by saying who can and can't be in (even if we are making good decisions) - basically up to AO users to determine that.

There are alot of personal vendetta's on AO though, dont you think the system could be abused?

EDIT: I guess it could only be abused if there was a bad karma option or something

[Miscue]

There are alot of personal vendetta's on AO though, dont you think the system could be abused?

Yeah... which is why the mods should be able to adjust Karma to compensate. :p

Only for exceptional cases...

[GT]

Yeah... which is why the mods should be able to adjust Karma to compensate. :p...

sssshhhhhhhhh
:D

[SpecialBlend2786]

Yeah... which is why the mods should be able to adjust Karma to compensate. :p

Only for exceptional cases...

heh............................ :hail:

[BeaverEater]

I like the idea of karma too. You should be able to maybe only b/s/t with good karma

[SpecialBlend2786]

I like the idea of karma too. You should be able to maybe only b/s/t with good karma

Thats actually a great idea. A kind of feedback system. If you have crappy feedback/karma you souldn't be allowed to b/s/t untill your karma goes up

[Python14]

Don't have negative Karma. It's unneed. With just regular Karma, it means that if you think someones post was stupid and ignorant, you do just that...you ignore there post(and Karma). If someone makes a good post and it warrants good Karma....no one can take Karma away from them to screw them over. Only the people who make exceptional posts or just happen to be good people and earn Karma get in.

[SpecialBlend2786]

Don't have negative Karma. It's unneed. With just regular Karma, it means that if you think someones post was stupid and ignorant, you do just that...you ignore there post(and Karma). If someone makes a good post and it warrants good Karma....no one can take Karma away from them to screw them over. Only the people who make exceptional posts or just happen to be good people and earn Karma get in.

sounds good.

[magman007]

well, what about people who will feel left out? the people we dont really want in the karma forum, but give eachother karma for no reason? i forsee this happening, and everyone giving everyone else karma for no reason other than they are friends


ex.


postwhore A omgzorz!!!!!!


post whore b gives A karma, because they are friends




you know? thats all im worried about. sorry to be negative, i love the idea, and i hope that people feel i contribute enough to recieve karma, and i am longing for the days of old once again. i think its an amazing idea, and if i had the option id give gt karma, or eprops or what ever for comming up with the idea. Rock on

[Kevmaster]

yeah, i mean, if everyone in a group of twenty friends on AO gave everyone good karma....it kinda washes away the value of iut.

i say ke AO the same...everything open to everyone.


also...get RID of post count (both in the member list and under your handle)

[SpecialBlend2786]

yeah, i mean, if everyone in a group of twenty friends on AO gave everyone good karma....it kinda washes away the value of iut.

i say ke AO the same...everything open to everyone.


also...get RID of post count (both in the member list and under your handle)

yeah, do post count PBN style.

[Teamslayer76]

I really think both of these idea wouldnt work. Some people are very knowledge able and don't post alot and could help all of us. Also the Karma thing could just get scammed and people would go crazy. And there are some people who really really dislike each other. But I like eveyone here, even if I don't know you... :)

[teufelhunden]

How about banning the 5 idiots who cause, directly or indirectly, the turmoil that's making AO turn to crap?

[JoshK]

why take it away? it shows how active you are...but then again you could have joined like 4 years ago and only post VERY informative posts...or opposite.

[gc82000]

also...get RID of post count (both in the member list and under your handle)


Why Should we geet rid of the post count I dont see any reason to be rid of it. I like the way AO is as a whole. It is simple to use and you get see everyone here and the post counter just goes to show the amount of time you spend on AO.

[MicroMiniMe]

well, what about people who will feel left out? the people we dont really want in the karma forum, but give eachother karma for no reason? i forsee this happening, and everyone giving everyone else karma for no reason other than they are friends

What about some kind of caps. Like person A can only give person B karma like 1/month, maybe only one time ever if its supposed to be a low karma overall system. Or limit the karma you can get for each post, maybe more for starting a good thread. Maybe limit karma granting to certain subforums and not in others.

[68magOwner]

I like the karma idea, but, think it may turn into friends giving each other good karma, rather than rewarding helpful/intelegent posters, would be interesting to try to say the least

edit- a B/S/T for good- karma posters only would be cool, avoid getting ripped

[Gabriel]

Don't have negative Karma. It's unneed. With just regular Karma, it means that if you think someones post was stupid and ignorant, you do just that...you ignore there post(and Karma). If someone makes a good post and it warrants good Karma....no one can take Karma away from them to screw them over. Only the people who make exceptional posts or just happen to be good people and earn Karma get in.

and new guys? will no one read thier posts? will they not be able to b/s/t? I can only remember twice where I was told by AGD "good post, glad to have you here". I read alot of posts that aren't bad, but a genuinely GOOD post comes once every blue moon.

And also, what about kids that go to school? They could set up one s/n at home and one on a school computer, and give the home s/n alot of karma.

Basically, I don't like the idea. I just think the mods should ban people more often, that'll get the point across. I dont mean permanently banned, just for 5 days or so.

[FreakBaller12]

What about some kind of caps. Like person A can only give person B karma like 1/month, maybe only one time ever if its supposed to be a low karma overall system. Or limit the karma you can get for each post, maybe more for starting a good thread. Maybe limit karma granting to certain subforums and not in others.


good idea :clap:


I also say replace the post count with your karma points. Which would now become AO's status symbol. As miscue said before, it all relies on AO's trust that they'll use this, and not abuse it. Maybe have one secret forum for certain karma level, not like 2 or 3. One, and only one if any.

[JoshK]

Double post. :) ...oh well...but I dont think it would be a bad thing to atleast try karma. Maybe we could have a select B/S/T for people with good karma(people without alot of karma can post, but cant make new threads, or people without karma can view only, and have to contact the people other ways). So their posts will get more attention. But the people without alot of karma can still sell their stuff.

[phantomhitman]

How about banning the 5 idiots who cause, directly or indirectly, the turmoil that's making AO turn to crap?
um, i found it. you answer is right here.



some of the posts whores are funny every once in a while, but enough is enough. you stop a problem by simply.....stopping it where it starts. not easy, but the most effective way.

[SpecialBlend2786]

www.matrixowner.com has pretty strict rules, i never see anything getting out of hand over there. Here are the rules as posted by Hawk, i'll just paste them here for convenience:

Post subject: I SWEAR TO GOD, IF YOU DON'T READ THIS FIRST...!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ORIGINALLY POSTED BY OVERCAST:
When posting a problem to these forums, please use the search function of the forums first. Most likely your problem has already been described and solved in great detail in a previous thread. If it has not. CLEARLY STATE:

1. The problem itself
2. When it occurs, what circumstances lead to this problem occuring
3. What your current setup is at the time of the problem. This includes operation pressure, any and all mods, current bolt kit, air systems and regulators etc. I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH.
4. Anything else that would help us easily diagnose your situation.
5. A CLEAR AND PRECISE POST SUBJECT
If I see any posts with a subject including
- OMG
- Help me
- Hello
- You must know the answer
- Please help this newbie
- Something wrong
- Come on MO gurus
- This one for you
- Just wondering
- This is too complicated for me
- possible?
- Very urgent
- I have a question
- Stupid question
- Newbie needs help
- pulling my hair out
- this is driving me nuts
- WHAT THE?!?!
- HELP PLEASE!
I will delete them. I'm serious about this.
6.Asking us what the best matrix or what you should buy is not OUR problem. Do your homework.

I am serious. Especially new members.
I was very forgiving on new members, but not any more.
So 2 things!
READ the RULES!!
If you don't, and your post violates the Rules, then it will be deleted, end of story.
I spend entirely too much time on here cleaning up threads when I could be helping people.
READ the RULES!! READ the RULES!! READ the RULES!!

[ntn4502]

#1 and only way:

Make me mod and let me ban all the stupid people...

[Target Practice]

How about a private, invite-only forum, kinda like some of the stuff that the Thorums have? That way, you could have a place to where the "good" members can post and share info. It'd be kinda like AO Chat now (except, you know, fun...;).

I guess the question would then become if it should be able to be seen or not by the general population of AO.

If it can be seen, I imagine that a lot of whining would be going on. To get around this, the mods can partake in what seems to be their favorite activity...banning. Any complaints about it from the outside result in bans for the user.

If it can't be seen, then it doesn't really matter what people think. In fact, you could be more loose with the rules, if this was the case.

Of course, if the whole thing goes under the radar, I'm gonna assume it's the latter..... :ninja:

[JoshK]

www.matrixowner.com has pretty strict rules, i never see anything getting out of hand over there. Here are the rules as posted by Hawk, i'll just paste them here for convenience:



Well those rules are good. But this is a big forum so its harder to enforce. If they did rules like that, they would probly need more mods. And that means haveing to have the Paintball Newb as one :) .

[paintballrulzs]

I think those are strong rules. Too many threads are just recycled threads. It seems that every other day there is a question comparing a DM4/5 to a timmy or similar. I think gun comparisons could have there own small forum would work out nicely. Just a thread where people can ask those questions like "which one is the better deal and what not" Too much of the paintball talk is taken up by these threads that noone else seems to care about it. I think things would be a lot nicer if the forum was constructed much differenly. This site used to be more helpful than it seems to be now.

[SpecialBlend2786]

Well those rules are good. But this is a big forum so its harder to enforce. If they did rules like that, they would probly need more mods. And that means haveing to have the Paintball Newb as one :) .

yeah, i realize that AO is slightly bigger (by slightly i mean much bigger), but I think implementing some of those rules would cut down on the clutter that we see in many of the forums.

[ScatterPlot]

A karma system IMO would be cool. Give everyone some initial karma based maybe on join date if you can, then have people be able to get more karma for posting up posts. The length of posts determines how much karma you get. Make it like a small exponential thing; for most posts people get like a range of .00 to 1.5 karma, then for real long posts people get something like 5-7 or something. Cause for the most part, long posts are good. There aren't many real long posts that are just worthless. This way, people who post a lot don't get all the rewards, and the people who just post good informative posts will get a nice reward. Then make the rest of the karma be donateable; instead of giving people karma they must simply donate some of theirs to the person recieving. That would keep people from just making 2 dummy accounts and "applauding" himself all the time. So people who post good things, like help in the tech forum or whatever, get credit for some long posts, then (if the needy person is any account) they will recieve some donated karma. Kinda like "AO dollars".

The only problem there is people could start getting real stingy with their karma, and donating like 1 AO dollar (:D) for a real good and helpful or funny post or something.

One way to get rid of this would maybe to be able to keep track of "given" AO dollars. Like "AO spirit" or something fancy like that. This might be like a hidden stat, visible like in profiles or something but not something that everyone can see. Then use this number to determine maybe a multiplier for how much a person gets per post. So for example, if person A is mister stingy with his posts, he might have a multiplier of only 1 and get say 5 karma for a post 50 characters long. Then there's person B, who gives out a lot of karma, so for his post of 50 characters he might get say 10 karma, since he has a higher multiplier.

But that might be too hard. I dunno. Whatever. It would be cool.

[mcdkid]

What actions can we promote that will bring back the old AO?




kill of all the new members?

no?...ok

but i like the way www.Paintball-forum.com has rep points.

[Gr0dy]

Thats actually a great idea. A kind of feedback system. If you have crappy feedback/karma you souldn't be allowed to b/s/t untill your karma goes up
but what about the "poor" people, or if you havent bought enough stuff to even make a feed back thread? What would those people do, then they would never have a chance to get a good feedback.

[TheDuelist]

I'm sorry but you have to take the good with the bad. As long as AO has an open join policy I really don't see a good way to regulate the stupidity your wanting to filter out. There are those out there who lurk and don't really care to post and others who post on every thread thats started. Mods have enough to worry about without hearing someone whining about how someone gave them bad karma or how come they can't post somewhere because they don't have enough. How much more work do you guys want?

Just like everything else AO is suffering some growing pains. Yeah its nice to sit around and say "remember when?" Why can't we take the energy spent on looking in the past and direct to the future? The forum is growing. Is that such a bad thing? We as a community can police the idiocy and still keep our beloved AO and in the process we are exposing more people to what we are here for.

[Lee]

i think banning the trouble makers is an option. karma will be abused, it also will encourage eliteism and classes of ao'ers.

a karma like system would personally turn me off to ao. problems should be addressed directly. eventually, they will go away.

[tony3]

I like the idea of an invite only forum. Just make it that if someone is being a very good member, making intelligent posts and following the rules he can get in.

[teufelhunden]

I like the idea of an invite only forum. Just make it that if someone is being a very good member, making intelligent posts and following the rules he can get in.


So, like, you'd never get in? :)

[tony3]

Reported.

[Tunaman]

but what about the "poor" people, or if you havent bought enough stuff to even make a feed back thread? What would those people do, then they would never have a chance to get a good feedback.Grody? Do you have a feedback thread yet? If not, start one up and i will surely post in it. You'll get there man...don't worry about a thing. Its all good around here. ;) :D :cheers:

[mcdkid]

take what you can get. i have problems getting a few people to post in my feedback thread. they say they will, and forget(it would be GOOD feedback btw). lol

[deathstalker]

What's "the old AO"?

There have always been annoying people.
There have always been troublemakers.
There have always been postwhores.
There have always been trolls.
There have always been knowledgeable people.
There have always been helpful people.
There have always been people complaining about one thing or another they don't like about the forums.
There have always been people who have had a beef with a mod.
There have always been people who whine and complain.

Be careful what you wish for.

AO has always had these (and many other) types of people and you'll never truly be rid of them. It's also not specific to AO; you'll see people like this on countless boards whether it's about paintball or breast cancer.

As for karma, I remember PBC having a good system for it (to prevent abuse), but it's been so long I can't remember the specific rules.

I think people should pay more attention to their options, especially the 'ignore user' feature. I've always thought it ironic, sad, and/or pathetic (depending on my mood) that my ignore list on AO has more users on it than all other forums on which I am a member combined.

[Blennidae]

I don't think an invite only forum, or a karma system is the answer. I think we as AO'ers have to police ourselves more. There has been a lot of challenging the mods authority lately, whining about the swear filter, and things like that. The rules are in place. The mods are there to enforce them. If you have a problem with a mods decision, contact them privately. If you do it publically, then everyone jumps on the bandwagon.

I have seen a newbie post, only to have someone flame him and his question. It would have been just as easy to calmly answer the question, or to remind him there is a search engine. And I don't mean an animated .gif pointing to the search button.

If everyone conducts themselves like mature people its easier to point the mods towards the ones who are messing things up.

If the mods hand down a 3 day ban to someone, they can either learn from it or come back and get the permaban. If it gets around that AO does not tolerate people being stupid, the stupid people don't bother to stay.

I know there are some posters on PbN that used to do nothing but cause problems here. They were either banned or left because they found it was not worth their trouble to try to prove how e-tough they were.

You post whores (and you know who you are) maybe think twice before posting something flippant. If it doesn't really add to the thread, let it slide.

I think a quick refresher on the rules and the mods cracking down on them would probably work.

Just my opinion. :cheers:

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Invite only forum- As long as everyone can view it, it should work out. Only the invited people can actually post in it.

Good Karma points- It could work. Possibly limit it somehow by either a persons IP and/or their username. And then limit how much people can get. I could see a new member (i.e. 2 weeks old) using his other computer to give him karma points everyday. The result is alot of fake karma.

[nastymag]

i say a couple of more mods...and clear cut rules is what is needed.

But we have to watch ...we dont want mods like some of the ones on PBN, that spam for HK and in general do not conduct themselves well

[magman007]

i think banning the trouble makers is an option. karma will be abused, it also will encourage eliteism and classes of ao'ers.

a karma like system would personally turn me off to ao. problems should be addressed directly. eventually, they will go away.


you see, the thing is, there already is an "elitism" on ao. and these people know who they are. they are the people that barely post any more, because ao has turned to crap. its been on a down slope since early 2k2 and has continued since. some people are tired of it, completely. people complain about things, and there is nothing mods can do. personally i am so tired of emagballer and dj that i want to get off ao for ever, but i wont because i have too many friends here.

its sad, when a few individuals can sour the milk. but if we tossed them, more would come back. its inevitable. if fight club was setup again, or something to that effect, or possibly a karma invite only forum, then the people that matter would be aloud to have our good, long, healthy inteligent conversations once again. and the others, well they could go around spewing the crap they seem to do now. people could obviously earn their way in, but it would take hard work.

most people want something more and more, especially if they cant have it. when fight club came around, i desired to be in, but sat back, and tried to prove my self worthy, i have a feeling that through good posts, and followings of the rules, i could have made it in, but it just turned to crap when everyone was allowed in. fc=Deepblue now btw.

do you understand?

[Automaggot68]

good idea :clap:


I also say replace the post count with your karma points. Which would now become AO's status symbol. As miscue said before, it all relies on AO's trust that they'll use this, and not abuse it. Maybe have one secret forum for certain karma level, not like 2 or 3. One, and only one if any.


I dont think there should be a status system at all, to be honest.
On the note of post count, what will that change? Postwhores are still postwhores.

[Automaggot68]

I don't think an invite only forum, or a karma system is the answer. I think we as AO'ers have to police ourselves more. There has been a lot of challenging the mods authority lately, whining about the swear filter, and things like that. The rules are in place. The mods are there to enforce them. If you have a problem with a mods decision, contact them privately. If you do it publically, then everyone jumps on the bandwagon.

I have seen a newbie post, only to have someone flame him and his question. It would have been just as easy to calmly answer the question, or to remind him there is a search engine. And I don't mean an animated .gif pointing to the search button.

If everyone conducts themselves like mature people its easier to point the mods towards the ones who are messing things up.

If the mods hand down a 3 day ban to someone, they can either learn from it or come back and get the permaban. If it gets around that AO does not tolerate people being stupid, the stupid people don't bother to stay.

I know there are some posters on PbN that used to do nothing but cause problems here. They were either banned or left because they found it was not worth their trouble to try to prove how e-tough they were.

You post whores (and you know who you are) maybe think twice before posting something flippant. If it doesn't really add to the thread, let it slide.

I think a quick refresher on the rules and the mods cracking down on them would probably work.

Just my opinion. :cheers:



Best post so far. (Sorry I donthave anything else to add but uh....KARMA POINTS FOR YOU!)

[Major Ho]

What about the people who lurk? I know there are plenty out there who just come to read. Most of the time I try to be like that. And I know several others who also come to just to read and catch up. Are they denied access to the more privledged forums where the GOOD information is posted?

[Miscue]

What about the people who lurk? I know there are plenty out there who just come to read. Most of the time I try to be like that. And I know several others who also come to just to read and catch up. Are they denied access to the more privledged forums where the GOOD information is posted?

If it can be done... it would make sense to limit the ability to post... not to read.

[REDRT]

Karma sounds stupid to me. I think access to the different forums by everyone is essential in promoting this site. Mags lets face it are not too popular in the paintball world and if someone new isn't allowed to be here or access all of the great infomation here they may go elsewhere to find out, only the be misinformed or forget mags all together. Also to the rest of us already here this could lead to fighting. Karma stinks...

[spantol]

I share this concern. I contribute when I can, but lately it's been hard enough just finding the time to check in and catch up.

It cuts both ways, I suppose; on the one hand, the lack of participation means that I don't add much, but on the other, I tend to keep my yap shut when I know I'm out of my element, a virtue far too rare these days. As a result, I think that I, and those in similar situations, have decent signal to noise ratios going, and a limited-access forum would unduly penalize us by cutting us off from the community.


What about the people who lurk? I know there are plenty out there who just come to read. Most of the time I try to be like that. And I know several others who also come to just to read and catch up. Are they denied access to the more privledged forums where the GOOD information is posted?

[chairman_mao]

I think those are strong rules. Too many threads are just recycled threads. It seems that every other day there is a question comparing a DM4/5 to a timmy or similar. I think gun comparisons could have there own small forum would work out nicely. Just a thread where people can ask those questions like "which one is the better deal and what not" Too much of the paintball talk is taken up by these threads that noone else seems to care about it. I think things would be a lot nicer if the forum was constructed much differenly. This site used to be more helpful than it seems to be now.

I agree with this post whole heartedly. Also there seems to be a HUGE increase in the "I got a new Gun look at it" Posts. I can ubderstand being happy/proud about your new wonderful marker but there are already several picture threads, EVERYONE doesn't need their own. Between these and the "what should I buy", "Is this a good deal" threads the Paintball talk tforum is clogged with posts. That's just my opinion

[Evil Bob]

Even the best rules in the world are nothing if they're not being actively enforced. The bottom line is it comes down to the enforcement delay and how long it takes a mod to respond when an infraction is identified.

I would suggest adding another 3-4 mods from different time zones to help even out the coverage, 24/7 enforcement is a must.

-Evil Bob

[cphilip]

I just want the voices in my head to stop saying "ban them all".... :argh:

[Thordic]

Over on my forums theres an option I don't personally use really but it could work.

Each user has a "warning" meter. Mods can raise or lower the warning meter for acts of stupidity / intelligence. If someone makes a useless / dumb / flame post that doesn't quite warrant a ban, they get warned.

If someone with a warning level posts a particularly good post and the mods notice, they can bring that users warning level down a notch.

Warnings decrease over time.

At a certain point (5, 10 warnings, whatever) the user gets a 3-day ban.

This way mods wouldn't have to pay attention to each person who is being a retard. You see a retard, you warn him. If he acts like a retard enough and enough mods see it, he'll get banned.

It has enormous potential to curb idiocy all over AO. Only mods can see warning levels (and users can see their own).

Also, when you warn someone, you have to type a reason why. So there will be a record of why the person got their warnings.

[FSU_Paintball]

Karma system determining your forum access is a good idea. When the change happens though, we should have current members set near the borderline so they can access the forums they've been able to see before.

(not that it would be a great help for me... I find myself being short with more people than usual on this forum for some reason. My karma would probably drop through the floor.)

[gibby]

Not reading through all that but I've also posted on another forum that uses the Karma system. Believe me, as much as it sounds like a good idea it always turns out that people will start to abuse the system and start handing out negative karma every time they disagree with a person. Next thing you know, people are too concerned with their Karma and start a fuss over it. If it isn't post counts, it'll be Karma points that will start all the commotion.

[-=Squid=-]

Thordics warning idea seems to be pretty solid, assuming AO supports a feature like that.

A few extra mods in each forum would help a lot, too.

[shartley]

Not reading through all that but I've also posted on another forum that uses the Karma system. Believe me, as much as it sounds like a good idea it always turns out that people will start to abuse the system and start handing out negative karma every time they disagree with a person. Next thing you know, people are too concerned with their Karma and start a fuss over it. If it isn't post counts, it'll be Karma points that will start all the commotion.
I agree. And there is simply too much room for abuse overall. It will become a super clique (more than is already here with some small but very vocal AO groups) that is too easy to let get out of control.

And no offense to the moderators, they are simply not the ones to decide who should be in a group or not. Their only function is to keep things on the forums in line with the stated rules. And honestly, as pointed out, if this was done in a timely and impartial manner much of the problems would go away. But we see that when rules are enforced, that too causes “issues” with some folks. So you will never win, someone will always be complaining about something. You just have to choose whether what they are complaining about is a valid issue for the forums or not.

This would of course cause some moderators to enforce rules on their friends and whether they agree with their friends or not.

Now I know some moderators will argue that this has been done, but I say it has been done in a token manner only, and sporadic at best. And there is a subculture on AO (which involve at least one moderator, probably more) which raises its head from time to time and seems to just stir up problems. And to me it seems the reason for this is JUST to stir up problems and nothing more. But folks seem to act like they don’t see it, or don’t know it is happening. And I will tell you that this is PART of the reason AO has lost credibility and the standing it once had.

If a Karma system is adopted for AO or any part of AO, I only see it getting worse. It will cause more problems than some think it will solve.

[joez]

I dont really like the idea. Its seems like a good idea at first, but all it is going to do is mask a deeper problem. Like putting a butterfly bandaid on an amputated leg. Having special forums is only going to make it worse. Those that say you can limit karma ratings, so are you going to make it so new people cant give Karma to make up for the handfull that will abuse the system? What about those of us that dont frequent the boards as much as they used to? Im not arround anymore because of the atmosphere now, its getting lame. I pop in only to check on AO IL events, and on what i have for sale anymore. The post whoring is out of control, people just plain need to be banned. To me its slowly turning the way of PBN.

Novel concept, but it will not solve the problem. The mods need to tighten up even more IMHO.

[shartley]

first off i want to say that i'm i a newb, that being said i apologize for the fact that i have done some of the things that cause the complaints (mostly reposts). and will no longer do such things. with that out of the way...



i'm sure that Thoric meant this but i think that each user should be able to see they're own warning level, and also be able to know why they recieved it. instead of just banning the newbs try to turn them into better AOer's!
Correct me if I am wrong Mods…. But I don’t think ANYONE simply gets banned without a warning or knowing why they were banned. In fact, I believe that folks GET warnings when they break the rules, then if they continue they get a temp ban and then a permaban.

The RULES are clear. The RULES are easy to read and understand. The RULES are easy to follow.

And when people make an account here they have to read the rules first and agree to abide by them.. or they simply ignore the rules and click the box and drive on…. Either way, if they break the rules at that point it is their own fault.

The big problem is that too many people want to make excuses for people and pass the blame on others for their actions.

[Miscue]

I dont really like the idea. Its seems like a good idea at first, but all it is going to do is mask a deeper problem. Like putting a butterfly bandaid on an amputated leg. Having special forums is only going to make it worse. Those that say you can limit karma ratings, so are you going to make it so new people cant give Karma to make up for the handfull that will abuse the system? What about those of us that dont frequent the boards as much as they used to? Im not arround anymore because of the atmosphere now, its getting lame. I pop in only to check on AO IL events, and on what i have for sale anymore. The post whoring is out of control, people just plain need to be banned. To me its slowly turning the way of PBN.

Novel concept, but it will not solve the problem. The mods need to tighten up even more IMHO.

The rules prevent guys like me from going on a ban bonanza. I can think of several people that would disappear, if I was given the dictator hat for the day. And, it would continue until the demons of stupidity were fully exorcized.

But the rules and various people like to cater towards being pleasant, rather than getting the job done and fixing the problem. AO going to crap > creating a stir by lopping heads.

People have to basically post porn, threaten to inflict harm, go on a cussing rampage, etc. just to get permanently banned. I don't bother banning people anymore, they just come back and repeat stuff - it is a waste of time to give temporary bans. Permanent bans are released by simply complaining about it and finding one of the "easy" mods or admins.

Or... spam the boards with advertisements... that's far worse than being a complete asshat. :rolleyes:

[rkjunior303]

The rules prevent guys like me from going on a ban bonanza. I can think of several people that would disappear, if I was given the dictator hat for the day. And, it would continue until the demons of stupidity were fully exorcized.

But the rules and various people like to cater towards being pleasant, rather than getting the job done and fixing the problem. AO going to crap > creating a stir by lopping heads.


lol

"THE POWER OF THE MOD COMPELLS YOU!! THE POWER OF THE MOD COMPELLS YOU!!"

[tdogreb]

You have to understand that different things are important to different folks.To the kid who's been bugging his dad for a new gun,getting that gun is his world and he wants to show it off. To some of us, how to improve our mags tops the list. To others it's the politics of the game. Also age makes a big difference in priorities. Younger members may be more interested in the latest equipment ,where as older members might be more interested in developing new equipment. The thing is, that each has it's place and needs a place here on AO. I look at threads that interest me, and skip over ones that don't. As for flamers the mods should deal with them. So should there be a special forum for the AO elite? Sure, why not? As long as I got to read them I would be happy.


Oh, by the way ,may be getting new mag soon, look for "see my new toy" post. LOL

[PBX Ronin 23]

lol

"THE POWER OF THE MOD COMPELLS YOU!! THE POWER OF THE MOD COMPELLS YOU!!"
AO has always been the place for me where you can go and discuss "headier" subjects and get heady responses either for or against the subject at hand.

In some ways I feel your pain Miscue.

There are also way too many "check out my gun that I just got, it really is no different than 500 other guns out there but check it out anyway." This to me makes AO very PBNish. Come up with something unique like UThomas' Nasty Typhoon or something that works that you've made in your basement. It doesn't matter. But haven't you guys had enough of the same thing over and over again?

Part and parcel of the comraderie that arises from being part of the AO community is that we are indeed a headier cast of characters than most of the frequenters of other forums out there.....and quite frankly, we all know it. You can see this in our collective faces during our get-togethers when someone blatantly mentions something that we all know is incorrect.

Does this sound snobish? Maybe so. But as you have also seen in the past, AO'ers are also the very first ones to jump in and help those who are in need.

Let's keep and promote the mystique. Let AO be the place where new and incredible ideas are posted first. Let it be the forum for intelligent discourse. Let it be what it once was and should always be.

[Miscue]

AO has always been the place for me where you can go and discuss "headier" subjects and get heady responses either for or against the subject at hand.

In some ways I feel your pain Miscue.

There are also way too many "check out my gun that I just got, it really is no different that 500 other guns out there but check it out anyway." This to me makes AO very PBNish. Come up with something unique like UThomas' Nasty Typhoon or something that works that you've made in your basement. It doesn't matter. But haven't you guys had enough of the same thing over and over again?

Part and parcel of the comraderie that arises from being part of the AO community is that we are indeed a headier cast of characters than most of the frequenters of other forums out there.....and quite frankly, we all know it. You can see this in our collective faces during our get-togethers when someone blatantly mentions something that we all know is incorrect.

Does this sound snobish? Maybe so. But as you have also seen in the past, AO'ers are also the very first ones to jump in and help those who are in need.

Let's keep and promote the mystique. Let AO be the place where new and incredible ideas are posted first. Let it be the forum for intelligent discourse. Let it be what it once was and should always be.

I agree. I see less of a distinction between AO and PBN now... it's gone to stupidville. AO is still better, but is declining.

I'm not talking about the noobs... it is as important to have them around as the vets. I'm talking about those who just post worthless stuff time after time. And there are many that are just outright obnoxious... but there isn't a rule that says you can't be if you don't cross the line. Some take full advantage of that and are well aware of what they can get away with.

[teufelhunden]

Well, maybe it's time to take a Democrat's intepretation of the constitution and act in the spirit of the law ;)

[Thordic]

Thordics warning idea seems to be pretty solid, assuming AO supports a feature like that.

Yeah that I don't know. I use Invision Power Board, not vBullitin. Same concept, but different software. Maybe I'll look into it later for the mods to see if there is a plugin.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Well, maybe it's time to take a Democrat's intepretation of the constitution and act in the spirit of the law ;)Please elaborate.

[Miscue]

#1 and only way:

Make me mod and let me ban all the stupid people...

I'm beginning to think something like this is the best approach. :D

[Miscue]

Over on my forums theres an option I don't personally use really but it could work.

Each user has a "warning" meter. Mods can raise or lower the warning meter for acts of stupidity / intelligence. If someone makes a useless / dumb / flame post that doesn't quite warrant a ban, they get warned.

If someone with a warning level posts a particularly good post and the mods notice, they can bring that users warning level down a notch.

Warnings decrease over time.

At a certain point (5, 10 warnings, whatever) the user gets a 3-day ban.

This way mods wouldn't have to pay attention to each person who is being a retard. You see a retard, you warn him. If he acts like a retard enough and enough mods see it, he'll get banned.

It has enormous potential to curb idiocy all over AO. Only mods can see warning levels (and users can see their own).

Also, when you warn someone, you have to type a reason why. So there will be a record of why the person got their warnings.

Hurm... I like this a lot - for now. :p Find that plug-in!

[PBX Ronin 23]

How's about a quick IQ test and the results will dictate exactly when, where and how you can post........ :rofl:

Must submit an essay before you are given rights to start a thread....... ;)

Maybe, just maybe, this will get AO back to what it once was. :cheers:

Disclaimer: This intended to be a joke and not an actual suggestion.

[Miscue]

How's about a quick IQ test and the results will dictate exactly when, where and how you can post........ :rofl:

Must submit an essay before you are given rights to start a thread....... ;)

Maybe, just maybe, this will get AO back to what it once was. :cheers:

Disclaimer: This intended to be a joke and not an actual suggestion.

:dance: :hail: :bounce: :rofl: :clap: :headbang: :cheers:

[Magaman]

Over on my forums theres an option I don't personally use really but it could work.

Each user has a "warning" meter. Mods can raise or lower the warning meter for acts of stupidity / intelligence. If someone makes a useless / dumb / flame post that doesn't quite warrant a ban, they get warned.

If someone with a warning level posts a particularly good post and the mods notice, they can bring that users warning level down a notch.

Warnings decrease over time.

At a certain point (5, 10 warnings, whatever) the user gets a 3-day ban.

This way mods wouldn't have to pay attention to each person who is being a retard. You see a retard, you warn him. If he acts like a retard enough and enough mods see it, he'll get banned.

It has enormous potential to curb idiocy all over AO. Only mods can see warning levels (and users can see their own).

Also, when you warn someone, you have to type a reason why. So there will be a record of why the person got their warnings.

I think this Idea will work the best. If I was a user breaking the rules and my warning level was rising, I'd think twice before posting any more crap... I'm sure that the AO bad apples would look at it the same way.

As for the other ideas, they will only benefit the Popular or Well known members.

I know I have personally helped out many AOers when they needed it. I've spent hours helping members trouble shout problems, (including non-paintball) on AIM Chat and PMing back and forth. I've even paid out of my own pocket to help people get what they needed/wanted... Out of everyone I've helped, non have said a word publically in my favor about the things I've done for them. Nor do I want anyone to. That’s what being a good member of AO is all about.

There are those of us that are proud to be a member of AO. Sure I'm not an old timer, that doesn't mean that I don't help out the new guys when they have a question (even stupid ones).

The problem with some of the Old Timers and Vets here is they have forgotten about how to help the fellow AOers out. They are too busy trying to ack all Knowledgeable and All-Powerful. The new guys and the young kids are just wasting your time as far as some of you guys are concerned.

Some of you have been here for soooo long that you have forgotten why people come to forums, to get (ALL) of there questions answered. Allot of these people are new to computers or even suck at using them, so there is a good chance they won't understand the concept of how to use the search features... They best thing “We” as Members can do for these people is, “Politely” let them know of they are breaking a rule and see if there is anything that “You” can do to help them. If “You” have the time to flame someone new for messing up your perfect world, then “You” should have enough time to give them a hand and see if you can’t better help them than shame them. Otherwise your just a Troll as far as I can tell and your giving AO a bad name as far as the new members are concerned. :cheers:

[Miscue]

I think this Idea will work the best. If I was a user breaking the rules and my warning level was rising, I'd think twice before posting any more crap... I'm sure that the AO bad apples would look at it the same way.


That's the problem... the worst offenders don't 'think'. You would fix your act, but these fools will not. That's the root of it! They are professional trolls.

[Thordic]

That's the problem... the worst offenders don't 'think'. You would fix your act, but these fools will not. That's the root of it! They are professional trolls.

Then they would be perpertually banned as the mods continued to warn them. Problem solved.

[Magaman]

That's the problem... the worst offenders don't 'think'. You would fix your act, but these fools will not. That's the root of it! They are professional trolls.

But it would work better for a permanent ban. If they went thru 2 warning level bans then they obviously are breaking the rules enough that they should be banned permanently. ;)

As stated up above, the rules for permanent bans really don't apply to some of the stuff the bad apples dish out. If there was a warning level system in place that only the mods could see and the Individule user could see, the mods could better judge the permanent bans.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Players relatively new to the sport should be given a little bit of a leeway. If they have a legitemate question, then perhaps it should be politely answered by the more experienced members of AO.

Its the dumb threads that showcases the 1 in 500 guns that's the bane of AO's existence. Is there really a polite way of saying, "sorry bud but you gun isn't all that impressive and I don't care if you've spent the entire summer saving for it."

Perhaps if AO was to establish more strict posting parameters, then these type of things wouldn't happen so often. Maybe creating a permanently stickied picture thread will give these posters a venue to showcase their pride and joy.......just some random thoughts.

[Lohman446]

What I like, what I don't like

Like
Thordic's idea. I understand that I push the line quite often, I know (at least I think I know) where that line is and flirt with it. Seldom do I do anything that is really ban worthy in and amongst itself, but well... I'm sure I could accumulate warnings. Granted I try to be a productive part of AO, but I know some of the things I do are just to get reaction :D . Thats how I am... I pay the cost of my actions when I misjudge... but I like to push the edge

A stickied check out my marker thread, like the hot chick thread... why do I have to see 72 different check out my gun threads on the first page

Dislike
A private forum - why not just make a new forum and invite the people you want to it? A private forum will hurt AO as a whole, especially new recruitment to replace those who go away/post less.

A karma system - great in theory I think it goes south in practice. Too much room for abuse, unless the mods are the only ones able to give out Karma? A spin off of Thordics idea in a way.

What I think I should say
I think that you are all remembering an idealized AO that likely never existed to what you remember. Was it better or worse, perhaps, but you I don't think that memories are always good at recalling the mediocre or bad. Your remembering the high points, what it used to be in your mind, I don't think your remembering what it truly was.

[PBX Ronin 23]

What I think I should say
I think that you are all remembering an idealized AO that likely never existed to what you remember. Was it better or worse, perhaps, but you I don't think that memories are always good at recalling the mediocre or bad. Your remembering the high points, what it used to be in your mind, I don't think your remembering what it truly was.

It's the greatly diminishing level of headier discussions that's replaced by my "Gat is Agg"-type discourse that's perhaps the most dissapointing.

Do people idealize. Yes they do. But if the reality is like what I've stated in the paragraph above, then I can understand the frustration of those who see AO as an Oasis in the PB desert. It's like constantly going back to that oasis and watching the leaves on the palm trees go brown and the water level gets lower and lower.

[Lohman446]

PS - can we please ban the whiney types who whine that the mods removed there sig. that violated rules. I mean I see sigs that are a constant complaint about mods forcing them to follow the rules.

You broke a rule, the mod put you in conformance... next time don't break it. What you lost (your sig) was your own fault for nto having backed up somewhere else if it took so much effort. Quit whining about mods enforcing rules... I think public whining about mod actions should be bannable. :D You broke a rule, apologize, move on, quit whining.

[hitech]

I guess I look at thing an entirely different way. I don’t care about the "useless" posts. I either don't read the tread in the first place, so skim past the "useless" posts in threads I wish to read. And I have no one on my ignore list. The "problem" I have with AO at the moment is the lack of anything interesting going on. And lately, there have been some interesting discussions. So, for me, AO has been better the last few days. :D

The one thing that does bother me is people complaining about the mods. They just don't know how good we have it. They may not be perfect (he who is cast the first stone), but AO is a MUCH better place because of their UNPAID hard work. You don't have to agree with the mods decisions, but you do have to live with them. At some point in life everyone has to deal with someone else's decision that they don't agree with. Deal with it and move on. You'll find it much easier than getting worked up about it... ;)

My 2 ½ cents worth.

:cheers:

[paintballrulzs]

I think one of the real main differences between the current AO and the old AO is the friendly forum (yes i am guilty too). It seems that more posts are posted in there than any other forum (except markers for sale). The forum needs to go back to when the main concern was paintball. It seems that this place is mostly to trade equipment and the occasionally random off topic discussion.

[Miscue]

Quit whining about mods enforcing rules... I think public whining about mod actions should be bannable. :D You broke a rule, apologize, move on, quit whining.

!!! If we had a karma system, that would earn you 2000 points. :p

[rpm07]

I dont think AO will ever be the same as it was. You have to look back the reason AO was good it the old days is because there was new products to talk about. We had the Super bolt. Intelli Frame, Lv10 Bolt, 4500 Flatline XMag and ULE Bodies, We had chat parties, when was the last one of those. Team Blackcell hosted the first AO day in NJ, then almost every state did 1. That is what made AO. When new products were coming out people had something to talk about. Or planning AO days. It was nice to come on and talk about the AGD teams and how the were doing, No more teams nothing to talk about. No more new products nothing to talk about. So I dont see AO ever being what it was.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

[QUOTE=Thordic] Each user has a "warning" meter. Mods can raise or lower the warning meter for acts of stupidity / intelligence. If someone makes a useless / dumb / flame post that doesn't quite warrant a ban, they get warned.

If someone with a warning level posts a particularly good post and the mods notice, they can bring that users warning level down a notch.
[QUOTE]
At Force of Nature we use the same thing. I have nboticed that after members get warned to say 10% they either stop posting useless stuff, or leave the site. One of the problems with the Karma system is it would require more mods.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Another thing that perhaps we ought to consider is a "new" role/position and integral to AO like the Mods. What if you actually had a cadre of people who will intentionally start a heady hypothetical thread. To keep the intellectual juices of AO flowing maybe sometimes you need a spark here and there.

[skipdogg]

Is there something wrong with AO? I havn't noticed a change in the last 4 years except more people are here now.

[shartley]

Another thing that perhaps we ought to consider is a "new" role/position and integral to AO like the Mods. What if you actually had a cadre of people who will intentionally start a heady hypothetical thread. To keep the intellectual juices of AO flowing maybe sometimes you need a spark here and there.
This was actually done in the “old AO” (for lack of a better way to put it). But unfortunately some folks didn’t understand what was going on and assigned meanings and “personalities” to things/people who did not really deserve it. There were posts and threads created/made for the purpose of creating conversation and discussions. And AO thrived because of it.

[PBX Ronin 23]

I dont think AO will ever be the same as it was. You have to look back the reason AO was good it the old days is because there was new products to talk about. We had the Super bolt. Intelli Frame, Lv10 Bolt, 4500 Flatline XMag and ULE Bodies, We had chat parties, when was the last one of those. Team Blackcell hosted the first AO day in NJ, then almost every state did 1. That is what made AO. When new products were coming out people had something to talk about. Or planning AO days. It was nice to come on and talk about the AGD teams and how the were doing, No more teams nothing to talk about. No more new products nothing to talk about. So I dont see AO ever being what it was.
The "old" (pre AGD purchase) was a place for the heady. The topics of conversation didn't have to be just about AGD products or teams.

There's a myriad of thought provoking topics out there in the paintball world. I think more so now than ever. From the legal issues to new technology, there's always good fodder for an intellectually contentious discourse.

The problem isn't the lack of noteworthy subjects to discuss. The problem is AO is quickly becoming just "another" forum where you showcase you "GAT". Sad but true. Is AO and elitist clique. No. But it also most certainly need not be a haven for the uninformed.


This was actually done in the “old AO” (for lack of a better way to put it). But unfortunately some folks didn’t understand what was going on and assigned meanings and “personalities” to things/people who did not really deserve it. There were posts and threads created/made for the purpose of creating conversation and discussions. And AO thrived because of it.
I know what you mean Sam. I wish sometimes that it was just like the way it used to be.

[Magaman]

Maybe AO just needs to be cleaned up a bit.

Set up a few new Forums like, New Paintball Setup, Way Off Topic Stuff, Um Help Please, I'm New, Don't Know the Rules, Etc.

There also needs to be a Political Discussion Forum. That way you can be warned before you enter, “you might see heated topics.” It can be a place to discuss anything that is argumentable.

Things like this will help keep certain Forums Clean. Then all we need to do is setup something like the Warning level system and just have Mods expect to have to move a thread to the correct forum from time to time. People do make mistakes, that’s why we have Mods...

[ScatterPlot]

Now that you've brought it up that warning thing sounds pretty good. I also like the notion of a read-only public forum, where you can only post when invited. On top of that, another forum could be added that is accessible to the invited people, but is used maybe only to discuss who to invite and things that are unnecessary for non-invite people to get into. That would require some modding to keep unworthy topics in the one that was read only, but if it's an invite only one then the people there would probably be good about putting things where they should go, not to mention being able to understand why a mod does what he does. The warning thing could work very well I think. It could also help determine who gets in the invite-only forum.

Please note that the second invite only no outside access forum would be not so that those people could be special or anything, just to make it easy to discuss who would be invited or something.

And while I respect all the people who save up for a long time to get their guns and all, and don't leech off others for their stuff, but nothing personal we don't want to see your gun. It looks just like all the other guns that come out. Every time Rogue sells a gun we see it in a new thread. They all look good, but we don't need a new thread notifying us that a new gun has been sold. If it just got annoed a cool new color, or if you homemade something, or it's something unusual then it deserves a new thread. Not dissing mags, but I don't want to see every new one that gets out there. Maybe in a pics thread, but not in it's own thread.

[Glickman]

Why Should we geet rid of the post count I dont see any reason to be rid of it. I like the way AO is as a whole. It is simple to use and you get see everyone here and the post counter just goes to show the amount of time you spend on AO.

time spent on AO doesnt = time spent positively contributing



i say out with the counter

[PBX Ronin 23]

I second that motion!

[ScatterPlot]

As much as I've liked watching my post count rise (albeit slowly) over the few years I've been here, far too many times it is a reflection of who has too much spare time on their hands, rather than who has the most participation with AO.

Don't get me wrong- I've done my share of whoring, but a lack of counters would reduce the pressure on people to whore away all the time to feel "part of AO".

[Magaman]

If Tom still owned ADG, I'd say we need to keep the post count so he could prove that he did care about his customers, but now that he doesn't have customers anymore, I don't see any problem with tossing the Post Count...

I still think we need a Political Forum, that way people wont feel like Paintball or AO is falling every time they look at the Paintball Talk Boards... Also it will give the Ranters a place to post without upsetting the balance of AO, which is part of the problem we are having.

We just need some more Forums to help catagorize the different types of posts. Clean things up.

“I used to have 2 File Drawers and a pile of Crap on my desk. I now have 2 File Cabinets and a clean desk.”

[PBX Ronin 23]

Political Forum. Hmmmm.

When you say 'political' do you mean discussions such as "why Company A is wrong for pursuing it's legal rights" or "Person B is a poo poo head who likes to do bad deeds"....?

A little clarity please. I'm in agreement with you for the most part.

[Big'n slo]

Hell, reverse the post count.
Everyone gets, say 500 posts a year.
Use them wisely

[Magaman]

Political Forum. Hmmmm.

When you say 'political' do you mean discussions such as "why Company A is wrong for pursuing it's legal rights" or "Person B is a poo poo head who likes to do bad deeds"....?

A little clarity please. I'm in agreement with you for the most part.

Anything worth arguing over... So yes that would be something you would see there...

Some days I don't want to see the arguments, but they pop up in the Paintball talk anyway. Sure they can be ignored, but after they bump to the top every time I refresh.... :rolleyes:

I just know the argument threads start most of the fights and the commotion. If they have there own Forum, they can at least be "Readers Beware"... You can expect to have ranting.

I just think it will be healthy for AO if these Threads were moved to there own Forum.

Same goes with the Look at my new stuff/gun Threads... They are cluttering up the Paintball Talk thread. I do like seeing what other people have, so I don't think it should be a Rule that people cant post these threads. I do think they need there Own Forum Topic though...

[Magaman]

Hell, reverse the post count.
Everyone gets, say 500 posts a year.
Use them wisely

That is a good idea except it would screw the Dealers and most of the People that do try to help out where they can.

[Gabriel]

Its the dumb threads that showcases the 1 in 500 guns that's the bane of AO's existence. Is there really a polite way of saying, "sorry bud but you gun isn't all that impressive and I don't care if you've spent the entire summer saving for it."

Perhaps if AO was to establish more strict posting parameters, then these type of things wouldn't happen so often. Maybe creating a permanently stickied picture thread will give these posters a venue to showcase their pride and joy.......just some random thoughts.

One long pic thread wont work. If you dont want to see the "look at my new gun" thread, dont. No one forces you to, right?


I dont think AO will ever be the same as it was. You have to look back the reason AO was good it the old days is because there was new products to talk about. We had the Super bolt. Intelli Frame, Lv10 Bolt, 4500 Flatline XMag and ULE Bodies, We had chat parties, when was the last one of those. Team Blackcell hosted the first AO day in NJ, then almost every state did 1. That is what made AO. When new products were coming out people had something to talk about. Or planning AO days. It was nice to come on and talk about the AGD teams and how the were doing, No more teams nothing to talk about. No more new products nothing to talk about. So I dont see AO ever being what it was.

He hit it on the head. There aren't that many heady discussions becuase there are no longer that many heady topics. It could be all the other manufacturers, or it could be AGD. When was the last time any company put out a truly new product? I mean REVOLUTIONARY, and not just EVOLUTIONARY? It's been a looooong time.

oh, and away with the post count...

[shartley]

Go ahead and have your political and ‘touchy” forum section…. And AO will go farther downhill.

If folks can’t discuss issues while following the rules as they are, why add a special section bound to draw the types of posts that are against the rules anyways? I just don’t understand this mentality. And why should EVERY topic be open for discussion on a PAINTBALL forum anyways?

[teufelhunden]

Because it builds community.

[PBX Ronin 23]

One long pic thread wont work. If you dont want to see the "look at my new gun" thread, dont. No one forces you to, right?
To each his own. Perhaps the points made above where a separate section can be created as to not clutter Paintball Talk.


He hit it on the head. There aren't that many heady discussions becuase there are no longer that many heady topics. It could be all the other manufacturers, or it could be AGD. When was the last time any company put out a truly new product? I mean REVOLUTIONARY, and not just EVOLUTIONARY? It's been a looooong time.
I truly beg to differ.

Heady Topics: WDP and prognosticating their next move. K2 on the legal offensive. SP losing its legs. Prognosticating, pontificating and any other _____ing you can do for paintball. The limit is your capacity to reach out and find these topics.

New Product Worthy of a Heady Discussion: New SP guns without reprogrammable boards. What WGP's next electro move. The DM5 and the evolution of the spool valve. UThomas' Nasty Typhoon.......and that's not even mentioning the "a" new valving technology.

It is not the lack of worthy subjects but the relative lack of worthy posters vis-a-vis "check my new GAT" posters.

The point is the over-all Dumbing-down of AO and watching it evolve to something less than what it was before.

[CrimsonTurkey]

Wow,

normally my suggestions go completely unnoticed.

Anyway, what I was origionally suggesting was that the mods be able to hand out a higher rank, so to speak, to outstandging members of AO, which would allow them to post in a forum that was for the general populace, read only. I saw this during my short time at the tippmann forums and i noticed that it really worked, the irritating people were content with posting their mask made from cardboard and glass shards (im serious) in the normal forums, while the people that made it even somewhat worthwhile browsed all the forums.

We could even bring back fight club as a thread or two inside the insider's forum.

When I saw this it seemed to make the wise and intelligent members of the community role-models rather than feudal overlords. Plus stupid people couldn't get in in any way other than by being helpful.

Thank for listening AO (for once)

<Walks off singing>
"I've got AO on a string
sittin' on a rainbow"

[Magaman]

Go ahead and have your political and ‘touchy” forum section…. And AO will go farther downhill.

If folks can’t discuss issues while following the rules as they are, why add a special section bound to draw the types of posts that are against the rules anyways? I just don’t understand this mentality. And why should EVERY topic be open for discussion on a PAINTBALL forum anyways?

I don't want the Forum to break any rules... I just think those Topics need to have there own forums... If you goto a political forum, you can expect some people to stand strong with there argument and that can sometimes make people seem a bit unpleasant, but it would be expected to be seen in a political setting...

New Forums:

-Political Forum (Let’s talk Paintball Politics)
-Marker Forum (Show off you Bling)
-Don’t Stone Me (I’m new to this forum or new to Paintball, please help me)

This type of thing should help clean the boards and help to keep people happy

In no way should anyone be allowed a place to break the rules.

[Big'n slo]

In no way should anyone be allowed a place to break the rules.

"Theres a time and a place for everything, its called college"

Sorry couldn't resist. :D

The only problem I see with additional forums is increased policing for otherwise overworked non-professional (read unpaid) mods.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Crimson Turkey ----- People do see who is posting the substantive stuff.
Magaman----YOU DA MAN!

Political Forum (Fight Club): Can be potentially intriguing. May very well be the highest generator of traffic into the site. It could be bare knuckle for that matter. Rule though is do it INTELLIGENTLY and substantiate your position with FACTS. Debate your points but repect the others' position even if you disagree. Unreasonable posters can be banned from posting again on the thread by the Mods.

Marker Forum: Bring your Bling where people who care to see it can see it.

Don't Stone Me Cuz I'm A Newb Forum: Have a convenient place for those in need to get some help.

[GT]

More forums and more mods dont solve anything. I think we should have about 4 forums and maybe 4 mods...

[Magaman]

Wow,

normally my suggestions go completely unnoticed.

Anyway, what I was origionally suggesting was that the mods be able to hand out a higher rank, so to speak, to outstandging members of AO, which would allow them to post in a forum that was for the general populace, read only. I saw this during my short time at the tippmann forums and i noticed that it really worked, the irritating people were content with posting their mask made from cardboard and glass shards (im serious) in the normal forums, while the people that made it even somewhat worthwhile browsed all the forums.

We could even bring back fight club as a thread or two inside the insider's forum.

When I saw this it seemed to make the wise and intelligent members of the community role-models rather than feudal overlords. Plus stupid people couldn't get in in any way other than by being helpful.

Thank for listening AO (for once)

<Walks off singing>
"I've got AO on a string
sittin' on a rainbow"


I see what your getting at. Some of the other Forums I’m a member of run a system like this.

In order to run this correctly. You need to have a Council(Group of Mods) that vote in a group of Officers(Slightly below Mods). These Officers report to the mods whenever there is trouble. The Council then meets if there is a real problem or any special decision that needs to take place. The council then sets up a pole for all of the Officers to vote on.

The officers were allowed to view the Council Threads but not post in them. The officers also had there own Threads for running the forum that non of the Regular Members could read.

Also the Officers get to decide once a week if there are any outstanding members that should be recognized and possibly promoted to an officer.

Here is the system that you usually need to run a Forum this way:

-Council Members
-Officers
-Members
-Probation Members
-House Keepers

Here is how the whole system works in Reverse Order:

Probation Members:

These are the newest members and they can only post in a select few forums such as General Topics, For Sale, Newbee Help, Tech Help, etc.

Probies can’t become members until 5 or 10 Regular Members give them an Invite (The Number of Member Invites needed will Depend on the Councils Decision)

Member Invite go in a Probation Forum (Similar to Feedback) This is where the 5 or 10 Members post there Invite. Once the Probie has his proper amount of invites, he PM’s the House Keeper who will check to see that yes there are 5 or 10 invites and grant that probie Full Membership.

Members:

Members can post in any forum they wish but can’t see the Officer or Council Forums. As far as the Members can tell they don’t even exist.

If enough Officers decide that a Member is acting out of line, that Member will be Demoted back to Probation and wont be a Full Member until after a week waiting period from the day of demotion and will have to have at least 5 Re-Invites.

Officers:

Like stated above, they are first chosen by the Council Members. The Council members need to choose at least 10 - 20 Officers to start with. Then these officers can discuss amongst themselves if there are any other members that should be ranked officer. A member needs a minimum of 10 Officers Invite Votes. (Which are posted in a thread similar to the Probie Thread, but in the Officer forums) Only officers can place a Member in this Thread to vote on.

Same rules apply to Officers as do Members. If an officer is out of line and at least 10 officers feel that way. The officer will be demoted to a Member and will have to wait at least a week and will have to be Re-Invited by Officer Votes only.

Council Members:

Generally a minimum of 5 Council Members are needed to properly Run a forum with a Ranking System. It is up to the council to decide on how many Council members they wish to have.

You have to be an officer in good standing for a minimum of 1 month before you can be nominated to be a Council Member. Only Council Members can nominate Officers, unless there is a majority vote among all Officers of a nomination. The nominee can’t become a Council Member unless he/she/it has 100% of all Council Members votes. The reason for this is we don’t want fighting among our Council Members. If they cant all get along then someone has to go.

Demotion of a Council member needs at least 50% vote by all Council Members, in which they will be Demoted to an Officer Rank.

The only time the Council can Vote with less than 100% members voting is when one of the members has a notified absence, i.e. Taking the week off from the boards.

A council member Can’t be voted off without the chance to explain there side of the problem unless they are absent for a duration of 3 weeks without any notice of there absence.

The House Keeper:

This as a person our group of people that keep the Forums clean.

They will delete Threads that don’t belong anywhere or that are requested to be deleted by there original Topic Starter.

They will move threads that just simply need to be moved to the proper Forum.

The purpose of a House Keeper is to free up the Council Members (Mods) from dealing with thread cleaning issues. The Council Members will have more important matters to deal with.

I can Write Up the exact plan for running a “Forum Ranking System” if you guys want me to. I have helped write them before.

( You are asking yourself, “How does he know all this stuff?” A: I was a Council member on one of my other forums and we revised the way the Forum was run.)

[PBX Ronin 23]

Whoa Magaman! My college dissertation was shorter than that. :D

But point well taken.

[spantol]

Wow. That's a whole lot of bureaucracy.

Surely, judicious use of the Ignore button would be easier on everybody.

[rx2]

I haven't been posting since the beginning, but I have been lurking, so I do remember the old AO. Now, there have been many suggestions, and there are merits and flaws to each. However, it seems to me that there is no going back, or at least we really aren't in control of getting it back, so to speak. What I mean is that there was a certain dynamic to AO in the "good old days" (which may or may not have actually existed, although I won't argue this). As with anything, the dynamic was a complex situation, formed by a myriad of influences, such as the membership, the size, the products, et al. Things were a certain way because of a very complex set of circumstances that we will most likely never be able to recreate, simply because there are things that are out of our hands. Paintball in general has been getting younger, and faster, and there has been much change as far as products, and the companies producing them goes. People have found out about AO (perhaps, ironically, due to "Old AO" practices such as giving away free stuff) and more people will continue to do so. Veteran posters have moved on to other things, or have gotten tired of arguing and now just lurk. AGD has seen its founder retire, and its innovations slow.

Sure, there are things that you can do that will influence certain factors in such a way that they might resemble the way they were back then. By nature of the fact that we are actively trying to shape those things, though, I think that we are still creating an environment that is unlike the "old' AO. Sure, you can whittle down the membership, and you can institute new forums and point systems, but the old AO wasn't that way, so things would still be different. That is not to say that some of these things couldn't be employed in moderation, and thus help "get us through" until things naturally begin to shift directions. Of course, even then, there is no saying what direction things will naturally take.

It sort of reminds me of the stories of my mother and grandfather of Germany before WW2 - the propaganda machine painted a shiny picture of the way Germany used to be, and tried bringing back all of the old pagan rituals and culture. It didn't work. It is the same with a lot of small towns - they create an almost artificial air by trying to keep with old traditions. They too fail, as things have changed too much with society as a whole for them to wall themselves off and keep things locked in time. Things change, and rarely do they ever return; rarely can they ever return by our efforts alone. Now that I think of it, I am also reminded of a band that hits it big, and alienates the long time fans, only to return to their roots. They are similar, but the magic is still gone, and the damage has been done. The times are just way too different for them to be the same. I don’t think, however, all is lost.

I think that one problem we face is idealization. No only do some people remember things slightly better than they were, but some people also think that it is a simple matter. If we are ever going to see a return to the old ways of AO, there are a lot of things beyond our control that have to change, as well. I think that things can, and will change on their own, as long as people don't abandon ship. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to stick to your guns, so to speak, and wait it out. Be firm and enforce the rules. Like I said, perhaps you could employ some suggestions to a certain extent. In the long run, I see one of two things happening. One scenario is that we give up, the influx of people continues (a certain percentage of which will be trouble makers and "unsavory" types), and this place turns into PBN or whatever you like. Or, interest in AO wanes, posts drop off, and transient members leave - all whilst things are being held under close scrutiny. Eventually, we are left with a group of dedicated AGD fans, and AO loyal who have been willing to stick it out. If we are lucky, things will rebound for AGD, and there will be new products to discuss. And, while we are discussing new products, we can get into the technical discussion that goes along with it. This is something I could see happening, although even then, it is still not certain. Also, the problem is, if things can get better, they can once again get worse. I think it truly is a cycle.

I hate to sound bleak, but I really think this is something that, if it will ever happen, will be slow, tedious, and largely dependent on things we can't control. But, if you want to ever see it happen, you have to work hard to make your posts count, and stick through the drama and turmoil. No matter what, though, unless you can change everything, and everyone, back to the exact way they were back then, things will still be different. They may be similar, and better than they are now, but don’t expect a miracle.

[GT]

Whoa Magaman! My college dissertation was shorter than that. :D

But point well taken.

what's your phd in?

[GT]

No only do some people remember things slightly better than they were, .


I think there is alot of that fueled by explosive product growth. people were excited to be here because there were products being made for thier guns. how many of those old members still on mags, which is the whole point of this site? AGD fails to innovate, AO fails....

[PBX Ronin 23]

I had to do an undergrad dissertation as part of the joint program with the London School of Eco.

RX2 is right and your response is also insightful.

BTW......RX2's post is definitely AO material and we are at a loss for not having more like him post on a regular basis.

[ScatterPlot]

All I gotta say is wow. This thread has been great. Gives me an idea for another one that I might try, see how it goes. If we had karma, I'd give you guys some :p

Anyway, I kinda like the beaurocracy thing mentioned above. I think it would help with control and all, and help keep things civil and all.

But some questions in it.
What are the roles of the Council and the Officers? Like specifically. Banning people? Maybe the Officers can temp ban, the council permaban. I dunno- you've obviously done it before successfully, what did they do? I see the Housekeepers more taking the place of mods, unless their job is ONLY to move posts around, and not to edit them in any way. Please explain, the whole thing sounds good.


So far though my favorite thing that IMO should be implemented with whatEVER else goes on is the warning system. Maybe like a dual layered thing- sorta like the three strikes law with felonies and all. Have one that ticks away for mods warning users and all, that gives way to bans, then when you hit "ban level" and get banned the second layer ticker goes off one. This second one might lower over time, but it would have to be a VERY slow dropping.

I dunno, that might be too hard to code. But I think something should be done. Not NEEDS to, Should be. I think that it will be OK without something, but would be better with something.

[ScatterPlot]

On another note- If a karma system is applied, one way to do it might be to have the user get karma per post that he puts up. I kinda mentioned this earlier but now I thought it through a little more. What if:

A user got karma for each post he makes. The length of the post determines how much karma he gets, based on like an exponential scale, like I said earlier. Very small posts=almost no karma, very large posts=tons of karma. An exponential thing or something maybe. And have the user have a rating that mods can adjust; if the mod sees a particularly usefyul person, he might give them some multiplier karma. That would mean that the person gets more karma per post than a regular person would get, and the exponential graph would increase in steepness. Like so the long posts now get a BUNCH of karma for them, cause they have been posting a bunch of them or something. That way people have no reason (well get rid of post counts) to sit there and post whore, and instead post something meaningful. Not only do they get goodies for posting good stuff, but if they post enough good stuff that the mods know they are not such a big karma whore then they get some goodies for the small posts too, and as you keep going up on the "# of big posts list" you get even more stuff per post.








Oh and mods- What kind of ideas do you want/are looking for? Do you want completely off the wall brainstorming ideas that could end up being hard to implement, or do you want like proven ideas that we could use without too much new coding trouble?

Or do you want us to just shut up and move on with our lives? :D

[shartley]

Rx2,
Great post. Now THAT is reminiscent of the Old AO. And that is what I miss.

[Gr0dy]

Grody? Do you have a feedback thread yet? If not, start one up and i will surely post in it. You'll get there man...don't worry about a thing. Its all good around here. ;) :D :cheers:
Thanks tuna, im going to make one once i buy a little more stuff.

[Magaman]

All I gotta say is wow. This thread has been great. Gives me an idea for another one that I might try, see how it goes. If we had karma, I'd give you guys some :p

Anyway, I kinda like the beaurocracy thing mentioned above. I think it would help with control and all, and help keep things civil and all.

But some questions in it.
What are the roles of the Council and the Officers? Like specifically. Banning people? Maybe the Officers can temp ban, the council permaban. I dunno- you've obviously done it before successfully, what did they do? I see the Housekeepers more taking the place of mods, unless their job is ONLY to move posts around, and not to edit them in any way. Please explain, the whole thing sounds good.


So far though my favorite thing that IMO should be implemented with whatEVER else goes on is the warning system. Maybe like a dual layered thing- sorta like the three strikes law with felonies and all. Have one that ticks away for mods warning users and all, that gives way to bans, then when you hit "ban level" and get banned the second layer ticker goes off one. This second one might lower over time, but it would have to be a VERY slow dropping.

I dunno, that might be too hard to code. But I think something should be done. Not NEEDS to, Should be. I think that it will be OK without something, but would be better with something.

The whole purpose of this system is to establish a few groups of individuals that respect and Represent the Forum and they all take part in keeping it clean. When you have as many members as AO does, you need more than just a handful of MOD’s to control the public.

The House Keepers only Clean house. There only Duty and power is to move threads to there correct locations and close anything that is out of line or requested buy the Topic Starter, or Mod’s to be deleted . There sole purpose is to do the Dirty Work so the Mods/Council can take a break.

The Council Members are the Mods. They are the only group that can Ban an individual Member or in this case it will be the Probation Members that Get Banned. i.e. If an officer is demoted to Member, that was there first warning. If they then get Demoted to a Probie, that is there Second warning. If they then cause further turmoil, then it is up to the Council to decide if they get a temporary ban or of they get the Permanent Ban.

Members and Probies receive less warnings, that’s why they are only Members and Probies, they haven’t proven to others that they can act peaceful and play nice with the rest of the Forum.

The Officers are basically the speakers for the people of the forum. They represent the Members and bring important details to the Council to decide on. They listen to the problems of the Members and vote on anything that might need changed. They also notify the Council whenever there is a disruption somewhere or when someone is out of line. The role of Officers are to take the weight off of the Moderators/Council Members. An Officer Can’t threaten the banning or Demoting of anyone. They can politely PM an Officer/Member/Probie, that they are being watched closely and need to straighten up, but they cant directly tell people in posts that they will be kicked etc. They can tell people to keep cool or simmer down.

You would be surprised at how many members, especially probies, keep there cool when they have more than one Officer chatting in a thread. Just like when a cop pulls up behind your car, you drive slow, careful, come to complete stops, and use your blinker often...

Edit: Here is an example of what Officers discuss in officers threads and this is what they present to the Council when enough Officers vote that it should be added/changed. Then the Council makes the final judgement and puts the new ruling into play.

--> http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=163922

I’m not saying AO should adopt this system, but they should do something different than having just a few Mod’s to control the thousands of members AO has...

There is one more Role I have yet to mention. It is the Overseer of the Forum. This person only looks over everything going on and helps the Council get over any disputes that they might be having. The Overseer doesn’t have the Power to Ban or Move Threads. Only the Ability to suggest decisions to help the Council decide what to do in certain matters. The overseer also keeps a watch on the Council and can determine if any of them are becoming corrupt.

Generally the Overseer is the Person Administering the Servers. This person Doesn’t have to be on 24/7, but only enough to see if there is a request for help. This position would be great for Tom since he stops in every now and then anyway. Also Tom was here from the start and if it wasn’t for him We wouldn’t have an AO. ;)

[PBX Ronin 23]

Thought provoking indeed. Still thinking about your post this morning, RX2.

[Lohman446]

I say we just :shooting: anyone circumventing a ban :D

[hitech]

Okay, at the risk of sounding like an old fart, again, I'm going to comment on the "good ole days". As many people know, I liked the "good ole days". I'm not necessarily referring to AO, but the "good ole days" of paintball.

Ah yes, the "good ole days". Or were they? There are elements of those times that were better than what we have now. And there were things that were worse. I don't want to go back to shooting junk paint with splatmasters. I would like to go back to a game that was a little less how fast you can shoot and a little more how well you could play. I'd like to change the game of paintball that exists today to include what I perceive as the best of both times. I want to bring back those things that I believe we never should have changed. And there are a lot of them. However, I don't want to go back.

Same philosophy with AO. There are things that are better now. There are things that are worse. And I'll bet that not everyone agrees with what those things are. I'd like to get rid of the "what should I buy" and "look at me threads". I'd like to have a spelling and grammar filter. ;) I'd like shartley to post more. :wow: I'd like to have more discussions about what is really covered by a paintball patent. I'd like to have intelligent discussions debating the latest upgrade. I'd like to... you get the idea. However, not all of you would like to see those same changes. Just like many of you probably don't agree with what I'd like to change about paintball today.

And who should decide? I think the owner of this forum is who has final say.

I do think the warning system is a good idea. However, that isn't really a change to the forum as the other ideas are. It's just tracking software. Like the plugin miscue found to limit sigs to once per page.

As long as AO remains viable, I'm happy...

:cheers:

[PBX Ronin 23]

What actions can we promote that will bring back the old AO?

Adulation for the worthy. Condemnation for the worthless.

[Lurker27]

Simply administer an entrance test. it's what the old battlebots forum did (and a smarter group of guys you'd be hard pressed to find).

Basically, a long enough test scares off n00bs who aren't serious in the first place, and also gets rid of idiots who fail the first time around. I'm not suggesting a paintball SAT II, but definately a gate to keep out the electronic noise.

[GodLovesUgly]

make a new rule disallowing "look at my new gun" posts, if you want ppl to see your gun enter it the GOTM contest... then we solve two problems!!!

my .02

[epterry]

Maybe I am wrong, but I believe that AO's intellectual decline started when the spell check was lost. This may seem strange but if someone has a well thought out opinion that looks professional then my reply will be well thought out and look professional. One of the main “features” that makes anything written look nice and professional is that it is legible and contains sentences that are not clauses. Now I personally cannot spell "werth a fllip" (ha ha very funny), But I care about anyone reading this, so I copy paste into word and use its spell check. Yes, some times things will be replaced by the wrong word but this is the exception not the normal case. Thus I believe that making people use the English language would help for a start on the road to making every one realize that we come here to talk about paintball not make primitive grunting noises about nonsense. Thank you for reading my rant. EPTerry

[Automaggot68]

Time Travel!

[Creative Mayhem]

:cuss: All you little whiney brats complaining about everything and everyone need to go elsewhere and quit chasing off good upstanding members of AO that actually have intelligent things to say. :cuss:



Whew... that feels better.

[Automaggot68]

:cuss: All you little whiney brats complaining about everything and everyone need to go elsewhere and quit chasing off good upstanding members of AO that actually have intelligent things to say. :cuss:



Whew... that feels better.

Thorums, anyone?

[CrimsonTurkey]

The council idea, that sounds like a good way to control the masses, and is the general idea of what I was getting at.

However, i think the exact system seems a bit too clumsy.

I think the job the mods are doing is fine as it is, and it is better we don't burden them with much of the irritating junk. The mods should just go about their normal buisness of keeping the "buy my sooped spyder" in the right forums and banning fools without having to worry about anything else. The officers could, and probably should, have a set number, say 19, and, in the case when an officer should want to step down due to inactivity on the forums or preference the officers, including the one who is leaving should vote to pick a replacement.

To pick the origional officers we could, have some rediculous election. (oh dear god) or have the mods pick them out. Or we could get together, in the fashion of a certain famaglia I know and tell the people we refer to as pazzo to leave while we say something along the lines of "hey paisan, being the great Ao'er you are: How would you like a spot on the council?"

This way the mods can keep doing what they are doing, being overworked and underpaid, while we can create, hopefully in a somewhat efficient manner, our new government to help allow just a bit of segregation betwixt the sane and the insane.

And really, I am amazed somebody listened to my suggestion, thats a new one.

-Turkey

[Lurker27]

Create an invite-only subforum.

[Pickle]

Beat me now but I only read the first and last pages. :wow: However, here is my worthless contribution.

The mods here do a great job (no worthlessness there). The problem as I see it is continuing to allow jerks, idiots (I like the test idea), trolls and others to continue to post here.

The litmus test for AO priveleges should be respect towards AO and its members. Mods (perhaps the #'s need to increase) need to absolutely hammer those people that are disrespectful or break the forum rules. Put a pic of your gat in the wrong thread and you get a warning. Two broken rules and a temp ban. Three and you can keep posting at PBN. No leet! The biggest complaint I see here is people being jerks. So take care of the jerks. An off topic analogy would be taking the guns out of honest citizens hand's when the crimials shoot too many people.

There is nothing wrong with banning behavior that is not currently in the rule structure. If someone wants to be a jerk then let them do it somewhere else [cough, PBN]. If someone wants to lay the verbal smack down on some newb asking honest questions, let them do it somewhere else. Being a mod here on AO must be like having kids. Treat the members accordingly. Lay down the law (moral and leagal) and then make sure to follow through.

- end rant.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Whatever suggestions that may be contemplated must keep in mind the idea that you do not want to increase the work load for the Mods. They have enough to do.

[kosmo]

OOOOO... invite only subforum. That sounds groovy. Something like Gmail, where an initial batch of people are authorized 10 invites or something. Though sooner or later I have a feeling someone would sneak by and every crap-head would get in :shooting: Hmmmm... [/back to drawing board]

[Lohman446]

My apologies for scrolling to page three to find a thread that I had considered today... and thought about.

Many of us have asked this question of ourselves in a what can we as a collective can do to fix AO. Is it more moderators, a different format, a different forum, etc.?

Let me take a moment and instead discuss what we... as individuals can do to promote an AO that is more friendly and "deeper" than other forums. These following things are not jabs at anyone, and I am often guilty of them myselfs. Perhaps they don't apply to friendly corner, where I have a lot of fun and enjoy posting.

~We can take the time to read every post to a subject before replying. To consider each viewpoint, and how its holder got there.

~We can make our views static, available to change. I will confess I have some beleifs, some views, that you are not going to change. However, lets try to have discussions, to mold each of our beleifs. They are discussions, not arguments. Taking points and ideas from those that would disagree with you and molding them into your own is not loosing.

~We can think, for a moment or two, before replying. Let our thougths come together, rather than just throwing out our base reactions.

~We can simply not respond to those who would inject themselves into a discussion for nothing more than disruptment but not hold ourselved above anyone. Consider each viewpoint... some of the most valid ideas come from unlikely sources.

~We can hold ourselves to standards we find acceptable. In discussion, in grammar, in spelling. We can can make our own standards higher than anyone elses... and realize noone as perfect. With that known we cannot fault others for simple mistakes.

This... in my opinion, is the way we should think if we are to bring back the "old AO". Its not the system to change.. its how we function in the system.

[Lurker27]

The problem with self-improvement is that it only applies to those of us willing to do so...

I still think a test might be the best solution. Multiple choice, self scoring. Easy to add.

[hitech]

One of the easiest things is already happening;

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=164512

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=164439

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=163632

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=164528


:bounce:

:cheers: