Indonesian government asks troops to leave

[Steelrat]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6754820/

They set a deadline for foreign troops to leave by March, and also said "the sooner the better." They also told foreign aid workers to provide travel plans or face expulsion.

What the heck? Why do we even bother to help when they seem so eager for us to leave? I mean, they almost make it sound like they are doing us a favor by letting us stay and help their people.

[deathstalker]

So, they're not too happy with having a lot of foreigners in their country, especially if they're a military force? Hardly sounds any different to how Americans feel about foreigners in this country. Do you think Americans would react any different from Indonesians if Russia sent their military into California to help relief efforts there?

There's a wee bit more to the story than your two sentences indicate.

[taylor492]

So, they're not too happy with having a lot of foreigners in their country, especially if they're a military force? Hardly sounds any different to how Americans feel about foreigners in this country. Do you think Americans would react any different from Indonesians if Russia sent their military into California to help relief efforts there?

There's a wee bit more to the story than your two sentences indicate.


Thats what the link is for.

If they dont want our help, military or civilian. Fine by me. Bring em all home tommorrow

[Steelrat]

So, they're not too happy with having a lot of foreigners in their country, especially if they're a military force? Hardly sounds any different to how Americans feel about foreigners in this country. Do you think Americans would react any different from Indonesians if Russia sent their military into California to help relief efforts there?

There's a wee bit more to the story than your two sentences indicate.

Last time I checked, no one sends anyone to help when there is a natural disaster in the US. Also, the last time I checked, the Indonesians ASKED for help. Finally, does anyone really think that the US is going to invade Indonesia under the guise of an aide mission?

[deathstalker]

To reiterate, I don't think you understand why they don't want another military presence in their country. It's almost a civil war in that region, and a "third-party" army doesn't sit well with them. They aren't afraid of an invasion, but a tipping of the balance of power. I can certainly understand that. Also, don't interpret "Leave by March" as "we don't want your help". The two are very different concepts. They welcome humanitarian aid, but aren't thrilled by the idea of it provided by soldiers and foreigners.

Last time I checked, hypothetical (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hypothetical) examples do not need a real-life example that has actually taken place. Go ahead and just think about how you would feel if the Russian army moved into California. I'll bet my severance it doesn't sit well with you.

Doesn't sound like you've made too many trips outside of America's borders. I suggest you do so, and do it with an open mind. You can learn quite a bit about other cultures simply by visiting them. Failing that, take an Anthro 101 class at the local community college. The American way of life isn't the only one out there.

[Steelrat]

Doesn't sound like you've made too many trips outside of America's borders. I suggest you do so, and do it with an open mind. You can learn quite a bit about other cultures simply by visiting them. Failing that, take an Anthro 101 class at the local community college. The American way of life isn't the only one out there.

Wow, thats pretty presumptuous of you. I don't know you, and you sure as hell don't know me, so spare me your assumptions about who I am and where I have been.


Last time I checked, hypothetical examples do not need a real-life example that has actually taken place. Go ahead and just think about how you would feel if the Russian army moved into California. I'll bet my severance it doesn't sit well with you

Next time, try not trying to talk down to people. For the hypothetical example to work, it has to be relevant to the situation at hand. Indonesia asked for help, and we sent our troops, who are avaiable and equipped to help out. We have never asked the Russian army, or any Russian governmental organization, to move into California, nor can I think of any possible situation that would require us to ask the Russian government to send their military to the US. I doubt there is any military in the world, other than the US armed forces, even capable of rapid large scale deployments.


They welcome humanitarian aid, but aren't thrilled by the idea of it provided by soldiers and foreigners

Who, exactly, do they expect to provide it?

[SpecialBlend2786]

oy...

[xXHavokXx]

Who, exactly, do they expect to provide it?


Santa Claus.

Seriously. And our troops cannot carry weapons while there. If a single troop gets shot because they are not armed I say we invade, slash and burn and leave.

[BlackWeenie]

To reiterate, I don't think you understand why they don't want another military presence in their country. It's almost a civil war in that region, and a "third-party" army doesn't sit well with them. They aren't afraid of an invasion, but a tipping of the balance of power. I can certainly understand that. Also, don't interpret "Leave by March" as "we don't want your help". The two are very different concepts. They welcome humanitarian aid, but aren't thrilled by the idea of it provided by soldiers and foreigners.


thats exactly what i was going to say, theyre in the (almost) midst of a civil war, and given the recent history of america's foreign "activities" its understandable why the indonesian government would be trying to get military aid out hastily.

[PyRo]

I'm up for cutting off all US funds to them and am glad I didn't and arn't going to donate a dime to them. They hate the United States, they're country is devistated, they love the United States when we step foward and provide relief, as soon as they're back on their feet they're back to hating the U.S. So you know what? Screw them.
Do they really think we are going to randomly decide to invade them? I really don't think they can be that stupid although you never know. Are we helping either side of the civil war? Last I checked we wern't shooting at anyone, so if either side had a brain they wouldn't shoot at any American soldiers then they wouldn't have a problem. Although again you wonder if some of these people really do have a brain. They want relief but not by the military? Do they expect us to spend billions of dollars on a special non-military relief force so that they can be happy with the free aid they are getting?
I really don't like the idea of sending unarmed troops into an area currently undergoing a civil war and in which both sides don't like America. I don't think anyone likes the idea but it is probably going to happen anyway.

[Steelrat]

thats exactly what i was going to say, theyre in the (almost) midst of a civil war, and given the recent history of america's foreign "activities" its understandable why the indonesian government would be trying to get military aid out hastily.

Because they think we would support the rebels? And the recent history of our activities? Its not like we have gone around randomly invading countries for no reason.

[Lohman446]

It is obvious to me that the Indonesian goverment is not doing its job of looking out for the welfare of its people... either pull everyone out and let the people suffer or replace the goverment with one more caring about its people. I kinda favor option 2 :D

[Mango]

From the start I didn't know why we gave those people money/aid. When 9/11 happened THEY were among the people dancing in the streets!! Oh what a short memory we have.

[PyRo]

It is obvious to me that the Indonesian goverment is not doing its job of looking out for the welfare of its people... either pull everyone out and let the people suffer or replace the goverment with one more caring about its people. I kinda favor option 2 :D
Nah, we have to finish Iraq and Afghanistan first and North Korea should be next.

[SCpoloRicker]

Doesn't sound like you've made too many trips outside of America's borders. I suggest you do so, and do it with an open mind. You can learn quite a bit about other cultures simply by visiting them. Failing that, take an Anthro 101 class at the local community college. The American way of life isn't the only one out there.

Oh, share with us your worldly knowledge, good sir.

/Pretentious much?
//10+ visited
///doesn't mean jack

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Did you guys read the whole article? Or check any of the links? It was nothing to be upset about. The Indonesians are hoping to no longer need disaster relief by the end of March. That's it. Finis. There is no insult, and no America-hating. Maybe some bad translation or poor choice of words on the press release to say "deadline" rather than "target date".

Although from reading the linked article about the orphans, I can see how the Indonesians might be keen to get western troops and aid workers out. At least one American Christian aid group (World Help) is hoping to use the disaster-relief efforts as an oportunity to convert orphaned muslim children. That's got to upset some people over there. I know that similar moves by churches to christianise native children in Canada have caused some lasting cultural scars.

[Lohman446]

Did you guys read the whole article? Or check any of the links? It was nothing to be upset about. The Indonesians are hoping to no longer need disaster relief by the end of March. That's it. Finis. There is no insult, and no America-hating. Maybe some bad translation or poor choice of words on the press release to say "deadline" rather than "target date".

Although from reading the linked article about the orphans, I can see how the Indonesians might be keen to get western troops and aid workers out. At least one American Christian aid group (World Help) is hoping to use the disaster-relief efforts as an oportunity to convert orphaned muslim children. That's got to upset some people over there. I know that similar moves by churches to christianise native children in Canada have caused some lasting cultural scars.

The Indonesians are, as they have been in the recent past, concerned with there standings if the rest of the world sees how they conduct there battle against the rebels. FYI, short of genocide, teh killing of innocents intentionally, welll things happen in war in my mind.

[RogueFactoryKid]

From the start I didn't know why we gave those people money/aid. When 9/11 happened THEY were among the people dancing in the streets!! Oh what a short memory we have.

So your back in gradeschool and you always hear about this big bully but he never picks on you, but still you hear bad things. One day a kid comes up to you and tells you that bully just got his *** handed to him by a little nerd. What is your first reaction? Your happy the bully just got what he deserved. You didnt really know what he did but because of what everybody else said you just figured it was a good thing that he got his *** handed to him. Perhaps im wrong, i'm 17 not a big politics person but it is just my theory.

[Albinonewt]

So, they're not too happy with having a lot of foreigners in their country, especially if they're a military force? Hardly sounds any different to how Americans feel about foreigners in this country. Do you think Americans would react any different from Indonesians if Russia sent their military into California to help relief efforts there?

There's a wee bit more to the story than your two sentences indicate.

A single Aircraft carrier purifies 400,000 gallons of water a day.

They want us gone because they're afraid their people be grateful to us, and that is a problem for their shoddy little regime

[Jonneh]

Because they think we would support the rebels? And the recent history of our activities? Its not like we have gone around randomly invading countries for no reason.Clever.

[Steelrat]

Clever.

No, I meant it. I'm fairly upset at our intelligence failures preceding the invasion of Iraq, but when we invaded, there was some justification provided. I think its a pretty big leap to use our actions in Afghanistan and Iraq as evidence that we would invade Indonesia.

[Albinonewt]

No, I meant it. I'm fairly upset at our intelligence failures preceding the invasion of Iraq, but when we invaded, there was some justification provided. I think its a pretty big leap to use our actions in Afghanistan and Iraq as evidence that we would invade Indonesia.


If for no other reason that our troops are doing something right now. And there are plenty of nations on the list before Indonesia.

[PyRo]

Does anyone think that they are telling their people they are basically kicking the aid groups out? I'll bet they're telling everyone we refuse to stay.
Newt is right, their government doesn't want anyone to be gratefull to America.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

A single Aircraft carrier purifies 400,000 gallons of water a day.

They want us gone because they're afraid their people be grateful to us, and that is a problem for their shoddy little regime

That is possible, but I don't see any particular reason why it might be true. Unless you count the fact that the USA supported the Suharto dictatorship for three decades prior to Indonesia's recent move towards democracy. But that's quite a leap of logic.

While the third world contains lots of "shoddy little regimes", it isn't fair to characterise Indonesia as such. They are not "little" by any definition. It is the most populous state in the Muslim world, and one of the biggest anywhere. And they seem to be making an effort at democracy, which is more than can be said for most countries.

[BlackWeenie]

Because they think we would support the rebels? And the recent history of our activities? Its not like we have gone around randomly invading countries for no reason.

indonesia obviously isnt a very stable region, so any foreign nations in their country would have them on their heels. just think if you were in their position, you would probably do the same. by recent history of americas activities, i mean that they have invaded two countries in [what is it?] 2 years? i say this because to the rest of the world, george bush is seen as a war junkie, and an all around bad guy. now, it sounds to me like youre a republican, and thats fine, but the causes for invading iraq, really havent been justified as american powerholders pounded the WMD threat into the public's minds as the cause of the war, and the search has recently been scratched.

please understand that im not trying to get under anyone's skin here or trying to offend anyone, im merely sharing my thoughts, i find political debates fairly interesting ;).
(not bad for a 16 year old canadian boy is it? ;))



From the start I didn't know why we gave those people money/aid. When 9/11 happened THEY were among the people dancing in the streets!! Oh what a short memory we have.

i think that that is an immature attitude towards the situation, quite honestly, (sorry mango, i still love you) one country has to be the "bigger man" and stop the hate. rather than saying, "they did it to us, lets return the favour" you should be proud that your country is stepping up to the plate and trying to improve relations/its global image. they did the right thing in this situation, and thats something to take pride in.

[Lohman446]

If they do nto want aid and the military that accompanies it (face it the region is unstable and may be dangerous for aid workers) then they should do waht India has done. Refused all foreign aid.

[Steelrat]

now, it sounds to me like youre a republican, and thats fine, but the causes for invading iraq, really havent been justified as american powerholders pounded the WMD threat into the public's minds as the cause of the war, and the search has recently been scratched.

please understand that im not trying to get under anyone's skin here or trying to offend anyone, im merely sharing my thoughts, i find political debates fairly interesting ;).
(not bad for a 16 year old canadian boy is it? ;))


Actually, I don't completely side with either party, but I did vote for Kerry. Frankly, whatever the public reactions might be in Indonesia and other places, their governments know EXACTLY what the US is doing. Don't believe the government of any nation is naive enough to believe the US might actually invade them for no reason at all. Whatever the Indonesian government is doing, it has nothing to do with fear of a US invasion.

[GT]

george bush is seen as a war junkie, and an all around bad guy. now, it sounds to me like youre a republican, and thats fine, but the causes for invading iraq, really havent been justified as american powerholders pounded the WMD threat into the public's minds as the cause of the war, and the search has recently been scratched.

Maybe you missed all the UN resolutions aganist iraq for those invisible WMD's? Not the US' fault for the lack luster performance of the WMD seekers. Besides, Saddam was telling his aids that he had them. Why would he do something like that?

On the Tsunanmi effort:
Rest assured there will be americans killed over there in terror attacks. I hate to say it, but it will happen and I can gurentee that the US already has conter-terrorims ops in place.

ohhhh the things we dont know or will never know..... :rofl:

(not bad for a 9 year old)

[Alpha]

I think they have some sort of nuclear, chemical or biological program going on.. Some WMD program, or something happened in the past that they've been keeping under covers... Some sort of a "conspiracy" if you want to call it that.

Maybe we didn't find stockpiles of WMD's in Iraq, but here...
SAddam hussein committed genocide inthe 1980's. What did he use? Chemical weapons. What do you tihnk the Gulf WAr Syndrome is? Is it from the vaccines? Or exposure to soemthind shade? CAn't be vaccines.. Theres such a broad array of symptoms. And the government denies it. I hink Bush knows somethign the rest of America doesn't.

ANd on those terms... Bush is not an idiot. People might make fun of him for "making up words" or being a bad speaker, but have you seen any of his debated from when he was running for governer? HE's a great debater. and a powerful speaker. What I tihnk is its a strategy he uses. He kinda dumbs things down a bit, to put it simply. Ever et embarrassed or frusterated becuase you don't udnerstand what someone said?

WE're at war. Bush is a great military leader. People say that he is war hungry, but hell, we got attacked in september 11th, there were Anthrax attacks, there were numerous threats made to the United States. Do you expect our Commander in Chief to sit down, think aut it, and send flowers? No, find the bad guys, and blow them to hell.

If you can do a better job, run for president.

WE're doign the right thing in Iraq. Period. People who say otherwise are victim to the liberal Bised media, and that overweight hick's propeganda.

The American people have changed... A lot. 50 years ago military service was honored. Now all people do is watch things unfold on TV and say "Too bad for them", and continue with their day. ITs a liberal, christian soccermom/hockeydad ruled world. Open up your eyes, and realize that we are in the most privelaged country. There is no internal conflict, there are no standing armies capable of invading.

Sorry, kinda went off on a rant...

EDIT: And people seem to forget... A while back, SAddam didnt let UN weapons inspectors inspect all of his bases. He kicked them out. The UN are fairies. WE did somethign about it.

[hAppy]

ok Alpha

Why do we even bother to help them..... they don't know how to show appreciation.

[Ghetto]

Did you guys read the whole article? Or check any of the links? It was nothing to be upset about. The Indonesians are hoping to no longer need disaster relief by the end of March. That's it. Finis. There is no insult, and no America-hating. Maybe some bad translation or poor choice of words on the press release to say "deadline" rather than "target date".

Although from reading the linked article about the orphans, I can see how the Indonesians might be keen to get western troops and aid workers out. At least one American Christian aid group (World Help) is hoping to use the disaster-relief efforts as an oportunity to convert orphaned muslim children. That's got to upset some people over there. I know that similar moves by churches to christianise native children in Canada have caused some lasting cultural scars.



"First and foremost, our intention is not to evangelize but to show the love of Jesus Christ through our acts of compassion," Brewer said. "We are not using this open window of disaster to move in and set up a beachhead for evangelism. That's not the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish. . . . We just want to show the genuineness of our faith. We have no ulterior motive here."

They are moving homless children out of a country to a place that will care for them. IMO a christian home is better than none at all.

[Alpha]

ok Alpha

Why do we even bother to help them..... they don't know how to show appreciation.

If they dont want our help, then we dont give it to them. I'm sur eprivate companies will still be donating money.

Anyone know how much in damage it caused, and how much has been donated?

[GT]

I think they have some sort of nuclear,

Iserali's went and blew up a nuke reactor that was being built, and completed, in the '80's. If they hadnt done that Iraq was only a step away from attaining the fuel, which wouldnt have been hard given all the jobless russian scientests after the fall of communism. Lots of missing nasty stuff out there, and there is always a willing buyer. ;)

[BlackWeenie]

ANd on those terms... Bush is not an idiot. People might make fun of him for "making up words" or being a bad speaker, but have you seen any of his debated from when he was running for governer? HE's a great debater. and a powerful speaker. What I tihnk is its a strategy he uses. He kinda dumbs things down a bit, to put it simply. Ever et embarrassed or frusterated becuase you don't udnerstand what someone said?

bottom line is, it doesnt matter how smart/dumb any president is/will be, theyre more often than not the ones calling the shots, their advisors are mainly the ones making important decisions, and he has speechwriters who type out all his ****. the only reason why people think hes dumb is because he misspells (sp? <-irony) words that he hasnt written and likely hasnt even ever seen before. and as far as powerful speaker goes, thats debateable. most people accredited kerry with an outstanding victory during the presidential debates.


WE're at war. Bush is a great military leader. People say that he is war hungry, but hell, we got attacked in september 11th, there were Anthrax attacks, there were numerous threats made to the United States. Do you expect our Commander in Chief to sit down, think aut it, and send flowers? No, find the bad guys, and blow them to hell.

i like the facist attitude :p.


If you can do a better job, run for president.

WE're doign the right thing in Iraq. Period. People who say otherwise are victim to the liberal Bised media, and that overweight hick's propeganda.

im legally not allowed to run for prez. and regarding the "liberal biased media/everyone who disagrees with me is wrong" that is your opinion, whether its right or wrong, dont tell people what to think, this isnt the ****in USSR

[t33kyboy]

ooo canadian told you alpha!!!!

[maglover728]

We should withhold all aid like this until some obscure little country comes up and offers to help people in the south east corner of the US after they are displaced by a season of hurricanes. Once we see that others care about us, than it will be ok once again to care about, police, support, stabilize, heal, rebuild, advise, etc. the rest of the world again!