Decrease ROF...WHY not DECREASE VELOCITY - Serious discussion [Archive]

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 04:30 PM

I just had a very long conversation with a prominent, long standing and respected member of the Paintball Industry about the potential ramifications of the sports current state of affairs as it relates to the ROF issue and cheater modes on electronic boards.

This may very well be what killed the goose that laid the golden egg for people involved in the business of paintball. With the potential intervention of regulatory bodies that deal with consumer product safety issues, the potential increase in eye injuries that may be occurring with the rapidly increasing rates of fire and the velocity ramping modes that not only the custom board guys make but also the stock boards that some manufacturers install into their guns, it behooves the industry as a whole to start reconsidering the VERY REAL ramifications of this dilemma.

Although injuries that occur at the fields have stayed relatively stable, it is the injuries that occur outside that environment that is worrisome. Such injuries and accident are covered by home insurance carriers. The rate of paintball related injuries outside of the regulated field environment has seen a steady increase. At some point in time, these increases will lead to the insurance companies lobbying not just for restrictive legislation but rather prohibitive ones. These insurance companies have the ability to shut down paintball as a sport and as an industry.

So what now? In a comment I made earlier in connection with a rant on ROF, I specifically laid out that the industry and the sport have too many divergent interests and no universally accepted governing body to mandate the necessary corrective measures. As an example of this, take a look at the NPPL and who sits on the Rules Committee. I believe Mr. Ged Green, owner of WDP, is a member of that committee. If the NPPL is to be looked upon by us as one of the guiding forces in the industry when it comes to generally accepted rules, can they under the leadership of Chuck Hendsch enact rules that may be perceived as contrary to WDP's best interest? Can these two gentlemen separate the political issues that govern their participation in the sport and just focus in on doing what's in the best interest of all?

Can the ASTM Sub-committee for paintball, play a role in safeguarding the future of the sport? They know what needs to get done. The problem that exists is that they have neither the muscle nor the political consensus to enact the corrective measure that they know they need to enact.

Will the manufacturers see that it is in their own long-term best interest to act collectively in conjunction with the ASTM sub-committee and find a solution? Can they subvert their egos and prevent a potential catastrophe from happening? My guess, probably not. Their drive to compete in a market place predicated on a self-perpetuating arms race won't allow them to.

Can the Players see that if they feed the supply with their demand for faster shooting guns and cheater boards, that they themselves are driving their own demise?

I believe that there are just too many divergent interests and not enough common ground to facilitate a solution to this problem. Perhaps the solution isn't "how to decrease the amount of paint being shot" but rather to decrease the energy with which the paint impacts a target. What very few people know and what no one really cares to trumpet in public is that lenses in today's goggle systems can only take so many direct impacts before it fails. Check the warning labels and you'll know exactly what I mean.

I hope that this post can ignite a worthy discussion and garner some thoughtful responses. It behooves the members of the paintball inteligensia who frequent this board to sound off their thoughts on this subject and the potential solution that I am espousing.

Thordic

01-17-2005, 04:37 PM

Take a lens, stick it somewhere it can't move, and rail on it with paint. Start at 300 FPS.

When it doesn't break, jack up the velocity and keep trying.

A paintball doesn't have enough energy to cause catostrophic failure in a mask under normal circumstances. is it possible to maybe crack a lens? Yeah, possibly. But doubtfully in a way that will lead to injury.

If you step down the velocity, then you lose range. If you lose any more range from the already low range of most paintballs, then you'll have a lot of player backlash.

Has there EVER been an incident of injury to the eyes when proper protection was worn? I doubt it.

JKR

01-17-2005, 04:38 PM

http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=9013&messageid=1105798804

My opinions on the ROF issue begin with response seven and continue. To me, it isn't about limiting ROF or velocity. If you limit paint allowed on the field for each game, rec or tournament, then the matter would likely resolve itself.

My responses also address the financial aspects of the issue as well.

BTW, Good post PBX Ronin 23...

I believe you hit the nail on the head when you stated: "I believe that there are just too many divergent interests and not enough common ground to facilitate a solution to this problem."

Justin

Muzikman

01-17-2005, 04:40 PM

I would think that a decrease in velocity is just a band aid to the problem. Over the years many other sports (Nascar comes to mind) had to put a stop to things that might not have made the equipment mfg's happy. But at the same times, in these sports the people making the rules cared not about company 'A' making more money based on the rules.

A paintball gun even at low velocity can still cause damage. About the only thing you might prevent is the mask breaking issues. I would really like to see the ASTM step in and do something. I see it the only way to calm the sport down.

When guns started hitting 13bps I was thinking, damn, that's too fast. Now we got guns hitting 25+ bps and I am thinking, damn I can't carry enough paint.

68magOwner

01-17-2005, 04:43 PM

as a player, i have noticed a huge increase in ramping or other ROF cheats on the field, i had practice yesterday with some CFOA teams, who, next season will be forced to shoot only 15bps, but, at practice, there were mumerious ramping markers, auto response markers, even a few full auto (refs really didnt care) and if a marker wasnt ramping, it was on debounce 1 just to level the playing field, now, there was overshooting for shure, but, it really wasnt THAT big of a deal, i think ramping adds another element to the sport, but, i dont feel that its not something that players cant learn to cope with. Now, off the field injuries....thats a whole nother monster.

Muzikman

01-17-2005, 04:44 PM

http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=9013&messageid=1105798804

My opinions on the ROF issue begin with response seven and continue. To me, it isn't about limiting ROF or velocity. If you limit paint allowed on the field for each game, rec or tournament, then the matter would likely resolve itself.

Problem is, that won't happen. Then the paint companies will not make as much money. If you allow unlimited paint but slow down the guns, the back players will still dump a ton of paint.

Miscue

01-17-2005, 04:45 PM

Ban electros! Best thing that can be done for the game.

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 04:49 PM

One of the things that I alluded to but did not go further on is the potential for outside intervention to mandate solutions that the industry itself can solve on its own.

We are, for the most part, still under the radar screen. Do we really want to become a big bleep on that screen?

Thordic, I understand your arguement but the fact of the matter is I have seen enough players with lenses that have "cob webs" already showing on their lenses and are still resistant to immediately changing them. Eventually when enough stress is applied to any surface area, signs of stress will appear and eventual failure will occur if not corrected.

A good post on "Lethal Energy" posted by Manike in Doc's board prompted my thought towards the decrease in velocity. As for range, on a regulation size NPPL field, you can shoot corner to corner at 250fps and still reach with the right arc in your shot. If rules on velocity decrease is enacted, players will adjust.

I agree with Musikman, limiting paint is not the answer because it will encounter too much resistance on so many levels.

manike

01-17-2005, 04:51 PM

Mel, you are incorrect in assuming modern goggles can't take the rof or impact energy that they are likely to take when used in modern play.

I have some video's you might want to see sometime. :) Actually I think I posted them here before... I'm not even slightly worried about playing with a decent modern mask. You should just replace the lenses AT least every year, and after they take any serious abuse that shows visible problems.

Also if you want to reduce the energy so that you can't damage an eye, you'll need to be under 2ftlbs... which means 129fps... and even then it's debateable that you could still damage an eye.

nippinout

01-17-2005, 04:52 PM

Decreasing velocity will have a greater impact on energy then decreasing mass: .5mv^2

Tom Kaye once told us about how the old industrial guys thought of paintball as a whole: Instead of each man getting a bigger piece of the pie, they worked together to make the pie bigger. The pie has gotten bigger, but now there are some who want bigger pieces of the pie, topped with whipped cream, and perhaps even change the pie's flavor!

manike has shown us pics of a lens taking a whole lot of hurt from a very close range. I have great confidence in my lens.

You say that the number of injuries outside of commercial fields have increased. I think that this needs to be compared with the rate at which play outside of commercial fields have increased as well. It could be the same percentage, we just have an increase in the paintball playing population as a whole, but the same ratio of renegades.

Fast sells. But, it's the fields paying for the insurance. The field owners can put a cap on bps and fps. Their rules can be more strict that those of the insurance company or the ASTM standards. But remember that the ones getting all the media attenion are the idiots who shoot people walking on the sidewalk.

Tournaments are a small niche in paintball. Its the recballers that are the lifeblood of paintball. The manufacturers want to sell guns, and field owners want to sell paint. It's a minefield of conflicts of interest. But ultimately, the field owners pay the insurance. But if they cap at 200fps and 13bps, players may play at the field that allows 300fps and 30bps.

It's all FUBAR.

manike

01-17-2005, 04:52 PM

Ban electros! Best thing that can be done for the game.

Yeah, and allow Mechanical RT's at 26bps... :rolleyes: :rofl:

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 04:55 PM

nippinout

01-17-2005, 04:56 PM

Problem Solved!

http://www.blowgunsnw.com/wr3c.jpg

LudavicoSoldier

01-17-2005, 04:57 PM

Heh...all the things Tournament PB has made us worry about... I don't see any reason for leagues not to sanction a velocity limit. You don't need to shoot 280-300FPS to make it end to end on most all tournament fields.

A velocity limit lower than 300 just wouldnt fly in RecBall. Try punching through bushes at 250! :D

teufelhunden

01-17-2005, 05:04 PM

A 250FPS shot may go corner to corner on an NPPL field, but will it break? The fact that you said with the right arc means I doubt it. With the right arc, I can shoot 300fps 200 feet [er, probably not, but you get it.

And besides, the injuries occur in backyards. The same people who have 4 year old, beaten to hell masks. Do you really think they're going to drop their velocity? Hell, do you think they have a chrono? The only people that would be affected is people who play at fields, the ones who already play safe.

Southpaw

01-17-2005, 05:20 PM

Simon, it's not the new lenses that I'm concerned with but rather the ones that have been structurally compromised and yet the owner of the mask still won't change it.

Decrease in velocity need not be the only possible solution to the problem. Possible ideas, I'm hoping, will arise from this discussion.

I don’t understand that logic. Field owners need to not let people play with cracked/damaged lenses. If you can’t take responsibility for yourself when playing renegade then only you are liable/negligent. You can’t mandate common sense. If you see some one with spider webbed, cracked or otherwise damaged lenses bring it to their attention, bring it to the owners attention, Mock and belittle them untill they fix it. I dont understand why you have to punish the rest of us because people play without the propper maintained safety equiptment.

manike

01-17-2005, 05:21 PM

Simon, it's not the new lenses that I'm concerned with but rather the ones that have been structurally compromised and yet the owner of the mask still won't change it.

All manufacturers clearly state the lenses should be changed once a year and after any close range impact.

Simple answer, we date stamp when lenses were made (many already are), and the fields check them when players turn up to see that they are in date, just like with tanks.

Also you check for any visible defects and refuse to let anyone play without replacing their lenses. You should probably do that anyway.

firebanex

01-17-2005, 05:31 PM

Ban electros! Best thing that can be done for the game.

By far the best idea yet :clap:

Lee

01-17-2005, 05:36 PM

i think the key issue ronin raised is the off field injuries.
when too many little johhnys and billies get hurt, things may hit the fan. kids messing around in thier back yards with equipment beyond thier experience or capabilities as well as super store customers shooting at people and property is where the problem will surface.
competition and regular rec players are the ones that are experienced enough to be safe and less likely to do something risky while amongst the general public, though i think they are increasingly the minority of the sport, and, if i'm not mistaken, regular tournament players are a small fraction of the over all population of paintball players.

consider the steady growth, "main streaming" and increased accessability of markers and paint combined with the age groups that much marketing is targeted at.

though i'm not in the know about these things, i think it can be safely assumed that at least the larger events and thier venues have adequate insurance by a provider that is aware of the risks/percentages of having to make a payout. and also, i would think that playing on a legitament insured field or venue, there is a personal assumption of risk to an extent.
i do feel that a better referee corps is needed to enforce rules and ensure safety. ref training needs to cover what to look for in a safe or unsafe mask lens or how to spot an illegal or unsafe marker. these things come with experience and not every ref gets that experience. and actually, most the emphasis is placed on spotting markers, not checking lenses for damage or masks for proper fit.

peoples actions on the street and in the home is what will create the most worry for insurers and if it begins to cost them, it may begin to cost us.

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 05:38 PM

No disrespect intended but you guys are missing the point. Granted, we can put disclaimers on products and the responsible fields will diligently replace their lenses on a prescribed interval. But what happens to the knucklehead who doesn't pay attention to the warning labels and the renegade ballers who play in unregulated fields.

The point is if an incident occurs, it hampers ALL of us. Negative publicity is something that nobody wants, lest you're Denis Rodman and negative publicity is still publicity.

The fact of the matter is most of the injuries occur outside the realm of what we would consider "responsible" paintball. It's not Paintball insurance companies that will be complaining. It will be homeowners insurance companies that will since the economic burden will be carried by them.

If the outside world can see us policing ourselves and proactively taking measures to ensure the safety of the participants in the sport, then they may likely take a more positive position of us. Hence, worse case scenario - restrictive legislation......not prohibitive legislation.

Lohman446

01-17-2005, 05:42 PM

Ban electros! Best thing that can be done for the game.

There was a push to the limits of the rules, perhaps even cheating before electros. Ever seen a mag with multiple lines on the reg and body where they line up, those lines that look like scratches are not there for no reason.

What about the early retro valves that Jax Warriors were using without known correct chrono procedures (not that it makes a big difference) and with noone really looking for sweetspotting.

What about the beaver tail (lack thereof) trick for 'cockers.

Anyone recall shaking a CO2 container to get fluid to the liquid

manike

01-17-2005, 05:51 PM

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 05:56 PM

Touche, Manike, touche!!! LOL

SlartyBartFast

01-17-2005, 05:57 PM

Off Center

01-17-2005, 06:08 PM

JKR

01-17-2005, 06:12 PM

Problem is, that won't happen. Then the paint companies will not make as much money. If you allow unlimited paint but slow down the guns, the back players will still dump a ton of paint.

I address the issue of profits for the paint manufacturers and field owners also. Please read the three posts following this one:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=9013&messageid=1105881334

LudavicoSoldier

01-17-2005, 06:13 PM

EFFECTIVELY enforce the fps limit.
EFFECTIVELY enforce engagement and overshooting rules.

EFFECTIVELY = adequate officiating and penalties that matter.

Then there'd be no problem.

As for idiots hurting themselves outside of organised fields and games, well tough. But, the industry does have to mount an effective PR image to make sure that the association of PB with hooligan's is as unlikely as BAseball getting a bad name because some punk beats an old lady with a bat or golf getting a bad name because Jack Nickleson (the actor) beats a car with his clubs in a fit of road rage.

Mmmm...I like this one! Saying that it is unlikely for the Industry to police itself is in fact (IMHO) admitting the root of the problem. People who make the rules should not be allowed to profit from the rules, or lack thereof.

Tyger

01-17-2005, 06:15 PM

Nobody cares.

I've been saying for years that paintball is starting to get too dangerous, and nobody cares. "Well nobody's been hurt yet! We can go another 10 BPS." It won't matter if you lower the FPS, you've still got multiple projectiles in the air at any time, and the "Barrel sock" system is still dependant on the end user's judgement on when to throw it away becasue the ends are frayed out. (Assuming that the barrel sock will STOP a runaway trigger at 20 BPS for 5 seconds...)

The players don't care, because faster guns = better players and they all want to be better NOW.

The industry doesn't care, because they make money when playrs buy faster guns and more paint.

The fields don't care, because they make more money when people buy 2 cases a day instead of 1000 balls.

Nobody in the industry will care until something happens. Like some guy gets torched point blank and has permanent nerve damage from multiple impacts and sues the industry for willingly creating the circumstances to allow that to happen. Or even more fun, some kid is bunkered from a ramping gun, 15+ shots in the neck or kidneys in less than a second. Then we'll all act surprised, like we didn't see anything like this coming.

As long as the money machine is rolling, nobody will care. It doesn't matter that we won't see serious sponsorship from out-of-industry companies until we can show that we've matured enough to set restrictions on equipment. A few companies are rolling in the money so they keep it going. Believe me, if NASCAR drivers could they'd rip out restrictor plates and race, who cares if someone dies we're racing! Athletes will go as far as the rules allow, and then some. It's up to the "powers that be" to set the rules so they can perform within safe parameters.

Just because "nothing has happened yet" does not mean it never will.

-Tyger

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 06:27 PM

If you decrease velocity, you'll get fewer breaks, which will require more shots to accomplish a single elimination. I would think that the requirement for more shots would correlate with more injuries.
Your reason for the decrease in velocity will lead to higher profits.......who wouldn't like that.

Just because "nothing has happened yet" does not mean it never will.

-Tyger
Tru that!

teufelhunden

01-17-2005, 06:36 PM

EFFECTIVELY enforce the fps limit.
EFFECTIVELY enforce engagement and overshooting rules.

EFFECTIVELY = adequate officiating and penalties that matter.

Then there'd be no problem.

As for idiots hurting themselves outside of organised fields and games, well tough. But, the industry does have to mount an effective PR image to make sure that the association of PB with hooligan's is as unlikely as BAseball getting a bad name because some punk beats an old lady with a bat or golf getting a bad name because Jack Nickleson (the actor) beats a car with his clubs in a fit of road rage.

The problem does not lie within established fields and tournaments. People aren't getting hurt there at an alarming rate. People get hurt, of course, but people get hurt walking down the street. The issue is with the outlaw ballers who shoot at 375 because "300 doesnt give us enough range" and don't wear masks "cuz masks are for pussies"...

shatter_storm

01-17-2005, 06:37 PM

I can tell you right now that a reduction in FPS across the board will have a lot of people angry. Here's why:
My local field changed over it's airball course to a plywood-and-nails CQB bunkerfest arrangement. It's all doors and windows, angles and walls. In the process of doing this they dropped the FPS limit to 240 - the reasoning being that because it's all much closer up fighting, having a lower energy on the paintballs will help prevent injury. The owners a very safety-minded individual, and I can't blame him - nobody wants to get sued because some kid got hurt at their field.
However, 240 FPS sucks. Markers wern't designed for it, velocity spikes are much more problematic at that speed, and it's generally hard to keep everyone shooting below that level. Most paintguns are meant to operate at a certain FPS, with some variation so you can tune in barrel lengths, paint-to-barrel matches, atmospheric conditions, etc.
Most markers are meant to shoot 280 FPS or 300 FPS. 240 is a fairly extreme drop - so much so that most of the markers at my local field need overhauls to shoot at that speed. Spyders need different mainsprings, automags need to rebalance their mainsprings and LX carriers, tippmanns sometimes need new mainsprings and have recocking issues, it's a pain in the rear. The angels and shockers that show up at the field from time to time have major dropoff, shootdown, shootup, and inconsistancy issues as well. One fellow that had come up from florida (I think) could *not* get his shocker to drop velocity down below 260 FPS, no matter what he did to adjust it. He ended up using a rental tippmann for the day - a humbling experience for an advanced player.
The physics at that speed are also drasticly different. I don't know what the dimensions of a regular airball course is, but on this field you'd be hard pressed to reach end-to end at 240 FPS, much less corner-to-corner. Ball drop is really noticible, especialy because all the windows are cut at the same height. People who are used to 300 FPS will try and shoot 240 FPS and have a hard time adjusting to the trajectory. Shooting the course at 240 FPS and 300 FPS yields a different game - shots that arn't possible at 240 FPS are at 300. Lanes that can be held tight at 300 FPS end up having a huge spread pattern at 240 FPS. The ballistics are different and it takes away a lot of the consistancy and accuracy that you get at 280-300 FPS. Lobbing balls sucks.
Another issue is paint breakage. Breaks just don't occur as often at lower speeds than at higher ones. Yes, up close you're going to see 230 or 220 FPS at impact, but when you try for midrange or longer shots you have to really pepper a person to get one to break on anything but gear or mask. Get used to that sort of effect on a field and you'll see overshooting at every range - because the balls just don't break. Another thing to think of is the increased tissue damage caused - yes, the balls are going at a lower speed, but bounces transfer a great deal more energy to the person, so it's the same effect as being hit full speed up close and having it break.

My take on safety organizations and standards is that unless one regulating body steps up and sets for safe operating limits, and then requires insurance companies to require those limits to be enforced at the fields they insure, then nobody will accomplish anything. Local fields, especially up here in Maine, are divided on what "acceptable safe practices" are. My local field, which will sit you down for a half-hour for the first mask lift, runs strict rules and harsh (fair) penalties. A large amount of the other local fields have rather lax rules, and while I don't want to point specifics out, barrel plugs, chrony speeds, and mask use isn't strictly enforced and most violations result in warnings. I havn't visited every field in the area, and everybody has their up days and down days, but I don't see the kind of consistancy from one place to the next that an overseeing organization would enforce.

MindJob

01-17-2005, 06:39 PM

paullus99

01-17-2005, 06:49 PM

As far as insurance goes, the regulated fields & the industry in general are paying for the outlaw/backyard ball that goes on every weekend across the country. Those injuries are passed along to the rest of us, regardless.

I agree with capping the BPS, it only makes sense for the tourney scene - even NASCAR stock cars are supposedly all equal in performance......we'll see how this goes. Who knows, maybe a little skill will come back into the game.

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 06:50 PM

shatter_storm

01-17-2005, 06:59 PM

There is no way that electros will disapear or be banned. The cat is out of the bag and it isnt going back in.

Technology is causing the sport problems....
but
technology may very well be the answer to some of them

Cheater boards can be too easily hidden.

Maybe what is needed, is a board that can be flashed with legal software, right at the feild. This way, no one can smuggle in illegal software.

This way, everyone is on equal ground.

OF course this is by no means fool-proof, but I think that is would make it extremely difficult to get around the ROF rules.

Wait a minute. When the manufacturers arn't making legal software (smartparts), then what good is reflashing all the incoming people's boards going to do? We all know that at the highest of the high end, the pros don't even use their own gear - they use a common pool of sponsored team markers that are identical and ready to go. But that's not what happens on the local or divisional level, the players have to provide their own gear that conforms to specifications (if any). You'll have a kid with a shocker, a kid with an eblade, a kid with an angel, ten thousand kids with intimidators (bad joke, sorry), somebody with an emag, impulse, matrix, BKO, etc. All these markers use their own boards and their own software that is specific to the way each marker is set up. Yes, some of them are generic-action dwell-for-xx-ms-at-xx-volts markers, but why should everyone have to use the same board and same software?

Southpaw

01-17-2005, 07:00 PM

The problem does not lie within established fields and tournaments. People aren't getting hurt there at an alarming rate. People get hurt, of course, but people get hurt walking down the street. The issue is with the outlaw ballers who shoot at 375 because "300 doesnt give us enough range" and don't wear masks "cuz masks are for pussies"...

We should just mandate common sense. :tard: we should only make cars that go 65 mph and have huge oarnge bumpers and strobe lights so that pedistrians dont get hurt. Have how many pedistrian get KILLED every year?

On a more serious note. When someone does not wear goggles It is their fault. When someone shoots at people on the street they should be criminally charged. If you hear about your friends shooting people you should turn them in! Mandating a lower FPS outside ranges will be followed just like it is now in outlaw ball RARELY. As for the people that shoot people on the street I would bet you they will not turn down the fps to commit a crime. only the people that follow the rules that play in an already safe manner will be "punished"

hitech

01-17-2005, 07:00 PM

Maybe what is needed, is a board that can be flashed with legal software, right at the feild. This way, no one can smuggle in illegal software.

I don't assume you would be willing to place a wager on that? ;) BTW, I know how to build a cheater board for an eMag that isn't even connected to the emags circuit board. :wow:

Phobos

01-17-2005, 07:01 PM

Ban electros! Best thing that can be done for the game.

Ya, Ban electros about 15min after the Hair rigger finally gets released :mad: . Then you will see them all come crawling back to mags :ninja:

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 07:04 PM

I don't assume you would be willing to place a wager on that? ;) BTW, I know how to build a cheater board for an eMag that isn't even connected to the emags circuit board. :wow:
But if there is a universally accepted "standard board" then maybe this idea is a plausible one. Have the players put whatever software they want. Let them assume the liability.

But come major tourney time, reflash everything to "legal" and put some kind of checkable seal on the port.

Let the outside world see a more concrete effort to enhance safety in our sport.

CaliMagFan

01-17-2005, 07:09 PM

Soccer, or Football, depending on which side of the pond you're on is a good model for paintball. You have a bunch of players and coaches and equipment manufacturers trying to have the sport their way. But they can't, and why?. FIFA. A governing body that makes the rules, sets the standings, liscences refferees, and holds this little touranament every four years called the World Cup. We need a governing body that is not so connected to the players and the industry interest. I'll think of more in a bit, but for now i have to go back to work

Kyro

Muzikman

01-17-2005, 07:14 PM

I use to race R/C cars and raced quite a bit of "Stock" class events on the national level. When you registered you got a motor to use. This motor had it's bell tabs either coated with a paint or a colored wax type material dripped into the tab indents. This prevented people from changing the winding on the motor. This seemed to work pretty well and each car was checked before going on the track. I can not say I ever seen anyone ever get busted for an opened motor.

I think Mel's idea would be the best, IF, you could figure out was way to make code that had the same specs for all guns that people would be using. Placing a tamper proof seal over the programming port and let them play the event.

I think the industry just needs to go back to one ball per pull and max ROF at 13bps. Then make sure that every board coming from the factory comes with legal software and that at events every gun is reflashed and sealed. Is this possible? Not likely.

shatter_storm

01-17-2005, 07:19 PM

But if there is a universally accepted "standard board" then maybe this idea is a plausible one. Have the players put whatever software they want. Let them assume the liability.

But come major tourney time, reflash everything to "legal" and put some kind of checkable seal on the port.

Let the outside world see a more concrete effort to enhance safety in our sport.

So who's making this universally accepted "standard board", and how are you going to get the manufacturers to accept it? Who in the industry is trusted enough and large enough to build that board and have people/companies accept it? SmartParts? WDP? K2? WAS?

I know if I owned a company that made pb markers I wouldn't submit to buying a "standard board", especially if it's one of the big PB giants that makes it. It amounts to a tax on paintball markers payable to whoever makes the board, and I wouldn't want to deal with that in addition to all the patent issues being dealt with in the industry.

Another issue is that with a standard board that people can reflash with whatever software they want, what's stopping *EVERYONE* from having a secret-code-locked ramping monster that they unleash on their friends at the local field? Yeah, it'll never pass tournament inspection, but most people don't play at tournaments! I heard a quote someplace that tournament players make up 2% of the paintball playing population - that number is probably a bit low. I heard another that the figure is someplace around 20%, which sounds a bit high to me.. Either way you slice it though, most of the paintball being played is woodsball, scenario ball, outlaw ball, or at a local field during casual or walk-on days. The game as a whole needs to be as safe as possible, but kids playing in their backyard arn't going to follow the same safety rules. "Sure, debounce 1 is fine, who cares... there's no ref here"

It's a nice idea, don't get me wrong, but it'll never take off unless there's an agency with the power and organization to enforce that sort of move, and enforce it to every manufacturer and every field and every player that goes out in the woods to shoot up their friends.

hitech

01-17-2005, 07:20 PM

But if there is a universally accepted "standard board" then maybe this idea is a plausible one. Have the players put whatever software they want. Let them assume the liability.

But come major tourney time, reflash everything to "legal" and put some kind of checkable seal on the port.

And I can still build a cheater board for the eMag. It won't even be housed within the marker. Even if housed within the marker it won't be affected at all by reflashing the markers computer board. And with other markers reflashing the board and "sealing" won't do any good either. The cheater board would also be separate from the main computer board. And with the eMag, the marker could be entirely legal until it is "in my hands". ;)

Let the outside world see a more concrete effort to enhance safety in our sport.

There is some value in that. :D

On the velocity issue. The maximum allowed velocity should match the conditions. If the field is short and most of the shots occur close up, the max. velocity needs to be less. If the field is larger and more spread out the velocity needs to be higher. Lowering the velocity on larger fields can actually be more dangerous, IMO. For the game at Fort Ord they lowered the max. velocity to 260 as they were worried that most of the shooting was going to be from one side of a house to the other. The problem with the lower velocity is that it necessitated closer ranges. The shooting was much closer because of the lowered velocities. Had they stuck with 290-280 or so, the shooting would have been more across the streets, instead of around a corner.

:cheers:

teufelhunden

01-17-2005, 07:23 PM

hitech.. only on an E-Mag tho. You'd be hard pressed manipulating the HES on guns that don't have one ;)

hitech

01-17-2005, 07:30 PM

hitech.. Only on an E-Mag though. You'd be hard pressed manipulating the HES on guns that don't have one ;)

That is true. :D However, "you" could still build a cheater board that is separate from the main computer board. It would only need to be connected at the trigger input. It would be very small and easy to hide. It might even be possible to hide it in the switch itself. It seems very reasonable to expect that someone could build one that wouldn't be detectable at all by tournaments run ANYTHING like they are now. ;)

RRfireblade

01-17-2005, 07:31 PM

Not going to read the whole thing, just a quick response to the basic overview.

Vast malority of Paintball injuries happen "in the woods'. Make the FPS 100 and it will have zero effect on those guys.Cap the ROF at 10bps...will have zero effect on those guys.You can't legislate stupidity. Oh you can try...but it doesn't work.

Drunk drivers still drive drunk,people still don't use seat belts,smoke cigarrettes,eat unproportional amounts of fat and so on. In fact as the population eveolves, IMO, it only gets worse.

And...

never ever going to see a 'universal' board or programming software agreed apon by the 'industry' in our 'effective' lifetime if ever at all.

moed59

01-17-2005, 07:38 PM

now if you get shot by some idiot shooting 26 bps you might be lucky to only get hit 7 times.Hey thats great for tournys because i dont play in them and if thats what they want fine. I played at a local feild for the first time in a while and was amazed by the rate of fire these guys where hitting, i was thinking to myself how can you shoot that fast with one finger well you cant unless you feather it or walk it with 2 or 3 fingers. Then i was looking deeper and i saw a guy with an angel move his fingers and then he stoped moving his fingers and the gun was still shooting whats up with that. Im sure ther are alot of new cheat boards ive been reading here and there i dont know much about it yet, but i think there should be a cap why do you really need to shoot 20 bps why dont you just play full automode whats the point of having a semi? I can care less about be shot by a paintball its just the 8 others that hit me right after that piss me off. And as far as safty(one guy beating another guy badly because he got over shot) there would be less fights from walk on amatuers and team pros playing against each other. Keep that in the tourny and not in the walk on games. I spar and fight with some of K1 kickboxing greats like MIGHTYMO and i would never feel happy or proud that i just beat down some amatuer nobody. You get that with some of these tourny players playing against walk ons. my 2cents

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 07:47 PM

I know if I owned a company that made pb markers I wouldn't submit to buying a "standard board", especially if it's one of the big PB giants that makes it. It amounts to a tax on paintball markers payable to whoever makes the board, and I wouldn't want to deal with that in addition to all the patent issues being dealt with in the industry...........

It's a nice idea, don't get me wrong, but it'll never take off unless there's an agency with the power and organization to enforce that sort of move, and enforce it to every manufacturer and every field and every player that goes out in the woods to shoot up their friends.

Can the ASTM Sub-committee for paintball, play a role in safeguarding the future of the sport? They know what needs to get done. The problem that exists is that they have neither the muscle nor the political consensus to enact the corrective measure that they know they need to enact.

Will the manufacturers see that it is in their own long-term best interest to act collectively in conjunction with the ASTM sub-committee and find a solution? Can they subvert their egos and prevent a potential catastrophe from happening? My guess, probably not. Their drive to compete in a market place predicated on a self-perpetuating arms race won't allow them to.

Can the Players see that if they feed the supply with their demand for faster shooting guns and cheater boards, that they themselves are driving their own demise?

I believe that there are just too many divergent interests and not enough common ground to facilitate a solution to this problem.
What you have just said is but one part of the overall dilema.

But as for the "Standard Board", let the players do what they want, let the manufacturers or aftermarket people assume the liability by being the sellers of that type of 'illegal' board and in essence absolve the industry as a whole. But come major tourney time, show the outside world that we are attempting to insitute regulations that enhances safety.

manike

01-17-2005, 07:47 PM

Nobody cares.

Absolute RUBBISH.

I've been saying for years that paintball is starting to get too dangerous, and nobody cares.

People care about safety, but few people listen to you because you have no basis of facts to back up your opinion. Yes there has been more injuries in "paintball" but there are more people playing. Obviously more people playing means more injuries even if the percentages stay the same.

I believe the 'injuries' per participant hasn't changed, in fact IIRC it's gone down.

Your statement is like saying "cars are more dangerous now than they were 50 years ago"

Of course they are, in some respects, they are faster and there are more of them on the road. But in accidents the occupants or victims are less likely to be hurt.

It won't matter if you lower the FPS, you've still got multiple projectiles in the air at any time,

I'd like to see ANY proof you have of that being less safe. Any facts would be nice. :rolleyes: Your opinion doesn't count on it being an issue unless you have facts to back it up.

"Barrel sock" system is still dependant on the end user's judgement on when to throw it away becasue the ends are frayed out. (Assuming that the barrel sock will STOP a runaway trigger at 20 BPS for 5 seconds...)

There are processes in place to make BBD's safer. BBD's have been continually developed and implemented through our sports history to keep up with the guns. It's still happening.

The industry doesn't care, because they make money when playrs buy faster guns and more paint.

If you REALLY think those of us in the industry don't care about safety then I'm stunned. The safety of our sport is paramount to maintaining the industry. I would estimate at least 60% of my time last year was directly dedicated to improving the safety of products and the industry. I am concerned about safety because it protects this industry, the company I work for, my job, and ultimately my lifestyle. I'm also a player. It concerns me on all levels on all fronts.

YOU just don't see it because not everyone believes your opinion of the 'sky falling in'.

Nobody in the industry will care until something happens.

That's such rubbish it's laughable. The pre-emptive measures we take to make things safer is huge. Again you just don't see it, partly because you don't know about it, and partly because you don't care to look for it.

Like some guy gets torched point blank and has permanent nerve damage from multiple impacts and sues the industry for willingly creating the circumstances to allow that to happen. Or even more fun, some kid is bunkered from a ramping gun, 15+ shots in the neck or kidneys in less than a second. Then we'll all act surprised, like we didn't see anything like this coming.

Got ANY proof that multiple impacts are less safe than single? Who's to say even when multiple impacts occur, that it wasn't just one of them hitting the right spot that caused a problem? Are you a doctor? have you studied impacts? Nope you are just a scaremongerer.

As long as the money machine is rolling, nobody will care.

Again this is ABSOLUTE rubbish... if only you knew how many gun designs I've been banned from making because they were 'too dangerous' in a fall. :rofl: You just want to have this nasty opinion of the industry and your blinded to the truth.

(p.s. The Empire, Russian Legion, and Lasoya guns ALL had changes to the body style because of safety concerns!) It cost more money and time to make the changes, but it happened because we look at every product from a safety point of view.

We discuss safety daily at work.

It's up to the "powers that be" to set the rules so they can perform within safe parameters.

And we do and we make sure we stay within them. The only issue I see is that we differ on what we think is safe. I know I test my hypotheses' and products and follow ASTM and toy regulations in product design. How do you come up with your opinion?

Just because "nothing has happened yet" does not mean it never will.

The only thing I agree with. :D We can't stop all freak accidents, and you can never think of all possible issues or cover all possible bases.

But we ARE trying and WE DO CARE. :cheers:

manike

01-17-2005, 07:48 PM

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 07:57 PM

Good thought provoking thread......this is what AO should be about!!!. Keep 'em coming boys!

Simon, you da man...lol.

Tyger

01-17-2005, 08:13 PM

Cheater boards can be too easily hidden.

Maybe what is needed, is a board that can be flashed with legal software, right at the feild. This way, no one can smuggle in illegal software.

This way, everyone is on equal ground.

OF course this is by no means fool-proof, but I think that is would make it extremely difficult to get around the ROF rules.

just off the top of my head, I can see more than a few cheats. Bring my own laptop and re-flash the board. Put in a dummy board that gets flashed while the real one stays illegal. Or just have two guns.

Until we have a "tournament gun" spec sheet that says "all paintguns must adhere to the following criteria, any other modifications is immediate ejection from the event with no refund" there's no point in even talking about gun cheats.

Why, YES! The industry / tournament series needs to grow a pair! :dance: :wow: :spit_take

-Tyger

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 08:22 PM

So what now? In a comment I made earlier in connection with a rant on ROF, I specifically laid out that the industry and the sport have too many divergent interests and no universally accepted governing body to mandate the necessary corrective measures. As an example of this, take a look at the NPPL and who sits on the Rules Committee. I believe Mr. Ged Green, owner of WDP, is a member of that committee. If the NPPL is to be looked upon by us as one of the guiding forces in the industry when it comes to generally accepted rules, can they under the leadership of Chuck Hendsch enact rules that may be perceived as contrary to WDP's best interest? Can these two gentlemen separate the political issues that govern their participation in the sport and just focus in on doing what's in the best interest of all?

Why, YES! The industry / tournament series needs to grow a pair! :dance: :wow: :spit_take

It isn't growing a "pair" or the lack of publicly stated conviction to do what's best for the sport. It's the willingness to separate one's personal interest for the betterment of the whole. Such self-sacrificing ways isn't all too common in most parts of our soceity. Let alone in paintball.

gc82000

01-17-2005, 08:27 PM

Problem Solved!

http://www.blowgunsnw.com/wr3c.jpg

but how would you limit the velocity on this???
:P

Lohman446

01-17-2005, 08:28 PM

We have used the NASCAR analogy more than once, so lets go with that.

In the late 60s and early 70s stock car racing was just that - as long as the factory produced it you bolted on some safety equipment and played. Then the factories started playing... there were literally Corvettes produced and sold to the public that the brakes would not work until warmed up. Think of all the Hemi cars shot out by Chrysler that were race cars.. designed as such, built as such, and just enough produced to qualify as production cars The factories promoted NASCAR, the factories produced to NASCAR, NASCAR was afraid to stand up to teh factories and things were getting out of control.

It is where I see paintball as now. Until a league can stand on its own - with support from outside the paintball world and the ability to tell the manufacturers that get out of hand to "stick it" we are going to be in for this ride. Until the leagues check it or a court checks it.

Look at NASCAR now. Your car is teched before the race, and if you win it is taken directly to the shop for more teching. Your going to have to do this with markers... you win the tournament your markers are subject to lengthy inspection for cheats... because we know that cheats are out there.

The problem is, the leagues are still dependent on those they set the rules for. This needs to be overcome somehow. Note that i have no idea how at this point, but we are discussing what we need to aim for now, not the individual steps. It can be done.

The problem is, everyone expects every tournament to be the NASCAR of PB. Think boys, if I go to the local circle track.. those rules are mearly suggestions, they don't have the ability to tech check things like NASCAR does. This is the other thing PB has to get over. We need a league for smaller ones to aspire too... but dont expect everything from everyone.

hitech

01-17-2005, 08:32 PM

We have used the NASCAR analogy more than once, so lets go with that...

To that entire post, all I have to say is...

:hail:

:cheers:

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 08:33 PM

but how would you limit the velocity on this???
:P
Although I do appreciate the humor, this thread is intended to be a thought provoking one. The initial post has been made and this one lack both originality and intellect that this thread should be about. Perhaps PBN would be a more appropriate forum for you to visit.

Good luck and best regards.

BTW Lohman, good anology. I'm not up to speed on NASCAR history but if that is indeed the case, then I do see the parallel issues.

Tyger

01-17-2005, 08:38 PM

Absolute RUBBISH.
...
I'd like to see ANY proof you have of that being less safe. Any facts would be nice. :rolleyes: Your opinion doesn't count on it being an issue unless you have facts to back it up.

There are processes in place to make BBD's safer. BBD's have been continually developed and implemented through our sports history to keep up with the guns. It's still happening.

If you REALLY think those of us in the industry don't care about safety then I'm stunned.
...
YOU just don't see it because not everyone believes your opinion of the 'sky falling in'.
...
Got ANY proof that multiple impacts are less safe than single? Who's to say even when multiple impacts occur, that it wasn't just one of them hitting the right spot that caused a problem? Are you a doctor? have you studied impacts? Nope you are just a scaremongerer.
...
But we ARE trying and WE DO CARE. :cheers:

Manike, right now I'm really not in the mood for an internet fight. But, since you seem want one, I'll oblige.

No, I honeslty do not believe that most (perhaps I should emphasise that word from now on) companies rally give a rat's tail about my safety on a field of play. I know for a fact most referees do not, I can tell you most fields don't, I can tell you through implication that most companies seem to not care either. If somoene pays the money, they can get a device that they might or might not be able to control.

It's been my expirence in the last 4-5 years that I've seen more people inured in paintball than before. Both refs and players dropped to the ground unconcious DIRECTLY because of multiple impacts. Skyball last year, for example, a ref was KO'd by a player near the end of the event. Up to that time I'd never seen with my own eyes somoene dropped unconcious from paintball strikes. It's been repeated in the last few years, and there's at least one pro player who brags that he loves to knock people unconcious by overshooting to the head (It was in a PGI interview).

Alternatively, can you show me evidence and proof that it's perfectly OK to take 15 BPS to the back of the head, kidneys, and so on? No, nobodys DONE that kind of research. And I certainly do not have the money to sink into it, nor am I interested in causing permanent damage to my own nerves for research. Am I a "Scaremonger"? No, I'm a realist. The law of probability dictates that if something is POSSIBLE, then it can happen.

The BBD issue was proven to me with the CCP lawsuit, which came down to negligence. Somoene didn't replace a BBD that ultimately failed. That's human error, a lack of someone taking the time to give a flying ...act. So it's more than probable that it can not only happen again, but it will. MY safety at a field is dictated NOT by my actions, but by the actions of other people. I do not want to lose an eye becasue somoene was too cheap to spend $5 on a new BBD, and that's out of my realm of control.

By the same token, MY SAFETY on a paintball field falls into the hands of my opponents. I do not know if a player is running a ramping board, or a full auto board, or in fact if they have a board that creates any number of cheats. If one of them has a runaway board and they "accidentally" shoot 20 balls per second and causes nerve damage, will they say "Oh, oops, sorry dude" and all is better? And why did they buy that board? The industry crammed BPS=BETTER down their throats through advertizing and tournament structures. Then the players spend the $150+ on the new board and software which makes someone money. And that had to come from somewhere. SOMEONE in the industry sat down and said "Oh! you know, they want faster shooting paintguns! It might be a little unsafe, but who cares! We can sell a few thousand before the legal ramifications hit." Seen it before, it'll happen again. I may be jaded, but I'm never dissapointed by what happens.

As far as I'm concerned, there's only a few companies who actually care for the people who play, and not just look at the sport as a cash cow. And is the sky falling in? I didn't say that. I just said that it's plausable that I can be injured becasue of a ramping board, because nobody freakin' cares. Not the players, the fields, the rules, nor the companies. Give the players what they want, to hell with the reprecussions. And if you and your company does care, then prove it to me. Talk is cheap, actions speak louder. I'm a hard sell, but I'm open to listen.

-Tyger (I am so not in the mood for this right now)

ubooze

01-17-2005, 08:42 PM

But by having this universal board or software, you also come back to the problem. Tweaking your equipement and equiping yourself with parts that give you an edge are a major part of the game.

Thats why I think capped boards in tourneys is really a shame. Some people are naturally able to shoot faster than others. Some pople can adjust their gear to shoot extermely fast. By putting a cap on the speed, you are hindering their talent, their "edge" if you will.

ANY solution for a universal board or program would negate this advantage or expose it to more risk.

A] Like Tyger said, there is always a chance someone uses a dummy board or another gun.
B] Boards could be switched out between the flashing/handing out of boards and the game.

How bout setting up a coral? Hand out that board, watch as they program it or flash it so that the various parameters are let alone, and all other "extras" are erased. Then take the gun and quarentine the gun until game-time, and then regather them afterwards. But then again, no one would agree to give their guns into some else's care. CHnaces are it could be sabatoged or tampered with.

So the only option would be to train refs, implement robots, and penalize players heavily. I say if your caught cheating, then your out for tourney. Set down the law and live up to it.

Other then that, I can't figure out of another solution.

Edit: How about tamper proof boards that are approved by the league? I can't think of a way to do it right now, but I'll try.

Edit 2: Universal board idea. The league has several serialized boards, which are passed out randomly to players at the beginning of the event/day/game. Use some other method of identifiaction as well, like those RFID(information imbedded in the label) labels as well to check authenticity. Then, apply this to a aluminum or steel container that holds the board( I am thinking morlock here for its small size) and red loc-tite the end-cap so noone will be able to change it very easily at the tourney. The player can then adjust the guns using the trigger and LED as he likes. Before each game they are asked to show their authentic board, and get the label scanned with the handheld RFID/barcode scanner. At the end of the last game, the boards are collected before they leave the field. At this point the boards are taken in, hooked up to an analyzer, and double check for any foreign code that may have been maliciously inserted. And since the boards are assigned to one player for the entire tourney/day, they can be punished repectively.

It'll be tooo expensive that way tooo, so I'm stumped.

Jimbud

01-17-2005, 08:43 PM

The only way to make any meaningful changes in this sport is to get the major Tournament series to change and enforce their rules.

like it or not tourney play drives the direction of paintball.

Insane rof, ramping, cheater boards, they have all trickled down to local tourneys and rec ball due to their use in the major tourney series.

If the major tourneys ALL ENFORCED a bps cap of say 12 bps and mandated that all markers were ASTM complaint, most if not all electro markers would come from the factory with bps limited, ASTM complaint boards.

And it would become the defacto standard for rec ball.

And since factory markers would be compliant. By default the "Walmart Warriors" would have safer markers too.

Would some people still cheat? Of course they would! But they would be a tiny minority

A player that showed up to play rec ball with a ramping cheater gun would be as unwelcome as the player that try's to shoot 330 fps.

The best example I can come up with of this in action is Bass Fishing.

Back when Tournament Bass fishing first started the common practice was to keep and kill all the fish caught.

They pretty quickly realized that the were quite literally killing their sport. So they changed their rules to live weigh ins and popularized catch and release bass fishing.
This then trickled down to the local level.

Now even recreational Bass fisherman ALMOST NEVER keep fish!

Until the powers that be in the NPPL / NXL ect. realize that they have the future of this sport in their hands. And decide to put the good of the sport above their personal gain nothing will change. And in fact things will continue to spiral out of control. Until Paintball finally collapses under the weight of it own arrogance.

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 08:54 PM

Can the Players see that if they feed the supply with their demand for faster shooting guns and cheater boards, that they themselves are driving their own demise?

Tyger, I appreciate your position and it is exactly that which is part of our collective dilemma.

Perhaps the mitigating factor would be the notion of who assumes the liability. If the manufacturers collectively say, "this is a standard board that can legitemately compete in the NPPL/PSP" and not cap the ROF because we all know no can really physically hit those numbers without assistance anyway.....then the after-market guys would feed the demand for cheater boards because there is still a demand for them to do so.

Now let's imagine if you will that SP and WDP obliges (not that it will necessarily happen ;) ) and sets the licensing fee for those after-market board manufacturers at an exhorbitantly high price then deligently enforce their patents. The net effect then would be the cost being passed down to the consumer who now must pay $500 for that "cheater" board. When that happens, do you think that it would minimize the proliferation of cheater boards all together?

What are your thoughts on this?

manike

01-17-2005, 08:55 PM

Manike, right now I'm really not in the mood for an internet fight. But, since you seem want one, I'll oblige.

No, I honeslty do not believe that most (perhaps I should emphasise that word from now on) companies rally give a rat's tail about my safety on a field of play. I know for a fact most referees do not, I can tell you most fields don't, I can tell you through implication that most companies seem to not care either. If somoene pays the money, they can get a device that they might or might not be able to control.

It's been my expirence in the last 4-5 years that I've seen more people inured in paintball than before. Both refs and players dropped to the ground unconcious DIRECTLY because of multiple impacts. Skyball last year, for example, a ref was KO'd by a player near the end of the event. Up to that time I'd never seen with my own eyes somoene dropped unconcious from paintball strikes. It's been repeated in the last few years, and there's at least one pro player who brags that he loves to knock people unconcious by overshooting to the head (It was in a PGI interview).

Alternatively, can you show me evidence and proof that it's perfectly OK to take 15 BPS to the back of the head, kidneys, and so on? No, nobodys DONE that kind of research. And I certainly do not have the money to sink into it, nor am I interested in causing permanent damage to my own nerves for research. Am I a "Scaremonger"? No, I'm a realist. The law of probability dictates that if something is POSSIBLE, then it can happen.

The BBD issue was proven to me with the CCP lawsuit, which came down to negligence. Somoene didn't replace a BBD that ultimately failed. That's human error, a lack of someone taking the time to give a flying ...act. So it's more than probable that it can not only happen again, but it will. MY safety at a field is dictated NOT by my actions, but by the actions of other people. I do not want to lose an eye becasue somoene was too cheap to spend $5 on a new BBD, and that's out of my realm of control.

By the same token, MY SAFETY on a paintball field falls into the hands of my opponents. I do not know if a player is running a ramping board, or a full auto board, or in fact if they have a board that creates any number of cheats. If one of them has a runaway board and they "accidentally" shoot 20 balls per second and causes nerve damage, will they say "Oh, oops, sorry dude" and all is better? And why did they buy that board? The industry crammed BPS=BETTER down their throats through advertizing and tournament structures. Then the players spend the $150+ on the new board and software which makes someone money. And that had to come from somewhere. SOMEONE in the industry sat down and said "Oh! you know, they want faster shooting paintguns! It might be a little unsafe, but who cares! We can sell a few thousand before the legal ramifications hit." Seen it before, it'll happen again. I may be jaded, but I'm never dissapointed by what happens.

As far as I'm concerned, there's only a few companies who actually care for the people who play, and not just look at the sport as a cash cow. And is the sky falling in? I didn't say that. I just said that it's plausable that I can be injured becasue of a ramping board, because nobody freakin' cares. Not the players, the fields, the rules, nor the companies. Give the players what they want, to hell with the reprecussions. And if you and your company does care, then prove it to me. Talk is cheap, actions speak louder. I'm a hard sell, but I'm open to listen.

-Tyger (I am so not in the mood for this right now)

Tyger there will always be a number of incidents that 'happen'. As said before, we can't stop everything and we can't prevent idiots being idiots. But your post rubbed me the wrong way because you say that 'NO-ONE' in the industry cares and that just isn't true.

You give great examples of where 'people' have failed. Does that mean you have to judge everyone and everything by their examples?

So some people don't care. Does that mean everyone doesn't care?

It's like saying some paintballers cheat so they all do. Or some paintball players have ramping boards so they all do...

Do you cheat? Do you have a ramping board?

Nope. See why it sucks to be lumped in with a minority?

However many times I design a great BBD, is it my fault when a stupid field owner doesn't replace them when worn? or doesn't enforce safety like he should? does it mean I failed in designing a safety device that would have worked were it implemented as intended? Does it mean I don't care?

NO. So don't blame an entire industry for a relatively small number of incidents and stupid people and write us off as not caring or trying to do anything about it.

I can't disclose all of the safety items I've worked on, not all will 'bare my name' but in the next couple of months you will see products that are aimed directly towards making paintball safer, and I'm proud to have been even a small part in getting them out.

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 09:00 PM

Thats why I think capped boards in tourneys is really a shame. Some people are naturally able to shoot faster than others. Some pople can adjust their gear to shoot extermely fast. By putting a cap on the speed, you are hindering their talent, their "edge" if you will.An uncapped pure semi board with inspection ports would make sure the trully talented guys who can pull 18bps remain above those with less talent. That indeed would be a good thing for the sport.

Good post Ubooze!

Lohman446

01-17-2005, 09:01 PM

Manike, right now I'm really not in the mood for an internet fight. But, since you seem want one, I'll oblige.

I'm not looking for a fight Tyger, I'm looking for a discussion. I realize that comment, by name was not directed at me but I want this discussion, and you seem to me to be one end of the spectrum. Face it, great ideas come from the ends of spectrums, they just sometimes need to be tempered a bit.

No, I honeslty do not believe that most (perhaps I should emphasise that word from now on) companies rally give a rat's tail about my safety on a field of play. I know for a fact most referees do not, I can tell you most fields don't, I can tell you through implication that most companies seem to not care either. If somoene pays the money, they can get a device that they might or might not be able to control.

Let me say that I disagree with you on the basis for this comment. I do beleive that more than less PB companies, fields, and refs care about the overall safety. Competently and well are different discussions. That disagreement being stated let me take your statement as true at face value for discussion sake. We need to form ourselves a governing body AND LISTEN TO THEM. We need a "seal" that paitnball players look for that deems things to be within acceptable standards. Underwriter Labs for instance if you want an outside of paintabll example. Lets call this governing body the PBSA - paintball safety association for this discussion. I realize it does not exist. But lets discuss what our goals are.

It's been my expirence in the last 4-5 years that I've seen more people inured in paintball than before. Both refs and players dropped to the ground unconcious DIRECTLY because of multiple impacts. Skyball last year, for example, a ref was KO'd by a player near the end of the event. Up to that time I'd never seen with my own eyes somoene dropped unconcious from paintball strikes. It's been repeated in the last few years, and there's at least one pro player who brags that he loves to knock people unconcious by overshooting to the head (It was in a PGI interview).

I remember an exception linebacker, or free safety who one time made a comment that he was going to take down Favre. It was last year. Noone thought anything about it, people talk big all the time. He did it, and he was fined.. a slap on the wrist that was really not acceptable to me it should have been worse. Just for the record I am not a Packers fan, I like football but no certain team. People talk trash for any number of reasons... and we have allowed it in sports. The cause of these multiple impacts should be addressed.

Alternatively, can you show me evidence and proof that it's perfectly OK to take 15 BPS to the back of the head, kidneys, and so on? No, nobodys DONE that kind of research. And I certainly do not have the money to sink into it, nor am I interested in causing permanent damage to my own nerves for research. Am I a "Scaremonger"? No, I'm a realist. The law of probability dictates that if something is POSSIBLE, then it can happen.

No.. I cannot, nor can you show me proof that 15 shots to any of those areas, under normal velocity from a 3 gram projectile is necessarily seriously dangerous. Just for the record, I am in favor of a "rebound" mode like SP has come up with, and I think it was a compromise. Rebound is not just "accidentally" set off - not like low debounce can be. I use rebound regularly and I have NEVER overshot someone in anything but long lanes.

The BBD issue was proven to me with the CCP lawsuit, which came down to negligence. Somoene didn't replace a BBD that ultimately failed. That's human error, a lack of someone taking the time to give a flying ...act. So it's more than probable that it can not only happen again, but it will. MY safety at a field is dictated NOT by my actions, but by the actions of other people. I do not want to lose an eye becasue somoene was too cheap to spend $5 on a new BBD, and that's out of my realm of control.

This was stupidity of a series of people. I don;t think it is reminiscant of every field. Most fields I see do replace barrel socks when they need to be. Agreed hat we should inspect player safety equipment better...

By the same token, MY SAFETY on a paintball field falls into the hands of my opponents. I do not know if a player is running a ramping board, or a full auto board, or in fact if they have a board that creates any number of cheats. If one of them has a runaway board and they "accidentally" shoot 20 balls per second and causes nerve damage, will they say "Oh, oops, sorry dude" and all is better? And why did they buy that board? The industry crammed BPS=BETTER down their throats through advertizing and tournament structures. Then the players spend the $150+ on the new board and software which makes someone money. And that had to come from somewhere. SOMEONE in the industry sat down and said "Oh! you know, they want faster shooting paintguns! It might be a little unsafe, but who cares! We can sell a few thousand before the legal ramifications hit." Seen it before, it'll happen again. I may be jaded, but I'm never dissapointed by what happens.
See above, I would rather have ramp than low debounce or mechanical bounce. Velocity cheats need to somehow be made unacceptable... However... somethings that people have called ramp (shot, not velocity) are just auto-triggers x 32.... controlled ramp to me is a step forward in BPS with a consideration to safety

As far as I'm concerned, there's only a few companies who actually care for the people who play, and not just look at the sport as a cash cow. And is the sky falling in? I didn't say that. I just said that it's plausable that I can be injured becasue of a ramping board, because nobody freakin' cares. Not the players, the fields, the rules, nor the companies. Give the players what they want, to hell with the reprecussions. And if you and your company does care, then prove it to me. Talk is cheap, actions speak louder. I'm a hard sell, but I'm open to listen.

Rebound.. I keep going back to this example. Somewhere rebound was a compromise. The 15BPS they did not just pull out of the air (I hope). I think there was someone who looked into this, who came up with the NXL rules that have made various rebound modes popular.

Theres better money elsewhere ... Paintabll is inherently a dangerous market, because as you stated above some idiot somewhere is going to do something stupid with your product and you are going to end up paying off nuisance lawsuits - or mroe serious ones

Tyger

01-17-2005, 09:09 PM

Tyger there will always be a number of incidents that 'happen'. As said before, we can't stop everything and we can't prevent idiots being idiots. But your post rubbed me the wrong way because you say that 'NO-ONE' in the industry cares and that just isn't true.

You give great examples of where 'people' have failed. Does that mean you have to judge everyone and everything by their examples?

Even if I don't, the rest of the world WILL.

WHY put tools into the hands of idiots? WHY give people the capability to be moron? Accountability does not end at point of sale! As far as I've seen, industry follows the money regardless of other factors. And as far as I'm concerned, the industry does not care what happens to the players. A new breed crops up every 3-5 years anyway, so who cares about the reprecussions or long term effects?

And so far, I haven't seen any long term thinking in paintball. What's "too dangerous" now will be "retro" in 4 years. Anyone else remember when 13.5 PBS was considered almost too fast? Now you're "Slow" if you can't pull that fast.

Sometimes in the consideration of safety you have to make rules the athletes won't like. Hockey players don't like wearing helmets, but they do so becasue they have to. NASCAR drivers hate restrictor plates, football players dont like the face grills... If the NPPL said "Solid cap 10 BPS", the players would cry and moan, and still show up to play.

-Tyger

hitech

01-17-2005, 09:09 PM

An uncapped pure semi board with inspection ports would make sure the trully talented guys who can pull 18bps remain above those with less talent.

I have to disagree. When it comes to "pulling" a trigger fast, I am not talented. Not at all. However, I can obtain 16 BPS on what I believe is a fully ASTM compliant eMag without any trouble at all. A little practice and I can hit 18. In game situations, with a little adrenalin, 18 isn't very difficult. And I can teach it to just about anyone.

BTW, I call it the manike raking technique. ;)

phantomhitman

01-17-2005, 09:10 PM

you will never, and i do mean NEVER, solve the fps and bps arguement. there are too many factors on the equipment, as well as hands in the cookie jar, to solve that. until one company creates an equal board for every single electro out there the cheaters-rampers-bouncers-debouncers-and coders will live on. after the board is created you need a way to check a gun when it comes onto the field to play, which could be expensive or time consuming.

or you could just hand out 12 volt revys when people come onto the field of play. no matter how much they cheat the loader will not agree :D this is the cheapest, most effective way that i see.

ubooze

01-17-2005, 09:12 PM

An uncapped pure semi board with inspection ports would make sure the trully talented guys who can pull 18bps remain above those with less talent. That indeed would be a good thing for the sport.

Good post Ubooze!

But how could that be done? Whats to say the board can't be dual-booted or some other garbage like that? Unless the bored is totally tamper-proof or regulated extensively by the authority(quarentine the board) then there shall always be a chance that it will be manipulated.

I mean, we have come to a conclusion of what needs to be done. Boards must be watched and safety enforced, which it is, to a certain extent. Maybe not totally like Tyger mentions, but its being worked on and HOPEFULLY will be achieved to the greatest extent the people can.

Every other solution besides the capped boards brings in some sort of inconvenience. As a result, the people who cannot legitemately attain 18+ BPS will complain, and it probably won't work.

What we need to focus on is a method through which this board could be executed. From what I remeber, WDP tried, but that failed. Safety cannot really be improved on by the companies. Thats in the hands of the players, the fields, and the refs.

manike

01-17-2005, 09:18 PM

Even if I don't, the rest of the world WILL.-Tyger

Right. :rolleyes:

So everyone that owns a gun is a murderer.

Everyone that owns a baseball bat is going to use it smack someone in the head.

Everyone that owns an axe is an axe murderer.

WHY put tools into the hands of idiots? WHY give people the capability to be moron?

Are you serious? You live in a free country called America. And you are really asking this?

Do you want to limit people's freedoms and rights?

And as far as I'm concerned, the industry does not care what happens to the players.

That's a very selfish opinion and sums this up. It's your opinon and you are sticking to it. Fine. Doesn't make it true or right though.

And so far, I haven't seen any long term thinking in paintball. What's "too dangerous" now will be "retro" in 4 years. Anyone else remember when 13.5 PBS was considered almost too fast? Now you're "Slow" if you can't pull that fast.

??? Because it doesn't agree with your opinion it's dangerous, and not long thinking?

Were you one of the guys that thought putting a pump on a Nelspot was 'too dangerous' and shortsighted?

Were you one of the guys that thought having semi's were 'too dangerous' and short sighted?'

Were you one of the guys that thought having compressed nitrogen systems were 'too dangerous' and short sighted?

I'll bet you were. And you haven't been proven right yet.

MindJob

01-17-2005, 09:22 PM

just off the top of my head, I can see more than a few cheats. Bring my own laptop and re-flash the board. Put in a dummy board that gets flashed while the real one stays illegal. Or just have two guns.

Until we have a "tournament gun" spec sheet that says "all paintguns must adhere to the following criteria, any other modifications is immediate ejection from the event with no refund" there's no point in even talking about gun cheats.

Why, YES! The industry / tournament series needs to grow a pair! :dance: :wow: :spit_take

-Tyger

You could put a numbered 'seal' of some sort on the marker once it is flashed. I am in logistics, and every trailer that comes in or out of my facility has an indiviual seal on it. If the seal is off, or, if a different one is on, then something is up.

It wouldnt be difficult to make a grip frame, or modify existing ones, with some sort of seal or other method to be able to determine if it has been tampered with AFTER a flashing. After an event, the seal could easily be removed by the gun owner.

There are solutions to this issue, as stated, its time for the industry to grow a pair... Then the same brilliant minds that created all of these wonderful paintguns can focus and concentrate on this problem.

ubooze

01-17-2005, 09:22 PM

Sometimes in the consideration of safety you have to make rules the athletes won't like. Hockey players don't like wearing helmets, but they do so becasue they have to. NASCAR drivers hate restrictor plates, football players dont like the face grills... If the NPPL said "Solid cap 10 BPS", the players would cry and moan, and still show up to play.

-Tyger

But this is different Tyger. In paintball, but emplacing a cap you are limiting people's edge over the competition. We aren't talking about necessary safety featuresd, we have that, and we can use that. We have masks, and BBDs, and neck protectors, and full head gaurds. That can and ought to be enforced. But emplacing a cap is just straight wrong. I mean, you can shoot 18 BPS with your Timmy or whatnot, but the other guy can hit 20 or more in his DM4. That makes him more talented and faster. Your are hindering his advantage.

So maybe it shouldn't be the issue of capping the guns, but new safety standards. High ROF and lotsa paint is the way this all evolved. Its how it has grown to be. Maybe we need full-head gear and secure straps and more pads as mandatory on players. In fencing, you are usually checked to have at least 2-layers or protection so that you don't get severly whipped. Your blade is checked not to activate too early or bend to much. BUT if you can swing well enough to bend that blade, its YOUR advatage.

MindJob

01-17-2005, 09:25 PM

This is perhaps one of the best suggestions I've heard. The problem is, will the manufacturers comply. I can see Dave the NPPL Scrutineer run away with an idea like this. Great idea.

Hey, make sure I get credited
:rofl:

(or at least a few free passed to PBX :cheers: )

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 09:30 PM

Folks, let's keep in mind that the dramatic increase in paint consumption was actually the catalyst that allowed the industry to take advantage of the economies of scale. Thus making it cheaper to play now than two years ago and five years before that.

Just food for thought.

manike

01-17-2005, 09:31 PM

So maybe it shouldn't be the issue of capping the guns, but new safety standards. High ROF and lotsa paint is the way this all evolved. Its how it has grown to be. Maybe we need full-head gear and secure straps and more pads as mandatory on players. In fencing, you are usually check to have at least 2-layers or protection so that you don't get severly whipped. You blade is checked not to activate to early or bend to much. BUT if you can swing well enough to bend that blade, its YOUR advatage.

:hail: :cheers:

phantomhitman

01-17-2005, 09:41 PM

i have to agree with teh above statement also

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 09:52 PM

I concur.

But in all likelihood, the top end players won't use additional safety equipment unless it can promote bounce.

Lohman446

01-17-2005, 09:56 PM

I concur.

But in all likelihood, the top end players won't use additional safety equipment unless it can promote bounce.

They will.. the bad news is we almost need a league to start fresh - to get out of paintball sponsors (which really can't be easily done, perhaps a new league/TV deal) and to offer a large enough prize package to draw competetive teams. Just make sure they have rules... this is how they are, you obey them to play.

Our current system- rule idea, ask the players, ask the players sponsors, who are also the league sponsors, make sure its ok.. make sure we enforice it this way is ok too... has some flaws in it

JKR

01-17-2005, 10:17 PM

Manike alludes to some upcoming safety items which makes me curious. I can tell you this, if regulations are passed forcing players to wear body armor, chin straps, and helmets to play paintball, you can count me out of the game for good. I'll wager that there will be many more that share my opinion. Nope, it will be only renegade or airsoft for me if that happens.

The responsibility rests with players and industry folk in this mess. The manufacturers wouldn't produce this stuff if there wasn't demand.

Hopperball will set us free! ;)

Tyger

01-17-2005, 10:26 PM

Are you serious? You live in a free country called America. And you are really asking this?

Do you want to limit people's freedoms and rights?

The right you have to swing your fists ends when you're about to hit my face.

And this has turned into "land of the lawsuit", like it or not EVERYONE is accountable for a stupid act. That includes the person who made the drink somoene else spilled into another person's lap. "Blanket lawsuits" are the norm.

If someone invents a paintball gadget that's manufactured and honed to be razor sharp on the edges, made specifically so you can bunker-slide and cut another player, would that be OK to put on my gun? I mean, it's a free country and it's my right to make my equipment any way I want. No, you wouldn't let me! That just makes sense! You wouldn't let me walk into a paintball field with equipment that's dangerous, would you?

As far as progression goes, whatever. If you want to push boundaries, then don't listen to me. I'm a nobody with a computer who has no game and no skills on the field. (or so I've been told.) And if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. And honestly I hope that I'm wrong. I don't want to see a 15 year old kid taken to a hospital after taking multiple hits to the head or kidneys, then deal with the fallout from angry mothers who take the fight to a senator or other politician. This is a case where I want to be wrong, I don't want to see paintball get screwed because of a moron allowed to use "dangerous equipment", which he screams is in his "rights" to own and use.

But this is different Tyger. In paintball, but emplacing a cap you are limiting people's edge over the competition. We aren't talking about necessary safety featuresd, we have that, and we can use that. We have masks, and BBDs, and neck protectors, and full head gaurds. That can and ought to be enforced. But emplacing a cap is just straight wrong.

Restrictor plate racing, good example of this. How about 250 cc motocross? They have an motor size cap, and yet SOMEONE wins those races with skill and talent. It's only "wrong" becasue nobody has done it for paintball, and the players are resistant to it. And the players are resistant to it because they've been told that more paint is good.

Look, do whatever the heck you want on a paintball field. Just don't be shocked when it bites you in the tail later down the road.

-Tyger
(Who still isn't in the mood for this)

Muzikman

01-17-2005, 10:28 PM

I have one question.... Why?

Why do you need a gun that can shoot 30bps?

This is something that no one has ever given me a good answer to. I get the feeling it's because you can. Since the beginning, paintball has tried to figure out ways to get more paint out of the barrel as fast as possible.

At this point the NXL's F/A rule makes the most sense. Do I think it's a good thing, no, it takes away from individual skill.

can'tthink of1

01-17-2005, 10:50 PM

People started using ramping chips and other illegal ways of attaining higher bps originally because there was that one guy on the other team who could shoot 19bps legitamately. Now, it has grown to everyone looking to be able to sling 20bps because if they don't they are at a disadvantage. Players don't worry about the safety of other players in a game, they just care about winning. The fact you just put 18balls into somebody in a second just because you had a lapse of though in the adrenalin filled game.

I think ramping/bouce/etc takes out what at one time was an edge that people had worked for to be able to attain high rates of fire w/o cheating. Its taking out a skill that made some players better than others, and its not their equipment that should be focused on, its the player himself that should be responsible for his bps.

I single shot can make someone tense up and do an "ouch" movement, not if 20 balls just hit him, what is that going to do to him physically? No one really knows, but whatever it is, its not good. There is a certian trust amoung players that the next guy when he shoots you out, won't lay 20 balls on you. Now aday's this trust is being broken when players cannot entirely control their marker. You are only in control when there is no ramping/bouncing/auto/etc. You are not adding that extra 6bps, the marker is, and you can't control that. You have to tone it down to where it isn't adding any bps and only then is there complete control. Without complete control, injuries will happen as a result, Not to say they won't anyways, there is just much more of a chance.

I believe company's do care, but its to what extent do they care is what bugs me. SP made it so even the average joe could pic up a nerve and shoot as fast as the hopper would feed. Now, is this caring about safety? Or just worry'in about getting that 12 year old, or whoever desires that speed w/o all the work that some people put in to be able to shoot fast on their own, and the ability to, rip the mask off someones face. I myself have had this happen, and have seen and heard of it happening to others. Its not that my mask wasn't tight or on right, it was fine, just 8 balls directly to my face left me staring at the grill(JT spectra). Needless to say, I got a new mask that I now felt safe in(profiler).

Also, tossing wiping into this whole mess, I know its cheating, but it puts the person who just saw his elim remain in the game cause the reg couldn't find anything, in a position where, he needs to start bonus-balling, and with how quick some people are with snap shooting, he needs to put as many balls on his opponent in the time he gets, to make sure he gets that elim. Thus when he see's that ramping chip, he'll think, "i'm gonna get that to make sure I get that assured elim" He may be able to shoot 17bps, but this chip ramps to 25, almost assuring him another ball to break on his opponent.

I really do think that tournament paintball is destroying itself from the inside. I mean, wiping has be increasing along with illegal markers. If you watched recent tourny coverage, no more do you see players making it to the 50, they make it to the 30 at the most. THen they excange fire for some time untill one team gets the advantage and assured win. Before this time, its just shooting, how much fun is that? WHere are the awazingly fast moves and such what drew me into paintball?

I personally worry about those kids that go shoot 400fps out in the woods, but then again not everyone knows the potential danger at such high fps. They aren't what people worry about the "sport" should be concered with. We need to be worried about what we play. THough, I inform every noob to my best extent to make sure he has a safe, and pleasurable time paintballing. But they shouldn't be the speedball going player's main concern.

ubooze

01-17-2005, 10:56 PM

JKR

01-17-2005, 10:57 PM

After posting, I thought about the prospects of body armor a little more. I feel certain that something like this will ultimately cause more safety problems than it solves. Undoubtedly, if full body armor is pitched to insurance companies as the savior of the sport, it will become a reality. Seems logical in their eyes as well as the industry pukes that are pitching it and have a vested interest.

OK, so now body armor becomes a reality. What happens at the recreational level? More players who don't have armor or don't want to sweat in the stuff start playing renegade. Before long, the industry pukes rationalize that the impact injury problem is solved and increased paintball weight or increased velocity would certainly add to the bottom line. After all, we are all just looking for a bit of and advantage over the other guy right? Nothing wrong with that, right? Do you see where I am heading here?

Trickle-down takes hold and Tommy newbie starts dishing it out to his buddies behind his house. Oh yeah, he also has the latest and greatest Uber-Max 2010 that shoots 6 gram 'balls at 350 fps. Cool!

Padding ourselves in "Red Man" suits is not the answer, folks. Most injuries now are caused by kids not properly outfitted and playing renegade. Continuing to offer 'guns that can seriously injure people and thinking that more safety gear that they won't buy will fix the problem is irresponsible behavior in my eyes. Even if my doom and gloom scenario of increased velocity and paintball weight is false, the current situation is a disaster waiting to happen.

CaliMagFan

01-17-2005, 11:03 PM

Tyger, was that a slight at the legal system? Or was that you endorsing the law suit process. Because if you're "up" on how it all works, you'd know that it's people like Manike that must make sure they are following a safe route in business or they will me subject to law suits. I hear a lot of bull about the US, and California being "law suit happy." Those people dont realize that the law suit is what the check and balance process is in the private/corporate sector.

So, we're faced with what I think is really THE QUESTION. "At what point do you pass up some of your individual freedoms, for the safety and order of the many?"

There is Freedom vs Equality

And there is Freedom vs Order

We're dealing with the latter in this thread. So, both of you, all of you must realize you're all arguing from the same point of view. It's the point of view of a paintballer. Now there are some people that say, "no, you can't tell me how to play my game, I demand my freedom." Then there are others (this is you tyger) that demand that people succumb to the will of the many or the will of order. What I would suggest is to not think that you're fighting one idea vs another, but think instead that you are trying to find the middle ground of a single ideology.

Let's figure this out, but let's be civil about it.

-kyro

ubooze

01-17-2005, 11:09 PM

Padding ourselves in "Red Man" suits is not the answer, folks. Most injuries now are caused by kids not properly outfitted and playing renegade. Continuing to offer 'guns that can seriously injure people and thinking that more safety gear that they won't buy will fix the problem is irresponsible behavior in my eyes. Even if my doom and gloom scenario of increased velocity and paintball weight is false, the current situation is a disaster waiting to happen.

Nice and dandy, my friend, but the fact that people are being harmed ont he tourney scene can be adressed. Hell, you don't need to wear full body armor, just a torso protector, a head gaurd of some sort (i am thinking hundredth monkey caps), and neck protector will cut it. And a cup is advisable. :p

That way you are really limiting the chances of injury in the tourney scene. I mean, you may think that stuff is uncomfortable, but so is a cheapy pack from walmart. Thats why Redz and NXe redisgned packs to be nicer, and the same would go for safety gear if the market was ordered to wear such gear.

You can't do anything about the woodsball kids. They are beyond the jurisdiction of the leagues and industry. They are in their own world. And besides, just cause they can't buy it doesn't mean they can't rent it. I know of several fields around here that are lax about board settings and don't have any caps.

I still think that FPS and proper gear that currently have is a safe solution. More likely or not the situations that players were knocked-out were hit with high FPS. SO instead of 300 go for the 280 FPS mark, and hold to it! And if you play, you should probably be smart enough to wear some sort of hat. Thats your mistake not to chose a more suitable piece of clothing.

If you make sure you have a high quality mask and wear it properly, and that other players and the field enforce the FPS limit, this oughten be a problem at ALL.

Tyger

01-17-2005, 11:11 PM

can'tthink of1

01-17-2005, 11:18 PM

I know you can limit them by bps, but what puts them all on the same playing ground is the fact their markers all fire as fast as they can legitamately fire, and fire ~300fps. I hate trying to compare paintball to other sports, cause although its using a precendent, paintball is in a league of its own. I think how they handle their maker involves how fast they can pull the trigger.

ubooze

01-17-2005, 11:24 PM

But by making all front players run the same speed, their ability to play tightly and snap shoot and what not are exposed, no?

I mean, I see where your coming from, but the matter of fact is that shooting fast is STILL a skill. One drivers ability to go through the gears at the right time and quickly enough gives him an edge and that skill.

One players ability to pull 20 BPS legally is and advanatge over the guy shooting 16 BPS towards him. I bet there are some teams that are stuck with using mech guns or somethng like that, what about them? It woudl only be fair to let them have some sort of reactive trigger to hit that 15 BPS cap.

I mean, no offense Tyger, your a great guy and all, but I think holding to that old standard of 13 BPS is a little outdated. I mean, no offense but you need to get along with the new standard.

As shooting 4 BPS with an autotrigger may have been a standard, then 13 BPS, and now the 18 and over. It still ALL depends ont he players ability to shoot that 18 BPS. You can make a unlimited limit of ROF< but some guy is still gunna need to wave those fingers while snapshooting, avoiding balls, and hiding behind a big balloon.

:cheers: to you Tyger, no hard feelings.

Tyger

01-17-2005, 11:24 PM

Tyger, was that a slight at the legal system? Or was that you endorsing the law suit process.
...
Now there are some people that say, "no, you can't tell me how to play my game, I demand my freedom." Then there are others (this is you tyger) that demand that people succumb to the will of the many or the will of order. What I would suggest is to not think that you're fighting one idea vs another, but think instead that you are trying to find the middle ground of a single ideology.

#1 ) I'm just stating the way lawsuits work. If I'm at, say, a county fair and some employee throws a sizzling hot steak at my face and scalds me. The lawsuit would include the employee, the employer, the chain that makes the steaks, the fairgrounds, the people who ran the event and so on. It's not whatI agree with, but the concept is that you blanket sue everyone, and see what sticks. And a good lawyer can make a LOT stick.

#2 ) Look, I'm talking about a workable solution. It's worked in dozens of other technology based sports, it doesn't work in paintball because the players also run the industry who run the tournaments stand to lose financially if there's caps and limitations on the technology. It's a solution that, if implemented, WILL work. You go over the limit, you're out. As has been said before, NASCAR vehicles are inspected to an inch of their sheetmetal to make sure they're in the paramaters of what's allowed. I fail to see a difference between doing that and restricting technology in paintball.

-Tyger

can'tthink of1

01-17-2005, 11:28 PM

You can restrict the technology sure, but how fast a player can legitamately shoot is his own doing cause 99% of high end electro's can shoot faster than anyone can pull w/o ramp/bounce/etc.

PBX Ronin 23

01-17-2005, 11:31 PM

If you standardise the equipment, then the talent will show. Right now everyone tries to "even the play field" by raising the BPS they can shoot. Go the other route. If everyone has the same "base" limit of 11-15 BPS, then you can work within that. EVERYONE start at teh same speed, now it's what you do with it.
-Tyger
Agreed.

Tyger

01-17-2005, 11:34 PM

One players ability to pull 20 BPS legally is and advanatge over the guy shooting 16 BPS towards him. I bet there are some teams that are stuck with using mech guns or somethng like that, what about them? It woudl only be fair to let them have some sort of reactive trigger to hit that 15 BPS cap.

I mean, no offense Tyger, your a great guy and all, but I think holding to that old standard of 13 BPS is a little outdated. I mean, no offense but you need to get along with the new standard.

It's not the natural ability. It's the cheaterboards that let people like me shoot 25 BPS. But to stop cheaterboards, you need to remove the incentive to use them. Therefore, restrict the top end to a sane level and it removes the desire for cheaterboards.

Besides, even if the goggles can take higher, the ASTM standard that I'm aware of says goggles can only withstand 13 or so BPS, so by shooting higher ROF paintguns you're going against the ASTM standard. In a court of law, that's golden. That's like INVITING a lawsuit by advertizing that your product is beying the limitations of the ASTM guidelines for the safety gear. It's like putting a seatbelt rated for 30 MPH crashes into a dragster.

-Tyger

can'tthink of1

01-17-2005, 11:37 PM

Agreed.

Yeah, I agree, but I think that the talent of being able to shoot fast on your own shouldn't be restricted, I mean, i can't even shoot that fast, but I don't care, there are ppl out there that can, and its their personal talent. Its one of those things that pushes you to improve on something. Sadly people would rather pay the 150 for a ramping chip than put in the work to improve.

Jackel411

01-17-2005, 11:42 PM

If this topic was already touched upon feel free to rant at me..

300 FPS may seem exsive at 22 bps... but now... any one that has played knows a bounce hurts more and leaves more of a bruise than a break.. why you may ask?

When the ball hits you and breaks it absorbs some of its impact by breaking , when it bounces YOU absorb its impact energy.

I much rather take a bunch of breaks to the ( insert body part here ) than a bunch of bounces.

Yeah its a bad thing that any kid can go and get a machine gun of a marker for very little money but. Just remember.. this industry makes most of its money on paint , so so long as you are buying more paint the people are happy and at 22 bps you can blow through a case of 2000 quite fast :)

And think about this.. Reloader B made by NPS , NPS also makes very fast timmys , and also owns Diablo hmmmm.. Evolution w/ Z board made by K2 , K2 also makes the Karnivor , K2 also owns Jt that makes high end paint hmmmmm....

RetroEclipseMan

01-18-2005, 06:17 AM

Tyger, a bike with a bigger engine and a car with a faster top speed are not representiive of the driver or rider's skill and ability. Thats just an achievement of the pitcrew and engineers.

Why not add ten pound weights to the lighter guys in horse racing or to the arms of the driver who has faster reactions? That'll even ought the field more. Make the guy who has better vision wear a foggy lense. Its his ability that seperates him freom the rest, as does the paintballer

Hell, that team's front man is faster, add 20 pound weights to his pack!!!! That is what capping is in a more obvious way. Your taking their advantage away.

An Muzik, why not? Its all about shooting a lot of paint to be competitive.

"Well, all it takes is one hit to take a player out" some may say.

Well, for me to get that ONE good ball that fits my barrel perfectly and has a great flight, I need to shoot 5. And then, who knows if it won't bounce? And isn't it harder to run through a stream of paint that was sent at 20 or so BPS then it is 3?

Its all about being faster and smaller and lighter and tighter. By shooting more and faster, you are raising the chances that you hit someone. I mean, for JUST 1/13th of a second an elbow or shoe appears, you have several tightly foloowing balls that could hit that elbow. Try doing that when you shoot 13 BPS.

I mean, its the EXACT same thing in fencing. Being able to swing that blade around fast enough, bending it far enough, lunging far enough ALL make the difference. You must take advantage of a chance should it arise, and these skills facilitate this. The same goes for being able to shoot the speed that you can pull, be it 10- or 20+.

Yeah, being able to shoot fast "USED" to be an advantage, with leagues allowing ramping modes I don't see it as an advantage anymore. I know that I can't pull a consistant 15bps but why does that matter if I can just go out and spend $80 on a board that will basically pull over 20 for me. I think what Tyger is trying to say is that if there's a cap in place (which I really hope the PSP goes through with) then it's no longer about having a faster gun but how you use that gun, it will be more up to the player to develop better gun skills, becoming faster and better at tucking than just sitting back and dumping paint.

Look at the NFL and how they no longer allow kickers to "prep" the balls that are used during the game. This wasn't to limit the spectacularly long kicks that ou see, it was to insure that what you see was because of the effort the kicker put into becoming a good kicker, not how well he could doctor a ball to make it easier to kick. Which is the same with players using cheater boards to "level the playing field" Why not just put a cap at 16bps and be done with it.

MindJob

01-18-2005, 08:23 AM

I think alot of people are thinking a little bit too far ahead.

The first thing that MUST happen, is for the industry to establish sane guidlines. With that being said, if the industry is not capable, then SOMEONE must.

Secondly, these guidlines must be ENFORCED. This is almost as big of an issue as actually setting the guidelines in the first place.

From listening to most of the players I come across, I think most are anxious to get this rof issue under control, and I aslo think that a set of reasonably sane rules would be welcomed.

The woodsballers and outlaw players for the most part will follow suit. I play lots of outlaw ball, and we do a pretty good job of policing ourselves.

But like said previously, who the heck is going to establish them?

LudavicoSoldier

01-18-2005, 08:38 AM

I really hate the mentality that you HAVE to shoot fast to be competitive. Dumping 2 cases a day (or more) is not financially feasable for most players. Heck, not all tournament players can afford the lastest cheater electro. I would say that tourny PB is coming down to the haves and the have nots, and I'm not talking about skill.

manike

01-18-2005, 09:43 AM

Besides, even if the goggles can take higher, the ASTM standard that I'm aware of says goggles can only withstand 13 or so BPS, so by shooting higher ROF paintguns you're going against the ASTM standard. In a court of law, that's golden. That's like INVITING a lawsuit by advertizing that your product is beying the limitations of the ASTM guidelines for the safety gear. It's like putting a seatbelt rated for 30 MPH crashes into a dragster.

Where do you get this from? It's JUST FLAT OUT WRONG.

I have the ASTM goggle standard in front of me right now and NOWHERE does it say anything about withstanding 13bps.

Please, PLEASE, try to get your facts right when talking about safety and standards, or DON'T say anything about them at all.

RRfireblade

01-18-2005, 10:26 AM

Where do you get this from? It's JUST FLAT OUT WRONG.

I have the ASTM goggle standard in front of me right now and NOWHERE does it say anything about withstanding 13bps.

Please, PLEASE, try to get your facts right when talking about safety and standards, or DON'T say anything about them at all.

Just to add to that...

Of the goggle manufactureres I sell and distribute all but one of them specify the lens to be replaced after 1 direct shot to the lens at or closer than 10'. That's correct...ONE single shot.

The only one that doesn't is a specific model I distribute for tactical training. 'Course that one will take a direct hit from .22 short bullet. ;)

SlartyBartFast

01-18-2005, 11:44 AM

While the "industry" has its role to play and shares the blame for some of the current state of paintball, ultimately it's the player in each tournament series that determine the way the series is played.

Until the hormone addled masses turn their focus from how much loot and shiny new things they get for winning a tournament to being genuinely interested in a title for the tiles sake. Little will change.

For the same entry fee, bags of shiny crap get more players to a tournament than a past history of good refereeing and good organisation.

Next time you're at a local tournament, look at the value of the prize package (cash and wholesale price of merchandise). Divide the total by the number of participants. If you don't win YOU are subsidising and encouraging the top teams to play the way they do.

But, every noob interested in tournaments first asks "How do I get sponsored?" and not "How do I improve my game?". If local tournament teams asked themselves the second question, they'd be promoting local area competitions that put the emphasis on skill not on the bounty.

White_Noise

01-18-2005, 12:54 PM

Just to add to that...

Of the goggle manufactureres I sell and distribute all but one of them specify the lens to be replaced after 1 direct shot to the lens at or closer than 10'. That's correct...ONE single shot.

The only one that doesn't is a specific model I distribute for tactical training. 'Course that one will take a direct hit from .22 short bullet. ;)

playing in a tourney with an almost brand new lense in my invision, i was shot from about 5 feet away, 3 shots hit my lens from a ramping marker, as well as abour 4 more to the rest of the mask. i come off the field and there is a perfect crack straight through my lense. one more shot would have broken the thermal second lense. i was lucky.

ive had to replace lenses because of being too close and taking a hit directly to the mask with no visible damage. i played with a new lense against some guys with ramping guns and it was about the 3rd time i had played with it. it now has spider cracks from when it got shot numerous times and i have to replace the lense.

im all for the limiting of BPS, as well as modes of fire. i hate ramping, nxl boards, etc. there is no skill in it. i think the ASTM needs to do some tests of paintball equipment and find out exactly what they can handle. my idea would be to limit all paintball markers on any field in any event to a 15bps semiauto only at 300fps or lower. will this every happen? highly doubtful, the company's that control events and tournaments wont allow it cause they wont make as much money from it.

thats my $.02 not that it matters because the majority of the industry doenst care about safety, only $$$.

/endrant

nerobro

01-18-2005, 12:55 PM

Yes, a stock gun would make the world much simpler for paintball.

Think about the ease for the player. Every time they went to the field, they would know they could just grab any gun, and play the same as they always have. Versus getting to complain, moan, and otherwise whine about the gun being to blame.

But there is a problem with this. "I" want a gun better than the next guy. And he wants one better than mine. At this point everyone seems to have realized that every gun is about as accurate as the next gun. Just about every gun on the market is acceptabably velocity consistant. And the only "real" difference between each gun is trigger setup, and the rof you can achieve with it. (either through mechanical or software limitations)

I would be a supporter of a 14bps, sealed electronics rule for paintball in general. The game is loosing it's magic due to ropes of paint you can't reasonably run through.

FPS is already an equalizer. There's no reason to change that. And the 300fps rule isn't about goggles. it's about breaking bones.

And goggles are designed to take ONE HIT. But standard practice is to use them till they crack or are a year old.

Another note... ROF used to be a skill. "I" used to be devilishly fast. But with the advent of microswitch triggers, and then software that effectively cheats.... my 13+ bps was no longer extrodinary. Calling ROF a skill nowdays is a lie. I can reach mid twentys with a hot software setup. And I KNOW I can't pull that fast. :-)

RRfireblade

01-18-2005, 01:16 PM

Well....

I've been saying this a along time and I'm going to say it again:

5 LB minimum trigger pull weight

And/Or single trigger only electros.

Fixed.....your welcome. :D

hitech

01-18-2005, 01:19 PM

Well....

I've been saying this a along time and I'm going to say it again:

5 LB minimum trigger pull weight

I think one or two pounds is enough. And I agree that it is probably the best start.

:cheers:

01-18-2005, 01:34 PM

The rate of paintball related injuries outside of the regulated field environment has seen a steady increase. At some point in time, these increases will lead to the insurance companies lobbying not just for restrictive legislation but rather prohibitive ones. These insurance companies have the ability to shut down paintball as a sport and as an industry.

I’m sorry but you are going to have to lie out in spades, i.e. show statistical significance that this is the case. Let’s look at other cases where insurance carriers cracked down on certain types of claims. For example in Texas there are special provisions for Flood and Mold insurance because carriers were getting seriously hosed. Paintball is not anywhere near that point.

I don’t think there is as large a problem simply because the events that do occur are more televised.

gt

PissedGodzilla

01-18-2005, 01:44 PM

There is no way that electros will disapear or be banned. The cat is out of the bag and it isnt going back in.

Technology is causing the sport problems....
but
technology may very well be the answer to some of them

Cheater boards can be too easily hidden.

Maybe what is needed, is a board that can be flashed with legal software, right at the feild. This way, no one can smuggle in illegal software.

This way, everyone is on equal ground.

OF course this is by no means fool-proof, but I think that is would make it extremely difficult to get around the ROF rules.

I'm sorry that I did not get a chance to post earlier in this discussion, but here is a very intersting suggestion. Using a regulation board will not only make production easier (and possibly cheaper for the consumer) it will show a penchant for as much safety as possible.

Here's my thing: How can we, as a sport, be responsible for those that use the equipment INCORRECTLY as stated? If I was playing golf, and hit someone in the face from 15 yards away, the guy might die. In fact, I am willing to bet there have been deaths from golf (just using golf as an example, btw) in this manner. What we really need to see if where our injuries as a total stack up to other sports where projectiles or similar injures can occur. Would anone know where to find that information?

Chronobreak

01-18-2005, 02:26 PM

ahh nice to see nero get out of his wheelchair and post :p j/j

btw u can remove the pbn mod thing ;) i took ur spot :ninja:

with that having been said i compeltely agreee.

although the mask could probly be a bit stronger they are fine. although the lens isnt my main concern its mask that are detachable right udner the bottom of the lens where it coyuld come detatched and send a ball going uncomfortably close to the eye.

and after reffing for eyars ive seen hits to epopel wearing full facemask that stil got paint in their eyes whether it was from the top air holes or the bottom or EVEN the back side :nono:

freak accidents and occurances but one kid was in teh hospital for it.

most respectable fields dont allow full-auto unles they are really paint greedy in that case i mgith suggest playing somewhere else or sharing with the owner how u feel.

an indrutsy cap around 13-15 would be a GREAT START as well as maybe some trigger regulations like not below 250 grams or soemthing...

but the problem is who wil enforce it. like its been said with all the diff interest in the community most ifnot all companies wouldnt want to except the extra charge.

i really thin the tourney scene needs to set some strict guidlines that trickle down to the rest of us.

as well as renegae ballers...if they dotn want to follow the rules they wont. theyl shoot hot until somone gets seriosuly pelted from like 50 feet away. or clsoer :eek:

one kid even insisted playing without goggles...WITHOUT GOGLES..i mean come on...even swim goggles or shop goggles wouldve been better than NOTHING...its all about common sence people.

it would be commone sence to not shoot over 15~ but players dont care if THEY CAN or can get away with it. and the paint companies are making the paint $ and the uber fast cheater guns :coughnerve are making their $.

--also wanted to add ive seen poeple use the ame lens for 4+years..me being one of them :ninja: i thought the whole new mask every eyar thing was a ploy for me to spend more $.... when my lens got a SMALL crack i immediately replaced it though.

Lurker27

01-18-2005, 02:46 PM

Disjointed post follows. Warning. :ninja:

First off, I'd like to say that analogies to other sports fail almost universally.

Limiting FPS accomplishes what? It limits range (effective range especially) significantly, because of the impact energy. Shooting at 220 is, realistically, a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage. You'd have to rework the shells of balls to break more easily, so now you have to have softer bolt systems (oh no, I have the mag guys salivating).

The best suggestion anyone can really make is the overall limiting of how much paint can be carried. Basically, this hamstrings the industry's ability to sell paint. However, it is everything that enforcing cheater boards isn't: easy to do. A cursory check will tell almost exactly how much paint a player is carrying, and in turn subjects the players to laws of economics, themselves.

Concern about major trauma from impacts is just sophistry. The protectice equipment is more than up to the task at hand. Injuries occur almost exclusively through player stupidity.

It IS almost impossible to stop electronics trickery. But I think almost all of us can tell when people are ROF cheating. What would get rid of the problem would be a "probable cause" policy. You maxed a reloaderB for 3 seconds consecutively? Impossible. Get out. I'm sure that certain people (I have a friend who I goldwaved at a legitimate 20bps over a half second period, no bounce) will be hurt unintentionally, but mostly you can tell who can rip, and whose gun is ripping for them. Watch a game from the sidelines, and you'll see what I mean. The nice thing about this system is that the only way around it is to stop cheating, or bring your cheating back to a marginal level (30% ramping might get through, for instance). In addition, its a harsh system that doesn't require a standardization which the industry would NEVER go for, because of the money. the vast majority of cheats, such as the 187 mod (clever way of essentialy breaking in a switch...grab a '99 angel that's been used heavily and take out the switch and you'll see what I mean...remove the ceramic cap and throw it on a timmy, db1) and other idiotic team number mods, are switches creating an autoresponse switch...completely outside programming.

Honestly, we CAN TELL, from the sidelines, if a guy is ROF cheating...I know bimills has told his story about people clearly shooting autoresponse and not getting pulled, but 2 things about that anecdote strike me...First, it was clear...and second, that was almost certainly in an age where ROF cheating was more rare.

In an age where manufacturers are putting blantant cheater modes (WDP, BL, TAG) and every "good" board can be set up to cheat (Mbounce is a joke) I think it may be the only real way.

xXHavokXx

01-18-2005, 02:48 PM

The velocity 300fps is basically only used in tourney's most fields ive been to limit down to 285fps. That seems to be a satisfactory level. I've felt someones barrel on my chin when they shot me in the throat and I did not die, or have any lasting effects, been shot in the nuts, fingers, chin, arms, legs, torso, head and still have yet to be injured. My lenses have sustatined mulitple shots(upwards of 10 from a bouncing timmy doing at least 16bps) at 300fps and still protected me. Speed isnt the problem, bps isn't the problem. Safety standards are.

As the industry evolves, our equipment needs to as well. I believe our masks may need more than just hard rubber nubs slippng into softer rubber holes to keep them together, and yes they may need to extend to cover more of our heads, neck guards may be needed. The torso and legs are fine a majority of people shot by handguns survive and bullets impart way more energy and have penetrative quality than a gellatin ball travelling at 300fps. Arms are usually covered so aside from skin damage youre very safe.

What if someone was subjected to 30 shots within the same square inch of skin withing one second?....Who knows it is very unlikey to happen. Nerve damage? Possible but why would it happen except if someone had malicious intent, then it is no longer the gear's fault but the persons.

As for the ref who was knocked out: I've heard of one ref being knocked out out of the 50000 possible refs there are (figure made up as i have no possible idea of how many refs there have ever been in all time of paintball, this number seems reasonable small). 1 in 50000 is incredibly small, infact.....An insignifigant figure by most standards. Plus, how do we know it was the gear's fault? What if he was born with a thin skull ? What if his mask wasn't on properly? What if at that exact moment a meteor fell from the sky and only burned up enough to leave a microfragment that hit him at just the right condition and incidentaly the same time as that paintball to knock him out.

As for "skill": I always hear people *****ing about how ROF gets rid of skill....Bull. It creates new skills, this weekend we played against a team of kids, you'd be amazed but these kids were somehow surviving out 16+ bps streams and ropes of paint. How did they do it? Was it force fields? Are they ghosts? Or have they adapted to the situation and developed new skills in order to play? Naw, couldn't be, they had to have been cheating or wearing Dye gear. The skills necisary to play paintball have changed in the mainstream, no longer are we running around in camos pretending to be snipers or SEALS killing others, we are playing a sport, a game in which the goal is to score points and win.

I was talking to someone about this the other day, he said it takes no skill to play paintball any more. Just mash on a trigger and you win. My response was, while you mash on your trigger I'm going to mash back, one of us will get out first, the guy who adapts and learns how to move, shoot and be aware will win. The new game isnt about sneaking around like a ninja, its about being continuosly aware of everything. You have to learn when to move to avoid streams, you have to know how to move through ropes of paint, you have to change your plans and communicate BETTER than before, your buddy could keep a rope of paint of you with his own. Watch kids play with high end guns, you dont see the two biggest kids railing on their guns static anymore, they are dynamic, they are rolling their triggers while moving. The back player has to adapt moreso than the rest.

Why do we need 30 bps? Why was the machine gun invented? A rope of paint does more are aganst 3 players than a well aimed shot. 3 well aimed shots might take too long.

Evolution has brought the game new advances like HPa systems, electro guns, the HALO (my fav), better masks, Air bunkers, hellfire paint, and has brought the sport a lot of new people try out and play and decrease the cost to play for the rest of us, and pay my bills!

I think Manike is right ( not just because he drives a Corvette, which does give him points) lets work on improving out ASTM standards and make stuff more appropriate to current conditions.

manike

01-18-2005, 02:54 PM

playing in a tourney with an almost brand new lense in my invision, i was shot from about 5 feet away, 3 shots hit my lens from a ramping marker, as well as abour 4 more to the rest of the mask. i come off the field and there is a perfect crack straight through my lense. one more shot would have broken the thermal second lense. i was lucky.

ive had to replace lenses because of being too close and taking a hit directly to the mask with no visible damage. i played with a new lense against some guys with ramping guns and it was about the 3rd time i had played with it. it now has spider cracks from when it got shot numerous times and i have to replace the lense.

Do you still use that same goggle/lens system?

If yes then, Why?

Chronobreak

01-18-2005, 02:57 PM

i remember my first tournaments playing "HOPPERBALL" omg! NOW thats a rush playing a 3-man with 200 or less rounds depending on your loader...trust me you dont waste paint ;) then again i wa slike 15 at that time..things are diff now but im not sure of its just that ot the sport has evoleved to this what i like to call a "mess"

there should be a paint on field limit(within reason .)
let bps be w/e if they use theyr alloted paint they use theyr paint...
that scenario would stil ahve certain bps limits within reason..no full auto crap etc

otherwise bps is capd at 15~ no bounce,ramp etc. allow w/e paint...but theoreticly i gues u could onyl shoot sooo much... :cool:

i would like to seee one of these things happen

Lohman446

01-18-2005, 03:33 PM

Tyger

01-18-2005, 04:28 PM

can'tthink of1

01-18-2005, 04:44 PM

Havoc, I agree with you that this is no longer running around out in the woods, but its been like this for awhile now. I have watched people and numerous vids I downloaded, and well, no longer do you see any movement, I feel, that as the bps has been increasing, people are no longer hitting the 40 even. People will run 10 ft to their bunker and just shoot, and continue shooting till their team has the upper side and then they finally start to bump up some. However, the majority of the time they were still just shooting at eachother, and no real movement has occured. They seem to be letting their bps do the work, and soon as the win is basically assured the bumping up and bunkering happens, all in a relatively short time compared to the time they spend shooting. THis may sound fun to you, but when no one is moving much, and they are just shooting, the game gets a little boreing. Movement has become serverly restricted by bps, and I know we can adapt, but still, its gotten to a point where us mear human's can't comprehend that amound of paint.

Also, while I feel googles are adequate, there are still issues with them taking too many hits. If you look out, and take 10 hits from 8ft away, I think your lense just may crack, and a paintball may potentially blind you. This hasn't been an issue really, since most people can control their bps, but with adrenalin running, and a fast ramping marker, who's to say it won't happen?

I also, its not one specific person or thing's responsibility, its everyone's, the refs, feilds, companyies, and down to the players. To get paintball back to where bps didn't control if you won/loss, everyone is going to have to make an honest effort.

White_Noise

01-18-2005, 04:57 PM

Do you still use that same goggle/lens system?

If yes then, Why?

yes i do still use the same system.

1. comfort, havent found another mask that fits me as good
2. ive seen other systems fail as well
3. thermal lense, profilers dont have them, and ive fogged them up before.

thats why i still use the same system. had it not been for ramping run away markers, i wouldnt have had the problems with them cracking.

01-18-2005, 05:02 PM

it doesn't work in paintball because the players also run the industry who run the tournaments stand to lose financially if there's caps and limitations on the technology.

Nice!

Please, PLEASE, try to get your facts right when talking about safety and standards, or DON'T say anything about them at all.

Manike,
Forgive me as I maynot have this correct, but arnt there provisions in the ASTM standard for paintball guns and their trigger pull weight? The set of standards I read said something like 2-3lbs, can't remeber.

Does ANSI have any standards yet?

manike

01-18-2005, 05:51 PM

thats why i still use the same system. had it not been for ramping run away markers, i wouldnt have had the problems with them cracking.

Three shots?

I would have a major concern with any lense that was at risk from 3 shots, and wouldn't have it anywhere near my eyes. I'd take less comfort and protect my vision better. Failure after 3 shots would not pass the ASTM standard.

If you test the profiler antifog V's thermal lenses I'd be suprised if you found the thermals to fog less.

manike

01-18-2005, 05:53 PM

but arnt there provisions in the ASTM standard for paintball guns and their trigger pull weight? The set of standards I read said something like 2-3lbs, can't remeber.

Not sure what you read but it's not the ASTM standards.

There is no ASTM standard on trigger pull to activate the gun.

THERE IS a standard on minimum force to overcome the safety on the gun (mechanical trigger lock outs).

JRingold

01-18-2005, 10:28 PM

Ban electros! Best thing that can be done for the game.

But then you would have to ban the response style triggers and valves too, because you can cheat using those on a mech as well.

The solution that I see as the most likely is that Legislation will make it illegal to use any paintball marker outside of a designated legiimate playing field AND that it will set a limitation on the rate of fire as people whom are not familiar with the sport will assume that anything over a very low number (like three) balls per second is fully automatic. Tell me, how many legislators do you know that play paintball? I don't know of any...

Here's another solution... Let's all go back to pumps and stock class!!! Woo Hoo!!!

CaliMagFan

01-19-2005, 02:08 AM

I'm seeing, and kinda taking part in some Tyger lashing, but let's work on this point that he is championing. Let's take another sport that relies completely on the use of an "advanced" piece of technology (moreso than running shoes or a ball) for its well being. A great example is motorcycle racing. Tyger makes an excellent point that 250cc 4 strokes dont race against 500 2 strokes, and there is a reason for that. The field starts as LEVEL and the skill and many times luck of a rider divides them from the rest of the pack.

It's hard, if not impractical to limit the specs that industry people set on their markers and so forth, but it is easy to enforce what is allowed in a tourney to some extent. So now we have an omni-leveling force of every marker just getting faster, and that speed levels the playing field for the most part... But what Tyger and some others are saying is that the speed brings up safety issues that are not yet addressed... We are, as much as you dont wanna hear it, wearing the same masks and shirts and pants that we were in 1996 when markers weren't really even near the 10bps mark, and tournament PB was still somewhat in the woods.

So it's not just an issue of safety, cause you cant control the speed or the "legality" of the speed of one's marker in this age of cheater boards and people like hitech that brag about being able to cheat; to say it bluntly. It's more an issue of a leveling of the field... so we at least know:
1) to what extent we need to make ourselves safe
2) when we compete, what we're competing against
3) and in the same vein as 2, when we compete what we can use to compete.

So, as I said before, cheaters boards are going to happen, so might I now make a suggestion that draws on the gallery for its sum of ideas.

-- Don't put a Number of balls limit on tournaments, cause people will shoot just as fast, they'll just play more wrecklessly.
--Single finger trigger.
-- full auto, 15bps
--the trigger must be at least 1lb. 2 is better, but with just 1 finger, it's still weighty by todays standards..
--Also, people have mentioned classes... we have stock and pump classes... why not >10bps class, and >18bps class....
-- ALL electro classes would of course be full auto so that you wouldnt have to rely on judges discorvering the right bps rates to trigger players' ramping ships and such...and people couldnt use debounce and rebound or ramping boards caus they are driven by semi-auto switvh imputs and a 1 to 2 lb trigger isnt gunna move fast enough with 1 finger.

also, if judges are reffing at a 15bps tourney, they're gunna know what that sounds like... so if some1 sounds like they're shooting a little too fast (some kinda turbo boards or something).. pull them and test it... and all the ref has to do it pull the trigger for 2 or 3 seconds..

thats my imput here for teh day....

-kyro

manike

01-19-2005, 09:59 AM

We are, as much as you dont wanna hear it, wearing the same masks and shirts and pants that we were in 1996

No we aren't. Unless we are choosing too. :rolleyes:

Masks, lenses, pants, and jerseys have all moved forwards, some more than others. And other protective gear has become available.

xXHavokXx

01-19-2005, 10:11 AM

Jeffy-CanCon

01-19-2005, 02:48 PM

yes i do still use the same system.

1. comfort, havent found another mask that fits me as good
2. ive seen other systems fail as well
3. thermal lense, profilers dont have them, and ive fogged them up before.

thats why i still use the same system. had it not been for ramping run away markers, i wouldnt have had the problems with them cracking.

White_Noise, what mask system are you using?

SlartyBartFast

01-19-2005, 05:35 PM

Why was the other thread opened by manike deleted? :confused:

Manike? Was it you or the Mods?

nerobro

01-19-2005, 05:37 PM

Ok to continue the motorccle analogy the 500cc dont race the 250ccs. So do they tell the 500cc bikers they cant use their 500cc bikes and take away 250cc of their engines to make it fair for people who want there to be 250cc races and dont want to bump up?

No, but to make the arguemnt work properly. You can't run 1300cc engines in motogp. But you can run a 500cc 2 stroke or a 1000cc 4 stroke. They don't take 300cc's from you. You just aren't allowed to play.

If you choose to play, you need to play by the rules. You wanna race? you race by our rules. If you have some bike(gun) that doesn't fit in our rules, you leave.

The NPPL used to do that. While the rest of the world had CA tanks, you had to run 12gm's. Same for pump versus semi.

Anywhere bur paintball, it's a fact of life. Play by our rules, or don't play.

In fact, That's one of the problems with paintball. Players are defining the rules. Not a governing body. While unpopular, top fuel is now running 90% nitromethane. Instead of the 100% they used to run. Or, we could talk F1, where they used to be electronic wonders (think full auto with target acquisition), but have now given up on that and are back to bascily unaided drivers (think mechanical guns, or first generation angels)

CaliMagFan

01-19-2005, 05:53 PM

Manike: Let's just do a little digging to see what gear was being used circa 1996... fair enough??

http://www.paintmagazine.com/wpaint4/masters.shtml
-That page is one of a couple dozen of sub articles from PB events around the globe. Now, if you please, you can go to the linking page and view the various other pages like the one aforelinked. To make that easier, here is the URL:
http://www.paintmagazine.com/articles/Paintball_Tournaments/

Ok, so that is an indicator, at least to me, what equipment has been used since 1996 (so far as masks and "clothing" goes). Now, granted they're not wearing Dye C5 gear, or JT 04 Tourney pants, but I hope that you can agree that the level of protection given in what they wear is comparable to what we use today. The main thing I notice is that most of the players are geared in JT spectra masks, and a few do have the "cut versions" of the spectra that did not have the ear pieces or the full chin guard. From JT spectra (which along with the flex-7 are still very widely used) to a mask like the Profiler- which might be the most "armored" of the modern masks, I see about a 30%, at most, increase in face/neck coverage. Now take that 30% and stack it against the max bps then and now... For the sake of argument, I'm going to say that the max bps then was 10. Now, I think thats a bit high, cause that is hard to sustain when on a mech anything, but given the existence of early electros, I'll give you 10bps. Bring that in the light of the ~20 bps of todays markers, and you have a rough 100% increase in "firepower", but: A) no change in mask mandate since the lower half being made a rule circa 1996. And B) the coverage increase in the "cutting edge" mask increase of only 30%.

And if you would, please notice that most of the players (only excluding a few in the later dated pages ~1998+) are using mechanical only markers. You see many Mags and many cockers. I did see a shoebox shocker with PF and what I think was an early angel.

Ok, so now let's just back 2 more years from '96 and look at a page from 1994.
http://www.mnpig.com/minnesota/paintball/museum/1994_1.htm

What we see here is a group guys wearing what looks to be early forms of the JT spectra and Xfire or something of an approximate protection area. And what markers were they using? PGPs ?? Pray hard and sling about 5bps from those for a grand total of 11 balls!! I think you can see where this is going.

You strike as someone that knows the ins of their part of the industry. And yes, I'm sure that you take my best interests at heart when you mill the sharp edges off my 25+bps marker. I'm actually more worried about being shot with 5 balls in the side of the mask and having it dislodged from my head.

Very right about what you said here "...And other protective gear has become available."
That is very true. I'm looking into a set of elbow/forearm guards right now. Those items do nothing for the "important" part of the body, the face. I'm not trying to kid about that either... Which would you rather, 30 balls to the arm/chest, or 1 to the eye. I'll take the body any day... I only have two eyes, and bruises heal faster than obliterated eyeballs.

I can show you many markers that are "100% better" (that's a big quote-mark on that one too... but i think that you get what I'm saying. Let's hope that you have pushed your industry too 100% more in the last 9 years) than those used in 1996. I challenge you to show me a mask that is "100% better" than those of 1996 (and prove it to some extent, please.)
I'm gunna go for the old legal "Red Herring" on you too by saying that the JT mask with the full face and head guard is an example of the right step ahead, but doesn't count here, as it's not mandated to be used at fields that allow the use of the 100% better guns.
----------------------
xXHavokXx:

I'm kinda confused about what you just said. I was discussing the need for "classes" of tournament as well as rec-field paintball play. I said nothing about taking away "500cc bikes" so that the "250 guys" can have everyone play at their level... I was speaking with respect to the fact that if I'm on the start line with a 250cc bike under me, I want to know that there are no riders that are on 500cc bikes.

So, that's my response to what I gather you are saying with this:
"Ok to continue the motorccle analogy the 500cc dont race the 250ccs. So do they tell the 500cc bikers they cant use their 500cc bikes and take away 250cc of their engines to make it fair for people who want there to be 250cc races and dont want to bump up?"

Now, if I interpreted that wrong, do let me know. But I think that you just missed the point, and might not know about the overall system of "clases" in some sports is all about.

manike

01-19-2005, 06:10 PM

Manike: Let's just do a little digging to see what gear was being used circa 1996... fair enough??

You are correct in that the equipment looks similar, and is similar to what is available today.

Since then JT have changed how they make their lenses. They used to be cut from a piece of curved material which was shaped by heat, now they are injected. This makes a difference in strenght and weak spots. But visualy they are very similar.

Many new goggles come with chin straps.

Other companies lenses which were not available then, are now, and are, in my opinion, superior. Vforces lenses are in some cases nearly 4mm thick! (compared to 2mm from some of the old JT ones).

There is protective gear now available, that wasn't then. You can use it. You don't have to use the old safety gear from 1996. It's hard to see what the tournament players are wearing under the similar jerseys and pants, but most are wearing slider shorts and pads that were not available back then, or are significantly better now.

Back then we allowed less face protection. Now we do not and we enforce it rigourously at the top end. It could be said that Bob Long lost the World Cup because he wore a modified mask and got a 5 minute major penalty. In 1996, you were only required to wear goggles. People played without anything protecting their ears and mouths. Now that isn't allowed.

Jerseys can now come with padding in them to protect your elbows.

Pants now come with padding in the knee and groin areas.

A lot of the stuff looks very similar but it has been improved subtly. In my opinion it IS better.

Again, as we have discussed and I don't want to get into it here, it's up the players if they choose to buy new gear that is more protective or play the old way. As long as they are protecting their eyes and ears with regulation goggles. I don't think it matters what shirt or pants they choose to play in.

RAM3139

01-20-2005, 04:07 PM

In my opinion, before anything else, there needs to be an agency/organization as seperate from the profit making side of the industry as possible. They need to research and update all the information on what are the legitimate safety concerns of the sport today. For example, exactly when a mask lense needs to be replaced (adter 1 close shot, after 1 year, after visible signs of wear etc..), or whether repeated (15+ bps) impacts from a paintball can cause damage, and if not, is there a limit where it can. While the individual efforts of companies to improve safety eqiupment is commendable and very important (thanks Manike), there needs to be an outside body setting intelligent, uniform guidlines as a whole.
Second, the thought of reducing velocity, and as a result, limiting the game, seems a little absurd to me. Why would you when there are so many easy ways to increase the safetly equipment without changing how the game is played. Whoever mentioned treating lenses like HPA systems (expiration dates and visual inspections EVERY time you play) was right on. Also perhaps setting a minimum thickness for the lense, or a chinstrap to make sure they stay on. These are all simple things that wouldnt be too hard to impliment and would go miles towards making paintball even safer. Just my 2 cents,

REDRT

01-20-2005, 04:34 PM

Why decrease either? As the industry grows and everything, but mags get faster as of late. The max of 300fps outdoor 250/280fps indoor seems to work. Remember, the protective gear gets better too. It is us the players are demanding the equipment not the industry. I really don't see an issue other than lack of funds to support the high end stuff(I'm broke). It comes right down to,"if you can't hang with the big dogs, stay out of the yard". Maybe they should class the marker along with skill levels. Maybe then it would level the playing field and keep everyone happy. Just think you could have unlimited, electro, rt, classic semi-auto, and pump along with pro, amateur, novice, rookie, newbie...Like unlimited-pro, RT/rookie or mecanical semi-auto/newbie. You could take the marker up a level as you progressed in skill, but it wouldn't be aloud in lower levels like unlimited marker to classic semi-auto event. I think that would be more of the answer than limiting all to 1 max rof or even lower fps. See what you guys think about that idea.

PBX Ronin 23

01-20-2005, 06:51 PM

I’m sorry but you are going to have to lie out in spades, i.e. show statistical significance that this is the case. Let’s look at other cases where insurance carriers cracked down on certain types of claims. For example in Texas there are special provisions for Flood and Mold insurance because carriers were getting seriously hosed. Paintball is not anywhere near that point.
The mojority of the injuries that occur in paintball occur outside the realm of the supervised environment that exist in organized fields. I don't think that anybody will argue with this point.

Such being the case, paintball insurance won't be affected by these incidents. Usually, home owner's insurance will take the hit. Although there are no statistical information that I can provide, but you can certainly make a reasonable conclusion that if the home owners sector of the insurance industry carries the economic burden, they will act upon decreasing their liability.

That, in a way, is a form of outside intervention that will adversely affect the industry. If they exert enough pressure, you can bet that there will be enough legislative pressure to endanger the industry as a whole.

PBX Ronin 23

01-20-2005, 06:53 PM

"if you can't hang with the big dogs, stay out of the yard".

It's not the loss of the dogs that should be a collective concern for us........IT'S THE LOST OF THE YARD. Such shortsightedness from the players is part of the core of the problem that needs to be discussed along with the others that I enumerated on the original post.

hitech

01-20-2005, 07:26 PM

The majority of the injuries that occur in paintball occur outside the realm of the supervised environment that exists in organized fields. I don't think that anybody will argue with this point...Usually, home owner's insurance will take the hit.

I do question that. I'm not trying to say you are wrong, but this is the first time I have heard anyone claim that paintball related injury claims against home owners insurance policies are increasing. OR, are you saying that non-field paintball injuries are definitely increasing and they MAY increase claims against homeowner's insurance policies?

PBX Ronin 23

01-20-2005, 07:34 PM

The LATTER. No statiscal info to provide for this but it definitely was a main thrust of my conversation with that gentleman I referred to.

REDRT

01-20-2005, 07:47 PM

It's not the loss of the dogs that should be a collective concern for us........IT'S THE LOST OF THE YARD. Such shortsightedness from the players is part of the core of the problem that needs to be discussed along with the others that I enumerated on the original post.

:mad: Well, I didn't really feel I was shortsighted. But if you want to talk about safety outside the local fields, I'll give you another opinion. It sucks! I do not feel kids should run around playing in the backyard. Things could happen. Most of the time they are unsupervised and even if they were most parents are not qualifield as a first responder to an accident or a serious injury. And then lets on mention the public getting hit with a stray paintball. If I was to get hit by your kids pantball in my eye as I was walking down the sidewalk, I would sue the crap out of you and win. There is a time and place for everything. Paintball is on a field. My earlier suggestion was to try and come up with ways to help make field play more even and fair with out stepping on everybodys toes with this is what it should be, final answer.

PBX Ronin 23

01-20-2005, 07:51 PM

:mad: Well, I didn't really feel I was shortsighted. But if you want to talk about safety outside the local fields, I'll give you another opinion. It sucks! I do not feel kids should run around playing in the backyard. Things could happen. Most of the time they are unsupervised and even if they were most parents are not qualifield as a first responder to an accident or a serious injury. And then lets on mention the public getting hit with a stray paintball. If I was to get hit by your kids pantball in my eye as I was walking down the sidewalk, I would sue the crap out of you and win. There is a time and place for everything. Paintball is on a field. My earlier suggestion was to try and come up with ways to help make field play more even and fair with out stepping on everybodys toes with this is what it should be, final answer.
But the problem we're trying to address encompases within and without the realm of the regulated field. As the sport grows, we will see more and more of the situation that you've mentioned outside of the field environment.

There is no available means to control a lot of the things that can go wrong in the sport.....and that, in and of itself, is the problem.

Lohman446

01-20-2005, 07:59 PM

:mad: Well, I didn't really feel I was shortsighted. But if you want to talk about safety outside the local fields, I'll give you another opinion. It sucks! I do not feel kids should run around playing in the backyard. Things could happen. Most of the time they are unsupervised and even if they were most parents are not qualifield as a first responder to an accident or a serious injury. And then lets on mention the public getting hit with a stray paintball. If I was to get hit by your kids pantball in my eye as I was walking down the sidewalk, I would sue the crap out of you and win. There is a time and place for everything. Paintball is on a field. My earlier suggestion was to try and come up with ways to help make field play more even and fair with out stepping on everybodys toes with this is what it should be, final answer.

So basically if they don't play where you think they should play they shouldn't play?

Does this go further, that each field should be required to follow certain rules - have liscensed firts responders, perhaps and ambulance on stand-by (there was one for part of the last tournament I was actuallY), and do things only in a wa you approve of? Perhaps a government body to oversee all of this?

Kinda of a scary slope you start down there.

TheDuelist

01-20-2005, 08:02 PM

Another aspect of the insurance argument may be that it could be the one thing that forces the industry to come together to defend the way they make their living. Just like we have a gun lobby here, we could see that extended to paintball which then forces regulations on the industry to somehow oversee the problems affecting the sport in the biggest ways.

Personally I don't forsee the insurance gambit being the biggest player but with the size of the industry and the constant growth in sales I don't think the companies would just roll over and accept legislation that would put them out of business. I think you are not giving the profit hording capitalists enough credit to avert their demise.

REDRT

01-20-2005, 08:22 PM

hitech

01-20-2005, 08:28 PM

Paintball played on property with only a homeowners insurance policy is definitely a problem. However, I'm sure that homeowners insurance has covered claims where sporting equipment was improperly used and resulted in injury. I wonder how often that happens? I wonder what "they" did?

However, if the companies that underwrite these polices think the claims are becoming excessive we can be assured they will take action to protect themselves. And they won't care that it is to our detriment.

I think that the existing ASTM standard for markers needs to be followed. I'm all for making it the law. I also think it should be a requirement that the marker should not be able to be easily user adjustable such as to make them non-compliant.

REDRT

01-20-2005, 08:32 PM

So basically if they don't play where you think they should play they shouldn't play?

Does this go further, that each field should be required to follow certain rules - have liscensed firts responders, perhaps and ambulance on stand-by (there was one for part of the last tournament I was actuallY), and do things only in a wa you approve of? Perhaps a government body to oversee all of this?

Kinda of a scary slope you start down there.

NO, there is or should be at every certified field someone that has some form of firstaid training and has paintball safety training. The field is insured and set up for that use. The waiver is for the protecting of the field owner. There is alot of things that can go wrong, as with anything. The homeowner isn't going to have this.

PBX Ronin 23

01-20-2005, 08:38 PM

Here is the very first post. Where are you going with this? It started on the field and now it is at home. To regulate paintball at home is absurd. Who is going to enforce it?
That's the one of the core of the problem.....you can't legislate common sense. But as a community that encompasses the players, the manufacturers, the ASTM Sub-Committee, field operators and the major leagues, it behooves us to respond and if need be take pre-emptive measure to protect ourselves from undue and prhibitive legislation.

That's where I'm going with this and it seems like your sate is beginning to do just what I postulated outsiders will do to us is we do not take the necessary measure.

There is talk to outlaw it's play to only certified fields here in Wisconsin, so I've heard. I personaly think it should be played at the field. As it now there is no regs reguarding the play outside a paintball field. As with playing other games like football, basketball and so forth. But The land owner is liable for a certain amount of things, thus lawsuits everyday.
So you're further supporting what I have postulated by saying that non-paintball insurance people will be affected by these incidents outside of the field. Hence the probable, if not certain, increase in home owners insurance claims surrounding paintball related injuries.

REDRT

01-20-2005, 09:35 PM

Look at 9-11 and what it did to the nation regarding insurance costs.

REDRT

01-20-2005, 09:57 PM

PBX Ronin 23

01-20-2005, 10:25 PM

I still am unsure of the point, "Because of high rates of fire safety outside the field is down and insurance is going to go up"? Insurance is going to go up regardless of paintball, ask any doctor about insurance costs. I think regulations on the field have to be consistant before you can address them off the field.
What is implied is that with the cheater boards proliferating out there, the higher ROF achieved is the next safety issue that will potentially impact the industry in a negative way.

When accidents relating to paintball occur, it doesn't matter what it is, it will invariably result to negative publicity for the sport. If the economic burden to a certain sector in the insurance industry gets impacted enough, they will mobilize and lobby for new laws to help them with their burden.

Referencing an earlier post concerning older or 'compromised' lenses being hit with high ROF strings that these boards can produce, it will at some point cause problems both within an organized environment (field) and outside (renegade).

High ROF from cheater boards, tanks designed with no additional safeties, unsupervised play, etc. these are but some of the issues that can drive this industry down the toilet.

What I'm also implying with my original post is that with all the divergent interests in paintball, can we all work together to do the right thing for everyone.....

RRfireblade

01-20-2005, 10:34 PM

What is implied is that with the cheater boards proliferating out there, the higher ROF achieved is the next safety issue that will potentially impact the industry in a negative way.

When accidents relating to paintball occur, it doesn't matter what it is, it will invariably result to negative publicity for the sport. If the economic burden to a certain sector in the insurance industry gets impacted enough, they will mobilize and lobby for new laws to help them with their burden.

Most of those instances have nothing to do with ROF though.

Referencing an earlier post concerning older or 'compromised' lenses being hit with high ROF strings that these boards can produce, it will at some point cause problems both within an organized environment (field) and outside (renegade).

High ROF from cheater boards, tanks designed with no additional safeties, unsupervised play, etc. these are but some of the issues that can drive this industry down the toilet.

I think your focus is misplaced. The 'average' woodsballer is not using $1000 guns w/ cheater boards. They are using RT Tippys and E-Spyders set on full auto, in many cases, and have been doing so for quite some time.That has not and currently is not where the 'saftey' problems lie. The cheater board/chip craze,IMO, has had zero impact on this issue.

What I'm also implying with my original post is that with all the divergent interests in paintball, can we all work together to do the right thing for everyone.....

As I see it.

felony

01-20-2005, 10:45 PM

Problem Solved!

http://www.blowgunsnw.com/wr3c.jpg

yeah

xball would be pimptastic :tard:

PBX Ronin 23

01-20-2005, 11:36 PM

As I see it.
What if the industry adopted a standard for CO2 valves that provides for a safety vent in the event that it accidentally gets unscrewed. What if they did this in 2003. Do you thing that the accidental paintball related deaths in 2004 would have been prevented?

Also, who would have thought five years ago that the mass retailers like WalMart will be carrying electros for under $300. Would it be an unreasonable assumption that what is cutting edge today that's sold at a premium be available to the lower segment of the market in several years? I know as a manufacturer that eventually I would like my products to sell to that segment of the market because it is the most lucrative one. Not the high-end segment that most people think.

In as much as there is no directed correlation between higher ROF resulting from cheater boards to some of TODAY's incidents, should we as an industry take a lackadaisical attitude and wait for things to happen before we go ahead and correct problem?

Or should we have some foresight and act proactively in taking pre-emptive measures to prevent something that can easily be prevented. Understand one thing, I am not offering a panacea. What I want to achieve is a thoughtful discourse on the subject on hand.

RRfireblade

01-21-2005, 12:26 AM

I understand your feeling as well as your intent. It's simply my opinion that ROF has not been,is not currently and I don't expect it to be the primary cause for injury in the near future.We have already reached what is likely the practical limites of ROF. Even the most advanced markers and loaders will not reliably feed and fire much past the mid 20's.I don't see it where a few more BPS at those R'sOF is going to have a drastic impact.

The most common injuries since the beggining of the sport have really not changed.They are and have always been basic issues with the proper use of protective gear and the intended use of the other products involved.Doesn't matter whether the ROF at the time is 5bps or 25. That issue has not and likey will not change with the 'typical' unsupervised,un-organized,non-commercial field player.These are the kids riding bikes without helmets(law have not changed that) skateboarding in un-approved areas (law have not changed that)swimming,playing,hanging,partying....in unsafe and unsupervised and unprotected areas. And guess what, laws have not changed that in the 20-30 years since I was a 'kid'.

Know what has changed? Parental guidance,parental responsibilty,parental control of THIER own children.Everyone else is always to blame for little 'johnny' who had some tragic accident while Mommy and Daddy were both at work, or watching the 'game' or what ever they felt was more important than the safety of thier own children.You want to have an impact on the sport?Our sport? Any sport...any activity...any other recreation? You have to start at home with the only people who can REALLY make a difference.

Oh...and it aint gonna be easy because it's never going to be thier fault...especially with the yellow pages flooded with Lawyers who will work on contingency.

Keep in mind I'm talking about the most common types of safety issues, not the rare isolated cases like the 2 CO2 tragedys from last year.With hundreds of thousands of new people playing every year,a few of those types of cases are regretfully un-aviodable, IMO,whatever you try and do.

PBX Ronin 23

01-21-2005, 02:08 AM

Know what has changed? Parental guidance,parental responsibilty,parental control of THIER own children.Everyone else is always to blame for little 'johnny' who had some tragic accident while Mommy and Daddy were both at work, or watching the 'game' or what ever they felt was more important than the safety of thier own children.You want to have an impact on the sport?Our sport? Any sport...any activity...any other recreation? You have to start at home with the only people who can REALLY make a difference.

You sound like the Charles Barkley of paintball. Of course everything starts at home. My six year old can tell you that. But using this as an excuse is just as disengeneous as Barkley in absolving himself of having any influence over the youth of America. Assigning blame to parents rather than seeing what positives he can contribute to the youth of America is too easy a cop-out for someone who has gained so much influence and prestige for being so out-spoken.

Do you really think that the paintball industry taken as a whole (manufacturers, players, field operators, ASTM committee and major league promoters), should seek absolution from their obligation in ensuring the future of the sport by finding a convenient place to assign blame? Or should we all find some tangible means to work collectively in ensuring that same future?

In the final analysis, the choice has always been ours to make. The problem is creating the mechanism to effect the policies the we must all collectively make.

manike

01-21-2005, 09:41 AM

you can't legislate common sense.

If only!! I wish we could...

RRfireblade

01-21-2005, 10:19 AM

You like to bounce off the extremes huh? ;)

Barkley? Uhm....K.

I thought you were concerned that Cheater boards were going to be responsible for the demise of Paintball.

That was what I was addressing and think my stance on that is quite clear.There's no need to twist it into the 'industry' obsolving itself of all responsibility. There is middle ground in there somewhere...I'm pretty sure. :)

Theses types of knee jerk discussions never cease to amaze me,many years ago WDP was going to kill paintball with it's Patent assaults,then a few years ago Smart Parts had 'killed' paintball...what are we gonna do, year and a half ago CO2 tanks were going to be the end of the industry.

Ultimately, there's always way more drama here on these boards than anyone in the private sector is experiencing...or concerned about. It's like certain people just have a need to create a catastrophe and then champion the 'cause'... when typically not warranted.

That's one reason I try and stay out of these threads (didn't do well on that here huh? ) because they are usually misguided,bend and twist all around the original point and seem to only exist to create an arguement or controversy. Not to mention have ZERO effect on the intended cause.

So I'm just going to back out now. Let me know where to sign the E-Petition when the time comes and we'll go from there.

Thanks. :)

manike

01-21-2005, 10:39 AM

REDRT

01-21-2005, 01:15 PM

ROF is going to change the world of paintball as we know it, Bah! ROF doesn't stop the miltaries of the world why should affect us. High rates of fire is going to be the norm and it is going to force the slackers to catch up or get out unless maybe we adopt something like I suggested in my first post. Outside the playing field isn't under are control and the argument is futile.

CaliMagFan

01-21-2005, 01:51 PM

Ultimately, there's always way more drama here on these boards than anyone in the private sector is experiencing...or concerned about. It's like certain people just have a need to create a catastrophe and then champion the 'cause'... when typically not warranted.

No kidding... those pesky soap-boxing zealots need to get real. Think of all the special interest groups that ruffled a lot of feathers by overreacting and still did nothing for the good of the world:

American Colonial Rebels- c.1770

Slavery Abolistionist- c.1860

Women's Sufferagrettes- c.1920

Civil Rights Supporters (Damn MLK)- c.1955

What were these special interest groups thinking? I HATE it when one group thinks that just cause they have a problem with something, everyone should feel the same!!!

What is the world comming to?

I'm glad there are people on this board like RRfireblade and Manike to keep everything in perspective for us.

and yes, that was a slight.

-kyro

RRfireblade

01-21-2005, 02:30 PM

CaliMagFan

01-21-2005, 03:49 PM

Yeah...a Paintball related internet message board and the topics you referenced are on equal ground. :rolleyes:

But...thanks for exemplifing the radical jumps to extremes that I had made a point of.As more and more people like yourself continue to make posts, my job of exposing that flawed thought process only get's easier.

Slight right back at you. ;)

I'm baffled... Does what you said make sense to you on second read?

I think I made my point clear, and if you didn't understand it, then I'm not offended in anyway. You think how you like to think, so long as you're in to that type of thing. I just hope that you can someday come to grips with the concept of there being a spectrum of philosophical ideologies.

I see you talk about "...that flawed thought process..." and how it only "...get's easier..." to point it out, but I haven't seen anything to support the statement that you are doing that with any amount of success. If you can come up with some, I'd love to see it, otherwise stop acting like you got your hands on my nuts.

-kyro

RRfireblade

01-21-2005, 05:03 PM

I understand it perfectly.

Your trying to make a parallel between real life pertinent crisis/tragedys to that of a small,normally one sided,interent paintball forum post 'created' based on the single opinion of an anonymous (for the most part) forum member,about what he 'percieves' as a potential crisis capable of effecting the entire paintball industry...and....BTW...has stated no,none,zero..directly relating facts to support that stance other than hearsay,speculation and conjecture.

Which was exactly the thing I stated was wrong with these threads in the first place.

Seems quite simple to undersand to me.

But I, unlike so many others, am perfectly fine to agree to disagree and move on. Which I will now do, but thanks anyway and enjoy the rest of your day. :)

Now where's that unsubscribe button.......

"click" :D

REDRT

01-21-2005, 05:09 PM

PBX Ronin 23

01-22-2005, 10:09 PM

As Manike has stated, the industry itself has taken a lot of safety driven measures that the common guy just doesn't see. Lenses are better now than what they were just 3 years ago is just to site one example. I can also reasonably speculate that manufacturers do spend money in making their products safe and better. After all, it is they who must shoulder the burden of remaining insurable for product liability insurance coverage.

But RRFireblade, I really think that you're missing the biggest point....and no slight intended. The concept of higher ROF because of cheater boards is the issue du jour. You can very well change that issue and the time line to whatever year.

For example, it's 2001 and the issue is the unsafe design of CO2 valve that do not have a safety vent when they are accidentally become unscrewed. The industry in general points towards the low number of incidents and make a determination that it is statistically inconsequential. Not worth losing sleep over and certainly not worth changing existing standards. Yes we know how to fix it but why bother.......turn to 2003 and to two funerals.

Can the issue of Increased ROF due to Cheater Boards lead to death? Probably not but it can certainly lead to increased probability of someone losing an eye (or both eyes). Should we approach it like we did the CO2 valve issue in 2001?

I don't think the CaliMagFan is really that obtuse in his last post. Perhaps it is I who has been obtuse. The drive of this discussion is more to make it evident that we really don’t have a mechanism to make the necessary correction….all we may have is the desire to do what’s right. But lacking both direction and leadership, we are left with no other avenue beyond prognostication.