Giving tickets a way to reduce cheating?

[Gunga]

This got me thinking...


I think we are talking apples and oranges here. Cheating… hmmmm

Why do cars go faster than the speed limit? Because they do. And that means ANY speed limit, to include the 5mph limits in parking lots.

Now if you want to talk about “cheating” and automobiles, you have to talk about cheating in a SPORT which uses them if you want to compare it to paintball “cheating”. And guess what? All sports which use motorized vehicles have rules to follow. If you are caught breaking those rules there are consequences.

What if a cheater were given a ticket whenever they were caught cheating (in addition to whatever in-game penalty)? The fine would vary depending on the severity of the infraction. But the fines should be relatively high (gun cheat fines even higher perhaps?), so they put a big bite into the cheater's wallet.

"But I'm poor," they might plead. Well...being poor doesn't prevent them from getting a speeding ticket. No one forced them to speed (or cheat). Don't tell me you gun must've put itself into <insert cheat mode here> by itself.

If someone (or maybe a team) racks up X amount in fines without paying, they could be either not allowed to play until said fine is paid (kicked out of the current tourney and not allowed to enter future tourneys), penalized some points (if it takes you out of the finals, too bad), or whatever else.

If said individual/team complains that "HEY! I paid a lot for this tourney!". Well, you also knew the rules and consequences of breaking said rules when you signed up. Too bad.

To avoid any complaints that "They're just giving me a ticket to increase their profits!" the fine money could be donated to a charity (or used towards more beer at the players party). ;) :cheers:

Obviously, this is just a initial 'what if' kind of idea. Lots of details would have to be worked out. Also, some limited way for 'the accused' to attempt to defend themselves as we live in an overly litigious society. :tard:

As a practical matter, this idea would have to be carried out by either the PSP or NPPL (and as such probably won't ever happen) as they have the player ID system going. You'd have to track the offenders and their fines somehow.

So to summarize, hit the cheaters in the wallet as well as with in-game penalties to reduce cheating (hopefully by a lot). Thoughts?

[WenULiVeUdiE]

How will the field make them pay the ticket?

[Lurker27]

pay or leave/ban.

I love it.

[Gunga]

How will the field make them pay the ticket?

This'd be targeted towards the regular regional or national tourney circuit. Ones that teams would want to be a part of. It would have little practical effect at a 'one off' tourney held at your local field.

If so and so player or team doesn't pay their fines, they can't be a part of the other tourneys in the series/circuit until the fine is paid off.

[Muzikman]

It works in other professional sports.

[dahvaio]

If it is a tournament and the person was caught cheating... Ban from all tournaments for life. There should be a board that is maintained with a list of names and addresses of anyone who cheats. This way anyone who is sponsoring or setting up a tournament can cross-check with this list. Personally, I despise cheating and have no idea why people do it... There is no honor in cheating.

However, I do not think the system is perfect nor will it ever be. One problem is that if I get shot, is it my responsibility to perform a self-inspection or is it the Ref's job? I think like any other sport, if the Ref's do not catch you in the act, then it is fair game. That is what makes sport's so great because it is not perfect and there are human elements that still dicatate the sport. So if a Ref' does not catch me in the act, is it cheating? For example, in Football, if I throw a receiver on the ground before he can catch the ball and the Ref's do not catch it, should the player be flagged? I hope not because it is all part of the game... but is it still cheating, yes and no... If this was a perfect world then no one would cheat, everyone would be gracious and no one would win because there would be no competition...

Fining people? What?... Terrible... Just DQ them or their team out of the tournament.. The only way to fine them is to have it in writing and then show them proof... IMO, it seems like it would be a lot more work to fine someone, and then to collect it.


All that can be done is to improve the rules and have better trained referee's....

[GT]

WEEEEK!!!

if you want to enforce the rules about cheating bring a stick! Ban and/or DQ them from the event. You honestlty think a ticket will stop them? Now you have to pay to cheat and if the stakes are high enough that just may pay.

[SlartyBartFast]

In game penalties, points removed after a game, forfeiture of games, disqualifications, and varying bans should be sufficient to curb rules infractions and cheating.

If they can't enforce/apply the rules they have, how are they going to enforce/apply fines?

[Kevmaster]

WEEEEK!!!

if you want to enforce the rules about cheating bring a stick! Ban and/or DQ them from the event. You honestlty think a ticket will stop them? Now you have to pay to cheat and if the stakes are high enough that just may pay.

JJ...I tihnk it would work fine.

Although too many team's sposnors might pick up the tab...not sure.

NPPL already has a fine system in place for leaving the staging area messy...doubt they've ever fined someone though

[Gunga]

IIMO, it seems like it would be a lot more work to fine someone, and then to collect it.


All that can be done is to improve the rules and have better trained referee's....

Not much involved in collecting it. If they don't pay it, they don't play in your series again. Rules and trained refs have helped some, but not much.



In game penalties, points removed after a game, forfeiture of games, disqualifications, and varying bans should be sufficient to curb rules infractions and cheating.

If they can't enforce/apply the rules they have, how are they going to enforce/apply fines?

In game penalties etc certainly help. But there's still rampant cheating. As for enforcing rules...perhaps by enforcing the fines, they can use that money towards more refs or some other anti gun cheat technology (perhaps still have some of the fine $$ go towards charity or beer).



if you want to enforce the rules about cheating bring a stick! Ban and/or DQ them from the event. You honestlty think a ticket will stop them? Now you have to pay to cheat and if the stakes are high enough that just may pay.

Hmmm...I suppose if player gets X number of tickets (whether the tickets are paid or not) in a given tournament or series, there could be penalties as well. Such as if player X gets Y number of tickets, they're out of the tournament or the series for that year, even if they do pay the fines. If they do not pay the fines, they're out of the series permanently, until said fines are paid. Could have a similar setup for teams.



Although too many team's sposnors might pick up the tab...not sure.


Hmm...could make the player/team records available on the tourney organizer's website. Show the # of tickets, what the tickets were for, fines paid or outstanding. If the fines are paid, show who paid the fine.

I doubt a sponsor would want their name posted multiple times for paying for player X's fines. Or if player X has a extensive 'rap sheet' that's publically available, it's not going to be good for a company's image to sponsor said player. So... Continual Cheater = Fewer/no sponsorships. It'd encourage people not to cheat in a round about way.

[SlartyBartFast]

All that can be done is to improve the rules and have better trained referee's....

Nobody really knows how to obey or enforce the rules as currently written.

If the rules were actually followed to the letter, each and ever elimination called by a ref should be a "1 for 1" seeing as in all the official rules the fact you are supposed to check yourself when hit means that ANY detection of an 'obvious' hit by a ref could be read as playing on.

[hitech]

The Lively Tournaments was in the process of starting something similar just before it's demise. They were going to keep track of ALL penalties for each individual player. Too many and you wouldn't be allowed to participate in future tournaments. They hadn't come up with the details. They had just started to collect the information.

Sometimes I'm amazed at how far backward tournament rules (and there enforcement) have gone. :(

[Enemy]

fines work!!! i like the idea now to get a league that will do it with out stressing what dye or wdp or sp is going to say when they fined their top teams!!! right now the tourneys are still hard to control with noone stepping up with any real solutions!! hopefully it will get better but i see it getting alittle worse before then!

[Evil1]

I think fines would definitely do the trick if they were stiff enough. When I was younger, I got a few tickets when I first started driving, and after paying fines, higher insurance bills, and having my car taken away, I drove much more carefully and haven't got a ticket in 6 years. I know that is a bit different, but it is the same principle. I always had another idea about cheaters in paintball. I always thought if you were caught cheating, that the player caught cheating should have to wear a brightly colored jersey with the word "cheater" in big letters on it and you would have to wear it to all tournaments for a set amount of time depending on the severity of the player's cheating. That way everyone would know you were caught cheating. If you were caught cheating again either while wearing the special jersey or after, you would be suspended for the remainder of the season. Another solution worth mentioning while were on the topic would be NOT to punish the cheating player, but instead his/her whole team. That way, your whole team would be breathing down your throat which in most cases would get the point across.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Wouldnt it be possible for sponsors to pay the ticket for them? If the team is good, and the sponsor really wants them, why wouldnt they? So then you have cheating players who dont pay for it themselves. Then again the sponsor could be furious and drop the ponsorship all together.

[Gunga]

Wouldnt it be possible for sponsors to pay the ticket for them? If the team is good, and the sponsor really wants them, why wouldnt they? So then you have cheating players who dont pay for it themselves. Then again the sponsor could be furious and drop the ponsorship all together.

Addressed that in my previous post. ;)

[digitard]

I think the only problem with 'tickets' is that they're relying on the refs call...

In most professional sports if a call is questioned they have a camera system that will allow the ref to view what happened, or they have multiple ref's following the same action (football is the guy w/ the ball, basketball same thing, baseball its wherever the ball is going). You can have a focal point that multiple ref's can see from various angles.

In paintball you may have 4-5 refs watching a field, but they're primarily watching certain spots. Not to mention a lot of ref's would require some '100% standard and specifialized' training course so taht all ref's go through the same training and have a high quality of ref'ing so that there's not a discrepancy on training. They would all need the same stuff so that theres a ref'ing standard.

Then there's the 'backup system'. They would need some type of video recording system in place that covers both sides of each field so if a team/player believes they were pulled unfairly they can question it just like Football and if they're right somethign would need to be done, and just like football if they're wrong they get another type of penalty. In a system with fines for cheating you would need to give the players a way to rebute the charge and if they're found right do they have to replay the match?

I think fining is a great idea... it would definitaly discourage cheating. But for the idea to materialize they would have to put a lot of 'changes' into the sport which I'm not sure would be financially feasable right now. Who knows though.

okay im sick, im rambling and im even starting to confuse myself.

[LudavicoSoldier]

I propose a ticket in the form of a PGP loaded with pepper balls! :D

[FreakBaller12]

It won't work unless had leagues do that and any new league will with a good way of enforcing it..Think of it this way, If i would risk a money fine and no fines in the other, which would you pick? Even if nxl,psp, and nppl all do it, it opens up the door for a new league and EASILY attract all the pro teams that also bring the crowds.

[digitard]

You wouldn't be risking a money fine if you weren't cheating.

[Miscue]

How about DQ'ing players when cheating? The problem is, they cheat so well it's hard to tell sometimes if it was on purpose or coincidence. And it could very well be coincidence or an accident on occassion. I think it's worse to penalize an innocent person, than to miss a guilty person.

I've played on lots of times on accident - or have done things that would be cheating if on purpose. I've been shot in the leg, and didn't feel it because I had a squeegee in my pocket - and played on. I'm sure all of us have had something similar happen.

I think that maybe a rule like, you can't dive head first might be helpful... even if it was limited to just the break.

White cotton jerseys... white cotton gloves. :D

[SlartyBartFast]

How about DQ'ing players when cheating? The problem is, they cheat so well it's hard to tell sometimes if it was on purpose or coincidence. And it could very well be coincidence or an accident on occassion. I think it's worse to penalize an innocent person, than to miss a guilty person.

While that's an admirable opinion when the penalty is jail time or capital punishment, we're talking game penalties here.

Do you care if a high stick was deliberate or accidental? Interference in basketball? or any other rules violation and penalty in any other sport? No.

You're gun goes FA when FA isn't allowed and the penalty is a DQ for you and your team? Tough. Get a better marker next time.

You "accidentally" rubbed the hit off your arm on the bunker? TOUGH. 1 for 1 or 2 for 1 as per the rule book. (Rules say you should have checked it as soon as you should have felt it anyways.)

[Miscue]

While that's an admirable opinion when the penalty is jail time or capital punishment, we're talking game penalties here.

Do you care if a high stick was deliberate or accidental? Interference in basketball? or any other rules violation and penalty in any other sport? No.

You're gun goes FA when FA isn't allowed and the penalty is a DQ for you and your team? Tough. Get a better marker next time.

You "accidentally" rubbed the hit off your arm on the bunker? TOUGH. 1 for 1 or 2 for 1 as per the rule book. (Rules say you should have checked it as soon as you should have felt it anyways.)

Well, that was in reference is passing out "fines" to players - or tossing them from the tourny completely. It would suck to be fined or thrown out when you didn't do anything on purpose.

[jekyll]

i don't see how fines could be enforced. It might be more effective if players automatically lose x point/s every tournament game they play for every ticket they have. That way it becomes harder to win and more likely they will get kicked off their team.

[CaliMagFan]

i don't see how fines could be enforced. It might be more effective if players automatically lose x point/s every tournament game they play for every ticket they have. That way it becomes harder to win and more likely they will get kicked off their team.


To you and WenULiVeUdiE... There is something in this world called a credit card. Force teams to submit a valid credit card number to pay for the event and to give the series and the Ruling agencies access to funds should the teams be fined.

Right now soccer teams and other sports organizations are Incorporations, they have CEOs and the whole 9 yards. If the league wants to sue the SF 49's or one of it's players for a reason, they have the means to do it cause the teams cannot be part of the the league if they don't have an account with the league.

It makes a lot more red tape, and kinda turns things into a beurocracy, but it might be necessary..

-kyro

[SlartyBartFast]

Well, that was in reference is passing out "fines" to players - or tossing them from the tourny completely. It would suck to be fined or thrown out when you didn't do anything on purpose.

But, if penalties won't make people learn and improve their skills so they don't "accidentally" break the rules, what will.

My view is still that discussion of stricter rules is pointless until the current rules are enforced properly.