How do we fix AO?

[Miscue]

I've been on here a long time - and I think AO was one of the best forums out there. I can't put my finger on it, but it does not feel the same. It doesn't feel like a community as much any more, and I don't really know why. I'd like for AO to continue to be something special on the Internet.

There's been a lot of complaining, with little constructiveness.
Rule for this thread: Be constructive. No complaining without proposed solutions.

I'm going to go out on a limb here... but stupidity = ban of undisclosed amount of time in this thread. :p And... pruning will be very liberal.

Is it really broken, or just a matter of things changing over time?

What made AO good?

What still makes it good?

What has changed?

How do we improve it?

[BD_Paintball]

*Pruned* -Miscue


but then no one would be here. i think it should be less strict. i am always watching what i post and make sure i dont make anyone mad b/c maybe ill get temp banned for flaming or something. i like PBN's small talk b/c they really dont care what you post as long as it is not p0rn(hope i can say that). and like mango said you know somthing is not right when all the members that have been here for a long time are leaving.

when i first joined i think it was alot less strict and more ppl came here. now i find myself going to pbn for things when befor i came here. i domt know what it is but i think being less strict will help

edit to miscue below me: i think what the mods thing is annoying is different then what most the members think is. i like when mango whould post random smilies but i know you didnt like it b/c there was no reason. i like all the different faces that i have never seen befor and most things he posted i thought was funny. i would say to be less strict in friendly but keep the other parts as it . most ppl have a problem in friendly and not other parts of the forum

[Miscue]

What about "annoying" or "rude" members. There isn't really a rule against that. Should there be?

[OysterBoy]

God, I hope not; otherwise I would be SO banned.


I just think that the people who actually apreciated what AO is for will stay, NOT flame / break the rules, or atleast wait it out somewhere (passively; not flaming as they leave) until the tension dies down.

[fire1811]

IMO I think the majority of memebers were more mature in the past. Younger crowd seems to be the majority now and they need a little more guidance.

[Miscue]

IMO I think the majority of memebers were more mature in the past. Younger crowd seems to be the majority now and they need a little more guidance.

Ah... how? I believe this too.

[thecavemankevin]

this quote from mango in another similar thread seemed to about sum it all up for me.


A few of the mods on here need to leave AO for good.

You would think that they would reflect upon themselves and thier own actions. Ask themselves "Why are so many of AO's older members leaving?" Those like myself who have been here for 3+ years.

AO needs fewer mods who try to change AO to be what THEY want it to be. It's plain and simple that they are going to be AO's undoing.

Too many captains for this boat.


but to add to it how about people just lighten up? furthermore, when it is a simple mistake like the link thordic had, why wasn't he warned instead of just having it deleted, same with my old sig. The rules are actually not rules, they say "guidelines" not rules/laws. if there is a blatent violation then fine, but if it is minor, especially with upstanding members, why not show a little respect to said user and let them know it needs to be changed rather than going on a power trip.

It seems to me that the mods (miscue your not included in this part) in general are going on a power trip and handing out bans left and right...and to the general publice there is little need or explination for it. Thus leading to hurt feelings and people up and leaving.

Can AO be fixed? not likely....unfortunatly :(

i have a feeling AO has been at its platuea for a while now....and now there is only one way for it to go

[cphilip]

I think a few of the older members have acted less mature and are hiding behind the fact that they are old members... as if it entitles them to something.

The rules and thier enforcement are the same as always. Just lately... more people are trying to challenge them. And endlessly argue as to why they should be allowed to. In fact old AO had the same rules as new AO.... only thing that has changed is the attitude of the members... both new and old in some cases...

[teufelhunden]

What about "annoying" or "rude" members. There isn't really a rule against that. Should there be?


Yes.

[Lohman446]

I make it a point to not try to annoy the moderators.. I don't want there job, I don't envy the decisions they have to make, and as such I really beleive that I should, most of the time, not open my mouth.

In my opinion, the mods have been lenient. We have had a series of people try to do nothing but score e-cool points in there clique, and when a moderator took action against that clique we let them abuse the moderators in the sigs, and in general just all the time. We have taken a group that questioned the power of their group, and handed more over. I stated elsewhere, and I will restate it - I think public complaining about moderator actions (such as a ban, sig. editing, etc) should be grounds for a ban. There are PMs and e-mail for this type of thing, noone else needs to see the whining. Disagree with a moderator, fine, state that disagreement to them, perhaps to several moderators, but remember they, not you, not your precious clique, hold the power. In the end, chances are you were wrong. Apologize, get over it, and move on. If this sounds to hard... grow up. The moderators try... publically whining about them is an annoyance to most of us. The moderators are not out to get you, I'm certain they have better things to do. Broke a rule, was it a mistake, apologize, learn, and be better in the future.

[NITH]

I'm theorizing here, so just go with it.

The popularity of paintball has grown huge (duh). But of course it is a luxury to play paintball. And since it is a luxury younger people have more time than common adults to dwell on the sport. Sure us old people can afford cooler stuff (not in my instance) even though a "kid" may save all summer and buy a Emag with plenty of upgrades. But what I am trying to say is "kids" have the time to sit on the forum all day. I work and go to school and get to check this thing once a month if I am lucky.

Take the above with a grain of salt.

-Jon

[OysterBoy]

Natural response would be to enforce the rules more so; but that didn't seem to help. I've seen SOME forums have a feature where, before actually posting, you see a selection of text summarizing the rules in point form, as well as a search key highlighted. This screen dissapears after a certain amount of time; it could help with younger / immature members not knowing the rules, but it would get rather annoying. On the flip side, it could be based on 'experience'; if you've been registered for longer then XX amount of time, the screen doesnt appear.. this is all just random thinking, most of which would require more coding / scripting then I would ever want to see.

[SAW]

I sense a hint of elitism from some of the longer-standing members. Personally, I find this to be rude and quite childish.
I was never around to witness the "Good Old Days", so I'll leave the other suggestions to those that were!

[TheDuelist]

Everything changes over time. One day you wake up and realize your not 18 anymore. If your looking to capture what AO used to have I think you have to be a motivating factor for the change. Remind people what the old days were like. Warn the bad posters about certain behavior, etc. I don't believe you'll ever get that same feeling agin but it could come close. Compare it to a new care. Once the "new car smelll" is gone all you can do is go buy a can of the fake scent from the store and reminisce.

[cphilip]

this quote from mango in another similar thread seemed to about sum it all up for me.




but to add to it how about people just lighten up? furthermore, when it is a simple mistake like the link thordic had, why wasn't he warned instead of just having it deleted, same with my old sig. The rules are actually not rules, they say "guidelines" not rules/laws. if there is a blatent violation then fine, but if it is minor, especially with upstanding members, why not show a little respect to said user and let them know it needs to be changed rather than going on a power trip.

It seems to me that the mods (miscue your not included in this part) in general are going on a power trip and handing out bans left and right...and to the general publice there is little need or explination for it. Thus leading to hurt feelings and people up and leaving.

Can AO be fixed? not likely....unfortunatly :(

i have a feeling AO has been at its platuea for a while now....and now there is only one way for it to go

Again, and your pretty famous for this, you assume everything played out in public. When in fact things happened off AO and you would be suprised how nasty they were. But I cannot talk about it. But again.... I caution you.. to not assume you have seen it all or know it all from what you see in posts here on AO. You would be mistaken.

[OysterBoy]

Withdrawn.

I sincerely hope things get back on track.. AO used to really cheer me up and get me thinking.

[Miscue]

Again, and your pretty famous for this, you assume everything played out in public. When in fact things happened off AO and you would be suprised how nasty they were. But I cannot talk about it. But again.... I caution you.. to not assume you have seen it all or know it all from what you see in posts here on AO. You would be mistaken.

Yeah, that's a problem. There's often a background story that others are not aware of, and then do not understand why we take certain actions. We should not have to explain it everytime.

[Lohman446]

I posted this in another thread.. and think it is worth posting here again, I beleive the problem lies in that we, as individuals, think of "we" in the collective, rather than "we" in the individual, as a group of individuals.

Many of us have asked this question of ourselves in a what can we as a collective can do to fix AO. Is it more moderators, a different format, a different forum, etc.?

Let me take a moment and instead discuss what we... as individuals can do to promote an AO that is more friendly and "deeper" than other forums. These following things are not jabs at anyone, and I am often guilty of them myselfs. Perhaps they don't apply to friendly corner, where I have a lot of fun and enjoy posting.

~We can take the time to read every post to a subject before replying. To consider each viewpoint, and how its holder got there.

~We can make our views static, available to change. I will confess I have some beleifs, some views, that you are not going to change. However, lets try to have discussions, to mold each of our beleifs. They are discussions, not arguments. Taking points and ideas from those that would disagree with you and molding them into your own is not loosing.

~We can think, for a moment or two, before replying. Let our thougths come together, rather than just throwing out our base reactions.

~We can simply not respond to those who would inject themselves into a discussion for nothing more than disruptment but not hold ourselved above anyone. Consider each viewpoint... some of the most valid ideas come from unlikely sources.

~We can hold ourselves to standards we find acceptable. In discussion, in grammar, in spelling. We can can make our own standards higher than anyone elses... and realize noone as perfect. With that known we cannot fault others for simple mistakes.

This... in my opinion, is the way we should think if we are to bring back the "old AO". Its not the system to change.. its how we function in the system.

[Lohman446]

Yeah, that's a problem. There's often a background story that others are not aware of, and then do not understand why we take certain actions. We should not have to explain it everytime.


Agreed, a simple rule change

-- Discussion of specific moderator action or actions is to be done through private means only - they are not a topic of public discussion because of factors not always apparent. Moderators will not publically defend there actions and will simply ban users violating this rule and deleting posts find to violate this rule.

[gimp]

AO was great because it felt like a community. I'd never actually met anyone on here, but it didn't matter. It's still good because under all the drama that's been happening lately, there still is a community. I'm not sure what has changed, but I think I know when it started to change. People started talking about 'the old AO'. I think that caused a problem, not just talking about it, but complaining about how it changed. That got so popular, so everyone was doing it. People jumped on the bandwagon because they didn't want to be considered 'the new AO', or 'PBNrs'.

Another thing that seems to be more frequent in the past couple months is complaining and people being annoying. There are always going to be a couple people who post some annoying posts all the time. It's easy to ignore them. The problem is when people start to complain about it. They just add to the problem. If you look at the number of views for the threads, the stupid annoying ones would have so much more views than the 'intelligent' posts. People say 'this post is stupid, your dumb', 'that's why he's on my ignore list', 'what a waste of time', etc. If it's stupid, or a waste of time, why post in it. Your just bumping it to the top of the page. This place wouldn't be friendly if we didn't have stupid posts. We've always had stupid posts, but there was a lot less drama around them. That made the more intelligent posts get more visibility.

I don't think the mod's have the power to 'fix' this place. If someone causes a problem, banning him will just cause more people to complain. For every popular member that gets banned, a few followers go with him. At that rate, nobody will be left. It's up to the members. Right now everyone is all riled up. People need to calm down. We shouldn't even need moderators, we should be able to moderate ourselves. The mods should step in when we're unable to do that. And that shouldn't happen to often. Now I lost my train of thought and I'm rambling.

*edit - Man you guys are fast. There was like, 3 replies when I started writing this. Now there are a lot of good ones.

[cphilip]

Great post Lohman!

Miscue, the problem is... as you know... I spend lots of time explaining... over and over... and yet, what happens? Tonight several people have called us Nazis and accused us of not allowing discussion! I give up! I try and try to explain the reasoning and all... but they chose NOT to get it!

[Miscue]

One idea I had is: A paintball topic of the week... or something. Sticky it. Change it next week.

We gotta do something different... something to liven up the place. Something that will catch the interest of the sorts of people that make AO good.

Ideas? Or am I wishfully thinking?

[OysterBoy]

One idea I had is: A paintball topic of the week... or something. Sticky it. Change it next week.

We gotta do something different... something to liven up the place. Something that will catch the interest of the sorts of people that make AO good.

Ideas? Or am I wishfully thinking?


What would it hurt ?

One thing I kind of dislike is the abundance of stickies in general.. I know, minor gripes. I do however think weekly polls / topics would be great.

[fire1811]

another thing is that its winter not much paintball or anything else to do.

when people get bored they will make something to do. and at the moment that seems to be complaining

[PBX Ronin 23]

What about "annoying" or "rude" members. There isn't really a rule against that. Should there be?Who defines "annoying" and "rude"? If you can do that to the satisfaction of most (if not all) then adopt a zero tolerance policy, then it's a step in the right direction.

There are also quite a bit of other things as well. Take heed to Fire1811's opinion about the less mature. Unfortunately the younger crowd is an ever increasing group in paintball. But not all of them are Knuckleheads. There are sharp young dudes like Lurker 27 who frequent this forum. Make it furtile grounds for young guys like him.

Decorum. Maintain it. This is a PG rated forum. The older guys who (and some of the younger guys as well) may appreciate contents of a more mature nature. Personally so do I. But it is neither our individual right or perogative to introduce such items into an privately owned forum who's owner is intent on keeping the environment "family" oriented. Those who cannot see the value of respecting this boundary, well what else can be said.

Keep intense discussions civil. Those who enjoy debating their points cleanly and in a polite manner may not necessarily get the same in return. Lesser minds tend to stray towards hostile retorts because they may not be able to go toe-to-toe on legitemate grounds. Don't escalate. The merits of an arguement should stand on its own and there will be people who will either agree or disagree with your perspective. Neither your nor I will always be right.

Come up with some type of an acknowledgement system to recognize those who contribute productively. Those who enrich AO either through their intellect or their willingness to help others should be held in better esteem within the AO community.

The best of AO to me represents the inteligensia of the the paintball community. We might not all see things eye to eye but at the very least we all tried to enlighten one another in a constructive way.....this is the AO that I remember and the standard that should be maintained.

Lastly, I am saddened in some measure of the loss of certain long-standing members of the community. Whether we saw each other eye to eye or not, there are certain people I will miss for what it is that they've contributed. Good luck to you and my best wishes to you in your future endeavors.

[Miscue]

Great post Lohman!

Miscue, the problem is... as you know... I spend lots of time explaining... over and over... and yet, what happens? Tonight several people have called us Nazis and accused us of not allowing discussion! I give up! I try and try to explain the reasoning and all... but they chose NOT to get it!

Well... we keep tabs on what each other does. If there was a blatant problem... another mod would step in. So none of us can go into Nazi mode - because the others would notice... and most of us do pay attention to what the other does.

But sometimes... things go on between a couple mods and some person or group, and the other mods have no idea what's going on. In those situations, I have to trust their judgment based on track record and what I know of them. I know I've gone off on a limb before, and other mods would say "I not sure about what you're doing, but I'll trust you." And that seems to work out pretty well.

[thecavemankevin]

There are PMs and e-mail for this type of thing, noone else needs to see the whining. Disagree with a moderator, fine, state that disagreement to them, perhaps to several moderators, but remember they, not you, not your precious clique, hold the power. In the end, chances are you were wrong. Apologize, get over it, and move on. If this sounds to hard... grow up. The moderators try... publically whining about them is an annoyance to most of us. The moderators are not out to get you, I'm certain they have better things to do. Broke a rule, was it a mistake, apologize, learn, and be better in the future.

but it is when the mods don't answer/reply to the pm's ect that people start posting out loud. I know i have had a few issues in the past, tried pm's to several mods for a day or two and NEVER EVER heard back. So next i turned to voicing out loud. Only then did i get a reply.

[Head knight of Ni]

I think Cphil hit it on the head. Older members have an elitest attitude, Its not right and not all old members have the attitude. Why the sudden problem? Who knows who cares. AO has no real problems, survival of the fittest. Like gravity the rules are there and you know it, some idiots still jump of their roofs. :tard:

PS Lohman you can change it from 4-5 posts.

[Miscue]

Who defines "annoying" and "rude"? If you can do that to the satisfaction of most (if not all) then adopt a zero tolerance policy, then it's a step in the right direction.

There are also quite a bit of other things as well. Take heed to Fire1811's opinion about the less mature. Unfortunately the younger crowd is an ever increasing group in paintball. But not all of them are Knuckleheads. There are sharp young dudes like Lurker 27 who frequent this forum. Make it furtile grounds for young guys like him.

Decorum. Maintain it. This is a PG rated forum. The older guys who (and some of the younger guys as well) may appreciate contents of a more mature nature. Personally so do I. But it is neither our individual right or perogative to introduce such items into an privately owned forum who's owner is intent on keeping the environment "family" oriented. Those who cannot see the value of respecting this boundary, well what else can be said.

Keep intense discussions civil. Those who enjoy debating their points cleanly and in a polite manner may not necessarily get the same in return. Lesser minds tend to stray towards hostile retorts because they may not be able to go toe-to-toe on legitemate grounds. Don't escalate. The merits of an arguement should stand on its own and there will be people who will either agree or disagree with your perspective. Neither your nor I will always be right.

Come up with some type of an acknowledgement system to recognize those who contribute productively. Those who enrich AO either through their intellect or their willingness to help others should be held in better esteem within the AO community.

The best of AO to me represents the inteligensia of the the paintball community. We might not all see things eye to eye but at the very least we all tried to enlighten one another in a constructive way.....this is the AO that I remember and the standard that should be maintained.

Lastly, I am saddened in some measure of the loss of certain long-standing members of the community. Whether we saw each other eye to eye or not, there are certain people I will miss for what it is that they've contributed. Good luck to you and my best wishes to you in your future endeavors.

I was begging the question and was waiting for someone to respond! Yes, how do you determine that?

It's tough to do fairly. It's easier to enforce a rule equally, that affects everybody - and is enforced the same way with everybody.

I personally am leaning towards stricter rules. The mature folks will be uneffected. The less mature will be. And, I think this would be fair - and get some results that would be beneficial.

If you notice, AO is cleaner than other forums - and has a better atmosphere. This did not happen by accident - but by enforcing the rules.

[Fred]

Is it really broken, or just a matter of things changing over time?

Its not just broke, its pretty darn near FUBAR. A few squeeky wheels weren't oiled, and the whole machine has exploded.

What made AO good?

It used to be fun, laid back, with a very solid group of "old timers" that contributed and made these forums entertaining enjoyable... recently the fun has been gone.

What still makes it good?

A few old timers are still around.

What has changed?

The old timers left for a variety of reasons, not limited to a rather large influx of kiddies who don't understand the AO culture we had a few years ago.

How do we improve it?

Bring back the old AO culture, it won't happen by coddling newbies and ostrisizing old timers.

---Fred

[thecavemankevin]

Again, and your pretty famous for this, you assume everything played out in public. When in fact things happened off AO and you would be suprised how nasty they were. But I cannot talk about it. But again.... I caution you.. to not assume you have seen it all or know it all from what you see in posts here on AO. You would be mistaken.


ahh, but i never assumed i knew the entire story. In fact i usually only here the banned persons side of things. Therefore, thats all the info i have, plus what i can scrounge if the posts ect haven't been deleted/moved. Thus makeing it seem like you mods are on a power trip. because when i try and find out, you guys come out looking like a jerk...evern if you were justified.

I know as a non mod i am along with the rest of AO not owed an explination for why people were banned and so on. However, if it was explained to the public why there were banned perhaps it would clear things up and hurt less feelings of their "friends/elder members." Plus it would prevent others from makeing the same/similar mistakes seeing as otherwise they might not know better. Thats all i ask anyways. And miscue asked how we could fix things, i don't think this would fix everything, but i think it would deffinatly help.

it seems to me that many of the "rules" are made up as you mods go. Minor case in point, my thread about modding a ps2, broke none of the publicly stated rules/guidlines. Yet it was closed nontheless just because a power-tripping mod felt like it. Perhaps if mods stuck to the RULES it would help too?

[thecavemankevin]

Yeah, that's a problem. There's often a background story that others are not aware of, and then do not understand why we take certain actions. We should not have to explain it everytime.

perhaps not, but it could help people understand all points of view rather than the just banned persons point of view.

[Miscue]

cphilip - how about a separate, exclusive forum. One pristine forum. Let me have ownership of it.

[thecavemankevin]

cphilip - how about a separate, exclusive forum. Let me have ownership of it.

sounds good to me

plus it'd rid phil of the headache i know he must have right now trying to police the e-brats like myself

[FooTemps]

no effort into reading the thread... I just have a couple things to say

(remember when people actually used fake tags to represent something?)

These days AO seems to be more bogged down with more "footemps" like characters than say "nicad" like characters. Back in the day, there were more technically inclined members or more members in tune to the spirit of the game. I remember where there was only one predominant postwhore to pissed everyone off. And that postwhore was ME.

Now instead of only one postwhore who gets the occasional 7 day ban for posting 50 posts a day, there are groups of postwhore that are warring against each other. I see the emagballa/dj68/oysterboy/allthoselittlepricks conflict going on constantly almost all throughout friendly corner. FC has arisen to fight some of the idiots but they've already given up and have jumped ship the thorums.

Since back in the day there was only one postwhore and his little posse of maybe one or two occasional members, the quality of the whole forum was better since it wasn't as cluttered with useless info. Now there are all those kiddies who jump over here to be cool and part of the AO community.

My solution...
Newbs forum: it's there for all the starting out questions and to establish your character on AO. They can say hi or ask something about mags. There ought to be stickies that touch on all the big info for beginners
Articles: AO ought to have more articles on the site. You see, NO ONE ever goes to the main site. Do you know why? there's nothing there! We have tom's tech tips and stuff, but who cares? I see websites like hardocp and bit-tech having a main forum with articles and reviews. The articles go over things such as "how to do this" or "comparing this and that" or "editorial on blah blah blah". Wouldn't it be useful to have occasional columnists for AO to give the AO community something to read and learn from? It could be a valuable resource that avoids a crapload of posts.

See, if we had a bigger pool of starting information, we'd have less starting questions. That means more educated members and a better quality of posts and ultimately less posts. We gotta get serious about this if we want to pick AO out of the hellhole it's in.


The ex-postwhore has spoken...

oh yeah, I forgot to mention this...
I'm probably not going to come back except to lurk now, bye

[Miscue]

My thoughts are: Any member can invite any number of new members - advised to do so carefully. The basis for selection: maturity. Plain and simple. Any who display anything to the contrary in the forum, gets axed. It would be a filtered "Paintball Talk" forum.

[Blazestorm]

AO sucks because of people treating it like PBN...

It soon became "ok" to flame people, instead of helping someone, people will simply flame them. In some threads this is not prominate (in which the old AO appears to shine through), but it is almost everywhere. People post stupid, and pointless threads because they find it funny. Back in the day, every thread had meaning or purpose, every thread had something you could enjoy reading. There was nothing pointless or stupid. Nobody flamed without reason.

And moderators weren't randomly banning people who have been contributing to this forum for years...

And this is coming from a person who first joined the forum when he was 12...

This is stupid, I plan to follow Footemps... I'm not going to post a lot, only where I can help... and that's it...

*Holy Crap I have a lot of posts...

[fcpchop]

Compare it to a new car. Once the "new car smelll" is gone all you can do is go buy a can of the fake scent from the store and reminisce.

a well put anology, and it really saddens me to say that it is true. I dont beleive that it is possible to make AO into what it once was, we can try and probably get close but it will never be the same no matter how hard we try. I remember when i was honostly pround of AO, I honostly beleived that it was by far the best forum out there. It really hurts to know that it will never be the same again, it can never again be the place I go for advice and the place I can open up and not worry about others flaming me or posting useless annoying things. You really just cant explain to the new members what it was like, you really can't. But Miscue is definitly onto something with this new forum idea. Although we can not recreate the "new car small" we can get a new car ;) I think a fresh start can be good. I used to think that the mods were too strict but now i see that they only do it for our own good, they are trying to get AO to what it once was, but like i said before unfortunitly it simply isn't possible. I think we should start a new forum where people know in advance that it will be strict but that doesn't mean that there has to be alot of banning, we just have to be mature, anyone who cant just shouldn't come to the forum. Lets go for it :)

[magman007]

yes q, thank god for suggesting it. Bring back another forum, one much like fightclub, but for members diserving it. upstanding members, and members of join dates before a certain date, say 2k2 since 2k3 is when we really started our decent. there were a few ripples in the pond then, and these ripples have turned into waves, that have eroded what is ao. i for one say q diserves this forum, diserves to give it a chance. only allow say 100 members in at first, then allow them each 2 invites to people they feel worthy. another thing, is never let the rest of ao know about it. allow the people in the forum to see a link to it, and no one else. such as the mod forum. you dont talk about the forum in any open air places, such as pb talk or friendly corner. there fore, other members dont get jealous about what they dont have. understand what im comming from?

also, i say we give those that have contributed to our forums a while to cool down, then invite them back. people like thordic and TSC. you know these people didnt really diserve to be banned. i also suggest having army moderate the forum with you once he returns. he was one of the best mods to date, besides you of course. i truely felt like he was an "internet dad" and you as my internet "brother". im sure others feel this way as well.

[brianlojeck]

if I may, and take this for what it is, my opinion..

The reason the talk isn't about paintball any longer is that there's nothing to talk about in paintball any longer. Very few people hide, move, aim, or tech their own guns any longer. I may very well have one of the most unique mags here, because I have both a drop-forward and a shoulder stock on it (gasp and horror and amazement). Look at all the "my gun is cool" threads... they all look the same.

what else is there to talk about? everything else... politics, religion, and life. Even a talk about Smart Parts new patent battle is sure to turn to a political discussion.

and the background noise? that's the way of the net. Find me a forum without it these days...

[bornl33t]

I think the flaming was ppl defending themselves from being belittled. Over time Ao developed a little posse that did nothing other then condesend to ppls threads. I have deleted MANY thread myself because after 3 posts it was pure crap and I achieved nothing. Usually followed by an addition to my ignor list.


BBQ pit.. it's the ONLY way to fix AO :dance:

[bornl33t]

if I may, and take this for what it is, my opinion..

The reason the talk isn't about paintball any longer is that there's nothing to talk about in paintball any longer. Very few people hide, move, aim, or tech their own guns any longer. I may very well have one of the most unique mags here, because I have both a drop-forward and a shoulder stock on it (gasp and horror and amazement). Look at all the "my gun is cool" threads... they all look the same.

what else is there to talk about? everything else... politics, religion, and life. Even a talk about Smart Parts new patent battle is sure to turn to a political discussion.

and the background noise? that's the way of the net. Find me a forum without it these days...

one word... PHOG! I switched to a phanto a long time ago and in no small part because of that forum!

[FreakBaller12]

unban everybody.

lighten up.

stop complaing about where AO has gone, ti will go back if you stop and if you all just calm down.


remember, this is the internet


kthx ;)

[Mango]

http://cheston.com/pbf/PBF032ADReset.jpg

[SAW]

Thanks Mango. :D

[fcpchop]

mango- well the way i look at it, atleast we can have a good forum for a couple of years, and hopefully we dont end up back where we started but even if it does we can have a couple of years of enjoyment

[FreakBaller12]

honestly mango, I was thinkign the same exact thing, but that maybe the only solution, or the c omplete wrong solution, hard to say.

[Pickle]

I think public complaining about moderator actions (such as a ban, sig. editing, etc) should be grounds for a ban. There are PMs and e-mail for this type of thing, noone else needs to see the whining.

Amen!


If someone causes a problem, banning him will just cause more people to complain. For every popular member that gets banned, a few followers go with him. At that rate, nobody will be left.

Only the problem children will be leaving. It's kind of like removing the annoying kid from class. Yeah, one or two kids may go with him but the rest of the class is glad he's gone.



Who defines "annoying" and "rude"? If you can do that to the satisfaction of most (if not all) then adopt a zero tolerance policy, then it's a step in the right direction.

Decorum. Maintain it. This is a PG rated forum. The older guys who (and some of the younger guys as well) may appreciate contents of a more mature nature. Personally so do I. But it is neither our individual right or perogative to introduce such items into an privately owned forum who's owner is intent on keeping the environment "family" oriented. Those who cannot see the value of respecting this boundary, well what else can be said.

Keep intense discussions civil. Those who enjoy debating their points cleanly and in a polite manner may not necessarily get the same in return. Lesser minds tend to stray towards hostile retorts because they may not be able to go toe-to-toe on legitemate grounds. Don't escalate. The merits of an arguement should stand on its own and there will be people who will either agree or disagree with your perspective. Neither your nor I will always be right.

Come up with some type of an acknowledgement system to recognize those who contribute productively. Those who enrich AO either through their intellect or their willingness to help others should be held in better esteem within the AO community.

The best of AO to me represents the inteligensia of the the paintball community. We might not all see things eye to eye but at the very least we all tried to enlighten one another in a constructive way.....this is the AO that I remember and the standard that should be maintained.

Lastly, I am saddened in some measure of the loss of certain long-standing members of the community. Whether we saw each other eye to eye or not, there are certain people I will miss for what it is that they've contributed. Good luck to you and my best wishes to you in your future endeavors.

Good post


I personally am leaning towards stricter rules. The mature folks will be uneffected. The less mature will be. And, I think this would be fair - and get some results that would be beneficial.

When people register with AO they agree to abide by the rules. This is not a democracy. Increase the penalties, enforce the rules to the letter.


Bring back the old AO culture, it won't happen by coddling newbies and ostrisizing old timers.



I know as a non mod i am along with the rest of AO not owed an explination for why people were banned and so on. However, if it was explained to the public why there were banned perhaps it would clear things up and hurt less feelings of their "friends/elder members."

If you know you are not owed an explanation then don't ask for one. Especially if it does not apply to you.


AO sucks because of people treating it like PBN...

It soon became "ok" to flame people, instead of helping someone, people will simply flame them. In some threads this is not prominate (in which the old AO appears to shine through), but it is almost everywhere. People post stupid, and pointless threads because they find it funny. Back in the day, every thread had meaning or purpose, every thread had something you could enjoy reading. There was nothing pointless or stupid. Nobody flamed without reason.

Yep. Hence, inforce the rules or make new rules to rid this plague. If the posters don't like it they can leave. There is no respect for other people here. AO is becoming PBN's little brother.

[thecavemankevin]

If you know you are not owed an explanation then don't ask for one. Especially if it does not apply to you.


misque asked for my recomendation to help fix the problem...that is my recomendation, take it or leave it

[xmetal2001]

I think one of the main differences is that when I first came to AO, it was a group of Paintball loving mag fanatics. When friendly corner was added, everybody got along because they were here to talk paintball, and friendly off-topic conversations were naturally pleasant with people who share the same passion.

As AO has grown and become more well known, the userbase has shifted to a more off-topic/friendly corner type of crowd. Alot of people have never have/have stopped posting in Paintball Talk. Because of this change in the attitude of the userbase, we inevitably are going to have more disagreements and bad blood between members. And of course the obvious effect: we attract non-paintball loving members who just want to come screw around.

[CoolHand]

It seems to me like everyone has an agenda when they post now. Its like being in a spy movie ----> Bond - "Careful! One false move [dramatic pause] and a flame-fest erupts!"

I used to help people out, and do whatever I could, but now its become such a chore to decide if I want to risk the possible flamage that a mistook suggestion could bring that I really think twice before I post.

In most cases, I just don't say anything, and that's a real shame, not so much because I'm anything special (believe me, I'm not), but because there has to be other people who are smarter and more useful than me who could contribute, but choose not to because of the hightened chance of irritation and conflict over nothing.

I would really like to see a PB forum (doesn't have to be here, but that would be nice) which is invitation only, for just the discussion of ideas (both techincal and philosophical), without the need to be so guarded.

I'm not for supplanting AO, but rather buttressing it with a new outlet for the technically inclined.

That's my take, as always, your mileage may vary.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I have it in my power (I use that term loosely) to at least provide the place for this to happen. -----> Go Here. (http://logicpaintball.com/phpBB2/index.php?c=5&sid=9aa4021b0bf7e74567970d828239dbcd)

There is nothing there yet, because I litterally just put it up. Viewing will be restriced to registered users, and access to post is limited by permissions. If you'd like to be able to post, PM me over there and I'll get the first few core guys set up. The rest would be by invitation.

[RRfireblade]

In a Nut Shell:

The forum was best when the gun was more popular than the forum,now it's the other way around. ;)

[fire1811]

start charging a few dollars to register. then most of the people here will actually want to be here.

[MantisMag]

i cry for AO. it is falling before the onslaught of stupid. since 2003 our members have been getting younger and dumber. i'm sure there's been some good members in there. but it seems most of the really annoying ones are all in that time period. i think footemps had it right when he said it's a matter of numbers. way back when we only had one postwhore at a time. by the time the next postwhore came along the previous one had been acculturated to AO. they had become one of us. now there's so many of them that they think their behavior is acceptable.

the content in friendly corner is suffering. there's so much garbage and nothing to talk about. most threads are of the "hey look at this" variety. some of them are good, like phil's scooters or whatever other projects people like to work on. unfortunately i'm not interested so i take a look when they're first posted and move on. most however are just dumb things around the internet. that's all well and good but that seems to be all there is now. the problem isn't that these threads exist. it's that they're all there is.

people say the mods are stricter. you should have seen them back when i joined. army was the strictest about cussing. i remember miscue editing quite a few posts. back then anything remotely like cussing was edited. repeat offenders got a temp ban. civility was strictly enforced. you could argue all you want but personal attacks were not tolerated. once again edit/warning then banning. for a while i think the mods were a little looser. personally i think they chose the wrong time for it. now they're cracking down and everybody's upset. i don't really agree with all the bannings that have taken place. many of them were deserved but some i don't really see why. then again i may not be aware of some of the circumstances.

so anyway here's the short answers to the questions
Is it really broken, or just a matter of things changing over time?
yeah it's busted. if AO was a person it'd be fat lazy and stupid and just about ready to die of a heart attack.

What made AO good?
we used to be a real community. we were small and basically all knew each other. i barely posted (i thought posting on five threads at once was a lot) and people knew who i was.

What still makes it good?
honestly, not much. the forums are free of pr0n and spam. there's also very little circumvention of the cuss filter.

What has changed?
wave after wave of stupid. mods were lax on some of the more minor infractions for a while.

How do we improve it?
i don't know. fixing AO would be something of an experiiment in social engineering. how do you foster community and intelligent conversation?

[Bad_Dog]

I make it a point to not try to annoy the moderators.. I don't want there job, I don't envy the decisions they have to make, and as such I really beleive that I should, most of the time, not open my mouth.

you said it all brother... people have to understand that AO is whatever we make of it; whether that be good, bad, ugly, polite, or whatever... With the recent onslaught of new members (and I'm not pointing fingers) the attutude has become less "official" to me. Like when people used to post something (like information on a subject) you could count on the fact that what they said was right. Nowadays people seem to post what they think is right, without actually knowing an answer (and that includes old members as well). That to me has turned AO's creditability from an informative forum into a somewhat confusing second guessing expierience.

Other things like the usage of proper punctuation, and the buseness like presentation that once was used when responding with information all adds up to the class act that we so dearly miss.

My advise would be to concentrate on the small details that we love about AO, dont let your typing skills go down the drain even if the majority of members uze thi3r l33t internet ling0... Posting only when you're 100% sure on a subject is key also, if your any less sure about the information you provide than be curteous and admit you're only 80% sure your solution will work, it will make your post 200% more creditable. Remember that your opinion is your opinion and not a fact at any time or place, and when someone asks for your opinion it is not your job to overwhelm them and push them one way or another. Respect each other as you wish to be respected, its a simple version of the game of life... just because you communicate through a keyboard doesnt mean you should act any differently.

bah, what do I need to get into this for... I hate politics :bounce:

[CoolHand]

you said it all brother... people have to understand that AO is whatever we make of it; whether that be good, bad, ugly, polite, or whatever... With the recent onslaught of new members (and I'm not pointing fingers) the attutude has become less "official" to me. Like when people used to post something (like information on a subject) you could count on the fact that what they said was right. Nowadays people seem to post what they think is right, without actually knowing an answer (and that includes old members as well). That to me has turned AO's creditability from an informative forum into a somewhat confusing second guessing expierience.

Other things like the usage of proper punctuation, and the buseness like presentation that once was used when responding with information all adds up to the class act that we so dearly miss.

My advise would be to concentrate on the small details that we love about AO, dont let your typing skills go down the drain even if the majority of members uze thi3r l33t internet ling0... Posting only when you're 100% sure on a subject is key also, if your any less sure about the information you provide than be curteous and admit you're only 80% sure your solution will work, it will make your post 200% more creditable. Remember that your opinion is your opinion and not a fact at any time or place, and when someone asks for your opinion it is not your job to overwhelm them and push them one way or another. Respect each other as you wish to be respected, its a simple version of the game of life... just because you communicate through a keyboard doesnt mean you should act any differently.

bah, what do I need to get into this for... I hate politics :bounce:

That was a good post, and with the exception of the newfound hostility, hits on every one of the things I miss.

[Eric Cartman]

Is it really broken, or just a matter of things changing over time?

Its not just broke, its pretty darn near FUBAR. A few squeeky wheels weren't oiled, and the whole machine has exploded.

What made AO good?

It used to be fun, laid back, with a very solid group of "old timers" that contributed and made these forums entertaining enjoyable... recently the fun has been gone.

What still makes it good?

A few old timers are still around.

What has changed?

The old timers left for a variety of reasons, not limited to a rather large influx of kiddies who don't understand the AO culture we had a few years ago.

How do we improve it?

Bring back the old AO culture, it won't happen by coddling newbies and ostrisizing old timers.

---Fred

Excellent post in my opinion.


Again, and your pretty famous for this, you assume everything played out in public. When in fact things happened off AO and you would be suprised how nasty they were. But I cannot talk about it. But again.... I caution you.. to not assume you have seen it all or know it all from what you see in posts here on AO. You would be mistaken.

I'm not saying that the mods should need to justify everything they do, but I feel it's human nature to draw conclusions from the information that is available. I've seen threads closed and I really had no idea why it happened. Back in the day when there were threads about flaming Sam, I "took the black pill" and I also read Sam's rebuttal and I felt these sources gave me the info I needed to draw my own conclusions about the people involved. That's also another reason I liked lurking around the "AO related drama" forum on the Thorums. If all that is seen is a lot of threads being closed and a lot of bans being handed out, I'm not surprised that people are coming to negative conclusions. I'm not saying these conclusions are necessarily correct, but I understand how they are arrived at.


...Only the problem children will be leaving. It's kind of like removing the annoying kid from class. Yeah, one or two kids may go with him but the rest of the class is glad he's gone...

Well you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I for one think that the class is diminished by the departure of intelligent & entertaining posters like Thordic and LPB.

AO is the very first forum I ever posted on and I've spent more time here than any other place on the web. I hope it can recover, I really do, but I'm not holding my breath.

[PBX Ronin 23]

I would really like to see a PB forum (doesn't have to be here, but that would be nice) which is invitation only, for just the discussion of ideas (both techincal and philosophical), without the need to be so guarded.

I'm not for supplanting AO, but rather buttressing it with a new outlet for the technically inclined.

That's my take, as always, your mileage may vary.

Awsome idea. Count me in....if you think I'm deserving of course.

[CoolHand]

Awsome idea. Count me in....if you think I'm deserving of course.

Um . . Yeah, I'd say you'll pass muster. :rofl:

Anyone who owns a Bridgeport, and knows how to use it is automatically invited.

And really, I don't want to be the guy that has that say, once a few people are there.

I'd rather it be self regulating, like the Tinker's Guild, only a little less public. Ideally, I'd come and back up the database every so often, and maybe partake in discussion when the mood takes me. Very "hands off". The mods and things like that will all work themselves out in the long run, I think (/hope).

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

Here is my synopsis AO has gotten boring, plain and simple.

There is no more Tom Kaye, no more new mag parts coming out, no more chat parties, and that just mainly effects PB talk minus maybe the chat parties.

There has always been immaturity just look at the spree of revolutions, but the thing is it was taken in agood natured spirirt. People were going with it and having a bit of fun. Hell even Tom got involved with the olde das untermag revolution.

People are just becoming too serious, friendly corner used to have a mix of A) Fairly flame free political threads, and other thought provoking threads B) Just plain silly threads full of stupid jokes and C) everything else sports, common interests etc...

But now it seems that there are less and less of A) which can be considered goood in one light, but it seems to be taking away from the intellectual quality of AO. And B) seem to either get out of hand, or be filled with a bunch of "Negative Nellies" C) is still around, but I never found threads like that to be the heart.

So basically people need to just relax, take it all in that this is just the internet. And then turn around and be able to speak their mind on an issue, and just as easily spout off some incoherent babble, which we can all laugh and jeer at.

Why can't we be friends?

[Kevmaster]

Ok. its late, and Im going to ramble for a while. Sorry...but I am :)

I'll repost or edit this later.

Heres what I see as the problem. I stay on AO now, even though I've played TWICE in the last two years (both of those were at AO events), because of the PEOPLE who I know and call my friends. I don't stay here so I can see ****fests erupt in the FC and people start *****in to others about some crap. These arn't just names on the internet...these guys are true friends. if something happened to Phil, i would care. Not because hes some mod dude on AO, but because he's a great guy and he's gone out of his way to help me. Phil is a great, standup, person.

What are the only posts I look at now adays on AO? Meet & Greet posts so I know where I can go to play ball with great people and IAO related posts...so I can hang out with great people. And the reason I pay $250 for airfare, $100 for a hotel, $100 for paint and entry and $50 for food ($500) isn't so I can play ball...shoot..i would go to an AO event and not play ball (done that twice). Hell, I drove down to AOSE for the night before the event just to hang out with the AOers who were there. Great guys. I didn't care one lick about playing paintball...I drove back home to NC before the first game started. Never made it to the field. Why? because i wanted to be with the people who were at AOSE. Guys like Thor. Guys like Phil. Guys like Jason. Gals like Clare and Trina. Fantastic people who happen to play paintball.

And on the thorums stuff...not to beat a dead horse, because i know i am (and i dont know EVERYTHING that went on behind the scenes)... but to kill his like seems a little much to me. between allowing people to say f'in on AO and having the HOT CHICK THREAD, thorums ain't but a hop skip and a jump away from that. Besides, to get into the 'boobie' section, Thor has to give you permission.

On Caveman's point about illegal activities being disallowed...Tell that to some moderators here and AGD staff members who have knowingly given me (only 20 years old) liquor and beer at AO events. I mean...WTF? I'm not unhappy about it, it just seems hypocritical. I don't see them as villians nor do Isee caveman as a bad guy.

What do I want out of AO? I want it to be so that I WANT to go tothe IAO...just to listen to Tom talk and to hang oout with AOers for a day. ONE DAY! AO ain't givin me that now. I think if we can ever get to the point where NEW, YOUNG members want to go hang out with everyone and can be mature about it, we will have one hell of an AO again. I certainly hope that happens. Because, if it doesn't we're gunna have a PBN replica here on AO. And NOBODY wants that.

[Buff]

I think what was different back in the day was that this forum was a group of old-timer automag users who liked fiddling with their mech guns.........

now its got a bunch of 13-16 yo's in it........

what can be expected?

[Ov3rmind]

I see it as a "things change over time" issue. AO will never be like it was before. A lot of posters who have been around for a while wont accept this and will try to challenge it. Then you'll have the newer members answer their challenge with some drama. We're past the point of no return. You'll see this happen with every forum on the web (look at how much PBN changed from it's inception in 2001 to present).

The only thing I have a problem with is sometimes I'll see rules selectively applied to members. I'm not going to say names, but this does annoy me.

[Dubstar112]

I would really like to see a PB forum (doesn't have to be here, but that would be nice) which is invitation only, for just the discussion of ideas (both techincal and philosophical), without the need to be so guarded.

thats the way it used to be


In a Nut Shell:

The forum was best when the gun was more popular than the forum,now it's the other way around.

Theres people who dont know what a mag is on here. Somewhere

I too will only post where I can answer somones question I guess, to its fullest extent.

[Mango]

I wonder how a message board is supposed to survive when a majority of the members are afraid to post for fear of being banned. http://www.sprayingmango.com/ohnoes.gif

[spantol]

There'a another message board that I frequent that is orders of magnitude larger than AO. They get by, and have done so for years, with one simple, overriding rule: Don't be a jerk. Jerkitude is judged at the discretion of the moderators, though users have some input through the "Report this post" function. There's a simple tiered discipline system in place--A public warning, a private warning, a temp ban. Then, a public warning, a private warning, a permenant ban. There's also more or less full disclosure when it comes to bannings--if there's a strong public reaction to a ban, they're as forthcoming as they can be in explaining the rationale, which goes a long way towards minimizing drama.

[PBX Ronin 23]

I agree with you in regards to the need of full disclosure when giving out perm bans. But perhaps there are things also that are better left undisclosed. Being a mod is a thankless job and I'm sure they really don't enjoy doing what they sometimes have to do.

[Albinonewt]

I say screw it, why bother "fixing" AO? Sure we loved it, but all things change and evolve. Sometimes change is good for some and not others. If the older guys don't like the new ignorant child friendly AO then it is time for them to move on. I like posting here, and I generally like the people (if we hadn't hired some smart MIS people I'd still be on for 30+ posts a day). But I can go to other forums and talk to other strangers without my life being ruined. I'd say I have 10 or 12 pretty good friends that i met through AO and I'm not going to through out their phone numbers because we don't all post here anymore.

[fcpchop]

I wonder how a message board is supposed to survive when a majority of the members are afraid to post for fear of being banned. http://www.sprayingmango.com/ohnoes.gif

I think everyone is blowing that WAY out of proportion. I never have to worry about gettin banned when i post, I'm never afraid to speak my mind on a subject just because I will get banned. Thats because I dont complain about the mods and I follow the rules, well most atleast :) People act as if anything thing they post will get them banned and its really not that way at all, just dont do anything stupid and keep it mature.

[jwren00]

I wonder how a message board is supposed to survive when a majority of the members are afraid to post for fear of being banned. http://www.sprayingmango.com/ohnoes.gif



^ Those are the kind of people that don't belong here. However, i really don't think that the "majority" of AOers are afraid to post for fear of being banned. Do you honestly feel the possibility of getting banned with every post that you make? Did you ever stop to think that maybe the problem lies within your posts, and not with the moderators??? You, and everyone else on this forum that shares your problem, don't belong here. Period.

[Kevmaster]

^ Those are the kind of people that don't belong here. However, i really don't think that the "majority" of AOers are afraid to post for fear of being banned. Do you honestly feel the possibility of getting banned with every post that you make? Did you ever stop to think that maybe the problem lies within your posts, and not with the moderators??? You, and everyone else on this forum that shares your problem, don't belong here. Period.

I held back in my post in posting TRUTHFUL information about some people/things because I knew if I did it wouldn't go well at all. Banned? maybe. Deleted? Surely. None of it would have been speculation, all factual that I know happened. There are a lot of us who could expose the truth and decline because of what would happen. Its just not worth it

[sneakyhacker420]

as soon as the pie revolution died, it seemed that overnight, AO grew from a friendly community and accepting of others, to a cruel party of a**holes, not tolerant of anything

people from pie simply got banned for being a part of it, when our bans expired, we asked for an explanation of why it happened - we got banned again for starting a thread looking for answers

and we still havent gotten answers yet, not that we even care anymore

AO needs to just reform like all hell - i heard about the s***storm that happened recently, and i'm not too happy about it

AO has taken a turn for the worst - with personalities of every member, including the what used to be "elite" moderators chiming in on the action

AO has commited genocide against itself, and its not gonna stop - it just needs to flat out die

as soon as TK retired, i knew that AGD was going straight down the crapper, and AO is one large sign of it - being the largest individual company forum on the net - it should be able to stand for itself, but apparently, its fallen faster than most could ever concieve :cry:

[1stdeadeye]

How to fix AO?

Porn thread :wow:

;) :p



Lighten up everybody. It is the internet, not real life. If this is your real life, then that's just sad.

I have become a lurker because I just don't see much worthwhile anymore.

[Yogster]

It's funny you are saying what you are Miscue. I have been to many paintball forums and I would have to say this is one of the best.You can post almost anything and expect a decent reply without flamming.Alot of local forums I visit on a regular bases are not moderated like this one.Even though I haven't been part of the AO community for long but I have been here as a guest for many years and plan on more.

The popularity of paintball has grown a great deal and of course there is going to be more traffic.

Keep up the good work your doing a awesome job. :cheers:

[Muzikman]

Ok, I have not read all three pages but here are my suggestions, thoughts and ideas.


Is it really broken, or just a matter of things changing over time?

Both. Things change over time, you can't help that. People do not like change, so people think that things got worse. Now, yes, AO has changed, AO has grown, and in many ways got worse.

What made AO good?

The feeling of family. Not just on the forums but in person too.

What still makes it good?

The AO events and the people that go to them. If it wasn't for the fact that there are a select group of people that I know would be at events, I doubt I would be on AO or go to the events.

What has changed?

The forums grew. Rules and additudes did not change or grow with it. What use to be run by a select few who were shooting from the hip turned into a group that do not have a good set of rules to guide them.

Also, I think the industry has alot to do with the additudes of the users. AO "was" a user group. Designed for people who owned, shot and liked the line of products that AGD made. We now have a lot of people who use a bunch of different guns and some don't even like AGD. I think this causes a lot of arguements.

Now, with more dealers, you now have more people asking which one is better. You then end up with person A saying dealer B sucks and use dealer C and then that gets into an argument (and some times between dealers).

These are just a few things I see wrong.

How do we improve it?

Rewrite the rules. Start with an entirely clean slate.
Remove file attachments.
Keep the place PG (not PG-13). This means scrap the "Hot Chick Thread"
Revamp the cuss filter add some words, define some words better, and take out some words.
Cut down the number of mods, or, assign different forums for each to moderate. They can not stray from that forum
Revamp the forums. Remove some, rearrange others and add some. They do not flow right, the groups they are in don't make sense, etc...
Find a forum crack that will lock threads older than a certain date. This way really old threads can not be resurrected
For a small yearly fee give each dealer his own forum under the "dealers" forum. The dealer mods this forum and can post anything within the rules in it.

For dealers who do not want to pay this fee, the dealer forum has restrictions, such as one thread for all their products, only new threads would be for specials. This would have to be thought through some more.

And finally (for now), have a zero tolorance policy.

[Miscue]

I'm in agreement, Muzik. Suggestions on who should run what forum? I have my opinions, but looking for outsiders.

I can't make any administrative changes... but I'm hoping that someone who can is paying attention to all this.

[teufelhunden]

Revamp the mod staff. I'm not going to name names as to who I think should stay and go, but I feel that the mod staff needs a good looking at.

I will, however say that when he returns, if he wants, Army should be put at the top of the list.

[bofh]

What still makes it good?

The AO events and the people that go to them. If it wasn't for the fact that there are a select group of people that I know would be at events, I doubt I would be on AO or go to the events.

Cut down the number of mods, or, assign different forums for each to moderate. They can not stray from that forum
For a small yearly fee give each dealer his own forum under the "dealers" forum. The dealer mods this forum and can post anything within the rules in it.

And finally (for now), have a zero tolorance policy.

All good ideas I think.

AO did loss a lot when non-AGD zealots came in. The site moved from a AGD marker site, to a paintball site. Lots of people came aboard, and it stopped being family as much.

And I think, instead of less mods, you need more mods. and Meta-mods, ie mods who watch the mods.

[SAW]

How do we improve it?

Rewrite the rules. Start with an entirely clean slate.
Remove file attachments.
Keep the place PG (not PG-13). This means scrap the "Hot Chick Thread"
Revamp the cuss filter add some words, define some words better, and take out some words.
Cut down the number of mods, or, assign different forums for each to moderate. They can not stray from that forum
Revamp the forums. Remove some, rearrange others and add some. They do not flow right, the groups they are in don't make sense, etc...
Find a forum crack that will lock threads older than a certain date. This way really old threads can not be resurrected
For a small yearly fee give each dealer his own forum under the "dealers" forum. The dealer mods this forum and can post anything within the rules in it.

For dealers who do not want to pay this fee, the dealer forum has restrictions, such as one thread for all their products, only new threads would be for specials. This would have to be thought through some more.

And finally (for now), have a zero tolorance policy.

That's a very clean, concise idea. Muzik gets my (humble) vote.

[matt-o]

i think alot of the problem is that some members see this as a "magowners.org" whereas alot of the newer players see it as a "magorientedPBN.org". but i can at least say for AO that were not at the level of PBN yet, i mean the worst we have here is some people getting pissed at the mods, which is kinda to be expected when they have to ban people, whereas on PBN almost every thread in small talk has the phrase "go drink bleach" in it. there just plain old A-holes over there
im trying to say that its not as good as it used to be, but not bad my my standards
i do think some more cheerful mods would be nice though, some of the current ones are on a little bit of a power trip

[maxama10]

i dont know if this has been previously stated, but the first page in the members list have 0 posts from most of the members. http://www.automags.org/forums/memberlist.php?
i feel members should be encouraged to post, rather than right now i feel like im being discouraged to post.

max

[Kevmaster]

All this makes me wonder...just weeks ago I was willing to do anything to ensure AO's survival and keep AO afloat. If needed, I would have paid a lot of money to help AO.

Now? **** It.

[brianlojeck]

I think TooDamnSweet needs to give back some of that AO spirit. ;-)

[teufelhunden]

All this makes me wonder...just weeks ago I was willing to do anything to ensure AO's survival and keep AO afloat. If needed, I would have paid a lot of money to help AO.

Now? **** It.


Swear filter activation. Banned.

[xXHavokXx]

I think less mods, more clear cut rules, more pics of hot women! See any flaming in the hot chick thread? Nope.


Seriously, more hot chicks. What's wrong with appreciating the desgins of a higherpower or nature and a healthy way to relieve stress after a long day of work. If you're offended by boobs then look around all women have them and some men, it's natural, nothing evil or devisive about it. If you dont like long hair, legs, butts, stomachs or arms then again, seek help. This isn't afghanistan women and men can show off their skin and it be an appreciation of hard work, genetics , and photoshop.

Like the swear filter. Make it like prime time TV, no one cares about *** and ***** anymore. Or damn, if you can say it on ABC, NBC, CBS or Fox (screw UPN) it should be fair game. For those who say: but my 8 year old kids read this forum and I don't want them learning those words. Pull them out of school, my cousins in kindergarten and 1st grade know how to properly use about all of them. Public school is loaded with vocabulary enhanced kids. Plus it's just a word, no one dies, no one's soul will be cast into the lake of fire to burn eternally with the minions of Satan and the Gardner brothers from reading a word.

I came to AO due to the chill attitude and incredibly intelligent people, AGD, manike, pbx ronin, 1DE, army, albinonewt, kev, thordic, ricker, markm , slarty, jeffy cancon, boski, cphil, miscue, coolhand, rouge, and many many others have provided lots of intelligent convos and different insights into things. With alot of them now gone it's kinda lost its flavor.

I think continuing the relaxed non gestapoesque atmosphere is best. I left PBN because in the angel forums if you mention something anti-HK youd get your post deleted and possible banned.

[SpecialBlend2786]

Sad to say it but...

get rid of the friendly corner. it isn't friendly anymore, and 99.99% of the bans have been due to posts over there.

:cry:

[fcpchop]

i think what muzik said is a great idea BUT it should be a totally new forum. AO is AO we shouldn't change it, it would be like gettin rid of the good times we had here. Just start a new forum. Oh and dont scrap the hot chick thread :mad: .... plz

Ps: I like xXHavokXx's idea of the easing up a bit on the curse filter. It should be a forum for mature invited users, so minor cusses really shouldn't be such a problem, just no really bad cusses.

[thecavemankevin]

well, i was banned....then un-banned?? Well i think i will take a break from AO for a while. Good luck to ya all. I hope AO can atleast recover to some extent...perhaps a shadow of it's former self?

I never hated any of you....just disagreed on a regular basis with a couple.

I'm going to lurking till i and everyone else cools off a bit


My final suggestion is have full disclosure for bannings and closing of threads. If a thread is closed, then the mod closing it should say why it was closed in the final post. If someone is banned, then in the thread/post they made, say why they were banned.

Good luck my brothers :rolleyes:

[fire1811]

Im about tired of all the "farewell" threads too.

If you want to leave, JUST LEAVE

you dont pay to be here. THEY pay all the bills, so they get to make the rules.

and sorry to say but 90% of the bans that I have seen both sides of the story deserved it.

were there a few shaddy ban's sure.

remember this is the internet people.

I think most have you have seen the internet argument race picture :tard:

[1stdeadeye]

I came to AO due to the chill attitude and incredibly intelligent people, AGD, manike, pbx ronin, 1DE, army, albinonewt, kev, thordic, ricker, markm , slarty, jeffy cancon, boski, cphil, miscue, coolhand, rouge, and many many others have provided lots of intelligent convos and different insights into things. With alot of them now gone it's kinda lost its flavor.

I think continuing the relaxed non gestapoesque atmosphere is best. I left PBN because in the angel forums if you mention something anti-HK youd get your post deleted and possible banned.

He called me incredibly intelligent! :clap: :headbang: :clap: :headbang: :cheers:

:spit_take

[OysterBoy]

yes q, thank god for suggesting it. Bring back another forum, one much like fightclub, but for members diserving it. upstanding members, and members of join dates before a certain date, say 2k2 since 2k3 is when we really started our decent.

Funniest thing I have read all day.

[-=Squid=-]

Funniest thing I have read all day.
... Because it's true.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I think TooDamnSweet needs to give back some of that AO spirit. ;-)

yes

[Target Practice]

I think a Changing of the Guard is needed as far as the moderating team is concerned. I think some may consider me biased as far as my choices on who needs to stay and who needs to go, but that is anothing thing entirely.

For the sake of brevity, I'll give my list of who needs to stay: Miscue and Army should definately stay, and LoadSM5 and BlackVCG if they still want the position. I only say Miscue and Army, because they are the only mods that have worked with me to resolve problems that I have been involved in.

With the rest of the mods, never once I have I gotten a PM, or even a warning when I was doing something wrong. I have seen a very senior and well known mod call a member a name, which when posted on AO would result in filter activation, and most likely, a ban for flaming. Mind you, this was AO Chat, while the person was in a moderating role, where the forum rules still apply. There is very strong evidence that a Mod on this forum threatened and flamed a member of this forum using very innappropriate language. While this was offsite, it was still very innappropriate, and was a glaring example of conduct unbecoming of a Moderator, if the evidence is true.

So, let a new Team take over. As is often needed in times of change, a purge of the leadership could bring good things for the site. For starters, I think Muzikman and Nerobro should be part of the new Moderating team, if they wanted to.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

maybe we could play some bonding games...

LIKE THE NAME GAME!!!


yesssssss.........

[bofh]

So, let a new Team take over.

Eh. I wouldn't be so quick to start chucking Mods out. Who we have have worked for a good long time.

We don't fully know what went wrong, in the last few days. And until we do, we shouldn't suggest removing any mods from AO.

One of the things that would let us understand what's currently wrong with AO, would be better communication from the mods on their actions.

If we do talk about adding mods, I do second Nerobro and Muzikman.

[Target Practice]

One of the things that would let us understand what's currently wrong with AO, would be better communication from the mods on their actions.

Well, okay then. Make their conversations public. I'm not saying they have to include us in those conversations, mind you. What could possibly be so bad/secret that they have to keep it behind closed doors?

EDIT: Perhaps a publicly viewable list of everyone's ban information, a la The Bad Traders List.

[bofh]

Well, okay then. Make their conversations public. I'm not saying they have to include us in those conversations, mind you. What could possibly be so bad/secret that they have to keep it behind closed doors?

EDIT: Perhaps a publicly viewable list of everyone's ban information, a la The Bad Traders List.

A ban list is an excellent idea. With Ban comments.

Us peons could look at it, and say, "hey, so and so got banned for doing this. I should avoid doing this because it's a touchy subject."

[Target Practice]

A ban list is an excellent idea. With Ban comments.

Us peons could look at it, and say, "hey, so and so got banned for doing this. I should avoid doing this because it's a touchy subject."

Exactly. Of course, this wouldn't really be needed as much if PMs and warnings were a more widely used tool in the mods box of goodies.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

I dont get what the big deal is. The mods shouldnt have to make a ban list and explain there actions. Somebody at the top thought they were good enough people to make judgement calls and thats good enough for me. Ive been on forums where the mods really are "nazis", but I dont see it like that here.

It seems that the only reason everyone is mad is because people are getting banned. If everyone just took it easy for a while and only the idiots got banned(like it used to be). Then nobody would have anything to complain about.

maybe they should just close the site for like 24 hours and let everyone drink a few saturday night beers and feel better tommorrow.

:cheers:

[Target Practice]

Then where is the HARM in them explaining their actions?

[matt-o]

i just got off my ban for asking why squid's thread on who has been banned was closed, it think that this is what mango was talking about earlier in the thread. i also agree that the only reason people are getting pissed is that people are getting banned, mostly for dumb reasons though. so some mod changing is in order to solve that one.
oh yeah that and the sig naziing ;)

maybe they should just make a seperate forum for people to complain and have rants and not even have any mods or swear filters or anything. just to let people get it out of their system, if someone was on a temporary ban they sould be limited to that forum to vent off their anger. theres the freindly corner and the unfreindly corner

[PBX Ronin 23]

This is how you fix AO.......


Newtism - to do nothing in a wake of pandemonium except find a reason to laugh.
To Newt Somebody - to incessantly make fun of somebody like CollegeBoy for no apparent reason except for previously justified reasons for doing so in the past. :tard:
Albinonewtology - the science of applying humor for whatever reason you may have and under whatever circumstance may be at the present time.

Hence, we should all study Albinonewtology so that we can more readily be willing Newtists in a community that seems to be fraying at the edges.

:clap: :dance: :clap: :dance: :clap: :dance: :clap:

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Then where is the HARM in them explaining their actions?

im sure theres no harm in it. The mods usually tell why someone was banned when you corner them and directly ask them. I just think it seems like a lot of work for them to make a big police report type of thing everytime they enforce the rules.


Personally I dont mind when someone else gets banned. Im going to be honest it doesnt bother me to not see someone post for 3 days, or never again. This is an internet forum, not that big of a deal, and it just doesnt bother me so maybe thats why I dont really care who the mods ban because I trust most all the mods to make good judgement calls.

I mean honestly, when you hear so and so got banned, does it have a negative effect your day in any way?

I think the bigger problem isnt the bannings its the overall attitude of AO that I dont like as much as the old AO. And it makes it worse when everyone whines about so and so getting banned and calling the mods nazi's and making threads about leaving. Once that stuff starts it just spreads.....

[Target Practice]

Who, then, are the mods responsible to? TK? Zupe? Themselves? God forbid...us? Perhaps when we figure this out, we can examine if the mods are the problem.

Personally, I think the mods are responsible to those they oversee: us. The way I see it, they are like government officials, who work for the people who are "under" them. If this is the case, they have a responsibility to keep us informed.

Like I said. I don't have problems with mods that let me know what's going on. It's the ones that do things behind our collective back that I am wary of and tend not to trust.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Yea sometimes in the past ive heard mods say "AO is not a democracy, its a dictatorship" or something like that. I dont know if the mods consider themselves acountable to us is what im getting at.

[vf-xx]

Ok, I realize there was a post suggesting that one read an entire thread before posting. I'll admit to not doing this. (I'm tired and want to get my word in before my attention wanders)

Suggestions:

1) Lurk more Talk less. Works pretty well for me. Granted my post count is lower than it should be, but that's because I spent about a year deleting old posts to keep my count to 1040 (and nobody ever noticed.... :( )

2) Learn to think for yourself.

3) Just because you have an opinion, doesn't mean that you have to voice it.

4) This is the INTERNET. Don't take it so seriously. Realistically very few of us know each other. I'll grant that there is a certian crowd that is known to go to events together, and I really did enjoy meeting people at Shatnerball.

4.5) Counterpoint to 4. This is where you'll make first impressions on people you may meet at an event someday. Be good.

Ah well. Nobody ever listens to me anymore anyways.



5) Manditory typing skills required. You don't have to be a perfect speller, just make an honest attempt at spelling and basic grammar. :P

[-=Squid=-]

Uhh... Is Cphill still a mod?

[manike]

Is it really broken, or just a matter of things changing over time?

Its not just broke, its pretty darn near FUBAR. A few squeeky wheels weren't oiled, and the whole machine has exploded.

What made AO good?

It used to be fun, laid back, with a very solid group of "old timers" that contributed and made these forums entertaining enjoyable... recently the fun has been gone.

What still makes it good?

A few old timers are still around.

What has changed?

The old timers left for a variety of reasons, not limited to a rather large influx of kiddies who don't understand the AO culture we had a few years ago.

How do we improve it?

Bring back the old AO culture, it won't happen by coddling newbies and ostrisizing old timers.

---Fred

Good post.

AO was always something very special, but it seems that recently it's become more like one of the things 'it' professes to be better than. I see very few differences between the attitude and posters here as compared to PBN, and many other forums. This place used to be different. But it doesn't seem to be any different to me now.

It's very confrontational and abusive here. The 'nice and friendly' atmosphere that used to make AO so awesome doesn't exist as much, maybe it does still in part, but the excess of abuse and confrontation has smothered it?

People don't go out of their way to be nice, like they used to, now they seem to go out of their way to be nasty. :shooting:

Maybe everyone should think twice before posting.

[Dubstar112]

Why dont we impliment some democracy. Sure somone unknown pays the bills, and since I dont see them here as an admin on a regular basis, it should be up to the majority of active users to name somone they believe has the ideas for the forum that they believe in.

All the current mods should make short and quick note of things they would plan to change if they were to get the ability to be called "leader". If they cant come up with a plan that is different than eachothers, then they werent creative enough.

[fire1811]

Why dont we impliment some democracy. Sure somone unknown pays the bills, and since I dont see them here as an admin on a regular basis, it should be up to the majority of active users to name somone they believe has the ideas for the forum that they believe in.

All the current mods should make short and quick note of things they would plan to change if they were to get the ability to be called "leader". If they cant come up with a plan that is different than eachothers, then they werent creative enough.

it would be a popularity vote which normally isnt the best person for the job

[Dubstar112]

Uh, thats what a vote is isnt it? Who is more popular, and PROPOSES the best plan. The best plan is nothing without somone who has motivation and visa versa.

[fire1811]

I understand that but IMO I think it will be more of a I like this guy no matter his plan.
but thats just my opinion

[Dubstar112]

I see what you are saying, but I think its worth a shot. If it fails then it fails. AO is no stranger to failure. Atleast aslong as i stay here :)

[bofh]

Well, I think somebody thinks the first thing we should do, is remove cphillip from the moderation team. (http://www.automags.org/forums/showgroups.php?)

Curious.

[vf-xx]

Why dont we impliment some democracy. Sure somone unknown pays the bills, and since I dont see them here as an admin on a regular basis, it should be up to the majority of active users to name somone they believe has the ideas for the forum that they believe in.

All the current mods should make short and quick note of things they would plan to change if they were to get the ability to be called "leader". If they cant come up with a plan that is different than eachothers, then they werent creative enough.

I think a democracy here on AO would just further divide the ranks. Just look at real politics today. I really don't want to mess with that here.

[Dubstar112]

I think the problem is there is no ranks.

Every new member comes aboard with the same influence in a situation like this.

I also feel the age limit has somthing to do with this whole issue. Keeping everything PG-13? well have you seen the maturity level of an average 13 year old on here, its not what I call good.

[Benfica4ever]

I havent been here for a while and the reoson pretty much is every time i come here i see completly random posts. back when pyro was a post whore it wasent to bad becuase his posts at least had words and not smily faces. his had a point to it and was funny. Now its just the most retarded thing i have ever seen. And yes it pretty much is from the new people comming being very immature.

[SpecialBlend2786]

Well, I think somebody thinks the first thing we should do, is remove cphillip from the moderation team. (http://www.automags.org/forums/showgroups.php?)

Curious.

what the hell is going on
Where did uncle phil go :(

[CoolHand]

what the hell is going on
Where did uncle phil go :(

Bummer.

Heavy casualty.

:(

[thecavemankevin]

the cphill thing is very curious....makes me wonder if he just resigned after getting tired of all the bs....cant say i'd blame him.

whats the difference between mod and super mod?

[PBX Ronin 23]

Phil Carroll is one of the most decent straight up guys that I have met in paintball. Regardless of your position on this non-sensical BS that's coming down on the AO community, at the very least recognize that a good man decided to walk away from a job that didn't pay him a single cent. It was a labor of love by a man who did it for those he hardly knew.

The lost of some members who were given a venue to voice their opinions pales in comparison to a man who had a tangible hand in keeping AO what it was day in day out.

This is indeed the biggest shame of this whole debacle. A shame that we should all share in.

[OysterBoy]

Phil Carroll is one of the most decent straight up guys that I have met in paintball. Regardless of your position on this non-sensical BS that's coming down on the AO community, at the very least recognize that a good man decided to walk away from a job that didn't pay him a single cent. It was a labor of love by a man who did it for those he hardly knew.

The lost of some members who were given a venue to voice their opinions pales in comparison to a man who had a tangible hand in keeping AO what it was day in day out.

This is indeed the biggest shame of this whole debacle. A shame that we should all share in.

Totally agreed.

[SpecialBlend2786]

Phil Carroll is one of the most decent straight up guys that I have met in paintball. Regardless of your position on this non-sensical BS that's coming down on the AO community, at the very least recognize that a good man decided to walk away from a job that didn't pay him a single cent. It was a labor of love by a man who did it for those he hardly knew.

The lost of some members who were given a venue to voice their opinions pales in comparison to a man who had a tangible hand in keeping AO what it was day in day out.

This is indeed the biggest shame of this whole debacle. A shame that we should all share in.

agreed. I hope he isn't gone.

I would be ashamed if he is. I already am

[CoolHand]

Indeed.

If he decided to go of his own accord, its bad enough, but if he was told to take a hike over something like this, I can say with a fair bit of certainty that this is the death nell of what was once known as AO.

Man, this whole deal is such a bummer, I really used to enjoy coming here, to just talk and help people, as well as get input on design work. Now, I just don't know . . . . .

I mean its not like my best friend just died or anything (this is just an internet forum after all), but it still makes me sad to see what was such a good thing, start to circle the old toilet bowl.

Alas, that these dark days should be ours . . . . . . ( :rofl: a bit overly dramatic, but still a good quote)

Perhaps it could be better said in redneck? Ahem - "Why does crap like this have to happen on my watch!?!"


:ninja:

[SpecialBlend2786]

Indeed.

If he decided to go of his own accord, its bad enough, but if he was told to take a hike over something like this, I can say with a fair bit of certainty that this is the death nell of what was once known as AO.

Man, this whole deal is such a bummer, I really used to enjoy coming here, to just talk and help people, as well as get input on design work. Now, I just don't know . . . . .

I mean its not like my best friend just died or anything (this is just an internet forum after all), but it still makes me sad to see what was such a good thing, start to circle the old toilet bowl.

Alas, that these dark days should be ours . . . . . . ( :rofl: a bit overly dramatic, but still a good quote)

Perhaps it could be better said in redneck? Ahem - "Why does crap like this have to happen on my watch!?!"


:ninja:

my thoughts eggzactly. Our friendly community became anything but friendly.

I still hope that AO can rebuild, but it wont be the same without cphillip

[OysterBoy]

I HAVE AN IDEA!

Mods, unban everyone, and tommorow, lets just forget any of this happened.

Cmon.. :(

[thecavemankevin]

I HAVE AN IDEA!

Mods, unban everyone, and tommorow, lets just forget any of this happened.

Cmon.. :(

for once i agree with you.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I HAVE AN IDEA!

Mods, unban everyone, and tommorow, lets just forget any of this happened.

Cmon.. :(

i agree, however, a member posted this somewhere else and i kinda agree with it too:

"[...]And getting unbanned is kinda like finding out your girlfriend cheated on you. But then says she still wants to see you, so there is always that memory of you getting ---- over. So it never can really be the same. "

[RogueFactoryKid]

i agree, however, a member posted this somewhere else and i kinda agree with it too:

"[...]And getting unbanned is kinda like finding out your girlfriend cheated on you. But then says she still wants to see you, so there is always that memory of you getting ---- over. So it never can really be the same. "

That is the perfect way to put it :cool:

[SpecialBlend2786]

That is the perfect way to put it :cool:
:ninja:

[RobAGD]

I HAVE AN IDEA!

Mods, unban everyone, and tommorow, lets just forget any of this happened.

Cmon.. :(

Not going to happen

-R

[RogueFactoryKid]

Why is my post count steadily Dropping?

[Target Practice]

If a thread is deleted, then your posts in that thread are ALSO deleted.

[lather]

Whats happened to AO is a simply a reflection of paintball's evolution. A microcosm of paintball society so to speak.

What was once a game and hobby of enthusiasts sharing a common bond, has now become more mainstream, younger, ruder and arrogant.

[TMAXXKING1]

Phil Carroll is one of the most decent straight up guys that I have met in paintball. Regardless of your position on this non-sensical BS that's coming down on the AO community, at the very least recognize that a good man decided to walk away from a job that didn't pay him a single cent. It was a labor of love by a man who did it for those he hardly knew.

The lost of some members who were given a venue to voice their opinions pales in comparison to a man who had a tangible hand in keeping AO what it was day in day out.

This is indeed the biggest shame of this whole debacle. A shame that we should all share in.


you said it all................

if we dont see some pic's of the scoot's on here soon we will have to put this pic on the side of every case of paint.. sold in america...

have you seen this man we need him back on ao

[bofh]

im sure theres no harm in it. The mods usually tell why someone was banned when you corner them and directly ask them. I just think it seems like a lot of work for them to make a big police report type of thing everytime they enforce the rules.

All it really might be is a paragraph, or maybe a few lines, and maybe a link to the offend action.

This would save them the trouble of having to answer any pm's on the subject, or repeat themselves in the chat or online.

[AssassN]

What made AO good?

Everyone knew everyone else. It was like one big family. No one hardly ever fought. I don't want to point fingers esspecially(sp?) because I haven't been around for awhile and don't really know whats going on but it seems like it started going down hill about the time that whole Collegeboy thing was going on.


What still makes it good?

I dunno I haven't been around.


What has changed?

New people. Topics in the friendly corner arn't nearly as much fun. No one seems as fun loving as they used to be.


How do we improve it?

Free pie for everyone?

I don't think its something that the mods can fix, it's something the community has to do.

[fcpchop]

Its really a sad day when we, as a community, drive one of the most active and respected mods to leaving. What does this say about us? This should really be a lesson to alot of the newer people who complain about mods and dont realize that they (the members) are the problem not the mods.

[Smoken]

How do we fix AO?
AO cannot be "fixed," because it is not a website or forum that can be moderated. The true AO, in my mind at least, is a special group I belonged to for a time over a year ago. I hope that group has not disappeared completely.
Automags.org was only a medium for this group to express ideas and share in a common interest. One can only talk paintball so long with his family and friends before they think he is nuts and a nerd. On AO, the discussion could be continued indeffinately because we were all interested in mags and paintball in general-- its history, the technology, its future. This group of people may not have been anyone's dearest friends in the world, but it was a group of genuinely good people who would give an whole lot to make sure someone had a great day on the field or in the forums.
These were people who would vibrantly discuss the ins and outs of how mags worked. Although TK is a genius, I am sure that the intelligence in some of these discussions spawned new products for AGD-- not slight among these, Level 10. Not to say that TK didn't design it, but I am almost certain from the posts back then that he got important insight and new ideas form us. This was awesome to be on the pioneering edge of products for our beloved markers. Without TK, I'm not certain that this aspect of the forum can possibly continue. TK believed in AO, I am sure of this. He loved it, and it showed. He spoke to me and a few others for over 12 hours at one of the very few Southern California AO events. I felt I had a friend in him and other AO members, though I rarely if ever saw them in person. That's just the way it was back then, people respected each other.

I just recently returned to the world of paintball after a long hiatus. I was deeply saddened to find that Tom had retired and to find AO in a state that does seem frightening. Get rid of the BAN LIST. I was literally scared to continue even browsing the sight after seeing that. Such things would not have been dreamt of in the old AO. Some members do not deserve to be here, that is shown by their posts. To those that exemplify the attitude of honor and respect in the old AO, post often and do not ever stoop to the level of those scum who would destroy the ideal of AO with idiocy and hate. I hope that as I return to paintball AO can still be a place where good information and conversation can be found. I hope to see some of you on the field.

P.S. Are DirtyBunny and Roguefactor still around (I can't remember the handles of some of the others I've met, speak up if you're still here)?

[SpecialBlend2786]

P.S. Are DirtyBunny and Roguefactor still around (I can't remember the handles of some of the others I've met, speak up if you're still here)?

DB doesn't post that much anymore, I think he's taking a break from paintball.

Rogue is still alive and kicking, has a couple of new products out as well.

[Target Practice]

Get rid of the BAN LIST.


NO. That list is one of the best things that has happened to AO.

[SpecialBlend2786]

NO. That list is one of the best things that has happened to AO.


agreed. It's nice to see the mods reasoning for doing what they do, as opposed to just being in the dark.

[warpig13]

This Necropost has a purpose guys.


AO has been in this situation before.
We have had the problem of "opressive mods".


I Necro posted this thread for you guys to go back and read this thread.
Figure out for yourselves what needs to be done.

[behemoth]

Is it really broken, or just a matter of things changing over time?

Its not just broke, its pretty darn near FUBAR. A few squeeky wheels weren't oiled, and the whole machine has exploded.

What made AO good?

It used to be fun, laid back, with a very solid group of "old timers" that contributed and made these forums entertaining enjoyable... recently the fun has been gone.

What still makes it good?

A few old timers are still around.

What has changed?

The old timers left for a variety of reasons, not limited to a rather large influx of kiddies who don't understand the AO culture we had a few years ago.

How do we improve it?

Bring back the old AO culture, it won't happen by coddling newbies and ostrisizing old timers.

---Fred

qft.

Sad to say, but most of them oldtimers are gone.

[thecavemankevin]

i've been gone for a few months...what did i miss?

[p8ntbal4me]

Yeah, that's a problem. There's often a background story that others are not aware of, and then do not understand why we take certain actions. We should not have to explain it everytime.


I think this is one of the areas where forums (not just the AO) fail with their moderators.

The forum is a PUBLIC place with PUBLIC knowlege. To add personal or "behind the scenes" reasons where people/members can not fully see whats going on except for the few and the moderated, this leads to members of one group baning against others because sides must be chosen based on lack of public information.

There should be no reason for statments like: "you dont know the whole story".

If this is the case, then the information/post should have never been posted and simply deleted with a logical and complete explenation of the action taken by a moderator. Not simply: "He knows what he did".

I beleve in "cphil"s answer where the older guys have been and gone and the younger guys have come on in. In the same breath, the game is not the same and the older guys are now the once younger guys. The forum needs to change for the times, which, IMHO it has not.

Like wise the moderators need to change as well. I feel that some have done their "job" while some have not. Its not a base or line of how you judge success or failure but simply "its time for someone else to step up to the plate". And all this changes with time. I know from personal experience that I am more active in working on my personal projects and posting here on the AO between November-March because Im a seasonal worker. So I can be on here to troll for spam and porn and report it the second I see it. Maybe selecting moderators that have non-overlaping time to spend on the AO might be something to look into.

~ P8nt

[Lohman446]

There should be no reason for statments like: "you dont know the whole story".

If this is the case, then the information/post should have never been posted and simply deleted with a logical and complete explenation of the action taken by a moderator. Not simply: "He knows what he did".

Personally I think members expect explanations where none is due them.

[teufelhunden]

Personally I think members expect explanations where none is due them.


It's a bit of a catch 22. I don't think there needs to be complete transparency but on the other hand when not everything is available people come to conclusions on imperfect information, which what leads both to the 05 situation as well as this one.

I guess then that a step which could be taken would be to explain a general overview of what has led to action but not go into any serious depth, which as I understand was the purpose of the ban list. Maybe this needs to be revisited on a case by case basis?


Retrospectively, both situations have also occurred when AO members were involved in a group outside of AO; in the prior case, it would be the Thorums and AO IRC; presently, it's PBL. Those outside venues allow the banned to voice one side of a story to gain sympathy and make the mods look like the bad guys. Un/fortunately for us, the mods here tend to elevate themselves out of the muck and avoid saying anything, which makes the information available only what comes from the "victim." I'm not advocating people to not associate outside of AO, of course, but it leads to cliques and such, upon which the lines have been drawn with regard to these events.

[p8ntbal4me]

Personally I think members expect explanations where none is due them.


I agree with half of that, and Im assuming your meaning.

The part I dont agree with is the actions taken by a mod to ban someone, then not tell why.

They should be required to say why the action taken was made per what rule. If the mod does not give a valid reason for their punishment, the mod should be removed.

Checks and balance is what Im getting at.

Mods have the luxury of NOT being banned for opinion. If they feel someone did something wrong, they act upon it. Problem is, sometimes the rules are not followed by the users as well as the mods. And I think some of the problem steams from that point.

Im not perfect. I would not make a good mod for a site like this. I barely make a good member IMHO. I do see the problem as most of us do.

All I want is for the solution to be found.

~ P8nt

[Dend78]

here is what i see as the problem here, i have deleted several lengthy posts due to the fact that i dont want to take the heat from everyone else cause thats not what im here for, i dont want to go back and forth tounge lashing someone, and trying to pick what a person says apart. it seems as though everyone is trolling around looking for a good reason to start a fight. for instance with all of the patent issues with SP, PTP, BE and anyone else you can think of, feel free to post your opinion about it, the next person in line dont step up and say what so and so above me said is all wrong because of this this this. state how you feel about it so it may not be the same as the person above you said its your opinoin be in professional or not. as far as mods go ive been here for a good piece and i have yet to even have a mod PM me. im not the most active person on the board but there is no need to be, because a lot of what i see is someone cutting someone else. about the friendliest place on the board is the classifieds, which for good reason no one is complaining about someone else. so the mods can be a lil opressive from time to time without a check, thats the way it works. they were appointed the mod position for a reason let em do their thing cause regardless it doesnt matter who it is someone is gonna have an issue with what they do. obviously those who totally abuse their power should be dealt with accordingly and removed of their position. again this is just how i see this stuff, im not pointing at anyone person i think we all need to work on this stuff along with other things but i think we get this stuff straight life will be a lot better here for us all

:cheers:

[Big'n slo]

hey
wazzup Q

[PyRo]

I agree AO did go through a rough time with poor moderation. I don't agree that's what killed it though, that's what finished it off. I can't think of the name off the top of my head but a certain British moderator saw to that.
The "old timers" basically got older. We have jobs, bills, families, stopped playing paintball, etc. We stopped coming to the forums and posting as frequently and the atmosphere of AO being as close to a group of friends as you could get over an internet forum kind of died out as a result. I hate to say it but the old AO is gone for good.

Their are always the thorums.

[kosmo]

Bioloaf-man is right. All the cool peoples left long ago. The rest of you should die in a fire.

[Target Practice]

hay guys wats goin on in dis here thread

[PyRo]

hay guys wats goin on in dis here thread
Restarting pie so I can kill it again :)

[wes]

hay guys wats goin on in dis here thread


hi2u2 :) :) :)

[CrazyLad_v2]

I'm here. It's fixed.

[Fred]

How to fix AO:

Build a time machine.

Go back in time to around about 2002.

Repeat.

[Lohman446]

Retrospectively, both situations have also occurred when AO members were involved in a group outside of AO; in the prior case, it would be the Thorums and AO IRC; presently, it's PBL. Those outside venues allow the banned to voice one side of a story to gain sympathy and make the mods look like the bad guys. Un/fortunately for us, the mods here tend to elevate themselves out of the muck and avoid saying anything, which makes the information available only what comes from the "victim." I'm not advocating people to not associate outside of AO, of course, but it leads to cliques and such, upon which the lines have been drawn with regard to these events.

I agree this one, and in both cases. A minor problem (a few day ban is a very minor problem) is elevated by cries of justice and fairness. Both these situations should have been left alone on AO. Have your sympathy party on the other site, let things quiet down on AO, and come back after your ban if you want to. If you must discuss issues with a moderator(s) do it privately so as not to make it into a competition. Phrase requests carefully, and as requests, and do so privately. Face it, people (not just moderators) do not like to lose face, and if you make it a public situation (on a private board, where there are no "appeals") it is highly unlikely you will win.

For instance - if person A says this did not happen and person B says it did whoever we believe will greatly likely make our opinion of the outcome very different.

[MagMan5446]

I think people have ran out of things to talk about besides things that later amount to arguments of "justice and fairness". Or something. I'm not sure, things change I think and I think it's not worth trying to save something that won't be saved. All that anybody can do is talk about trying to save it because thats all there is to do with forums I think. Just talk and when people who made the place different are replaced by others, you have a different community. I no longer post here and I've never really started posting anywhere else either.

I'm also not the same person I was when I started. So theres my two cents.

[dre1919]

I used to spend a TON of time on AO, and it used to be my one stop shop for forums (as well as my first real foray into the forums world way back in 2002). However, over time I stopped coming by here (and there's several reasons why).

1. Sigs were taken away, which I understand was a move made to increase the speed of those using dial-up (at the time) as well as cracking down on people who used them as a means to post ignorant things or waste space (i.e. bandwidth). But, to artists like myself, I saw it as a limit of freedom and expression and a shift to a more "controlled" environment. Sure, AO always had good moderation to swoop in and fix things, but this to me was a move that changed a lot about what it was to be an individual on these forums. When you're here, talking in cyberspace, you really only have two things...your opinions, intellect and personality and how they translate through type and what you choose to display in your sig area. It says a lot about you, and I just moved on to other forums where I could make art for myself and others and not get it taken away. May seem trivial to most, not to me.

2. AGD, and paintball really, have taken a major amount of steps back IMHO. First, AGD began to scale down and change ownership, then become more like an underground company than what it used to be. This severely affected AO I think, as few people were shooting Mags and organizing (or showing up) for AO Meets. I went to an AO MO meet and there were like five people there. Plus, I really feel paintball has almost "jumped the shark" in that it's highest popularity, and best level playing field, was in the late 90's, early 00's. Today, there are too many cheap knock off guns (few make guns with AGD's quality...they want you to trade your gun in every year for the new model, not shoot the same gun for ten years!) Plus, the whole SP lawsuit really ruined paintball as a whole. So many companies folded, and it forever changed the landscape of the sport. These things led a lot of the older folks away from paintball, and ultimately away from AO, because they just weren't thinking or playing paintball all the time like they used to.

Hell, I used to think paintball 24/7 and play it as often as I could. Now? I go a few times a year. I can't afford it as much as when I was a college student, and the landscape of paintball has become so barren that there doesn't seem to be that much to talk about these days. Then you throw in the mods being more strict about what can and can't be talked about here as off topic, and this place is just done.

What do we do to fix it? Well, for one, lighten up on the moderation and let people get their sigs back. Two, I would suggest a layout makeover. What's this place looked the same for...six years? Third, try increasing the feeling of a "family" or "exclusive club" by really promoting it as such. I'm trying to put together a clothing line with a basis in paintball and other things like tattoo and motorcycle attitude. Why not do the same with AO? Give it a line of merchandise or shirts (I fully volunteer to put some designs in and make and sell the stuff) so people build an esprit de corps. This place used to feel like you belonged to something...now, it's just some forum board.

Maybe even create a "dedicated users" group that pays a small fee and with that they get a nice t-shirt, some stickers, and some other things that give them perks. I mean, anything that makes them feel like they are logging into an online club or cyber family of like minded people. That's what AO used to be. I have never seen another forum that organized meets and get togethers in the real world like AO used to be good at. This feeling should be cultivated and broadened.

I would love to help bring AO back, and would totally volunteer my time to help make that happen.

-dre

[Miscue]

Hey ya'll... I'll chime in here.

I believe that the loss of the irc.automags.org chatroom is one of the controllable things that hurt activity on AO. The chatroom was the great social piece of AO.

The forum helped us trade information and learn about the products - and made us all smarter about paintball. But the chatroom is what helped us learn about each other.

Friendship is what made AO great. Friendship was the glue that kept us all coming back - even if there was nothing new to talk about. That is the only reason why I check in from time to time. Paintball doesn't bring me back to AO.

[Miscue]

I reread what I originally wrote in this thread... a few years ago. Someone should have smacked me for dumbness.

[manike]

I reread what I originally wrote in this thread... a few years ago. Someone should have smacked me for dumbness.

Sure thing, next time I'm in Vegas. :)

How you doing? :cheers:

[Z-man]

Indeed how are you Miscue? I greatly enjoyed playing with you back in 2004 and hope that job that you had (then recently) acquired is what you wanted.

[FreakBaller12]

Indeed how are you Miscue? I greatly enjoyed playing with you back in 2004 and hope that job that you had (then recently) acquired is what you wanted.
wow...zman..miscue....speaking of old school

[BigEvil]

wow...zman..miscue....speaking of old school


Well, in case you haven't noticed, Z-man has been around plenty - just not around AO ;)

[Miscue]

Indeed how are you Miscue? I greatly enjoyed playing with you back in 2004 and hope that job that you had (then recently) acquired is what you wanted.

Yeah, it was a lot of fun. That was almost the last time I played too... paintball has been completely out of my mind. Hope you've been well.

I changed jobs 4 times since then actually... promotions and stuff... have been doing well and I'm comfortable where I'm at. But not too comfortable.

[Miscue]

Sure thing, next time I'm in Vegas. :)

How you doing? :cheers:

Pretty good Simon... I haven't been paying attention to your current projects... anything interesting?

[1stdeadeye]

Sure thing, next time I'm in Vegas. :)

How you doing? :cheers:

You moved from Cherry Hill to Sewell? I am in the next town over..Pitman.

[manike]

We are close then. I'm just off Tyler's Mill Road. :) Snowy Owl development. :)

[Big'n slo]

Whoa!11!!

Yous two are too close to Ewan

Back off!!





:D

[CoFFeY[NiTrO]]

im never on here much, but i know how you feel miscue...its just not how it used to feel anymore

[behemoth]

Coffey?!

Damn its been a while.

[gibby]

Hehe...how's it going Brian?! Gee, it's been a while since I logged on as well. Thought I'd just drop on by and see what I'm missing out in the pb world. Not sure what fixes can be made seeing how big this forum is nowadays. It's just the nature of the beast when things get so big and so popular that fast.

[behemoth]

Gibby, you still got that gorgeous karta-emag?

[pmstc]

Josh, you still got that Archos Jukebox?

[behemoth]

No, that went to VF-XX

[pmstc]

No, that went to VF-XX
oh are you serious? didnt he rip off a bunch of people? my memory is kind of bad. either he ripped off a bunch of people or i've met him. but for some reason i remember him being really fat

or maybe my memory just combined like 5 different old ao'ers in to one.

either way, you suck josh.

[kosmo]

What the heck happened to Brians forum?

[BobTheCow]

What the heck happened to Brians forum?
Yeah, it's been a couple weeks now. No good. :(

[behemoth]

Jdev's server took a dump. Thats why Brians, DC, AKAOG, as well as a few others have gone down too.

Anyhow, PMSTC - As far as i know VF was a good dude, we did business a few times. He's from TX tho (if memory serves), idk how you'd have met him...

[pmstc]

Jdev's server took a dump. Thats why Brians, DC, AKAOG, as well as a few others have gone down too.

Anyhow, PMSTC - As far as i know VF was a good dude, we did business a few times. He's from TX tho (if memory serves), idk how you'd have met him...
lol then I definitely am way off
I remember the fat guy now, it was lord_vader and I played with him once like 5 years ago. and he didn't rip anyone off. that was someone else. Srry VF I <3 u

[gibby]

Gibby, you still got that gorgeous karta-emag?
Hey there behemoth...unfortunately, I don't. I actually traded that thing for a DC Viking about a year or so ago. Where I live now, you pay for air by the 1000psi. As you can see, it got expensive playing with it.

I've actually seen pics of my Karta mag floating around as it's changed hands several times. I think last I saw, it was being parted out. Sad to see but I made my choice. Definitely one of the harder decisions I had to make but I'm still happy with my Viking! :) It's the next best thing to a mag, imo.

[CoFFeY[NiTrO]]

i keep seeing myself in the banner up top, and it makes me miss my xmag haha

[MagDog68]

I've been on here a long time - and I think AO was one of the best forums out there. I can't put my finger on it, but it does not feel the same. It doesn't feel like a community as much any more, and I don't really know why. I'd like for AO to continue to be something special on the Internet.

There's been a lot of complaining, with little constructiveness.
Rule for this thread: Be constructive. No complaining without proposed solutions.

I'm going to go out on a limb here... but stupidity = ban of undisclosed amount of time in this thread. :p And... pruning will be very liberal.

Is it really broken, or just a matter of things changing over time?

What made AO good?

What still makes it good?

What has changed?

How do we improve it?

Ahhh....here is the simplest answer as to why it doesn't feel the same. I will give you simple anaolgy. AO is like the band you loved and only you and a few of your friends knew about. You would go see them at the local club with about a hundred other people in the audience and you felt as though you were part of something. Then one day you go to the mall to pick up a new pair of sneakers and you see a group of 15 year old girls wearing your band's T-Shirts, and it doesn't feel the same.

This place used to be so small that I knew the name of the guy who only posted once a week. Now I'm lucky if anyone knows who the hell I am and I've been here longer than 90% of the members. Its the way things go as they grow up, just like paintball did for Tom. It got too big, too corporate, too different from the thing we loved when we started it.

PS My A button sticks a lot, so forgive any typos.