Chicken or the Egg - Manufacturers or Players.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Discussion Topic: Who is the mother of Innovation in Paintball. Is it the Manufacturers who produce the products we hunger for? Or is it the Players, whose relentless search for a competitve edge, leads us to innovate.

[Chronobreak]

with the exception of a few companies/people arent most industry heads ex or current/former abllers and or players of the sport?


so technicaly players....manufacturing is how things get done ;)

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Players create demand for new products, and manifacturers try to match their demands. But sometimes the manufacturers create the demand through advertising/hype.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Originally, it was all the players. Back in the days of 12gr's and stick feeders, it was players who worked out ways to use bigger air tanks, and bulk feeders (made from oil-cans!). Budd Orr was a player who decided he could make a better marker in his garage, and thus was born WGP. Today I think it is almost all done by the industry, who havwe hired players like manike to run their R&D.

[peewee]

Players in the past, they made stuff that they found that they needed thru experience.

[Lurker27]

I have a friend...Yalie actually, who is convinced that biological mirrors economics. Naturally I contend it's the other way around.but none of that is the point.

Manufacturers innovate, but the direction is controlled by dollars. It's evolutionary in the sense that manufacturers have created many a product that have become outdated, or have failed overall.

I would cite as an example, the q-loader. To my knowledge, quite the unique concept, but simply not effective enough to make an impact on the market place.

The manufacturers put out alot of ideas...what survives is patently up to the players. It's that simple.

[PBX Ronin 23]

The manufacturers put out alot of ideas...what survives is patently up to the players. It's that simple.So what you're postulating then is that the source of innovation is inconsequential. What's more critical is how products are received by the market. Regardless of how innovative a product can be it's up to the players to make it a success or not. Interesting take.

[magman007]

i have to agree. take the epic for an example, almost garaunteed to stop chops, or the alien, same deal. what about xmags with level 10 and ace? impossible to chop, but did they sell very well? no. samw with the epic. it is up to the players to decide if the product will survive.


look at timmies. they didnt really sell till the gz came out, then the 02 etc etc. now they are hott

[B.A.M.]

players started the inovation but now companies are the invator with all the high tech stuff.

[luke]

So what you're postulating then is that the source of innovation is inconsequential. What's more critical is how products are received by the market. Regardless of how innovative a product can be it's up to the players to make it a success or not. Interesting take.

I think TK would second this! (sounds like a TK qoute :p )

To answer your question "Who is the mother of Innovation in Paintball" not sure who the mother is, but TK was the father. :D

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Discussion Topic: Who is the mother of Innovation in Paintball. Is it the Manufacturers who produce the products we hunger for? Or is it the Players, whose relentless search for a competitve edge, leads us to innovate.


I think we all have a good idea of the answer to this, though maybe we don't recognize it. Who here knows even one player who has modified his own equipment for a competitive advantage? Personally modified, with something truly unique and custom-made, not purchased from a paintball company.

[abunkerer]

Hmmm, I think that it is the insaine, err, I mean genius R&D people (and not players) who mastermind some of the greatest paintball inventions such as the "firestorm Crank" and the poison arrow barrel system...or those full body protective paintball suits, that look like snowsuits. All very groundbreaking inventions...Im going with "the egg" here. :D

[PBX Ronin 23]

From what most of you are saying, a superior product design isn't as important as market perception.

Perfect example would be E-mag vis-a-vis Angel Speed. Speed sold more because of sex appeal regardless of whether or not the E-Mag is a more innovative design.

Is this the way it should be?

[teufelhunden]

Mel, innovation doesn't mean jack. It's about performance. I don't care how many man hours you put into your design, how different it is, or how unique I'll be if I have one. I care that my gun will shoot a lot of paint straight, fast, and with good efficiency.

You could come to me with some new car that has 50,000 man hours of engineering into it.. and if it doesn't work better than my 100+-year-old-design internal combustion engine, I don't care.

[manike]

I think we all have a good idea of the answer to this, though maybe we don't recognize it. Who here knows even one player who has modified his own equipment for a competitive advantage? Personally modified, with something truly unique and custom-made, not purchased from a paintball company.

I'm not sure that's a good way to look at it.

If I look at it from my work eyes, I can see that almost all of our new technology developments come from players who had an idea on how to make something better. There are some truely innovative things that came from elsewhere though and not directly from players.

But as pointed out, market perception is PHENOMENALLY important.

And however great something is, if the paying customer won't buy it or doesn't want it then it's not going to be a success. To get that to happen can be a factor of many issues.

[Army]

I agree with Mel on this. Marketing is 55% of influence on sales and products. Another 40% relies on player/buyer ignorance. The last 5% is all about players/buyers that actually use their own judgement in selecting product.

I am proudly a 5%'er :headbang:

To use Mel's analogy: The Speed is a fine marker, but only WGP HYPE says it's the fastest marker. Anybody seen any proof of this? Didn't think so, since WGP relies on marketing and ignorance to sell their guns. We all know that a MECHANICAL Automag easily surpassed all claims that the Angel has made (Angel says 30bps....we've gone 34bps, with video and sound graphs to prove it). So who is really faster? Go ask Joe Schmedly who only reads APG for all his paintball news and info, he'll tell you the Angel is because AGD is outdated and chops. Yep, AGD didn't change their E/X Mag electronics in all this time, because we remained the true fastest with our "old" technology, no need to bring out the latest greatest new model of whatever because we added new milling for better......something....that looks better or faster in the magazine ads.

AGD could indeed be the gun to have today, if we had blanketed the tourney fields with sponsored teams that only used AGD products. That's all the #1 companies have done. They really haven't made anything new (the DM4/5 is still only a Matrix in a new package, prove me wrong), just marketed to the ignorance of 40% of players/buyers. Others simply add something new to the board, and call it innovative and a must have. A 20% share in this business is a LOT of sales, so hype is the centerpiece of their strategy. I mean really, what is the honest difference in an Angel Fly, and a Speed, other than hype and small changes to their programs?

Phooey. I'll remain a loyal fan of quality and honesty.

[Lurker27]

Angels can cycle 38 cps. To say your Mag is faster is jsut ignorance. Not only was that setup not field legal, but it requires a scuba tank as well. Just stop.

[GT]

Angels can cycle 38 cps. To say your Mag is faster is jsut ignorance. Not only was that setup not field legal, but it requires a scuba tank as well. Just stop.

and so is your comment. any gun that shoots over 20bps isnt legal. Lets not go down the, "my boyz shootx ROXOROR on teh red chrono."

I think the market is bling driven. doesnt matter how good it works rather how good it looks.

[phantomhitman]

this is a vegas style business i think. some of the biggest gamblers have the best luck, whle others bomb out.
dye, for example, put out the most expensive pair of pants in the world. did people buy them, yes!! In my opinion, they are by far the best pair of pants out. Some people say overpriced, some say people are stupid for paying that much. I can justify my $150 pants because I went through 2 pairs of "quality", cheaper pairs of pants last year. The c5s are more comfy, have more features, and have good padding. Hell, I ewill even admit that I like the styling of them also. The high end timmys, dm4-5s, even the xmags were a risk. But people bought into them for either performance, looks, or company loyalty. Few products are a direct result of what people want, basically I am saying it is almost 50-50 like stated before in another post. The company that has the balls to go big sometimes luck out. Advertising really does help, wether its a $150 loader or a $1500 gun, some people are influenced by what others use. Some companies fail also: q-loaders have so much potential but the limited amount of balls and cost of replacement parts killed them. That is the only failure/letdown product that I can think of right now.
about the bps-cps race. there are guns out that can def cycle faster, and shoot paint faster than mags. I do not know about the dropoff of them though. There are videos of the new speed, ramping timmys and dm4s, and cockers shooting fater than 25 bps. There are a select few people in the entire world that can legally pull near 20 bps, but that does not matter because the emag-rts that are shooting fast are in no way legal either. If the e-x mags had a different trigger system or safer/fater software it would get more recognition. But just because a gun can ramp/cheat does not mean all of them do. A lot of people do get the ramping chips to play aorund with, and some even use during tournies which is stupid. That is a completely different topic though

[AGD]

Talking recent times (last 5 years or so) paintball has been a lifestyle not a search for technology. Since most of the products work good enough that its hard to tell the difference then its up to how the product makes you feel. This is where marketing and associate things like sponsoring the right teams/players feeds the need side of the equation.

For technological innovation to break out of the marketing haze there has to be a truely new concept BUT that concept must also be accepted as a new direction by the players. Right now in my opinion most of the corners have been explored. If you want something really new then you would have to accept something like different caliber paint.

Its going to take a bit before everyone is really bored with whats out there now and forces a new change.

AGD

[PBX Ronin 23]

The industry has definitely taken a turn towards lifestyles than technical innovation. That's what WDP and the NPPL is all about. They set the tone and the rest seems to follow.

But as far as technical innovation is concerned, there really hasn't been anything earth shattering in a while. Even the last tech breakthrough, the X-Mag, wasn't as well received as it should have been.

[teufelhunden]

The X-Mag wasn't a technical innovation. It did what had been done for years, just for the first time on a 'Mag. It had eyes... big whop. Old news. Aluminum body... big whop. Old news. It was still an old RT 'Mag at its heart.

[NewMagMan21]

paintball (ball) or the marker...? Think about that ;) :p

[Jeffy-CanCon]

I'm not sure that's a good way to look at it.

If I look at it from my work eyes, I can see that almost all of our new technology developments come from players who had an idea on how to make something better. There are some truely innovative things that came from elsewhere though and not directly from players.

...

So players are submitting ideas to the companies? Or is it more that top-level tourney players serve as a sort of focus-group for their sponsors, offering ideas on how to improve the products? that would be a logical aspect of the relationship that I had not considered.

[manike]

So players are submitting ideas to the companies? Or is it more that top-level tourney players serve as a sort of focus-group for their sponsors, offering ideas on how to improve the products? that would be a logical aspect of the relationship that I had not considered.

It's not top end tourney guys. Most of what they come up with is laughable. :)

The best things I've seen recently came from small time back yard inventors.

Paradigm shifts aren't over yet. :dance:

[PBX Ronin 23]

The X-Mag wasn't a technical innovation. It did what had been done for years, just for the first time on a 'Mag. It had eyes... big whop. Old news. Aluminum body... big whop. Old news. It was still an old RT 'Mag at its heart.
We can debate this point ad infinitum......but let's not. ;)

[Toxic Dave]

Wouldn't the correct answer be paintball players who work in the industry?? I can't think of a single PB company that is successful right now that doesn't have at least on player in the R&D dept. Dye..all of the people who make decisions are players, SP same thing, NPS same, Shocktech obviously, Pro caps..ballers up there. The list goes on and on. The thing is most of these people have done everything there is in this sport, they have a good idea of what will work, and if people will buy it.

Innovation is great if there is a market for it, if people don't want a product then they aren't gonna get convinced otherwise, no matter how groundbreaking it is. An example... and I'm gonna get lynched I'm sure, but the majority of the PB world doesn't want a hopper mounted under or next to their gun, especially if it requires them to buy different pods that require thought to load. Don't get me wrong both the Warp and the Q are innovative ideas for sure, but you don't see a whole lot of people using them do ya?

No amount of marketing hype is gonna convince people that they want a product they don't really want...and example, all of the WDP guns between the LCD and '05 Speed, all of them had their merits, but none of them gave people what they want...simple machineguns with breakbeam eyes.

dave

[Lohman446]

I am going to go with the players on this one. The question was asked what modifications have been made on markers by players - cheater boards. If it were not for the perception of everyone using them (and by no means everyone) SP would have never had the guts to revamp turbo mode for this era. Once SP did they likely experienced a "burp" in sales that the rest of the manufacturers found very hard to ignore.

Beyond that, lets go with what TK said. What actual performance gains have hit the market recently - what have we seen that has been truly innovative and had any real impact on the way we play? Face it, from the Freestyle at $600 to the $1500 "super markers" what is really the difference. Efficiency, sound, nothing overly consequential really. When I ordered my Devil Mag I did so not because of any performance gain I think I'll get over my Shockers, I did it for style reasons. It hs become more about who can influence the market of style then who leads the way in innovation.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

It's not top end tourney guys. Most of what they come up with is laughable. :)

The best things I've seen recently came from small time back yard inventors.

Paradigm shifts aren't over yet. :dance:


For some reason, it makes me happy to read this. Thanks, Simon.
:)

[PBX Ronin 23]

For some reason, it makes me happy to read this. Thanks, Simon.
:)
I wholeheartedly agree.....lol!

[Army]

Angels can cycle 38 cps. To say your Mag is faster is jsut ignorance. Not only was that setup not field legal, but it requires a scuba tank as well. Just stop.

Thank you! You have proven my argument! By saying Angels go 38 CYCLES per second, you have perpetuated their marketing strategem! Spyders can CYCLE at well over 40cps (ask Nerobro, I dare ya), which makes Angels lying about being the fastest CYCLING gun, doesn't it? But cycling ain't really shooting anything.

I said AGD has proof of actually SHOOTING PAINT at un-equaled speeds (prove me wrong on that...please!). Notice in all the so-called tests they do, other companies do NOT compare their speeds with Automags. Not because of obsolescence on AGD's part, but because other markers know they cannot go that fast without shoot-down, or with shooting paint. Fast cycling boards make for wonderful sounding marketing angles, but mechanical ability can never equal ELECTRICAL ability. Just because the BOARD can do hyper speed (which is what is really being advertised), does NOT mean the gun can go there. WAS is a prime example of marketing genius, since Drew makes great boards that go very fast, but they are MARKETED for guns that cannot use that speed. But he sells so dang many to people that just don't know any better.

Marketing runs paintball, hype runs marketing, ignorance about it all makes players run for the latest bling.

Again, had AGD blanketed 2 dozen teams with Emags, players all over would insist that the Emag is the greatest gun.................this week.

I will stay with my analogy, and be a 5%er.

[Lohman446]

Thank you! You have proven my argument! By saying Angels go 38 CYCLES per second, you have perpetuated their marketing strategem! Spyders can CYCLE at well over 40cps (ask Nerobro, I dare ya), which makes Angels lying about being the fastest CYCLING gun, doesn't it? But cycling ain't really shooting anything.

I said AGD has proof of actually SHOOTING PAINT at un-equaled speeds (prove me wrong on that...please!). Notice in all the so-called tests they do, other companies do NOT compare their speeds with Automags. Not because of obsolescence on AGD's part, but because other markers know they cannot go that fast without shoot-down, or with shooting paint. Fast cycling boards make for wonderful sounding marketing angles, but mechanical ability can never equal ELECTRICAL ability. Just because the BOARD can do hyper speed (which is what is really being advertised), does NOT mean the gun can go there. WAS is a prime example of marketing genius, since Drew makes great boards that go very fast, but they are MARKETED for guns that cannot use that speed. But he sells so dang many to people that just don't know any better.

Marketing runs paintball, hype runs marketing, ignorance about it all makes players run for the latest bling.

Again, had AGD blanketed 2 dozen teams with Emags, players all over would insist that the Emag is the greatest gun.................this week.

I will stay with my analogy, and be a 5%er.

I am going to agree, and then disagree with Army. Part of what hurt AGD was an early marketing push to actually educate the consumer on various aspects of the game, and the technology involved. Now, and TK has said this in another posts, the markers have progressed to a point that it is very hard to show an advantage of one over another, in fact one has to look pretty hard for them. It has left AGD in an awkward position, its now hard to show why they are better... in fact some of those people that TK has trained to ask questions point to factors that would make other markers more friendly to the game. I don't see Angel going in depth to tell me why 38 cylces is better, because eventually they have to explain that is cylces... no paint. Don't tell me "well what are we going to feed it with" - I'm sure you could come up with something, just as AGD has tested beyond Halo speeds (at least when they were testing). They don't test it, because they dont want to know the answers.
Agreed though, if AGD had Dynasty using E/X-mags we would hear how great there eyes (X) and anti-chop systems are. I decided to go back to a mag again... because I wanted something different than anyone else had - and I think the newest incarnation of the mag - the DevilMag is competetive with anything out there. Do I think it is functional better than the Shockers I sold for it - no I don't expect it to be, nor do I care if it is. I am though, taking the chance to be proven wrong - and it is the first marker since my fist mag that I have been truly excited to order - the rest were just tools, this is a work of art, of function, and it is something truly unique.

[PBX Ronin 23]

It seems like a great many of you seem to think that the Players generate more of the innovation in the sport than the manufacturers.

You've also concured that the main thing isn't so much the technical novelty of a product that will dirve the the demand but rather the marketing capabilities of the ones pushing that product.

Does anyone have any beliefs contrary to what I've mentioned above?

[Lohman446]

It seems like a great many of you seem to think that the Players generate more of the innovation in the sport than the manufacturers.

You've also concured that the main thing isn't so much the technical novelty of a product that will dirve the the demand but rather the marketing capabilities of the ones pushing that product.

Does anyone have any beliefs contrary to what I've mentioned above?


Barring a break through innovation on part with compressed air, break beam eyes, force feed - no. I do think that the next big innovation will be complex enough that it will be manufacturer started as its going to take some expertise... but I have no clue what it is... I hope its a minature, on board, electronically driven air compressor, but realize there are some serious technical issues to overcome.

[Toxic Dave]

Mel;

The answer I see being correct is both... Players in the sense that pretty much anybody in the industry plays, I can't think of a single company in paintball that doesn't have a player involved in the R&D process along the line.

dave

[Lurker27]

You want to talk about mechanical limits? Try paint smashing into the other side of the breech past 36 bps or so. BTW here's a video that includes full auto with a victory HALO at v35, fresh batts, and BIP at 1 with a morlock.

http://www.jayloo.com/videos/show_vid.html?pVID=466

Mags are an outdated design. Surely you can't defend the Emag compared to other high end electros. It is outclassed in every conceivable category. Efficiency, speed, anti-chop logic (see speed), weight.

What exactly is your point? I can go make a video right now with that moirlocked timmy, of a few balls and a lot of chops at 36cps. I won't, because its POINTLESS.

That was my whole point. I am so sick and tired of you AGD zealots trotting out Z-man's videos as proof of how great the mag is. It's ludicrous. that was my whole point.

Moreover, your spyder comment destroys your credibility. I could also rig up a sear release mechanism and a qloader, and it would be exactly as practical as a mag with a scuba tank attached.

At any rate, with the same (very fast) fingers, and a setup with no bounce, you'll get better results on a new angel than an emag, because of Shot queueing and eye logic. When L10 pinches a shot, it's still lost.


This is why super-mechs, like (from the factory) mags still being a viable top-tier gun, are a MYTH.

I would only shoot a mag with a 9v compatible electroframe, good eyes, and a L7 bolt. Something like a Devilmag, or (more likely in my case) a T-boarded spydermag.

[Beemer]

Paradigm shifts aren't over yet. :dance:

Ha Ha thats a good one. They will never be over. Its getting em started thats the hard part.
Can you say Hopper off the top. I bet you can. I also bet you use a vert feed.

[Lurker27]

They need to make a good tank-mount hopper.

[Vanced]

Its going to take a bit before everyone is really bored with whats out there now and forces a new change.

AGD

Players...

Players back in the day built the innovations they needed... Because a substantial number of the players were mechanically inclined individuals who had the knowledge and skills to innovate their own equipment.... And to be honest they had too... you didn't have dozen's of internet sites or pro shops to choose from... mainly just a few bad black and white catalogs if you were lucky...

Players today force the innovations... Errrrrrr..... Inovative Bling & And Innovative ways to achive questionably more BPS.... with their wallets (or their parents)....

Because without the demand of the players no matter how great the product is will die and rot on the shelves... and with today's younger player demographic, who I would feel comfortable saying, can't mechancially truly understand their gun, thus can't innovate on it... demand the things they truly do understand and can argue/discuss ...

Marketing Hype, Fo'Shizzle & Da Shiz-Nit of it all, Shinnys & Bling, and Shots per second...

Until the generally accepted or universally ignored rules of the game change, neither will this progression ( At least in the public perception of paintball I.E. - Tourny Ball & Speed Style Rec Ball )

NOTE: YES, this is not a blanket answer.... There are a lot of brillant players and people out there... and it is totally my point of view from what I have seen generally changing in my many years of playing...

[PBX Ronin 23]

Interesting perspective. I certainly do see your point about the old timers needing to innovate because there were no other source for such innovations.

Now all the "Aggists" have to do is run to the 14 pro-shop close to them or order from the 'net. I guess we can all draw the conclusion that the Mother of All Invention today in paintball is some 14 y.o. in South Cali.....lol.