Problem with paintball?

[GT]

I had a terrible day of play although the emag flat out ripped faces. i wont get into it but I think I might know why pb is changing.

I have played at 1/2 dozen of Houston’s "finest", term to be used loosely, fields. All have the same problems, and I think they all stem from the same source, not enough "adult" supervision. I am sure there are mature 16 y/o out there, but most of them are not reffing paintball. My thesis is the lack of oversight. I have not been to a field in a long time where "the owner" , term to be used loosely, is little more than a cash man. The irony is in the message: I only care about getting the cash. Once you are inside their four walls what goes on is of little concern to the game and more to the bottom-line.

This practice leads to "employing", term to be used loosely, refs whom barely know the game let alone how to use a simple device such as big red or the handle held chrono. Most of the time these individuals are poor at keeping the games flowing and are sought out to actually start a game, instead of being pro active. Most fields I have gone to lately are little more than stores that use their field to sell you crap, but that is another topic entirely.

What also bothers me is that these same young guys don’t have enough confidence to stop a cheater or enforce any kind of safety without reprisal from their fellow boyz.

I also noticed that the party I was with was in the minority, 18+ y/o. What I have found in the last year is that 2/3 of the players on any given day are <18.


Why have we allowed children to take over paintball?

[dave p]

Why have we allowed children to take over paintball?

i have been asking this question for a long while now. it goes back to what you said about money.

[peewee]

I feel your pain. All our local fields are identical to what you have described. It has made me step back from playing a bunch. One field in our area felt the crunch after a while because a lot of players stopped spending money there. They now have a whole new crew of still young but respectable people working the field. Its taken a while for them to come around.

[master_alexander]

i am in mansfield and like hit and run. i am sure you heard about extreme concepts really loose, they got drunk and unloaded on a mail train. they are now closed. i used to work there but quit because if my other job (reffing soccer). i love hit and run though also in mansfield. they are great and have been running for years.

the problem is not paintball, but the fields and reffs. I am probably the most advanced 14 year old paintballer out there. some kids get yelled at "put your barrel plug in!!!" and "keep your mask down!!!" and "no the tank does not go there the barrel does".

so there is no problem with paintball. just the bad reffs and the bad fields and the stupid people.

[JoshK]

I am glad to say that I don't have this problem. The owner of my local field (The Siege Paintball), is a very nice guy, and has refs that do whatever they can to help. It stinks that other people don't have the "luxery" I do :) .

Also you can ask most any of the paintballers from waukesha alone (there are a few). But I'm pretty positive they would say the same.

[shatter_storm]

There are a lot more young kids in paintball than there have been in the past. Yes, it's a safety concern and a growing problem. No, I'm not ragging on kids - you young guys have your place, but in my opinion it shouldn't be reffing, it should be playing.

I hate to make generalizations, but my impression is that teenagers lack confidance more than other age groups. Reffings takes confidance - you have to catch hot guns, you have to punish cheaters, you have to stand up for the fields rules and not let players (especially older players or ones that look "pro") push you around. I'm not sure that teenagers are well suited for this. Quick judgement calls can make or break a game, or save someone's eyes. I just don't think that younger refs have the wisdom or experience to make those kinds of calls.

One thing is for sure - Kids are great for profits. Teenagers have more disposable income than most other age groups, and they also have a natural tendancy to spend it. Impulse buying is great, and shiny go-fast markers sell. Go-fast markers sell paint, too. Win-win-win scenario for field owners - attracting kids makes a field money.



I kinda want to play with more mature players though. Squid-hunting a whole lot of rental-toting kids that can't drive gets really darn boring after like one game. Sure, they're smaller targets and they can move faster than I can, but they *SUCK* at paintball. :P

[FireITup14]

im 16 myself and although i think it would be cool to ref and stuff at my feild like all the other kids, id like it more if we had older refs. it seems as if they care more and they are more expeirienced. it just seems like you get better more orginized play when adults do it.

[Jackel411]

Why have we allowed children to take over paintball?


Because were all morons.... we demand cheaper equipment , cheaper paint , paintball on TV , MORE COVERAGE ,MORE PRESS.

We are killing it our selves. We are demanding things that are making it more affordable for snot nosed prepubesant morons. Sorry if I seem jaded but Ive been playing for 12 years and Ive seen a decline in older players since 1997, for some reason its becoming a youth sport I guess because its cheaper.

Look at the numbers.
Got to a sporting goods store.... You can get a model 98 with tank, goggles , hopper , and some paint for 170.00]

That same 170 couldnt even buy you a decent plastic gun pre 97.

Now.............

The internet shops also are killing this game. Why? Anonimity. So long as you have a credit card they dont give a **** if your 8 or 80 theyll sell you the gun any way. Back in the day you had to go into a local shop and if you werent 18 GTFO! No gun for you.

Also fields have changed from 18 years old to play period. To younger than 18 if you play with a parent. To fill out this form saying its cool for your 10 year old to play than just leave and go get a latte

Im sorry.. kids are going to ruin the game for all of us...


This is why my shirt for my team say " Im the person that will make sure you play one game and go home crying "

Rant mode off....

[peewee]

Sadly must agree

[nerobro]

I don't see equipment getting cheaper. back in 96, I got my spyder, mask, tank, hopper for $189, shipped.

High end guns are in the same price range as they always have been. The best guns are $900-1500, the basic guns are $70-150. The midrange guns are $300-500.

About the only thing that's really changed are hoppers and air systems. Accuracy is the same. with a good hopper, my 95 spyder will keep up with anything sold today.

What's killing the sport are the kids though. Whiney little babies. Most specifially the ones without jobs. People who don't earn their way in. I earned my way into paintball. I understand having to drive two hours to get to the field.

and if it's not kids. It's people who don't care about other players. "I" will help a kid fix his gun. "I" will apologize to anyone I break more than two balls on. "I" will not let my gun even creep over 300fps. "I" will make sure EVERY SINGLE SHOT I shoot is becuase I pulled the trigger.

And if it's not the lack of caring players.... It's the stagnation of technology. I haven't seen a new gun design since the matrix. The matrix was beign passed around the 99 skyball.

I dunno what to do. The sport is run by players. Which is a problem. We need a governing body. But the only people with enough money to build a governing body are the people who are screwing it up. (think rabid pattent holders)

I think a stock class paintball gun (think nascar, not "stock class") would work miracles for the sport.

[Target Practice]

Amen, Greg. The last 10 times I've gone to the field, I haven't played one game. I've CONSISTENTLY had 6 and 7 guns loaned out to people each trip. I'd ref when we had a big party. I'd tech and fix 3 or 4 guns each day.

After all of this, I went home thinking about the good day of paintball I had.

It's all about the attitude.

[stop whining buy a mag]

I'm 15 and I totally agree with some of you guys. My local field is firing all the decent refs that are about 18 and is hiring several 15 and 16 year old kids that have no more than one years worth of paintball experience. In the past two months I have played 5 times and not had a single good day of reffing. The field owner is a nice guy but tries to make it as cheap as possible to run the business.

Last weekend while I was playing several players that were off the field watching the game got hit by a few stray balls and got pissed. They started shooting at the kids on the field. It started a little mini war between the seven of them and the ref did nothing about it.


Refs should be at least 16 or preferably 18 by law.

[Kallahan]

So everyone under 18 is a retard? Bad refs are in every age group, bring it up with the store owners, they are not making much money right now, get a group of a few regs to threaten to leave the field for good and they will have to make changes to stay in buisness. A bad rep will kill a field nowadays. I'm 20 right now, I've seen plenty of bad players (behavior wise) and there is no correlation with age where I am.

[Evil1]

The biggest problem I come across in the NY area is: Many kids that are under 18 just hanging out at the field, shooting their unearned $1k+ markers in the staging area and playing one game a day, but shooting 2 cases in the process. The other problem is kids talking a big game but then getting mowed on the field and calling anyone that beats them cheaters. I kind of miss the days when paintball was really expensive and 99% of the players and field owners were cool and honorable.

[Pyrate Jim]

You could do as I do, which is to run games privately and have a minimum age. Some might call it outlaw but it's on my own property, safety rules are in place with chronos and pre-game briefings and my insurance covers me as long as it's not a business (ie: charging money to play)
So I have a few games each year that are all over 21, bring your own everything because there are no fees, no sales and no rentals. And no problems with babysitting.

Alternately, you could get all the older players together for a private game at a local field. Sort of like the birthday party games that they have privately.

[Trina]

I have met some awesome kids of all ages at many different paintball fields across the US, AO events, and big scenario games. I really do believe making rules not allowing younger kids to play would not be the answer. Kids are the future of paintball, without them as "clients", I could forsee many fields, online stores, and companies in paintball going out of business. As avid players, we enjoy seeing paintball get more popular and we ultimately want it to survive (wasn't it exciting when it first aired on TV?). I know you don't plan on babysitting when you go to play paintball, but if you see someone doing something wrong, the right thing to do is to say something. And instead of alienating the younger generation, be nice to them and maybe help them out (of course this doesn't always work). If all they see in paintball is bad attitudes, guess what?

But really, the only problem here seems to be with the field owners. If you have a problem with the refs, talk to the owners. I wonder if it would shape some of the fields up if you asked the owner for the name of his insurance company...and if the situation is real bad, (I know, this is evil) contacted them? :eek:

[SpitFire1299]

I got into paintball when i was in like 3rd grade. It was the coolest thing ever to me. But back then, i was the youngest of everyone and didnt know exactly what i was doing.

Now days... theres a million little kids on AO and on the field that are really immature, are bad at paintball, and are just annoying. Paintball should be a sport for everyone, but should be played in age groups, or by matturity level.

Little kids also get the biggest advantage running behind bunkers and stuff, you dont know where they are until they bunker you. :mad:

[Mr. Mouse]

not so much children taking over paintball but they are the majority of people buying all the hype stuff, i mean im 17 and just play to have fun and if i reffed id call cheaters and whatever out.

[Trina]

I got into paintball when i was in like 3rd grade. It was the coolest thing ever to me. But back then, i was the youngest of everyone and didnt know exactly what i was doing.

Now days... theres a million little kids on AO and on the field that are really immature, are bad at paintball, and are just annoying. Paintball should be a sport for everyone, but should be played in age groups, or by matturity level.

Little kids also get the biggest advantage running behind bunkers and stuff, you dont know where they are until they bunker you. :mad:

I have met many adults who are just as bad, sometimes much worse. And....I've been bunkered by and have bunkered all types of people...not just younger kids. :D Sometimes I think the smaller kids help me to up my level of play a little and modify my tactics. :ninja:

I suggest changing fields occasionally...it gets you around different types of people instead of playing with the same guys every weekend.

[RusskiX]

Kids are the future of paintball

No disrespect Trina, but at the perceived burnout rate for paintball players in general and younger players specifically, the future under 18 player seems to last about 3-4 years before hanging it up. And IMHO the burnout rate is even higher for the tourney scene than recballers.

While it is good lip service to claim that younger players are the future, my completely unscientific observation over the past 15+ years points out that generally the older, more mature player sticks with paintball for any amount of time.

Personally, I have played with lots of great kids, introducing them to my hobby. And it is thrilling to watch their face light up when they get their first elimination. But more often, I see 12-17 years olds on the other team, talking smack, spending obscene cash on gear, and getting rolled on the field. Now, if that is their idea of "fun", more power to them; I love the extra targets.

I just think that the financial obligation and respect which should be accorded to our potentially controversial sport is more suited to a higher maturity level than displayed by most under 18 players at my fields of choice.

Sorry for the pseudo-rant... /grumper off]

[Xzion]

I know one field that was -exactly- that, just there to make money. I live in a very rural area, and the closest 'real' field is a good hour away, however there is one that is nearby, unfortunately his practices are very 'iffy' when it comes to safety, and its obvious hes there just to make the money. most of his customers are 'renters' with a couple spyder owners that attend, and he rents out BE Stingray IIs last time I checked (which was some time ago) though the part that bothered me most, the -only- chrony he had was the owner shooting the marker at a maple tree, he judged whether it was shooting too hot by one or both reasons. A: he could tell by osmosis how fast the marker was shooting, or B: the shots took the bark off the tree. To me it was obvious he was more about the almighty dollar than the safety of his players after they or a parent signed the weiver.

To say the least, I never -actually- dug my gear out to play there. I value my health more than that to risk it at the hands of some schmuck in judging whats an 'acceptable' velocity was. I was seriously tempted to bring a field chrony and set my 'mag to 300FPS on the dot to see whether he deemed it 'acceptable' or not.

[shartley]

No disrespect Trina, but at the perceived burnout rate for paintball players in general and younger players specifically, the future under 18 player seems to last about 3-4 years before hanging it up. And IMHO the burnout rate is even higher for the tourney scene than recballers.

While it is good lip service to claim that younger players are the future, my completely unscientific observation over the past 15+ years points out that generally the older, more mature player sticks with paintball for any amount of time.

Personally, I have played with lots of great kids, introducing them to my hobby. And it is thrilling to watch their face light up when they get their first elimination. But more often, I see 12-17 years olds on the other team, talking smack, spending obscene cash on gear, and getting rolled on the field. Now, if that is their idea of "fun", more power to them; I love the extra targets.

I just think that the financial obligation and respect which should be accorded to potentially controversial sport is more suited to a higher maturity level than displayed by most under 18 players at my fields of choice.

Sorry for the pseudo-rant... /grumper off]
I believe you are correct in your assessment of the situation. While it sounds good to say young players are our future, they really are not. And I find that they in fact can cause some of the older players to stop playing, or move their game to other places.

This is not saying kids are evil or that they will bring down the sport. What it is saying is that field owners need to start enforcing rules. They need to stop worrying about possibly offending a group of teenagers who may or may not even stay with the game.

Like I always say, it is easier to blow out a match than to try to control a forest fire. And paintball at many fields now is in the “forest fire” stage. And sorry folks, that turns away more players than it draws into the sport.

The only way it will get better is if fields start cracking down. This will now doubt upset some players, but it will in the end create an environment where the sport can flourish.

But believe it or not, there is a growing number of older players not only standing their ground, but who are helping bring back the game that many of us remember. And I am proud to be a part of that group. I try to find the issues and problems and do what I can to correct them. Sometimes this involves on the spot corrections or assistance on the field, but also brining in new blood with the mentoring of much different “ideals” than I sometimes see on some paintball fields.

Paintball is not a RIGHT. People don’t have the RIGHT to play the game, nor have everything they want. And paintball is not a substitute for adult supervision. Fields are not a baby sitting service, for kids or immature adults. And I would wager that if fields started weeding out the bad players (of ANY age) that they would see an increase in business, not decrease.

Most people like to go and have fun. The don’t want to have to put up with garbage, unsafe actions, and overall poor behavior.

And sorry to say, if you can’t afford to pay for good refs, you may not really be in a position to run your business. Refs are your first line of control on the field, and are crucial to maintaining order and safety. They are just like anything else a field owner needs to run their business. Would they skimp on air compressors? Would they skimp on CO2 fill stations? Would they skimp on any other aspect of the field? I would hope NOT. And if I went to a field that DID, I can assure you that I would never go back there again, and I would also tell all my friends and associates WHY I will not.

Again, please don’t think I am ragging on kids. I am not. People will generally (of all ages) do exactly what you will LET them do. So start making and enforcing rules and standards that actually foster a positive and safe environment. Because fields are actually losing more players than they think they are gaining by keeping things status quo (some fields).

On that note, some of the best fields I have played on were the ones that I heard kids complain about how “mean” the owners and refs were. But things went smoothly, no safety issues (well, reduced), and I also tended to hear a lot more “I will definitely come back!” from the PARENTS of the players as well as older players. Imagine that…….

Sorry if I went on a bit, but I think that a lot of you are on the right track and know the deal. Now we just need to get those fields lacking “proper mind set” to get in line. Because if the sport falters, so does their income.

[Trina]

No disrespect Trina, but at the perceived burnout rate for paintball players in general and younger players specifically, the future under 18 player seems to last about 3-4 years before hanging it up. And IMHO the burnout rate is even higher for the tourney scene than recballers.

While it is good lip service to claim that younger players are the future, my completely unscientific observation over the past 15+ years points out that generally the older, more mature player sticks with paintball for any amount of time.

Very good point. And most kids do tire of a sport after a few years. I guess I didn't really think of it like that.

I can see many kids quitting while they're busy chasing girls (or guys) and then coming back to it when they're more mature and have expendable income of their own...let's be honest, going to a paintball field is not a way to pick up girls!! LOL!! :D

Seems to me like a lot of the "older" players are quitting as well though....

EDIT: Wow Shartley!! That was well put. I definately agree. Every good field I've been at has had an active owner who was involved in the ENTIRE operation, not just the income. And, of course, that is what keeps people coming back..

[JoshK]

Trina...you know just what to say to stick up for the little guys (literally :)). But the thing about good field owners being active is a good point. It's also one of the reasons I love my field. Not only are the refs helpful, the ref is even more helpful! He'll spend an hour working on your gun instead of trying to make money. Also i wouldn't be surprised if he trained the refs himself. One of the big problems for me, is relating to people who have bad local fields, and a bunch of cheaters. We just don't really have the problems it seems like paintball is having.

[Evil Bob]

There are two parts that I perceive here....

1) Your perception to what is going on around you has changed, you're more aware of what is happening around you and less focused on yourself. That's part of life, its called "growing up", you start to dwell less of yourself and more on your surroundings (ie. others). You'll understand this deeper when you become a parent and your entire focus changes drastically.

2) Basic laws of human nature: people in large numbers are stupid. With larger numbers tuning into to paintball, the common denominator IQ level and personal responcibilty level drops. Paintball related drive by's are on a raise, crime with paintball equipment are on a raise. Per capita percentages the numbers are still quite low, but the actual raw number of incidents per year are on the raise. Why is this? Simply because there are more people in the game and access to gear is now even easier then it used to be. You can now buy gear that performs well enough to play with at your local super store (walmart, kmart, Fry's, etc.). That has opened up the game to a great number of people who might not have ever even thought about it before. That's called "market penetration" and "mainstreaming". You think the stupidity level is high now, wait until everyone is playing it.

With that said, there have always been and there will always be young people in paintball, its nothing new. I was 16 in 1982 when I started playing, there were other teens there, some older, some younger. That's how life goes, much like being in school, you come to a point where you're the "seniors" in the class rank and you're ready to graduate and move on, you look down on the "freshmen", whom you perceive have no clue, you shake your head and laugh and move on with life.

-Evil Bob

[Recon by Fire]

Hey GT, which fields are you referring to? Anything in particular? I completely agree with your assessment. The problem with the kids is not their age though, it is in what the parents and society have allowed these young "wastes of brain matter" to become.

My neighbor and a group of his co-workers are newer players. It did not take them long to lose interest in the official fields because of the poor service and conditions. They have now gone to playing almost exclusively outlaw. I cannot say that I blame them.

Informing the owners of the conditions is not always the answer either. I have done this, received lip service back, and observed business as usual with no changes. Owners need to ba hard handed and drop these poor referees like a bad habit. If they do want to put forth the effort, there is 10 more people waiting in line to take their jobs.

[GT]

Hey GT, which fields are you referring to? Anything in particular?


Its been two fields in particular. Man I completly forgot to give you a shout about saturday. I was so pissed I thought about selling all my gear and take up golf. I here that pbUSA is a great place. I think that is where we are headed next. What weekend is good for you? Jason just got sat and sunday's off.

jb

[-=Squid=-]

Wait wait wait... I guess I fail to see where this is the fault of 18< aged people?

Wait, it isn't.

You say that the owner is all about the money? He's the adult, right? Sounds to me that the root of the entire problem is the adult, not the kid, by using your logic.

[Trina]

Paintball should be a sport for everyone, but should be played in age groups, or by matturity level.
Wow!! I can't believe I totally missed this! That would put me in a whole different category!! :D

[shatter_storm]

Wait wait wait... I guess I fail to see where this is the fault of 18< aged people?

Wait, it isn't.

You say that the owner is all about the money? He's the adult, right? Sounds to me that the root of the entire problem is the adult, not the kid, by using your logic.

It's not all about crummy owners. Think about the age groups here... 16 and under are pretty much in high school and then either have a job, have extracurricular activities, or have a lot of free time. College kids are more of the same, plus drinking, but homework and having to work usually takes up more of their free time. Get into the 21-29 age bracket and most everyone's working full time or more. Much more past that and people usually have families to take care of.
I know, it's a massive generalization, but the younger you are, the more free time you have. The more free time you have, the better your chances of using it to play or ref.
Field owners are being irresponsible when they employ referees that are underage... but when that's the only age group that wants to ref or is available to ref, then that's what they'll hire. Plus, they'll work for less.

[GT]

Sounds to me that the root of the entire problem is the adult, not the kid, by using your logic.

Dammit squid learn how to read! I dont understand the attempt at "gotcha." Its week, grow up. I thought you were banned? The great irony is that you and your "kind's"attitude and allowing you to get away with it, is the exact point of this thread. Here let me break down my post for you.


My thesis is the lack of oversight.

Why have we allowed children to take over paintball?


Where did I say it was the kids faults? Punks need discipline and the more mature need to pass on the tradition, and look at the root of the question.

[Recon by Fire]

GT shoot me a pm when you guys want to go play, also let me know what "fields" had you so upset.

I have abuddy that has been going out to PB-USA pretty faithfully, it is a good drive for him too since he is in the Kemah area. But he swears it is the place to play and the best field around H-town. I haven't been there yet myself but I was considering making it my next stop. LMK and all us newbs can amke out there for a day of play. :cheers:

[mark_1791]

What's killing the sport are the kids though. Whiney little babies. Most specifially the ones without jobs. People who don't earn their way in. I earned my way into paintball.
I completely agree. I remember a couple of years ago i was playing with my old cheap spyder and there was this one kid who had NEVER played paintball and his mom had just bought him an Angel. An ANGEL! The kid was acidentaly shooting all over the place cuz the trigger pull was so light!! I didnt even buy a new gun until about 2 years of playing. Then, I bought a mag WHICH I PAYED FOR MYSELF for $350.

To things like that, all i can say is wow. Just wow.

Dang all those kids that never have to buy anything themselves 'cuz they have parents that make like $400,000 a year! :cuss:

[-=Squid=-]

Dammit squid learn how to read! I dont understand the attempt at "gotcha." Its week, grow up. I thought you were banned? The great irony is that you and your "kind's"attitude and allowing you to get away with it, is the exact point of this thread. Here let me break down my post for you.



Where did I say it was the kids faults? Punks need discipline and the more mature need to pass on the tradition, and look at the root of the question.My "kind?" You do realize you are only one year older than me? I guess not...

I was unbanned, like all the others, because I was literally banned for no reason.

The way I perceive your post is a stab at the younger crowd, which is pretty common on AO. If it weren't, your closure would not have been what it is, instead it would be something like "where are the adults?"

Then again, I could care less.

[AO Moderation Team]

Squid has earned a 3 day ban for disruptive/annoying behavior.

[minimag03]

The problem with paintball is that we are running around shoot each other. Generally, people don't think that is good.

-minimag03

[GT]

GT shoot me a pm when you guys want to go play, also let me know what "fields" had you so upset.

I will email you tomorrow with the local drama.


My "kind?" You do realize you are only one year older than me? I guess not...

first I dont think you have any idea how old I am. Second I am not talking about age, again lets get this back on topic.


Why have we allowed children to take over paintball?

children is a realitive term, you can be 12 or 30...

[SSniper]

Im sorry.. kids are going to ruin the game for all of us...

yeah, this is true, but not ALL kids ruin that game.. there are kids who are firing hot guns but there are also old guys that wipe their hits, everyone just needs to take responsibility and be an example for the noobs... if you see someone doing something against the rules, confront them.

[AcemanPB]

I can't wait untill I turn 18 so I can bash all the kids playing paintball.

[REDRT]

I don't think younger kids are bad at all. We got a pretty good group of teens Refing at the field I play at. Most of which are new tournament players also. Adult supervision is always there. I ref as part of are teams sponsership. Sometimes these teen annoy me to no end and other times they make me laugh. I think of these guys as friends even though there half my age. Sometimes they even teach me a thing or two. I believe that kids of today are the future of the sport and it is going to take teachers to mold this new future. It is us the adults. We have to be teachers to some extent to insure the survival and well being of the sport, as we know it. Honestly, I never look at players as old, young , male or female. I only see a player. That is what I like most about paintball. All that doesn't matter. What matters is attitude. Attitude is everything. I try to stay positive most of the time and positive attitudes rub off. There is blame everywhere for everything. One has got to except the things you can't change, change the things you can and learn to know the difference.

[frop]

No matter how old you are, you will always be called a 'kid' by someone older than you(unless your the oldest person alive :D ).

THe problem goes further than childishness. It is the lack of caring, caring enough to DO something about it, even if you get shot down. Mebbe i'm just a lil retarded right now, but I see similarities to the Kitty Genovese case(no one helped while she was stabbed to death in a multiple encounter) and bystander intervention issues. THe attitude is: Someone else will take care of it, etc.

[shartley]

Wait wait wait... I guess I fail to see where this is the fault of 18< aged people?

Wait, it isn't.

You say that the owner is all about the money? He's the adult, right? Sounds to me that the root of the entire problem is the adult, not the kid, by using your logic.
This is not true. While the owners may be responsible for not making sure rules are made and enforced, they are not the root, or cause of bad behavior. Each person is directly responsible for what they do, rules or no rules.

The field owners are responsible for fostering an atmosphere where bad things are allowed or NOT allowed to happen, but they are not responsible FOR those bad things/behavior. The Adult is not the one who is making the kids do bad things. The adult is only responsible for not correcting that bad thing. There is a difference.

Personal responsibility is a thing that far too often gets pushed to the side in our society of “pass the buck/blame”.

No, folks under 18 are NOT the whole problem, but they are a part of it. I actually try not to “age” things, but go by actions. But in this case these actions tend to be done by a certain age group. They are not limited to that age group though, nor does everyone IN that age group do bad things. However, like I said in another thread the other day, until folks are willing to look at things calmly and rationally, no healing or change can occur.

[Blazestorm]

I used to see this problem at one field I went to, I now play at a field where the only thing not INTENSIVELY watched is barrel plugs, I've yet to see a gun mis-fire, but I have seen numerous rental people walking off without barrel plugs, as I'm waiting for the next game and people are walking off, I stop anyone who doesn't have their plug in, as well as mask on before leaving the netting.

Their field limit is 285 right? If you shoot 286 one time, they make you turn it down. It can be an annoyance, but it shows attention to the detail, they brief everyone on everything. And they make sure the "rentals" know if they're playing with the "high-end" and if they don't want to they can leave. The refs are pretty lazy with paint checking which can lead to cheating in some folk... But overall it's a great experience. Entry is 15 and paint is 25 a case and up, at an INDOOR FIELD. They have real bathrooms, a viewing area above, a decently large staging area (could use benchs + real tables versus spools, but whatever) and a full-stocked pro-shop inside. They do actually pay the refs (Not under-the-table or with paint/discounts) I think they make 10 an hour, working almost every day of the week, especially thursday, friday, saturday, sunday...

I'd say I'm pretty lucky... I'm going to be going to practice with cartel at a different indoor field in a couple weeks, 35 a case + free entry is even better.

I think stereotyping everyone young as ruining the sport is pretty rediculous... Most of the young guns I know (under 18) are more mature than a lot of adults that are paintballing. And I know some 14 year olds that are spoiled pricks. Example - I was playing on a team at a local tourney, we missed finals because we suck. This kid and his brother who were also on the team took my profilers to go watch our A-Team in Finals, well this was without my permission. I figured I'd just take one of their masks (I mean it was another 5 feet away from my bag?) and when I got out there the kid (14years old, about 4ftish like 70 pounds) "What the **** are you doing with my mask? Stay the **** out of my gearbag."

Ya... so him and his brother take MY MASKS, and I can't use one of his? Why doesn't he just take his in the first place? Christ. Did I mention he jacked one of my brand new profiler lens (25 bucks) and when I asked for it back he said "Nah this is mine." when I was sitting in a chair right next to my bag when he took the lense OUT of my bag and started opening the packaging... Being the nice guy I was, I figured he'd give it back at the end of the day... I ask for it back and he's like "wtf are you talking about, this is my lense" ... Haha, and I paid for his dinner afterwords... when I asked for some of the fries I paid for, he yet again denied me. I paid for them... "So what they're mine", Then when I asked to borrow his cell to call my dad to make sure he was going to be at the meeting place to pick me up, he said no once again. The most stuckup kid I've ever met in my life.

End of rant.

[The Action Figure]

I had a terrible day of play although the emag flat out ripped faces. i wont get into it but I think I might know why pb is changing.

I have played at 1/2 dozen of Houston’s "finest", term to be used loosely, fields. All have the same problems, and I think they all stem from the same source, not enough "adult" supervision. I am sure there are mature 16 y/o out there, but most of them are not reffing paintball. My thesis is the lack of oversight. I have not been to a field in a long time where "the owner" , term to be used loosely, is little more than a cash man. The irony is in the message: I only care about getting the cash. Once you are inside their four walls what goes on is of little concern to the game and more to the bottom-line.

This practice leads to "employing", term to be used loosely, refs whom barely know the game let alone how to use a simple device such as big red or the handle held chrono. Most of the time these individuals are poor at keeping the games flowing and are sought out to actually start a game, instead of being pro active. Most fields I have gone to lately are little more than stores that use their field to sell you crap, but that is another topic entirely.

What also bothers me is that these same young guys don’t have enough confidence to stop a cheater or enforce any kind of safety without reprisal from their fellow boyz.

I also noticed that the party I was with was in the minority, 18+ y/o. What I have found in the last year is that 2/3 of the players on any given day are <18.


Why have we allowed children to take over paintball?

good point, im 16 any ive been playin since I was 10 but I know what Im doin. The problem is the pbn agg kiddies

[Recon by Fire]

Blazestorm, I just have to ask; what were you thinking being on a team with that brat or your continued generosity towards him? :shooting:



I see similarities to the Kitty Genovese case(no one helped while she was stabbed to death in a multiple encounter) and bystander intervention issues. THe attitude is: Someone else will take care of it, etc.

I must have missed that case! It definately would not happen around here! :shooting: Say hello to my little friend, Mr. Beretta and his 31 companions of high-grain hydroshocks :)

[Eric Cartman]

...And sorry to say, if you can’t afford to pay for good refs, you may not really be in a position to run your business. Refs are your first line of control on the field, and are crucial to maintaining order and safety. They are just like anything else a field owner needs to run their business...

I agree with Sam on this completely. Bad reffing will turn me away from a field more quickly than anything else. I've been fortunate over the past few years to have a regular Sunday walk on for equipment owners (and any renters who want to play with the owners) to play at. Most of the people who play there are regulars and we largely police ourselves. If someone comes off of the field without a barel plug or pulls off a msak in an unsafe area, there are usually 4 or 5 players on them right away. We'll tell people on other fields in private games as well. Players very quickly learn that they can't get away with any unacceptable behaviour at this field and the ones who are a problem are asked to leave and never return. There's never any hesitation to call the cops if necessary (ie a disgruntled player shooting a ref or someone's car etc.).
Sadly I've seen far too many occasions where the ref is intimidated by the players they are supposed to be supervising. When there's no respect for the refs, things can get ugly or dangerous pretty fast. It's a difficult situation to correct as refs aren't usually very well paid so they tend to be summer students, many of whom don't have a great deal of experience with paintball.
Good fields need quality refs regardless of the fact that they can be difficult to find and keep around at low wages.

[Automaggot68]

There's a Field down here in San diego (Ramona, actually); Velocity Paintball. The Owners, Darryl and Denise run the field themselves, and they make sure everything is running smoothly. If a ref isn't doing their job, FIRED.

I can totallly relate as to what you're addressing, Its that way at Weekend Warriors, Jungle Island, etc.

[GT]

its sounds like alot of the posts deal with the difference bewteen a professionally run field v. someone whom is not used to providing good service in a service related industry.

gt

[MindJob]

The biggest problem I come across in the NY area is: Many kids that are under 18 just hanging out at the field, shooting their unearned $1k+ markers in the staging area and playing one game a day, but shooting 2 cases in the process. The other problem is kids talking a big game but then getting mowed on the field and calling anyone that beats them cheaters. I kind of miss the days when paintball was really expensive and 99% of the players and field owners were cool and honorable.

I live in NY, and I now realize that I am not imaganing things.

Paintball players used to be the coolest and most honorable group of people. I guess that was back when adults were running things.

[Kaiser Bob]

Ok, now for once i didnt read the whole thread before saying something so if i am repeating whats been said already I apologize. I think the main problem with fields that have substandard reffing is that most paintball fieldowners can't/can't afford to pay more then 6-7 dollars an hour, and thats only going to fly if you dont have bills to pay or if you are doing it on the side. That's why a large majority of the refs you see now are kids. This is definitely the case in H town as the paintball scene isnt exactly jumpin so there isnt a whole ton of money flying around for local businesses to operate. What someone really needs to do is come to Houston and build the definitive paintball field/arena, something on a huge scale, like Rexplex only more paintball focused with other sports fields just to add revenue. It would kill a bunch of little fields in the area, but it would at least consolidate all the money spent on paintball to one place and everyone could have a good time.

BTW, GT which fields were you talking about? I was at Katy Paintball a couple weeks ago because I had just happened to be driving by and noticed it. The owner seemed pretty nice and the fields looked good, but it was night so i didnt see any games. One of these days ill get a day off and join you guys.

[GT]

One of these days ill get a day off and join you guys.

Just pm whenever you want hook-up with the other hTown n00bs.


What someone really needs to do is come to Houston and build the definitive paintball field/arena,

Right next to the vans skate park. Major money over there, anyone got a couple mill I can borrow?

[PBX Ronin 23]

One of the biggest ongoing problem in Paintball has always been Human Resources....from top to bottom.

There are only so many Manikes for companies to covet. There are only so many quality Refs who will do the work at pay scales so low that you'll be hard pressed to find migrant workers to do for the same for the amount of money being offered.

[Cyberious]

I do agree. Most of the poor experiences I've had over the last 19 years of playing paintball (yep its been that long)were as a direct result of poor refs. Whether it be a missed call or allowing one of their friends to play on after a hit there have been many Paintball fields I've never gone back to. One of my local fields has refs who are too busy talking to their girlfriends to even come on the field. I used to spend lots of money there but haven't been back in 2 years. I recently played at a new field in my area where they have what I call professional refs of all ages. Most of them were seen reffing this year at World Cup. As it was my first time playing I really didn't know what to expect. At the end of the day I realized that I hadn't enjoyed a day of paintball that much in years. The refs were on top of everything. They made good calles and were quick to dissolve conflicts when they arose. The games were kept moving and were made fun by the referees creativity. I've been in tourneys where the only way to get someone called out was to light him up or goggle him otherwise the ref would ignore the hit. At Shatnerball 2 I saw some good refs and bad ones. I got lit up by some Angel toting fetus who shot me once then as I turned around with my gun in the air put another 13 into my back and side (i later counted the welts). The ref who witnessed this immediately stamped his card and told him that if he saw something like that again he was out for good. I felt that was a fair call by the ref. And I appreciated that he was on top of the situation. At the same time I saw refs allowing players from the other team to re-insert behind our side in the final battle. When some of us complained they checked our markers (without allowing us to see the velocity) and said we were shooting hot. That soured me a bit on the experience. I guess you take the good with the bad but I would really like to see some minimums established for being able to work as a ref.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

As much as I am sometimes annoyed by the behaviour of know-nothing younger players, I know they are not the real problem. A lot of older and/or more experienced players have not set good examples, or been helpful in the development of newer/younger paintballers. And as several people have pointed out, the attitude the field owners have towards safety and good behaviour (an attitude almost invariably passed on to their staff) is paramount. We've all played at some beautiful fields that were poorly run, and vice-versa. As concerned customers we need to make our wishes known to the owners, and to vote with our dollars when necessary.

Personally, I always wonder why so few people will name a location where they had a bad experience. Everyone seems eager to identify a good field. I think we would all benefit if we knew which fields people had problems with. Like a "trader feedback" forum, for fields.

[nerobro]

We can't place the blame on any one point, or person. The field owners need to hire good refs. Young refs frequently don't care enough about the job. Refs aren't (generally speaking) paid enough to care. Players never see any punnishments really dolled out. And the worst part is a jackhole can just move to another field the next weekend. Or even the next day. (note my earlier comment about a governing body)

WE need a governing body. I would glady pay an extra $5 a day to make sure true loosers never return to the sport.

We also need a stock gun. Not all guns being the same. But a set of rules within which a gun must preform.

But I'm jsust reiterating myself. The whole sport is screwed from the bottom up. Field owners are no longer players running a field becuase they love it. They are buisness people trying to make the highest profit margin they can. Same goes for companys like smart parts. Even the players are trying to find the highest profit ratio. (note blazestorms story)

SP is gone, WGP is sliding, AGD, AKA, Palmers... still have the magic. And look at the following they garner.

I wish thinking people were a higher precentage of the populous. If they were we'd have a chance at making the sport what it once was.

Okey, I'm jaded, and upset. I think I'm done with this thead.

[NukeGoose]

Here's what it boils down to:

$$$$

Sure, for most of the people here (who are more mature, on average, than most other paintball message board members, and more mature than most paintballers in general), it's worth the extra $5 added onto the field fee to hire good referees and to have enough refs per field. However, when you're starting out and considering where to go for the first time, you're not going to know enough to ask how many referees the field has per field, or how experienced the referees are, or etc. If I was playing for the first time, and one field said that they had a $5 field fee and one said that the fee was $10, guess which one I (and almost all other first-time players) would go to? The cheaper one, because price is always the deciding factor when you don't know anything else about the two options. The place with the worse referees will probably not have as much long-term repeat business, but most of the money is brought into the field by the birthday/church groups and the kids who play once a month or every other month.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

...
WE need a governing body. I would glady pay an extra $5 a day to make sure true loosers never return to the sport.

We also need a stock gun. Not all guns being the same. But a set of rules within which a gun must preform.
...

Paintball needs a governing body only for competitive play. Not for recreational play. Same for a "stock" marker.

Since most paintballers never play competitive/tourney, most would not be willing to pay extra. I have found that the best way to play is with people you know and trust, and who want to play the same style of game you do. Paintball jerks don't bother me much, since I almost never play with them. :)

[Kaiser Bob]

Field owners are no longer players running a field becuase they love it. They are buisness people trying to make the highest profit margin they can.


More often I see the guy that is trying to make a business out of what they love and just trying to make ends meet the best they can. Field owners making money hand over fist seem to be a minority, they of course have no excuse to not do what they can to make their fields player friendly

[SlartyBartFast]

one field said that they had a $5 field fee and one said that the fee was $10

:rofl:

I WISH! The indoor field I last played at was $35 whether you had your own equipment or not.

The group I was with brought their own paint ($42/case) and had some agreement with the owner to do so. Normal prices are: $200/case. :eek:

Not sure I liked the place or the group.

And I wondre why I don't play much. :cry:

You do have a point that first time choice is by price. But there are other ways to compete and attract customers. One of those is outstanding service.

But, you can't rag on field owners and refs too much. It's VERY difficult to run a paintball field even if you're just doing it for the love of the game.

$7 * two employees for 4 hours means: $56 just for salaries. Then you have to pay taxes, insurance, equipment, rent.....

[PBX Ronin 23]

Move to NJ and pay $25 with air all day and $40 for a case of paint. That's the cost we normally charge at PBX Battlezone.

[thorn]

i live in houston..go to katy paintball. they are cool peeps.

[nerobro]

Paintball needs a governing body only for competitive play. Not for recreational play. Same for a "stock" marker.

Since most paintballers never play competitive/tourney, most would not be willing to pay extra. I have found that the best way to play is with people you know and trust, and who want to play the same style of game you do. Paintball jerks don't bother me much, since I almost never play with them. :)

I beg to differ. In tourny ball, who cares how fast you're shooting. who cares what velocity your'e shooting. You're entring, knowing you're participating in the most agressive form of the sport.

Keep in mind, every sport has "stock" bits. Raquetball, football, soccer, basketball, swimming, every sport has stock equipment. why not follow their example?

A stock gun would make a huge difference in rof, reliablity, and overshooting.

The governing body is needed for both recball and tourny play. becuase "YOU" manage to play with people you like every time. that doesn't mean everyone can. And on smaller fields, you don't have a choice of who you play with.

We would bring in more players if we regulated the crap players out. It can happen. It has happened. NHRA, NASCAR, both push the crap out. We could fix the sport.

[Glickman]

you really dont go into paintball if your looking for mainly profit :D





Squid has earned a 3 day ban for disruptive/annoying behavior.

a mod with less then 10 posts...

thats... interesting

[kurama]

I agree with this thread. Most fields are only out for your money... There are always exceptions, but most honestly are. Fields always have bad refs, or good refs (but not enough of them). The other day, there were two private parties at the indoor speedball field, and a ton of walkons/tourney (it was raining, and they divide "walkon" and "tourney" based on your skill or what you feel like). Well, for me, walkons are very easy and I didn't have enough paint to sling for tourney. I asked the guy at the cash machine, who was asleep, if my friends and I could start a new group, do some 3v3's, and see if anyone wanted to join us. He said "sure", so we waited for the only other ref to get to the fill station and fill all of our tanks up. We waited an hour and fifteen minutes, most of which nobody was playing, before they remembered we were even there and got to play. Now, I think that the players desirve to actually play after they buy a 45$ case of paint each, or 25$ 1000 rounds, and a 20$ air/field fee. Oh, then they said after an hour and fifteen minutes that we should play walkons instead to speed it up. We said it'd be too easy, but half of the tourney players went to walkons anyways because 9v9's use too much paint... So, we played, with very poor reffing. The refs started the second round while I was still wiping paint off of my gogs, and I even told him to wait. Paintchecks were impossible, and people in the deadbox would come and play when the ref didn't look. Wiping was aweful, some guy with a cocker what chonoed at 383fps (I was sitting next to the chrono. Refs werent there to notice he didn't turn it down), people had allens, etc. Now, I am a very honest and mature player, considering I am only 14. I've never wiped, cheated, etc. The only time I came close to wiping was accidental and I called myself out anyways. Seeing this was horrible... Oh, and only one out of the 15 or so fields I've been to have actually checked for hydro dates. Yeah, this is a horror story, but the field I am referring to is always like this. Oh, and not every single cheat I mentioned happened in one game. I was at the field for 9 hours :)

Why are refs almost always bad? They're usually working for sponsorship, so they don't give a rat's *** how good of a job they do. When I play speedball, I usually only play with players who I know are honest or agree to be honest, and teammates. I used to be fine with cheaters, since they'd only be winning more welts from the tip of my barrel, but one game changed my opinion. In a 7 on 7, I hit 3 people off the break, 1 snapshooting, and bunkered one. Of all these people, only one guy off the break called himself out, I had to call paintcheck on the guy I snapped (he tried to wipe, but I was using some expensive paint I got from my friend), and ofcourse the guy I bunkered. This made us loose one of my best rounds I've ever had at the time. It sucked.

Anyways, rants and stories aside, I agree. Most fields suck.

[Blazestorm]

Just curious Kurama (sp) which field are you talking about, I live in washington as well...

[Blazestorm]

Blazestorm, I just have to ask; what were you thinking being on a team with that brat or your continued generosity towards him? :shooting:




I must have missed that case! It definately would not happen around here! :shooting: Say hello to my little friend, Mr. Beretta and his 31 companions of high-grain hydroshocks :)

I'd never played with the kid ever before and everyone raved about how cool he was and everything, in reality I wanted to kick him in the face. But because he was the super amazing kid, I would have been looked down on by everyone. Nobody wants to step up and tell the kid to STFU.

[Duzzy]

I only read the first page so if this has already been stated please forgive me.

However, I think everyone opinion is wrong on one level. A big portion of the problem in my area is the lack of people willing to ref. Where I am it is a thankless job, and the feild owner can afford to pay any number of refs if he wanted, it is just that no one wants to do it except for the "problem" people who want money for a new gun.

These refs (with one exception) are horrid. They call out moves to their friends, laugh off wiping, letting friends play for free, and a whole manner of other things. However, They do keep safety infractions down, so he has to keep them.

I think most of the problem is finding people willing to ref who can deal with the problems. How many people with a maturity level honestly want to put up with reffing? Maybe 5% of the population, personally I think I would make a fairly decent ref, but there is no way I have the time or the motivation to do so.

[Blazestorm]

Depends on how much I get paid, I reffed a few times for free (For entire days, for private groups and such)

[Duzzy]

Depends on how much I get paid, I reffed a few times for free (For entire days, for private groups and such)

I wish my home field had that problem... People volunteering to ref for free... And not having to wait 3 hour between games on occasion... It's almost like heaven...

[shartley]

Yes, you get what you pay for. If fields paid their staff decent wages they would get decent employees. It is not that there is not enough quality people to do a good job reffing, it is that most fields seem to not want to (or be able to) pay them what is needed. That is also why you see so many teenagers working at paintball parks/fields/shops.

I see fields simply wanting “bodies”, even if those bodies are kids who have poor work ethics or none at all.

But this is a two edged sword. The field has to be able to support those wages as well. And I tend to hear complaints about field fees and paint prices as it is…. which is where the fields make their money.

However, I have always maintained that if the field is WORTH the field and paint prices players should stop whining about high prices for a day of play. If you pay $15 field fee and close to $100 a case, but the fields are diverse and well maintained, the staff well trained and do their jobs well, you get to play with a wide range of people, etc. then the price is right. But too often folks seem want to pay nothing and expect the world.

Far too many players would rather go to a hole in the ground field that offers low field fees and BYOP, and put up with all the crap that goes with those places than to pay decent prices (or high) to play at a quality field. And honestly, as long as people keep going back to substandard fields, they will continue to BE substandard.

Paintball is not an inexpensive sport. And both players as well as fields/businesses need to realize this. And because of this, I for one, hold the bar high and demand those around me to do so as well. And if the paintball community as a whole did this the businesses would be forced to rise to that level.

[Duzzy]

Yes, you get what you pay for. If fields paid their staff decent wages they would get decent employees. It is not that there is not enough quality people to do a good job reffing, it is that most fields seem to not want to (or be able to) pay them what is needed.

I would say free practice time whenever they want, free feild fees, and close to wholesale prices on paint is a pretty nice wage. Especially since they can also work for cash if they choose, although most don't they choose credit towards new gear.

But in my case my point remains the same, reffing is not worth it for the few people I know who would be willing, and able to do a good job.

Most of it is probably because they don't want to deal with the current refs... But the shop owner can afford to pay for decent refs, he just can't get any with any consistency.