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Beemer
01-24-2005, 10:46 PM
Whos responsible?????????????? Who CARES!

This on a web site.

http://www.celebritypaintball.com/eventinfo.html


Players and attendees are responsible for their personal property and rented
property. Players are responsible for ensuring their paintball gear meets all ASTM and insurance standards and are within the set range of posted chronographed feet-per-second prior to entering the field of play at every insertion.


ASTM Standards

3.1.20 semi-automatic mode marker—a semi-automatic
marker discharges one time with each trigger cycle. Markers
that “store” the number of trigger pulls and discharge more
than one paintball at some point do not meet this definition.
Markers that operate in any other discharge mode(s) do not
meet this definition.

3.1.25 trigger cycle—the movement of the trigger through
discharge and returning to a reset or recycle position.


6.5.3 A marker’s performance may not be enhanced, including
but not limited to increasing the markers’ velocity, without
the use of tools or the need for disassembly. In the event that
a marker requires an internal switch, jumper or other device to
be set prior to using outside adjustments, it will be considered
to meet this requirement provided that tools or disassembly are
required to access the switch, jumper or similar device.
6.5.4 All paintball markers shall only operate in semiautomatic
or pump mode and may not operate in other
discharge modes such as burst, enhanced trigger or fullyautomatic discharge mode.

8.3 Accidental Discharge Test:
8.3.1 Significance—Paintball markers should not discharge
when jarred or jolted in a moderate manner while their
disabling device is disengaged.

6.5.2 All paintball markers intended to be used with refillable
cylinders shall be able to withstand input pressure of three
thousand pounds per square inch 207 bar (3000 psi) without
catastrophic failure. Leaking in a manner which would not
cause injury to the operator shall not constitute failure.


Post 33 here
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=160827


Now I know many of you aren't too worried about your fellow competitors. That if you shoot him 25 times, that's his bad luck. Many of you aren't aware that at the CFOA finale at Rock Hill, that there was a player who was bunkered by a ramping gun at point blank range in the head. The player who did the shooting was not malicious in his actions, but the quick pulls of the trigger did produce 6 shots to the mask of the player who got bunkered. Those 6 shots at that range broke the unaltered Profiler of the player who was bunkered. We were lucky and no injury occurred. Only the player who got his bell rung and had to buy some new goggles was the worse for wear.

See pics in this thread
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=162440

Correct me if Im wrong but the way I see it ASTM says One shot one pull[period] not to mention the AD[accidental discharge] test.[hair trigs]
Now we got ramping, rebound, full auto after 3 shots bla bla bla. Where does that leave US on the rec field when it ALL trickles down. Whos responsible WHO CARES.[you] I doubt it, cause YOU control the market, and look where its gone. Dont ya think our safety should be OUR first concern??????? There were reasons full auto was BANNED. I played with an SMG. I dont miss it.[I saw what it could do] The last thing I want to do is serious harm or PERMENENT damage to you, my fellow PLAYER of the Game.

Heres the bottom line. 47 peeps[industry peeps + a eye doc] on the ASTM Paintball subcommittee got together and put down these STANDARDS. For what?????????? Our safety and the furture of PB?????????? I believed but was wrong. Why???????? Cause ASTM is not MANDATORY its voluntary..........What a[female dog].. Ya the industry cares, about the bottom line. Or why dont they follow the standards[RULES] THEY put down??????????????

Quick Bio........... playing since 85. 9 years tourny team [S.O.B.s] Lively, NPPL etc, etc. Played thru the constant air, semi auto and HP air Paradigm Shifts. Been dropped to my knees from a point blank hit to the ear[friendly fire] Thankyou for the PMI Mask. Have gotten Paint in the eye. Not fun. I was lucky it was splatter. Still it put me on my back mid field mid game[thanks for the water flush Harry] You can keep the 6.6 mil. Ill keep my eyes thank you very much.
Home Field PaintBall Sams, Racine Wis. One Of the Safest if not The Safest in the mid west[Thanks Nikki]

Standards, full auto bla bla bla. Wanna play by the rules[Standards] 1 shot 1 pull? Be as fast as you are. I aint fast, 12bps on a e-gun if the stars are lined up right. Bring it on. Any time any where[U.S.A]
No standards[rules] I got an FN303 and will be suited up for it and so should you, REALLY.

Contrary to popular belief there is a way to put the cat back in the bag[make em follow the standards They put down.] Would it be easy? No Way. Could I do it by myself? Not at all.
It could be done but it IS involved. This would include ASTM and the CPSC.

I once asked someone why they bothered with something they were doing or why they did it if it was so hard and involved and they said, to make a difference and maybe save a life.
I like to think I make a difference at the fields I play by my actions comments etc...[lead by example] but all I get is looks and bad vibes......If nothing else at least I can say I always tried.

On a final note. If they would have stuck with the 90 degree valves[cali valves we called em back then] they started with 2 people would probably still be alive today. Brandon Johnson teenager[son] dont know if he had any brothers or sisters, and Colette Contois[Wife and Mother] They knew screw ins had an issue back then it just took 10 yrs. Where will PB be in another 10 at the rate we are going?

End Rant..............Discuss

Play SAFE......Follow the rules
Play Fair........
Have FUN......

Peace Out
Beemer

Muzikman
01-24-2005, 11:22 PM
beemer, do you have a full copy of the ASTM rules?

Kevmaster
01-24-2005, 11:41 PM
Good Post

Beemer
01-25-2005, 12:03 AM
Good Post

Thank you..........I needed to hear that.[now I can rest] But wait there will be more.

PBX Ronin 23
01-25-2005, 01:02 AM
You've just shed a lot of light on a previous thread that I started for the purpose of analysing the role of each participating group in paintball (manufacturers, players, ASTM Sub-com, Major League Promoters and Field Operators) as it applies to working collectively to address issues that will adversely affect the sport.

Issue du jour, higer ROF from Cheater boards. Issue du 1999-2002 that should have been addressed is the safety of CO2 valves.

Good insightful post. Thank you......we need more like it

billmi
01-25-2005, 10:28 AM
Good post.

The trouble with standards, is that no one follows/enforces them.

ASTM published standards for goggles. Major paintball leagues have rules that the only goggles allowed on their fields will have been certified to comply to the ASTM specs by an independant lab, and that the lab report be on file with the league. Think if you walked into the office of any paintball league, they could produce a copy?

PECC (ProtectEyes.org) was formed to be a consumer watchdog on this, they were going to be a third party seal of approval - but they started taking money from manufacturers and letting them use their logo before products were tested/approved, so they changed the policy. Now if you see the PECC logo on a package it means the manufacturer paid a dollar to PECC to put it there, and the manufacturer has told PECC that the product meets the standard. For the consumer, seeing that stamp means nothing more than the manufacturer's word, but it sure looks more official.

Unless government agencies step in, or consumers actually care enough to not buy products that don't meet the standards (HA!) nothing will big will really change. The insurance companies don't even require full ASTM compliance at the fields they insure, and for everyone that tightens their requirements, another steps in to get the business of the people that leave the first (look at the companies providing insurance for full autos at scenario games.)

Just think what would happen if one insurance company actually required guns to meet the requirements of being capable of semi auto firing only (i.e. not cabable of changing modes?) 90% of the electronic guns would not be allowed and fields would so not go to that insurance company with their business. Of course if the companies that agreed to build semi-only guns incapable of firing more than 14 bps actually followed up on their agreement, it wouldn't be a problem - but that's the bottom line, if a field owner, or paintgun manufacturer things that allowing something, or adding a feature is going to give them more market share than their competitors, that's what matters to them until they are literally forced by governmental regulation to change.

MicroMiniMe
01-25-2005, 05:31 PM
Any chance of it happening the other way around? Say grassroots created/hyperpressured by players. And I'm not talking about the younger tournament crowd . Will the trickle down effect of tournement guns with ramping et all start rustling the feathers of longtime players in scenario and woods/giant games.
The field Beemer speaks of as a model field is where I played my first real game. And Nikki and Harry are total stand up people for the sport. But the refs will tell you right away you WILL be overshot at any given point. Any game with well over 500 people and the chances are there. Now throw in 'blow sensitive' triggers and ramping, with increasing numbers to the overall percentage, and at what point does the overshooting be 20-30 balls in the air after you get eliminated to 100-150 balls in the air from all the sources shooting at you. And I'm not talking about one time at one person for a whole event. I mean a large chunk of eliminations all day every day. Will some of the grizzled players stand up or just move on/quit?
I'm not telling anyone what to do, I'm more curious if it would even be possible. Or what kind of influence (without plain 'put your money where your mouth is' consumerism) the non tournament types would have on the industry.

hitech
01-25-2005, 07:52 PM
Like I have said before, I would like to see a LAW that required paintball markers to comply with the ASTM standard. In addition, it would be illegal for said markers to be user adjustable such as to make them non-compliant. It will never happen, unless someone wins a big lawsuit because a marker was not ASTM compliant.

:sleeping:

PBX Ronin 23
01-25-2005, 08:00 PM
Strong point Hitech....strong point.

GT
01-25-2005, 08:44 PM
, I would like to see a LAW that required paintball markers to comply with the ASTM standard.

never gonna happen,
If you really want to change things changllenge currnet manufactures in court or start writting letters to insurence carriers. Sounds like you cant have buffer either..



beemer, do you have a full copy of the ASTM rules?

If he does he cannont post them

peewee
01-25-2005, 10:10 PM
ASTM's in my work environment for the most part set general guide lines. But in certain instants sets a specific test method with specs for equipment & procedure etc. Its funny my QA ( Quality Assurance) department at our factory keeps & maintains up to date ASTM's but none of our sister factories do ( cost some big bucks last set for 2004 was over $1400).

shartley
01-26-2005, 09:14 AM
As was pointed out, unless there are actual negative affects for not following their guidelines, they are only lip service for those who want to see some rules and guidelines.

Rules that are not enforced, are not rules at all, but “suggestions”. And we all know that people will not follow suggestions unless they benefit from them (or they THINK they will benefit from them). And manufacturers, fields, and event organizers will be hesitant to be the first (and possibly only) ones following rules that may restrict them in ways all others are not. That would put them at a disadvantage in the industry.

So as much as we all hate to see the Government get involved in things, it looks like the only way everyone will get on board is if they are FORCED to by an authority that can actually create some negative affects for noncompliance.

I think at first the industry would cry, but in the end it would actually solidify it as well as give paintball a more “legitimate” image. And following rules and regulations can actually be a SELLING point, not just something that they perceive as hobbling them.

rabidchihauhau
01-26-2005, 10:15 AM
I've spoken with Beemer about this subject offline for over two years now.

The first thing that needs to be remembered is that compliance with ASTM is voluntary. The place where it really kicks in is in the court room, since courts have long since established the precedent that ASTM standards are a benchmark by which safety and testing can be judged.

The same holds true for insurance; it is, presumably, within the vested interest of an insurance company to demand that their customers meet the minimal ASTM requirements (and any other standards established by industry-specific organizations) because they'll be doubly armed if and when they go to court.

Its much easier to point the finger back at player negligence when the field, the gun manufacturer, the goggle manufacturer and the paintball manufacturer can all demonstrate that their products meet established safety standards.

The big problem is that ASTM has no enforcement arm - deliberately so. Nor could the paintball sub committee establish one. The push has to be on insurance providers (who don't want to lose customers over non-compliance issues) and on the rest of the industry to demonstrate that their exposure is demonstrably less through compliance.

Right now, liability insurance and litigation costs are FAR less than the economic impact of compliance, so, in a very real sense, it is against a company's best interest to adopt standards that would negatively impact their sales.

I'd venture to guess that a tournament or gun would see INCREASED sales if they advertised "DOES NOT COMPLY WITH ASTM STANDARDS" these days...

Beemer
01-26-2005, 06:16 PM
Hey PBX Ronin, Heres one for ya in case ya missed it.

This thread http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=144571

made me start this
From here
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=141431

Heres the point. 2 loved ones are gone due to one reason or other from air cyclinders we use in Paintball. The first place the CPSC is looking is ASTM standards. The question is where will we be when the lawyers of 2 families and the CPSC are done looking at how we use air systems and what the fail safes are. The investigation by the CPSC is still ongoing


So as much as we all hate to see the Government get involved in things, it looks like the only way everyone will get on board is if they are FORCED to by an authority that can actually create some negative affects for noncompliance.

I think at first the industry would cry, but in the end it would actually solidify it as well as give paintball a more “legitimate” image. And following rules and regulations can actually be a SELLING point, not just something that they perceive as hobbling them.
Yesterday 09:10 PM

Good post Shartley. Now how do we head em off at the Pass?



never gonna happen,

You obviosly need more information. I dont know if "Law" would be the word to use. But there are ways to FORCE Compliance according to info I got from people I have talked to at the CPSC. What happened to lawn darts[Jarts] and why. That is just an example of what can happen when the fan is on High speed only

From here http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=165291&page=1&pp=40


]Sometimes it takes a major incident for us to find the need to organize and act for the greater good. Perhaps that time is a lot sooner than we would all like to think. When the lawyers representing the families of those who died in last year's CO2 tank incidents gets it in their minds not to quietly settle the suit......WATCH OUT. The potential ramifications should be worrisome to most (if not all) the companies in paintball.

And ya think more people would figure it out by now.

PBX Ronin 23
01-26-2005, 06:46 PM
And ya think more people would figure it out by now.

The problem with this industry is that there aren't enough macro thinkers. Too much emphasis is made on the "here and now" to the detriment of us all.

You better watch it though Beemer. Keep this up and you will be labeled as another "Chicken Little" like yours truly is slowly becoming.....lol.