What if...

[REDRT]

What if we were to class the markers we use like the skill level we play? Ok, here is my idea. Seems to me there is unrest on diffferent things mostly electos and high BPS. I've posted it in some other threads, but here it is by itself.
There is classes of markers. Super electros or unlimited class as I call them. 30+bps is a standard open to discussion, but curently seems logical. Next would come electo markers with debounce and what not, not to exceed 30bps. Third I would class the RT's. Being AGD is top in this category it would put them back into main stream tournaments again. 4th I would class classic semi auto, No electronics. Finally down to pumps.
Now with the markers classed we have already established levels of skill. Pro, amateur, novice, rookie, and newbie. If we were to have each level of skill matched with the categorys of markers. Pro with all 5 marker categorys, amateur and so forth. I would think we should limited the unlimited class marker to novice and above.
I think also that a player entering a tournament that lets say is electro-rookie should be able to bring an rt, classic semi-auto or a pump if they desired but not the other way around, electro to say an rt event. Or a pro to an amateur event.
I think this format would allow us tomove foreward with both skill levels and with are particular marker choices. For the first time ever You could go to a tournament and be somewhat equal. Money becomes less of an issue. There is room for growth, both in skill and or markers. Agd would be back in full force with the rt class. The industry would have alot of things to do for sometime. Who besides tippman and AGD have an rt?
I really think it would work out for all of us. I don't think I left any body out. Details might need some fine tuning, but it seem to be a solid plan. I open this for decussion now to you.

[Chronobreak]

this idea was already brought up ine one of ronins threads.

talking about seperating markers by class.

[PBX Ronin 23]

It's been discussed frequently in the past. They've even created a Pump Division in Skyball several years back.

Would I like to see something like this? Absolutely!

Would the powers that be in paintball want to see something like this? Based on their inaction, apparently not.

[teufelhunden]

I highly doubt this would happen. There's really no uproar in the tournament scene about the mounds of paint thrown at one eachother during a game, so I don't envision this taking place there. And then if this was to happen at rec fields, you'd need to hope that enough people show up to play in four divisions. Plus, what happens when, say, there's 23 people for the 'unlimited' and 7 for 'RT'.. you know owners would say "You 3 unlimiteds, go play RT" or something similiar..

[REDRT]

this idea was already brought up ine one of ronins threads.

talking about seperating markers by class.

Yeah I brought it up then and now. You post on one of Ronins threads it gets buried. I think the idea deserves a little more light.

[REDRT]

I highly doubt this would happen. There's really no uproar in the tournament scene about the mounds of paint thrown at one eachother during a game, so I don't envision this taking place there. And then if this was to happen at rec fields, you'd need to hope that enough people show up to play in four divisions. Plus, what happens when, say, there's 23 people for the 'unlimited' and 7 for 'RT'.. you know owners would say "You 3 unlimiteds, go play RT" or something similiar..

Not at the pro level. They have a full ride. It is there job. Everyone else is struggling to buy bigger better things. The idea that I posted would help everyone whom want to try have a better chance of reaching the top. A better chance in developing the game than always changing out markers not having the money to continue on. And as always thinking it just might help AGD out to!

[Lohman446]

I agree with classing by equipment, but wouldn't classing by amount of paint on field be easier then trying to determine what marker fit where? We already have enough problems catching people who would cheat in the "legal semi-auto" division.

Division 1 (rookie) - 300 rounds per player per game
Division 2 - 600 rounds
Division 3 - unlimited

Or however, just exampled thrown out

[REDRT]

I agree with classing by equipment, but wouldn't classing by amount of paint on field be easier then trying to determine what marker fit where? We already have enough problems catching people who would cheat in the "legal semi-auto" division.

Division 1 (rookie) - 300 rounds per player per game
Division 2 - 600 rounds
Division 3 - unlimited

Or however, just exampled thrown out

Kind of like limiting fuel in a race. Interesting. I hate it and like at the same time.

[Lohman446]

Kind of like limiting fuel in a race. Interesting. I hate it and like at the same time.

Exactly, if I have a 500 mile race and give out 10 gallons of fuel you're not going to bring a super dragster. Where you will still get some laning in the beginning of a limited paint event you would be less likely to toss a pod per person downfield... I could see taking 4/5 other players and not having any paint to shoot at the 5th or something. Would result in some interest strategy moves to I bet.

[Duzzy]

I like the idea of limiting paint but I think that is even less likely because unless I am mistaken isn't that where a majority of a field's money comes from? In big tournaments it might be ok, but in local ones I doubt it would go over well.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

I think it is a good idea for competitive play, to ensure a level playing field. It woudl need some tweaking to determine exactly how many classes you could effectively run, and how to define them.

Stock Car auto racing works this way, with numerous classes based on engine size, transmission, and body type. You rarely see all classes at a single venue, unless it is quite large.

If paintball was being governed properly, the rules would be written by what makes for fair & safe competition, not by what's convenient for the players of the moment. No real progress can happen that way.

[REDRT]

The one thing I see wrong write of way is field owners loose out fo alot of money. The last 5-man I was at the team and I shot a total of 22,500 paintballs. That was over $700 in paint. Now if we were limited the field owner isn't going to make near as much. The money gained by fees alone isn't enough. Paint is the big money maker at are local fields. It's what keeps them going. If something else was devised to supplement the money deficiency maybe.

[Vanced]

I have suggested it here a few times before... But I still like the idea of limiting the guns by one thing that is very easy to control... The Hoppers...

Force Feed / Agitated / Gravity / (( EDIT: or 10 Rounders for the Stock Guys ))

Easily Limits ROF's ... Anyone who has been around long enough knows Feeding the balls was the biggest obsticle to truly high rates of fire...
Easily Check for any kind of cheating vs checking for hidden modes or fancy electronics ...
Allows players to use any style gun on any level... It's hard to convince anyone who has high dollar death cannon to play with any thing else ... And even most of questiably intelligent or expericed refs can tell the differnce and pick out offenders...
Quickly level's playing fields for as close to an overall fairness as you can hope for expecially in smaller tourny / rec games....
And the Change over from one game / one level to the next is very easy.. and VERY CHEAP !

I have suggested and played this way on a very small rec level and enjoyed it greatly...

And it is just my quick worthless virtual 2 cents for ya... :rolleyes:

[REDRT]

I think it is a good idea for competitive play, to ensure a level playing field. It woudl need some tweaking to determine exactly how many classes you could effectively run, and how to define them.

Stock Car auto racing works this way, with numerous classes based on engine size, transmission, and body type. You rarely see all classes at a single venue, unless it is quite large.

If paintball was being governed properly, the rules would be written by what makes for fair & safe competition, not by what's convenient for the players of the moment. No real progress can happen that way.

Tweaking ok. We could class the rt's with electros if you could get people past the bounce issues and make it legal. Rts are fast when you juice them up and can hang with markers under 30bps in the 20 bps range eliminating one separate class.
Fields would have to account for the players that frequent there fields. Most pros aren't at the local fields here. So we wouldn't have pro events, but we would have rookie novice events all the time most being electro/rt class. Now with this idea we could hold newbie semi-auto to the kids and there is alot of them. They could use rental guns :eek: for the first timer that wouldn't normally do something like a tournament, cause they would get shot up! I think the possiblities could make a very positive and needed change on the hole tournament scene. It would get more people into paintball for a positive growth over all.

[REDRT]

It's hard to convince anyone who has high dollar death cannon to play with any thing else ...

I love it! :rofl:

[REDRT]

There is alot of people out there that want to limit thoughs high dollar death cannons to lower BPS. I don't, but I like to see them separate for the rest of the field to give the rest of the players a chance. Maybe that is it. Separate death cannon matches in the the verious skill levels only and allow the rest to stay like it is now.

I like the term "death cannon"! :D

[68magOwner]

hell, i would drop my viking for a mech anyday if all anyone i was playing against had a mech, i would definately love haivng the other teams backs playing with mechs that cant hold a lane like an electro

[Dawg047]

You guys can bash my idea all you want but last time I checked, markers don't shoot themselves. I don't think events or games should be based on what type of marker you shoot. What about players like me that shoot classic mags or other middle class mechs that can still hold there own in a game dominated by electros. My father shoots a Spyder Shutter and we went down to the local field. It was 4 on 4, him some others and I, on the same team against 4 high end electros. He took all 4 of them out with 4 paintballs! That is talent folks, not the marker. I do agree on the classes by paint though. That way you could have a stock class player with lets say 200 balls against a player with a "super electro" and he would still have a great chance. That electro player is not going to rain down on him with just 200 balls. I feel that would provide an even playing field. Like Lohman446 suggested, limit the amount of paint taken on a field. If a stock player wants to go into an unlimited class because he feels he would stand a chance, let him. If a new player with a "super electro" wants to enter a rookie game with like 300 balls because he feels he is not at the level of play than the people in the unlimited class, let him. Limiting paint to create classes lets the true talent of players show. That is my few cents. Thanks.

[SlartyBartFast]

If you want to create marker classes, you need manufacturer sponsorship.

There was talk of a mechanical tournament some time ago, what happened?

Want to encourage the use of mechanical markers/promote Mags? Do the same a Kingman once did and offer a prize to any winner that use your markers. Any team who places in given tournaments and can be certified as only using Automags gets say 5000$ Make the place that gets the money the team that places highest but at a minimum one or two position below tournamnet prize money.

Want to buid a mech only or division play as a player or group of players? Good luck. You and your zero marketing budget and infintessimal industry influence are up against the industry machine and have to convince a sufficient number of teams to show up with the right equipment.

Want level playing fields without the complexity of regulating equipment? Limit paint.

Want the easiest way to equalise equipment? Rule on minimum trigger travel and pull weight (both easy to measure).

[Dawg047]

Posted by SlartyBartFast:"If you want to create marker classes, you need manufacturer sponsorship.

There was talk of a mechanical tournament some time ago, what happened?

Want to encourage the use of mechanical markers/promote Mags? Do the same a Kingman once did and offer a prize to any winner that use your markers. Any team who places in given tournaments and can be certified as only using Automags gets say 5000$ Make the place that gets the money the team that places highest but at a minimum one or two position below tournamnet prize money.

Want to buid a mech only or division play as a player or group of players? Good luck. You and your zero marketing budget and infintessimal industry influence are up against the industry machine and have to convince a sufficient number of teams to show up with the right equipment.

Want level playing fields without the complexity of regulating equipment? Limit paint.

Want the easiest way to equalise equipment? Rule on minimum trigger travel and pull weight (both easy to measure)"




I agree. :cheers:

[Vanced]

There is alot of people out there that want to limit thoughs high dollar death cannons to lower BPS. I don't, but I like to see them separate for the rest of the field to give the rest of the players a chance. Maybe that is it. Separate death cannon matches in the the verious skill levels only and allow the rest to stay like it is now.

I like the term "death cannon"! :D

I don't want to limit the use of the guns... Heck I like bigger, newer, cooler as much as the next guy... and I hope everyone on the planet buys a high dollar gun ... It's good for the sport... no matter if is an adult with dispossible income or a kid disposing of his mom's credit card... money going into the sport is good for all in the long run... So buy a $1200 what ever and not a $120 wal-mart special

But Skill levels are too hard to define and nearly pointless when it comes to implimentation... and most players by nature want to play like and use what the best of the best are using if they can... I just want to see FIRM / SOLID / DEFINEABLE / & ENFORCEABLE rules in place and followed not matter what they are...

But back to the discussion... if you put a VL200 on a "Death Cannon" it is going to be a heck of a lot differnt than the same "Death Cannon" with a Mod'd Victory Boarded Halo ... effectively cutting the Max ROF by more than half... We all know a marker can't fire without a ball fully loaded...

And the 13 yo who is sucking up the hype & marketing can use the same gun as the players and style he is idolizing but play with it on a level that he doesn't get shot up so bad by a 31 yo who should know better...

EDIT: I wanted to add also this helps the people who can't afford the high end death cannon or like the Mech or pump markers... because a well set up or used Mech gun is going to perform on par with high dollar gun if you limit how fast you can feed it...

[REDRT]

hell, i would drop my viking for a mech anyday if all anyone i was playing against had a mech, i would definately love haivng the other teams backs playing with mechs that cant hold a lane like an electro

I think it would really catch on classing the markers for the tournaments. I know many people feel the same way, "wish we could go back, but" Last year we dicked around with rental tippmans and had a blast one day on the barrel field. We dropped our death cannons and had fun. The quest of winning has always been the bigger and better marker making it the key. You now take some of that away. Now it is the player and not so much the equipment.

[SlartyBartFast]

I like the idea of other equipment sponsorship as well. Why not have a hopper sponsorship and only that type of hopper is allowed?

I remember something about a Talon tournament being discussed once as well.

Tournament fees: 50$ Registration, field fees, all day air, paint, and marker included. :D

[Dawg047]

Yeah. I think the problem with regulating paint or type of hoppers is first trying to get fields to do it. And then second, trying to get players to do it. I think your correct with the whole winning thing. Yeah everyone wants to win but alot of people forget that it is just a game and people are there to have fun. I like going out and just playing with my old pump every once in a while because it is fun. Gets the adrenaline going.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

If you want to create marker classes, you need manufacturer sponsorship.


Not really. Though it would be helpful. The idea here is in the same hypothetical zone as Ronin's "governing body" thread, I think.



There was talk of a mechanical tournament some time ago, what happened?

Want to encourage the use of mechanical markers/promote Mags? Do the same a Kingman once did and offer a prize to any winner that use your markers. Any team who places in given tournaments and can be certified as only using Automags gets say 5000$ Make the place that gets the money the team that places highest but at a minimum one or two position below tournamnet prize money.

Want to buid a mech only or division play as a player or group of players? Good luck. You and your zero marketing budget and infintessimal industry influence are up against the industry machine and have to convince a sufficient number of teams to show up with the right equipment.


There will never be a level playing field as long as the industry controls the tournaments. It is not in their interest. But if the rules for competitive equipment are set forth by an effective governing body, the industry would have to adhere to them.

Your idea of following Kingman's promotional plan is a good one. You should pass that on to AGD (the company, not TK).



Want level playing fields without the complexity of regulating equipment? Limit paint.

Want the easiest way to equalise equipment? Rule on minimum trigger travel and pull weight (both easy to measure).

That's a good idea, too. But again, not going to happen unless the industry's grip on the tournaments is broken.

[ClassicMagger]

Hey:

I am thinking this is what you think the levels should be set up like:

Pro: Super electros or unlimited class

Amateur: electo markers with debounce and what not, not to exceed 30bps

Novice: RT's

Rookie: classic semi auto

Newbie: pumps

The only thing that I think you meesed up on there is you used the word skill.

This is what SKILL levels in my mind are:

Pro: Pumps

Amateur: Semi auto

Novice: RT's

Rookie: Electro markers with debounce not to exceed 30bps

Newbie: Super electros or unlimited class

You just got it backwards is all. Just a weathered paintball player's remarks.

-ClassicMagger

[Jeffy-CanCon]

The one thing I see wrong write of way is field owners loose out fo alot of money. The last 5-man I was at the team and I shot a total of 22,500 paintballs. That was over $700 in paint. Now if we were limited the field owner isn't going to make near as much. The money gained by fees alone isn't enough. Paint is the big money maker at are local fields. It's what keeps them going. If something else was devised to supplement the money deficiency maybe.

Limiting paint would severely limit the amount of money a promoter makes, no question. But from what I see, it is a vicious circle. Costs to the players are high, so the promoters entice them with valuable prize packs of uniforms, markers, etc., which eats into the promoters profits. As a player, even if you win a tourney, you are hard pressed to come out ahead after paying for practice paint, entry fees, travel, etc.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Classicmagger = right on!

:rofl:

[REDRT]

I don't want to limit the use of the guns... Heck I like bigger, newer, cooler as much as the next guy... and I hope everyone on the planet buys a high dollar gun ... It's good for the sport... no matter if is an adult with dispossible income or a kid disposing of his mom's credit card... money going into the sport is good for all in the long run... So buy a $1200 what ever and not a $120 wal-mart special

But Skill levels are too hard to define and nearly pointless when it comes to implimentation... and most players by nature want to play like and use what the best of the best are using if they can... I just want to see FIRM / SOLID / DEFINEABLE / & ENFORCEABLE rules in place and followed not matter what they are...

But back to the discussion... if you put a VL200 on a "Death Cannon" it is going to be a heck of a lot differnt than the same "Death Cannon" with a Mod'd Victory Boarded Halo ... effectively cutting the Max ROF by more than half... We all know a marker can't fire without a ball fully loaded...

And the 13 yo who is sucking up the hype & marketing can use the same gun as the players and style he is idolizing but play with it on a level that he doesn't get shot up so bad by a 31 yo who should know better...

Not all 13yo have the fire power of say a 21yo. Kids in the 13yo catagory seldom have much over a spider. By 21 most players have upgraded into some pretty high end stuff.
FIRM/ SOLID/ DEFIEABLE/ & ENFORCEABLE is all covered in the classing of the marker.
Look:
unlimited= 30+bps just about any thing goes here as far as marker
Electro= Electronic markers capped under 30bps
RT= juiced up bouncing triggers (could be classed with electro)
Classic semi-auto= minimags cockers ect without electronic for the marker
Pump class= A pump

No ref is going to be fooled with these guidelines. I think it is too simple. Everyone knows when you have a ramping board not hard to spot. Enforceable you bet

Even with a ramping board you can set the bps rate. If the ref thinks your firing too fast over the set speed are he has to do is look on screen what it is set for.

[Chronobreak]

30 bps would be asking for trouble......


anyhting 20-25 maybe...anything over 25~would be like allowing unlimtied HP and nitro and w/e else they wanted in nascar(not the best anology but)..

and with higher speeds comes higher risk

[SlartyBartFast]

Limiting paint would severely limit the amount of money a promoter makes, no question. But from what I see, it is a vicious circle. Costs to the players are high, so the promoters entice them with valuable prize packs of uniforms, markers, etc., which eats into the promoters profits. As a player, even if you win a tourney, you are hard pressed to come out ahead after paying for practice paint, entry fees, travel, etc.


I did a calculation for Skyball about how much it would cost if the cash pizes were eliminated and the money removed from the entry fees. It was significant.

A back to basics tournament thats all about the honour of winning.

Considering the attendance that can be generated for AO days, perhaps something along those lines should be tried. PBN vs AO anybody?

And, here's how to change the game to how you want it. Open your own field or start your own local tournament. Ok, I know, tough to do and tlak is cheap.

But, if you have land why not start a club and purchase/build a field? Then join with like minded clubs to play regularly.

How about a non-profit paintball co-operative run strictly for the game. If the local fields can exist on membership fees and paint sales and turn a profit, why not offer lower membership fees for a non-profit field? Rotate club duties such as opeing/closing, refereeing, clean-up. Make participation and attendance at membership meeting obligatory...

[REDRT]

30 bps would be asking for trouble......


anyhting 20-25 maybe...anything over 25~would be like allowing unlimtied HP and nitro and w/e else they wanted in nascar(not the best anology but)..

and with higher speeds comes higher risk

We are already past that point. There are guns reaching and exceding. A victory halo is one of the fastest loaders. Max of 35bps sastaind rate of fire. It is fast enough. I'd draw the line there myself. 2100 paintballs a min. :wow: Makes for a fun game though! Talk about hyper/speedball! Mostly with the new makers it is how fast and easy it is to get it there. I however feel it's a class by itself, as it should be. The biggest thing is their sneaking under the radar cause there is no sanctions to the local tourney scene. I feal this is wrong. Not cause you use them only they're used as an unfair advantage. Not with my plan.

[REDRT]

You guys can bash my idea all you want but last time I checked, markers don't shoot themselves. I don't think events or games should be based on what type of marker you shoot. What about players like me that shoot classic mags or other middle class mechs that can still hold there own in a game dominated by electros. My father shoots a Spyder Shutter and we went down to the local field. It was 4 on 4, him some others and I, on the same team against 4 high end electros. He took all 4 of them out with 4 paintballs! That is talent folks, not the marker. I do agree on the classes by paint though. That way you could have a stock class player with lets say 200 balls against a player with a "super electro" and he would still have a great chance. That electro player is not going to rain down on him with just 200 balls. I feel that would provide an even playing field. Like Lohman446 suggested, limit the amount of paint taken on a field. If a stock player wants to go into an unlimited class because he feels he would stand a chance, let him. If a new player with a "super electro" wants to enter a rookie game with like 300 balls because he feels he is not at the level of play than the people in the unlimited class, let him. Limiting paint to create classes lets the true talent of players show. That is my few cents. Thanks.

No one here is bashing you and your ideas. I did think it would be ok to take the classic semi-auto like the classic mag up the class to compete. I didn't however think a unlimited supergun should be allowed into a event for the same classic semi-autos. I think, by limiting the paint the field owner isn't going to make the money and the players with the high end guns aren't going to show up. My thought is in this senerio is alot of people just lost out.

[Enemy]

pan am did this years ago it made it a great place to start tournament paintball they had a 200 ball limit in rookie division the timmies still owned the field we tried to hang with our piranahs and tippmans but that didnt go over to well!! now pan am is dead mostly because of the the limit and xpsl took over now unlimited just like nppl!! the players already voted on which style they wanted your side didnt win im sorry.. on a higher note the last 5 man i played everyone averaged only 2-3 pods a game so just stick to nonaffilate events run bye novice players they are run good and sanbagging is kept under control!!