In Re: The Admin "Ban List"

[CaliMagFan]

I take this opportunity to make a statement and nothing more. This is not a challenge to any individual, but it might be one to our "society" as a whole.

The "Ban List" looks to me like trouble. I expect it to turn into a "My nuts are bigger" contest soon enough.

I fully dissagree with a lifetime ban on any member that is NOT partaking in a non-paintball related scam or other venture of the like. i.e. LittlePaintballBoy

Regardless of the sector, public or private, or the topic of the forum; censorship of the freely spoken or penned word is wrong.

Admins and members take a minute to recognize the source of funding/ownership of this forum and of what or whom that base of support is comprised. Then please take a moment to reflect on the age-old addage, "Do not bite the hand that feeds you."

I do not expect responses to this thread, but I will enjoy reading them if you have them.

Thank you, AO for being a place that facilitates the meeting of people like those of the Norcal group of players that I enjoyed being with last weekend. But, please indulge the idea that AO itself is not the focus here, it is the body of people under the banner that matters most.

With respect to the comment I made about funding this venture called AO, I am leaning more and more towards ICD for the purchase of a new high-end marker. Admin respose over the comming weeks will play a large part in that decision.

Thank you,
Kyle

[tony3]

Good Post.

[Conversekidz]

Its their boards to run how they want. You do not pay to keep this board alive (no member fees) and you are free to post here as ong as you follow their rules.

Honestly if you don't like how they run things, don't post on here.

[Target Practice]

I know this sounds mighty hypocritical coming from me, but if you don't like the rules, then leave.

e:fb

[Conversekidz]

p.s.

or start your own forums

[Steelrat]

Its their boards to run how they want. You do not pay to keep this board alive (no member fees) and you are free to post here as ong as you follow their rules.

Honestly if you don't like how they run things, don't post on here.

Do you think they provide this board as a public service? Its intended to serve as a meeting and discussion place for mag users, in hopes that it will "grow the business." As Kyle said, there is a danger in driving people away. Honestly, AGD needs all the friends it can get right now.

[CaliMagFan]

converse... some rhetoric...

Who owns these forums? AGD... good

how does AGD support this forum? ... money... good

Where/how does AGD make money?..... I'll leave that one partially answered... A) they have some defense contracts... and they also B) sell paintball equip. to _________..


i think you'll have no trouble filling in the blank

i'm not saying you're wrong... and i'm just making [controversial] conversation.

-kyro

[Tyger]

I hate to say this, but this is not a "public" forum in no more a fashion than McDonalds is a public place. McDonalds can refuse service to anyone for any reason, and ask you to leave the premisis.

The AO forums are like that. If you can't play by the rules, you're going to get bounced. They "own" the site, they can set up the rules any way they want. And they too can refuse service, if they so desire.

-Tyger

[mark_1791]

Ive been wondering: if someone gets perma-banned, wouldn't it be possible for them to just create a new user name and continue using the forums?

[Conversekidz]

Are you constantly buying new products directly from AGD or their suppliers? or are you buying it used from other PB players? If you are buying it used you really are not contributing money to this site at all.

So my point stands. Unless you are buying stuff constantly from them, or you are a share holder, you really don't have a leg to stand on.

This is their forum, they can run it however they see fit. I personally think they are doing a good job, and because of that it is not turning into a PBN.

[ProX9]

I agree perm banning a member like LPB increases the enjoyment of this forum, and it makes for a safer atmosphere for the kiddies. :rolleyes: :cry:

[Chronobreak]

is LPB not banned anymore or just didnt make the list?..i dont see his s/n

and cant he just make a new one?..but i heard he did and asked about the bane then got another :confused:

[CaliMagFan]

he told me that he was on a 10 day or something like that.... then he made a new name to PM the admin, and for making a new name they banned him for life.... i think they ban your IP wich would prevail over the process of making new user names....

he is listed on the first entry of the ban list

to tyger.... kick enough members out of your macdonalds for "trivial" or "iffy" reasons and see how many customers you have after a while..... I'm thinking you're not a small business owner.

please, to all, understand I know the difference between that which is private and that which is public.... in this country all government run institutions are public, anything else is private.... thats why i said this:

"Regardless of the sector, public or private, or the topic of the forum; censorship of the freely spoken or penned word is wrong. "

Converse:
you said this--"Are you constantly buying new products directly from AGD or their suppliers? or are you buying it used from other PB players? If you are buying it used you really are not contributing money to this site at all. " and "So my point stands. Unless you are buying stuff constantly from them, or you are a share holder, you really don't have a leg to stand on. "

to which i will refer you to the starting post in this thread, i'll help you out...
"...I am leaning more and more towards ICD for the purchase of a new high-end marker."

there are 2 types of high end markers: new and used.... i bet you can guess which one i talked about in that quote.

also... about constantly buying from AGD to support them, I don't constantly buy much in life... with the exception of: car insurance, gasoline, electricity, water, all other municipal services, roads, police forces... the list goes on...

but i am a walking, talking, and fairly-decent paintball playing AGD billboard.

Guess it seems like I have two legs to stand on, doesn't it?

[REDRT]

Wow there is a list going! Shoot if it continues as quick as it is going so far there wont be any one left to talk to good or bad.

[White_Noise]

i believe that some are thinking that the bannings that are listed are showing an increase in bans. i believe that this is false and it goes to show how much happens with the forums/moderators that we didnt know about. the only thing that has changed is that the moderators have to announce who and why they ban someone. whatever LPB did to get a 10 day ban, must have been fairly bad. and i have no sympathy for him for circumventing his ban, whatever his intentions were.

[Conversekidz]

Alright, let me put it a different way.

Unless you are giving AGD money to run the boards, you don't have a say in how they are run. The admins choose to have it run a certain way, and if we want to use it we can choose to play along with the rules, if you dont like that, or you don't think you can follow the rules, they maybe you should just leave graciously.

I'll say it again, if you are really bothered with how AO is run, go and make your own forum, create your own rules, and police it in your own way.


Oh and I thought i should add this. I have been banned before. I swore once in a thread and was banned 3 days for doing it. Ever since that happening I have not custed in a thread. I like being here, and if cleaning up my language means I get to stay, then it looks like that is what I will have to do.

[minimag03]

AGD does own the site, and they make the rules. I have placed several orders with them, including a whole marker. I don't feel that this gives me a right to change the rules of the forum. I do think that I (and all other people that have supported AGD directly) should have some kind of say in the rules of the forum. Ex: I don't know what LittlePaintballBoy did, but if the majority of the supporting SO says that he shouldn't be banned for life, then they should atleast consider letting him back.

-minimag03

PS: Don't get me wrong, I respect the mods

[lather]

Do you think they provide this board as a public service? Its intended to serve as a meeting and discussion place for mag users, in hopes that it will "grow the business." As Kyle said, there is a danger in driving people away. Honestly, AGD needs all the friends it can get right now.



So by that logic it would be best if AGD had no forum rules, to gather up as many "friends" as possible on AO. Next thing you know, you would see Mags in the NXL and NPPL, people trading their 05 speeds and Timmies for a ULT and AGD bearly able to keep up with demand.

Aint gonna happen.


Where any of those who left currently own or plan to buy a Mag? Did they actively contribute helping people who had problems with or teching a Mag? Sounds extremely self-important and presumptious to think that the future of AGD hangs in the balance of a few people that were banned or decided to leave AO.


Personally I would be much more concerned with the direction that AO was headed if folks like Musikman or Black VCG, GT, Tunaman, Coolhand and others were banned.

[Lohman446]

he told me that he was on a 10 day or something like that.... then he made a new name to PM the admin, and for making a new name they banned him for life.... i think they ban your IP wich would prevail over the process of making new user names....

Why is it, everytime this is brought up people seem to forget an important step. LPB was banned, LPB made another user name (a clear violation of the rules and grounds for an IP ban - circumventing a ban) and LPB MADE A PUBLIC POST. He might have got away with it if not for that last part. Noone on here has yet to tell me they honestly beleive that LPB was stupid enough to "accidentally" make a public post while circumventing a ban - they just seem to be rewriting history without a significant part.

[Load SM5]

I'm not sure what you mean by a "nuts are bigger" contest. None of us like dishing out bans. It takes time and a decent amount of virtual paper work. Plus we get the joy of somethimes having someone go all jihad on us, circumvent the ban, email us 50 times and cuss us out, go on PBNation and flame us there, burn lewd shapes in our lawns and shave our cats. All becasue they feel like the rules don't aplly to them. Sound like a good time? I assure you we get a lot more reported posts saying "Ban this guy" than we actually ban. When we try to take into account the the situation behind the offender's offense we get accused of inconsistancy and favoritism. Believe me I don't like bans because I hate making enemies. If people would just follow the stinking rules and not work up a squashing my 1st Amendment rights attitude we'd all get along just fine for the most part. This is a private forum, leave the 1st Amendment at the door, it does'nt apply here.

We post the bans to show people why they were banned and for how long. This means they have no excuse to make another account to come and ask why. And to show you guys that we actually do do our jobs even though we don't parade the accused down mainstreeet for all to see.

[Mike Smith]

"Regardless of the sector, public or private, or the topic of the forum; censorship of the freely spoken or penned word is wrong. "

We all have the free speech right, but we do not have the freedom from the consequences of our "free speech". IOW, you can call Bush a Nazi, and we can ridicule you/ ban you/ smear you for your obvious moronic "speech". {This is just an example, not meant as an indictment, and may not be relevant to your reality}

FYI: Take "free speech" too far and you could be charged, convicted, and executed for being a traitor.

[cledford]

While I think that choosing (or not choosing) a paintball marker based on what happens in a forum is a little silly I have to support the posters message somewhat. I consider myself friends with several, of the mods - Cphil, Rob, Potato - and think they put in A LOT of hard work and uncompensated personal time to make this the best run forum on the web. That having been said I was a little taken aback the other day when I popped in and saw the "banned" thing. Kind of caught me off guard and since several forums of all types are my main form of daily entertainment I was little surprised since no where else I frequent has even gone such a route.

I'm sure the mods have a very good reason for their choice - but with everything going with the company recently mag-owners are becoming even MORE isolated from the mainstream PB community. I think the banned thread might sent the wrong message to anyone new checking the place out. FWIW, for years Tom was striving to turn the PB world into informed, educated consumers who didn't buy into (or just plain buy) hype. As a pillar member of the manufacturing community he couldn't take on the hype mongers himself - so he educated us with the intent that we'd go forth and spread the good word. Well, that kind of backfired and I think in retrospect hurt the company and the owners. We all (Tom included) have the best intention when dispelling myths like rifling, spin, low pressure and closed-bolt - but to a certain extent most of the rest of the paintball world didn't like having their nose rubbed in the fact that they wasted $XXXX bucks on a aluminum tubes or whatever. It is a lot easier on the "psyche" for the average paintball consumer to blame us mag-owners and call us bitter crackpots while siding with all of the other dups who think that their expensive gizmo snake-oil actual does something - then admit the truth. When reading other forums I get the feeling that we mag-owners are *tolerated* not respected - even though we're the best educated, most discriminating PB players/consumers out there. I feel A LOT of people are actually happy with what is going with AGD - the street "word" is that the company has (or is eminently) gone under. To a lot of people who never agreed or liked the AO message what is happening is a sort of vindication for them. Frankly for several years now (my feeling) is that mag owners have been looked down upon. In retrospect I think a lot of it due to this.

In short I think that we've already got a image problem and are often considered "closed minded" because we won't buy into hype and fantasy that other will easily accept (providing enough other lemmings are on the bandwagon) - so the banned thing IMHO might send the wrong message to those who would already question us.

I KNOW this isn't true - just pointing out what someone not so into AGD might think when popping in.

-Calvin

[PBX Ronin 23]

As always, Cal is a voice of reason and moderation. I couldn't have agreed with anyone more. But some members really do not see it that way and that's a shame.

[shartley]

It always astounds me when folks bring up the “free speech” issue when talking about internet forums. I think our school systems should focus more on the Bill of Rights and what they actually mean and the rights they actually give us, as well as WHY. It looks as if there are a couple generations that simply don’t have a clue about it all.

Simply put, there is NO freedom of speech on the internet. Even if you pay for your own server space you will fall under the TOS of your Hosting Company, and that will dictate just how “free” your speech/use of that space is. And when you join an internet forum community, you sign that you agree and will abide by the rules set by that community…. to include those rules which may be altered or added to in the future.

A member’s only recourse is to NOT be a member there. Period.

Just because you can post somewhere does not mean you can dictate what the rules should or should not be. It does not even give you any “rights” per se. It simply gives you the ability to POST, and to do so following the rules.

I have NO problems with Rules. Rules set guidelines in which people must remain. And as long as those rules are enforced EVENLY there should be no problems for anyone else either. And on AO that seemed to be the major issue… rules were not being enforced evenly and consistently. This gave rise to some members thinking they could do and say anything they wanted and there would be no consequences. And for the most part, they were correct.

This also led to the appearance of favoritism. I will state however, that in many cases this was not just in “appearance”.

So now the sword has been sharpened once again. And not because the Moderators and Admin wanted to, but because folks in the general membership, by their actions, forced this to happen. I for one am GLAD it happened. I know full well that this sword has TWO very sharp edges and will in itself do the job of eliminating troublesome members from the forum (no matter what clique they belong to)… again, as long as it is swung evenly and consistently.

As long as the moderators truly enforce the rules evenly and consistently (which it looks like they are attempting to do at this point) NO member should have a problem…. Unless they have a problem following what are pretty simple rules.

Now as for folks only getting a say on what goes on here if they help pay for the forums….. Not true. I have heard that argument on other forums as well. Simply paying a fee to join a forum does not give you any “rights” aside from the right to enter and participate on the forums (unless specifically stated so by the forum owner). When you pay an entrance fee to get into a Bar, does that allow you to do anything you want when you get inside? And if you do something inappropriate there don’t they kick you out? Do they refund your money? Hmmmm Interesting.

How about if you go to a Movie? How about a sporting event? A guided tour of some thing or place? How about field fees at a paintball park?

The list goes on and on. Simply paying a fee to engage in an activity does not give you the right to do anything you want, nor to dictate how a place is run. Your right was to determine if you wanted to pay the fee and do the activity following the rules set by those in charge…. Period.

There is an overwhelming belief that people should just be able to do and say anything they want, any time, any place. But you see, that is just not the case. In fact if most people look back at their lives they saw rules and restrictions even in their own home. And they will in turn place rules and restrictions in their own homes as well. And so the cycle continues. But never fear, we will always hear the same things from those coming up in age. And when more and more responsibility is placed upon them, they will come to realize how important rules and boundaries are. They are actually not a punishment but are in fact (most cases) a protection.

And that is just what the rules on AO are… protection. They protect AO and the general membership from things which do not aid the community, but in fact harm it.

[Glickman]

The "Ban List" looks to me like trouble. I expect it to turn into a "My nuts are bigger" contest soon enough.

I fully dissagree with a lifetime ban on any member that is NOT partaking in a non-paintball related scam or other venture of the like. i.e. LittlePaintballBoy

Thank you,
Kyle

sometimes questionable, yes, but the mods here are very mature, very.



as for free speech, its limited by the facility you are in. while saying "i F8ing hate bush!" might be allowed outside in protests, its not allowed in libraries, because they are allowed to limit free speech. Schools can do the same thing, "F*america" was on someones wristband, and it was removed because of the school. same thing with shirts relating to alcoholic beverages

if you own the "land", you can limit certain parts of free speech.


if you need to get some vulgerness out goto the thorums or red vs blue forums, both are fine.

[Steelrat]

So by that logic it would be best if AGD had no forum rules, to gather up as many "friends" as possible on AO. Next thing you know, you would see Mags in the NXL and NPPL, people trading their 05 speeds and Timmies for a ULT and AGD bearly able to keep up with demand.

Aint gonna happen.


Where any of those who left currently own or plan to buy a Mag? Did they actively contribute helping people who had problems with or teching a Mag? Sounds extremely self-important and presumptious to think that the future of AGD hangs in the balance of a few people that were banned or decided to leave AO.


Personally I would be much more concerned with the direction that AO was headed if folks like Musikman or Black VCG, GT, Tunaman, Coolhand and others were banned.

No, that is not what I was talking about at all. I merely said that it was important to keep in mind that AGD (and therefore AO) needs to be concerned about driving potential customers away. And please don't label things as being self-important or presumptious, as those can be inflammatory terms, and frankly don't apply.

Oh, and by the way, LPB and his father have bought considerable amounts of AGD products over the two years I have known them. Now he is banned for life from AO. Think he or his dad will be interested in buying more AGD stuff? Who knows...

[PBX Ronin 23]

There are certainly a lot of ugly consequences that could be the by product of the tumultous environment that we find ourselves in.

[MicroMiniMe]

Oh, and by the way, LPB and his father have bought considerable amounts of AGD products over the two years I have known them. Now he is banned for life from AO. Think he or his dad will be interested in buying more AGD stuff? Who knows...

Well from what I gathered, LPB not only created a second account to circumvent the ban he posted in a thread to give directions and one other post flaming another member. I think the flame post he immediately deleted, but I think Mods can even read edits/deletes. I'm guessing the ban in the first place was for flaming. So Aegis and LPB can have a talk about actions and consequences and tolerance. If I messed up any of my facts I apologize to those involved. But it seems some things keep getting left out, or lack of interest in rehashing the whole ordeal.

[CaliMagFan]

We all have the free speech right, but we do not have the freedom from the consequences of our "free speech". IOW, you can call Bush a Nazi, and we can ridicule you/ ban you/ smear you for your obvious moronic "speech". {This is just an example, not meant as an indictment, and may not be relevant to your reality}

FYI: Take "free speech" too far and you could be charged, convicted, and executed for being a traitor.


HAHAHA... I thought someone might try and be a comic about this. Thanks mike for being funny. It's ok cause I know that Andrew Marvelle's winged chariot is ever-nearer to you than the rest of the sentient world.

[Steelrat]

Well from what I gathered, LPB not only created a second account to circumvent the ban he posted in a thread to give directions and one other post flaming another member. I think the flame post he immediately deleted, but I think Mods can even read edits/deletes. I'm guessing the ban in the first place was for flaming. So Aegis and LPB can have a talk about actions and consequences and tolerance. If I messed up any of my facts I apologize to those involved. But it seems some things keep getting left out, or lack of interest in rehashing the whole ordeal.

He was banned for having a sig that was inappropriate. Without knowing what was going on, he created a new account to PM a mod. While using the account, he made a post regarding directions to our AO day meet. He may have made another post, but if it was deleted, then he obviously recognized it was wrong. He is also a kid, and frankly, needs to be given a little slack for it. Almost everyone else has been brought back, why the need to keep him out?

You know what is really sad? I had a talk with a lot of people at our AO day, and frankly it seems like no one is too concerned that they have been, or might get, banned from AO.

[teufelhunden]

You know what is really sad? I had a talk with a lot of people at our AO day, and frankly it seems like no one is too concerned that they have been, or might get, banned from AO.

General consensus among the Thorum members as well, who are still being blamed for all that's wrong with AO.

[REDRT]

He was banned for having a sig that was inappropriate. Without knowing what was going on, he created a new account to PM a mod. While using the account, he made a post regarding directions to our AO day meet. He may have made another post, but if it was deleted, then he obviously recognized it was wrong. He is also a kid, and frankly, needs to be given a little slack for it. Almost everyone else has been brought back, why the need to keep him out?

You know what is really sad? I had a talk with a lot of people at our AO day, and frankly it seems like no one is too concerned that they have been, or might get, banned from AO.

I think Perma bands are given too easily! If a perma band is to be issued it better for something really bad and not so trivial!!

[Lohman446]

He was banned for having a sig that was inappropriate. Without knowing what was going on, he created a new account to PM a mod. While using the account, he made a post regarding directions to our AO day meet. He may have made another post, but if it was deleted, then he obviously recognized it was wrong. He is also a kid, and frankly, needs to be given a little slack for it. Almost everyone else has been brought back, why the need to keep him out?

You know what is really sad? I had a talk with a lot of people at our AO day, and frankly it seems like no one is too concerned that they have been, or might get, banned from AO.


If people would accept actions, reactions, and responsibility it would help. I don't blame any other forum, I blame a small clique that got out of hand.

Lets refresh what lead to a ban
1) He was banned for having a sig that was inappropriate - if I recall (and I may be wrong) it was a direct flame of another member.
2) He circumvented the ban and PUBLICALLY posted.
3) IP ban for clear violation of rules

If your able to post on this sight, your able to read, your able to follow the rules. Unbannigns happen, had this clique shut up, let LPB get over his temp ban and apologize, rather than make an issue of it, he may very well be back... now you have forced the mods into a public position of following the rules as spelled out.

Edit: As for cutting slack because he's a kid - no way. As for cutting him slack because he was a contributing member of this forum, maybe. I don't like to see anyoen gone who wants to be here... its just I think you have forced this into the public to far, and he has become the example of the "everyone being subject to the rules". He might have been able to sneak back in the back door - instead everyone tried to get him back in "breaking down the front door". Theres been too big a deal made about it now to let him quietly back in so the mods are forced wtih a harder decision.

[Duzzy]

To be honest I don't think anyone would like this forum if there was no control, or if there was "freedom of speech".

I also think that while the ban for LPB in this instance might have been a little harsh (based only on information I read in this forum, I have no knowledge of the actual event) it needed to be done for a few reasons.

1. Bending the rules for someone for whatever reason is favoritism. Take the use of the word as you will I am going off the dictionary.


I don't think the majority of average relatively unknown users would like that. Comments like, "Well you let him off for the same thing!" would not only hurt the mods credibility, but create a bad image for the forum in general.

2. There are numerous ways to get in contact with one or more moderators.


They have a "Meet the Mod" section, you don't even have to log in to veiw a mod's public profile (*edit which has the emails of two of them, and I assume that they can help you get in contact with the one you need).

3. The action was just.


The people to the best of my understanding have been given the punishments that fit the crime. No more, and no less. No rules were altered by prejudice. Saying punishment for x is y, and then giving y as a punishment for x is fair. Instead of questioning the Mods, why not try and talk to them about adjusting the rules, or telling them why you think a certain rule is unfair and giving ideas on how ot make it better.

Mods, my suggestion to you is that list all your emails in the "Rules and Bans" section.

[WaStEd TaLeNt]

All of you have many good points. But there are a couple of other things to take into account. AO is for the Automag community. The content contanined in the forums represents this community. IMO the mods ability to ban is not only for us, but also for the guests that come on to AO. We may never know who some of the guests are but there is the possibility that some of them may be looking to purchase a mag in the near future. And the possibility is there that there decision could change when they see actions of the general AO community. At the time that I am writing this there are 67 guests online.

On another note:PBN also has a ban list http://www.pbnation.com/banlogdisplay.php?

On a personal note: I appreciate the mods and their efforts and I want to say thank you. :hail:

[hitech]

Okay, I haven't read all the posts (I know, shame on me ;) ), so if I'm repeating what someone else said I'm sorry. What I think some people are missing is not what CAN the owners of AO do, but what SHOULD they do. Are some of the reasons for bans, esp. permanent bans, good for business? I think that is what CaliMagFan intended. And he has a point...

[REDRT]

Mods sounding like Arnold Schwarzenegger, "Get out, get out now'!

I'm sorry just comic relief. :D

[CaliMagFan]

Thanks a lot to everyone that has contributed to this thread... I've taken the time to really read all you have said, and where I thought prudent, responded. I notice that the philosophical trend on AO is not an average one. We seem to be a conglomeration of extremists. Where in real life we would (percentage majority-wise) all seem to agree, we seem to all be very split down the middle. There are those that say "no censorship" and there are those that say directly the reverse. I'm excited to see what happens with AO in the near time. I have enjoyed this community from the first time I stopped here.

I am surprised to not see any moderator input here (except for LoadSM5, of course). I thought this would be a perfect place to explain what is going on in their heads and to justify much of what they are doing, but only time will tell if they will use this resource.

-kyro

[MarkM]

Thanks a lot to everyone that has contributed to this thread... I've taken the time to really read all you have said, and where I thought prudent, responded. I notice that the philosophical trend on AO is not an average one. We seem to be a conglomeration of extremists. Where in real life we would (percentage majority-wise) all seem to agree, we seem to all be very split down the middle. There are those that say "no censorship" and there are those that say directly the reverse. I'm excited to see what happens with AO in the near time. I have enjoyed this community from the first time I stopped here.

I am surprised to not see any moderator input here (except for LoadSM5, of course). I thought this would be a perfect place to explain what is going on in their heads and to justify much of what they are doing, but only time will tell if they will use this resource.

-kyro

The idea behind the ban list being visible is that accusations were being made that it was just a certain clique that were being "singled out" this thread was put up to show this was not the case (other things are in the pipeline though if they see the light of day I don't know for sure).
A great deal of what is said on this forum that everyone can read is only part of story and frankly old ground now.
Favouritism is often rolled out by users who feel agrieved...we mods are only human (contrary to some descriptions elsewhere) and often will see things in a different way to each other, that is why things that are in the inbetween area get discussed and a decision made.
You will always get someone try to push the envelope with rules, if you equate this to paintball terms one ref might think a little bounce is ok another will say one shot one pull but the player will always see it as the ref is out to get them...see the confusion. You could post up rules that are real stinkers that would see many people banned as they fall foul of those posted rulings.
One thing that people have complained about is the attitude towards other users...well just because somebody doesn't know how to use the search facility is that reason to flame them? For any who have been around paintball (or whatever pastime) for any length of time will know, the magazines repeat technical articles with information they might have covered a year or longer before. Forums are exactly the same...do you fire off letters of complaint to a magazine because you read something they covered a year before?. No, you set your phasers to kill and flame away and then complain when you get pulled up over it.
The other idea behind the visible list is so that if a user is banned they can see the list as a guest and will know not to create another account to ask a mod why they were banned or get a "friend" to ask publically "why was fred2654 banned as I don't think he did anything wrong"..as the reason will be there for all to see.
Permenant bans are straight forward as you might well have done something minor that escalated causing a longer ban and then you for absolute stupidity broke the very clear rule of creating another account to circumvent a ban to come on AO...no defense whatsoever.

The internet isn't real life despite the way some people complain as if their purpose to life would be destroyed if they couldn't get onto their website of choice on a particular time of day. We all have to adhere to rules of one kind or another in life or the internet even the so called anarchists conform is some way or another within their own twisted sense of rules...(that is pretty deep but true) Visabilty is for the common good but then just as goverments need to discuss some things behind closed doors and many things discussed never come to public view the same is true of AO.

[CaliMagFan]

Visabilty is for the common good but then just as goverments need to discuss some things behind closed doors and many things discussed never come to public view the same is true of AO.


Your government system in England is quite a bit different than ours here in the States. Mainly cause we dont sit 100 people on local government counsils like you do. And also, most cities and states have laws that make it illegal to do government business behind closed doors. In California the Brown Act of '96 demands all governtment business and records be in open public forum. That is not the case though at the federal level.

Keep in mind that the members of AO are more of a panel of shareholders than citizens in some sort of government. Which means that you're extra accountable because your livelyhood depends solely on their constituency.

-kyro

[MarkM]

I used the goverment part as a hopefully simpler way of understanding what gets decided....the govermental system of the UK and the US are way closer than you give creadence to not that it has anything to do with a UK v US thing. That said, we have in fact just passed a Freedom of Information Act that means everything the goverment does on paper is available to the public (minutes of closed door meetings and discussions) so we are actually more open than the entire US with the obvious exception of National security issues. This is way off the topic in hand.
Does every law (in AO's case rule) get to be implemented...No is the answer and THAT was what I was trying to explain. Does AO have to be visible...No! However some visibility has been provided for the reasons I gave in my previous post...which you don't seem to have any comment on. I only replied because you wondered why only LoadSM5 had replied, I did as I personally felt you deserved some kind of explination.
You complained in your very first post about the visible ban list which I explained is a simpler way of stopping extra bans being provided...you can't have visibilty and then complain about it. This decision was reached behind closed doors, it isn't something that would have ended well if discussed in the public sector. Rational arguement isn't something that any forum lends itself towards it is always a compromise and one that some of the membership, membership (not shareholders) in this case is defined by signing up and agreeing to the inplace rules, will never find totally suits them.