AGD - a prestige brand?

[Lohman446]

Let me start this off with a disclaimer - I know nothing about the internal workings of AGD, there cost structures, there profit margins, who owns what patents, or any of the actual mechanics to make something like this work.

We have been begging AGD now to make us a lower cost, mass marketed e-marker. Sponsor a few teams and push these things into "everyone's" hands. We have been asking them to enter an already oversaturated market and fight for a market share - to try to compete with the establizhed players there. AGD in response has moved towards a different direction...

Now forgive me for rambling, this post could be made more coherent. I just ordered a DevilMag - custom annoed, predator board, eyes, everything I wanted in a marker - I didn't hold anything back on it, if I wanted it I got it with the marker and as GA Devil will tell you I spent a lot of time looking at the different things I could do, andhen ordering it and adding options after I ordered - he is a very patient person. I paid twice what I could have bought a comparable marker (the Freestyle) for. Please notethat this comparable comment may not be fair, I have not compared the two markers in my hand to each other (I will be given the chance to), but I beleive they are roughly comparable. In the end is this not one of the judgements that need made, I made the comparison as a consumer and chose the mag, accepting of what I beleive an unfavorable price for performance. My friend ordered a Freestyle at the same time - it will be here well before my mag is. I am thrilled with my marker purchase, more happy with it than any of the dozen or so markers I have purchased in the past even while I acknowledge I have likely gained little if anything in performance - I might still be surprised positively but I am happy even if I am not. I am willing to wait a reasonable amount of time - a month or two, and am willing to pay a premium price to have something "special".

When you think of cars and I mention, Chevy, Ford, Chrylser, and Ferrarri what do you think of as the ultimate performance, ultimate driving experience. I am willing to guess its Ferrarri. When I mention auto racing, what do you think of - I am willing to guess most of you think Nascar. Tell me, what does Ferrarri sponsor in Nascar? Even if you take the ultimate performance vehicles from these manufacturers they just do not hold the awe of the Ferrarri Enzo - even if they came close to matching them in performance. Think Fords ill fated attempts at building a supercar in the past. Then think of some of the Jaguar supercars, there were exposed wires, wiring issues... but they were still a supercar. For those of you that fly prop planes - whats the real difference between a Cessna and a Beechcraft? Nothing really, its about "eliteness".

AGD holds an advantage over a company starting out - they have a positive reputation with many players. Sure the Mag name might need to go to something nostalgic, I myself would love to see the Panther name out. It means something to those that know AGD, but has nothing to do with the mag to those that don't. But, I don't want a cheap for the masses marker.. I don't even want to see the "pro" teams using them. I want the "mystique" of a marker not found everyday... the mystique of the Ferrarri.

Think of the success of AGD sales - the X-mag for instance. They could barely build enough for everyone that wanted it at the "custom" prices - yet its cheaper sibling, even with nearly all the advantages (except ACE) languished in dismal sales - sure theres more e-mags out there, but those should have sold faster and better than what they did.

I want to see a super marker from AGD - do what you need to legally to sell them, give SP there marketting fee per marker (think small scale runs anyways). Do what you need to to attain something new like the MQ valve, or something "new". Or not... just lets not call it an X-valve, lets rename this sucker something. Now.. there are no "stock" color schemes on this - there are various fancy milled bodies, rails, foregrips, gas thrus.. whatever it is give options, not packages. Let the customer choose anno, make each one unique, make each one something special, one of a kind - make each one the $1500, the $1800 whatever it costs to make at a profit (understading price will be higher because there will be no "economics of scale" to lessen retail). Don't sponsor teams... let these keep there mystique let them build it by word of mouth. Do what you have to build that mystique with the media... Oh, and lets take a cue from Porsche on prestige marketing - NO DISCOUNTS.

Did I say give up the RTP - not at all - it works well with what you have. Its high quaility and overpriced for its market/class (nothing against it) - think of the Porsche boxster.

Just my thoughts this morning

[chairman_mao]

Very interesting post. I thouroughly enjoyed reading this and think it is a very provocative idea. My only comment on it is that my perception was there was much chagrin among those looking to buy X-mags because of the wait. This type of marker and sales would lengthen this wait considerably and may turn a great many people away. I understand that that adds to the prestege, so to say, but it also causes sales to be less. I think if you asked any of the custom shop guys they'd all agree that people can be VERY impatient when ordering custom markers. Anyway that's just my opinion but great post and I like the direction this is may lead us in :cheers: :dance:

[MindJob]

Good post... and very well thought out.

Im sure there are about a billion reasons that a company would stay away from an idea like that, but then again, PPS has made a living off like that for some time.

The big issue here is that we are talking about a possible $2000 marker. How much money is a company going to make selling a few $2000 markers as comapred to many more $600 markers?

There is also some merit to it though. A Ubergun could bring AGD back into the spotlight and help eliminate some of the ridiculous myths about AGD guns that have managed to bring them down.

Once that albatross is gone, who knows?

IMO, it would be a huge benefit for a company that could make a gun that turns everyones heads, and more importantly, make everyone envious and want one.

The first time I ran into a semi on the field I was the same way. It was a Tippman 68 Special. Everyones jaw dropped. All of a sudden, the markers that we all had weren't good enough for us anymore.

The first Angels were like that too. Not only was it technilogically superior, it was beautiful. You look at it and go "wow"

My X-mag was that way for a little while too. Now the people who know what it is are the only ones gawking at it.

SO, yes, I think AGD needs something to put themselves back on the map.

[Lohman446]

The big issue here is that we are talking about a possible $2000 marker. How much money is a company going to make selling a few $2000 markers as comapred to many more $600 markers?

Good point. How many more RTPs would it help sell though? For instance... do you think people would buy a Porsche Boxster if it were marketted as, say a Buick Reatta? If you could make the AGD name special on the high end, you would help sell the mid range marker as well to those that wanted the "ubergun" but were not willing to pay for it

[Vanced]

I'll agree and say interesting post... I like it's potential...

But I'll also play devil's advocate....

I think the long wait list and buyers of the X-mag were 95% of just AGD faithfull so the hardest part is just getting the first steps started...

I just see the paintball world a little differnt than some of the other "prestige" markets...

A prime example is right in your car example... I was watching some Car something or another on TV the other day and they were interviewing one of the higher ups at Bently ... and he even said the latest craze started by the Rap crowd is what turned his company around... And that was total dumb luck... because they have been around for many many years... making the same superior product they do now and sales were on the slumps...

So somehow AGD would have to find someone with fame and pull who is also able to have enough charisma for people to want to mimic... to start the trend... and I don't know if thoose people exist in the general paintball public... that would be willing to do it just for the "prestige" of it and not for a big fat endorsement check...

And not to mention Bentley or insert what ever you want to here... already has their product... AGD doesn't.... because as much as a lot of us loved it... the X-mag didn't cut it with the general paintball public...

And with so much else... it might be just considered a Trend... even if you could get it started... and could be the greatest thing since slice bread... but when you are dealing with fickle public opinion... they can change their mind ... VERY OFTEN... and VERY QUICKLY.... and AGD would be right back in the same position they are now... with the same core of devoted followers... and again be back in the public opinion as even worse than yesterday's news... and possibly distanceing itself from some of the new Rec and Scenerio Support it is currently gaining...

Don't get me wrong I would love to see AGD making a super marker as much as the next guy... even if it was just for us being the AGD faithfull and not with the goal to gain the overall public's praise...

[tyrion2323]

Think of the success of AGD sales - the X-mag for instance. They could barely build enough for everyone that wanted it at the "custom" prices

What you're overlooking is that AGD only made a very small amount of XMags. It's easy to sell 150 Xmags, especially with the loyal fanbase on AO. However, how many non-AOers have XMags? I'd be surprised if the number exceeded 10.

Now what if AGD had made, say, 1500 XMags? How many do you honestly think would have sold? It's easy to say that demand is high when you have such a low production number. The "success" of the XMag is trivial in comparison to, say, Kingman, which probably sells at least 150 markers/day, and yet they continue to sell at high rates.

My speculation regarding the poor sales of the Emag is that AGD wanted a ridiculous price for them. Trying to market old technology for high prices will not sell markers. When compared to Intimidators, Angels, Vikings, etc, the EMag falls pathetically short on features and performance. AGD's unwillingness to sell of their remaining stock at a fair price continues to deprive them of extra income. I imagine that, even 5 years from now, an EMag from the AGD online store will top $800 bucks.

As for the DevilMag - well, that's up to speculation. In my opinion, the Freestyle offers more (save for its ugly aesthetics), especially at half the price; however, the Devil mag seems to be a worthy competitor, even for the staunchest of critics.

[Lohman446]

What you're overlooking is that AGD only made a very small amount of XMags. It's easy to sell 150 Xmags, especially with the loyal fanbase on AO. However, how many non-AOers have XMags? I'd be surprised if the number exceeded 10.

Now what if AGD had made, say, 1500 XMags? How many do you honestly think would have sold? It's easy to say that demand is high when you have such a low production number. The "success" of the XMag is trivial in comparison to, say, Kingman, which probably sells at least 150 markers/day, and yet they continue to sell at high rates.

My speculation regarding the poor sales of the Emag is that AGD wanted a ridiculous price for them. Trying to market old technology for high prices will not sell markers. When compared to Intimidators, Angels, Vikings, etc, the EMag falls pathetically short on features and performance. AGD's unwillingness to sell of their remaining stock at a fair price continues to deprive them of extra income. I imagine that, even 5 years from now, an EMag from the AGD online store will top $800 bucks.

As for the DevilMag - well, that's up to speculation. In my opinion, the Freestyle offers more (save for its ugly aesthetics), especially at half the price; however, the Devil mag seems to be a worthy competitor, even for the staunchest of critics.

The point is though, sometimes its better to sell 10 items with a $500 markup then it is to sell 500 with a $10 markup. Prestige brands, by nature, go against the economics of scale advantages.

[RusskiX]

Good post... and very well thought out.

Im sure there are about a billion reasons that a company would stay away from an idea like that, but then again, PPS has made a living off like that for some time.



Good thread.

The only problem with producing an Ubermarker that defines high end is that in PAINTBALL the lowest common denominator prevails.

Most people at my local field would NOT recongnize a Palmer. Hence, PPS is not "in the spotlight".

People saw Angels as the new standard precisely because it WAS obtainable by the masses, not just collectors or afficianados.

Paintball just doesn't seem to be the environment that promotes exclusivity while keeping the allure of the current "IT" marker.

[tyrion2323]

The point is though, sometimes its better to sell 10 items with a $500 markup then it is to sell 500 with a $10 markup. Prestige brands, by nature, go against the economics of scale advantages.

If that were the case, then we wouldn't have both TK and the AO population complaining about how nobody knows what a mag is, or that mags don't sell. Also, if that were the case, AGD wouldn't be in the place it is today.

The population defines status and prestige. If very few people even want a product, it doesn't qualify as prestigious. People have to WANT to buy it.

[Lohman446]

If that were the case, then we wouldn't have both TK and the AO population complaining about how nobody knows what a mag is, or that mags don't sell. Also, if that were the case, AGD wouldn't be in the place it is today.

The population defines status and prestige. If very few people even want a product, it doesn't qualify as prestigious. People have to WANT to buy it.


There are steps that I have not gotten into, that I do not know the mechanics of. What I am trying to assert here is an idea of a goal. The idea I am asserting here, right or wrong, is that it may be easier to be the "prestige" brand - a market shared only by Palmers it seems, then to try to force your way into the "high sales" market that it seems to me, is already overly saturated. Trying to get into the "tournament" scene (not into being good for a tournament gun, but marketed like the Shocker) seems to be at this point to be very expensive, with only a marginal chance of success. Too much competition, etc. Do I know if I'm right or not? Not a chance I don't have any of the knowledge of the economics of paintball that it would take to know. It is simply meant as an ascertian of an idea. Sure, you would have to build a "mystique" - the mystique that was around the 03 Shocker at first, but you need to keep the marker few enough that the mystique continues. Use the competitors size, the competitors need to sell XXXXXX amount of markers to sneak in, and offer something special where you only need to sell XXX to turn your profit.. Don't try to compete with SP in SP's market (WGP/Angel, ICD, etc), create your own niche. Ferrarri, how many are sold each year? How many of us have even had the chance to experience what it is like to drive one? Yet the Enzo was sold out before prodution was finished. Let me take Mercedes as an easier example... roughly 95% of Americans (I got this number from a Mercedes conferance I was at when I worked at a dealer) see Mercedes as a vehicle of exceptional quality? I doubt 95% of Americans have ever owned a Mercedes, or for that matter know well someone that has. The point is, they are still desirable, I think it might be possible to make that niche in the paintball market. Remember, its often easier to create your own niche then try to take market share from a competitor. Mystique knowledge, right or wrong, travels well... and mystique adds to itself as it goes. Sure AGD might have to keep its mouth shut and not dispel rumors about impossible advantages of this super marker... but why not? Let's use mystique for its own hype...

I appreciate the discussion btw, I am open to the idea that this concept may be ludicrous, and it surely would not be easy... but I think it very possible, and I think AGD now in a position to take advantage of that possibility.

[Iceman8446]

I think this is a sweet idea. Now you old guys who have been around the sport much longer than I have could contest this but I think there has been a company to advertise themselves as the "Bentley" of markers or something like that. Could there be a market for this if no one else has done it? I think that producing a super mag wouldn’t really do a whole lot short term except cost AGD tons of money, but after a little bit these super markers might be really sought after by the paintball public despite only a few able to afford them.
Ferrari (because of my extreme bias towards corvette i really dont know a whole lot of details about Ferrari but I will use it as an example) got their prestige by winning races. Only after years of constantly winning huge races was Ferrari noted among the best cars. Would this bring about AGD sponsoring one team shooting their super markers?

[PBX Ronin 23]

I want to see a super marker from AGD - do what you need to legally to sell them, give SP there marketting fee per marker (think small scale runs anyways). Do what you need to to attain something new like the MQ valve, or something "new".

I would always listen to ideas anytime, anyplace. ;)

[Chronobreak]

sry lots of info here so i dint read everyones replies

i agree about the new valve or mq-valve it wou8ld be great if agd and pbx worked together.
but doubtfull.

im not sure how much $ valve sales account for or if agd would be hurt by not selling as many valves as marker(body,rail,foregrip) er nm forget the foregrip NO ONE LIKES THOSE AGD!!

[Gunga]

forget the foregrip NO ONE LIKES THOSE AGD!!

Plenty of people like the foregrip just fine, like me. As with most things, you usually only hear about it from those who don't like something and complain. .0001% of people ever call tech support to say, "Hey, I'm having no problems at all, great product!".

Interesting idea, Lohman. Only problem I can think of with the idea (using your Ferrari analogy) is that while the Enzo is quite exclusive, it's performance is equalled/surpassed by only a handful of cars which cost similar amounts of money or more. In paintball, your performance is based on how fast you can move your finger (leaving ramping/software cheats/etc out of it). There are lots of guns out there that can shoot faster than you can possibly pull the trigger. AGD'd would have to figure out some sort of exclusive feature that nobody's come out with yet.

Ferrari's certainly have looks going for them. That's certainly an area that Mags could use improvement on.

[Lohman446]

I used Ferrarri as an example for shock value, to get everyones attention. Let's say we had used examples like the Mercedes S500, Bentlley, Bose sound systems, or any other number of things and brands that represent prestige pricing with performance advantages being questionable, all you have to be sure of, is that you have the latest feature (like ramping on the predator board). I mean side impact air bags? How useful do you think they actually are - I know what they "can" do - I sat in on the seminars. I was flat out told by one car company that the purpose of offering AWD on a vehicle originally equipmed with front wheel drive was to make it more exclusive, to make it more pricey, and it really had no real world performance advantage over the front wheel drive model in any real world situation. HIs words "we polled people who had looked at our cars, and they had bought soemthing else because they wanted something more expensive then there neighbors Suburban, so now we have made it so that our car can be more expensive than that Suburban". These were not big cars either... four door sedans. I trust the point is out there on what I mean though.

[teufelhunden]

Please don't call Bose a prestige sound brand, kthx. :ninja:

[Lohman446]

Please don't call Bose a prestige sound brand, kthx. :ninja:

Prestige prices with performance advantages being questionable? I thought it was a great example.

[teufelhunden]

Prestige prices with performance advantages being questionable? I thought it was a great example.


Meh, I concur its performance is quite questionable, but I wouldn't call it a prestige brand.. unless of course you're talking about idiots, then of course it is ;)


Anyway, on topic..

[REDRT]

If AGD built a "death cannon" (still liking that term) :D and it beat everything out there. They could charge big dollars for it. It would sell because it is the best. There is alot of players out there today with no brand loyalty. They only buy what is percieved as the best. It may never happen, but if AGD built one and it happen to cost 2k I'd still buy it. The all new enter name, mag....

[Lohman446]

If AGD built a "death cannon" (still liking that term) :D . They only buy what is percieved as the best.

You hit the nail on the head. Prestige marketing is not always about being the best - factually one can build Civics that will run with the big boys for much less than the cost of a Ferrari. Ford has done it in the past with the GT40s?, but failed to effectively market prestige - remember the GT40's were winning races and loosing on the sales floor. In fact, some of the custom Vipers and Vettes runn better times than the Ferrari. Ferarri in an attempt to save there prestige will no longer compete in vehicle "shoot-outs" done by magazines - no cars loaned to the magazines to compare others to - a smart move, it keeps there mystique. The point is.. there is a marketing system around prestige, and it sells. Do I think you would have to sell a ton at some ridiculous price to accomplish it - not at all, this is just the opposite, in fact selling a lot may actually hurt the prestige name. Once you have AGD as a prestige name you will see a residual effect of that prestige as people buy the less prestigous AGD RT Pro just to have the AGD because AGD makes a prestigous marker. How many people were drawn to the X-mag and bought something less that AGD made, just to have something from AGD? (honest question)

I once saw an article on a Mercedes CLK? compared to a Pontiac GTO - there was very little in difference between the cars, some walnut trim, minor performance, if any... its just well, one has prestige. Is it possible to market a paintball marker into the same idea of class and perception among players? To me its a whole new idea for paintball today, market towards prestige, not to mass sales. It requires marketting, but marketting with a different goal, perhaps its more attainable.

[MicroMiniMe]

If AGD built a "death cannon" (still liking that term) :D

AGD Railgun
HPA tank ran right to valve, no reg. Gripframe with a barrel on top its so small. Very high pressure equals minimum of space required to operate.

/Isn't this what TK was envisioning he would build if released of all outside influences and built for his own joy of engineering?

[REDRT]

To me its a whole new idea for paintball today, market towards prestige, not to mass sales. It requires marketting, but marketting with a different goal, perhaps its more attainable.

That there is why AGD doesn't succeed. Marketing!!!! Really SP's and the rest isn't that great, but they all have one thing in common ie marketing. I like the "prestige" thought. When you think of the best clothing you think of... Dye and "The Art of Winning". A fantastic compaign slogan. Not to mention a catchy name "DYE". AGD could market even the old E/Xmags to this line of thinking and do well. If they were reintroduced with suttle changes and up'ed with a whole new marketing slogan, one with prestige in mind. It might work.
Feature it sitting on a hot European sportscar, Set in a fancy butcket of ice like champaign next to a huge trophy and caviar. The thoughts are endless.

[Conversekidz]

AGD should make an ultra marker and do it just for a team. Sort of like the Russion Legion Freestyle. It was built only for the team, and not sold to the public.

It would be a good way to get the name out again.

[PBX Ronin 23]

On paper it sounds like a good idea. In reality, it's a lot harder than you think for AGD to do that.

[Lohman446]

I don't doubt for a moment this would not be an easy task - please note that I specified not using a competetive tournament team to do this with - I do not think it is the most effective way of marketing it.

I have been told, look at how few X-mags were sold, 150? - thats a lot for what I am thinking. Make and sell half that number and you would be fine. Note that I know there is going to be a lot of cost in this marker - I also insist that the price be high enough to keep the prestige of owning one. I'm talking $1500, $1800, $2000 - keep in mind this is a custom built, custom anno, perhaps custom software marker. The mark-up, per marker, is going to be high, the profit per marker is going to be high. Use the profit off these markers to fund advertising - or to, well bribe favorable press comments. Whatever it takes to market this thing as the prestige marker, make that advertising, and this marker self sufficient - you could create a prestige brand... cust back advertising a little (not kill it), let the mystique around it build, for gods sake keep your mouth shut when untrue "hype" things start spreading, let it be better than real. Few people are going to buy a $2000 marker and then admit its not what they thought it woudl be, they'll put it up, say there saving it as a collectors item, whatever.

Did I just say this marker did not have to be profitable when advertising was considered? Yeh.. I did. Make Airgun Designs the designer brand of paintball... your demand for the "ultimate" mechanical marker will rise from the relationship to your ultimate supermarker... you have just niche marketed one thing to sell more of another. I keep going back to the Porsche Boxster - if this thing were not a Porsche and you compared it to other cars in its price range (Corvette, Honda S2000, Viper?) how do you think it would come out? They would sell a lot less if it had Kia emblems on it.

[RetroEclipseMan]

I like this idea, but in the long run I don't see it really working too well. I think the main problem is that AGD already has a reputation, which to the overall pb community is not all that great. Up till the time time I stopped shooting AGD guns 7 months ago I'd still get the "blender" and "oh, that's just a stainless steal brick" comments which means that people's opinions have not changed and I think even if you come out with some sort of supergun I still think people are going to assume the same thing.

A local Washington company, Splat Attack came out with their own "supergun" based off the cocker. Basically it was just an inline design mehcanical with a few other changes. Now, a lot of people don't know about these because they were marketed just as you've explained and were definately high priced. Their last model that came out about 2 years ago cost over $1500, when the average mechanical cocker cost half that. Now those that have shot it know that it's one of the best mehanical guns out there but the problem is that few really know about it.

I think in your expample if AGD did do something like this you would have to do a run of 75, sell them and then not produce any more for a few months and make them not available, since many people want something they can't have. I think even putting them in the hands of a pro team would be benificial, but only produce enough for the team and let people see them shooting them but not release them to the public for a while. Such as someone mentioned about the RL Freestyles. Let the mystique of the gun grow that way. I dunno, I'm gonna stop before I just start rambling, and just keep an eye on this thread.

[Lohman446]

I like this idea, but in the long run I don't see it really working too well. I think the main problem is that AGD already has a reputation, which to the overall pb community is not all that great. Up till the time time I stopped shooting AGD guns 7 months ago I'd still get the "blender" and "oh, that's just a stainless steal brick" comments which means that people's opinions have not changed and I think even if you come out with some sort of supergun I still think people are going to assume the same thing.


True, to a degree - but Mags have been out of the spot light for sometime. Many members mention how most of the "kids" don't know what they are. Frankly... pre eyes and force feed most every marker could be a blender... and people accepted that. Those who once owned mags walked away to something with all the "features" over time, except for some. I don't think the mag name is as bad as some think it is. Lets keep the AGD name, and rename this marker something else. I mean, look at the Shocker... SP managed to undo its reputation - time, mystique, rumors (true or not), could make a demand to exceed the supply - one of the tricks would be to make sure that demand continued to exceed supply.

[REDRT]

AGD should make an ultra marker and do it just for a team. Sort of like the Russion Legion Freestyle. It was built only for the team, and not sold to the public.

It would be a good way to get the name out again.

They did. 4.0 boards for everyone, but the public

[Conversekidz]

True but a 4.0 e-mag looks identical to a 3.2 e-mag. (yes I know on the display you can see 4.0)


Freestyle and a Russian Legion Freestyle look completely different.

I think if the mag comes out again in an electric form it needs to have an LCD screen on it, not that the digital screen they had in the E-mags don't work flawlessly its that the LCD makes the gun look "newer"

[REDRT]

True but a 4.0 e-mag looks identical to a 3.2 e-mag. (yes I know on the display you can see 4.0)


Freestyle and a Russian Legion Freestyle look completely different.

I think if the mag comes out again in an electric form it needs to have an LCD screen on it, not that the digital screen they had in the E-mags don't work flawlessly its that the LCD makes the gun look "newer"

Good point.
I would hope there would be a multi func LCD screen on something new.