What will we do to avoid ramping velocity

[Lohman446]

I asked this in another thread, and felt that this would deserve its own.

There is a feeling among many with ramping number of shots that it was allowed because "everyone" was doing it and there was no way to effectively control it, so it was let go after the leagues were unable/unwilling/ or just scared to enforce there own rules.

Now if you have been to a big even lately, at least the ones I have, the whispers you hear are no longer about ramping shots, but about ramping velocity.

Now ramping shots really did not concern me, it was an arguable safety matter and I argued that ramping shots really did not create an unsafe enviroment - it sounds like this year will be the test of that.

Now ramping velocity concerns me. I think we, as players, can almost universally agree that this is a dangerous situation... how do the leagues, how do individual fields and smaller tournaments, control this - to stop it from being "snuck" in the same as ramping shots was.

I think we have one major advantage, I don't think that even SP will make a board that ramps velocity, of course I don't think before rebound anyone thought they would repeat turbo mode in some variation either.

And now - to those that say "noone would cheat velocity". I know its done. Anyone ever see a mag valve with scratches on it on the first half. The rumor I have heard is that degassed one could turn the back half of the regulator away - not the adjuster screw, gaining some velocity, and turn it back for chrono. Many of us know the autococker trcik that resulted in beaver tails. Ever see anyone when CO2 and remotes were popular intentionaly get liquid closer to the marker when they had to make that long shot?

[athomas]

Electronic guns can be made to remotely increase and decrease the velocity and/or shot settings. This can be done via wireless technology. So, a whole team's guns can pass the chrono judges and then be "enhanced" for the game, and be turned back to safe settings after the game. The only way to prevent this would be to have on field chronos.

If a team was found to be using this technology to cheat, they should be banned from competition for a year as a deterent. Make the punishment so severe, that no one would be willing to take the chance.

[mcdkid]

the robot takes care of this problem, it reads velocity of most if not every shot. if it reads more the 300 the ref pulls the player. that is hard to fight, but i believe it could be done.

[teufelhunden]

Lohman-- those whispers have been around for the better part of two years. The NXL has dealt with it, in the form of arming refs with chronos [the radar gun lookin things], and has apparently curbed the issue. The NPPL/PSP, as far as I know, has yet to do anything, but in the event that it becomes a problem, I have every confidence it will be dealt with.

Outside of the major tourney scenes, I highly doubt it's an issue at all; how many commercially available boards have you seen with a velocity ramping feature? I haven't seen any either. This would mean either needing a MAJOR hookup with a pro team that does velo ramp, or commissioning someone to build you a board with those software capabilities. I believe the latter is far more probable than the former, and I believe that latter is more than likely very cost prohibitive.

[phantomhitman]

not to sound like a butt, but why is there a discusion topic about every single aspect of the game now on ao? it is good to discuss topics but it is everyday a new topic is brought up.

i responded back in teh original thread about the ramping velocity issue. also, what gun can be remotely changed?

[teufelhunden]

also, what gun can be remotely changed?


None come from the factory with that feature. It would take the commissioning of a special board that would have a bluetooth or wifi antennae on it to do so.. not to mention the software necessary to use those devices. I think that's about as far fetched as Angels coming with coffee machines next year.. actually, I heard that's more likely.

[Lohman446]

not to sound like a butt, but why is there a discusion topic about every single aspect of the game now on ao?

Why not?

And why - because its winter, and some of us don't play in the snow.. so we're bored

[WARPED1]

How do you ramp velocity?! I know its done, but how?! To increase velocity on most guns, you need to physically adjust something, a nut, the tank etc. I'm unclear how a computerchip turns up your velocity?

[Lohman446]

. The NPPL/PSP, as far as I know, has yet to do anything, but in the event that it becomes a problem, I have every confidence it will be dealt with.

Outside of the major tourney scenes, I highly doubt it's an issue at all; how many commercially available boards have you seen with a velocity ramping feature?

This is not meant as an attack, but isn't this the attitude that helped lead us to where we are today with ramping shots. I just, well I like ramping shots so have no problem with it, but I am concerned that the same "we'll figure it out when its an issue" when the rumors of its use are already floating around attitude will put us in a very bad spot at some point - I would hate to think, that five years from now we could say - well ramping velocity, as long as its no more than 30FPS is ok, because we can't stop people who are already doing - kind of what happened with ramping shots. And we'll see the same justification - well the first three shots have to be without ramp, so in a bunker move... etc.

[Lohman446]

How do you ramp velocity?! I know its done, but how?! To increase velocity on most guns, you need to physically adjust something, a nut, the tank etc. I'm unclear how a computerchip turns up your velocity?


Im under the impression you increase dwell time - not sure though.

[WARPED1]

I can't see how doing the dwell time can change velocity. How would that turn a nut or change the input from the tank?

[teufelhunden]

This is not meant as an attack, but isn't this the attitude that helped lead us to where we are today with ramping shots. I just, well I like ramping shots so have no problem with it, but I am concerned that the same "we'll figure it out when its an issue" when the rumors of its use are already floating around attitude will put us in a very bad spot at some point - I would hate to think, that five years from now we could say - well ramping velocity, as long as its no more than 30FPS is ok, because we can't stop people who are already doing - kind of what happened with ramping shots. And we'll see the same justification - well the first three shots have to be without ramp, so in a bunker move... etc.


I think the difference between ramping velocity and ramping bps comes from the testing done to determine that velocity over 300 is dangerous, whereas nobody has shown anything other than sob stories that ANY rof is dangerous, or more dangerous than another.

The NXL took action against velocity ramping as soon as it was possible, as far as I know. They did not for ramping, which I feel shows that the tourney series' do care about safety issues such as velocity ramping.

As much as I support using whatever modes of fire are legal, I would never support legalized velocity ramping.

And yes, velocity ramping is done by increasing the dwell time. The code actually already exists on MANY markers, in the form of an ABS function. It would simply have to be adopted to be called at a specific ROF.

[teufelhunden]

I can't see how doing the dwell time can change velocity. How would that turn a nut or change the input from the tank?


The dwell is the amount of time that whatever valve the gun uses is open and air is flowing to the paintball in the breech. More time = more air = more energy = higher ROF.

[SlartyBartFast]

not to sound like a butt, but why is there a discusion topic about every single aspect of the game now on ao? it is good to discuss topics but it is everyday a new topic is brought up.

i responded back in teh original thread about the ramping velocity issue. also, what gun can be remotely changed?

well D'UH......

If new topics weren't brought up, wouldn't be much point of having a discussion group would there. :spit_take

[SlartyBartFast]

Outside of the major tourney scenes, I highly doubt it's an issue at all;

Outside the major tournys fields have a problem policing Spyders with thumb-screw velocity adjusters.

Last big game I went to you could easily see the same two morons chrono, then walk onto the field cranking the adjuster all the way to high.

Then the dumb-@@@ field owner and head ref had the temerity to ***** and scream at all the players after a ref had to be sent off to the hospital after being knocked unconcious from a head shot. :eek:

[teufelhunden]

That's not ramping velocity, that's idiot kids and stupid refs who don't lock down the tourney lock.

That's easy to see.. if someone plays with the thumscrew, velocity just went up. It's harder to detect velocity ramping without some equipment.

[lew]

How do you ramp velocity?! I know its done, but how?! To increase velocity on most guns, you need to physically adjust something, a nut, the tank etc. I'm unclear how a computerchip turns up your velocity?


The circuit board controls the solenoid in an electronic gun; thus, the board can hold the solenoid in the open position longer. The solenoid controls the hammer/ram that hits the valve.
By keeping the hammer/ram forward lonfger, the valve is open longer, allowing more air through, increasing the velocity.

This instance would apply to Intimidators, Impulses, and the like.

[trains are bad]

shockers, matrices too.

[MarkM]

Electronic guns can be made to remotely increase and decrease the velocity and/or shot settings. This can be done via wireless technology. So, a whole team's guns can pass the chrono judges and then be "enhanced" for the game, and be turned back to safe settings after the game. The only way to prevent this would be to have on field chronos.

If a team was found to be using this technology to cheat, they should be banned from competition for a year as a deterent. Make the punishment so severe, that no one would be willing to take the chance.

Although Teufelhunden has already replied in part to this post...why are you rehashing rumours that were from varying sources and actually originated from a stupid rumour that the Russian Legion had ear implanted microphones and were getting information from their camera man who would film all their games (which was used for training purposes later on and was seen to be talking while he was filming...making notes for the video) of course at the time the Russian Legion were using Angels that had the infa red recievers for setting changes to be beamed across form Angel to Angel...very very short distance and alignment needed to be pretty accurate for it to work. If you took your post at face value then new rumours would start. If the background is known then it dissembles your post for facts.
Aftermarket boards can be Bluetooth enabled (if made that way) but since with a Bluetooth device you have to set the receiving device to accept the signal being sent and you have to press buttons each time it is accepted (the information) so it isn't going to happen in real life this isn't to say it can't be done but the steps to do this are long winded and will be very obvious to refs and spectators.

No promoter is going to step up to the plate and make a severe penalty...nearest we got was Jeremy Salms being banned (not for a marker cheat just plain cheating) and that lasted how long before he was back to paintball involved as a coach? Did Chris Lasoya receive anything other than a bit of bad press for the multiple shot mugging he did?

Promoters are too closely linked (or dependant on) to the companies that control paintball, of course that list of companies will be getting smaller depending on who the big takeover is the subject of.

The NPPL was originally set up as a players union to stop the Promoters taking too much of a say in what was done etc, now they are as close to how the Promoters they sought to control/bring into line ever were.

The NPPL have their robot and won't see there is another way after the $ investment in the product. Rule amendments have been annouced in a way that is a way of limiting things however it will bring up players who have no right being in the position to appear as good with the current technology now allows them to be. The main problem is that at least this thread recognises the fact that there is a different form of ramping ...that of a Ramping dwell which in turn increases the velocity...the NPPL and the PSP as the two major sides of the fence cannot agree that there is two distinct types of ramping. I personally think that ramping dwell is an accident waiting to happen but it is definately a case of it you can't beat them join them...in fairness settings are there to be able to limit the amount of dwell that is added and so remain under 300fps. Is a player going to do this? Very unlikely but the fact that they can is why this is sort of being glossed over to allow these settings to be used In the same way there are sttings to dial the bounces out not use that electonic. fault/phenomenon. Ramping shots although very similar to bounce in it's effect is a grey area that is being allowed in the US due to the inability of the robot, radar chrono guns etc to catch the cheats...and even then it depends on which circuit you play as to if it can be used.

Aftermarket and now some stock boards have these settings it is down to the player to choose if they set them in such a way as to infringe on safety or within the tournament/site rules...it is just that some of these boards are more covert in their settings than others...look at the advertising and disect from that what you need to. At least the Speedy chips have been dumped already but then that was stupid marketing to sell an over priced chip that was a cheat from the outset, it has generated the thoughts that all boards that have fine settings are cheater boards, no they are not they become cheater boards when the player alters the settings to get around the rules. Set the boards up correctly and you will have no issues with whichever tournament/site you play at. trusting the players to use these settings properly is another thing altogether. Afterall you can't sue a car maker because someone speeds...they (the driver/player) chose to do it.

The thinking that a promoter is going to grow some balls to stamp on these people is a pipe dream, a nice pipe dream but a dream all the same. Take this to Automags with an RT valve, runaway etc...it wasn't allowed for a long time (these new regulations may change this now) and how often do you see users asking how they should set their Automag to take advantage of this? A lot...is it correct...well no as it is pointed out nearly everytime but people still do it, they have made that choice to set the marker up so it does something out of the ordinary...ok I am going in circles now and this post has got way too long but that is the problem as there isn't a cut and dried answer to this problem all that has happened is that the genie is out of the bottle and the tournament/sites can't decide if it is a good genie or bad or how to effectively deal with it.

[magman007]

shockers, matrices too.

actually, you cannot ramp a spool valve marker in velocity. increasing the dwell does nothing to it. you need to physically up the imput pressure, or the lpr to make the marker fire at any faster velocity.

[REDRT]

Ramping velocity? Guess it is time to pitch the good ol' RT then. Over my chrono at home here that records your shot strings I've found RTs ramp alot. Setting the velocity at 280fps well under 300fps limit, it has increased to +325fps during rapid fire. Wow and it doesn't even have a board. Ramping velocity has been going on for years. Imagin what Zak's suba tanks to the RT does for velocity! :wow: I really think by asking the questions and wanting industry change in a major way, we essentually be cutting are own throats to!

[Lohman446]

Ramping velocity? Guess it is time to pitch the good ol' RT then. Over my chrono at home here that records your shot strings I've found RTs ramp alot. Setting the velocity at 280fps well under 300fps limit, it has increased to +325fps during rapid fire. Wow and it doesn't even have a board. Ramping velocity has been going on for years. Imagin what Zak's suba tanks to the RT does for velocity! :wow: I really think by asking the questions and wanting industry change in a major way, we essentually be cutting are own throats to!


I hope yours is abnormal... I have heard from others that the largest increase they have experienced was 10FPS - so you chronoed lower. It concerns me greatly if as great an increase as you describe is normal, I hope yours is a fluke. I am not concerend with the people who would chrono at 250 and go up to 300 (extreme example). I am concerned with the people who would chrono at 300 and go up to 350.

[MarkM]

RT's can be made to jump 25+ fps if the input pressure is too high...if the user knew this is open to discussion but it isn't abnormal for that kind of leap in fps.
I jumped an RT after it was used in a tournament where the field limit was 280...I got it to jump to 320, after I showed the user how to do it he managed a 330...he never set his input as high again.

[wageslave]

I was under the impression that with the RT/X-valve, the first shot was always "slow", and you have to follow a certain procedure to properly chrono...

A search on this forum for something like "chrono" and "valve" and maybe "rapid fire" and "shoot down" will result in a lot of threads on the topic.

[Lohman446]

RT's can be made to jump 25+ fps if the input pressure is too high...if the user knew this is open to discussion but it isn't abnormal for that kind of leap in fps.
I jumped an RT after it was used in a tournament where the field limit was 280...I got it to jump to 320, after I showed the user how to do it he managed a 330...he never set his input as high again.


Is that the reason for the 700PSI input pressure on them, and to sidetrack this dicussion, do you avoid "starving" a mag when only using a 700PSI input pressure?

[REDRT]

I hope yours is abnormal... I have heard from others that the largest increase they have experienced was 10FPS - so you chronoed lower. It concerns me greatly if as great an increase as you describe is normal, I hope yours is a fluke. I am not concerend with the people who would chrono at 250 and go up to 300 (extreme example). I am concerned with the people who would chrono at 300 and go up to 350.

No fluke. I've tryed it with more than one RT. But here is the thing. If you use a loose ball to barrel fit the ramping velocity is much less and it stays around that 10fps. My test was done with a tighter bore that I had the blow the the ball though with what I though as minimal force. Also if you tone down imput pressure so it doesn't shot as fast it helps out greatly. Ever notice when you shot the RT it starts out with the balls shooting so far and drop off at a given range, but when you really sweet spot it the balls seem to fly straighter with less drop off? The velocity is climing. The cool thing is when you chrono off it usually is just right where you set it. In reality being my RT is set for 290/295fps outdoor I suppose there has been times I've wapped a player at 325fps and more. I never broke anyones goggles or hoppers. So I guess the stuff can take it.

[MarkM]

Is that the reason for the 700PSI input pressure on them, and to sidetrack this dicussion, do you avoid "starving" a mag when only using a 700PSI input pressure?


It will vary slightly from RT to RT but in general you set the input within the ranges suggested and then start to "play" with it...if you know what you are doing you can jump all of them...if however you have dropped the input enough any leap will be under 300fps.

The chrono "procedure" of how to chrono an RT is a joke and you will pass the chrono 9 times out of 10 using that, do other things..perfectly do-able within a game situation and it will jump. How high depends on how high you have set the input. There isn't a one pressure suits all RT's answer, you have to fiddle and play around to discover where the figures are. Z-Man has covered this in several different ways on his website, some of the changes he has made are shortening of the parts but if you purely go on pressures you can avoid the leap..well you can't stop the leap but you can keep it within the game limits.

[REDRT]

Is that the reason for the 700PSI input pressure on them, and to sidetrack this dicussion, do you avoid "starving" a mag when only using a 700PSI input pressure?

Accually recommended is 600-800psi. Before lvl10 650psi was it for me. Chop city. With lvl10
skys the limit. Normally running at 1000psi.

[trains are bad]

actually, you cannot ramp a spool valve marker in velocity. increasing the dwell does nothing to it. you need to physically up the imput pressure, or the lpr to make the marker fire at any faster velocity.

Why, then, does the shocker get FSDO when the bolt sticks decreasing the actual dwell? And why does my predator board have a feature to compensate for this by increasing the dwell on the first shot, bringing the velocity back up?

Ecockers could also conceivably have velocity ramping through software.

[68magOwner]

i am playing a tourney this saturday, i know for a fact there are multiple markers on opposing teams with ramping BPS and FPS (all of my teams markers are legal, well, mabey a lil hidden bounce here and there, but, legal for the most part) now, the league is trying to crack down on ramping, and say they are going to check markers, but, they have no robot, this means potentially showing chips all the time if you happen to have quick fingers, and even then, there are plenty of chips that appear stock that ramp in BPS or FPS, so, i am interested to see how these rules will be enforced.

[REDRT]

It will vary slightly from RT to RT but in general you set the input within the ranges suggested and then start to "play" with it...if you know what you are doing you can jump all of them...if however you have dropped the input enough any leap will be under 300fps.

The chrono "procedure" of how to chrono an RT is a joke and you will pass the chrono 9 times out of 10 using that, do other things..perfectly do-able within a game situation and it will jump. How high depends on how high you have set the input. There isn't a one pressure suits all RT's answer, you have to fiddle and play around to discover where the figures are. Z-Man has covered this in several different ways on his website, some of the changes he has made are shortening of the parts but if you purely go on pressures you can avoid the leap..well you can't stop the leap but you can keep it within the game limits.

Yep :)

I like to shoot fast. To keep it in the limits I use looser bore size. Loose some accuracy, but velocity isn't spiking. Want to be a sniper. I use tighter bore and way less imput psi to keep it under. In a game that I can, I use high imput pressure and tighter bore. :ninja: One thing you can't change is inconsistant paint. Get a sweld one and it will spike the velocity everytime. Murphys law it usually happens at the chrono station.

[phantomhitman]

actually, you cannot ramp a spool valve marker in velocity. increasing the dwell does nothing to it. you need to physically up the imput pressure, or the lpr to make the marker fire at any faster velocity.
i call bs on this one. there is ramping fps for a matrix. i have absolutley no clue how the gun works, or what board-chip they were using, but i have seen a trix first hand ramp in velocity. we were at the chrono and he was consistently shooting between the 275-280 range, he changed settings and then ripped a stream off and it went to 320 fps. He then changed the settings back and consistently shot at the original 275-280. explain that for me?! maybe his gun was messing up?! :confused:

[GT]

two issues here:

1. I honestly don't think you see that greater distance fired when upping the velocity 10-20fps. I have a hard time telling the difference bewteen 275 and 295. The only difference I can see is anything lower than 270 and you have alot more bounces. Anything above that, and I would love to see the evidence, is little more than internet kiddie debate.

2. If I am not mistaken, most newer i.e. poorly desgined markers, use first hot shot to counter FSDO caused by bolt stock or a crappy/leaky lpr.

Sorry but maybe someone needs to do some sciencetific tests on what kind of advantge one gets from running 300 v 320fps.

[phantomhitman]

in every local tourney, as well as acts tourney, i have been to the velocity was 285 or lower. i would think the difference between 285 and 320 to be significant, especially if some guy pulls a run through and shoots you 5-6 times. I would much rather be hit by 285 than 320 wouldnt you?
the effect that does abs (anti bolt stick) in trixs (which is increased dwell i believe) also kicks in during ramping velocity.

[Korrosion]

i call bs on this one. there is ramping fps for a matrix. i have absolutley no clue how the gun works, or what board-chip they were using, but i have seen a trix first hand ramp in velocity. we were at the chrono and he was consistently shooting between the 275-280 range, he changed settings and then ripped a stream off and it went to 320 fps. He then changed the settings back and consistently shot at the original 275-280. explain that for me?! maybe his gun was messing up?! :confused:
Warning: long post explaining most of what I know about spool valves.
In a matrix with a LPR the recomended way to set the lpr is to turn it up all the way so that the solenoid gets the same pressure that the dump chamber gets. Then use the inline reg to adjust your fps. Then start turning the lpr down until the fps jumps + or - 5 or so with each shot. Then turn it back up a little (1/4 turn)

With the lpr turned up all the way you are ensuring the dump valve fully empties on every shot. As you start turning the lpr down and keep the front pulse the same the dump chamber comes closer to not empting. At the point where you start getting fps jumps the dump chamber is emptying completly on some shots, and almost completly on others. This is what causes the fps swings. You turn the lpr up that 1/4 turn to ensure the dump chamber empties all the way, on every shot.

If you chrono with a front pulse of X, and set the lpr the way I described, then the dump chamber will empty completly with every shot. At that point making X=X+Y will not change anything because the dump chamber is already completly empty by the time X has elapsed.

There are ways to set your lpr, and abs settings to cheat a little but doing so makes you lose overall performance on your "normal" shots.

[magman007]

Why, then, does the shocker get FSDO when the bolt sticks decreasing the actual dwell? And why does my predator board have a feature to compensate for this by increasing the dwell on the first shot, bringing the velocity back up?

Ecockers could also conceivably have velocity ramping through software.


Id assume your talking about something like ABS for the matrixes, anti bolt stick. The bolt sticks because it sits there long enough, and the grease ceases up a bit. by increasing the dwell, it makes the bolt motion more "fluid" and yes, it increases the average fps by a few, but not enough to be considered ramping.

there was a huge discussion about it, flipflops interviened (on pbn) and explained why the ramping velocity idea for the matrix is impossible, at most, if you run a dwell of 40 (your gun will be excrutiatingly slow at this point) that yes, you van get a max of 10 more fps.

you have to think of the matrix and shocker logically. Dumpchamber, pressurized the same every shot... there is no way to make this air have any more pressure, resulting in pretty consistant shots. only way to get more pressure, is to up the reg, and since our regs arent electronically controlled, there is no way to really getmore fps that will matter.

the lpr puts air into the solenoid, which moves the bolt. this air doesnt really get added to the mix, but it just opens and closes the valve. thr faster the bolt opens, the faster the air escapes, resulting in faster velocity. the slower it opens, the slower the air escapes resulting in lower velocity.


do you understand why it is impossible to ramp in velocity a matrix or a shocker?


^^^^^ explained it much better than i could lol

[phantomhitman]

thank you very much magman and korrosion!! :hail: i now understand how my dm5 works! then what caused such a high velocity spike on this guys trix? could a bad reg be the cause...maybe creeping up during shooting?
and if will, aka flipflop, says its impossible then i belive him :hail: thanks for actually taking the time to explain how the trix works.

[Korrosion]

thank you very much magman and korrosion!! :hail: i now understand how my dm5 works! then what caused such a high velocity spike on this guys trix? could a bad reg be the cause...maybe creeping up during shooting?
and if will, aka flipflop, says its impossible then i belive him :hail: thanks for actually taking the time to explain how the trix works.
Could have been a creeping reg. There are ways (which I won't post here) to make a trix shoot hotter then at the chrono. They are possible but not going to give good performance.

[athomas]

If you took your post at face value then new rumours would start. If the background is known then it dissembles your post for facts.

I only threw forward a hypothetical situation that could happen.

The example of the Russian Legian is not an incident I even thought about. I actually never even thought about the bluetooth technology or calling in plays by headsets.

I am an electronics system designer. I could easily build or enhance a board that would accept radio transmitted data. This would be a hypothetical scenario of course, but it does eminate from information I did get from someone in the industry. I'm not saying it was done, but it could have been done and could be done quite easily. So, industry has to put something in place to deter it use in the future.

[hitech]

I am concerned that the same "we'll figure it out when it's an issue" when the rumors of its use are already floating around attitude will put us in a very bad spot at some point. I would hate to think, that five years from now we could say, "well ramping velocity, as long as its no more than 30 FPS is ok, because we can't stop people who are already doing it".

I'm afraid that we all already there. The current focus is on bps, but that is only because it is much easier to detect by the average player. It is slowly becoming obvious to everyone that it is almost impossible to ensure electronic markers are following the rules. If we don't do something "ourselves" we may find that the few insurance companies left will stop allowing electronic markers. The situation is out of control. How long it takes to "blowup" is anyone's guess.