NEW Smart Parts Midlevel Low Price Marker

[crewbe]

just saw this on Badlands site. Smart Parts just released a new Mid/High end marker at a low price $300.00us. operates like a shocker but with a new noid, breekbeam eyes, and a new board with diff modes of fire. bodys are aluminum are covered in hard plastic covering.


check it out
http://www.badlandspaintball.com/aboutus/ion_firstlook.html

[nirvana1234]

http://www.smartparts.com/Tiles/F/Ion.jpg

[yakitori]

I thought they already had midlevel lowend guns........shockers and imps. :P

[Vanced]

Doesn't look too awful bad... But I'll wait and see how they durable they are and actually shoot & feel before passing any judgement... Standard paintball product curve... more gun for less money... BUT ...

The bigger question... who is going to be first person to have a kid ask about his mag...

"Hey is that an ION?" :rolleyes:

[Banshee23]

The plastic makes them look pretty cheesy. And why does this marker suddenly have break-beam eyes but their flagship $1000+ marker still has reflective? I really just don't get SP at all...

[Jack & Coke]

http://junglist.org/2005/paintball/ion/

http://junglist.org/images/gallery/main.php/download/3958-2/IonBlue2.jpg
http://junglist.org/images/gallery/main.php/download/3953-2/IonBlack2.jpg
http://junglist.org/images/gallery/main.php/download/3968-2/IonRed2.jpg
http://junglist.org/images/gallery/main.php/download/3962-1/IonCustom.jpg
http://junglist.org/images/gallery/main.php/download/3973-2/IonYellow2.jpg

[Korrosion]

And its made of "the same rugged aluminium as the shocker and impulse". Yeah, the impulse is made from velveta strength al. I've seen so many imp feed necks strip out... :mad:

[Jack & Coke]

from:http://www.pbnation.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=336



------------------------
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
------------------------
February 10, 2005


Smart Parts Inc.
100 Station St.
Loyalhanna, PA 15661

smartparts.com


Smart Parts is pleased to announce the public release of its newest marker, the Ion. The first $299, high-end paintball marker. We're proud to have produced a paintball marker like no other. The Ion was built to be the marker for anyone who loves the game: simple to maintain, easy to use, designed for winning. It takes abuse like a rental gun, but throws paint with the best of them. You'll have the accuracy, range and rate of fire the Pro's enjoy for just a little more money than most entry level markers. The days of having to spend tons of cash to get what you want are over.

------------------------
ION FEATURES
------------------------

-- 17 balls per second semi-auto rate of fire with 3 shot burst, full auto and our Rebound firing mode.

-- Break-beam Vision eyes: Reliable and durable, the eyes are mounted on a separate board for perfect alignment.

-- Improved ball detents: Approximately 10 times the service life of current detents.

-- Great efficiency: Expect a reliable 1000-1400 shots from a 68ci, 4500psi bottle without any modifications.

-- The trademark accuracy and range you expect from Smart Parts.

-- Body Kits: A first for paintball. High-end aluminum internals are protected by composite shells--allowing you to instantly change the color or look of your body. Tired of blue? Switch to red. Or black. Or yellow. The Ion comes in four colors--and there are more body styles in the works...

-- Impulse barrel and feed tube threads: Take advantage of the upgrades you may already have.

-- Stock feed tube with O-ring seals: Fits a wider range of hoppers than most guns in this price range.

-- Tools: 1/8" Allen wrench is all you need for primary disassembly--and it’s included, along with trigger and velocity adjustment wrenches and a handy parts kit.

-- Reliability: The Ion was engineered to stand up to the demands of professional players. And it will outlast what used to be considered high end. The Ion shoots like a Pro--straight out of the box--and won't break down the minute you get it home.


------------------------
GO BUY ONE
------------------------

The Ion will begin shipping on Friday, February 11th and we are more than ready to send one to you. To order the Ion, or for more information, please contact a Smart Parts Authorized Dealer or visit www.smartparts.com.

[Jackel411]

Wow.. just when I though the industry couldnt make a gun uglier than the proto... wow...

If you ask me the sudden price drop , and break beam eyes and low cost screams two things...

1) OH CRAP!!!! ADAM!!! Were loseing market share im the low and high end market!! The impulse isnt selling and nobody wants to buy our high end stuff.... ( insert Dr. Evil voice ) Calm down Billy.. I have this plan to take over the world we will sue every one and create choas!!! Adam... weve done that already..... (dr E again ) Crap then.. uhhh billy rally the R and D department make us a new crappy gun and make it plastic!! ( all ) MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

And

2) They need to make a plastic gun so they can *** ream you on repairing it..

[quik]

It looks completely plastic in those pictures.

"interesting" though

[Chronobreak]

i love how p-ball news spreads soo fast.

soon as something is out the whole online community knows and its on every forum. :rofl:

i thought it resembled a mag at first as well as a shocker.

looks are ok..other than bodies im not sure how customizeable itl be (foregrips etc)
but for $300 ..n not too shabby

now if i was starting would i want this or that new gun that runs on abtteries? :cool:

this could be the newb gun for 05.

--edit
-- The trademark accuracy and range you expect from Smart Parts. :rolleyes:

[WARPED1]

I thought they already had midlevel lowend guns........shockers and imps. :P
Don't be an idiot just because you don't like SP. Thier legal issues may suck, but the guns are top notch.

[space_weazel_45]

I think it looks ok, I think the idea if being able to change colors on the fly is an interesting one, and depending on how it feels, I may pick a used one up if it feels anything like the shocker. I miss the old trusty shoe box but the 03 Ii fiddled with was neet, although not a "shocker"

[alooney11]

looks pretty neat, i think it will sell very well.

[Lohman446]

HOLY :cuss:

Is that a spool valve, break beam eye, electronic marker with rebound for $300

[Carbon]

to the bitter disdain of most.....

smart parts will make mad $$$

[Jack & Coke]

At $299, this may be the next Dragun... an entry player's (with low budget) dream gun that is both affordable and comes with an electro trigger. :clap:

[Target Practice]

That is the the UGLIEST piece of :cuss: ever to grace ANY field.

[Pballwizz]

And, I dunno if anyone noticed, but it has Rebound Mode. Which I believe is SP Terms for Ramping.

[Lohman446]

I did notice... I tried to convince the field/store I play at to order a couple so I could look at them... and might buy one just to have. Folks, if this uses the proven spool valve - has eyes, has rebound firing mode - well with rebound who cares what the trigger is like.

[Target Practice]

And, I dunno if anyone noticed, but it has Rebound Mode. Which I believe is SP Terms for Ramping.

You know, this is retarded. No KID that can afford a 300 gun should have the ability to rail on it at...what? 25 bps? 30? This breaks the pattern of performance being "directly proportional" to price.

Oh well, it's retarded, and IMO, you are retarded if you have this in your gear bag.

[WARPED1]

I see my new marker!

[Lohman446]

I see my new marker!


And here I regretted selling my Shocker.. agreed

[Pballwizz]

Come on, they Used to sell DM4 and Timmy Ramping CHIPS...Yes CHIPS...for 300. I dont care if a gun has ramp, because most of the people who can afford it, are high level tourney ballers. Now were gunna have little kids everywhere, woods, speed, whatever, with ramping guns for the price of a high end spyder.

[Mr. Mouse]

i still rather have my shocker sft then that, even tho its inovative and cool, im surprise its that low of a price, id buy that over a impulse but not over a shocker sft, and nerves forget about them i think there ugly as hell, but i think thats neat

[txaggie08]

be nice if we could get something this cheap on the quality level of a shocker or impulse. of course people woud still call it a newb gun cause it only costs three hundred and not a grand plus

[Outbreak]

Great efficiency: Expect a reliable 1000-1400 shots from a 68ci, 4500psi bottle without any modifications.



Really? Thats great efficiency?


That's better efficiency than any "Rogue mag" you may have in stock.... sit down.


$284.99 (Punisherspb) for a gun with those features?? I'll buy 2!

[yakitori]

Don't be an idiot just because you don't like SP. Thier legal issues may suck, but the guns are top notch.

I wasnt being sarcastic. Impulse is a low/mid end electric. :rolleyes:

I could care less about SP law suits, I dont like thier guns.

SHockers nowadays are selling hella cheap. They are decent guns, but not worth the Pricetag IMO.

I dont think I will be rushing to the store to buy the ION. thats just my opinion

[chairman_mao]

I don't know if they brushed the aluminium or if it's plastic/carbon fiber but in those pics they look kinda cheap. Not that is gonna stop anyone from buying one look at Spyders those are still fying off the shelf. Who knows how they'll do probably pretty well for all the aforemetntioned reasons (i.e. breakbeam eyes, spool valve, rebound). I know I won't be getting one, not hatin on SP just don't do the whole electro thing

[Lurker27]

Have some vision.

Mags do not have interchangable bodies. That's a ridiculous overstatement...I doubt the skin thing will catch on, but it HUGELY opens up customization from a "milling" standpoint.


A maxflo, breakbeam eyes, ramping, 25g switch, spool valve marker for 300?

I hope you all continue to hate on it, so it's price drops and I can tinker with it. It's a potential killer IMO.

[CrimsonGhost]

Hmm...Looks interesting...and at that price ...why not pick 1 or 2 up and see what they are like?
I think I just found what I can trade a few of the extra markers I have laying around for.;)

[tyrion2323]

What's going to stop someone from simply removing the polymer cover, buffing the aluminum body and then anodizing it? Even if you have to get eye covers, it will end up looking pretty darn close to a shocker.

I might consider buying one, as they are dirt cheap, but I'll want to see/hear some reviews of them as well as see about what's UNDER the polymer.

Also, the polymer grip frame and ASA doesn't suit me, but those can be replaced, presumably.

[Athius]

Looks cool and the idea of just changing the shell body or exoskeleton is a cool idea no more re-annoin. And finally SP is using break beam eyes.


Hmm when my brother sees this i think he'll buy one lol



Everyone: say good bye to the impulse.

[BigEvil]

to the bitter disdain of most.....

smart parts will make mad $$$

Smart Parts obviously has a marketing dept. Eventhough I am less than impressed with this abomination of a paintball gun, I think that it will fly off of the shelves. A wanna-be shocker for $300.

All of the noobs with Tippys and Spyders will be able to convince mommy and daddy to spend $300 a lot faster than $1000.

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

Grip frame looks like a polymer. I wonder if the body is extruded or diecast similiar to Tippmans. Looks to be powdercoated, assuming it can perform, I predict huge sales for SP, and to be honest if it is all it says it is for 300 then...well I might even buy one.

Az

[tyrion2323]

Smart Parts obviously has a marketing dept. Eventhough I am less than impressed with this abomination of a paintball gun, I think that it will fly off of the shelves. A wanna-be shocker for $300.

All of the noobs with Tippys and Spyders will be able to convince mommy and daddy to spend $300 a lot faster than $1000.

What makes it an abomination? Have you shot one?

Didn't think so.

[Lohman446]

Just off the phone with SP

It is a spool valve, though different than the Shocker

The Shocker will not be switching to break beam eyes - though these work "pretty good" you judge that one.

I'm impressed... I should have asked about adjustable trigger but did not...

[andreb]

wow... even thouh I don't agree with their legal tactics I have to say that this really has the potential to allow players that were not "tournament equiped" to enter the torney scene.

Of course we all have to wait to see how it shoots and more importantly if it will be a rugged marker (I might be wrong but there are simply way too many Shockers going down all around me)

Anyway, I'm anxiuos to see the effect this will have on the industry and I hope soemone buys one quickly so I can shoot it.

[Jack & Coke]

http://www.badlandspaintball.com/aboutus/ion/ion_yellow.jpg
http://www.badlandspaintball.com/aboutus/ion/ion_bodies.jpg
http://www.badlandspaintball.com/aboutus/ion/graham_ion.jpg
http://www.badlandspaintball.com/aboutus/ion/trevor_ion.jpg
http://www.badlandspaintball.com/aboutus/ion/billy_ion.jpg




I was lucky to be one of the privileged few to know in advance about the ION. In fact, I was one of the very few who got to see this new marker, let alone shoot it, before it was made public. All I can can say is "wow." This marker is going to change paintball as we know it.

Smart Parts has done something very new. They've introduced a marker that has modular capabilities and that can be accessorized like you would a cell phone. The ION is a metal marker encased in a customizable polymer exoskeleton. The first thought that came to my mind when I saw it was "this is like space marine armor for your marker." Very different, and very cool.

I have to stress this point - the ION is NOT a plastic marker! It is a rugged aluminum marker like the Shocker or Nerve, but with a tough polymer outer shell that will bring marker customization to a whole new level. Currently there are four colors being released - black, red, blue, and yellow.


You will be able to purchase the different shells and change the color of your marker on the fly. The switch is done easily with the removal of a couple of screws and takes less than five minutes to do.

Are you someone who tries to keep his marker in perfect condition? With the ION you no longer have to worry about it. Beat the crap out of your body and then buy a new shell. Who cares if it gets scratched? You can replace the shell so easily and they won't be expensive.

Now, what about performance? This is where the ION really shines - a magno-trigger that delivers 17 BPS with a break-beam anti-chop eye! Smart Parts introduces their first break-beam eye with this marker and get this - the eyes are housed on a board that slides into the body. Since the ION uses a break-beam eye, you no longer have to worry about the color paint you shoot! Switch modes from semi, rebound, to 3 shot burst and full auto (3 shot and full are capped at 10 BPS).


The ION uses a new solenoid designed by Smart Parts that allows increased air flow and it is extremely hard to clog with debris. I'm kicking myself for not taking pictures of the internals but the layout and design are really well engineered. The new solenoid works like a 3-way and when you look at it and the hosing that runs to it, you will see the similarity. The internals are simple and the marker has fewer orings than a Shocker. Like the Shocker, it comes with a hard-anodized aluminum bolt.


I shot four or five IONS all set up differently with different loaders. You can run the ION on CO2 as long as you have an anti-siphon. While it shot fine with CO2, it definitely shot better with compressed - which is to be expected.

Smart Parts has switched from anodization to powder coating for this marker. The stock barrel shoots well and looks tough. You'll know what I mean when you see it. The ION barrel takes Impulse threads.

The inline reg is completely new and is incredibly simple in its design, with only three or four internal parts. It also comes incased in a changeable rubber cover. The ION operates at a low 160-180 psi and is very efficient on air. You can expect 1000-1400 shots on a 68 4500. It runs on a 9v battery.

The removeable feed neck comes with an oring seal and uses the same threads as the Impulse.

The ION feels very much like a Shocker, only less sleek. It is still incredibly small and light, and it shot very accurately when I was shooting ropes of paint downrange.


What really sets this marker apart is the price. Get this - $380 CDN ($300 USD)! There is simply nothing in this class for this price. Expect to see a lot of these on the field this spring and summer ripping it up at 17 BPS. This kind of performance used to be limited to markers starting at about twice the price.

Badlands should have them in stock next week. Order one today because they are sure to go fast!

Thanks to Billy and Adam of Smart Parts for giving me a first look at this cool new marker. Thanks also to Daniel, the engineering genius behind the ION, for giving me a technical overview.

Trevor

[Lohman446]

Ordered one.. Ill tell you what its like next week

[trains are bad]

They should be selling the shocker for <500 IMO. Said so as soon as I saw them.

[SlartyBartFast]

The people complaining in this thread are proof positive that a HUGE proportion of paintball players are vain idiots waiting to part with their money for simple cosmetics.

This gun is metal internals with a composite shroud.

Reason it's cheap? Little to no machining.

THe reason there's always such fierce debate over which gun is best? All the twits who bought "high-end" expensive guns don't want to lose the self deception that 500$ of the price is for the milling and anno and doesn't affect performance one iota. :ninja:

[GT]

That's better efficiency than any "Rogue mag" you may have in stock.... sit down.

WTF kind of mag have you been shooting? I can easly get 1200 out of a 68 on a mag. If you are going to bash the mags effiecency then lets be honest about everyone elses performance.

Neet gun,
I dont think the exoskeleton is going to revolutionize paintball. Dunno for 300 bones I think I would still go for the '05 bko, now comes with pds and msrp for 349.99

[Banshee23]

You know, this is retarded. No KID that can afford a 300 gun should have the ability to rail on it at...what? 25 bps? 30? This breaks the pattern of performance being "directly proportional" to price.

Oh well, it's retarded, and IMO, you are retarded if you have this in your gear bag.

It says that it's limited to 17bps. Anyway, after reading the press release I guess the outer plastic body isn't such a bad idea as long as it doesn't cost an arm & a leg for new bodies. Actually this doesn't seem like such a bad marker if it can deliver on most of what is said.

[Evil Bob]

Just showed the above Ion add to 6 high school teenagers age 15 to 17 (my son just got home with some of his buddies to play halo II on xbox), all of which have played PB a couple of times. The one thing that caught their eye and all remarked on was "17 bps", "full auto" and "$300". That's all their cared about. Whether you hate SP or not, these things are going to fly off of the shelf, especially once they get some better looking shells for them.

Most noteable comment....

"Dude, its fugly." "Who cares, it does full auto, and you can buy 4 for what you paid for for your DM5."

-Evil Bob

[68magOwner]

Don't be an idiot just because you don't like SP. Thier legal issues may suck, but the guns are top notch.


not really, I do shoot an AKA marker (till after this weekend) but, i shot SP markers for a while (nice imp) now, the imp was preety nice, but, i wouldnt say top notch by any means, and IMO all the shockers i ahve used have been on a lower performance level than my imp was, also, the metal is very cheap and not nearly as durable as other markers (lots of stripped out threads, ect) also, dont even start about the ano SP threw on the shockers, common, it fades away from just normal play, thats not good. the plastic bodies are probably an improvement over the metal they are currently using. With that said, my lil brother wis looking for a new marker, and will probably be ordering one of these when he gets home from school, look like great markers for $300

[behemoth]

It looks completely plastic in those pictures.

"interesting" though

Dosent it?!?!

'twas thinking the same thing...

[Lohman446]

You know, this is retarded. No KID that can afford a 300 gun should have the ability to rail on it at...what? 25 bps? 30? This breaks the pattern of performance being "directly proportional" to price.

Oh well, it's retarded, and IMO, you are retarded if you have this in your gear bag.


LOL - Admit it, your just annoyed because this sucker has features of many high end markers. I see this going in a lot of tournament players bags as a great back-up marker.

Yeh, Im annoyed to, my DevilMag isn't here and I just ordered another marker for MUCH less than I paid for the DevilMag... but you know what, I am still going to be happy with the mag.

And, if you wonder how it will effect sales of other markers - I was trying to peice together a mag last night just to play with - only missing the valve.

[SlartyBartFast]

Neet gun, I dont think the exoskeleton is going to revolutionize paintball.

:rofl:

Dozens of PB Markers have been metal internals with a composite/plastic clamshell. Of course it's not a revolution.

But, changing a shell makes a whole lot more sence than the stupidity of buying numerous Mag bodies at 300$ a pop or being really inane and spending 200-300$ on stripping and re-annoing a marker.

Call me stupid, but I prefer to spend money on things that improve performance not perception.

[txaggie08]

You know, this is retarded. No KID that can afford a 300 gun should have the ability to rail on it at...what? 25 bps? 30? This breaks the pattern of performance being "directly proportional" to price.

Oh well, it's retarded, and IMO, you are retarded if you have this in your gear bag.

so essentialy your saying becasue theres a possibility someone just lowered the price of performance there retarded. Has paintball realy become that elitist dang. im sorry but i dont see why a gun that could rip, yet be a good gun for 300$ is retarded. personaly im sick and D*@% well tired of being told "your guns not "high end" cause it only cost XXX$". who gives a crap if its not proportional? maybe the proportion just changed, and the only thing railing against that is gonna accomplish is to try to keep it elitist. maybe if performance goes up with price down, people will start to focus on being good players instead of making there guns ungodly fast.........

[Virem]

From what i can tell the only "plastic" part of the gun is the body cover... the frame and reg and everything else is powdercoated aluminum. Id say if this gun out preforms a BKO it will be great. Ill tell you what, id rather have stock in SP then AGD, or any other paintball company for that matter.

[Chronobreak]

yes mags have interchangeable bodies but they are $. its probly a ncie thing for kiddos to change the bod on their gun like a cellphone for $25~ or so instead of spending $100+ for others.

as for it being spool valve..

it says plainly uses a noid(the new sp noid)

while i dont think this marker is going to revolutionize anything but it seems to be a welcome addition(till they start dropping like flies :p )

btw sp lawsuits aside they hoenstly dont make the highest end equipment nor use the best materials available. as with soem others ive seen stripped feednecks and screws etc etc. as well as noids blowing. I dislike sp busines practices but that has no relevancey on me disliking an oviously sub par product.

[WARPED1]

Yes, mags have interchangeable bodies that cost $150. The ION bodies are under $50 I believe.



as for it being spool valve..

it says plainly uses a noid(the new sp noid)


I fail to see your point, the Shocker has a 'noid, and uses a spool valve. The Matrices use a 'noid, and a spool valve....................

[BigEvil]

What makes it an abomination? Have you shot one?

Didn't think so.

It's a Stingray on steroids. No, didnt shoot one, don't plan on - but I bet I will be fixing plenty of 'em.


I wonder if B.E. can sue them for using plastic for a paintball marker?

[tyrion2323]

Let's all wait until this thing has been out for a while. If it sucks, then we'll know it. if it's okay, then it just means another option.

[Virem]

I wonder if B.E. can sue them for using plastic for a paintball marker?


LOLOLOL, i may like the idea of the gun... but that so owned :clap:

[tyrion2323]

It's a Stingray on steroids. No, didnt shoot one, don't plan on - but I bet I will be fixing plenty of 'em.


I wonder if B.E. can sue them for using plastic for a paintball marker?

It is nothing like a stingray. Find a single similarity. Yes, it uses a polymer shell, but the body itself is aluminum.

Again, they way i see it is that we shouldn't judge it until it's been out for a bit.

[Lohman446]

Sales pitch

"Spool valve, the same valve design theory that operates this DM5"
"If you scratch this part, or if you want to change color just $29.95 (GUESS)"
"Rebound firing mode, just like Strange uses in the NXL"
"Break beam eyes"
"299.95 - tank and hopper you're shooting for $400" (cheap tank, cheap hopper)



I ordered myself one just to have, and the store owner ordered several more.. these things are going to sell

[WARPED1]

It's a Stingray on steroids. No, didnt shoot one, don't plan on - but I bet I will be fixing plenty of 'em.


I wonder if B.E. can sue them for using plastic for a paintball marker?
It's not. It uses a metal body frame with polymer sleeve bodies which are easily replaced cheap.

[CoolHand]

The haters can say what they like, but I think you will see this marker take a lot of sales away from the other midrange markers.

AND, with the new 15 bps caps that are springing up all over, that extra $900 that you'll pay for a DM5 really is just for looks (since even if you could run it at 25 bps, you'd get DQ'ed).

Let me propose a secenario for you ---> Your team just started out, you have little money, but your game is good. You all drop 300 clams and pick one of these bad boys up. You face a team with markers that cost three times what yours did. . . . . . . . . You find yourself with a ZERO ROF disadvatage. $$ != speed != an advantage anymore.

Let that one digest for a while.

BTW, lets be honest here. To get 17 (or even 15) bps out of a Mag, you're going to spend durned near $500 on it. Assuming you will run HPA on either marker, that's still a $200 head start for the Ion, and it comes with a barrel (which will likely not be too bad), adding even further to the discrepency.

[Severe]

While the speed and break beam eyes wouldn't have been there, AGD could have done this a year ago!

If they would have just made a polymere double trigger frame with a metal trigger, reduced the cost of the X-valve and made it C02 compatible, and then made polymere bodies they very well could have set the standard for the sub $300 mechanical marker.

I remember having a discussion sometime back about making slide-on polymere bodies for the mag that would convert the body to a Tac body by sliding on a rail. That could have been applied to any number of variations.

I agree with anyone who says these things are going to sell like hotcakes.

[BigEvil]

While the speed and break beam eyes wouldn't have been there, AGD could have done this a year ago!

If they would have just made a polymere double trigger frame with a metal trigger, reduced the cost of the X-valve and made it C02 compatible, and then made polymere bodies they very well could have set the standard for the sub $300 mechanical marker.

I remember having a discussion sometime back about making slide-on polymere bodies for the mag that would convert the body to a Tac body by sliding on a rail. That could have been applied to any number of variations.

I agree with anyone who says these things are going to sell like hotcakes.


WORD.
This should be a wake up call for the entire PB industry. (IE: AGD)

[Quackman71]

This thing specs look great, 17bps, nice trigger, break beam eyes.
If it works like they promote it I would buy one. Its a good competitor for the 05 BKO.
These things will make SP lots of money.
Its just like video cards for computers, ATI vs. Nvidia, both want to have the top of the line best card so they can flaunt that they are the greatest. But its the midrange and mostly LOW END cards that make them the money. If these things shoot well and are reliable then I see SP rolling in the dough.

[SlartyBartFast]

It's a Stingray on steroids.

Based on that vacuous logic, I suppose Glocks are Stingrays on steroids too. :rolleyes:

Name one single advantage of having extra decorative metal on the mainbody.

[WARPED1]

The haters can say what they like, but I think you will see this marker take a lot of sales away from the other midrange markers.

AND, with the new 15 bps caps that are springing up all over, that extra $900 that you'll pay for a DM5 really is just for looks (since even if you could run it at 25 bps, you'd get DQ'ed).

Let me propose a secenario for you ---> Your team just started out, you have little money, but your game is good. You all drop 300 clams and pick one of these bad boys up. You face a team with markers that cost three times what yours did. . . . . . . . . You find yourself with a ZERO ROF disadvatage. $$ != speed != an advantage anymore.

Let that one digest for a while.

BTW, lets be honest here. To get 17 (or even 15) bps out of a Mag, you're going to spend durned near $500 on it. Assuming you will run HPA on either marker, that's still a $200 head start for the Ion, and it comes with a barrel (which will likely not be too bad), adding even further to the discrepency.
Truer words have not been spoken in this thread yet! YAAAAAAAAAY Coolhand! :clap: :dance: :cheers:

[tyrion2323]

This is simply speculation, but I think that this marker might improve sales for the BKO and Bushy.

Why? Well because up until now, to play in a high-end tournament you needed a 1000 dollar gun! (or so people tend to believe)

But if SP sells a $300 gun that rocks, it might turn people towards considering BKOs, Bushies, Omens, etc.

Just a thought. Might be wrong. Hope not.

[Lohman446]

So, how upset does anyone think Dave Youngblood is that SP put out a cheap - CHEAP spool valve marker - bet he didnt see this coming when he allowed them use of the spool valve.

[SlartyBartFast]

You know, this is retarded. No KID that can afford a 300 gun should have the ability to rail on it at...what? 25 bps? 30? This breaks the pattern of performance being "directly proportional" to price.

Oh well, it's retarded, and IMO, you are retarded if you have this in your gear bag.


Congratulations on the dumbest piece of illogic I've ever heard.

I guess it's stupid and retarded that we pay thousands less today for computers that are light years ahead in terms of performance compared to computers only a few years old. Hell, the first 286 machine in my house set my Dad's company back about $4000 dollars, the first 15lb "luggable" IBM with it's tiny screen even more.

[SlartyBartFast]

So, how upset does anyone think Dave Youngblood is that SP put out a cheap - CHEAP spool valve marker - bet he didnt see this coming when he allowed them use of the spool valve.

As long as he's still getting his royalties why the heck should he care?

[Creative Mayhem]

I'm not a big fan of SP... but this thing's features sound decent enough... now to see what the performance and real durability is like.

[txaggie08]

nice anology. glad im not the only one with a problem with that reasoning......

[WARPED1]

As long as he's still getting his royalties why the heck should he care?
Exactamundo! More true words!

[CoolHand]

This is simply speculation, but I think that this marker might improve sales for the BKO and Bushy.

Why? Well because up until now, to play in a high-end tournament you needed a 1000 dollar gun! (or so people tend to believe)

But if SP sells a $300 gun that rocks, it might turn people towards considering BKOs, Bushies, Omens, etc.

Just a thought. Might be wrong. Hope not.

I kind of agree, not so much that the Ion will drive people to the BKO or B2k5, but that the new rules will.

All the midrange, 15 bps+ capable markers, that are sub $450 will see a big boom in sales. DYE and SP will still sell the hard core super guns (that will have to detuned to 15 bps :rofl: ) to the paintball snobs, but the average Joe who would have bought an Imp and then upgraded four more times (to "keep up") will now be able to pick one and use it until it dies.

I think that's a good thing for paintball in general. The more people that come in who don't have the elitist attitude, the better it is for everyone. And it more or less goes without saying that this is a good thing for NPS and SP.

[Lohman446]

As long as he's still getting his royalties why the heck should he care?


The standard guess is that SP and Dye traded rights - no royalties - SP using the spool valve, Dye using electronics.

[SlartyBartFast]

The standard guess is that SP and Dye traded rights - no royalties - SP using the spool valve, Dye using electronics.

So, still, why should he care?

Unless the point might be that he'll be miffed because SP is likely to make a fortune with this approach.

[Lohman446]

So, still, why should he care?

Unless the point might be that he'll be miffed because SP is likely to make a fortune with this approach.

because SP just destroyed the "prestige" of the spool valve. Remember my comment on prestige marketting, its important to keep that prestige, and there was a certain prestige to the spool valve, be it well earned or not.

[CoolHand]

I don't think DYE really cares what happens in the sub $500 category.

Nothing they sell even scratches that market. They will continue to sell $1000+ markers, and people will continue to buy them.

All I see coming from this between them is a lot of arguing from DYE customers trying to justify the added expense of their purchase. DYE need do nothing different, players buy their markers 'cause they want them. How they justify that to themselves is not DYE's problem.

I doubt they'll even notice . . . . . . .

[SlartyBartFast]

because SP just destroyed the "prestige" of the spool valve. Remember my comment on prestige marketting, its important to keep that prestige, and there was a certain prestige to the spool valve, be it well earned or not.

"Prestige" marketing? :rofl:
What's the advantage to the company? Mass market has better profit potential.

[JAM]

There really is something to prestige marketing... In most high end products, you are paying a premium for the name/brand. you can usually get much more profit per unit sold. That being said, if you can sella whole bunch of moderately priced items, you'll make crap load of money too.

i think this gun really is revolutionary in terms of price/ performance. Think of it compared to most $300 guns and if it lives up to most of the marketing hype it will be awesome.

[Lohman446]

"Prestige" marketing? :rofl:
What's the advantage to the company? Mass market has better profit potential.


Depends how many units you intend to sell, are able to sell, and the market you aim for. Tell Porsche theres no money in prestige marketting. Even GM has toyed with the idea of a hand built super car from time to time. Think of any car that sells for 60K+ - there are a lot of things that are marketed on prestige and sell well, Mass marketing is profitable, no doubt, but don't discount the profit potential of other forms of marketting - sometimes your product and your company are better served seeking other niches beyond mass marketing.

[SlartyBartFast]

How they justify that to themselves is not DYE's problem.


Of course it's their problem. Thay want to make the justification for buying their products as easy as possible.

Otherwise, they lose sales...

[WARPED1]

Ferrari and thier Enzo is a prime example of prestige marketing........... it works.

[Lurker27]

Mags do have interchangeable bodies. And rails too.

Saying they dont is a ridiculous understatment...


Bah. That's like any other gun saying it....Do timmies have interchangeable bodies? Spyders? Shockers?

You know what I meant.

[WARPED1]

MSRP on replacement ION bodies= $29.99. Any other gun have that? I think not.

[la690]

For those of you ripping on the cheap grip frame...

http://www.paint-ball-gun-reviews.com/automag-standard-classic.jpg

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/adg94b.jpg

[tony3]

So much hate, the features that gun has are amazing for 300, no gun in that range has breakbeam eyes. Definitely an awesome gun. Great backup gun for people that can't afford another 1k+ gun

[68magOwner]

one has been ordered to my house (lil bro got one as soon as he got home, first batch of black, which is the first color to ship) so, i will have a review when it gets here, probably next weekend (ground shipping)

[SlartyBartFast]

MSRP on replacement ION bodies= $29.99. Any other gun have that? I think not.

Well, you COULD get Stingray bodies for less than that....

:rofl:

I still can't believe there are morons essentially arguing that paintball should remain an expensive sport....

[Southpaw]

Nice

[tyrion2323]

Bah. That's like any other gun saying it....Do timmies have interchangeable bodies? Spyders? Shockers?

You know what I meant.

No, lurker, he doesn't.

We've already had this conversation, and it's something that rogue and I (and you) will have to agree to disagree on...

[vonort]

WOW a plastic gun what a novel idea... wow.. nobody has ever tryed that before.. oh wait yes they did it was called a Splatmaster from NSG. and the ever popular Splatmaster Rapide... Wow.. SP just comes up with some of the greatest ideas.. :tard:

[Toxic Dave]

The difference is that the splatmaster and rapid were about a third the price of a Ion, and about a .001th of the features, accuracy or ROF.

SP has a great idea ths time, I don't care about the plastic stuff, fact is it's a sub 300 dollar spool valve marker. The concept is amazing, all it has to do is work and it'll be a winner.

dave

[Halliday]

This thing will fly off the store shevles. Great price and good features. Will it live up and perform........ ?

[tyrion2323]

I know we all dislike the plastic polymer body, but just think:

Aluminum replacements.

Customizable. Anodizable.

$45 raw or so.

Now that's a way to get all the ano-schemes you could ever want!

[WingMan13]

Love SP or not, They just made a tsunami in the industry. Every other company is going to have to keep up or loose $$$.

[vonort]

The difference is that the splatmaster and rapid were about a third the price of a Ion, and about a .001th of the features, accuracy or ROF.

SP has a great idea ths time, I don't care about the plastic stuff, fact is it's a sub 300 dollar spool valve marker. The concept is amazing, all it has to do is work and it'll be a winner.

dave


There is the key statement.. and being from SP I see that being a problem. :shooting:

[SlartyBartFast]

Ferrari and thier Enzo is a prime example of prestige marketing........... it works.

No it doesn't. If Ferrari only sold Enzo's they'd go bust. It's the cheap cars that finance the racing and keep the highend car lines going.

But, if you asked me whether I'd rather own Fiat or Ferrari, I'd choose Fiat. You'd be brain dead to choose Ferrari.

Why? FIAT OWNS Ferrari! And heck, GM owns a good chunk of FIAT.

And while Ferrari doesn't do badly, but then more money is made on merchandising than car sales, other "prestige" brands are HUGE money losers.

And Porche? Hardly the most profitable arm of the AUDI-VW conglomerate.

And hmm... Another "low-end" companies own "pretige" names and none the other way round. Ford owns Jaguar, and while the company is now named Daimler-Chrysler it was Chrysler that bought Daimler-Benz.

How many more real-world examples does everyone need to see that the path to success is from the bottom?

That's not to say you can't make a decent living selling to an upscale niche.

[tyrion2323]

There is the key statement.. and being from SP I see that being a problem. :shooting:

Yes, it's true that SP acted like douches. But so has WorrGames and WDP. So had NPS. Do you boycott all of their products as well?

Jacob

[Glickman]

Yes, it's true that SP acted like douches. But so has WorrGames and WDP. So had NPS. Do you boycott all of their products as well?

Jacob

thank you. :D


just about to say that.




anyway, noones thinking about the possibility of using these frames on mags?


i plan on getting one and comming up with some crazy bodies (powdercoating)

[barrel break]

Jesus, that is one good deal...
IF I had some extra cash, I'd sell the defiant I just bought (havent even received it yet), and buy one of those.
The black one isn't that bad looking, and it looks to have almost the same performance of a shocker. :headbang:

[Scott Hudnall]

Love SP or not, They just made a tsunami in the industry. Every other company is going to have to keep up or loose $$$.


AGREED! SP has certainly recognized that selling truck loads of less expensive markers is preferrable to selling a select number of high end markers. For all you non-business guys out there, it's the age old business model of volume-vs-mark up.

Sorry guys.....but there's not that many components to ANY of the paintball markers sold today to justify $1400+ for a marker.....there just isn't.....

[Banshee23]

Yes, it's true that SP acted like douches. But so has WorrGames and WDP. So had NPS. Do you boycott all of their products as well?

Jacob

He was replying to someone else's comment that all it has to do is work & it'll be a winner. Nothing about SP lawsuits or such. SP doesn't have the greatest rep for brand new guns working too good at first.

[REDRT]

If you like it or you don't, Smart Parts is amazingly on the ball. They are going to sell like hot cakes. What a great deal on tournament level marker for the limited budget.

[SlartyBartFast]

For all you non-business guys out there, it's the age old business model of volume-vs-mark up.

And many "top-end" paintball guns have neither volume nor mark-up to justify their business model. That's why AGD dropped the Xmag.

[Steelrat]

You get what you pay for. It sounds interesting, but if it truly performed like a high end gun then SP wouldnt be able to sell shockers and nerves, and they'd end up screwing themselves. I expect performance on par with the low end ICD guns. I certainly don't expect anything innovative.

What IS a great idea is the polymer body. They can come out with diffferent styles and colors, and it allows customization for playes who cant afford milled aluminum and anodization. It also lets you abuse it, yet keep it looking good by replacing the body.

Is it just me, or does the pace of development in the industry seem to be increasing?

[Lurker27]

breakbeam eyes as a part are less expensive than bouncers.

the use of bounce in low end is most likely due to the lack of necessity of a logic inverter.

[RogueFactoryKid]

Hmmm....Predator II board or an ion.....Something to ponder over.

[SlartyBartFast]

You get what you pay for.

A cute yet meaningless cliche/generalisation.

There's always a value/money calculation and higher priced is NOT always higher value.

Also, what are you "paying for". When you buy a 2$ cotton t-shirt for 25$ because it has you favorite logo on it, what exactly are your "paying for". Nothing but hype and image.

Performance and utility would be identical in that example.

Another example could be SubZero refrigerators. Worst service history in the business. In that case you're paying through the nose for WORSE performance and utility.

Now, if you want a marker that will last you a season (yet to be seen I know) and can shoot the 15bps limit. What "value" do you get in spending three times as much for a different marker?

Looks? Hype? Image? Yes.
Performance/utility? Unless you've shot the thing and have data to backup reliability claims you should keep your mouth shut until the data is out and you've tried it yourself.

And if you still fall back on the pretentious "It looks cheap." argument, then I have only one thing to say:

IT IS CHEAP! :rofl: :bounce: :dance:

[Igotu]

Kinda like what wgp did with the trillogy. They dont dominate the shevles but this is different it has potential.

[Glickman]

Hmmm....Predator II board or an ion.....Something to ponder over.


or a ion WITH a predator board :D

[BigEvil]

It is nothing like a stingray. Find a single similarity. Yes, it uses a polymer shell, but the body itself is aluminum.

Again, they way i see it is that we shouldn't judge it until it's been out for a bit.

Look boys and girls, even though I think this thing is going to be cheaply made, I still think its a great idea.

SP just created a whole new class of paintball gun.

This is has the potential to grab a giant chunk of that "pie" that some many people talk about. I also bet that this will be responsible for more companies going out of business than there lawsuits.

[Vanced]

What I said earlier... It's a great concept... We can debate about it's quality, durablity, and over all function later...

But the only thing I am worries me more and more about it the longer I think about it is... and what I doubt too many of use if were honest with ourselves is that...

There is going to be a whole lot of 17bps full auto going on at the local field .... That worries me... :(

Note: yeah it has always been out there before but never in this quick easy affordable out of the box fashion.... And we'll get to see if fears some around here hold of Full Auto causing lawsuits... maybe slay one of the biggest law suit beasts of the paintball world...

And I like the "Space Marine Armor" refernce for thoose to know what it means...

[RogueFactoryKid]

There is going to be a whole lot of 17bps full auto going on at the local field .... That worries me... :(

Only goes up to 10 bps in 3 shot and full auto.

[BigEvil]

A cute yet meaningless cliche/generalisation.

There's always a value/money calculation and higher priced is NOT always higher value.

Also, what are you "paying for". When you buy a 2$ cotton t-shirt for 25$ because it has you favorite logo on it, what exactly are your "paying for". Nothing but hype and image.

Performance and utility would be identical in that example.

Another example could be SubZero refrigerators. Worst service history in the business. In that case you're paying through the nose for WORSE performance and utility.

Now, if you want a marker that will last you a season (yet to be seen I know) and can shoot the 15bps limit. What "value" do you get in spending three times as much for a different marker?

Looks? Hype? Image? Yes.
Performance/utility? Unless you've shot the thing and have data to backup reliability claims you should keep your mouth shut until the data is out and you've tried it yourself.

And if you still fall back on the pretentious "It looks cheap." argument, then I have only one thing to say:

IT IS CHEAP! :rofl: :bounce: :dance:

You make some good points, but when it comes to fabrication and production, quality = $$$. Especially in a small industry like paintball, where the productions numbers are relatively low, and the mark ups are not nearly the same percent and other wholesale items.

TO get something machined to +/- ten thousanths it may cost you $100. TO get that same peice machines to +/- two thousanths, that may cost you $700. The numbers im using are hypothetical, but not unrealistic. What kind of tollerences could there possibly be on a $300 marker with the same features as a $900 one? What is the wholesale price of the same gun that retails for $300? I'm telling you now, major cost and corner cutting is going on here.

Then again, what the heck do I know? I still think its pretty damn cool.

[GT]

I am lost as to why people keep comparing agd to sp. Its kinda like comparing Kingman to PPS. agd makes on gun, that it. The sell only a few thousand a year, big guess. How many guns do you think sp sells in a year? Besides we all know a mag is a gun that you can play with the rest of your life.

Hell, as the features indicate, this gun is DISPOSABLE! Still a good deal for 3 bills. I agree with coolhand the guys looking to break into the tourney's for cheap are starting to get alot of good choices.

[trevorjk]

So much hate, the features that gun has are amazing for 300, no gun in that range has breakbeam eyes.

pmi evo?

[REDRT]

This little baby is going to set the rest of the industry on its collective ear. Might bankrupt AGD. Get a real Electronic tournament class marker for less money than an old RT. Could happen. If it works and works good there is going to be alot of them sold. It will bring many more under the Smart Parts Flag. Putting Smart Parts on top. Here I thought they were dumb. :rolleyes:

[Beemer]

This is from Jack and Coke post #40


Now, what about performance? This is where the ION really shines - a magno-trigger that delivers 17 BPS with a break-beam anti-chop eye! Smart Parts introduces their first break-beam eye with this marker and get this - the eyes are housed on a board that slides into the body.Switch modes from semi, rebound, to 3 shot burst and full auto (3 shot and full are capped at 10 BPS).

Full and burst are capped at 10 so where does 17bps come from????

[Glickman]

This is from Jack and Coke post #40



Full and burst are capped at 10 so where does 17bps come from????

17 bps semi (not that many people can reach that high without bounce anway :rolleyes: )

[trevorjk]

This is from Jack and Coke post #40



Full and burst are capped at 10 so where does 17bps come from????t

take most guns that have modes now adays, just like spyders, and angels. ramping, full auto and the such are all usually capped at a lower BPS then regular semi Auto. so the 17bps is the Cap for semi auto.

[tony3]

pmi evo?

I stand corrected. How about no non-blowback gun without break beam eyes in that price range.

[REDRT]

I am lost as to why people keep comparing agd to sp.

Here is a comparison. Smart Parts is doing something currently. AGD hasn't done much in years. Sad, but true. I would rather all this excitement be for AGD's totally new marker, but it isn't. Maybe they will put down the coffie mugs and donuts and get to work soon. Smoke break is over boys and gals.

[SAW]

That ION looks like crap. The features better be good, that specs seem alright on paper.

[WingMan13]

Internals anyone?
http://img223.exs.cx/img223/7272/scan00019kq.th.jpg (http://img223.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img223&image=scan00019kq.jpg)

[Glickman]

That ION looks like crap. The features better be good, that specs seem alright on paper.

powder coated guns tend to look worse in pictures, more like plastic. the only part i dont like is the body, which i plan to modify quite a bit



but you know what would be really cool?

*COUGH* *COUGH* KARTA BODY *COUGH*

[68magOwner]

This is from Jack and Coke post #40



Full and burst are capped at 10 so where does 17bps come from????

rebound :rolleyes:

[WARPED1]

There is the key statement.. and being from SP I see that being a problem. :shooting:
Thier guns work, except for the frigging idiots who can't leave well enough alone, and adjust the heck out of thier marker! I've oened 2 SFT's, 4 4x4's, 3 Impulses in my career. NONE of them ever failed to work properly. I t will work fine.....just don't fix whats not broken.

[WingMan13]

http://www.badlandspaintball.com/ab...on_badlands.avi

[Vanced]

If it's posted I haven't seen it ?

How is it threaded... I would like to guess cocker...

But I wouldn't put it past SP to try and make money back selling "ION" freak backs ... :rolleyes:

[SpecialBlend2786]

I think its freakin great. I almost started regretting spending the money to get a Dark iR3. But then i realized that in a few months every other kid will be shooting one of these...

SP is gonna make money. Hopefully all the other companies step up to the plate and start competing. How cool would it be to see a $400 Angel.

[WARPED1]

How is it threaded... I would like to guess cocker...
:
Impulse threads.

[magman007]

the true copmparison to the dm5, shocker sft, etc etc, is really a moot point. you cant honestly think for the money going into this, that the marker will be as high quality as these other markers? its like comparing a spyder to a timmy, the spyder is obviously of a less quality build than the timmy. it will be a good marker, for a good price, but the quality of the build will not be up there, the care will not be taken. which worries me, because sp already incorporates poor metal into their markers

[BD_Paintball]

i think this is a cool gun. i bet it will perform good and for the price you cant go wrong. I think this gun will replace the imp sooner or later. i would buy one of these once i get a review of some sort, or a video

[blitz826]

looks nice i think i might buy 1 after i see 1 in person

[Halliday]

From the parts pdf....
Is the foregrip/reg called the "regasm"?

:tard:

[Lohman446]

TO the tolerance issues - a marker not going to anno may be easier to get to close tolerances than one that is. Recall all the anno issues TK had with X-mags and how many batches were delayed. You may find this to work better as for tolerances - recall what Coolhand has said in the past about the tolerance issues from polishing - so you can all get over the inheritent tolerance issue... now SP and tolerances - while the spool valve uses a lot of O-rigns on it to make up for tolerance issues. O-rings to make up for tolerance differences... would that be like Level ten spacers??

TO the looks - is it performance or looks we are after?

Ill judge it next week, when I get mine

[gc82000]

I will pass on this gun.

[slade]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
------------------------
February 10, 2005


Smart Parts Inc.
100 Station St.
Loyalhanna, PA 15661

We're proud to have produced a paintball marker like no other. The Ion was built to be the marker for anyone who loves the game: simple to maintain, easy to use, designed for winning. It takes abuse like a rental gun, but throws paint with the best of them.
sounds like a mag to me.


You'll have the accuracy, range and rate of fire the Pro's enjoy for just a little more money than most entry level markers. The days of having to spend tons of cash to get what you want are over.
...
-- The trademark accuracy and range you expect from Smart Parts.
i refuse to even consider buying a marker from any company that advertises range without mentioning spin, especially twice. and accuracy is more dependant on the paint, it is shot to shot velocity consistancy that matters as far as the gun is concerned. and that is probably the same or WORSE on this marker than any other one. It is just pathetic that i seem to know MORE about engineering and accuracy and range than a whole company. or do they just base their marketing off the ignorance of their customers? are they targeting the uninformed, because no one with any knowledge in this area would consider buying this marker?


-- 17 balls per second semi-auto rate of fire with 3 shot burst, full auto and our Rebound firing mode.
oh great, so theyre relying on ramping again to sell their markers.


-- Break-beam Vision eyes: Reliable and durable, the eyes are mounted on a separate board for perfect alignment.
sounds good, but im a bit concerned about the quality.


-- Body Kits: A first for paintball. High-end aluminum internals are protected by composite shells--allowing you to instantly change the color or look of your body. Tired of blue? Switch to red. Or black. Or yellow. The Ion comes in four colors--and there are more body styles in the works...
i guess thats an attraction for newbs, a good selling strategy, but personally i would rather have a well built, quality, plain black body than cheap plastic shells to hide the poor milling job, and (i assume) to cut costs by removing the need for anodization. but, anodization makes the metal stronger and more resistant to wear, so wouldnt this result in quicker and more severe internal wear?


-- Impulse barrel and feed tube threads: Take advantage of the upgrades you may already have.
an impulse costs ~$500. this marker $300. how many people would be moving from an impulse to this?


-- Reliability: The Ion was engineered to stand up to the demands of professional players. And it will outlast what used to be considered high end. The Ion shoots like a Pro--straight out of the box--and won't break down the minute you get it home.
Its a shocker. for $300. with break beam eyes. its partially plastic. i have heard MANY issues with sp markers, design issues, quality control, wearing, etc., that retail for $700-1000. something tells me that if the cost of a marker like that is MORE than cut in half, it will be VERY unreliable.



------------------------
GO BUY ONE
------------------------
...and thats supposed to convince me how?

I forsee MANY quality issues with this marker, its a $700 marker (that had issues itself) that was cheapened down. unfortunately (IMO) i think this will sell well to newbies, which i guess was what SP was hoping for.

For those of you that took the time to read this, thank you. i probably repeated things, but i havent as of yet read through the whole thread. time to go do that :ninja:

[pump]

"very efficient on air. You can expect 1000-1400 shots on a 68 4500."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA HA

well compared to the shocker and imp is it

so what would that make of Vikings Excals and Cyborgs????
super duper efficienct

[dj89]

Dose any one remeber the freak tip and hammer? For 300 i think i may do it. :)

[Glickman]

Its a shocker. for $300. with break beam eyes. its partially plastic. i have heard MANY issues with sp markers, design issues, quality control, wearing, etc., that retail for $700-1000. something tells me that if the cost of a marker like that is MORE than cut in half, it will be VERY unreliable.



unforunitly, thats because you need common sense to maintain paintball guns. alot of newbies buy impulses and shockers not knowing what they are doing. ive had a soleniod go on my shocker (just the o-rings really) but all it takes is a little common sense. Ive had an imp thats like a rock; lube before i play, and ive only had to replace the reg o-rings this month, after about 3 1/2 years.

the only plastic parts is the body shroud. machining a aluminum body wouldnt be hard to do, i thought i saw they it is held in by screws, so it would not be difficult . (although not saying ALL that much, but theres a reason that the military is now using composite bodies in their weapons, ie. xm8)



I forsee MANY quality issues with this marker, its a $700 marker (that had issues itself) that was cheapened down. unfortunately (IMO) i think this will sell well to newbies, which i guess was what SP was hoping for.



we shall see. :D if im not hit by a bolt of lightning in the next 30 seconds, im buying it, and ill post a full review including videos (it would come by monday) *runs fast!!!*

[mag88888]

people, stop arguing about how he dont like SP. its a great idea, definitely. AGD couldve, shouldve done this. if we had a gun like the ION, we could backup our sales with the x mag. in fact, we should do that. i hope AGD is hiding something and BAM new AGD gun. congrats to SP for the idea, but congrats for being such dicks for sueing AGD.

[pump]

congrats for SP lieing saying that 1000-1400 shots is very efficient

[txaggie08]

theres an awful lot of conjecture about this gun being low quality for noone having one yet. i hate to say it but those 1500+ dollar guns floating around......im willing to bet they didnt cost nearly that to make. the best case scenario with this gun is its simply cheaper to produce, owing to the lack of machiningnecessary to manufacture. thats were the higher end gun realy stick it to you, is the machine work, especialy on the bodys. take a macro economics class and watch the proff laugh at you when you quote "you get what you pay for". law of diminishing returns here we come.

lets give it half a chance for we call it a cheap piece of crap(wich it very well may be i have no idea....... if it gets god reviews i may next moth though whoop!!!)

[mag88888]

is the gripframe plastic too?

[dj89]

people, stop arguing about how he dont like SP. its a great idea, definitely. AGD couldve, shouldve done this. if we had a gun like the ION, we could backup our sales with the x mag. in fact, we should do that. i hope AGD is hiding something and BAM new AGD gun. congrats to SP for the idea, but congrats for being such dicks for sueing AGD.
They never sued agd from what i under stand. AGD will not sell a POC marker like SP will.

[Glickman]

congrats for SP lieing saying that 1000-1400 shots is very efficient



this is enough uninformed crap.

"efficient" or "accurate" or "best" is all opinionated. for me, i could say efficient was 1800 shots, while someone else could say it was 800..




congrats to SP for the idea, but congrats for being such dicks for sueing AGD.

wasnt it lincoln that said:
"It's better to remain silent and be thought an idiot than to speak and remove all doubt."



incase you didnt get the memo, the fad is over...

[thorn]

well, it definately wont touch my freestyle. i might buy one for a backup. but for u mag owners, u guys screw back ups and keep playing. DANG YOU MAG OWNERS< YOUR GUNS JUST WON"T BREAK!

lol

[Steelrat]

A cute yet meaningless cliche/generalisation.

There's always a value/money calculation and higher priced is NOT always higher value.

Also, what are you "paying for". When you buy a 2$ cotton t-shirt for 25$ because it has you favorite logo on it, what exactly are your "paying for". Nothing but hype and image.

Performance and utility would be identical in that example.

Another example could be SubZero refrigerators. Worst service history in the business. In that case you're paying through the nose for WORSE performance and utility.

Now, if you want a marker that will last you a season (yet to be seen I know) and can shoot the 15bps limit. What "value" do you get in spending three times as much for a different marker?

Looks? Hype? Image? Yes.
Performance/utility? Unless you've shot the thing and have data to backup reliability claims you should keep your mouth shut until the data is out and you've tried it yourself.

And if you still fall back on the pretentious "It looks cheap." argument, then I have only one thing to say:

IT IS CHEAP! :rofl: :bounce: :dance:

#1-I NEVER said anything about it looking cheap, so please don't lecture me for statements I never made.

#2-"You get what you pay for" is perfectly applicable in this case. You get a cheap body with a plastic shell, no real milling or anodization. You also get a polymer frame and what looks to be a polymer reg. I am sure there are other tradeoffs, though I said NOTHING about its reliability, if you bothered to read my post. So please get off your high horse. I must have missed the part where we switched topics from the ION to clothing and refrigerators, because when I said "You get what you pay for" I was referring only to the ION. Please spare me your lectures, professor.

[Glickman]

heres one cool thing. being plastic, and the shell being held in by screws, its feasable to have totally custom bodies.

now every forum can have their own body :D can you guess who is who? :rolleyes:
http://img71.exs.cx/img71/7105/ion4hj.jpg


(eh, just trying to occupy my time :D)

[Steelrat]

heres one cool thing. being plastic, and the shell being held in by screws, its feasable to have totally custom bodies.

now every forum can have their own body :D can you guess who is who? :rolleyes:
http://img71.exs.cx/img71/7105/ion4hj.jpg


(eh, just trying to occupy my time :D)

Really, thats one its best features. That, and its not a blowback, which makes it unusual at its price point.

[Beemer]

what happens when it gets hit with 3000psi. Does it say rated to 3000psi????????

[magman007]

unforunitly, thats because you need common sense to maintain paintball guns. alot of newbies buy impulses and shockers not knowing what they are doing. ive had a soleniod go on my shocker (just the o-rings really) but all it takes is a little common sense. Ive had an imp thats like a rock; lube before i play, and ive only had to replace the reg o-rings this month, after about 3 1/2 years.

the only plastic parts is the body shroud. machining a aluminum body wouldnt be hard to do, i thought i saw they it is held in by screws, so it would not be difficult . (although not saying ALL that much, but theres a reason that the military is now using composite bodies in their weapons, ie. xm8)


we shall see. :D if im not hit by a bolt of lightning in the next 30 seconds, im buying it, and ill post a full review including videos (it would come by monday) *runs fast!!!*


yea, it would be nice to get an unbiased review... not seeing this possible

[Steelrat]

what happens when it gets hit with 3000psi. Does it say rated to 3000psi????????

I don't think there are many guns (if any) other than the mag that can handle that. Shoot, my excal is a precision made gun, but I think it would explode if you hit it with that much pressure :wow:

HOWEVER, to be fair, many guns can do things the mag can't do.

[BigEvil]

Check out that internal air line assembly....

I bet something like that can be done for a mag.......

[Steelrat]

Check out that internal air line assembly....

I bet something like that can be done for a mag.......


It was (sort of) on the classic RT.

[dj89]

I don't think there are many guns (if any) other than the mag that can handle that. Shoot, my excal is a precision made gun, but I think it would explode if you hit it with that much pressure :wow:

HOWEVER, to be fair, many guns can do things the mag can't do.
I hope beemer ment "SP made a mag "

"many guns can do things the mag can't do." Not to say that a mag can do every thing, but what are some thing that they can't do?

[Steelrat]

I hope beemer ment "SP made a mag "

"many guns can do things the mag can't do." Not to say that a mag can do every thing, but what are some thing that they can't do?

PRevent chops better, shoot faster legally, shoot deeper into a tank, get more shots off a tank, shoot with less recoil. Not taking ANYTHING away from the mags, they are amazing, they just have their shortcomings like everything else. The trick it to exploit their advantages and anticipate the shortcomings, like any other marker.

[JT2002]

That's better efficiency than any "Rogue mag" you may have in stock.... sit down.


284.99 (Punisherspb) for a gun with those features?? I'll buy 2!

Many things can be sold for sub 300 when theyre made of plastic. aluminum parts surrounded by plasic... hrm sounds familiar, talon anyone??? at least they made it so you can saw that pos in half easily with some simple tools. :shooting: :cuss: ;) :clap: :ninja:




ps, i cant wait to see these guns breaking down at the field. should be fun to watch the refs play with the plastic. :hail: :cheers: ;)

["the FitZ"]

lose the plastic crap and put a sticker on it

[WicKeD_WaYz]

This sort of thing is good because it makes a gun like spyder have to be really competitive and cheap to even keep up. Guns are getting so ridiculously cheap these days when I started playing if you wanted an electric gun it was 700-1000 bucks and you would dominate the field, because nobody had them yet. I know I know some of you have been around since before all the electros...

[Lohman446]

Many things can be sold for sub 300 when theyre made of plastic. aluminum parts surrounded by plasic... hrm sounds familiar, talon anyone??? at least they made it so you can saw that pos in half easily with some simple tools. :shooting: :cuss: ;) :clap: :ninja:




ps, i cant wait to see these guns breaking down at the field. should be fun to watch the refs play with the plastic. :hail: :cheers: ;)


I can't wait, between this and the DevilMag, to school idiots who think the marker is all that in a game. I think I'm going to make a habit dressing down, leavning my sponsor gear at home... and seeing on open play days how many arrogant players I can take out with my "newbie" gun or my mag, which is a blender

[dj89]

PRevent chops better, shoot faster legally, shoot deeper into a tank, get more shots off a tank, shoot with less recoil. Not taking ANYTHING away from the mags, they are amazing, they just have their shortcomings like everything else. The trick it to exploit their advantages and anticipate the shortcomings, like any other marker.
I agree with every thing but "PRevent chops better,shoot with less recoil" But i do agree with every thing else.

[insixdays777]

remember when the 03 shockers came out...the first couple of runs where complete TRASH. wonder if the ION first runs will be anybetter?

I am going to wait a while...and then pick one up after all the reviews are out there...

I think this is a good move for all of us...I really dont like SP...but it is going to force other companys to make better and CHEAPER markers. and that is a good thing for everyone.

but nothing will replace my ULE Custom :headbang:

it shoots so fast people think is a shocker all the time anyway....played with it a year and still have never chopped a ball!!! thank you AGD!

[TDonovan]

Great idea IMO... I don't like SP, but I'd consider buying one of these. I am selling my mag because I need the extra cash, and I don't play with it enough to warrant keeping it. If I sell the mag and my tippmann I can still have enough money to function and pick up one of these. Interesting...

As long as it doesn't have MASSIVE FSDO, thread stripping problems, or some other durability flaw, they oughta be great.

[slade]

Congratulations on the dumbest piece of illogic I've ever heard.

I guess it's stupid and retarded that we pay thousands less today for computers that are light years ahead in terms of performance compared to computers only a few years old. Hell, the first 286 machine in my house set my Dad's company back about $4000 dollars, the first 15lb "luggable" IBM with it's tiny screen even more.
your comparison is illogical. you are comparing current technology with that of years ago. and my award for the "dumbest piece of illogic I've ever heard" goes to adam gardner.


I still can't believe there are morons essentially arguing that paintball should remain an expensive sport....
im arguing that the markers sold should be quality, something an engineer can be proud of, not something a manufacturer can sell to uninformed newbs for a large profit.


Yes, it's true that SP acted like douches. But so has WorrGames and WDP. So had NPS. Do you boycott all of their products as well?
what SP has done is far worse than anything WGP, WDP, or NPS has done (from what ive heard) and they also seem to be less inovative, for the most part. and I refuse to even consider buying a "trilogy" marker from WGP. Go ahead, try to guess why :D.


unforunitly, thats because you need common sense to maintain paintball guns. alot of newbies buy impulses and shockers not knowing what they are doing. ive had a soleniod go on my shocker (just the o-rings really) but all it takes is a little common sense. Ive had an imp thats like a rock; lube before i play, and ive only had to replace the reg o-rings this month, after about 3 1/2 years.

the only plastic parts is the body shroud. machining a aluminum body wouldnt be hard to do, i thought i saw they it is held in by screws, so it would not be difficult . (although not saying ALL that much, but theres a reason that the military is now using composite bodies in their weapons, ie. xm8)
I'm sure that lack of proper maintenance plays a part in the problems with SP markers, but i have also heard of quality control issues, such as metal shavings left inside the marker, feednecks snapping, horrid ano jobs, problems with the so-called "SFT" (thats a whole issue in itself...) etc. and i still retain my origional stance that the plastic body is to cut costs and hide the poor milling and lack of anodization.


people, stop arguing about how he dont like SP. its a great idea, definitely. AGD couldve, shouldve done this. if we had a gun like the ION, we could backup our sales with the x mag. in fact, we should do that. i hope AGD is hiding something and BAM new AGD gun. congrats to SP for the idea, but congrats for being such dicks for sueing AGD.
so AGD should have made an extremely cheapened, overhyped marker in order to capitalize on uninformed newbies? Go tell Tom Kaye what he should have done, tell me the response you get.


theres an awful lot of conjecture about this gun being low quality for noone having one yet. i hate to say it but those 1500+ dollar guns floating around......im willing to bet they didnt cost nearly that to make. the best case scenario with this gun is its simply cheaper to produce, owing to the lack of machiningnecessary to manufacture. thats were the higher end gun realy stick it to you, is the machine work, especialy on the bodys. take a macro economics class and watch the proff laugh at you when you quote "you get what you pay for". law of diminishing returns here we come.

lets give it half a chance for we call it a cheap piece of crap(wich it very well may be i have no idea....... if it gets god reviews i may next moth though whoop!!!)
and im willing to bet this marker didnt cost $300 to make, just as those didnt cost $1500 to make. where did you get $1500 anyway, though? last time i checked, most very high end markers cost around $1000, i cant remember the last time ive seen a marker for $1500. Back on topic of your post, true i have not shot this marker (most people here havent either) but i am saying that it is low quality due to the past history of SP. a lot of their markers are certainly not high quality, as i have said before. SP seems more concerned with quantity, advertising, and hype than quality and durability. and this is their cheapest marker by far, packed with more features than any of their other markers. this marker NOT being poor quality has... just about nothing supporting it.

oh yeah, and for those of you that are comparing the ion interchangeable body to the mag interchangeable body, remember that the mag body is milled from aluminum and is anodized. the ion "body", on the other hand, is a plastic shell. its just a colorful covering, not an actual body.


You get what you pay for. It sounds interesting, but if it truly performed like a high end gun then SP wouldnt be able to sell shockers and nerves, and they'd end up screwing themselves. I expect performance on par with the low end ICD guns. I certainly don't expect anything innovative.
listen to Steelrat.

[AGDlover]

will someone just give a gun to the top ppl of SP and tell em to play rushin roughlet(sp?) and then things might start changeing lol

I may buy one once i sell my gear just to have so when i got balling if i have to i still got something i dont care if i break

[Glickman]

:clap: :clap: :clap:


just ordered one (ninja black)

:clap: :clap: :clap:


when it comes, ill have air, paint, a video camera, and a nice <strike> big </strike> polished butt to wave in the faces of the doubters :D

[txaggie08]

Like I said when you get into an industry like this, the law of diminishing returns takes over. For those unfamaliar with how our economic system works, the law of diminishing returns states that price increase and product quality vary inversly. For example, Gun a costs 100 dollars while gun b costs 500 dollars. The law of diminishing returns states that gun b is not necesarily 5 times better than gun a (note prices are purely for example......). Go speak to an economisist about this, they can give you a better illustration.

So we arrive at a conundrum. Has smart parts, using cheaper materails and a superior pricing strategy, bipassed the law of diminishing returns. Or is this marker simply crap. Whole point is YOU dont know and neither do I, so the whole conjecture on its abilities and quality is meaningless garbage.You sight the fact there is no evidence to support the quality of this gun. Well I pose the question to you, what actual physical proof is there of the shodiness of it? I dont want generalized conjecture about smart parts, I want the evidence you have that this particular marker is a poor piece of engineering. However, putting the issue of the gun aside, steelrat and yourself are both wrong. Economic principle(and this applies to any industry regardles of size) has proven that in a capatilist, consumerist society, the old maxim of "you get what you pay for" is wrong. I'm sorry, but any reputable economist will explain this to you in painful detail.

[skife]

body kits.....

where ricers meet paintball.

GAH!

[Lohman446]

My thoughts on quality

The spool valve and the solenoid system that SP uses are fairly well thought out.

I think the design abilities of this marker are pretty high and the marker is capable of great things.

I expect to take metal shavings from the marker, have some issue, etc with quality control, the same as most SP markers I have had.

Once over that initial "Repair" I expect this to be a very competetive marker - considering the ungodly rate of fire that some people claim is exagerated, and otherwise unnecessary - I mean, I don't buy that 1/1000 people are legally shooting 20BPS

I expect the reg to be junk and have to be replaced - noting the max-flo systems on the demo markers I expect that the regs there were likely hollow.

I expect to see some serious upgrades for this, think how many upgrades there are for Spyders. I have already ordered the CCM No-Pro feedneck for it.


I'll tell you all next week

[matt-o]

wow, this is interesting, i might need to try one of these out. if it performs really well i might be tempted to sell my angel and get either this or a new BKO since there both gonna be so nice for the price. how do you think they compare?

[magman007]

you all realize that this thing isnt even electro pnumatic right? if oyu look at the schematics the solenoid is baisically a sear tripper for the spool valve. thats baisically what it is doing. interesting to say the least.

[CoolHand]

you all realize that this thing isnt even electro pnumatic right? if oyu look at the schematics the solenoid is baisically a sear tripper for the spool valve. thats baisically what it is doing. interesting to say the least.

No, that's not right.

Its still electropneumatic, its just not a piloted valve. The 'noid acts directly on a three way valve (or five way, whatever you want to call it). Instead of a diaphram pilot letting air in to move the 3way's spool, this one just uses a electromechanical solenoid to pull or push the 3way's spool.

Its a more robust and cheaper way of doing what the Humphrey's valves do. Plus, its a lot less sensitive to liquid CO2, and a lot easier to rebuild if it gets a snort. Its a good idea, and, one which has also occured to NPS (take a look at the 'noid of a Wrath sometime).

I'd say that simplified valve is one of the ways they were able to reduce the production cost of these markers.

[SpecialBlend2786]

No, that's not right.

Its still electropneumatic, its just not a piloted valve. The 'noid acts directly on a three way valve (or five way, whatever you want to call it). Instead of a diaphram pilot letting air in to move the 3way's spool, this one just uses a electromechanical solenoid to pull or push the 3way's spool.

Its a more robust and cheaper way of doing what the Humphrey's valves do. Plus, its a lot less sensitive to liquid CO2, and a lot easier to rebuild if it gets a snort. Its a good idea, and, one which has also occured to NPS (take a look at the 'noid of a Wrath sometime).

I'd say that simplified valve is one of the ways they were able to reduce the production cost of these markers.

Speaking of the Wrath....when did that thing come out!? I totally missed it, it looks sweet!

[Lurker27]

Sweet Jesus let it be AVR compatible.

[tyrion2323]

your comparison is illogical. you are comparing current technology with that of years ago. and my award for the "dumbest piece of illogic I've ever heard" goes to adam gardner.


im arguing that the markers sold should be quality, something an engineer can be proud of, not something a manufacturer can sell to uninformed newbs for a large profit.


what SP has done is far worse than anything WGP, WDP, or NPS has done (from what ive heard) and they also seem to be less inovative, for the most part. and I refuse to even consider buying a "trilogy" marker from WGP. Go ahead, try to guess why :D.


I'm sure that lack of proper maintenance plays a part in the problems with SP markers, but i have also heard of quality control issues, such as metal shavings left inside the marker, feednecks snapping, horrid ano jobs, problems with the so-called "SFT" (thats a whole issue in itself...) etc. and i still retain my origional stance that the plastic body is to cut costs and hide the poor milling and lack of anodization.


so AGD should have made an extremely cheapened, overhyped marker in order to capitalize on uninformed newbies? Go tell Tom Kaye what he should have done, tell me the response you get.


and im willing to bet this marker didnt cost $300 to make, just as those didnt cost $1500 to make. where did you get $1500 anyway, though? last time i checked, most very high end markers cost around $1000, i cant remember the last time ive seen a marker for $1500. Back on topic of your post, true i have not shot this marker (most people here havent either) but i am saying that it is low quality due to the past history of SP. a lot of their markers are certainly not high quality, as i have said before. SP seems more concerned with quantity, advertising, and hype than quality and durability. and this is their cheapest marker by far, packed with more features than any of their other markers. this marker NOT being poor quality has... just about nothing supporting it.

oh yeah, and for those of you that are comparing the ion interchangeable body to the mag interchangeable body, remember that the mag body is milled from aluminum and is anodized. the ion "body", on the other hand, is a plastic shell. its just a colorful covering, not an actual body.


listen to Steelrat.

Slade, the problem with your posts is that you're assuming EVERYTHING. You don't have any evidence to back it up. No matter one's positiong, pro or con, without evidence an argument doesn't hold.

And, just to let you know, Intimidators can be produced and sold for $350 while making a profit. Does that mean that Timmies are crappy to?

Why don't we all just cave in - "any gun but AGD guns are CRAP because they can't take enormously high input pressures for no real reason, and they utilize competitive marketing and product hype!"

of course, we'll fail to mention the half-naked pictures of Clare Benavides promoting ULE bodies, because when AGD does it, it's okay!!!

[Jackel411]

Okay I caved.. Im a cheap bugger and wanted a new toy... I had the store afiliated with my job as field tech order me up one.. sorta kicked me to know the WS cost of one and not have an SP account or the cash to do up a first time NPS order.. arrrrg....

Any way.. 300 bucks into too bad to test **** with :)

[poonjar]

Its not the gun for me but I think a gun like this will be good for the sport if nothing else. Now people who want to try paintball can do so with an above average gun for cheep. I know a few people who paintballed once but because their first time they had a bad experience with a spyder they never played again, so hopefully that wont happen. it would be great if feilds start getting them as rentals.

[paintballrulzs]

Alright guys lets focus on the topic here: Smart Parts new gun, not an attack on the company itself. Many claimed for years they boycotted smart parts yet still owned freaks until the past 2 years alternatives have come out. Who cares if you hate the company. You all know if AGD made this you would be dropping to the floor and bowing to Tom Kaye. The gun can do a great thing for our industry. Im looking at getting a new marker myself, and being in college can't afford to drop 1000 ona gun at the moment. This seems to be able to keep up with high end guns. Do the research. The gun isn't plastic, neither is the grip frame. It is definately going to sell like crazy. Ive seen videos and better pictures and Im gonna say Im greatly impressed. This thing seems like it will have no trouble swaying players to look away from higher end markers. Clearly your highlevel tourney players won't be replacing their loysoyas and DM5s, but what about the weekly player who plays the occasional tournament? This should excede the expectations of your average player. There is no harm is making the sport that much cheaper. These could and probably will be rentals. This will get more walkons to the fields without fear of being blown outa the water using the tippmanns on airball fields. I am pretty sure Ill be ordering a black one tomorrow, just gonna keep researching.

[Evil1]

I may have to pick one of these up to try it out.

[Enemy]

for those of you that are telling steelrat that the saying you get what you pay for is a crok!!
shot a dm4 then shot a spyder or tippman tell me there is no difference!! now drive a civic then drive a ferrari 360 hell drive a porsche boxter or a corvette and tell me that the civic handled better had a better torque curve!! even felt better and i will slap you for lieing!!
you get what you pay for. be it that some things may have bigger value than others see corvette versus viper!! but a corvette has its downfalls from a viper and a viper from a ferrari and a lower end ferrari from a lamborgihni(sp im tired), lambo from enzo, enzo from mclarren f1!! hmm see a pattern here!!

now seeing smartparts quality control among other things i see me becoming a tech on this marker quick because i see lots of tear downs and even more telling kids that same phrase you get what you payed for!!

[CoolHand]

for those of you that are telling steelrat that the saying you get what you pay for is a crok!!
shot a dm4 then shot a spyder or tippman tell me there is no difference!! now drive a civic then drive a ferrari 360 hell drive a porsche boxter or a corvette and tell me that the civic handled better had a better torque curve!! even felt better and i will slap you for lieing!!
you get what you pay for. be it that some things may have bigger value than others see corvette versus viper!! but a corvette has its downfalls from a viper and a viper from a ferrari and a lower end ferrari from a lamborgihni(sp im tired), lambo from enzo, enzo from mclarren f1!! hmm see a pattern here!!

now seeing smartparts quality control among other things i see me becoming a tech on this marker quick because i see lots of tear downs and even more telling kids that same phrase you get what you payed for!!

Ah yes.

So by this logic the Mag should be only a fuzz more reliable then . . . . . . . right? Its not too much higher with the basic options.

I have seen kids by Shockers and fight with them, then they sell or trade them off and show up with a DM4, which they then fight with, so they trade that off for a Timmy which they have a butt load of trouble with. So, after their last high end uber marker option is gone, they trade down for an Imp or something cheaper, and learn how to tech the durned thing, and then they are happy.

The simple fact is that most people who have gun issues have them because they don't know what they are doing, or they are ham handed when they are working (IE, I cranked on the threads 'till they pulled out. "This gun sucks, I was only using a 1/16th" allen key with a 4" cheater bar on it. ").

It has been my experience that the Shocker does suffer from some poor ano jobs, and wide tolerances (some cans won't seal in some bodies), but these were mostly seen in the early bodies (where they were still feeling out the manufacturing of them). The bodies are also made from very soft alum, this is known up front, treat them accordingly. Hopefully SP has learned that uber fine threads + uber soft alum = stripped threads. I would like to see a lot of coarse thread fasteners (if not all coarse thread). That is one thing I will look at when mine shows up.

It looks to be pretty simple to take apart, and should be easy to totally rebuild, so its not like you can't throw an oring kit at it and fix 90% of the problems you'll encounter. The 'noid doesn't require grease or lube of any kind (in fact the manual warns you not to open up and lube the solenoid at all). I think SP really sat down and thought about ways to make this marker easy to maintain, and to take long stretches of use without much (if any) real maintenance.

I'm glad to see this, it shows they are actually thinking, and developing things. Very good to see after so many years of nothing new, now we have three new markers in two years, two of which are fairly sniggly in design, and the other is a well executed refinement of a system that is a proven performer. Not too bad IMO. Lawsuits and all that other crap aside, they are really on a roll.

[tyrion2323]

I really think Logic is hitting the nail on the head here. But then again, he's an established tech and such, so I tend to take him seriously.

Why is half of the AO population ripping on a gun that 0% have shot? Perhaps it stinks, and perhaps it rocks. Lohman will let us know how his comes out. If someone like Nicad or Logic decided to make aluminum body sleeves, then you wouldn't have to worry about the polymer sleeve. But then again, why are we bashing it because it's not metal? I have seen ZERO complaints from AOers about the AGD Carbon Fibre frames which come stock on the RTPRO. Why the discrimination?

To those who seek to compare this (and every gun) to the automag, I have some questions:

Why would you need it to handle 3000psi input? Does your tank output that much psi?
Why would you need it to survive falling into a river? Do you submerse your gun prior to games?
Why would you need it to survive being run over by a tank? Do you mishandle your gun frequently?
Why would you need it to be mechanical? Electronics have proven themselves time and time again.
Why is AGD Hybrid mode okay while Rebound mode is not okay?
Why is Predatoring an EMAG or Devil-mag considered okay, but having Rebound not okay?
Why does a powder coated SP gun suck, but a powdercoated mag rock?
Why does its efficiency have to be compared to an elite AKA gun at thrice the price?
Why does having polymer parts on an SP gun make it cheap, but having carbon fibre frames on automags is okay?
What would you HONESTLY say if AGD released this gun?

These are just questions to consider before typing another "it's not as good as a mag" post.

[SAW]

If Lohman comes back with a good rating, this will definitely be my newest marker...

[bulzeye]

great idea by SP. now they can battle it out with ICD, dragun, odyssey, kingman. the fact is this isn't going to cut into the high dollar market like most of you think. the spoiled kids are still going to be getting the dm5's, alias', and every other 1000 dollar gun.

this however does open up a new page in having a fairly reliable backup marker. this may be a good gun, it may not. nobody knows yet. my only concern would be the fact that SP has always used cheaper materials. I could only imagine how cheap they went on this. lets not forget they are still going for maximum profit here.

so it probably cost them 75-100 to make it maybe a lil more. they turn around and sell it fro 200+ to a dealer.

last time i checked the prices for aluminum were at a all time high and they keep going up. there is no way this body touched a cnc machine, which would make me wonder about tolerances. for being such a "simple" gun remember all the problems the shocker sft had.

there is no doubt this will be an instant success.

[SlartyBartFast]

so please don't lecture me for statements I never made.

The world doesn't revolve around you. I wasn't talking to you specifically. :rolleyes:

If what I said affects you that much, well that's your problem. Not mine.

[SlartyBartFast]

You make some good points, but when it comes to fabrication and production, quality = $$$.

But you're missing my point entirely. Or perhaps I'm not being clear enough.

If the added "quality" or production costs have nothing to do with performance and reliability "you get what you pay for" is completely subjective.

Take the difference between an Xmag and Emag. $1400 vs. $800. That's not $600 worth of "quality" in my eyes. That's $600 of eye candy and flash. The internals, how they operate, how they perform, and their reliability are identical.

A very import factor in determining manufacturing cost is identifying critical tolerances, critical finishes, and performing QA checks only on those parts that are critical and at a reasonable frequency. In the case of this marker, those would be the internals. The slide on body eliminates all the tolerances and finishing costs from the external metal surfaces. Whether tolerances and quality control of the interior parts is compromised, no one on this list has a clue.

As far as cars go, yes you get more for your money with more expensive cars. But it depends what kind of performance your looking for and what kind of looks and comforts.

If my interest is racing and speed, the typical mod car with $10,000+ of stereos and DVD players certainly isn't value for money in my eyes.

[Carazy]

Video on the site has been removed. Anybody have a mirror?

[magsRus]

is that the same trigger frame that they use on a Shocker?

[11_Mile_TMaster]

I really think Logic is hitting the nail on the head here. But then again, he's an established tech and such, so I tend to take him seriously.

Why is half of the AO population ripping on a gun that 0% have shot? Perhaps it stinks, and perhaps it rocks. Lohman will let us know how his comes out. If someone like Nicad or Logic decided to make aluminum body sleeves, then you wouldn't have to worry about the polymer sleeve. But then again, why are we bashing it because it's not metal? I have seen ZERO complaints from AOers about the AGD Carbon Fibre frames which come stock on the RTPRO. Why the discrimination?

To those who seek to compare this (and every gun) to the automag, I have some questions:

Why would you need it to handle 3000psi input? Does your tank output that much psi?
Why would you need it to survive falling into a river? Do you submerse your gun prior to games?
Why would you need it to survive being run over by a tank? Do you mishandle your gun frequently?
Why would you need it to be mechanical? Electronics have proven themselves time and time again.
Why is AGD Hybrid mode okay while Rebound mode is not okay?
Why is Predatoring an EMAG or Devil-mag considered okay, but having Rebound not okay?
Why does a powder coated SP gun suck, but a powdercoated mag rock?
Why does its efficiency have to be compared to an elite AKA gun at thrice the price?
Why does having polymer parts on an SP gun make it cheap, but having carbon fibre frames on automags is okay?
What would you HONESTLY say if AGD released this gun?

These are just questions to consider before typing another "it's not as good as a mag" post.

To be fair... when I feel my AGD Carbon Fiber frame, I honestly think it is every bit as sturdy as the Intelliframe. I can't quite say the same for, say, the Plastic PMI E-Frames.

As for durability.... Keep in mind the target market. Let's face it, some of these people tend to mishandle their equiptment. I cringed when I saw someone nearly crossthread their tank into their brand new impulse at a local field.

A lot of people prefer the feel of a mechanical trigger. That was actually the primary reason I never e-bladed my autococker.

Hybrid != Ramping. Sure, it's another way to increase the rate of fire, but they do not work the same way. As for predators, yeah, you've got a good point there. I still question the logic of putting ramping into a 300$ gun, however.

As for Powdercoating, I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about. I think, however, one worry people might be having is that this is going to screw up Tolerances, something which I've seen a lot of people complain about in regards to smart parts. If it's not that, then I don't know what they're complaining about.

[Steelrat]

The world doesn't revolve around you. I wasn't talking to you specifically. :rolleyes:

If what I said affects you that much, well that's your problem. Not mine.

When you quote me, then use the term "you," what else am I supposed to think? :rolleyes:

Grow up.

[SlartyBartFast]

When you quote me, then use the term "you," what else am I supposed to think? :rolleyes:

Grow up.

Next time I'll generalise more. Get real. :rolleyes:

You might not like it but I still stand by what I said.

What are you paying for: A marker that can shoot paint quickly and reliably.

Are you getting it? Possibly.

I'm still waiting for one person on this Forum to tell me why a lack of hundreds of dollars worth of cosmetics is reason for so much hate, or why they're so shallow as to judge a marker on cosmetic quality.

[tyrion2323]

Okay guys, chill out now.

[Steelrat]

Okay guys, chill out now.

When I'm attacked, I will defend myself. Sorry, but thats the way it has to be.

As for people attacking the gun, certainly no one should be hating on it, though people can critique its design elements, and make mention of previous issues SP has had with QC. HOWEVER, if you are going to get upset with all the people making negative comments about it, shouldn't you also get upset with those people showering it with praise? After all, no one on here has held it or shot it, so how can we possibly know if it sucks OR if its great.

[RRfireblade]

It's a pretty good looking unattrictive marker,

Probably shoots as slow as any other decent mid-level marker,

Plastic composite is pretty cheesy and breaks often even though there is plastic in bullet proof vests that can take a direct shot,

It probably won't do very well, only sell about as many as Tippy sells of the A5 or ICD of the BKO,

Who really want's to have a bunch of available color options comparable to the AGD ULE bodies for far less money anyway?

It's just another SP product.

IMO. ;)

[Ydna]

It seems to me that some poeple are missing the main characteristic of the gun, that it doesn't have a traditional body. There are only two internals to the whole firing assembly, the fire chamber and the bolt. The fire chamber screws onto the breech section. The only part of the whole gun where tolerances even come into effect (besides for the outsourced solenoid) is these two firing assembly parts. Funcitonal parts are then covered by the exoskeleton.

Powdercoating is completely beside the point since none of the functional parts are powdercoated. Tolerances on teh frame, trigger, these effect the firing of the marker somehow if they're off by some amount coincident with a tolerance mistake? no....

The whole debate here seems to have folded down to whether it will be reliable or not. Of course the bottomline is, nobody knows until the time comes. What is the point in *****ing about how cheap the Impulse was or wasn't made in the past? SP does like to use lowgrade aluminum, if that's what the complaining is about....i certainly hope not.
It is true that the more things change the more they stay the same, but then again Smart Parts has never sold this kind of gun for $300 before.

[evildead420]

all we know that this topic is on the 7th page after a day, so this new marker will get alot of attention and buyers

[txaggie08]

for those of you that are telling steelrat that the saying you get what you pay for is a crok!!
shot a dm4 then shot a spyder or tippman tell me there is no difference!! now drive a civic then drive a ferrari 360 hell drive a porsche boxter or a corvette and tell me that the civic handled better had a better torque curve!! even felt better and i will slap you for lieing!!
you get what you pay for. be it that some things may have bigger value than others see corvette versus viper!! but a corvette has its downfalls from a viper and a viper from a ferrari and a lower end ferrari from a lamborgihni(sp im tired), lambo from enzo, enzo from mclarren f1!! hmm see a pattern here!!

now seeing smartparts quality control among other things i see me becoming a tech on this marker quick because i see lots of tear downs and even more telling kids that same phrase you get what you payed for!!

i soent thirty minutes yesterday typin a realy nice reply explaining in explicit detail the governing principle behind why steelrat is wrong, please go back and read it. its nice to see a few people on her have taken basic economics and undestand diminishing retrrns(that or its clicked in your heads, and you may want to consider what you want for a new career)

[txaggie08]

I would also like to make it known i will be happy to wuote from an economics textbook when i get home next friday. Maybe if you wont listen to me youlld listen to them.

[PumpPlayer]

Since everybody is getting in on the action, I'll throw my two cents down on the floor, roll the dice and see how they fall.

First, a quote from the review article that jumped right out at me:


Get this - $380 CDN ($300 USD)! There is simply nothing in this class for this price.
Well THAT'S certainly not true... I can think of at least half a dozen quality markers that retail for under $300. So is the point that they can shoot 17 bps? First, I don't really see that as being the amazing part. I'll argue against the need for more than 10 bps 'till the cows come home, but this isn't the place for such a debate. Second, I don't think anyone has thought about the additional expenses that go with shooting 17 bps. Will it work at 17bps with CO2? Probably not. Will it shoot 17 bps with a standard non-motorized hopper? Deffinitely not. So right there you've added at least $300 to the price of the marker in order to achieve the advertized 17 bps. So $600 total. If the marker originally cost $500, you'd be making a total investment of $800. So while someone can look at a $300 marker as think they're saving 40%, they're really only saving 25%. Furthermore, tack on the price of a mask, pods and other equipment, you reduce your percentage savings by buying a lower-priced marker. Yes, a dollar is still a dollar, but certain things have a fixed price. If you consider other expenses associated with the sport, the marker (while most people see it as the highest-cost item) is actually only a small portion of the total cost of playing. Just paint for a year is significantly more expensive, as an example, than the cost of a $300 marker. Especially if you plan to shoot 17 bps!

So, is it an advantage to the consumer that the marker is less expensive? No, deffinitely not. But will consumers THINK that it is an advantage? Absolutely. That's what will sell these markers: The preception that the end consumer is getting a good deal. Can I say whether or not this marker will be reliable? No, I haven't ever seen one, much less shot it. I think those of us who make comments on the reliability are simply going off SP's very poor track record of quality. However, as many people have alluded to with complaints of looks, body design and even brand, there may be factors more important than cost, efficiency and reliability.

I'm not going to try to start a brand war here, but there is no question that BRAND plays an important part in many consumers' decisions regardless of the market. Think about the Honda vs. Harley Davidson debate... I don't care what your preference is and I won't give mine, but to motorcycle consumers, brand makes a BIG difference. Likewise, to paintball consumers, brand is important. Players place their entire identity with a specific style of play, marker type, setup and even the colors they wear. They will defend their brand decisions with vigor. Many paintballers (myself included) have a severe DISlike for SP. Why? I find their business practices unethical. Legal, perhaps, but that's not the issue. So we immediately begin with a negative opinion of all SP products. Might my opinion change if proved wrong? Yes. But right now, I'm skeptical.

Someone stated that if AGD had released the Ion, we would be worshipping it. That's doubtful for two reasons. First, AGD would never make this type of marker. It's not their style. That's why their fans admire them. "Because quality always shoots straight." Yes, it's a catchy slogan, but it has meaning. It means they choose quality and reliability over cost. It's why 'mags over the years have had stainless steel valves. It's expensive to machine stainless. It takes longer and requires more durable, expensive equipment. Only recently did they switch to aluminum. Why aluminum? Because they were finally able to get an alloy that lives up to their expectations of performance. All alloys are not the same simply because their base metal is aluminum. One masterful remark to this fact noted that SP uses "velveta strength" aluminum. I laughed for a full minute at that because it's true. As to the plastic construction being comparable to AGD's carbon fiber grip frames... I'm going to have to disagree. Yes, the carbon fibers are encased in polymer that could be termed 'plastic'. Glocks are technically 'plastic' too and we've all heard of their legendary reliability and performance. Just as all aluminum alloys are not the same, all plastics are not the same either. So, AGD would never produce the Ion and I think that's a bit of a moot point.

Second, if AGD did produce the Ion, I doubt anyone would be worshipping it. Sure it might receive a few nods that it would not get with SP, but that's because we expect high quality from AGD. We expect low quality from SP. By and large, however, I think AGD's following would be very disappointed if they released an Ion-like marker. AGD has always carried only a few models of marker and has produced them using quality, durable construction. As their slogan suggests, quality is more important than anything else. For AGD to produce an Ion-like marker, it would indicate that they had given up their commitment to quality. They would have 'sold-out' and it would be a real disappointment to me and many others.

Lastly, a word to all electro-toting 17 bps lovers: we like mechanical markers for two reasons. First, they are preferred because they are reliable and keep us confident in our equipment. Second, using a mechanical marker is a form of 'protest' to the path the industry is going in. You may say that electronic markers are reliable. Sure. After you get it wet? Maybe it's a well-protected electronic marker, but good ol' H2O will destroy it. Sorry, that's just not my style. Yes, I take care of my equipment and I doubt I would ever NEED its resilient properties, but I like that it's there. I'm never going to put 3k psi to my mag's valve... but I like the fact that it's durable enough to handle it. I like being able to buy an ill-cared-for second-hand mag that's 10 years old and never had the seals replaced once, gas it up and shoot it like it was new (well, almost new). And yes, I've done it as I'm sure many people have. And it worked like a charm. Did it shoot 17 bps? No... but it was quality, which is more important both to me and many people.

In summary, you have to ask yourself, is quality more important than price? Do I want something reliable or cheap? Am I going to play for a year or two and then hang it up or will I play for a long time? Will I still be shooting this marker in 10 years? If you're a budget-conscious kid that wants to play for a few years then quit; who wants to try running before he can walk; and doesn't care about brand loyalty or what any respectable paintball player would say to someone who uses SP equipment... Then get an Ion by all means.

As a proud owner of AGD, CCI and especially ICD equipment, I do not buy SP products (not even the freak set). I will encourage any prospective customer to steer away from SP. I do not trust the Ion and you will never see it or any other SP marker in my hands. That's my personal choice. Feel free to have your own opinions, but I stick by mine.

[Ydna]

It's okay to be skeptical. Encouraged, even.
The only reserve is, though, that wherever there's an SP-oponent whom will assume it's low-q until proven therwise, there is always an SP proponent thinking the opposite.
And as always first impressions will matter...luckily the Ion has been in development for somewhat longer than the Shocker SFT was.

[Carazy]

Since everybody is getting in on the action, I'll throw my two cents down on the floor, roll the dice and see how they fall.

Your first point

Its not any cheaper.

The point is it is cheaper. You're going to have to buy all that stuff you mentioned no matter what. You don't want to shoot an automag with a regular viewloader.

But its SP

SP has made guns that people use, some people like SP's guns. I have a maxflo tank and I am very satisfied with it. You kept comparing SP to Airgun and saying that everything on that ion is cheap yet none of us have actually seen it in person or held it. These are all just estimates right now.

Its electric you douse it in water and it won't work

Most of the electric guns are sealed well enough where unless its a monsoon outside then they will still work. I wouldn't go out there with a real expensive gun but it still stands that most will work in little bit of rain.

Thats about all I have to say. Basically I was just mad about your money part.

[VFX_Fenix]

Yes, the carbon fibers are encased in polymer that could be termed 'plastic'. Glocks are technically 'plastic' too and we've all heard of their legendary reliability and performance.

Glocks also suffer from explosive dissasembly in their .40 S&W models because they took the cheep and easy route to get a pistol chambered in that calibur to the market. One thing that Glock does have going for it though, they're not all that pricey compaired to similarly sized models by H&K or Sig Sauer :shooting:

[Steelrat]

i soent thirty minutes yesterday typin a realy nice reply explaining in explicit detail the governing principle behind why steelrat is wrong, please go back and read it. its nice to see a few people on her have taken basic economics and undestand diminishing retrrns(that or its clicked in your heads, and you may want to consider what you want for a new career)

No, I am not wrong, so please stop with the lecturing, nobody is impressed by your knowledge of economics. Also, just because you explained your position, that does not mean everyone has to agree with it.

I understand diminishing returns, as Im sure most people do. I said "You get what you pay for, not "When you pay $1500 you get a gun that is 5 times better than one that is $300." When you pay, say, $800 for an AKA viking for example, you get high-grade aluminum, tight tolerances, all-metal construction, type 3 anodization, super-strong feedneck threading, etc etc. When you buy a $300 Ion, you get a plastic body, simplified reg, PROBABLE soft aluminum internals, lower-end electronics, etc etc. See, doesnt that make sense? Its not ALWAYS true that the higher cost item uses higher quality (or cost) parts, but in this case, it is. Note that I said NOTHING about performance, once again.

And like I said earlier, if this gun were the second coming of Christ, wouldn't SP be shooting itself in the foot by impacting sales of nerves and shockers? THAT IS BASIC ECONOMICS! You don't compete with yourself! I'm sure it'll be competitive at the $300 price point, but I doubt it will, or was even intended to, compete with more expensive markers.

[Lohman446]

Ready to admit something - that DM5, that Angel, that... well whatever was never worth $1200 worth of materials and production. There cost was associated with research and development and marketing.

SP took a chance here... they looked at the cost of a marker
Research and devlopment - probably very little comparatively, considering this is using a spool valve and they have had pretty good sucess in the past. They have used various lessons learned in the past an applied them - don't be surprised if a lot of the ideas come from the many attempts and failures of the Nerve before they got one working right.

Marketing - how much has SP spent marketing this thing so far - some space on there website, handing it to a few people to right reviews. SO FAR they have not spent much on marketing and I will bet you they are selling A LOT of these. When I had mine ordered they ordered some more for the store because they were so impressed. Wait until these start showing up on the store, in ramping mode, next to the Spyders. I think these things are going to sell. SP can market them next to the Shocker Especially if other rumors hold true that one of the sponsored SP teams may use them - the rumor I heard was Miami Effect may be using these things shortly - and that is a rumor from my various calls to SP yesterday in regards to this marker.

They did address production costs. Likely one of the more expensive parts of production involved getting a marker ready for, and annoing the thing - these have both been addressed. As stated above, the only important tolerances are really inside the breech.

So they have cut the price further on the production of this marker... and are still selling it likely at a good profit. What are we going to think when the price comes down a touch (assuming it does). They could have made this marker, cut costs, and not hurt performance at all - we will not know if they did until we try it. I think a lot of people are hoping it does not perform.

"You get what you pay for" is only true to a point. I have said for a long time that markers are built beyond what we can reasonbly use. I mean, who hits 32BPS on there mag? Who hits an honest 17+ on a legal semi-auto marker anyway. With the current rules in PSP allowing ramping and limiting it to 15BPS what is the advantage of having a marker capable of 30BPS. Sure you get what you pay for - but if the speed limit is enforced at 25MPH and there are no corners what good is a Porsche over an Escort?

I think SP made a serious look at what was actually used in a marker, aimed for it and hit it. I hope all of you who have said "its not the marker, its the player" remember that. I hope all of you who call this a kiddie gun get a chance to play against a good team with them. And I really hope they smoke you :D . Its not just a kiddie gun. There are players who are 30 years old, could afford any marker they wanted, and are simply not going to spend $1000 on a marker. Just because I can, doesn't mean I am going to. Ok, so I ordered a DevilMag.. I can and will. But you get the point... I know some very good players who are seriously going to look at this marker.

Do I think this marker is perfect how it is? Not at all. I expect to hate the reg on it, and replace it - I might be surprised. I expect to find quality control issues with it - I might be surprised. I already ordered a new feedneck to fit the halo I have cut for the CCM no-pro neck. I expect to see an efficiency mod for it from somewhere at some point.

SPs marketing department did a great job on this, they followed what sells, and made an inexpensive marker to it
Ion VS ULE RT Pro I understand this is not necessarily a fair comparison, but it is one that people looking at it will make. I obviously understand the RT has some points the Ion will not

Break beam eyes - ION - yes / RT - NO - but we have LX (see how stupid this statement sounds, its like WDP no but we have COPS)

Electronic firing - Ion yes / RT NO But we are submersible

Rebound firing - Ion yes / RT No... but we can increase input pressure and cause runaway...

PSP 15BPS ramping - Ion yes / RT No

Magnetic trigger - Ion yes / RT No but we have RT effect, and are mechanical

Used by a "pro" team - Ion - maybe / RT - definately not but thats by choice.. there just as good

Low pressure operation - Ion yes / RT - no.. BUT it doesnt make a difference

Compare the ion to the other markers people will compare it to, it compares pretty well. It might look decent even (don't know I think it looks ok). There will be custom shells for them I am sure. Durability... good question, I am curious on this one. And you can compare SP and AGD business practices all you want. Most consumers don't really care - its not like the Gardners were sacrificing babies. In fact, some consumers beleive that AGD and others knowingly violated patent law in the production of the E-mag (I didn't say it was a well founded beleif... I just said it was a beleif I have heard).

[PumpPlayer]

Glocks also suffer from explosive dissasembly in their .40 S&W models because they took the cheep and easy route to get a pistol chambered in that calibur to the market. One thing that Glock does have going for it though, they're not all that pricey compaired to similarly sized models by H&K or Sig Sauer

I'm not well-read on my tactical handgun information. I simply chose the original 9mm Glock as an example of the ruggedness of modern polymers. I suppose modern bicycle helmets, artificial hearts or other high durability plastic items would also have worked as well.

I've never fired any Glocks other than the original 9mm. I'm a competition .22 olympic discipline shooter (no, not IN the olympics -I wish-, just the same disciplines - 10m air, 50 ft standard and 50m free) and I have to say I know a lot more about companies like Feinwerkbau, Hammerlei and TOZ. But thanks for the insight.

I think it's a classic example of rushing a product and sacrificing quality. And it illustrates that even great companies are suceptible to temptation.

Edit for Carazy: I wasn't saying that the actual price was less, I'm making the point that percentage savings are not as great as some people are liable to think. Given fixed costs of loaders, air systems and safety equipment, saving $100 on a marker is small in PERCENTAGE when you look at the overall cost of playing. I believe I noted this with a concession that, "...a dollar is still a dollar." Yes, you are going to save money, but it's the difference of $900 to $800, NOT the difference of $400 to $300. Therefore, your precentage savings are low when you look at the overall cost. I didn't say that you wouldn't save money at all.

Also, I'm going to make another pro-mechanical statement here. Yes, I understand that the electronics of electro markers aren't just hanging out of the gun waiting to get paint or water on them. However, I simply prefer mechanical systems. I find them to be far more artistic than electrical versions. Art? Come on, right? Well, given the prevailing opinions of the physical shape and color of markers, I'd say aesthetics are important. To me, I find mechanical systems aesthetically pleasing. I AM an engineer, so feel free to laugh at me for saying that... Am I saying that there can't be creativity and ingenuity in electrical systems? Not at all... I just personally feel that my marker's reliability is more important than its speed.

Oh, and I DO use a non-motorized, gravity fed hopper on my mag... it's a pre-BE VL-200.

[Steelrat]

Ready to admit something - that DM5, that Angel, that... well whatever was never worth $1200 worth of materials and production. There cost was associated with research and development and marketing.



Sure I am ready to admit it, in fact I completely agree with that. However, I also think the Ion does not cost $300 to make, and includes R&D and marketing. So, since both include those costs, we are back at square one.

And again, why would we even begin to say that it is, or isn't, able to compete with $300 guns, or even $1200 guns? Has anyone shot it yet, or played with it? Looking at the specs is cool, and shows that it has some interesting features, but it tells us very little about how well it will actually work.

That being said, I'm sure that it will work fine, though it will have some initial problems like every other marker.

[GT]

Note that I said NOTHING about performance, once again.


I think that’s the whole point and why people get so polarized when a product like this is discussed. I'll give you a great example. I played with a BKO for about 6 months prior to the arrival of my Viking. Not only did I not notice a difference in performance but the cheaper BKO had better milling and anno! The BKO was all annoed the same color and the milling was completely smooth and polished unlike the featherlite I dropped over 1200 bucks on. Now, the Viking to its credit was a lot more efficient, but that single feature alone was not worth the extra 1k I paid for it over the bko. I will never ever pay that much for a gun again, unless it is something truly rare otherwise it just the same as everything else out there, yes that even includes some uber 1 of 10 anno timmy or the RO viking.

What we fail to argue is where people weight their values with the facts. The problem with arguing diminishing returns is that it doesn’t take into account what each person values. Bob may want a killer anno, Joey wants to shoot "deeper into the tank", and Billy wants beam brake eyes and they are all willing to pay whatever it takes for THIER key feature. It is up to the manufacture to build a handful of profitable, not in all cases, products and hope that Bob, Joey, and Billy find all the features THEY value in their product.

Why are there so many different cars out there when 99% of car owners need a car that goes 55mph and get them to work reliably?

[Lohman446]

And like I said earlier, if this gun were the second coming of Christ, wouldn't SP be shooting itself in the foot by impacting sales of nerves and shockers? THAT IS BASIC ECONOMICS! You don't compete with yourself! I'm sure it'll be competitive at the $300 price point, but I doubt it will, or was even intended to, compete with more expensive markers.

No, because a lot of players, myself included, are idiots and will pay extra money for fancy milling, annodizing, to use what Dynasty/Strange use, because it says Dye on it, because AKA made it, or for whatever stupid reason even if it has nothing to do with actual performance - the ability to put paintballs on your target.

They may loose a few Shocker/nerve sales... and gain a few sales from Timmies/DM5s/etc. but they are betting (I think correctly) that the arrogance of tournament players who would have bought high end markers will show through and they will buy them anyways.

[Python14]

Alright guys lets focus on the topic here: Smart Parts new gun, not an attack on the company itself. Many claimed for years they boycotted smart parts yet still owned freaks until the past 2 years alternatives have come out. Who cares if you hate the company. You all know if AGD made this you would be dropping to the floor and bowing to Tom Kaye. The gun can do a great thing for our industry. Im looking at getting a new marker myself, and being in college can't afford to drop 1000 ona gun at the moment. This seems to be able to keep up with high end guns. Do the research. The gun isn't plastic, neither is the grip frame. It is definately going to sell like crazy. Ive seen videos and better pictures and Im gonna say Im greatly impressed. This thing seems like it will have no trouble swaying players to look away from higher end markers. Clearly your highlevel tourney players won't be replacing their loysoyas and DM5s, but what about the weekly player who plays the occasional tournament? This should excede the expectations of your average player. There is no harm is making the sport that much cheaper. These could and probably will be rentals. This will get more walkons to the fields without fear of being blown outa the water using the tippmanns on airball fields. I am pretty sure Ill be ordering a black one tomorrow, just gonna keep researching.


My thoughts exactly. I ordered a blue one last night. I need a gun that can handle a bit of abuse, shoot paint at a respectable rate with ease, and still leave some money in my account for paint.

[magman007]

Since everybody is getting in on the action, I'll throw my two cents down on the floor, roll the dice and see how they fall.

First, a quote from the review article that jumped right out at me:


Well THAT'S certainly not true... I can think of at least half a dozen quality markers that retail for under $300. So is the point that they can shoot 17 bps? First, I don't really see that as being the amazing part. I'll argue against the need for more than 10 bps 'till the cows come home, but this isn't the place for such a debate. Second, I don't think anyone has thought about the additional expenses that go with shooting 17 bps. Will it work at 17bps with CO2? Probably not. Will it shoot 17 bps with a standard non-motorized hopper? Deffinitely not. So right there you've added at least $300 to the price of the marker in order to achieve the advertized 17 bps. So $600 total. If the marker originally cost $500, you'd be making a total investment of $800. So while someone can look at a $300 marker as think they're saving 40%, they're really only saving 25%. Furthermore, tack on the price of a mask, pods and other equipment, you reduce your percentage savings by buying a lower-priced marker. Yes, a dollar is still a dollar, but certain things have a fixed price. If you consider other expenses associated with the sport, the marker (while most people see it as the highest-cost item) is actually only a small portion of the total cost of playing. Just paint for a year is significantly more expensive, as an example, than the cost of a $300 marker. Especially if you plan to shoot 17 bps!

So, is it an advantage to the consumer that the marker is less expensive? No, deffinitely not. But will consumers THINK that it is an advantage? Absolutely. That's what will sell these markers: The preception that the end consumer is getting a good deal. Can I say whether or not this marker will be reliable? No, I haven't ever seen one, much less shot it. I think those of us who make comments on the reliability are simply going off SP's very poor track record of quality. However, as many people have alluded to with complaints of looks, body design and even brand, there may be factors more important than cost, efficiency and reliability.

I'm not going to try to start a brand war here, but there is no question that BRAND plays an important part in many consumers' decisions regardless of the market. Think about the Honda vs. Harley Davidson debate... I don't care what your preference is and I won't give mine, but to motorcycle consumers, brand makes a BIG difference. Likewise, to paintball consumers, brand is important. Players place their entire identity with a specific style of play, marker type, setup and even the colors they wear. They will defend their brand decisions with vigor. Many paintballers (myself included) have a severe DISlike for SP. Why? I find their business practices unethical. Legal, perhaps, but that's not the issue. So we immediately begin with a negative opinion of all SP products. Might my opinion change if proved wrong? Yes. But right now, I'm skeptical.

Someone stated that if AGD had released the Ion, we would be worshipping it. That's doubtful for two reasons. First, AGD would never make this type of marker. It's not their style. That's why their fans admire them. "Because quality always shoots straight." Yes, it's a catchy slogan, but it has meaning. It means they choose quality and reliability over cost. It's why 'mags over the years have had stainless steel valves. It's expensive to machine stainless. It takes longer and requires more durable, expensive equipment. Only recently did they switch to aluminum. Why aluminum? Because they were finally able to get an alloy that lives up to their expectations of performance. All alloys are not the same simply because their base metal is aluminum. One masterful remark to this fact noted that SP uses "velveta strength" aluminum. I laughed for a full minute at that because it's true. As to the plastic construction being comparable to AGD's carbon fiber grip frames... I'm going to have to disagree. Yes, the carbon fibers are encased in polymer that could be termed 'plastic'. Glocks are technically 'plastic' too and we've all heard of their legendary reliability and performance. Just as all aluminum alloys are not the same, all plastics are not the same either. So, AGD would never produce the Ion and I think that's a bit of a moot point.

Second, if AGD did produce the Ion, I doubt anyone would be worshipping it. Sure it might receive a few nods that it would not get with SP, but that's because we expect high quality from AGD. We expect low quality from SP. By and large, however, I think AGD's following would be very disappointed if they released an Ion-like marker. AGD has always carried only a few models of marker and has produced them using quality, durable construction. As their slogan suggests, quality is more important than anything else. For AGD to produce an Ion-like marker, it would indicate that they had given up their commitment to quality. They would have 'sold-out' and it would be a real disappointment to me and many others.

Lastly, a word to all electro-toting 17 bps lovers: we like mechanical markers for two reasons. First, they are preferred because they are reliable and keep us confident in our equipment. Second, using a mechanical marker is a form of 'protest' to the path the industry is going in. You may say that electronic markers are reliable. Sure. After you get it wet? Maybe it's a well-protected electronic marker, but good ol' H2O will destroy it. Sorry, that's just not my style. Yes, I take care of my equipment and I doubt I would ever NEED its resilient properties, but I like that it's there. I'm never going to put 3k psi to my mag's valve... but I like the fact that it's durable enough to handle it. I like being able to buy an ill-cared-for second-hand mag that's 10 years old and never had the seals replaced once, gas it up and shoot it like it was new (well, almost new). And yes, I've done it as I'm sure many people have. And it worked like a charm. Did it shoot 17 bps? No... but it was quality, which is more important both to me and many people.

In summary, you have to ask yourself, is quality more important than price? Do I want something reliable or cheap? Am I going to play for a year or two and then hang it up or will I play for a long time? Will I still be shooting this marker in 10 years? If you're a budget-conscious kid that wants to play for a few years then quit; who wants to try running before he can walk; and doesn't care about brand loyalty or what any respectable paintball player would say to someone who uses SP equipment... Then get an Ion by all means.

As a proud owner of AGD, CCI and especially ICD equipment, I do not buy SP products (not even the freak set). I will encourage any prospective customer to steer away from SP. I do not trust the Ion and you will never see it or any other SP marker in my hands. That's my personal choice. Feel free to have your own opinions, but I stick by mine.




sorry, but you are completely off base with the electros and water comparison. Dan voils submerged a viking and it fired underwater for 12 minutes, untill the ram fuilled up with water. Bob sandifier submersed an angel, dried it off, and it still functioned. my e-mag i could do what ever the hell i wanted to, and it would still fire rain or shine, my matrixes? couldnt give a damn about water...

[Steelrat]

I think that’s the whole point and why people get so polarized when a product like this is discussed. I'll give you a great example. I played with a BKO for about 6 months prior to the arrival of my Viking. Not only did I not notice a difference in performance but the cheaper BKO had better milling and anno! The BKO was all annoed the same color and the milling was completely smooth and polished unlike the featherlite I dropped over 1200 bucks on. Now, the Viking to its credit was a lot more efficient, but that single feature alone was not worth the extra 1k I paid for it over the bko. I will never ever pay that much for a gun again, unless it is something truly rare otherwise it just the same as everything else out there, yes that even includes some uber 1 of 10 anno timmy or the RO viking.

What we fail to argue is where people weight their values with the facts. The problem with arguing diminishing returns is that it doesn’t take into account what each person values. Bob may want a killer anno, Joey wants to shoot "deeper into the tank", and Billy wants beam brake eyes and they are all willing to pay whatever it takes for THIER key feature. It is up to the manufacture to build a handful of profitable, not in all cases, products and hope that Bob, Joey, and Billy find all the features THEY value in their product.

Why are there so many different cars out there when 99% of car owners need a car that goes 55mph and get them to work reliably?

Ugh, the two-tone vikings.

[GT]

Ugh, the two-tone vikings.


my point was to shoot down vikings or excals, I will own and excal some day. If you read through the whole thing there might be something worht while in there.

gt

[Steelrat]

No, because a lot of players, myself included, are idiots and will pay extra money for fancy milling, annodizing, to use what Dynasty/Strange use, because it says Dye on it, because AKA made it, or for whatever stupid reason even if it has nothing to do with actual performance - the ability to put paintballs on your target.

They may loose a few Shocker/nerve sales... and gain a few sales from Timmies/DM5s/etc. but they are betting (I think correctly) that the arrogance of tournament players who would have bought high end markers will show through and they will buy them anyways.

I'm sure some tourney guys will buy them, but I still think that the gun was specifically designed to capture the low-end market. SP would not pump resources into a gun they intended to compete with their own shocker and nerve.

And there will probably be plenty of markers that still perform better than it does. There does not seem to be anything innovative about the Ion's design. What IS innovative is that they took that design and figured out a way to get the costs down so dramatically.

BTW, one of the big selling points of the Saturn Ion car is that you can put colored plastic pieces on the outside of the car to customize it. Isnt that an odd coincidence?

[Steelrat]

my point was to shoot down vikings or excals, I will own and excal some day. If you read through the whole thing there might be something worht while in there.

gt

Dude, I did read the whole thing, and I agreed with it. I just always found the two-tone viking issue to be entertaining, since its hilarious to see a $1300 gun with parts that dont even come close to matching. And this is coming from a major AKA fanboi. At no time did I think you were making a dig. In fact, you never even slammed the design, you just said you though the BKO did the same job for less, nothing wrong with that.

Maybe I should have tossed some sort of smiley on there to make it clear that I was lamenting the poorly-annoed vikings?

[Lohman446]

I'm sure some tourney guys will buy them, but I still think that the gun was specifically designed to capture the low-end market. SP would not pump resources into a gun they intended to compete with their own shocker and nerve.

And there will probably be plenty of markers that still perform better than it does. There does not seem to be anything innovative about the Ion's design. What IS innovative is that they took that design and figured out a way to get the costs down so dramatically.


I'll agree on the second point - the only innovation here was to make a cheap Shocker in function. And I know a lot of tourney guys won't buy them, because they will get labeled a NEWBIE gun... I don't think that lack of buying though will be due to the lack of the markers ability to perform in tournament situations, if it is as good in fuction, or close, to what the Shockers were.

Yes, I expect first run issues, after all it is an SP marker and iI have dealt with them in the past. I do expect quality control issues from past experience. I do not agree that this was rushed development - I think SP learned that lesson on the Shocker SFT - the Nerve did not have near the problems early Shockers did if I recall. I think SP has jsut been keeping this underwraps, very well, until they were ready to ship. As for SP competing with itself - I flat out asked someone when ordering a Rebound Shocker at SP why the Nerve was better.. they flat out told me it really wasn't. I would not be surprised to see the Nerve go quietly into the night, I expect that SP is not happy with the sales on it. I would not be suprised to see the Shocker drop to about $600 - so people may move up to it for the "all metal" construction from the Ion. That wuold still leave SP with there "team" and aftermarket Shockers to compete in the $1000 price range.

In the end.. I think the days of $1200 paintball markers are drawing to an end - I think in the next couple years companies will price adjust there flagships down - like the 05 Superstocker or whatever that WGP thing that looks amazingly like last years Karnivore did.

[SlartyBartFast]

Yes, I expect first run issues, after all it is an SP marker and iI have dealt with them in the past.

Every manufacturer has "first run issues".

Even the Xmag had problems....

[PumpPlayer]

sorry, but you are completely off base with the electros and water comparison. ... couldnt give a damn about water...

First off, no need to quote the ENTIRE POST. Wow... just the part you want to talk about. But aside from that, I'm sure electros are submersible. You'd be crazy to spend $1200 on a marker that the manufacturer didn't even have the common courtesy to seal the sensitive electronics with a simple neoprene or buna-n seal. After all, submarines have plenty of electronics on them, right? But that's not my point... I'm just pointing out the fact that you're putting additional components onto the marker than have a chance of failure (no matter how small). All other factors the same, simplicity is more reliable. You can't really argue against that. If there's less to break...

In a nod to the e-mag, it has a mechanical override. Funny how no other electro has one of THOSE nifty little features...

[Lohman446]

First off, no need to quote the ENTIRE POST. Wow... just the part you want to talk about. But aside from that, I'm sure electros are submersible. You'd be crazy to spend $1200 on a marker that the

In a nod to the e-mag, it has a mechanical override. Funny how no other electro has one of THOSE nifty little features...


We are not discussing a $1200 marker (though the Viking example was brought up) we are discussing a $300 marker. And that mechanical override is a pain - most of those using that marker for tournaments no longer have that feature available - I know I did not when I was playing PSP.

[Steelrat]

In a nod to the e-mag, it has a mechanical override. Funny how no other electro has one of THOSE nifty little features...

Much as I like that mechanical mode, I can't help thinking that was a design compromise, not a design feature. In a perfect world, a system like the devilmag, using a smaller solenoid, smaller battery, and a ULT seems like a better idea.

[dj89]

What would you HONESTLY say if AGD released this gun?


First off they wuld not. But if they did i would call it trash and i mighte even quit paintball

[Lohman446]

Just a thought.. these have plastic covers, as in covers that people will be able to custom dye themselves at home when clear/white ones are released

[Ydna]

Man people here are answering their own questions about SP cometing with itself. I can tell you becuase I know, this gun does not cost much less to produce than the Shocker, or Nerve. I of course can't give out specific numbers but you gotta know, the Nerve doesn't even cost more than the Shocker. It's all markup, just like all those other competing manufacturers' products.
The Ion has less parts overall, however the cost for materials as we all know isn't a concern.
But SP isn't going to purposely trash their Shocker sales like some people are inferring. That simply makes no sense. Hell, even the negative SP stereotypes are that they only care about money.

It is clearly not advantageous to buy the Ion instead of the Shocker becasue of performance. You get better efficiency, speed, consistency, and who knows what other adverbs with the more expensive guns. It's not designed the compete with the Shocker at all. Although there are a number of professional teams that will be using the Ion, it is true that the gun s geared for the netry-level market. Remember, the Impulse was discontinued becuase of this gun.

Since somebody mentioned the Nerve, yes it is true sales were not so how when the MSRP was $1200. However as a result it was dropped to one thou and things are much better in the sales dept for the Nerve. Just the way it turned out. (though you can still see people trying to sell used Nerves for $1100)

[Lohman446]

It is clearly not advantageous to buy the Ion instead of the Shocker becasue of performance. You get better efficiency, speed, consistency, and who knows what other adverbs with the more expensive guns. It's not designed the compete with the Shocker at all. Although there are a number of professional teams that will be using the Ion, it is true that the gun s geared for the netry-level market. Remember, the Impulse was discontinued becuase of this gun.

The only thing, IMO the Nerve had going for it was the ramping board. I was prepared to order a Nerve, had called SP to do it - when they told me Shockers were available with ramping boards - ordered a Shocker (I had one and liked it).

The Ion is not going to be as fast as the Shocker I agree- but I can't shoot +17BPS anyways and depend on ramp to get to 15BPS, so this marker in speed works for me

The Ion is not going to be as consistant as the Shocker - I agree but expect it has to do with that reg (which I expect to suck) - a good reg and barrel on that Ion and I think you will get acceptable consistency

Efficiency, agreed again but I expect a mod in the near future from someone. Then again, does efficiency really matter to me, it will be more than enough to empty my harness from what the sheet says.

I liked my Shockers, I sold them both to buy a DevilMag, I like this marker as a replacement and a backup and am very glad to see it.

Obviously I'll know more next week - I think I'm going into this with realistic expectations in performance. The Hype may hurt SP though if anyone fully beleives it... the Shocker isn't even all they hype it to be, and the Nerve, IMO even less so.

[Ydna]

The only real feature the Nerve has over the Nerve is the SMT Vision eye. It works a lot better then those of the Shocker/Imp. Not only does it work better, it breaks less....

But yeah, I concur with that you say. The only thing to remember is if you want a better (more complicated) reg you'll have to buy it. Don't want a one-piece barrel, you'll be buying that too. The reason the gun comes with half the crap it does is becuase of the then-Tippmann/Spyder owners. SP is wary of keeping things simple in that regard.

[Lohman446]

I expect the marketting around the Shocker to look at some other things now - all the hype of the performance and then adding some key lines to differntiate it from the Ion 20+BPS comments etc, the sleek look, etc. The things that by design the Ion may not have.

Then I expect
The time tested famous "Max-Flo" regulator to maximize performance
The tournament winning "All American" barrel
or some such

They will tout these features... then the Ion + $100 reg (about what a Max-flo is), + $80 barrel (about what the AA is) is looking about $500 in comparison to what the Shocker comes stock with, add $200 for milling and anno that the Ion does not have and the Shocker is right at its price point and not "blown away" by the Ion

So.. in consideration your right.. SP may have competing items, but I'm sure there marketting department will be able to show the "advantages" of the Shocker without badmouthing the Ion.

Me- I'm a beleiver in one piece barrels and may very well be happy with it, if not Impulse barrels are cheap. I'm also not going to spend $80 on a reg - I can get Torpedos cheaper. Then again, I didn't pay $300 for the Ion either. To me, I will end up with a good backup marker for under $350 - or two if they surprise me.

PS - I think they will sell a lot more Ions than Shockers... getting into that price point with most the features of a Shocker without harming Shocker sales took some thought, and it was a great show of creativeness that allowed SP there. I think, based on what I know, they have succeeded.

[slade]

However, putting the issue of the gun aside, steelrat and yourself are both wrong. Economic principle(and this applies to any industry regardles of size) has proven that in a capatilist, consumerist society, the old maxim of "you get what you pay for" is wrong. I'm sorry, but any reputable economist will explain this to you in painful detail.
I dont think i ever said "you get what you pay for," but since you bring that up, in most cases, you do. the higher priced item is not always worth more, but generally, if something costs more than another similar product, especially different products from the same company, it is because the more expensive product had more engineering and more work put into it, it is made of higher quality materials, and the tolerances and quality of work is better, thus making the performance and overall value better. There are certainly exclusions, especially concerning prestige brands, but that is true for the most part, especially when concerning two products from the same company.


Slade, the problem with your posts is that you're assuming EVERYTHING. You don't have any evidence to back it up. No matter one's positiong, pro or con, without evidence an argument doesn't hold.
my evidence that this will be a poor quality is that SP has been lacking in quality on some of their markers in the past, and this seems to be a marker where they tried to cut the production costs of the shocker in half. are you seriously saying that you think that will not have a negative effect on the quality of this marker? That seems to be quite a bit of evidence to me. evidence, mind you, no proof at this point. oh yeah, and also, as ryan stated, to cut costs they used very cheap (and thus soft) aluminum for the body, it most likely received a shoddy milling job with poor tolerances, and it is unanodized, meaning it is even weaker aluminum. what effect do you think that would have on this markers susceptibility to wear?


Why don't we all just cave in - "any gun but AGD guns are CRAP because they can't take enormously high input pressures for no real reason, and they utilize competitive marketing and product hype!"
where did that come from? although i do love my mag, there are certainly markers that would make me leave it in my gear bag as a backup. including, maybe, that AIM bodied timmy of yours.


of course, we'll fail to mention the half-naked pictures of Clare Benavides promoting ULE bodies, because when AGD does it, it's okay!!!
...and i mentioned the 20+ half-naked women advertising smart parts that you cannot flip through a pb magazine without seeing when?


You all know if AGD made this you would be dropping to the floor and bowing to Tom Kaye.
if Tom Kaye produced a marker with a plastic shell and overall seemed to be screaming "PRICE CUT", and advertised "trademark AGD accuracy and range," i would sell my mag.


The only reserve is, though, that wherever there's an SP-oponent whom will assume it's low-q until proven therwise, there is always an SP proponent thinking the opposite.
quite true, unfortunately. im one of the former. and i know too many people that are the latter.

[OmniM]

looks like a mag with a nokia skin on it....

[tyrion2323]

First off they wuld not. But if they did i would call it trash and i mighte even quit paintball

You'd really let yourself be herded around by a brand name?
You need to rethink your loyalties, bro.

[dj89]

You'd really let yourself be herded around by a brand name?
You need to rethink your loyalties, bro. Or just trying thinking in the first place.
My loyalties are with AGD I own 2 X-Mags,and an automag rt. If they did start making cheap markers like that than the only good markers left would be PPS.

[tyrion2323]

I thought you'd quit paintball altogether...?

[dj89]

I thought you'd quit paintball altogether...?
I mite............ But most likey not i would just be rocking my Xmags. Than if i wanted a new marker it would be a PPS Blazer.

[tony3]

Stop being such a damn ignorant agd lover. There are lots of other great companies out there. To get this gun to be only 300 you are going to have to cut some corners and use cheaper parts. They are going for a different market, mostly kids looking to buy their second gun possibly even first.

I highly doubt you'd critize AGD if they released that gun. You would say something to the effect, "I am glade agd is looking at a diferent side of the sport and r releasing a gun for players without much monney."

[Steelrat]

Stop being such a damn ignorant agd lover. There are lots of other great companies out there. To get this gun to be only 300 you are going to have to cut some corners and use cheaper parts. They are going for a different market, mostly kids looking to buy their second gun possibly even first.

I highly doubt you'd critize AGD if they released that gun. You would say something to the effect, "I am glade agd is looking at a diferent side of the sport and r releasing a gun for players without much monney."

Why, exactly, can't he love AGD? He has to agree with your opinions about what the best guns are? Let the man like what he likes, for whatever reasons he feels like giving.

[dj89]

I highly doubt you'd critize AGD if they released that gun. You would say something to the effect, "I am glade agd is looking at a diferent side of the sport and r releasing a gun for players without much monney."

No. Thats is what rogue and Tuna are for.

Thanks Steelrat

[ProX9]

My theory is that SP wants to capture the low end market to create a new entry into the Smartparts gun line, like the way most people become brand loyal in the early stages of life for things like cars, stores, etc... with the addition of this gun more people will buy this very early in their paintball involvement and then when they want to step it up a notch they turn to SP for their next gun also. It also leads to increased purchases in other areas of their products because people will want a freak or when the upgrades come out theyll want those too. Just what I think their reasoning might be for releasing a gun thats much cheaper than anything they currently sell now.

[Glickman]

My theory is that SP wants to capture the low end market to create a new entry into the Smartparts gun line, like the way most people become brand loyal in the early stages of certain things like cars, stores, etc... .

actually sounds like a pretty good business tactic. kinda like with some people and doctors. they arent totally happy with them, but they just stay with them for the sake of staying.


but "Let ye without sin throwth the first rock!"

*clear throat* i mean...

review comming this tuesday :D

[ProX9]

I figure the key to that tactic for something like paintball is to keep them happy enough to stay but not happy enough so they dont want to upgrade.

[SpecialBlend2786]

Ok, i've been looking around and i think i can say i'd get a Diablo Wrath over this.
http://store1.yimg.com/I/splatdogsdotcom_1831_289244
~UP TO 20 SHOTS PER SECOND
~AIR RAM OPERATING SYSTEM
~LCD TRIGGER FRAME WITH SHOT COUNTER, TIMER & MORE
~ERGONOMICALLY DESIGNED FORE GRIP REGULATOR
~STATE-OF-THE-ART LOW PRESSURE REGULATOR
~QUICK STRIP BOLT
~CUSTOM VERTICAL CLAMP FEED PORT
~NEW STYLE BALL DETENT
~ADJUSTABLE DOUBLE TRIGGER WITH ELECTRONIC SAFETY
~CUSTOM FADE ANODIZING AVAILABLE
~MICRO POLISHED CUSTOM PORTED BARREL
~DUAL BEAM BREAK EYES

[SOAD8789]

ooo that wrath is gonna have the same quality control issues that dragun/odyssey did. That gun is made in taiwan...like dragun/oddysey guns. big quality control issues there.

as for the ion, we can wait and see. big competition for the 05 BKO. The ion will probably be more successful, because SP is going to market the hell out of it, where ICD will sit there with a great gun for 350 dollars, and do almost no advertising. the BKO is going to be better though, and if i had to choose, ICD would get my vote.

[SpecialBlend2786]

ooo that wrath is gonna have the same quality control issues that dragun/odyssey did. That gun is made in taiwan...like dragun/oddysey guns. big quality control issues there.

as for the ion, we can wait and see. big competition for the 05 BKO. The ion will probably be more successful, because SP is going to market the hell out of it, where ICD will sit there with a great gun for 350 dollars, and do almost no advertising. the BKO is going to be better though, and if i had to choose, ICD would get my vote.

DOH! it looks so great though :(


YEha, the 05 BKO should be awesome, and a great deal as always. Looks like another SP/ICD battle

[tony3]

Why, exactly, can't he love AGD? He has to agree with your opinions about what the best guns are? Let the man like what he likes, for whatever reasons he feels like giving.

Love AGD all you want, but just don't diss a marker that you have never tried and think since it isn't from AGD it sucks.

[txaggie08]

steelrat, Its not the this gone ima rguing my point over. I know absolutley nothing about the actualy quality of this gun, and neither does anyone else on this forum in all likelyhood, I was arguing the point that something being cheap does not preclude it being of equal quality.

Yes companys DO manufacture goods cheaper and compete with themselves. It prootes spending on the "higher end " product. Look at what gm does ( or did with- the reason they stopped was more realted to age than price competitevness) with the j-body platform. The sunfire and the cavalier are the SAME car, but the sunfire is hyped up more, and usualy priced higher. the idea of ontroducing a low price high quality marker is actualy an extremely intelligent idea. not only are you going to sell high volume at lower prices, your going to draw in a crowd focused on getting the "better gun". Theoreticaly, if the cheaper gun could be made cost effeciently (wich god knows polymers are soooo much cheaper than metal), and a profit could be turned, you win on both fronts. That is basic economics also. Of course this whole thing may be just a dumping scheme to drive other maufacturers like icd into shutting down........unscroupulous but a possibility.

Does anyone know what this "plastic" body is made out of? if its what it looks like, its a polymer. if it is in reality its just as strong if not tougher than the metal. look at the glock. i mean im not a huge fan of "combat tupperware"(sorry i thought it was a funny knickname), but ive never seen strength issues with the handle(not under normal usage anyway.) I know people are freaking because its "plastic" but from an engineering stand point, the aluminum realy may not be necessary. if your realy worried about the strength of the body, build it from carbon fiber. They build everything from airplanes to freaking engines out of it(yes they are working on the concept.....heat is there big enemy). im curious to see what this "plastic" gun is actualy made out of.....(btw if someone know illd appreciate being told :) )

[trains are bad]

It's made out of plastic.

People make the mistake of thinking the glock is made out of something else besides plastic. It's really plastic. Thinking up some expensive name like 'polymer' is for marketing. Polymer vs. plastic is a distinction without a differenece. It's good quality plastic, engeneered to fit the application and stuff, but it's plastic.

I'm not saying the ION is good, but I have a $900 HK handgun made of plastic. In many cases there is no advantage to making a paintball marker out of aluminum except for shiny-thing syndrom that paintballers are so good at displaying.

[Ydna]

The body is NOT made from plastic.
It's made from aluminum and has plastic "milling" on the outside. The black sections you see in the picture are the "plastic" pieces around the colored aluminum.

[BD_Paintball]

Love AGD all you want, but just don't diss a marker that you have never tried and think since it isn't from AGD it sucks.

i have been saying that for some time now and i just got flamed so that is why i didnt say it in this thread. there is no reason why someone should not like a gun just because AGD didnt make it. im sure its a good gun for a great price. g/j tony3. props to u

[SAW]

Nero's quote comes to mind.

[txaggie08]

actualy on a molecular level polymer isnt realy what we think of as plastic.....

its close, but its realy not. I guess you might cal it a "type" of plastic, but the tensile strength of a real polymer is incredibly higher then what most people call plastic. alot of polymers arent even wholy peroleum based id understand it correctly

[shank the wiggles]

Smart Parts might get a lot of hate from people but I believe that this is the smartest thing they have ever done and they will make some fat lumps of cash off of it.