Preset Vs. Adjustable

[Mav D MagMan]

The battle rages on...

Well I've spent the better part of the last two weeks searching/researching and giving sellers false hopes that I'll buy their tanks up until I found a negative opinion of them etc. (Yes I've even watched the video of two different tanks at different operating pressures etc.)

Now, I'll ask some tech heads who hopefully have some experience with the products to give me some insight.

I am looking to slap a new tank on my "new" E-Mag, my ACI Bulldog II is not letting the sucker breathe well enough and I think it's time to move on. Now the argument tends to sway between:

1. You *need* an adjustable to give you the flowrate and output pressure necessary to feed your X-Valve.
2. If you don't mind loosing the adjustability for your trigger, a preset screw in will give you the air you need to play.

The foremost preset has got to be the Crossfire, many claim it can keep up well enough, but I'm fairly sure I outshot an egg the other day (it was tuned to maybe 16 bps? running a Worgass Stuby, which I would like to avoid owning), so this E-mag is definitely at the higher ends of the ROF... can any preset match this?

FYI My funds are limited (one reason I haven't just broke down and picked up an adjustable)

Thanks for hearing me out, I look forward to hearing some good opinions/info.

Mav

[phantomhitman]

preset is good to slap on and play. my crossfire hp preset keeps up fine with emags, as well as dm5s and ebladed cockers, without straving it or having dropoff. However, to get that reactive bounce that everyone like to play around with you need to go around or above 1000 psi. That is where the adjustable tanks come in. It is also nice to have the adjustibility in case you get another gun or someone else needs to use the tank. I am not going to link to my for sale page, but I have a 68-3 adjustable agd flatline for sale as well as a 68-3 crossfire screw for sale. PM me if interested.
/shameless plug

[deadbox101]

i would try either of the MacDev tanks The legionair(preset) comes in a 850 psi version or if u had the extra cash the conquest would be a nice option check it out at www.macdev.net

[Jack & Coke]

IMO,

You only *need* and adjustable is you're using a mech mag and want a lot of *reaction* feel in your trigger.

In all other cases, a preset is fine.

You will not notice any performance gain or feeling in the trigger between an adjustable and preset if you're using an emag.

"conquest would be a nice option check it out at www.macdev.net"

...conquests are not recommended for mags. Last time I spoke with macdev techs (last year), their conquest output is only 600-650 psi. x-valves *crave* 800-1,000.

[Z-man]

i would try either of the MacDev tanks The legionnaire(preset) comes in a 850 psi version or if u had the extra cash the conquest would be a nice option check it out at www.macdev.net

I would advise against that. The MacDev is a GREAT tank system and super light but it’s geared toward the mid and low pressure market. I have played with one and while it's fine for plinking, it's not much better than a preset if you get going.

I would suggest either a CenterFlag DynaFlow or their (soon to be available) 4CE reg), the Smart Parts Max-Flo systems or even the AGD 4500 series Flatlines. I have always said that you need an adjustable tank to really enjoy an E/X-Mag to it's full potential (ok the 4CE reg is the first preset/adjustable that does not fit that rule). This also seems to be one of those things that people waiver on, but if you spend the money, you won't regret it. It really is NIGHT and day. Especially with the E-Mag series markers you will notice a big difference in both hybrid mode (yes you would expect that) AND E mode.

Edit:


You will not notice any performance gain or feeling in the trigger between an adjustable and preset if you're using an emag.

I stand behind what I said. It's one of those thigns that if you you can feel and it does make a difference.

[Jack & Coke]

It really is NIGHT and day. Especially with the E-Mag series markers you will notice a big difference in both hybrid mode (yes you would expect that) AND E mode.

yes... for hybrid, but e mode? I didn't notice any performance difference between my Dynaflo and crossfire while in e-mode...

[White_Noise]

i have noticed a difference with emode on my mag. (only run in E now cause i pulled the trigger rod out) ikeep my dynaflow at about 1000psi. this makes the marker have more reactivty, allowing the solenoid to fire quicker i believe. plus you get better consistancy, as there is no chance the valve will be starved.

[11_Mile_TMaster]

I have an RT Pro/X valve... and even with the ULT an adjustable makes a pretty big difference. I think Air america still has Apocalypse setups on sale, for whatever it's worth. You may want to check their website.

[Jack & Coke]

...i keep my dynaflow at about 1000psi. this makes the marker have more reactivty, allowing the solenoid to fire quicker...




Funny... when I look in my emag, my noid is powered by a big ol' battery, not my air source. Maybe I got gipped! :eek:

;)

[Z-man]

yes... for hybrid, but e mode? I didn't notice any performance difference between my Dynaflo and Centerflag while in e-mode...

Between what and what? You mean a CenterFlag Preset and a CenterFlag DynaFlow? But yes I do assert that its a noticable differnce between a prestet like a Crossfire tank and an adjustable like a DynaFlow. It's a... cripser cleaner feel especially at the higher ROFs (and not even insanse speeds but 13-14bps you can tell.)

EDIT: you fixed your post ignore that top question :)

[deadbox101]

ah sorry i was under the impression the conquest to have outputs of 1000 and over, my fault. Got any idea when the 4ce is comin out i saw info on it awhile ago but never saw any realease dates.

[Jack & Coke]

Between what and what? You mean a CenterFlag Preset and a CenterFlag DynaFlow? But yes I do assert that its a noticable differnce between a prestet like a Crossfire tank and an adjustable like a DynaFlow. It's a... cripser cleaner feel especially at the higher ROFs (and not even insanse speeds but 13-14bps you can tell.)

EDIT: you fixed your post ignore that top question :)

yeah.. i mistyped.

anyway... I have both DynaFlo and Crossfire.

When I played with them each on my Tunamax, they *performed* the same while in e-mode.

You are correct though, when the DynaFlo is cranked up to 1,000+ psi, the gun does *feel* different than my preset Crossfire (800-825 psi i think)...

but the gun did not *perform* any different.

[phantomhitman]

does anyone BESIDES nitrocuk make a screw adjustable tank?
there are major major major issues witht eh adjustable nitroduck tanks, NO ONE BUY THEM!

[Z-man]

I believe that they do perform different. Now I made a little video on this a while back using Carbon's E-Mag. Gimme a bit of time to dig it up. The preset tends to chuff and misfire at the high ROF's, the preset does not. It is a performance difference. The video is here on AO but gimme a sec to go find it.

Edit: That was easy.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=154159

[Jack & Coke]

ah sorry i was under the impression the conquest to have outputs of 1000 and over, my fault...

no problem... :)

it's right in the link you gave:


from:http://www.macdev.net/us/index.htm

http://www.macdev.net/images/04Conquest.jpg

"The Conquest is a fully featured, high flow, low pressure adjustable air system..."

[Jack & Coke]

I believe that they do perform different. Now I made a little video on this a while back using Carbon's E-Mag. Gimme a bit of time to dig it up. The preset tends to chuff and misfire at the high ROF's, the preset does not. It is a performance difference. The video is here on AO but gimme a sec to go find it.

Edit: That was easy.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=154159

Strange... my emag never chuffs while using hybrid and my pre-set crossfire. :confused:

Mybe I'm not 'hybriding' fast enough... ;)

[Steelrat]

I believe that they do perform different. Now I made a little video on this a while back using Carbon's E-Mag. Gimme a bit of time to dig it up. The preset tends to chuff and misfire at the high ROF's, the preset does not. It is a performance difference. The video is here on AO but gimme a sec to go find it.

Edit: That was easy.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=154159

Is that because of the output, or the flow? I'm thinking flow, in which case is just an indicator that the dynaflow kicks that particular preset's butt :headbang:

Oh, and like Z-man stated, Conquests and mags dont mix. Good tanks, but not for mags.

[Steelrat]

Strange... my emag never chuffs while using hybrid and my pre-set crossfire. :confused:

Mybe I'm not 'hybriding' fast enough... ;)

*cough*Z-mancheats*cough*bouncing20bps*cough*

[Z-man]

you just can't back me up without that can you :p It's too tempting. So maybe I used Hybrid mode every few games... but you know it was RARE if ever :D

[Mav D MagMan]

Thanks for all of the info guys, and like I mentioned I have already seen the video Z-Man, of an E-mag being fed too many variables. ;) It is obvious that there will be a difference between 800 psi and 1k at that ROF, no matter what's feeding the air.

I've read over the thread a few times and still haven't hit too much concrete evidence, or reason to go one way or the other.

I see that there are claims of performance differences/feel (whatever that is)/tastes and I'm appreciating all the input. So far I see some positive information that the Crossfire can in fact keep up with a normally fired E-mag without any adverse effects, is this true?

[Z-man]

Thanks for all of the info guys, and like I mentioned I have already seen the video Z-Man, of an E-mag being fed too many variables. ;) It is obvious that there will be a difference between 800 psi and 1k at that ROF, no matter what's feeding the air.

I've read over the thread a few times and still haven't hit too much concrete evidence, or reason to go one way or the other.

I see that there are claims of performance differences/feel (whatever that is)/tastes and I'm appreciating all the input. So far I see some positive information that the Crossfire can in fact keep up with a normally fired E-mag without any adverse effects, is this true?

Did you watch the video? That's closer to hard evidence from my point of view ;)

http://www.800tag5150.com/videos/preset_vs_adjust.mov

[Jack & Coke]

So far I see some positive information that the Crossfire can in fact keep up with a normally fired E-mag without any adverse effects, is this true?



YES, from my experience (EMAG + Crossfire), this is true.

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=59670&stc=1

:shooting:

[Mav D MagMan]

Yes for the third time, I DID watch that video. I thought it was a great view of how much you could effect the highest levels of performance and the first reason I probably missed out on a good deal on a Crossfire stubby.

However, the differences in the pressure as well as the other factors that could have effected the test sway me from believing that you have proven either reg is more/less effective (at least flow wise, if not adjustability). Show me the adjustable performing at 800 and I'll be impressed ;)

Thanks J&C and Z-Man as well as everyone else who have already posted.

Will

[Z-man]

YES, from my experience (EMAG + Crossfire), this is true.

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=59670&stc=1

:shooting:

Bah you dont have a video, just eye candy! 2 can play at that game..

But in all seriousness that you asked "So far I see some positive information that the Crossfire can in fact keep up with a normally fired E-mag without any adverse effects, is this true?"

Abswer any tank will keep up until a certain speed where it starts starving the RT reg. If you are like say, CableDawg :P (you know I love you man) who never breaks 7bps on his X-Mag, heck you CAN run a MacDev tank or a preset or just about anything your heart desires.

Let's put it in simple terms. The perset you CAN outrun if you have decent fast fingers. The high flow adjustable, you wont PERIOD. What's right for you? Well if you cannot afford an adjustable, that ends that doesn't it? If you want to get a preset, you will get it no matter what is said. You have my opinion, the resons I think so and a video to demo it. Your call. Either way the gun is going to work.

[Z-man]

However, the differences in the pressure as well as the other factors that could have effected the test sway me from believing that you have proven either reg is more/less effective (at least flow wise, if not adjustability). Show me the adjustable performing at 800 and I'll be impressed ;)

You have hit the core reason to get an adjustable tank. the fact that you CAN adjust it. sure the Mag runs on 800psi but why run it at that when it runs nicer at 850-900-950+? the adjustable gives you the ability to tune it. Is there some reason you want to run 800? I mean there is no downside to running it higher so saying that you want an adjustable that performs that way at 850 seems beside the point. Can you explain a bit on that perhaps?

[Jack & Coke]

Z-man... i'm just showing the pic so he knows I have an EMAG and CROSSFIRE.

Not to sway his opinion with "eye candy" :rolleyes:

I could care less if he buys a DynaFlo or Crossfire... (i have both! ;))

From my experience, I have never "starved" my gun while using the CROSSFIRE.

Maybe you got a dud that needs to be rebuilt?

You should call Crossfire and let them know... I'm sure they'd be interested in your video.

[Mav D MagMan]

Well, I never said that I can't afford an adjustable, you're assuming that by limmited funds I mean broke/poor. In the Air Force we do a lot of benefit/cost and when even a used adjustable tank costs more than twice as much I am paid a month, I have to really weigh the benefits.

I am all for supplying my investment (EMag) with the best. If I can fit my needs with a Crossfire, why drop the money (and add the weight) of an adjustable.

Sorry if my point was muddled in my earlier post... I just wanted to point out that at those speeds the 800 psi output tank was starving the mag and the 1k wasn't. However, I was just curious that if the adjustable was really the better design, it could still give the neccessary flow rate to sustain such a high rate of fire at an 800 psi output. I'm not the first to wonder, another did when you posted that video in the first place.

Either way, my E-mag is not firing at the very limits of its performance (where you were in that video) and therefore I really can't apply it to my situation.

Will

*Edit* btw, my E's better looking, he hasn't swayed me a bit! ;)

[Z-man]

Z-man... i'm just showing the pic so he knows I have an EMAG and CROSSFIRE.

Not to sway his opinion with "eye candy" :rolleyes:

I could care less if he buys a DynaFlo or Crossfire... (i have both! ;))

Oh come on you know I am just playing.



From my experience, I have never "starved" my gun while using the CROSSFIRE.

Maybe you got a dud that needs to be rebuilt?

You should call Crossfire and let them know... I'm sure they'd be interested in your video.

I *think* carbon's E-Mag is in spec but yes that was only 1 gun. My own (ex) SFL behaved in a similar fashon so I am inclined to thing this way. But if you did not have this issue then I have to conclude that either

1- I have been testing Mags that happen to perform poorly with presets

2- You don't shoot at speeds that overtax your preset.

I dunno. :confused:

[Z-man]

Well, I never said that I can't afford an adjustable, you're assuming that by limmited funds I mean broke/poor.

Nope I don't assume that. Many people budget their spendings and a pricy adjustable is not in the buget. Whatever the reasons, if you don't want/can't get it, you wan't that's all (nothing accusatory in there)


However, I was just curious that if the adjustable was really the better design, it could still give the neccessary flow rate to sustain such a high rate of fire at an 800 psi output. I'm not the first to wonder, another did when you posted that video in the first place.

That is a very good question that I have wondered about myself. I would LIKE to say that and to some degree I think that is true. The most obvious example is shown in my rapid-fire videos. If all regs were basically the same, then (concerning adjustable tanks) they should all start rapid-firing on the game gun at about the same pressure (900, 950 whatever).

But this is not the case. The 3K AGD Flatline system had to be pumped up to over 1000psi before it would even think about rapid-firing, but the 4500psi AGD system would kick in around 950psi. The Max-Flo system I ran would get into rapid-fire around 900psi and by 1000psi it was going NUTZ (compared to 1000psi on the 3K Flatline).

Besides input pressure there is also recharge rate of the regulator to consider. Just because you put 100+psi into the valve does not mean that it will keep up with the RT valve if the tank reg is slow. The pressure can drop down to 7-800 if you get going fast enough and then you start to chuff until you give the reg a moment to catch up.

Additionally, the volume of air that is stored up between the tank reg and the RT valve will affect things. As an extreme example, lets say that you have the tank connected to the RT valve directly; the output of the tank is screwed into the RT valve back. Whenever the marker fires the valve is immediately waiting on the tank reg to feed it and the speed at which it can refill will most immediately determine how fast the RT valve will cycle.

Now let's say you had the tank set up normal but it feeds into a gas through, but this gas through was like 2 cubic feet in volume; then you have a different situation. While the tank has to refill the air that RT valve shoots, there is a HUGE buffer of pressurized air that can instantly refill the chamber and each shot, overall drops the pressure in the that gas through only a little bit.

So there are many factors to think about but the one point that I come back to is this. Regardless of all those other factors, a high flow adjustable tank overcomes any and all of those variables and gives you that performance in all configurations. It's the "for sure" solution and that is why I like it.

[gc82000]

*cough*Z-mancheats*cough*bouncing20bps*cough*
:rofl: man and you guys are friends. My own friends dont even hit that low. :spit_take

[REDRT]

My brother uses either his PMI adj or what I think is a Crossfire preset both work fine on his Emag. I use an Armageddon with mine. I like it. My Flatline was a disapointment, but many have good luck with them. Adjustables gives you the option of running higher psi which can make any rt valve really sing. Not all regs are created equal though. For instance my brothers Crossfire will kick the snot out of my Flatline adjustible, but the Armageddon seems to smoke them all. AirAmerica ajustable air systems have always treated me well. So that is what I stick with.

[mark_1791]

If youre not going to be shooting fast enough to notice, buy a preset. Sure, they might have lower flow, but if that low flow is more than enough, who cares?

from what you have said, i think you should buy a crossfire

[Steelrat]

A HUGE advantage that adjustables have over presets is that they can be adapted to any gun. Some guns can only run well on low pressure, some can only run on high-pressure. Gun, that really only matters if you switch guns a lot (like me) but it is an advantage. That new centerflag, the pseudo-adjustable, looks sharp, and is only a lil bit more expensive than the crossfire.

[Evil1]

does anyone BESIDES nitrocuk make a screw adjustable tank?
there are major major major issues witht eh adjustable nitroduck tanks, NO ONE BUY THEM!

What kind of issues do they have? I've had one for over 2 years now and I have never had a problem with it. Its my favorite tank actually and everyone I know who owns them like them as well.

[Jack & Coke]

Zak,

I think something is wrong with your friend's hybrid setup...

(rod length relationship to HES pick up point?)

He's only shooting 12-13 bps ...and very erratically too - no steady rhythm):

http://img206.exs.cx/img206/811/zakcrossfire5sb.jpg
Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting (http://www.imageshack.us)

Here's a video of me shooting emag hybrid @ around 15 bps with a Crossfire preset... with no chuffs, no starving, and no problems...

This is not mech "sweetspotting" - mech sweetspotting requires around 950+ psi and is faster than hybrid.

video:

-emag
-crossfire 72/4500 stubby
-hybrid mode
-old 'non buffering' 2.4 software

http://s35.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2XGV8PL9ESXDL2AQHI2FIBQU99

NOTE: The link will expire in 7 days and will be available for a limited number of downloads.

Can someone host it for a few days?

thanks :cheers:

[Jack & Coke]

If youre not going to be shooting fast enough to notice, buy a preset. Sure, they might have lower flow, but if that low flow is more than enough, who cares?

from what you have said, i think you should buy a crossfire

great advice!

[phantomhitman]

What kind of issues do they have? I've had one for over 2 years now and I have never had a problem with it. Its my favorite tank actually and everyone I know who owns them like them as well.
few months back at a major tourney, the bottle actually detached from the reg! This was during a game, while the tank was in use on a gun. The stopped the tourney for a brief time, took the tank, and tried to hush it up. Nitroduck people it was not a major problem and that they would try to make a better version of it. The person posted on pbnation about the whole account of what happened.
I really wanted to get an adj nitro duck, but after reading that you can forget it.
life>adj srew in tank

[Jack & Coke]

The two things i didn't care for on the Nitro Duck screw-in adjustable tank were:


adjustability range only goes up to 925-950 psi. If you're going to buy an adjustable tank for a mag, then at least have it be able to go up to 1,000-1,100 psi...
Because of the design, the screw in reg will always wobble a little bit... with the tank crewed in tight to the gun, the tank still has a little wobble in it. Very unsettling...:tard:

[jtoothman25]

DO NOT BUY A CROSSFIRE!!!! When they get to about 1200 PSI, they can't keep up with a constant 12 bps.... Seen same problem on two different markers and two different tanks.

[phantomhitman]

just like the above statement everyone has different issues. I can shoot my old 68-3 crossfire at 20 bps (musashi 3 ramped) all the way down to about 100 psi before its starts dropping off. i have never had issues with eitehr of the crossfires i have owned. the only issues i have seen with tanks are teh adj nitroducks, angel airs, wgp tanks, and evil tanks.

[jtoothman25]

68 ci, 4500 psi crossfire