PSP Impliments 15 BPS Cap; WAS Responds.

[Scooter/Cootie]

Check it out.

PSP 15 BPS Cap:
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=815997

Section 3.5 in PSP Rule Book at www.pspevents.com/rules/PSPEQRules1.05.doc


Wicked Air Sportz (WAS) Response:
http://www.68caliber.com/news/tournament/story04706.php

[Lohman446]

Anyone else find it ironic, that WAS - who many implicate in the prevelance of the current "bounce" situation due to the 0 debounce setting - is the one taking a stance on this?

PS - many implicate does not mean it was there fault and others had not done it first, or that others would not have done it. However, one has to at least accept that a 0 debounce setting did have something to do with bouncey markers.

[Lurker27]

Don't pin it on WAS, debounce over 15 IS noticeable. Adjustable can lead to a very fast and legal setup.

SP started bounce, not WAS.

[Lohman446]

Don't pin it on WAS, debounce over 15 IS noticeable. Adjustable can lead to a very fast and legal setup.

SP started bounce, not WAS.


I wasn't trying to pin it on WAS... there are a lot of people - players, promotors, manufacturers etc. that are responsible for where we are today, but don't try to paint WAS as having perfectly clean hands either.

[Vanced]

I like the sound of their reply...

But anything comming of it... That is still to be seen...

[Muzikman]

Smart Parts introduced Ramping, not bounce.

WAS started bounce.

[Muzikman]

Wow, ok, I just finished reading the new rule and WAS's statement. This is the first time I ever agreed with WAS. When organizations started talking about a 15 bps limit and allowing full-auto and ramping, I questioned what the insurance companies were thinking. WAS seems to think that they do not know, which I wouldn't find hard to believe. I also think that what WAS is talking about doing will hurt and help the industry. If you make the insurance companies scared enough not to insure an event, then maybe we will see a change in the ROF wars that are going on between companies. The problem is how do you police it.

[Lohman446]

My opinion on this - if you convince the insurance company that 15 3 gram projectiles at 300FPS on a single target has a realistic chance of industry when is the insurance company going to decide that if 15 can do it, 1 can do it. IMO if there is a serious danger to 15 then we have to be worried about 1.

Umm.. basically I don't think WAS can show any danger to 15BPS fire rates... but I don't think that PSP can show scientifically its safety either. I could be very wrong.

[Muzikman]

The problem is there have been injuries already in the sport that doctors accuse the repeated hits to the same area of the body as the reason (namely the head). So WAS would actually have some weapons of proof. Until safety gear gets better, the higher rates of fire are going to be more dangerous.

I would love to get HiTech and Beemers opinion on there....where you guys at?

[Scott Hudnall]

That's incredibly interesting reading ..... the WAS reply, that is.

I found it interesting that NPPL studies have shown that most tournament players only shoot 9 to 11 bps....hmmm......with only a few being able to sustain 15+ bps. That blows the ROF argument out of the water, on all fronts.

Insurance and ASTM standards (I sincerely hope) will soon dictate the outcome of this debate. No promotor is going to be stupid enough to hold a tourny with no insurance.



FROM THE WAS REPLY:
"We stated a concern that ramping is unsafe. The PSP stated that they needed to end cheating and believes that "they [players] can average at least 15 - 20 balls a second. And that is just what most of them average." This is simply not the case. As proven by the NPPL's ballistics chrono, tournament paintball players shoot an average of 9-11 bps. There are only a handful of players that can actually sustain 15+ bps for any length of time. If the PSP believes that by having markers all shooting at a 15 bps pace they can determine if one of them is shooting 20 bps in bursts, they are fooling themselves. It has already been proven on the field that the PACT timers can not be used during game play because they measure sound, and the background noise (of other markers) false triggers them. There simply is no way to enforce any type of rate of fire rule, or determine if the ramping rule is even being adhered to. This opens the door to cheat modes far more extreme that anything previously used. No longer will a cheater have to be careful about their marker "going off". Nobody will even think twice about it."

[Vanced]

WAS statement is good rehtoric as I said...

But my opinion about all the E-Assisted High ROF issues out there is this... It is going to take enough people getting seriously hurt due to it and enough judges, lawyers, and insurance to put a stop to it...

One Multi-Million Dollar Lawsuit at a time...

Because the single average player, promotor, and idustry exec. won't and probably can't... unless by some miracle of the paintball gods they would actually band together , form a set of standards and protocol and stick to it... and ENFORCE THE :cuss: OUT OF IT !

Because the so called "excessive" rates of fire are here to stay.. weather they are rule book legal or not until something forces it to stop, or it stops being very profitable...

[Army]

Ironic. Please help me if I'm wrong...

...Didn't WAS/Drew advocate bounce as the next best thing in boards, giving you the ability to fire insane high rates despite your slow clumsy fingers. And didn't we, as the AO community, soundly deride him for his claims of BPS and such?

So now he wants to be the hero in all this?

Puhleeze! :nono:

[Lohman446]

Ironic. Please help me if I'm wrong...

...Didn't WAS/Drew advocate bounce as the next best thing in boards, giving you the ability to fire insane high rates despite your slow clumsy fingers. And didn't we, as the AO community, soundly deride him for his claims of BPS and such?

So now he wants to be the hero in all this?

Puhleeze! :nono:


I tried to point out the irony twice - you did a better job of it

[shartley]

I posted this in the OTHER thread to....

Okay, I read it. But he makes it seem like the PSP is saying ALL MARKERS MUST RAMP. And he is taking a stand and refusing to follow that rule. Sorry, but that is not what PSP said. There is a difference between saying you will not make ramping illegal, and saying that if your marker does not ramp it is illegal.

So unless I am missing something, the following is moot since I didn’t see anywhere that it stated that all markers MUST ramp or be considered illegal.


We will be making new firmware available for the Intimidator and Viking Equalizer boards that basically is the same firmware we have been using for the Impulse, NME, Pimp Kit, etc. for quite some time. This new firmware allows the rate of fire to be set from 10 to 30 bps. However, we will not comply with the ramping rule.

I agree that ramping should not be allowed, but from what I have read allowing it is a far cry from saying you MUST have it…. as he is trying to make it look. Not doing something that is not even required is far from being the rebel who will “not comply” with a rule that does not exist.

It has been a very long day so I may have missed something. Did I miss something?

(hold on….. checking something….. )

I just went and actually READ the PSP rules and can find NO rule that states that a marker MUST ramp. There are rules which dictate the amount of shots per trigger pull, but these rules do not state that you MUST have a marker that does any more than one shot per pull of the trigger.

Again, unless I am somehow missing something.

I understand the popularity that stating such outrage can bring to WAS, but isn’t that a bit dishonest in itself? To claim to not comply with a rule that simply does not exist while wrapping it up in a lot of techno speak IMHO is just typical WAS form.

Please, tell me I am missing something…. And then show me what it was. Thanks.

[Lohman446]

[QUOTE=shartley]I understand the popularity that stating such outrage can bring to WAS, but isn’t that a bit dishonest in itself? [QUOTE]

WAS and dishonest in the same sentence - ok, not 100% honest, answers your question Sam

[Muzikman]

Doesn't matter if the rules state that you must have it or not. WAS is taking the stance that if you allow it, everyone will want it. And you know damn well that every player at a PSP event will have this feature in their guns if they can. By WAS not making boards that ramp, no one will buy them when they can go to the next company that will sell them a ramping board.

[SlartyBartFast]

I think it has more to do with WAS not being able to get a bps cap into their artificial intelligence. :p

That man is so full of it that it's amazing that it doesn't ooze out of his ears.

Bounce/Debounce were never things that a user had to play with.

But give credit where credit is due. The first A-holes to put a techno-babble spin on an electronic marker that fired more times than the trigger was conciously pulled (due to electronic trigger bounce) was SP and the "turbo" mode.

WAS just brought the techno-babble to a new level of stupidity by trying to say it was for bounce of the whole marker moving and causing the gun to cycle/fire.

Or, it may be another reason WAS is against it. All the 'special' WAS boards lose all advantage once all boards are allowed to bounce/turbo/ewhatever and the programming/function doesn't have to be hidden.

I'd like to see one shred of evidence that WAS lived up to this pathetic claim of safety concern with their products.

I also LOVE the reference to the Dumb- :cuss: WDP "can't program a computer chip patent". What an :cuss: joke.

BRING ON THE CLOWNS! :dance:

[Tunaman]

I just hope the guys that are installing these no-astm approved boards have plenty of insurance. ;)

[shartley]

Doesn't matter if the rules state that you must have it or not. WAS is taking the stance that if you allow it, everyone will want it. And you know damn well that every player at a PSP event will have this feature in their guns if they can. By WAS not making boards that ramp, no one will buy them when they can go to the next company that will sell them a ramping board.
WAS is always so technical and “word perfect”, so what you said really is not what HE said. He said he would not “comply” with their rules, not that he would not make boards that ramped. There is a difference.

He also makes it sound like the PSP has a rule that demands ramping. Which they do not. Yes, players will want the most advantage they can get, and if that is a ramping board that is what they will get. But that does not force anyone to make the boards if they don’t want to. Free will and all. It is still allowed. ;)

The only way he can NOT “comply” with their rules is if he made a board that allowed a player to shoot more than 3 shots per activation of the trigger. By making boards that don’t allow ramping, and that don’t allow more than 15BPS he IS complying with their rules. No matter how “defiant” he wants to act.

I know that what YOU are saying is what he is doing. But it is not what he SAID. Not by a long shot. And that was my point. :cheers:

[Beemer]

Ya, I read the whole thread so I wont quote everybody.

ASTM and Insurance you forgot about the CPSC, not sure if their investagation is still on going. This is gonna get better with the standards when the lawyers are done.

How can you promote or support one ASTM Standard and not follow the rest yourself????
ASTM standard = 1 shot 1 pull..........NO OTHER MODES. Search my other posts and Threads on ASTM Standards and Insurance etc. They didnt go to far cause nobody cares but they will sooner or later.

It IS only the one shot that could do the damage.[thats why you shoud think about full head gear if you want to push the envelope on bps and closer RANGE games] A 3g paintball at 300fp = 13.2 joules[correct me if im wrong] Joules = amount of impact energy. Now let your bud shoot you in the head at 280fps at 20 ft. 10 times in 1 sec
would
you let him do it at 300fps at 10ft, 15 times in 1sec
[bunker or run thru] I would but not with the safety gear we have today. Look at whats not covered by todays gear.[from the shoulders up] Soft tissue exposer.

Wait I just made a thread on whos liable.
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=165257


Heres another one

6.5.2 All paintball markers intended to be used with refillable
cylinders shall be able to withstand input pressure of three
thousand pounds per square inch 207 bar (3000 psi) without
catastrophic failure. Leaking in a manner which would not
cause injury to the operator shall not constitute failure.

[Beemer]

Ya Muzikman your right as rof goes up saftey factor goes down.

Nows wheres Ronin and Rapid. Hey Ronin wanna play chicken little?

[Automaggin2]

I believe the first modes of ramping came from the old Smart Parts Shocker Turbos. It registered 1.5 pulls per trigger pull.

[REDRT]

I think that everyone of us has take multiple hits to the head. I know I have and I'm fine. :tard:

Every time we step on the field we take the chance of getting hurt. 99% of you will disagree, but Why change what isn't broke. The next move will be wearing goggles and using blow guns. Maybe the whole thing should end and go back to Lazer Tag. Wouldn't that be :cuss: fun!

[CrazyJake]

LOL I know that I'll never play PSP as long as these rules are in effect. I'd be scared to bunker people. I mean at that close of range it's dangerous. It's human reaction thats scary in that situation. If you bunker a person and they flinch, odds are they may just hold down the trigger as you come around and you could end up getting shot more times then anyone would like. I think ramping is dangerous because I'm not sure if goggles can even take that much at close ranges. I love paintball but when you can just ramp it takes away the cool skill and also basically turns the game into sitting back and rocking the trigger.
We may as well bring back lawn darts while we're at it LOL

[Lohman446]

LOL I know that I'll never play PSP as long as these rules are in effect. I'd be scared to bunker people. I mean at that close of range it's dangerous. It's human reaction thats scary in that situation. If you bunker a person and they flinch, odds are they may just hold down the trigger as you come around and you could end up getting shot more times then anyone would like. I think ramping is dangerous because I'm not sure if goggles can even take that much at close ranges. I love paintball but when you can just ramp it takes away the cool skill and also basically turns the game into sitting back and rocking the trigger.
We may as well bring back lawn darts while we're at it LOL

If they flinch and hold down the legal trigger you will get shot once - possibly three times if they have already fired twice that second.

As for the lack of movement... nah, watch the pros play there is no lack of movement. Its people without other skills that depend solely on the ability to shoot fast that make the game boring.

[PBX Ronin 23]

If what Drew is saying about his insurance carrier not willing to provide product liability insurance if his boards have the Ramping Mode, then what are the "other" after market board manufacturers in the industry who have Ramping and other cheater modes on their boards doing for product liability insurance?

There is either some inconsistencies with Drew's insurance carrier's underwriting compared to other carriers OR these other board manufacturers are going out selling their products without the adequate insurance coverage to cover their liability.

If it's the later, do we have another proliferation of "cowboy" business people making products without considering the liabilities associated with those products?

Hmmmm. :confused: :rolleyes:

[tek4dr]

Its gonna be interesting this year to see the out come of the new rule...

[Toxic Dave]

What alot of you guys don't understand is that the guns capped at 15 bps even with ramp are considerably slower than the markers the majority of players were using last year in the PSP for sure (since that's where my team played) and I'm assuming the same is to be said for the NPPL and and any other league where electronic guns are used.

2 years ago I stared to notice that certain teams had significant rof advantages, and they tended to dominate the division we played in (d2 x ball) there were games that we couldn't get out of the starting box without a wall of paint hitting us against Twisted in Chicago. By the middle of the year this past season EVERYBODY had guns that were capable of the same thing, some were legal, and some weren't. Refs and Mgmt. did their best to stop it, but it's impossible to catch everybody. The NPPL's robot is a neat marketing ploy, but they have one robot for thousands of players, and it ain't gonna catch a gun that does anything to hide it's ramp.

WAS can make all the press releases he wants, fact is he helped create the problem. His real beef is that he didn't pay attention enough to get chips/ boards/ software ready for the rule and he got left behind by those that did like Tadao and Advantage.

If that guy really thinks that the PSP is running a series without Insurance, he's obviously cracked. Knowing the people who own the PSP and the people who run it fairly well, I'm saying it's an impossibilty.

dave

[mark_1791]

We believe that people who cheat should be banned from the sanctioning body's events indefinitely, and the team suspended for the year. If you want to take the chance, then do it. It wouldn't be long before the cheaters were gone or straightened up.
AMEN to that!

[Lohman446]

There is either some inconsistencies with Drew's insurance carrier's underwriting compared to other carriers OR these other board manufacturers are going out selling their products without the adequate insurance coverage to cover their liability.

:

Or Jim Drew isn't looking hard for insurance - or isn't telling the complete and honest truth :wow: no way... Jim Drew be less than honest to promote his business... now way :wow: oh, wait, this is Jim Drew we are discussing... I pick option three :D

[Beemer]

There is either some inconsistencies with Drew's insurance carrier's underwriting compared to other carriers OR these other board manufacturers are going out selling their products without the adequate insurance coverage to cover their liability.

If it's the later, do we have another proliferation of "cowboy" business people making products without considering the liabilities associated with those products?

Hmmmm.

Or both, which is what I think is the case. Just because you have insurance doesnt mean its Adequate. The first is easy to prove and I wouldnt doubt the second[ding ding] note to self, talk to insurance companies and laywer again and the ASTM and CPSC.

So lets see................ I want to go play in a major tournment where I know for a Fact they arent following ASTM SAFETY gun Standards and the insurance MIGHT be in Adequate. Ok Where does my team sign up :shooting: :clap: :bounce:

As for his comments on the standards he is off a little, unless they changed them on the last meeting this past November. The last I knew Bud was the chairman of the subcommittee, but that was middle last summer and I am not sure of any changes.
ASTM was, is 300fps semi only. 1 shot 1 pull NO MODES

[cledford]

I tried to point out the irony twice - you did a better job of it


WAS is just trying to keep a lock on his corner of the market - he cares nothing about the sport. If "ramping" and "full-auto" are banned, then his competition dries up and everyone goes back to buying his particular version of the cheater board - keeping him fat and happy.

This is only self serving IMHO.

-Calvin

[Lohman446]

So lets see................ I want to go play in a major tournment where I know for a Fact they arent following ASTM SAFETY gun Standards and the insurance MIGHT be in Adequate. Ok Where does my team sign up :shooting: :clap: :bounce:


I insisted on a clarification from my insurance company last year. I'm not going to go into policy limits but I beleive myself to be adequately covered for anything that could occur involving a single person in paintball. As long as the act is not with the intent to harm someone, with the exception of they will cover me in a justified shooting (firearm), then I'm good. We specifically discussed paintball (no I did not bring up modes of fire) and the decision they came back to me with was my intent is what mattered - if I shot someone with the intent to seriously injure them I am not covered, if it is part of the game I am.

[Beemer]

I insisted on a clarification from my insurance company last year. I'm not going to go into policy limits but I beleive myself to be adequately covered for anything that could occur involving a single person in paintball. As long as the act is not with the intent to harm someone, with the exception of they will cover me in a justified shooting (firearm), then I'm good. We specifically discussed paintball (no I did not bring up modes of fire) if I shot someone with the intent to seriously injure them I am not covered, if it is part of the game I am.

Well that sounds good for you. Now mention modes and guns that dont meet known safety standards and see what they say. You have a special fire arms policy or a rider on another policy? What about everybody else. I should put this in the whos liable thread. I think some home owners around here might be surprised to find out they arent covered or could be held responsible. Wanna gamble with the House?

So lets see................We shorten the game range[smaller field] keep FPS the same and increase the ROF using guns that dont meet known safety standards and we dont increase the SAFETY gear[better head neck and body protection] Ya like I said where do we sign up.


If I go to a field that doesnt care I
1. Leave
2. Out play you with skill
3. Get my Butt kicked

All of the above has happened.

Just so you know I only play 1 shot 1 pull. Its a liability, responsibility thing.[I cant say I dont or didnt know] if I happen to hurt another player. Untill some REAL testing is done and the SAFETY standards and protective gear change, gets better.

You can have the ramp or auto and I will play but will also bring better protection.
Call it what ever you want. I call it smart with a sense of self preservation.

Just because it hasnt happened doesnt mean it cant, and the Fact that the chance is there no matter how big or small its still a chance that nobody seems to care about.

Peace Out

[Lohman446]

Well that sounds good for you. Now mention modes and guns that dont meet known safety standards and see what they say. You have a special fire arms policy or a rider on another policy? What about everybody else. I should put this in the whos liable thread. I think some home owners around here might be surprised to find out they arent covered or could be held responsible. Wanna gamble with the House?

I am not for a moment disagreeing wtih you that there is a serious potential danger to what we do - do you think that I went into my insurance company and brought this up just on a whim? I carry a very broad personal liability policy that most people do not, its not that expensive and gives me very good coverage for liability issues where other policy's (homeowners) might fall short. In the event someone was injured by my actions my house insurance and liability insurance would argue over who is to pay it (not really, as they are both through the same company). PSP rules only help me, in that I can point to there rules, there mode of fire rules and say I was following "accepted" practices for the game I play. Besides... the example we discussed that had gone to court in a policy like I carry - a kid who's parents carry the same policy had thrown a baseball bat at another kid on a bike, that bat had hit the spokes of the tire and lodged in there, flipping the bike and injuring the other kid. Because the bat thrower stated he had tried to throw the bat at the kid and not injure him (his intent was not to injure) they were actually covered :wow: - yeh its a surprise.

In agreement with you, I would recommend anyone who is not judgement proof who plays paintball to look into a good personal liability policy in case something does happen. The issues that Beemer and others bring up are issues - that will likely leave you in a bad situation should you ever have to defend yourself in civil court.

[REDRT]

When I was in the military there was a time that we were given Daisey red riders to attack a building armed with Crossman 760 pumpmasters. I this exercise we were wearing just the goggle over are eyes like if you were wood working. If your not familar with the Pumpmaster it fires a steal BB at 625fps. I think you guys are way over reacting! I'd rather take 20-30 paintballs to the head at once with our safety gear than just one of thoughs BB's to my face again! As they say in the Marine Corps,"what doesn't kill you can only make you stronger". Your best bet of dieing on the field is heat stroke or maybe a tank failure. Not a paintball.

[hitech]

I would love to get HiTech and Beemers opinion on there....where you guys at?

I don't get out much on weekends... ;)

I think Jim complaining about ramping boards is, well quite funny... :rofl:

Unless the ASTM standard changed, there is NO bps cap. There is a rule against ramping AND bouncing markers; One shot per pull and release of the trigger is the only "mode" allowed. He doesn't follow ASTM standards so I guess I shouldn't expect him to know them.

I think it is a matter of when not if someone will loose a lawsuit because a marker did not meet ASTM standards. And it may not even matter if meeting the standards would have prevented the injury. Unless the ASTM standards change (or have already changed) a big payout from a lawsuit is going to happen. I just can't tell you when.

Jim, complaining about adding shots... :rofl: I just can't get over that one....

[cledford]

Can someone actually explain the power of the ATSM? I understood it was an *ADVERSARY* board and that it’s *SUGGESTIONS* were just that – suggestions. Obviously the insurance industry might want an independent body to set standards to limit their liability – but since when does the ATSM carry the rule of law? If your particular insurance company isn’t demanding (contractually) that your field/tournament/scenario games meet the ATSM standards then what is the big deal? We give away a LOT of power by lacking the guts to set reasonable standards ourselves – by farming it out to someone else. What happens when the ATSM decides that 290fps ISN’T health and drops it to 200? Anyone heard of soft tissue damage and trauma? Anyone heard of breast cancer (shown to be in part linked to soft tissue damage in both women and men) We play a sport that to a certain extent is dangerous. It is time that people reacquainted themselves with that fact. I think most people did accept it for years – but somehow that got lost.

I think that things have gotten WAY out of hand with the rampant cheating provided for by electros – but I also think that all of this ATSM blathering is just turning to an outside body to do what no one has the guts or ability within paintball to do – shutdown the cheaters. Minimum trigger pull weights, limited amount of paint carried on the field), set ROFs (break the rules you’re gone FOREVER), and simple solutions for safety equipment (anyone ever consider a SECOND goggle strap – how hard would that be?) would largely stamp out all of this silliness.

Finally, all of this “someone got shot in the head point-blank as was knocked out” stuff is silly – once again, if you bunker someone and cannot keep from shooting them in the temple 6 times then you aren’t cut out to play paintball – your card should be pulled forever!

-Calvin

[PBX Ronin 23]

Or Jim Drew isn't looking hard for insurance - or isn't telling the complete and honest truth :wow: no way... Jim Drew be less than honest to promote his business... now way :wow: oh, wait, this is Jim Drew we are discussing... I pick option three :D

I keep on forgeting that Jim Drew has a certain reputation on AO.....my bad. :D

[Lohman446]

I keep on forgeting that Jim Drew has a certain reputation on AO.....my bad. :D


Not that he earned it or anything

[hitech]

Can someone actually explain the power of the ATSM? I understood it was an *ADVERSARY* board and that it’s *SUGGESTIONS* were just that – suggestions.

There are areas where ASTM standards are law. Mostly in construction. I'm no attorney, however, it appears to me that in the absence of other safety standards the courts look to ASTM. If you choose to not follow ASTM standards you had better have a good reason.

Considering the lack of any other formal safety standards in paintball I would expect the courts to consider ASTM standards the MINIMUM safety standard. There is plenty of precedent for this.

"You" are in court and they ask, "why didn’t you follow the ASTM standard?" What are "you" going to say?

[SlartyBartFast]

6.5.2 All paintball markers intended to be used with refillable
cylinders shall be able to withstand input pressure of three
thousand pounds per square inch 207 bar (3000 psi) without
catastrophic failure. Leaking in a manner which would not
cause injury to the operator shall not constitute failure.


Glad to see that part finally quoted.

Shows the general griping and holier-than-thou claims of AO members demeaning other markers for not being able to withstand 3000psi are wrong.

By the above, a burst disk installed anywhere between the tank and the marker (even it was a 100psi one) will make the marker ASTM compliant.

[Lohman446]

Glad to see that part finally quoted.

Shows the general griping and holier-than-thou claims of AO members demeaning other markers for not being able to withstand 3000psi are wrong.

By the above, a burst disk installed anywhere between the tank and the marker (even it was a 100psi one) will make the marker ASTM compliant.


The rule as I read it means without catastrophic failure - ie marker blowing apart. It does not say that the marker has to survive it and function afterwards

[PBX Ronin 23]

Well, from the looks of it, the PSP just plain buckled under. I still believe that we can still fight the tide of E-board cheaters by having (i) on the spot reflashing and (ii) a "certified" board that meets certain standards and criteria and only these boards should be allowed to compete at the highest level of tourney play (PSP, NPPL, NXL, etc.).

Life time bans for those players looking to circumvent the rules. Instant forfeiture for the rest of the team.

The ASTM must start looking into the certification of boards.

[hitech]

By the above, a burst disk installed anywhere between the tank and the marker (even it was a 100psi one) will make the marker ASTM compliant.

I would disagree. The bust disk would have to be installed in the marker for the marker to be ASTM compliant. Just as simply using a flatline (with built in overpressure relief) does not make a marker compliant. The MARKER must be able to handle 3000 psi.

[hitech]

I insisted on a clarification from my insurance company last year. ...As long as the act is not with the intent to harm someone, with the exception of they will cover me in a justified shooting (firearm), then I'm good. We specifically discussed paintball (no I did not bring up modes of fire)...

I wonder what they would say if you asked them if you would be covered if you were knowingly using equipment that did not conform to ASTM standards and said equipment was the cause of the injury? I would really like to know, if you are willing to ask.

:cheers:

[Lohman446]

I wonder what they would say if you asked them if you would be covered if you were knowingly using equipment that did not conform to ASTM standards and said equipment was the cause of the injury? I would really like to know, if you are willing to ask.

:cheers:


I would really not like to ask because right now I'm good :D . If I ask they may say no. But in answer to your question, I know it covers me should I fail to follow accepted industry standards in other things that I am expected to know the standards on and an injury results - so I think the answer would be yes, I'm covered. I am not following ATSM standards with ramping, I don't mean to argue that, but I think I could argue that I am following generally accepted industry practices - especially with the new PSP rules :D .

Basically, as long as my intent is not to injure then I am ok. A personal liability coverage policy like mine covers accidents, stupidity, and even neglect on my part, the only thing it will not cover is an intentional act that was intended to injure / get me sued.

[hitech]

I know it covers me should I fail to follow accepted industry standards in other things that I am expected to know the standards on and an injury results - so I think the answer would be yes, I'm covered....the only thing it will not cover is an intentional act that was intended to injure / get me sued.

But does it cover you if you KNOWINGLY fail to follow accepted industry safety standards? Could that be considered intent via willful disregard?

[Lohman446]

But does it cover you if you KNOWINGLY fail to follow accepted industry safety standards? Could that be considered intent via willful disregard?


As I have had it explained to me - as long as what I do is not with the intent to cause injury then I am covered. Remember my example of the kid throwing the baseball bat - that was obviously stupid and could have very easily caused injury - but because his intent was not to injure he was covered. Again why I recommend those who play, who are not judgement proof, look into a liability policy. I happen to have one for my job, but it covers here to.

Note: However, this is considering civil liability. What you bring up brings up interesting questions of the criminal courts view on this. It may very well fall under negligent homicide laws if someone was injured by a marker you where using that did not following ATSM guidelines. Though I would still lean to the argument, with the recent history and especially PSP rules that I am following accepted industry practices... but I would hate to have to make it.

Your ideas on this bring up an entire new line of thought. Up to this point the discussion has been "when someone gets sued". Assume someone, without a pre-existing condition, is seriously injured, or killed in paintball. What our the risks of players, promotors, manufacturers in criminal court? Interesting line of thought.

[hitech]

Unless things change it's only a matter of time until someone "gets in serious trouble". They very well may face civil and criminal penalties. Since most individuals don't have a clue what ASTM standards even are, they can at least avoid intent. However, everyone else is liable. I'm betting the smaller companies are planning on making money until a lawsuit. Then you declare bankruptcy and move on. The bigger companies just consider it a cost of doing business...

Only time will tell... tick tock tick tock...

:cheers:

[SlartyBartFast]

The MARKER must be able to handle 3000 psi.

But what defines the "marker"?

I do agree that all markers should have a "seal of approval" to show that they indeed pass the "Do not fail catastrophically" criteria is met.

Wouldn't be too difficult to test either. Blast containment box and a whip and ASA adapter that can deliver 3000psi. But how fast do you apply 3000psi? Gradual build up or instantaneous?

But, it would also mean that all manufacturers would have to supply their markers in a fashion that they are ready to use after screwing in a tank.

Then, who is laible for all the macro-fittings and lowend brass and steel fittings or fore-grips, ASA adapters, swivels, etc.?

[SlartyBartFast]

Only time will tell... tick tock tick tock...

Well, it took from the mid-80's till recently for someone to get killed by the inadequate safety design of CO2 tanks.

Seems the "industry" is hoping their "luck" holds the same on HPA, fittings, input pressures, flash fills (or even regular fills without blast containment), ramping/run-away markers, etc. :rolleyes:

[PBX Ronin 23]

There have been other deaths related directly to paintball. Be it a player on the field or a worker dealing with a booster pump, an industry that doesn't have standards and regulations that is complied to by the manufacturers is a catastrophe just waiting to happen.

We have been lucky so far. But just like a gambler in Vegas, do we as an industry know when to walk away ahead of the game? Or do we squander all that we have won.

[Lohman446]

We have been lucky so far. But just like a gambler in Vegas, do we as an industry know when to walk away ahead of the game? Or do we squander all that we have won.

We won't even consider rewriting the rules. If we are going to do these things... lets bring the ATSM standards up to date to them. Lets make a governing body.. lets do something. The warning signs are there - we have seen people killed and many of us beleive now that it is only a matter of time before this apathy towards the ATSM leads to a tragedy.. and in my mind criminally negligent charges being filed... Someone (more) is going to be killed over paintball - and I think it highly likely that at least one person, and likely several, are going to go to jail over it - and there is a thread on that discussion.

[SlartyBartFast]

I beleive the only way paintball will improve is through mandated training and certification at the local fields. And the only way that will happen is if the insurance companies take a closer look at the risk factors and daily operating procedures.

Perhaps a couple letters asking why SCUBA shop employees need certifications and training to fill HPA tanks but paintball fields let any untrained teenager do it?

Or to the occupational health and safety boards asking why SCBA tanks have to be filled in blast containment enclosures but paintball tanks are filled on the marker through unteathered hoses out in the open and while in the hands of the operator or, worse, the player.

But, be prepared for higher field fees as employees need to be trained and safety precautions have to increase.

[Lohman446]

Or to the occupational health and safety boards asking why SCBA tanks have to be filled in blast containment enclosures but paintball tanks are filled on the marker through unteathered hoses out in the open and while in the hands of the operator or, worse, the player..

I am fairly surprised OSHA has not already stepped in on this one, it seems to me they have the authority to do so.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Yeah but who wants to be the rat that points this out to them.....;)

[SlartyBartFast]

Umm, actually none of that is true.

Actually you contradict yourself.


There really is no federally mandated certification or filling containment procedures for either the 'filler' or the filling procedure.

All that applies is the title 49 hazmat training,which is only function specific as it applies only to a particular employee.A private individual can fill HP cylinders at the field or in his garage for that matter,all day long and not violate any written law.

Liability,now that is a completely diferent issue.

If there's hazmat legislation, there are employee and employer resposibilities. One of those is undobtable that only qualified employees perform the given procedure on the employer's premises.

So, individuals may be able to fil their own tanks on their own property or in public. But on private property as part of a business the procedure would be subjectto the hazmat rules.

[PBX Ronin 23]

And BTW, HECK NO, do you want .GOV to step in an enact federally mandated procedure or you'll most definately see the end of grass roots paintball (the vast majority of the sport) as we know it today.

A big ten four on that. This point is apparently what escapes a lot of people's minds.

I believe that there are some OSHA enacted regs and I'm not sure those are the ones you're reffering to in your previous post.

[Lohman446]

Exactly - I would like to keep the government out. However, if we do not self police ourselves, how long can we keep the government out?

[SlartyBartFast]

If they are an 'emplyee' doing the filling they are only required to have the hazmet cert. If a 'player' is filling from a supllied station then no. No real control over the set up or procedure.

A field owner has COMPLETE control over fill procedures and setup on their property.

If the field is supplying the fill station, it's without a doubt the fields responsibility.


Currently there are no mandated procedures or conatainments specified other than industry instituted guidlines (annual VIS for instance on a Scuba tank) outside of teh 'handling' of HP cylinders.

Go into a SCUBA store and ask to fill your own tank. :ninja:

If a business is in charge of hazardous materials or procedures you can bet your bottom dollar customers aren't allowed performing the procedures on the premises.

And it would NOT kill grass roots paintball. SCUBA certainly isn't dead and you can still buy your own compressors and fill your own tanks.

But I think the governemnt regulation already exists, we're just ignoring it and have stayed below the RADAR of the enforcement agencies because nobody has died from an exploding paintball tank. (Yet.)

http://www.ehow.com/how_403_refill-scuba-cylinder.html

[shartley]

First off, don't take this as some personal attack on you or something.No need to be getting all defensive. :)

Second...let's try and stay on focus. I specifically addressed the statements relating to 'Law' and 'Regulation'. I mentioned what that basically consisted of.

I also stated that an owners liability and responsibility was a completely different issue.

How a business owner runs his busineess and what he is forced to do by law and regulation are quite often 2 different things.

'Could" a scuba shop let you fill your own tank? Sure could. Would they? IDK, go ask . :D

'Could' a commercial Paintball field allow the players to fill thier own tanks? Certainly. Would they? Absolutely.

Liable and Legal are not neccessarily dependant on each other in this case.
I know this was not directed to me, but I have to ask…. Do you know a single field that invested in the filling equipment and then just lets the customers use it on their own? I sure don’t.

No offense is intended, but the “could” argument is pretty moot IMHO. A field “could” also give all their paint away free to players who pay a $10 field fee… would they? Absolutely not. And I believe the same is true for fill stations, both CO2 and HPA. There simply is just too much liability involved, and the chance someone might break the equipment.

[shartley]

Oh, I forgot to add….. Would I want the Government getting involved in grass roots paintball? I guess I am a minority… My answer is YES.

As for it “killing” grass roots paintball…. Bah. Any field that will not comply does not deserve to be open. And I could list quite a few fields that I would like to see get the axe (and probably WOULD). NONE of the things discussed in this thread should be a problem for any business that is above board, not fly by night, and is serious about the sport, the industry, and business in general.

I would rather have a smaller number of fields being run, but run correctly, than the garbage that quite a lot of us see being run around the country.

And that has been part of the problem with paintball over the years IMHO. It has been too easy to open shop, ignore rules and even laws, move from place to place, and all the other things we see happening.

So yes, regulate. And enforce your regulations. Cut the cancer out of the sport, and make it healthy… even if just a bit smaller to begin with (concerning fields).

[shartley]

Seriously?

Ever been to a big Tourny?

World Cup AT DISNEY by the way....player fill stations w/ FLASH FILLS only 20 available stations at a time.
No I have not….

But I thought we were talking about fields, not EVENTS that are set up and run by promoters. I thought we were talking about LOCAL paintball.

I admit, that EVENTS that run those types of things may happen. And obviously they do by your post. But in my opinion they are not the norm in the industry (as tournament play is not even the largest portion of players, yet it seems everyone wants to use THEM as a yardstick…. LOL too funny), and always looking to them is part of the problem with the industry and when folks talk about it (as I said in an earlier post). It is like comparing the general sales of firearms and the laws that govern it, to what happens at gun shows.

So I guess I will rephrase my question…. Do you know any LOCAL fields (not special events which may move from place to place) that allow the general public to simply use their filling stations? I don’t.

[REDRT]

As a field team we are allowed to fill are own tanks. We had a breifing on the procedure and I think the rule is no one under 16 or 18 (I forget) unless they're an employee. Big events are usually open for self fills.

[shartley]

As a field team we are allowed to fill are own tanks. We had a breifing on the procedure and I think the rule is no one under 16 or 18 (I forget) unless they're an employee. Big events are usually open for self fills.

Okay, so as a “field team” you were given a briefing (which would be like they give to their employees, and probably what they feel is all that is needed to fully train someone to use the equipment) and then let use the fill station(s). But you are not considered the general public are you? You are not simply a walkon player, but are part of “the family” there at the field, right?

Does your field (where you play) allow the general public use the fill stations? Or do they have one of their staff operate the equipment when a customer needs a fill?

And when you say big events, do you mean at THAT field? Or just "at big events"? I have been to "big games" that have not allowed the general public to fill for themselves.

I am just trying to understand your situation and that of the field you play at.

It may very well be that there ARE a lot of fields which allow the general public to use their fill stations. I have not come across them though. And I am glad.

[Cyberious]

Oh, I forgot to add….. Would I want the Government getting involved in grass roots paintball? I guess I am a minority… My answer is YES.

As for it “killing” grass roots paintball…. Bah. Any field that will not comply does not deserve to be open. And I could list quite a few fields that I would like to see get the axe (and probably WOULD). NONE of the things discussed in this thread should be a problem for any business that is above board, not fly by night, and is serious about the sport, the industry, and business in general.

I would rather have a smaller number of fields being run, but run correctly, than the garbage that quite a lot of us see being run around the country.

And that has been part of the problem with paintball over the years IMHO. It has been too easy to open shop, ignore rules and even laws, move from place to place, and all the other things we see happening.

So yes, regulate. And enforce your regulations. Cut the cancer out of the sport, and make it healthy… even if just a bit smaller to begin with (concerning fields).

Not cutting out a single word of the post I'm quoting. Let me say this in response: AMEN Brother Shartley speak the good word! I too would like to see it regulated to make it safer and better. Too many fields just allow anything to happen. If it requires me to spend more to play, so be it. As far as the ball cap I'd love to see it at 13 no other provisions...1 pull, 1 shot, NO Ramping, NO Turbo, NO nonsense. It would put skill back into the game. In many cases technology has been an equalizer between marginal players and good ones. I have 6 markers that will shoot above the 15 bps cap, would I have them flashed to only fire up to 13 bps? Sure. Why not.
I played with one of my Mech Mags a few weekends ago and can honestly say that I haven't had that much fun in this sport in a long time. There were 3 other people on the field with Mech Markers and it was fun to take on the paint slingers (especially since I am usually one of them). I felt as confident walking on to the field with a mech marker as I do with my X-Mag. Why? Because I've been playing this sport for 19 years and know there is more to it than hosing paint. Those of you that think you are great players I challenge you to walk out onto the field with a mech or better yet with a pump. If you do great,THAT shows you how good you are. I've seen very well known tourney players (atleast at the time) including a professional tourney team go down to a team of pump players.

[REDRT]

Okay, so as a “field team” you were given a briefing (which would be like they give to their employees, and probably what they feel is all that is needed to fully train someone to use the equipment) and then let use the fill station(s). But you are not considered the general public are you? You are not simply a walkon player, but are part of “the family” there at the field, right?

Does your field (where you play) allow the general public use the fill stations? Or do they have one of their staff operate the equipment when a customer needs a fill?

And when you say big events, do you mean at THAT field? Or just "at big events"? I have been to "big games" that have not allowed the general public to fill for themselves.

I am just trying to understand your situation and that of the field you play at.

It may very well be that there ARE a lot of fields which allow the general public to use their fill stations. I have not come across them though. And I am glad.

Maybe not general public, but still not an employee. I doubt I'm covered if something was to happen. Frankly it really doesn't matter to me. Because I would be died if I screwed up! It is the ones left behind that it matters most to. It sure is nice too skip the long line to get air. And thats what really counts. Future plans are to some sort of self fills HPA.

[FSU_Paintball]

I'd just like to say that if anyone thinks JD is "taking a stand" "doing the right thing" or "standing up for the players" you're sadly mistaken.

Ramping means decreased demand for WAS boards. JD has always made cheater boards; for him to stand up and say that adding shots is wrong is hypocritical and ridiculous of him.

He's not trying to do the right thing, he's still being the same guy he always was - the one who is extremely concerned with lining his pockets, even if he has to say anything to do it.

Ramping is much safer than bouncing, and it puts everyone on a level playing field. I'm not sure if I like the idea of it being legal, but I'm not blind to the advantages of it, nor am I blind to JD's motivation for his statements.

[shartley]

Not cutting out a single word of the post I'm quoting. Let me say this in response: AMEN Brother Shartley speak the good word! I too would like to see it regulated to make it safer and better. Too many fields just allow anything to happen. If it requires me to spend more to play, so be it. As far as the ball cap I'd love to see it at 13 no other provisions...1 pull, 1 shot, NO Ramping, NO Turbo, NO nonsense. It would put skill back into the game. In many cases technology has been an equalizer between marginal players and good ones. I have 6 markers that will shoot above the 15 bps cap, would I have them flashed to only fire up to 13 bps? Sure. Why not.

I played with one of my Mech Mags a few weekends ago and can honestly say that I haven't had that much fun in this sport in a long time. There were 3 other people on the field with Mech Markers and it was fun to take on the paint slingers (especially since I am usually one of them). I felt as confident walking on to the field with a mech marker as I do with my X-Mag. Why? Because I've been playing this sport for 19 years and know there is more to it than hosing paint. Those of you that think you are great players I challenge you to walk out onto the field with a mech or better yet with a pump. If you do great,THAT shows you how good you are. I've seen very well known tourney players (atleast at the time) including a professional tourney team go down to a team of pump players.
Thank you, and I agree.

I too do not feel outgunned or at a disadvantage depending on the marker I am shooting. Heck, I normally play with my PPS Stroker in pistol mode now, and to say that is a good bit slower than the e-machines out there is not stating something unreasonable. And I don’t even consider myself the best player on the field. LOL

Yes, the regular local field I play at allows the 'regulars' to fill thier own HPA. Although I'm not sure why you see a difference between me walking up to a fill station at an Event or me walking up to a fill station at another commercial facility but in any case, there you go. :)

As for RedRT's case as I stated ealier, if your not an employee,your not required to have any cerification. A 'briefing' means nothing regardless.
I see. Well, we have a “field team” and “regulars” using the fill stations. I will still maintain that that is far different than letting every player simply use the equipment, and that is what I was saying. But I will not beat a dead horse.

And as for the distinction between an event that is basically a traveling road show and a local field…… I consider them similar to a Gun Show and your local Gun Shop. But that is just my opinion.

As for fields letting anyone but employees filling customer tanks….this in my opinion is simply WRONG. And I pray that nothing happens, but if it DOES that charges of criminal negligence are filed and someone goes to jail. And I would wager that no matter how you slice it, it would be found that since the field owned the equipment, they are still liable for anything that happens when it is being used, whether by an employee or not. And I will also state that I feel that any BUSINESS should be held to higher standards than someone in their own back yard.

This latest round of discussions just makes me shake my head even more. I knew the industry was messed up from the ground up and from the top down but this is ridiculous. It also makes me think even more that the government needs to step in.

But thank you all for your replies and civility. :cheers:

[PBX Ronin 23]

Preventing any direct governmental intervention can be accomplished if we were self-policing. Anything short of that and we're only waiting for the inevitable hammer to come down.

[Lohman446]

Those of you that think you are great players I challenge you to walk out onto the field with a mech or better yet with a pump. If you do great,THAT shows you how good you are. I've seen very well known tourney players (atleast at the time) including a professional tourney team go down to a team of pump players.

I do that from time to time - I still have no skill :D Sorry.. didn't mean to sidetrack the conversation, some humor is needed from time to time

[Lurker27]

I abhor the idea that ramping puts everyone on an equal playing field.

Walking is a skill.

Why not give everyone rocket roller skates that are capped at a given speed?

You're penalizing those that can legitimately outshoot the cap.

[SlartyBartFast]

You're penalizing those that can legitimately outshoot the cap.

Which is how many players exactly? :p