View Full Version : "You can run the xvalve on Co2"
maglover728
02-13-2005, 07:31 AM
I just found this post on warpig.com. Is this guy somin something or...
"If you try this, do it in a vertical ASA adaptor. You can run the xvalve on Co2, but it's not gonna like it when you start shooting fast. But you can try it it's won't kill your xvalve. Make sure to lube it up well before you do this.
If I was doing something as nutty as this, I'd get a 45 degree ASA tilted towards teh trigger."
I am not an expert, but are you not susposed to use co2 in an RT because it won't keep up in rapid fire or for other reasons? :confused:
okiTony
02-13-2005, 07:56 AM
I wouldn't put CO2 in to any Mag. It didn't like it in my classic, I always had problems, even with the 6 stage expansion chamber. I even tried using a remote. I will NEVER or even think of putting it into my RT with the XValve. :nono: That would be crazy.
maglover728
02-13-2005, 08:14 AM
That is what I am thinking but there is a guy on that forum saying, "go for it, just us an expansion chamber and all will be fine." Before I inform him that he is out of his mind :tard: , I just wanted to be sure. Thanks for the back up here.
Anyone else care to comment?
Rooster
02-13-2005, 09:36 AM
It has nothing to do with the expanion of the gas. A little shoot down will be the least of your problems. The tolerances are tighter in the RT valves and CO2 is a dirty gas that will plug it up.
Mike Smith
02-13-2005, 10:42 AM
Re: the classic Mag.
I shot my level 7 with a vertical CO2 bottle for 10 years. With the on-off valve {it had a big hole from the tank}, I experienced minimal shoot-down over the years, and even froze the bottom 1/4 of my 12OZ tank on a 45 degree day at PB Sams and still was able to shoot the Mag {Yea... velocity was down to about 200 FPS, but it did shoot...}
That said... now that I have HPA, I'll never go back to CO2 on my Mag.
I'll still use 12 gram CO2 on my modified Phantom.
Dayspring
02-13-2005, 11:29 AM
It'll shoot fine for about 3 shots. Then it will get liquid into the valve and piss CO2 out of every orifice.
The RT recharges SO quickly that the CO2 does not have time to make the phase change from liquid to gas.
The guy you're talking to is an idiot.
female palmer to an expansion chamber to the valve. To say that any gun wont work on CO2, I think, is a bit dishonest. There are very few guns that can handle a blast of liquid co2, however, they can handle the icy cold nature of co2 just fine.
I am suprised we have not seen anyone on AO really give the co2 on an xvalve a try considering we would get more shots out of co2. good scernario gas....
P8ntBallBoom
02-13-2005, 12:20 PM
Speaking of guns that can handle liquid CO2 without dying, anyone know which ones can? My old sherdian nemesis could, don't ask me why but it just did.
Speaking of guns that can handle liquid CO2 without dying, anyone know which ones can? My old sherdian nemesis could, don't ask me why but it just did.
my eclipse shocker was not only one of the most consistant guns i ever owned, but it ate CO2 and loved it! I't wouldnt be un common to get triples or quds over the chrono, rock solid +/-0. If any liquid ever got into the dual selenoids they were toast, but that never happened with the max flow.. Angels are great to as long as the are regged correctly, spyders, tippys, bko's b2lks, o'wait you can probally list ever single gun ever made into the co2 cotagory as long as its done correctly.
I am suprised we have not seen anyone on AO really give the co2 on an xvalve a try considering we would get more shots out of co2. good scernario gas....
Well, I suppose I could simply quote Tom from 1996, when he stated with authority that the new RT valve cannot be used with Co2, due to the too fast recharge rate not allowing liquid Co2 time to phase to gas.
Or, you could do an easy search for my impromptu test on my MiniMag, when I swapped the Classic valve for an Emag valve...and just for excitement and "what if"...I hooked up a 20oz tank to it, and promptly froze it shut in less than 6 shots.
Or, you could take Daysprings word for it. :rofl:
WARPED1
02-13-2005, 01:48 PM
I wouldn't put CO2 in to any Mag. It didn't like it in my classic, I always had problems, even with the 6 stage expansion chamber. I even tried using a remote. I will NEVER or even think of putting it into my RT with the XValve. :nono: That would be crazy.
CO2 in a Classic mag is 100% fine, CO2 itself just sucks. The first mag was released and used by tons of people before N2 was used, enen before it was released at all, cockers too. I do believe TK had most to do with the first paintball N2 bottle.
TheDuelist
02-13-2005, 02:14 PM
I ran my first classic hooked up to 2 20oz tanks and a remote line for years before going to HPA. I never had a problem a single problem with it. Good maintenance and a litle TLC goes a long way.
NoForts4Me
02-13-2005, 03:19 PM
Speaking of guns that can handle liquid CO2 without dying, anyone know which ones can? My old sherdian nemesis could, don't ask me why but it just did.
I used a Tippmann 68 Special on Liquid CO2 many years ago. It was a very consistent and accurate marker. I believe some Sterling pumps work well on liquid CO2 as well.
I've been using CO2 (non-liquid :)) on a Classic for 1 1/2 years, and have not had to replace the o-rings yet. I just use an anti-siphon tank and expansion chamber.
Target Practice
02-13-2005, 03:50 PM
I wouldn't put CO2 in to any Mag. It didn't like it in my classic, I always had problems, even with the 6 stage expansion chamber. I even tried using a remote. I will NEVER or even think of putting it into my RT with the XValve. :nono: That would be crazy.
Uh...the Classic valves were designed before HPA was even in wide use, IIRC. You were probably OVERexpanding your CO2. That was your fault, not the CO2.
e: f,b
Conversekidz
02-13-2005, 04:38 PM
My 68 carbine loves to drink Co2, its great, start shooting the gun, tip it downwards to suck in the liquid and then level again to shoot. It would start spitting out ice and keep on going like nothing happened.
Scott Hudnall
02-13-2005, 04:49 PM
I used CO2 without problems at all on my first mag....used a benchmark exp chamber and bottom line set up....not remote.
BUT.....I do vividly recall the first tournament I played in AFTER switching to N2 on that same 'mag.....wow, the difference was amazing.
SpecialBlend2786
02-13-2005, 05:03 PM
check it. an Odyssey o2 frozen solid and still going...
VIDEO : http://odyssey.tv/products/markers/o2/hardcore02.avi
http://odyssey.tv/products/markers/o2/liquid.jpg
CoolHand
02-13-2005, 05:59 PM
You can use CO2 on an Xvalve, but it doesn't work very well.
I shot my EMag on CO2 for a while, with two regs, antisyphon, etc. and it never froze up, you just couldn't wail on it either ('cause it would shoot down).
Is it a good idea? Not really. Will it cycle the marker? Yes. Will it cause it to explode/not work ever again/melt/plug up? No. Will it freeze if you let the liquid get in? Yes. Is CO2 corrosive? No. Is CO2 a horribly dirty gas? No more than any other bulk industrial gas.
Pressure is pressure is pressure is pressure. As long as you can reliably provide ~600 psi to the valve, it will cycle. Be it CO2, N2, HPA, He2, H2, O2, Ar, etc, etc, etc (though some of those would be poor choices for various reason, being explosive and whatnot :rofl: ).
The big problem with CO2 is that it really wants to be a liquid at 600 psi (at all but pretty warm ambient tempuratures). So, by the time that its got enough umph built up to cycle the valve, it is all but ready to change phases. When it starts to flow, the pressure drops and you get shootdown, and freezing, both of which are undesirable (not damaging, but not useful either).
I just get tired of hearing from the chicken littles who preach doom and gloom when CO2 is mentioned. It won't kill anything, but it likely won't work very well either (if you just screw it into the ASA).
That is all.
WARPED1
02-13-2005, 06:07 PM
I used a Tippmann 68 Special on Liquid CO2 many years ago. It was a very consistent and accurate marker. I believe some Sterling pumps work well on liquid CO2 as well.
I've been using CO2 (non-liquid :)) on a Classic for 1 1/2 years, and have not had to replace the o-rings yet. I just use an anti-siphon tank and expansion chamber.
The 68 Special was designed to run on liquid CO2. You were supposed to use a Siphon tank. Like the Montneel Z1.
Pressure is pressure is pressure is pressure. As long as you can reliably provide ~600 psi to the valve, it will cycle. Be it CO2, N2, HPA, He2, H2, O2, Ar, etc, etc, etc (though some of those would be poor choices for various reason, being explosive and whatnot :rofl: ).
Oh, man. Hydrogen powered marker...
"Go out with a bang." :rofl:
CoolHand
02-13-2005, 07:14 PM
Oh, man. Hydrogen powered marker...
"Go out with a bang." :rofl:
Indeed. You get the idea though. :ninja:
NoForts4Me
02-13-2005, 08:14 PM
The 68 Special was designed to run on liquid CO2. You were supposed to use a Siphon tank. Like the Montneel Z1.
Yeah, I was digging in my storage shed a few months ago and found the old 20oz Siphon tank I used on that gun. Went out of hydro in 1996, I believe. It clinks like a bell when you shake it. The gun didn't shoot very well without it. It was not uncommon for the gun to shoot snow, but it never missed a beat, and didn't care what the temperature was. I think it needed the liquid because it had to cycle so much mass. The hammer on that gun was heavy.
trains are bad
02-13-2005, 08:43 PM
Coolhand, thank you for injecting a breath of sense into this thread.
The main reason CO2 doesn't work well on mags is that they are high pressure markers. Simple as that. You will never get a valve that works best at 800+ psi input to run well on CO2.
I ran a retrovalve on anti-siphoned CO2, with an expansion chanber. It worked, in a way. Shot several tanks through it before I could switch back to HPA.
WARPED1
02-14-2005, 12:23 AM
Use argon!
Well, I suppose I could simply quote Tom from 1996, when he stated with authority that the new RT valve cannot be used with Co2, due to the too fast recharge rate not allowing liquid Co2 time to phase to gas.
Or, you could do an easy search for my impromptu test on my MiniMag, when I swapped the Classic valve for an Emag valve...and just for excitement and "what if"...I hooked up a 20oz tank to it, and promptly froze it shut in less than 6 shots.
Or, you could take Daysprings word for it. :rofl:
or we could post the truth
You can use CO2 on an Xvalve, but it doesn't work very well.
I shot my EMag on CO2 for a while, with two regs, antisyphon, etc. and it never froze up, you just couldn't wail on it either ('cause it would shoot down).
Is it a good idea? Not really. Will it cycle the marker? Yes. Will it cause it to explode/not work ever again/melt/plug up? No. Will it freeze if you let the liquid get in? Yes. Is CO2 corrosive? No. Is CO2 a horribly dirty gas? No more than any other bulk industrial gas.
Pressure is pressure is pressure is pressure. As long as you can reliably provide ~600 psi to the valve, it will cycle. Be it CO2, N2, HPA, He2, H2, O2, Ar, etc, etc, etc (though some of those would be poor choices for various reason, being explosive and whatnot :rofl: ).
The big problem with CO2 is that it really wants to be a liquid at 600 psi (at all but pretty warm ambient tempuratures). So, by the time that its got enough umph built up to cycle the valve, it is all but ready to change phases. When it starts to flow, the pressure drops and you get shootdown, and freezing, both of which are undesirable (not damaging, but not useful either).
I just get tired of hearing from the chicken littles who preach doom and gloom when CO2 is mentioned. It won't kill anything, but it likely won't work very well either (if you just screw it into the ASA).
That is all.
we'rd
SlartyBartFast
02-14-2005, 04:49 PM
The big problem with CO2 is that it really wants to be a liquid at 600 psi (at all but pretty warm ambient tempuratures).
And someone else can try and find the exact quote from Tom Kaye, but THAT'S why you shouldn't run CO2 in an Xvalve.
The rapid charging of the dump chamber can easily cause a phase change of the CO2 from gas to liquid regardless of how well the CO2 is regulated.
The liquid in the dump chamber will cause higher pressures than the regulator setting and cause dangerous velocity spikes. It may be a very good thing that the valve starves or freezes up easily with CO2.
The rumour I heard was the old "Magic Box" was designed exactly for this purpose. Get some liquid in the dump chamber to produce how shots after chrono'ing at a legal velocity.
SlartyBartFast
02-14-2005, 04:51 PM
My 68 carbine loves to drink Co2, its great, start shooting the gun, tip it downwards to suck in the liquid and then level again to shoot. It would start spitting out ice and keep on going like nothing happened.
Yes, and doing so SHOULD get you expulsed from the field unless you chrono'ed using that firing "technique".
Those shots would undoubtably be VERY hot.
okiTony
02-17-2005, 08:19 AM
Uh...the Classic valves were designed before HPA was even in wide use, IIRC. You were probably OVERexpanding your CO2. That was your fault, not the CO2.
e: f,b
Yes, I know that Mags run on CO2, I was running CO2 for a long time. I am just saying that I was having problems until I changed to Air. Tried many ways, it didn't work for me. I never said that CO2 does not work, I just think it sucks. I would never use it again.
WARPED1- yea... I wouldn't put CO2 in a cocker either. A friend of mine had to buy a new reg for his. It was a pain to get it timed right also.
All in all, CO2 will work in practically any gun, but I wouldn't use it on mine.
Jerhew
02-17-2005, 05:58 PM
Uh...the Classic valves were designed before HPA was even in wide use, IIRC. You were probably OVERexpanding your CO2. That was your fault, not the CO2.
e: f,b
doubtful.
lets keep one more thing in mind that was briefly mentioned earlier...
co2 works better in warmer climates...
which is why Glenn Palmer absolutely SWEARS by co2...he's from Cali!
Come to Buffalo with a mag and any co2 setup you can dream up and play on a cold spring morning...you'll see why some of us cringe at the idea of using co2 with a mag(co2 in anything...other than sodapop :) )
we dealt with it(because we had to) but once the first guy on our team got a hpa tank...and the rest of us got to try it, that was it. we all went hpa and no one ever looked back.
Hotshot33610
03-23-2005, 04:32 PM
Sorry to bring this back up, but I just got an Automag RT Pro, and I want to use CO2 through it. If i used an antisiphon tank, would it work? I know it wont work that great, but will I be able to play with it?
Dayspring
03-23-2005, 04:49 PM
NO NO NO NO NO!
The valve is HPA ONLY! :rolleyes: :mad:
Hotshot33610
03-23-2005, 05:10 PM
Even with antisiphon tanks? It wont even fire? I know it wont work well, but will it work at all?
ANother Question, what would happen If I did try to use CO2?
SSMercury
03-23-2005, 05:58 PM
I don't see why you couldn't at least go ahead and try it. What's the worst that can happen? Freeze? Let it thaw. Eats your o-rings/seals? Replace them, not too expensive.
Consider it a grand experiment. ;)
Duzzy
03-23-2005, 06:13 PM
In theory you can do whatever you want.
In reality, it might be best to listen to the manufacturer, people who have used them before, and experts when it comes to the product in question.
Everyone stated why it will/won't work and how well it would work, look back through the posts.
Get a cheap 48/3000, you will probably have to air up after every game or so, but they are around $80, they work, if you take care of it and it passes every hyro then it can last for 15 years. All for $80 plus re-hydro fees.
ColdFuzion
03-23-2005, 06:15 PM
Even with antisiphon tanks? It wont even fire? I know it wont work well, but will it work at all?
ANother Question, what would happen If I did try to use CO2?
Danger Will Robinson, danger! Don't do it unless you feel like cleaning a valve and replacing all seals. There's a mag with xvalve that my field uses as a loner, and after a day of CO2, there was a gum-like residue. CO2 will freeze and pop every oring in the gun, not to mention freeze yer hand! :eek:
CoolHand
03-23-2005, 06:27 PM
Danger Will Robinson, danger! Don't do it unless you feel like cleaning a valve and replacing all seals. There's a mag with xvalve that my field uses as a loner, and after a day of CO2, there was a gum-like residue. CO2 will freeze and pop every oring in the gun, not to mention freeze yer hand! :eek:
Seriously dude, you need to go take a look at at the periodic table. CO2 is inert, and it won't 'react' and leave a residue behind. If the marker stopped working all together, I would be quicker to attribute its death to the residue, rather than the CO2.
I wish people would realize that CO2 is no more "dirty" than HPA is (especially if the shop doesn't clean the filter on their compressor, and certainly if they use bulk tank N2). It doesn't corrode things ('cause its inert), and it doesn't just randomly destroy orings. The orings die when they freeze to the housing, which doesn't happen if you lube them like you should.
The point here is that CO2 is not evil, and is not entirely obsolete.
Now, can you run an XValve on CO2? Certainly. . . . . . . four or five shots, if you don't try to shoot them too fast. The problem comes not from the gas itself, but rather the fact that the gas can't exhert more than about 500-600 psi reliably, and a mag really needs more than that. When you shoot very fast at all, the CO2 chills, turns into a liquid, and the pressure drops significantly. So, it will shoot for a few shots, then chuff and get bolt stick. Then while you are unsticking the bolt, the pressure goes back up, and its good for a few more shots.
That's the kind of service you are going to get from an XValved mag on CO2. Nothing bad is going to happen to you, and the valve will live through it just fine (provided you lube it well before hand), but its not going to work well enough to use in a game.
This is why AGD says HPA only. Not because anything bad happens, but because they just don't want to have to deal with the problems when every person who trys it gets shootdown and boltstick.
BobDoleIsMyHero
03-23-2005, 06:32 PM
Classic valves can run on co2. The problem is that liquid causes the gun to shoot hot and can freeze the lvl7 powertube o-ring (causing a leak). If you have a good expansion/remote setup you should be fine with the classic valve. Tom is a smart guy, he wouldn't have wasted all sorts of time and energy making hpa work for paintball if there wasn't a problem with liquid co2 and automags. He said in the video that comes with mags, "you must find a way to keep liquid(co2) out of the system at all costs." :nono:
As for the X valve i would listen to AGD on that one too.
SlartyBartFast
03-24-2005, 08:26 AM
Classic valves can run on co2. The problem is that liquid causes the gun to shoot hot and can freeze the lvl7 powertube o-ring (causing a leak).
And the design of the XValve increases the chances of liquid getting into the dump chamber exponentially.
Also, the rapid charging and flow may cause the CO2 to phase change. Also resulting in dangerous hot shots.
MarkM
03-24-2005, 09:45 AM
I used a Tippmann 68 Special on Liquid CO2 many years ago. It was a very consistent and accurate marker. I believe some Sterling pumps work well on liquid CO2 as well.
I've been using CO2 (non-liquid :)) on a Classic for 1 1/2 years, and have not had to replace the o-rings yet. I just use an anti-siphon tank and expansion chamber.
All Sterlings were meant to be run on liquid C02 with syphon tubes, for this very reason way too many were pulled hot at the pump division of Skyball a few years ago.
I ran a Classic valved mag on C02 for several years with no ill effects, I did have a 3.5oz bottle as an expansion chamber though and an anti-syphon valve on the 20oz bottle...O rings were not an issue but I made a point of changing them reasonably regularly.
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