Relevancy of the NPPL and PSP in Rules/Standards Making

[PBX Ronin 23]

What use is it for one or the other to come up with standards for the industry to follow when both of them can't even share their findings and create a common standard for the sport.

My personal take on the newly promulgated PSP rules is that they buckled under the pressure of the influx of cheater boards coming into the sport. Rather than fixing the problem, they decided to make it dissappear and sweep the sports largest source of potential liability under the rug.

I think that the NPPL is doing a better job at this but what it is that they do is still woefully inadequate.

They have all the necessary data from the ASTM and other safety related sources to stand on. Why don't they just find the courage to make a stand on the issue. If they both intend to be 'the' trail blazer for the sport in particular and the industry in general, you'd think that either one would have grown some balls by now.

[hitech]

Becauase they can't figure out how to keep cheats out of electronic markers ans still make money?

They don't even adequately enforce their own rules... They will never tackle any complex problems.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Their rules are relevant simply because they are the big leagues. If you want to play big-time competitive paintball, you have to play there. So you have to learn to play by their rules (at least approximately) as you work your way up.

As long as the leagues are owned wholly or in part by the manufacturers, they will never deal with the issue of controlling the e-markers. The industry influence means they will continue to use them, and will not set standards for boards and programs because of sales-competition and fears of industrial espionage.

I'm thinking recently that the closest model for paintball is auto-racing. It is another expensive, technology-heavy sport, with strong sponsor-involvement/affiliation. Auto-racing has several major "leagues", with vastly different rules, but they all co-exist, and have their own fan bases. Some circuits have a good handle on the technology-control issue, and at least one doesn't. Sportswriters have complained for years that it's races are almost a foregone conclusion before they even start.

NASCAR is the best example that we might hope paintball would follow, IMO. The major manufacturers sponsor/supply cars. But they have to follow strict guidelines set by the organization, with the result that all the cars are effectively identical. The manufacturers feel that the sponsorship is worthwhile, ands that it boosts sales. The buying public doeesn't seem to mind that Monte Carlo they buy on Monday shares no parts with the "Monte Carlo" that won on Sunday.

At your local racetrack, you might see real NASCAR-type cars, but even in the lower-class races where the cars are still actually derived from "stock" cars there are technological limits to keep the races fairly even. And they otherwise follow the same race-rules as the big leagues.

[shartley]

I don’t think they are relevant at all. As posted, the two leagues can’t even agree on a set standard.

And I will toss in another monkey wrench….. Guess what world? MOST paintball players will not play in upper level tournament play. MOST paintball players could care less about the tournament rules or restrictions placed on tournament players. The same way most people who drive cars could care less about what rules NASCAR has for its drivers, and the auto industry as a whole does not look to racing promoters and organizers to determine what is best for ALL cars.

I know that is hard for some to swallow, but it is the truth.

While the majority of the press and “exposure” happens at the tournament level, the most players do “something other than”. And that includes wannabe tournament players who idolize the upper level tournament players and think if they form a team and play on a speedball field wearing the same gear and shooting the same markers that THEY are somehow something other than a recreational player.

The average player you meet on the street does not play in tournaments. And the average driver on the street does not race on a track.

I think THE INDUSTRY should start making some rules for THE INDUSTRY and stop looking to those who organize the largest tournament series to make rules for them to follow. The PLAYERS should follow tournament rules, and the INDUSTRY should make rules for itself that will be good for ALL players, tournament, recreational, scenario, etc.

For me, until people stop looking to the tournament leagues to somehow regulate the INDUSTRY, nothing will really get solved.

So although I agree with what Jeffy posted to some degree, I disagree as to how it affects paintball, now. Players would NOT be happy or satisfied that the marker they buy on Monday is NOT the same marker that they saw at a tournament. But I would be all for “special” markers for tournament play, and another for the general public. I just don’t think paintball as a whole, or players in general, are ready for that….. yet.

And if folks are really wanting to talk about safety issues…. at least tournament players KNOW what they are getting into. They often times TRAIN for events as well as situations they may find themselves in (as well as some scenario teams), but the REC player is using the SAME equipment. But often times they are oblivious of what can really happen. I can not tell you the amount of dangerous situations I have seen on a Rec field because of an overzealous person or someone who just does not care about anything more than shooting up people…. Let alone players who don’t quite realize how rough the game “can” get, and brought little Johnny or their pal from work who has never played before, for a nice day of paintball. Oh my.

So the next time folks think about what needs to be done in the Industry, try looking at more than one segment of the game…. Let alone the smallest segment of it.

[PBX Ronin 23]

You've made some good points Sam. But there are things that I don't agree with 100%

True, the great majority of players don't care what rules are set on the highest competitive level. But the policies adopted in those leagues will filter down the market. Case in point, how long will it be untill "PSP Legal" markers with full auto capabilities at 15bps make it into little Johnny's hands while playing paintball in the backyard without adult supervision.

We may have gotten away with a major catastrophe in the past when high-end guns had full auto capabilities.....but why tempt fate?

[Lohman446]

You've made some good points Sam. But there are things that I don't agree with 100%

True, the great majority of players don't care what rules are set on the highest competitive level. But the policies adopted in those leagues will filter down the market. Case in point, how long will it be untill "PSP Legal" markers with full auto capabilities at 15bps make it into little Johnny's hands while playing paintball in the backyard without adult supervision.

We may have gotten away with a major catastrophe in the past when high-end guns had full auto capabilities.....but why tempt fate?


But I would argue that it was SP and the public release of the Nerve board that pushed the PSP to break down and allow it. Unless SP and the PSP had already decided the rule would change - and that may very well be true, I suggest it as a real possibility. You did not have the change in rules until you had markers that were produced from the factory that had everything that rule required, and those markers have been out for some time. What about all the low end markers with semi / burst / auto settings. These have ignored the tournament rules (sure they put a lockout on them, but thats a selling point) because they don't generally push towards the tournament crowd.

The manufacturers, at least the major ones - could sit down and agree on things, and force a change. Will you still have rogue smaller companies and chip producers, sure you will. But if you had the maufacturers not involved in pushing the rules for the public teams (see how I gave them some leeway on sponsored teams, because thats another issue entirely) then the rule makers could enforce them better. You have an aftermarket chip in your marker that makes it non-complaint would be easier to enforce then the current situation - or the situation recently, where many of the markers from the factory were non compliant, or easily made that way, or worse yet made that way only with hidden settings.

The manufacturers could sit down, agree on semi non flashable boards only... and then there would be something enforceable at the tournament level.

[shartley]

You've made some good points Sam. But there are things that I don't agree with 100%

True, the great majority of players don't care what rules are set on the highest competitive level. But the policies adopted in those leagues will filter down the market. Case in point, how long will it be untill "PSP Legal" markers with full auto capabilities at 15bps make it into little Johnny's hands while playing paintball in the backyard without adult supervision.

We may have gotten away with a major catastrophe in the past when high-end guns had full auto capabilities.....but why tempt fate?
Oh I understand. And I don’t expect everyone to agree with me 100%. If it makes people think, I am happy.

I don’t really agree with the PSP Legal stuff filtering down to the rec field though. History in paintball has shown that it does not work that way. The “good” things filter down as promotional value for the markers, not the “bad” (as in restrictive) things filtering down in the form of control. Heck, we tended to see even WORSE things on the Rec field. LOL

But I agree, something should be done. We just seem to look at it from a bit different angles. And that is a GOOD thing. More voices need to be heard, and voices from different aspects of the game. And these voices need to be heard by those who can DO something about it.

I wonder if there could be a symposium organized that would be a giant round table discussion comprised of Industry leaders, players from each type of game, insurance folks, etc. It would not solve all the problems, but it would be a step in the right direction and begin the dialog that needs to take place for change to happen. I know the larger manufacturers have done similar things, but I don’t think it involved the full range of people affected by any decisions made.

[Toxic Dave]

The PSP in my mind made the rule because it is pyhsically impossible to stop the technology from being used, do you think for one second modes of fire can't and haven't been undetectable for the past 3 months if people wanted them to be. There is a company that makes this stuff available to any idiot on the street. You can make all the eternal ban rules you want for a series, but you aren't going to catch people, if they don't want to get caught. And no Smoke and Mirrors "robot" is gonna catch them either. I know for a fact people are getting away with the same stuff in the NPPL as the PSP.

Mel;

You want a standard board to be used by all players in a league, made by the same company? Who's paying for the boards/ chips? People complain about spending 20 bucks on an ID, much less 50-150 dollars for a new electronics set up. Then the lines for factory techs to install these boards (plus the cost of techs having to spend 3 days doing it before each event) I tell ya what, the only winner is the board maker on your plan.

The rule is stupid, but it's a lesser of 2 evils, it puts a cap on rof and some controls on the ramp/ bounce, whatever. At least it's a level playing field for teams and the there isn't going to be the uncontrolled insanity that there was in years past.

Are these guns that essentially shooting 3 shot burst anymore unsafe than the out of the box Spyder Imagine that I have that does the same thing (plus 5 shot and full auto?)

that's what I have to say about that.

dave.

[REDRT]

Jeffy-CanCon


NASCAR is the best example that we might hope paintball would follow, IMO.

Wouldn't that just be having us going around in circles? :D

[PBX Ronin 23]

Mel;

You want a standard board to be used by all players in a league, made by the same company? Who's paying for the boards/ chips? People complain about spending 20 bucks on an ID, much less 50-150 dollars for a new electronics set up. Then the lines for factory techs to install these boards (plus the cost of techs having to spend 3 days doing it before each event) I tell ya what, the only winner is the board maker on your plan.

The rule is stupid, but it's a lesser of 2 evils, it puts a cap on rof and some controls on the ramp/ bounce, whatever. At least it's a level playing field for teams and the there isn't going to be the uncontrolled insanity that there was in years past.

Are these guns that essentially shooting 3 shot burst anymore unsafe than the out of the box Spyder Imagine that I have that does the same thing (plus 5 shot and full auto?)

that's what I have to say about that.

dave.
In a perfect world Dave, the rules that govern what constitue a "tournament legal" gun, must go through some form of redefinition to include current realities of the sport. What I'd like to see are boards that are ASTM compliant and that can be certified as such. Make it the gun manufacturers responsibility to implement.

In addition to that, it must be subject to reflashing during events before the games are played. This is where WDP can show some leadership and benevolence towards the industry by allowing for these "certified" boards to have reflashing capabilities. Doing this at the pinnacle level of the sport will trickle down to the lower echelon. Would Kingman continue to make guns with those modes if the kids think that its gay to have them in the first place?

What the manufacturers must hopefully see is that there are liability issues that they're exposed to for not complying with what the ASTM prescribes. Currently, none of them see this because the ASTM is purely an advisory organization when it comes to paintball and they lack the enforcement teeth to force companies to comply.

[Toxic Dave]

The ASTM is a wonderful concept but fact is nobody knows what their guidelines are and it doesn't seem like their even interseted in telling anybody what they want in a perfect world from the manufacturers. Companies are doing all sorts of testing on every sort of equipment you can imagine without any real knowledge of the guidelines.

The real world is going to get invloved with this sport sooner or later, and nobody and I mean nobody is ready. There are companies all over this industry who don't have a friggin clue about safety, assembling tanks wrong, making guns that shoot 25 bps, running the wrong pressures through hoses, all kinds of stuff and those are all major, big money manufacturers. NOT mom and pop shops and fields.

The reason for all of this is we're operating blind here, everything we base our standards on is hearsay and rumor. I want an unbiased, realistic orginization to tell us X balls per second at X fps is dangerous, because of X, do not exceed this. Or X procedure must be followed when putting a valve on a bottle. 2 people were KILLED last year because of improper tank assembly, I can't belive it's not more, we treat insanely high pressure gasses like they're nothing. People in the compressed gas biz look at how we handle 4500 psi like we're insane.

The majority of the people in this sport aren't capable of knowing when too much is far enough, they are all in competition both on the field and in the marketplace to beat the other guy, and aren't willing or capable to regulate themselves. A few years ago there was an bps agreement made and it went out the window as soon as they left the room. Leagues make rules to reign the insanity in and the insanity is the guys making the products that the rules are made for own the league!! SP makes guns that ramp/ bounce call it what you want out of the box and it's against the rules of thier own league, and the same goes for WDP.

We need a real life agency to provide us with real life guidelines to follow, and the products must then pass real life testing to see if they are safe or not. Markers are the least of our problems, ASA's, fittings, Goggle Systems, the whole mess of it needs to get taken more seriously or we're asking for bad trouble in the future. I'm the scuba industry has something similar to what I'm talking about.


dave.

P.S. The man hours alone to re flash all of the chips/ boards in a national event is insane, not to mention the additional equipment. It used to take us roughly 5 minutes a board to reflash the Matrix boards when they are in a gun, in a theoretical world every gun could have a bluetooth or external USB jack on it to speed stuff up, I don't disagree with ya, but I see money getting in the way of that sort of solution.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Well said Dave and I agree with you in terms of the issues that you've enumerated. These issues, such as the role of the manufacturers, must be addressed if the industry is to survive unscathed over the forthcoming lawsuits concerning the two deaths from last year.

[Lee]

Jeffy-CanCon



Wouldn't that just be having us going around in circles? :D

DOH!! :rofl:

[Jeffy-CanCon]

I don’t think they are relevant at all. As posted, the two leagues can’t even agree on a set standard.

And I will toss in another monkey wrench….. Guess what world? MOST paintball players will not play in upper level tournament play. MOST paintball players could care less about the tournament rules or restrictions placed on tournament players. The same way most people who drive cars could care less about what rules NASCAR has for its drivers, and the auto industry as a whole does not look to racing promoters and organizers to determine what is best for ALL cars.

...

I think THE INDUSTRY should start making some rules for THE INDUSTRY and stop looking to those who organize the largest tournament series to make rules for them to follow. The PLAYERS should follow tournament rules, and the INDUSTRY should make rules for itself that will be good for ALL players, tournament, recreational, scenario, etc.

For me, until people stop looking to the tournament leagues to somehow regulate the INDUSTRY, nothing will really get solved.

So although I agree with what Jeffy posted to some degree, I disagree as to how it affects paintball, now. Players would NOT be happy or satisfied that the marker they buy on Monday is NOT the same marker that they saw at a tournament. But I would be all for “special” markers for tournament play, and another for the general public. I just don’t think paintball as a whole, or players in general, are ready for that….. yet.

...

So the next time folks think about what needs to be done in the Industry, try looking at more than one segment of the game…. Let alone the smallest segment of it.

Personally, I gave up on tourneys a while back. I know that it is the smallest segment of the paintball business, but it is the part that gets the most press, and has the best chance of developing into a "legitimate" sport.

PSP & NPPL rules are irrelevant to you and I, and most other players. Just as NASCAR or CART rules are irrelevant to most drivers. But they are relevant to the minority who wants to play/race competitively at a high level.

The problem I see, right now, is that the paintball industry makes no equipment restrictions for themselves, and effectively does not allow them in the playing rules. I think we all agree that, as currently available, e-markers are uncontrollable for tourney-restriction purposes. While the Leagues might agree to allow that, there is another problem in that the manufacturers will sell that same marker to anyone with money. Ford, Honda and Ferrari might sell cars that use elements of their racing technology, but they do not sell complete racecars to the general public.

True, I can buy a car that will effectively complete with a NASCAR, F1 or CART for speed, on the right road. But there are laws (and police) to prevent me from driving the car at those speeds. There is no equivalent control in paintball.



Jeffy-CanCon


Wouldn't that just be having us going around in circles? :D

:rofl:

[PBX Ronin 23]

Looks like people DO WATCH what we say and the substance of our discussions here on AO. Check this out......

http://www.68caliber.com/news/tournament/story04710.php

Way to go Dale!