So wheres the petition - PSP and ramping - why so little outcry?

[Lohman446]

I am surprised at how little uproar there is around the PSP and ramping... personally I don't care about ramping.. though considering the legal ramifactions of being outside of ASTM regulations I am having to reconsider that in my own mind.

When SP sued people there was a petition, a vocal outcry.

Why have we not seen a petition yet to the PSP - or a form letter - something stating that players will not participate in events that openly disregard accepted industry safety standards (ASTM)?

Is it really that we as players don't care. That we beleive there is so little chance of injury that we are willing to accept it (there's danger in every sport, I have chosen to accept the dangers of paintball)? Are we willing to ignore the safety guidelines we have before us just to play and compete?

I'm curious, perhaps a better title was in order.. but I am surprised at how quietly the PSP issue is being let go by players, I have seen little objection (I have seen some, but not much, and like I said, I'm surprised we don't have a form letter or petition yet).

Remember folks - you did nto have a lot of sway on SP... but the PSP you might, they need players, they need tournament players... they need to compete against NPPL - they need to support everything they have that supports the NXL - and the lower divisions do help that dramatically I think.

You know what.. I am still deciding where I stand - I can accept the physical dangers to myself, I am still trying to convince myself that I am willing to accept the legal (criminal) dangers of playing... and there is a good chance that my use of ramping is done until it is accepted by some industry standard.

Not sure at this point that I can accept the risks of using ramping myself... not sure if I can't use ramp if I will participate in the PSP where it is used. I'm not sure on a lot of things. I love the game, I am going to play the game, but new considerations (to me) leave it open to how and where I am going to play in the future.

Where do you stand, do you simply not care, do you simply beleive its a progression of the game? Do you not care because it doesn't have any affect on you?

PS - disclaimer - I am not trying to "ruin" paintball by bringing up issues, I am truly curious, and frankly as I am still considering my own status of how I will play this year, at what level, I would like to see input. I like ramping.. I really like using ramping a lot. However, I am left in the section of do I want to be left in the wind should something go wrong - left outside of the protection of having followed accepted safety standards.

[Lohman446]

Probably because XBall adopted it well before the PSP. So most are numbed to the idea.

Or, there isnt an uproar because people want(and like) ramping.

Or, like you stated, most are like you and dont care.


You cut out a good portion of the idea though in the highlighted text, that even I, who has argued for ramping in the past, am forced with new considerations to reconsider - though I will concede the point that most people will not reconsider there views regardless of issues brought up in the hypothetical. I'm just surprised, that we as an industry, have so readily accepted a departure from ASTM standards.

[Blennidae]

Here's my take on it.

I'm an older guy who plays for the fun of it. I don't keep track of the different leagues, events, and teams. I have no interest in "pro" or tournament paintball. No outcry from me, because I simply don't care. I am hoping at the fields I play at, the standard 1 shot 1 pull rule will be enforced. I expect it will be, as most fields host a variety of player levels. If I walk out on a field and I'm getting pounded by boatloads of guys just hosing at full auto, I'll find another place to play. A tournament setting is one thing at a casual pickup game, the risk of injury due to negligence is too high.

I think the lack of outcry is because of what tournament paintball has become. Cheating is seen as a normal accepted part of the game. This rule makes it slightly more legit. Even the players who felt that a ramping gun was a cheat, can now justify that its ok now, because the rule says so. They can now fight fire with fire in good conscience.

The only people who will lose out are the people who get hurt. There was already one case of that player who was knocked unconscious from multiple hits.

For me watching "pro" paintball is kinda boring, this will make it even more so. Movement is what is fun to watch. Everyone remembers the cool bunker moves, no one cares if the backmen shoot 2 guys out off the break. Its an important aspect, but its not what people come to see.

Just this old guys opinion.

[NukeGoose]

PSP is allowing ramping software because it is almost impossible to catch true cheater boards. By having an easily measurable cap - 15 balls per second - which can be verified on a radar in a fraction of a second, it is much easier to catch and discourage cheaters. It's very hard to tell when someone's pulling 15 per second, adding an extra shot or two because of bounce, and then ramping up to 20 per second. To officially measure it, you've gotta put it up on the Robot, which gives the offending person time to change settings through trigger pulls. Many boards take full advantage of the inability to catch all ramping and bouncing, Predator boards have a setting where the first pull will be full auto at the hopper's max speed, and all subsequent shots are straight semi to avoid detection. Even if you're trying to set up a legal gun, most guns will have a bit of bounce at higher ROF's. By having a 15 BPS cap, anything goes, it is much simpler to catch those who are trying to cheat, and it's safer to have 15 BPS than 22 BPS in the air. I'm not a big fan of ramping period, but I do understand why they did it. With the first 3 shots semi auto and then ramping, some of the danger of overshooting at close range (Bunkering) is less. I think that it will be safer this way actually - because people have greater gun control when they're pulling the trigger with one finger, firmly holding the gun with 2 hands, and letting the gun do the work than when they're concentrating on walking the trigger as quickly as possible.

I don't really see this ramping being brought down to the rec fields, but it wouldn't surprise me to see a movement for a 15 BPS cap at many major fields.

[Lohman446]

I understand the idea behind doing it - in fact I don't at all debate the idea of doing it - it might be a step forward. However, that is in a vacuum.

I do HIGHLY protest any rule that is in blatant disregard of ASTM standards unless there is an industry regulatory body that makes the ASTM obsolete - as it appears ramping is.

[Conversekidz]

With the first 3 shots semi auto and then ramping, some of the danger of overshooting at close range (Bunkering) is less.


They could even lessen it more of the allowed ramping, but it took 10 pulls before the ramping went into effect.

[Lohman446]

Rogue, I could argue that cars that are able to do those things are able to do so for emergency purposes / maneuvers - I know they could electronically limit top speed and maintain bottom end acceleration so I won't make that arguement, but there is an argument for a validity to a higher top speed than legal in vehicles.

[tyrion2323]

I think people have become dishearted once they realized that online petitions do nothing. Very few people on AO will end up even playing PSP or NXL, so it's not like we can boycott them. In order to do that, we'd need to convince pro teams to stop playing, which is not likely.

Like just about everything else in America, things are done unilaterally, and frequently for money. Public approval doesn't sway the big dogs.

[68magOwner]

i still prefer to play semi, even if shooting at a set 15bps cap. But, as a tournament player, i dont mind the 15bps cap, because, for the most part, even though few people can actually legally sustain 15bps cap, the vast majority of people are not shooting 100% legal markers (I know my viking bounces some at higher rates of fire) So, it is slowing down alot of people. And its not like its speeding up many people, so, not a ton to complain about. I feel that even at these mos likeyl slower BPS, there will be more bonus balling, just because thats what my experience with ramping or full auto have shown. But, meh, not a huge deal IMO.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

I agree wholeheartedly with Blennidae. As a rec player, what the NPPL & PSP rules say is of little relevance to me. IMO, the unfortunate part is that the markers are out there, being used at rec fields by fools who get off on bashing the newbies. The manufacturers have shown time and again that they don't care what the rules are, they will do whatever they think will help them sell more markers.

Why isn't there a general protest? The vast majority of paintballers don't play tourneys, so they don't care what the tourney rules are. With the SP lawsuits issue, it seemed like it would affect everyone who wanted an e-marker, so a lot more people were up in arms.

Why aren't tourney players protesting? My guess is that since most of them can't hit 15BPS without ramping, they tend to see it as a way of leveling the playing field.

[GT]

Why have we not seen a petition yet to the PSP - or a form letter - something stating that players will not participate in events that openly disregard accepted industry safety standards (ASTM)?



I have not reviewed the paintball astm standards in awhile, but I am willing to bet that my ULT'ed Mag is completly out of spec with regards to trigger weight. Lets be realistic, what is ASTM? they are little more than a big fancy lab who does "safety" research in all kinds of feilds. Here is the key point: They sell standards. Why would anyone want to put "ASTM 1.2.1345" on a product? Better yet ask a motocyclest, race car driver, or mountian biker why they want ASTM or SNELL on there helmets? Does any paintball player "get: anything from having ASTM stamp on the side of thier model 98rt?

Simple,
because we know they have been tested and are considered safe for the application. Does anyone really care if paintball guns are safe?

[Toxic Dave]

The reason that you've seen little outcry is that for the people who it actually effects, the people playing PSP events, this will slow down the guns that people are playing with, and create real limits to what the markers can do. The guns last year were literally out of control in alot of cases and people were taking beatings on the field. If people chose to cheat in an electronic fashion, there was little that could be doen to stop it.

Fact is it ain't the PSP that's caused this issue, it's the manufacturers that have and there isn't a single MAJOR manufacturer that's innocent.

dave.

[RusskiX]

Here's my take on it.

I'm an older guy who plays for the fun of it. I don't keep track of the different leagues, events, and teams. I have no interest in "pro" or tournament paintball. No outcry from me, because I simply don't care. I am hoping at the fields I play at, the standard 1 shot 1 pull rule will be enforced. I expect it will be, as most fields host a variety of player levels. If I walk out on a field and I'm getting pounded by boatloads of guys just hosing at full auto, I'll find another place to play. A tournament setting is one thing at a casual pickup game, the risk of injury due to negligence is too high.

I think the lack of outcry is because of what tournament paintball has become. Cheating is seen as a normal accepted part of the game. This rule makes it slightly more legit. Even the players who felt that a ramping gun was a cheat, can now justify that its ok now, because the rule says so. They can now fight fire with fire in good conscience.

The only people who will lose out are the people who get hurt. There was already one case of that player who was knocked unconscious from multiple hits.

For me watching "pro" paintball is kinda boring, this will make it even more so. Movement is what is fun to watch. Everyone remembers the cool bunker moves, no one cares if the backmen shoot 2 guys out off the break. Its an important aspect, but its not what people come to see.

Just this old guys opinion.

This pretty much summed up my viewpoint, but I'll add a little more.

1. I've been playing for 16 years and could not even tell you what ASTM stands for, let alone what their regulations are. Call me ignorant, but ASTM has little effect as a "governing" body and less relevance to joe player. Clearly, paintball manufacturers don't care either. What power does ATSM have to enforce their guidelines? Most players have't cried foul because they don't even know about ATSM

2. If ramping is truely dangerous, god help when these boards start filtering into every recball field around. Heck, if the PSP and NPPL can't catch them at major events, how are Mom & Pop operations going to do it?

3. As has already been commented, paintball is all about speed and volume. Players want faster, ramping just provides the consumer with what they want. Evidence the proliferation of aftermarket boards this year alone!

I think there's no outrage because ultimately, for better or worse, its what players want and there is no current regulatory body to prevent it.

[Chronobreak]

yourney players are welcome to do w/e they wish.

infact ibe been stearing away because of bad reffing/cheating players/and ever increasing gun speeds and regulations that arent being upheld.

a good day of rec play is more fun for me now.

ive seen players guns that when set on the table too hard or jerked around wil go off.
as a ref il ask these players to make there triggers less reactive for safety issues.

with the new ramping rules im not gonna be sure how well some people liek taking 15 shots in the back from a few feet away.i certainly wouldnt.

my understanding is 3 shots then it can jump to 15..

so if somone wants 3-4 in your back to make sure your hit you can easily be expecting 15+ :argh:

watching out for markers set like this on rec fields is gonna be a pain...when you have 50+ for an open play you dont have time or resources to check guns for ramping, etc etc.

if a 11 year old gets 15 at a rec field and they rip skin you can expect thers gonna be a lawsuit and or somones getting in trouble and kicked off the field.

[Toxic Dave]

It's not going to take any time for those boards to get into the hands of everyday players...Tippmann's new E-grip ramps, as do a number of other out of the box markers.

Me? I just ordered a CCM J2 pump gun as did a bunch of other people I work with, we played a closed pump game amongst the Cousins, X Ball Direct employees and had an amazing time last week.

Is Autotrigger ramping??

[WARPED1]

My question is, do you play in PSP? If not, why the heck do you care?! If you do, send a petition! But, you wont get anyone that plays PSP to sign, they want max shots, no matter how they get it.

[SlipknotX556]

My question is, do you play in PSP? If not, why the heck do you care?! If you do, send a petition! But, you wont get anyone that plays PSP to sign, they want max shots, no matter how they get it.


You posted what I was gonna basically post :(.


I dont care that in PSP you can ramp, I play PSP and I am happy we can ramp now.

[Lohman446]

You posted what I was gonna basically post :(.


I dont care that in PSP you can ramp, I play PSP and I am happy we can ramp now.


I would be 100% happy with ramping if it were within ASTM standards and I did not beleive that using it left me criminally negligent (we're not discussing a civil suit here, we're discussing jail)... and yes I have played in PSP in the past and had intended to this year. Now I have a choice - either play at a competetive disadvantage or play and risk the criminal liability should something tragic happen.

[Lohman446]

I could argue that 150 mph is unsafe, regardless of the situation. And using any automobile at that speed on a public highway/roadway would endanger all involved and pose more of a danger/risk than the benefit of having the ability to drive that fast.

You cant honestly tell me that a 150 mph car is intended for a 16 year old driver for emergency purposes/manuevers.

You could limit bottom end and top end, which is exactly what I am getting at...its no different than limiting a board. Ultimately, its the user that decides what they do with what they have.

The difference to me, is that vehicles are not manufactured outside of accepted industry standards

[needtosale]

well since i dont play psp i dident care untill last week when i was hit with more than 5 hot shots from a ramping gun luckly i was able to control myself because it was like my 3rd game the guy basicly walked up behind me while i was catching heavy fire from an angel also ramping so if ramping was cut out i would be happy

[Blennidae]

You cant honestly tell me that a 150 mph car is intended for a 16 year old driver for emergency purposes/manuevers.


I think you both have valid points with this analogy. But the thing to remember is what happens to the kid whos parents buy him the 150mph car. He either gets tickets or hurts himself or others. The same parents who will buy this kid the car, are the same ones who will buy him the ramping tourney marker, regardless if he is responsible enough to have it.

[Enemy]

^^ and you can buy chips to remove the speed limiter! loman i do not believe that you would be held accountable if something were to happen more so the tournament promoter ie psp would take the hit for allowing that setting universally!! i dont agree with ramp but when i get into the psp i will do it no doubt!

["the FitZ"]

I am 16 and if you give me a Ferrari Enzo I promise I'll only use it's speed and unbelievable power in emergency situations... :rolleyes:

most new cars are governed now but some are higher governed like the benz i believe is 130 or 40 but then we're getting into some $$
But I have a 93' escort gt that'll pull 140 top speed...zoom zoom

And as far as ramping goes I can see someone getting tagged w/ about 10-12 balls when the ramping kicks in mid-bunker.
And to those that say you can't tell if a gun is ramping you must be kidding. Just look at the vid for the ion. It's like pop...pop..pop pop pop ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp very obvious And in some cases it's the same w/ bounce. In my opinion it just takes away from the skills of the game. So I could, with going on 5 years experience, a very sparse 5, go out and play competitively w/ good pro teams. The pros may start to say something when they get the poopie shot out of them by a wide-eyed 10 yr. old. "I'm sorry I gogged you umpteen times w/ the gun my daddy bought for me!"

[Lohman446]

^^ and you can buy chips to remove the speed limiter! loman i do not believe that you would be held accountable if something were to happen more so the tournament promoter ie psp would take the hit for allowing that setting universally!! i dont agree with ramp but when i get into the psp i will do it no doubt!


I beleive, that if I use a marker that does not apply to ASTM standards and something happens that I may very well be criminally and civilly liable - see the thread at the top for my thoughts on this.

[Lohman446]

1) I am not familiar with automotive standards. Would you please show me where it says 150 mph(or any safe speed) is acceptable?

2) I think you mean they are the ASTM standards.

If the majority of the industry(paintball industry) isnt following what you call the accepted industry standards, then Id argue they arent accepted industry(paintball industry) standards.


In general automobile makers set car speed limiters to the speed rating of a tire - the speed that a tire will begin to loose structural integrity. I would say that new vehicles do meet certain standards for front and side impact survival, air bags, seat belts, and other safety equipment. There are standards that vehicles are expected to be up to and in some cases required. My point here is if the ASTM were to say for example "brake systems must be hydraulic with a mechanical backup" and someone in the industry was to use magnetic brakes (even if they beleived them safe) without having the testing to back them up they would be criminally negligent should something happen.

[mercury]

Just some input from me. First of all, I play rec ball so again, this doesn't seem to have too much affect on me. There are always guys with wicked fast markers at the fields I play at and I just live with it. If I take a few bonus balls, so what (it always happens, even a few years back when things weren't AS fast.) I go there expecting to get hit by these little paint projectiles.

I will say this, however, the automobile analogy is somewhat off. Automobiles, when designed to where they can do 150 mph, will generally not be driven at their limit, especially not all the time. Especially because there is a defined law that you are required to know about before you get your driver's license and there are consequences to breaking that law, and in the case of driving 150 MPH, serious ones. There are exceptions to this rule as in anything, such as an anyone who is an idiot and feels the need to drive that fast on a public road. A marker that will do 20+ bps WILL be fired at that speed. The exception to this rule, however, is the person who has the capability to fire that fast but doesn't. Then again, if they weren't wanting to fire at a high rate, why spend the money on a marker that can. Before all this controversy, most people probably didn't even know about the ASTM, as was stated before. Also, last time I played, I wasn't required to know a BPS limit before using my marker. So, why wouldn't someone with a marker that can fire at 20 bps fire it at that rate?

In all honesty, I don't care how fast a marker shoots. You play this game knowing that there is a distinct possibility that you will be hit with paintballs and the slight possibility that you will get injured or even seriously injured. It's like that with many sports and recreational activities. If you can't deal with the possibility of getting injured then don't play this sport...or any sport for that matter. ROF is not the thing I worry about. I don't honestly believe that 20 bps has much more possibility of harming me or anyone else than 15 bps does. If they ever stop caring about velocities, then I will have a problem. I also don't think this affects the majority of the players, rec ballers. Many rec ballers don't have markers that shoot that fast (including me) and the one's that do will most likely not be regulated by anyone. This rule will not matter to the majority of players. And, if you're a tourny player and aren't used to high ROF's, then you're probably in the wrong place.

Take all this for what it is, just my humble opinion. :shooting: