Something New for Tom to think about

[kruger]

Ok, been thinking about it for a while and thought I should get it into the open. If this has been tried or thought of before, then I apologize in advance.

When a paintball is in the barel of a marker, it is at rest. Tremendous forces are applied to the paintball when the compressed air is introduced to fire the paintball from the marker. The paintball has to overcome the energy of the air in the barel and push the air from the marker as the paintball accelerates down the barel. Could you, or would you want to, inject a small burst of high pressure air in front of the ball, just micro-seconds prior to actually firing the ball?
This would do two things for you. First, it would get the air in the barrel moving in the right direction (away from the ball), thus creating less resistance on the ball as it leaves the marker. (lower operating pressure) And second, it would create a vaccuum on the front side of the ball to actually pull the ball forward. Timing would be critical on this one. Thoughts???

[BigEvil]

Even if, hypothetically, this increased range by 200 feet, people would complain that it's not air-efficent.

[kruger]

just an idea that I was toying with. What it would really do is allow you to lower your operating pressure. You dont have to dump a ton of air down the barrel, just enough to start the air moving away from the ball so the ball does not lose energy trying to push the air out. I do realize that we are talking about a small advantage here and there would probably be no great leap in paintball tech gained, but as in Drag racing, it's easy to make the 6 sec range, the hard part is shaving those tenths off of the time. Same principal here.

[UTDragun]

it's not air-efficent.
:nono:

[CKY_Alliance]

ok im not sure i understand you correctly. what your saying is inject a burst of air in front of the ball going away from the ball kinda like dry firing then shooting the paintball? the burst of air in front of the ball would have no affect on the ball because its in front of it if anything wouldnt suck the ball down the barrrel and casue the bolt to not even hit the ball causing even worse distance? maybe i misunderstood what you are saying.

[kruger]

like I said, timing is everything here. With electro boards, you can fire a sol. at any time you want. We are talking microseconds prior to the release of the air to fire the paintball. You would have to use a specially built barrel for this to work. In front of the ball, have two small air ports in front of where the ball is setting. At a calculated time, "X" microseconds before the ball is fired, you shoot a small burrst of air in front of the ball, down the barrel. This starts the air in the barrel moving down the barrel, or away from the ball if you understand that better. It also creates a small vaccuum on the ball and tugs it into motion down the barrel. Then, the marker releases the main charge of air to send the ball on its way. No ball energy(or very little) is wasted moving the air from the barrel, so you can theoretically use a lower operating pressure to fire the ball. The amount of air that would be needed to shoot in front of the ball would be very small.

[Head knight of Ni]

K.i.s.s.

[kruger]

Oh Knight of NI, I do agree with the KISS principals of life. If all followed those pricipals, then Smart Parts would not be. BUT, others do like to complicate things a bit, and I am just tossing another idea into the stew to see if it falls to the bottom or perks up to the top. The Engineering on this would not be that difficult, and you could retro fit your barrels for this. The timing would be the touchy part, and I think that you would need another solenoid for this to work. Ramping boards and debounce are commonplace nowadays. These are not simple things and people rush out to get them everyday. This would, in my opinion, be something that would improve the efficiency of a marker. This thread was in the Deep Blue section of the forums, but was not deemed worthy of that section. I really wanted Tom to get this idea and see if it had any merit. He has the resources to see if it is viable or just a waste of time, which, obviously I have plenty of right now....... :D

[hitech]

To what end?

[Kallahan]

It wouldn't add that much range because as soon as the pre-blast exited the barrel it would rapidly dissipate. It would be louder, more air coming out of the barrel. It would also probably weaken the ball considerably by pushing it against the bolt, maybe breaking it (there is no way I can think of to keep this system from effect a ball in the breach) . And as afomentioned wouldn't be air efficent.

Short story, the only way to sell it is to put it on a timmy.

[kruger]

well, the standard answert is this: Better efficiency, lower operating pressure, able to use even the most brittle of paints, less distortion on the paintball therefore more accuracy. Items at rest tend to stay at rest. Items in motion tend to stay in motion. If you move the air for the ball, then the ball does not work as hard to acheive its selected rate of speed. For the ball to move, the air's gotta move out of the way.

I am not looking to get anything off of this idea, if that is what you are referring to Hitech. I just thought that it is an idea that may be of some use to people in the paintball industry. Its actual value may be negligible at low rates of fire, but at higher rates? I dont know fluid dynamics well enough to tell that answer.

[kruger]

As for added range, I never said that it would add range to the ball. That was referred to in another post. But, it could provide better accuracy. Also, if you are familiar with the Venturi effect, then that is the principal that I base this on. If you are not familiar with this, then think of a carburator on a car. Air rushes into an engine and draws fuel in with it. The holes in the barrel would be put in at an angle (not 90deg) to the ball. Pointed away from the ball down the barrel. This would create the Venturi effect in the barrel and move the air out and start the ball down the barrel. Just so all know, the ports would be placed between the exit end of the barrel and some slight distance in front of the ball.

[AGDlover]

i see where your comeing from but if you watch a paintball comeing out of a barrel in slow-mo u can actualy see that a paintball foarms an oval shape because of the speed. thus being said because of the speed it wouldnt help at all

[kruger]

is it because of speed? or air resistance to the ball getting up to speed? In a vaccuum, there would be less deformity to the ball. I do understand that inertia will cause the ball to deform, but not really that much at the speed (300 fps) we are talking about.

[AGDlover]

mostly because of air resistance because of an un arowdynamice object trying to go 200 some odd MPH and you dont see and sphear shaped dragsters do ya? its kinda like a red line effect i guess you could say

[evan123]

Tom is out of paintball?

[SOAD8789]

yeah, i was wondering why tom would want to think about this too...as he no longers owns agd...

its a great theory, but wouldnt the air that you send down the barrel prior to the gun actually firing make up for the air that you would actually save from firing the formal way? i doubt it would completly negate the effect, but would it actually be worth it? If you want to try and do this, it would be badass...

when a marker is firing at 15 BPS, wouldnt air already be moving out of the barrel though? that is really fast, and there is probably still some air moving out of the barrel when the next paintball is discharged....maybe not.

[Miscue]

yeah, i was wondering why tom would want to think about this too...as he no longers owns agd...


Yes he does.

[nuclear zombie]

air usually expands in a spherical direction , yes you can direct and guide it to an extent. after you've injected the air pulse into the barrel it could momentarily form a vaccum in front of the ball. However that area of vaccum will collapse faster than the ball can accellerate and posssibly causing a negative effect as the inertia of the air rushing to fill the void creates another even larger force to overcome than what you started out with. If you accelerate the ball fast enough to use the vaccum then you still have to contend with air you just released in front of it which will be slowing down ( in a sense that it will be expanding less rapidly as it approaches equilibrium wiith the atmospheric pressure)


edited for spelling

[Kallahan]

Ok, edited previous post to clear up something. When air expands it expands in every direction it can, normally it cannot expand back towards you much during the firing of the paintball because the marker is in the way, this directs the airflow forward, but a paintball will deform under presure, so putting HP air in front of the paintball first will sqiush the painball against the bolt. You could direct the airflow mostly away from the ball (IE send it through angled ports going into the barrel after the breach, but that would only exsaperate the effect. Fluids in general go from high pressure to low pressure, putting a stream of air, even air going out will still be pulled to the low pressure area behind the high pressure stream. Evacuating air from a chamber requires a vacume (well you can fill the chamber with water or anything denser than air, but thats beside the point). Also that would be fairly complex.

[trains are bad]

Honestly, this is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.

[Kallahan]

Honestly, this is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Please do not flame. Be nice and back up your thoughts with reasoning.

[AGDlover]

ya dude you cant blame him for thinking of an idea and asking questions about it

[slade]

ok, from what i see this would have no positive effects on firing a paintball. the small air dump in front of the ball would cause the pressure to INCREASE, and even if you take into account the air moving away from the ball this would still negate from the efficiency and add pressure on the ball. I think see where you are coming from with the vacuum in front of the ball, im assuming you mean a vacuum will be created right after the pressure from the first shot dissipates, but even IF a vacuum was created (i dont know quite enough to know if one would be) the second shot would have to be fired at the EXACT right time so that it would not fire before, when there is still pressure left, or too late, after the vacuum has dissipated. and also the vacuum would be too small for there to be much of an effect if any. another thing you have to consider is the fact that the air pressure from the first shot will push against the ball, pushing it back into the barrel. also you mentioned the ball becoming deformed with the high air pressure. Tom did research on this and found out that the ball barely becomes misshapen at all. this mod would not make a difference on the deformation of the paint. also if the first shot is low pressure, and the second is higher, the pressure from the second may go back down the hose and blow something. unlikely, but possible.


i see where your comeing from but if you watch a paintball comeing out of a barrel in slow-mo u can actualy see that a paintball foarms an oval shape because of the speed. thus being said because of the speed it wouldnt help at all
no, that is because of the shutter speed. the ball moves slightly while the shutter is open and thus it appears elongated. if you had a camera with a REALLY fast shutter speed you could see the ball in midair undeformed.

[trains are bad]

Thoughts???

How was I flaming? He asked for my opinion.

[tyrion2323]

The idea won't work. The reason is because the creation of a vaccuum dictates that there must be an almost hermetic seal between the ball and the air. By shooting a small bit of air into the barrel, no seal is created, and it would simply displace a bit of air without creating that seal.

My guess is that you're trying to recreate the effect of car-engine headings. Awesome idea, but it won't work.

[Echo419]

Why would Tom need to think about it... Tom isn't the head anymore

[Jack & Coke]

Even if, hypothetically, this increased range by 200 feet....



:tard:

[AGDlover]

ok, from what i see this would have no positive effects on firing a paintball. the small air dump in front of the ball would cause the pressure to INCREASE, and even if you take into account the air moving away from the ball this would still negate from the efficiency and add pressure on the ball. I think see where you are coming from with the vacuum in front of the ball, im assuming you mean a vacuum will be created right after the pressure from the first shot dissipates, but even IF a vacuum was created (i dont know quite enough to know if one would be) the second shot would have to be fired at the EXACT right time so that it would not fire before, when there is still pressure left, or too late, after the vacuum has dissipated. and also the vacuum would be too small for there to be much of an effect if any. another thing you have to consider is the fact that the air pressure from the first shot will push against the ball, pushing it back into the barrel. also you mentioned the ball becoming deformed with the high air pressure. Tom did research on this and found out that the ball barely becomes misshapen at all. this mod would not make a difference on the deformation of the paint. also if the first shot is low pressure, and the second is higher, the pressure from the second may go back down the hose and blow something. unlikely, but possible.


no, that is because of the shutter speed. the ball moves slightly while the shutter is open and thus it appears elongated. if you had a camera with a REALLY fast shutter speed you could see the ball in midair undeformed.

but its still an un stable shpere so it doesnt keep a constant shape

[Army]

Paintballs do NOT wobble in flight. The shell is too stiff for that.

..And yes, AGD has already proven this too. Pictures are available in Deep Blue.

[kruger]

ok, Vaccuum was a bad choice of words. It would not create a vaccuum, but if the ports are aimed down towards the exit end of the barrel, then injecting hi pressure air would draw the ball towards the air stream and get the collum of air in the barrel moving. Also, we are not talking a great deal of air, just a bump to move the air in the barrel, only a few micro seconds long. And, as previously stated by another post, for a vaccuum, it would have to be sealed and the ball would not seal that end . I once again cite the Venturi effect. This effect is proven. The pricipals are the same. Also, like I said, timing is everything here and the timing could be acheived easily with a circuit board. The point of this thread is to tweak a little more performance out of a marker, not make major leaps down the paintball path. If you think about it, the pricipal is sound and if you agree with the pricipal, then the rest is just engineering bumps.

We have reached a point in the development of paintball markers that most people are satisfied with the speed that the markers shoot. 25 to 30 is faster than a vast majority of players can shoot. I dont care who you are, you just cant do it UNASSISTED. That means electronically. There may be the rare player that can do it, but not on a regular basis. That leaves only a coupla areas that need work. Accuracy, efficiency and range. I pose to you that the way that the paintball is fired from a marker greatly affects all three of the above mentioned areas. If not, then why choose a closed bolt over an open one? Spool over blowback? IF all markers can shoot 300fps, then what is the difference?

[ScatterPlot]

A vacuum would indeed be created, and I don't think the backpressure would hurt the ball TOO much, but the problem would be at a point a few inches in front of the "rest" position. The air would pull it the ball some, but when it fired out it would hit the higher pressure, higher volume of air that was shot in front of it and negate positive effects achieved. Think of it like tailing an 18-wheeler. At first, it will suck you in behind it in it's wake, but then you hit the truck. And firing at 15 BPS doesn't really compare to this; this would be like the balls are fired with one a couple INCHES in front of the other, rather than feet; that's like a million shots a second. Don't really know how much but the calculations have been done and while they are simple I don't wanna do them. Trust me, it's not anywhere close to attainable in anything we have now.

[minimag03]

Take a old Shocker with an air assist and drill a small hole in the barrel. Let us know how it works out.

[Maggot6]

Seems like a logical idea. Hope someone picks it up.

[kruger]

well, Maggot6, thats all I really wanted to do. Try and get this idea to someone who might be able to take this and see where it could go.

[ColdFuzion]

Awww, I just sold my Air Assist Shocker!!! This would not be the venturi effect, though. This would be waay different. The venturi theory is that is air is directed evenly on the surface of a paintball, it will accelerate better, with less deformation, and no, it is not yet prooved effectice. I personally hate venturis...

-Cold

[kruger]

ColdFusion, I beg to differ with you. The Venturi effect is proven. As I previously stated, this is the effect that makes carburators work. Air at velocity will draw a vaccuum, (or towards a vaccuum) behind it. That is how the fuel is drawn into the engine of a car (pre fuel injection). And, I dont think that an old style shocker would work. The air assist is part of the main air charge, there would be no time difference in the ported air and the firing of the paintball,

[hitech]

I repeat, to what end? What possible positive effect is this going to have?

[Army]

ColdFusion, I beg to differ with you. The Venturi effect is proven. As I previously stated, this is the effect that makes carburators work. Air at velocity will draw a vaccuum, (or towards a vaccuum) behind it. That is how the fuel is drawn into the engine of a car (pre fuel injection).

No. Air is drawn in by the suction created by the pistons as they descend. The Venturi Effect is; Air will occupy the position in space at all times, the air passing through a Venturi is forced to accelerate while compressing in order to maintain that same position. The effect can also be seen on hillsides facing the wind. The air at the bottom of the hill, is moving at the same velocity as the air at the top. In order for the "bottom" air to pass over the hill, it is forced to accelerate to the top...while maintaining it's same position in relation to the "top" air (if you fly RC slope sailplanes, this is the wind effect you use for lift and acceleration)

In a carburator, this accelerated air blows across a tube with exposed fuel. The now high speed air will hit the fuel, blasting it into a fine mist. The vacuum created by the falling piston will now draw this air/fuel mixture into the cylinder.

With all THAT been said, this paintball idea................blows.

:D

[SlartyBartFast]

No. Air is drawn in by the suction created by the pistons as they descend. The Venturi Effect is; Air will occupy the position in space at all times, the air passing through a Venturi is forced to accelerate while compressing in order to maintain that same position. The effect can also be seen on hillsides facing the wind. The air at the bottom of the hill, is moving at the same velocity as the air at the top. In order for the "bottom" air to pass over the hill, it is forced to accelerate to the top...while maintaining it's same position in relation to the "top" air (if you fly RC slope sailplanes, this is the wind effect you use for lift and acceleration)


Umm. You don't quite have it right. I think you're both wrong. :D

The venturi effect causes suction and vacum. That's why the gasoline in a carburator is drawn into the air stream.

Similarily, air powered blowers/multipliers use small amounts high pressure air through a venturi to move large amounts of lower pressure air.

The reason this particular idea wouldn't work is that more energy would be wasted moving this "fictitious" problem of the air in the barrel than is used by simply pushing the back of the paintball directly.

[kruger]

I thank you all for your opinions on this subject. I consider this thread closed.