Rebound, Ramping???

[dolphin1823]

Ok, I’m confused :confused: …is there a difference between Rebound and Ramping? Reading some ads for the Ion, Nerve, and the 05 Shocker w/ Nerve board, some ads say “with Rebound mode” and some say with “with Ramping mode”. I had thought Rebound mode was similar to like what the RT does, pushing the trigger back to ready to fire position with gas. And I believe Ramping is like what we used to call “turbo or hyper modes” where the marker will cycle more times than the trigger is pulled, which correct me if I’m wrong are not tournament legal. So I’m starting to wonder about these modes for rec ball play because this last summer Challenge Park Extreme in Joliet banded the Response Trigger for the Tippmann A-5. So how long till markers with these modes will be band from other playing fields? :tard:

[peewee]

I'm in the same boat as you totally confused about this. As I see it an RT should be legal now.

[andreb]

Rebound lowers the debounce filter as you start to pull faster so it starts to make teh gun bounce more. Ramping adds shots "on purpose". None are tournament legal outside the PSP but it is not the same as RT.

[magman007]

no, rebound is just sp's way of saying ramping. thats all it is. you can be pulling 5 bps and shooting 15 at the cap.

[68magOwner]

SP says rebound lowrers debounce, but, anyone who has it knows that the trigger could be 200 lb (not bounce-able) but, it will take off after 4bps so, yeah, its the same as ramping, no, it is not legal, anywhere, ever (because it is not capped at 15bps)

[FallNAngel]

SP says rebound lowrers debounce, but, anyone who has it knows that the trigger could be 200 lb (not bounce-able) but, it will take off after 4bps so, yeah, its the same as ramping, no, it is not legal, anywhere, ever (because it is not capped at 15bps)

A) Just because the trigger is stiff doesn't mean it can't bounce. They're referring to electrical bounce, not mechanical.
B) Actually, it can be capped by setting the pulse times correctly.

[sabrefanpc]

the reason the tipman rt was banned is b/c it fires on the pull and again at release. for a mech, the rule is one pull, one shot, so tipman rts have never technically been tourny legal

[Korrosion]

the reason the tipman rt was banned is b/c it fires on the pull and again at release. for a mech, the rule is one pull, one shot, so tipman rts have never technically been tourny legal
No it does not. It is one pull one shot. It is stupidly easy to sweetspot ala z-man with his retro valves.

[sabrefanpc]

zman used a mag with a rt (ReTro) valve

tipmans have an rt (Response Trigger)

[shatter_storm]

the reason the tipman rt was banned is b/c it fires on the pull and again at release. for a mech, the rule is one pull, one shot, so tipman rts have never technically been tourny legal


The reason the RT's are not legal in tournament play is because most rules state that a trigger pull consists of a pull and a release. With a RT system, you are only pulling the trigger, not releasing it - thus, not allowed.

[MarkM]

Rebound is a newer version of Turbo it may well drop the filters to make bounce but the result is still more shots than trigger pulls

Ramping can take two forms. One is adding shots. One is increasing the dwell which will increase velocity.

For tournament legality you have to cut through what the makers tell you and ask the simple question will I be allowed to use the marker using these "features" This same answer is also confused as what the PSP allows is different to the NPPL and in turn the CFOA what you need is a board that will allow you to take part in all of these tournaments simply by switching modes to the one legal for that event. Currently there is only one option for this and that is the aftermarket board made by TAG called the Predator.
The only way around this otherwise is a different board for each tournament event.
WDP don't have the capped modes nor do Smart Parts nor do NPS and nor do DYE (all of these comments are meant in that currently they don't). Admittedly it is the aftermarket boards that have forced these new rulings and unfortuantely some aftermarket boards were too good at what they were doing so that forced the issue, trouble is the Main dealers (for want of a better term) don't have the boards to perform within all of these rules.

[Korrosion]

Currently there is only one option for this and that is the aftermarket board made by TAG called the Predator.

I think Tadao boards can do this, at least the newest one can. Don't hold me to it though.

[Korrosion]

zman used a mag with a rt (ReTro) valve

tipmans have an rt (Response Trigger)
I dont care what they call it. Both guns can return the trigger with more force then takes to pull it. Still only fires one shot per pull and release. Tippman uses a ram, AGD uses valve design.

[tony3]

I think Tadao boards can do this, at least the newest one can. Don't hold me to it though.

You are correct, the new tadao musashi 3 coding has illegal and legal modes. The new virtue chip from advantage pb also has legal and illegal modes.

[MarkM]

I think Tadao boards can do this, at least the newest one can. Don't hold me to it though.

A Predator can be installed in ANY electro ;) The thread is about modes not specific markers as such.

http://www.tagsportz.com/sales/Predlock.htm

[Automaggot68]

A Predator can be installed in ANY electro ;) The thread is about modes not specific markers as such.

http://www.tagsportz.com/sales/Predlock.htm
I thought it was only in single noid electro's?

[Miscue]

Ok, I’m confused :confused: …is there a difference between Rebound and Ramping?

Minus the smoke & mirrors - it's the difference between a hummer and playing the flute.

[magman007]

You are correct, the new tadao musashi 3 coding has illegal and legal modes. The new virtue chip from advantage pb also has legal and illegal modes.


actually, TADAO is made to the specifics of the 3 leagues PSP, NXL and NPPL, set in the correct tournament mode, you will be 100% legal. Tadao really makes the best chips todate, and its great that he has expanded his opperations to even more markers

[MarkM]

I thought it was only in single noid electro's?
No, if you have a dual solenoid marker you order the Predator that will power dual solenoids.

Tadao work in how many markers? They are all coming soon not available, the Predator is already here (stock levels permitting)

[tony3]

actually, TADAO is made to the specifics of the 3 leagues PSP, NXL and NPPL, set in the correct tournament mode, you will be 100% legal. Tadao really makes the best chips todate, and its great that he has expanded his opperations to even more markers


Umm, not really on the nxl, nxl allows full auto, which is not found on any tadao chip. Also what I said some modes are illegal and legal is true. The psp ramping mode is not legal in nppl therefore it is an illegal mode under certain circumstances.

[Jack & Coke]

from: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/smartparts/nerve/rebound/






http://i134.exs.cx/img134/7049/titlerebound3zw.jpg

A look at Rebound
By Bill Mills - March 2005



Back in 1997, Smart Parts introduced Turbo Mode for the Shocker paintgun. This immediately led to controversy while teams, tournament promoters and referees debated whether or not Turbo Mode was legal in tournaments, or even under paintball field insurance policies.

In 1998 my wife and I stopped in at Smart Parts factory in Pennsylvania on the way home for the International Amateur Open. While there we had the opportunity for an in-depth demonstration of Turbo Mode, not just how it felt on the paintgun, but how it worked, recording solenoid outputs and trigger switch data with a multi-track oscilloscope.

That trip, interview and testing resulted in the article “A look at turbo mode” (the original article can be found here (http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/turbo/index.shtml).)


http://i134.exs.cx/img134/677/oldshocker8sy.jpg

At the time the article was written the NPPL, and other leagues still hasn’t decided exactly how to classify Turbo Mode. Those who wanted to use Turbo Mode argued that the signal spikes coming from the switch all counted as trigger pulls, and thus Turbo Mode never fired more than one shot per trigger pull, and was a legal semi-automatic. Those who didn’t want Turbo Mode allowed argued that “trigger pull” meant a pull and release on the trigger by a finger, and sub-movements, or switch noise did not count as trigger pulls, thus Turbo Mode fired more shots than trigger pulls, and was not tournament or field legal.

What was needed was a clarification in rules. Trigger pull needed to be more clearly defined so that everyone following a rule set could clearly tell if Turbo Mode would be allowed or not. In short, the rules needed to catch up with technology.

For a short time Turbo Mode was allowed, subject to a rate of fire cap while teams and promoters heatedly argued about how it should be classified. The NPPL re-wrote their rules and Ultimate Judge, Bill Cookston decreed that Turbo Mode did not fit within the league’s definition of semi-automatic. This rendered the debates over legality moot.

Similarly most companies insuring paintball fields stated that Turbo Mode did not fit within their definition of semi-automatic, and thus would not be allowed for use.

After a bit of an absence, various enhanced trigger modes have begun appearing on the market. In some cases, paintguns have had internal software that works on the same principles as the original Turbo Mode’s shot buffer and have a user adjustable software switch bounce filter. If the debounce setting is turned low enough, the effect is similar to that of the original Turbo Mode.

To complicate things even more, some aftermarket companies have even produced circuit boards that fire several times for each trigger pull, but only when a secret mode is activated. Because this type of software based cheat is undetectable without knowing the code to activate it, some leagues such as the NXL and PSP have modified their rules once again. At the time of this writing, both the PSP and NXL allow enhanced modes of fire with certain safety-oriented restrictions and subject to a fifteen ball per second maximum rate of fire cap.

Seeing the writing on the wall for changes in allowed firing modes, Smart Parts revived the concept of Turbo Mode by putting what they call Rebound as a feature in the Nerve, later model Shocker SFT paintguns, and the Ion....

Read the rest of the article here:



http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/smartparts/nerve/rebound/






...lots of neat test pics and graphs too:

http://i134.exs.cx/img134/2962/ram3yd.jpg http://i134.exs.cx/img134/1262/rebound2126ln.gif http://i134.exs.cx/img134/4937/rebound512pps1zz.gif


Once again... excellent stuff from Bill Mills! :cheers: