Stock Tac oneVs.Stock 04 Cocker

[Swampthing777]

Allrighty,

Firstly, let me say something about paintball guns. I am of the mindset that a paintball gun should be like Italian food. It should be good all the way through. If the bread is good then the main course will be too. Thats why I like markers that are smoking out of the box. (After all at 400 bucks they ought to be).
Therefore when I ask for advice I am speaking about the guns in mostly stock form.
(That ismaybe a barrel or a drop forward or something but no internal mods)

I have been in the sport now for about 6 yrs.

My first gun was a Spyder TL and it was great ...I got it for its simplicity and durability it was all of that.But of course low rate of fire and poor consistency/accuracy
At one point I was actually looking at the old NOVA series because for the most part they where similair in design to mags but a little less expensive...

anyway...since then I purchased an 04' cocker with the vertical feed. I have a drop forward and a LAPCO bigshot on it.

The first time I used it in a scenario game at Waynes World in Ocala , I had to go through a major hassle just to chrono it...(Had to take the cocking rod off and then get the allen wrench in there to tweak it). Then it chopped the hell out of my ammo. I actually had a jammed gun in head to head combat. Needless to say I was rather pissed. I worked on my trigger pull technique and resolved some of the chopping issues and I got a better barrel.
This solved most of the chopping problems. However I have always been nervous about the complexity of the cocker.
That being said I respect its accuracy quite a bit. I like to be able to lay down paint in a pinch. However, I find myself usually taking a back position and firing carefully from the tree line.

Also keep in mind, that compared to the Spyder, my gas efficiency with CO2 was significantly worse on the cocker.

I looked at mags before I got the cocker.
However, everyone told me that ,"closedbolt" markers were so much more accurate. I think it sounds reasonable, however, I have since determined that paint match and shot consistency are equally critical if not more so...at least with airguns i am seriously looking at the tac.

Before...I had always heard that in stock form... mags where gas hogs, and inaccurate...although they could lay paint. I value accuracy and simplicity.
Gas innefficiency I can live with but I need accuracy.

So...

My question is

in regards to the TAC ONE, which do you think is more accurate. AGD Tac One or WGP 04' Vert Feed Cocker

Assuming paint and barrel match. Also keep in mind that I have not done anything to the cocker internally and dont plan to.

So basically we are talking about essentially stock markers (give or take a barrel and bottom line).

Also...can the TAC ONE operate with CO2 (Can it...not should it).

Also exactly how does the mag cycle? (I.e. does the barrel blow forward...is there an internal bolt...what).

I have alwyas liked the looks of the mag...the mini was my favorite looks wise. I think simplicity is beautiful...it works and thats all that matters.

Frankly the Cocker is heavy and bulky at times...especially when running through brush. I just know that one day a thorn or something is going to snag a hose and that'll be it for a while for the cocker.

Allrighty, this looks like you guys know your stuff I look forward to talking with you

Swampthing

[TheTramp]

Obviously there is no difference in accuracy if you are shooting the same fps and using good paint to barrel match. As said a thousand times.

Mag is open bolt blow forward.

You cannot use CO2 with the Tac-1 unless you were to get rid of the X-Valve and put in a classic valve. Even then I wouldn't use CO2 personally.

The stock Tac-1 with the X-Valve is going to be significantly faster than the Stock Cocker and will also have built in chop protection.

The TAC-1 is not the most efficient gun but you basically can’t chop and it’s the fastest non electro gun out there.

Once again THE ACCURACEY THING IS A MYTH PLEASE READ THE MANY THREADS AND ARTICALS QUOTING BENCH TESTS THAT PROVE THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Allrighty,
...

My question is

in regards to the TAC ONE, which do you think is more accurate. AGD Tac One or WGP 04' Vert Feed Cocker

Assuming paint and barrel match. Also keep in mind that I have not done anything to the cocker internally and dont plan to.

So basically we are talking about essentially stock markers (give or take a barrel and bottom line).

Also...can the TAC ONE operate with CO2 (Can it...not should it).

Also exactly how does the mag cycle? (I.e. does the barrel blow forward...is there an internal bolt...what).

I have alwyas liked the looks of the mag...the mini was my favorite looks wise. I think simplicity is beautiful...it works and thats all that matters.

Frankly the Cocker is heavy and bulky at times...especially when running through brush. I just know that one day a thorn or something is going to snag a hose and that'll be it for a while for the cocker.

Allrighty, this looks like you guys know your stuff I look forward to talking with you

Swampthing

Accuracy-wise, they should be very similar. It's mostly dependent on paint-barrel match, and consistent velocity.

The Tac-One does not operate with CO2 at this time. There was talk of selling a mod for the regulator that would allow it to operate with CO2, but I don't think it is available.

The bolt moves in all the AGD guns. It is held to the rear by a strong spring, and pulling the trigger releases the gas to push the bolt forward and fire the paintball. Note: the actual gas-pressure on the ball itself is as low or lower than "low pressure" electros.

[SCpoloRicker]

Yes! I so prefer the good old cocker vs mag argument over any others!

/serious

I would point you towards Compressed Air instead of CO2. Beyond that, I'd say go used and pick up both! Maybe not a Tac-1, but RT ules are usually around 4-500, and used 2kx cockers hover around 175-200 used.

Accuracy is, to a degree, effected by paint to barrel. IMO, consistent recharge is the most important factor in shooting tight ropes of paint.

[Target Practice]

Accuracy is, to a degree, effected by paint to barrel. IMO, consistent recharge is the most important factor in shooting tight ropes of paint.

Exactly! This is why I've moved away from Xvalves, the valve that comes on the Tac One. It's made out of Al to save weight, but this also makes it subject to higher inconsistencies at the chrono. I had two Xvalves, and I could never get them to work correctly. I who-- Damn, gotta go to class.

[SlartyBartFast]

It's made out of Al to save weight, but this also makes it subject to higher inconsistencies at the chrono.

:confused:

What on Earth are you talking about? What the valve is made of has nothing to do with how consistent it is.

[SCpoloRicker]

:confused:

What on Earth are you talking about? What the valve is made of has nothing to do with how consistent it is.

I DO NOT know this for sure, but this is not the first time I've heard that the SS valves are a little bit more consistent than the Aluminum ones.

[Almeister]

I DO NOT know this for sure, but this is not the first time I've heard that the SS valves are a little bit more consistent than the Aluminum ones.

I've never heared of that before. I have both and I see no inconsistencies in either one. The only difference I see between the stainless steel and aluminum is durability and weight. If anyone else cares to add to that please feel free.

[trains are bad]

I do not reccomend any flavor of mag if you plan to use CO2.

There should be no accuracy difference due to the marker design. Accuracy is mostly affected by the quality of the paint you are shooting.

[Swampthing777]

Does anybody know where I can see a moving diagram of the mag's interal operation?

As for accuracy, there is something to be said for internal movement and accuracy. Because the paintball is travelling slowly (relatively speaking when compared with other projectiles).
The more rattle the action causes ,the more the vibration and thus your accuracy is decreased.

Thus , there is something to be said for closed bolt operation.

That being said...ive shot the cocker for about a year now. I like it...however, consistency and ease of portability is also very important to me.

Accuracy ... yeah... ok...paint to barrel is critical, I know . The short of my question I think is which one is more consistent? Cocker with stock internals or Tac 1?


right now I'm thinking that tac 1 wins that bet based on the other posts i have seen that discuss chrono speeds.

One thing I can say is that the cocker is better velocity wise than the spyder but never as tight as the x-valve setup apperantly is.

Compressed air, i suppose is the way to go regardless. I have heard many,many people recomend this route.

its just so damn expensive (unless you guys know of a good source).

OK, what don't you guys like about the Tac 1?

I need to know the good and the bad.

Ive heard that it goes through gas more than spyders...but is it worse than cockers?

That is really secondary anyway...I want to know about the TAC 1 combat feel...and how owners feel about that particular gun. I know most of you out there have used a cocker at some point. Sadly, I have yet to use a mag. I will try to get my hands on one soon. But I don't have any friends with mags. They've all gone to cockers or electro of the month.

I usually end up sitting back and trying to pick off my targets with accuracy and relatively few shots. I like the idea of using the trigger like a mouse button (squeeze the trigger till it clicks) as opposed to having to actually allow the trigger to swing back to its ,"at rest position"

Would you recomend the Tac 1 for this sort of game play?
Thanks

[TMAXXKING1]

here is the animation on for the valve and alot of other great info..
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40904

[TheTramp]

Does anybody know where I can see a moving diagram of the mag's interal operation?

As for accuracy, there is something to be said for internal movement and accuracy. Because the paintball is travelling slowly (relatively speaking when compared with other projectiles).
The more rattle the action causes ,the more the vibration and thus your accuracy is decreased.

Thus , there is something to be said for closed bolt operation.

The Mag has one significant moving part. The Cocker has countless. If you buy into the moving parts theory of Cocker accuracy that you'll have to say that after the first shot a cocker must be the most inaccurate gun out there as it has the most moving parts. It's the same as all the rest so the "theory" is bunk.




I like the idea of using the trigger like a mouse button (squeeze the trigger till it clicks) as opposed to having to actually allow the trigger to swing back to its ,"at rest position"


In that case you need an eectro as they are the guns that have "mouse click" triggers.

[Banshee23]

As for accuracy, there is something to be said for internal movement and accuracy. Because the paintball is travelling slowly (relatively speaking when compared with other projectiles).
The more rattle the action causes ,the more the vibration and thus your accuracy is decreased.

Thus , there is something to be said for closed bolt operation.

Accuracy ... yeah... ok...paint to barrel is critical, I know . The short of my question I think is which one is more consistent? Cocker with stock internals or Tac 1?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Compressed air, i suppose is the way to go regardless. I have heard many,many people recomend this route.

its just so damn expensive (unless you guys know of a good source).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, what don't you guys like about the Tac 1?

I need to know the good and the bad.

Ive heard that it goes through gas more than spyders...but is it worse than cockers?




Ok here we go:

#1 - The cocker is not going to be any more accurate than the Tac-1. As far as consistency the Tac-1 would probably be a little more consistant than the stock cocker.

#2 - Look in the sale forums for a HPA tank, you'll find 68/4.5k tanks for around $110-$125, 68/3k tanks for under $100. Brand new they're expensive wherever you go.

#3 - Only drawback to a Tac-1 over a RT Pro is that it weighs a little more due to the larger body. Also, the Level 10 on the X-valve will probably need tuning. But after it's setup it'll be virtually chop-proof, whereas with the cocker you'd have to buy an aftermarker bolt. As for efficency, you'll get somewhere between 1,000 to 1,200 shots off of a 68/45 tank. Depending on how the Spyder or Cocker is setup this will either be better or worse than those.

As a side note, you mentioned short stroking the trigger on the cocker earlier. With the reactive trigger on the X-valve it's very difficult to short stroke as it pushes the trigger back for you :)

[Swampthing777]

All right,

I'm getting a good idea.

I like Banshee's info thats the kinda stuff I was looking for.

Thanks.

As for the whole theory being ,"bunk". it is in fact sound. With the cocker, immediately after the trigger is pulled, the round leaves the chamber...as apposed to pulling the trigger and having a bolt released,slam into a valve and release the air.

Not saying that mags are inferior.

Just saying that at least theoretically , the cocker is "Accurate". The tramp was not all wrong, though.

Fewer parts to move = fewer things to go wrong. Thats good!

Allright, so

the Tac One = consistency and simplicity + durability this to me means good reliability in combat ,fewer jams in a bind and long term use.

Cocker=unique firing mechanism which can + accuracy however suffers from consistancy+bulk and more moving parts= possiblity for problems down road an poor shooting.

Thanks for your help guys.

Swampthing ;)

[TheTramp]

All right,

As for the whole theory being ,"bunk". it is in fact sound. With the cocker, immediately after the trigger is pulled, the round leaves the chamber...as apposed to pulling the trigger and having a bolt released,slam into a valve and release the air.

Not saying that mags are inferior.

Just saying that at least theoretically , the cocker is "Accurate". The tramp was not all wrong, though.

Fewer parts to move = fewer things to go wrong. Thats good!




"Not all wrong" LOL

What happens when "the round leaves the chamber" in a cocker? All sorts of stuff moves so the next shot (unless you wait a few seconds) is being effected by that movment. So....as I said the first shot may have this extra accuracy but nothing after that.

As proven in multi shot bench tests cockers aren't any less accurate than other guns even though they have more moving parts after the first shot. It seems to follow that moving parts don't play much of a roll.

[Swampthing777]

Like I said you were'nt completely off base. But as I said...it is a rare for me to lay down large strings of paint.thus for my style of play the accuracy would be "good".
But whatever...we could go round and round on this.

Simplicity is good, :shooting: I like that. nuf said.

As for mouse click...I suppose light would have been a better word. I dont like the cocker trigger.

I feel like I'm moving my hands to much to get an accurate shot.

I dont think that I would have that kind of issue with the mag.

:ninja:

[SlartyBartFast]

As for the whole theory being ,"bunk". it is in fact sound. With the cocker, immediately after the trigger is pulled, the round leaves the chamber...as apposed to pulling the trigger and having a bolt released,slam into a valve and release the air.


No, the theory is bunk and your description of the cocker (and Mag) operation is erroneous. Once you pull the trigger on a cocker, the hammer is the first thing to move.

The only difference between markers that COULD affect "accuracy" is reciprocating mass and recoil. And then, it really only affects continuous fire, not aim and single shot. Between a cocker and a mag, the cocker has a MUCH higher reciprocating mass.

Ball bounce/bobble has been discounted too often to be taken seriously. So you can discount the effect of bolt on ball while firing.

[osustevie]

I have done Autocockers(Orracle) and a Tac One. I still have a 68Mag w/ lvl 7 bolt. That said I have become a huge fan of Palmer guns. These things are so smooth to shoot and they shoot darts too. Glenn Palmer did autococking before it was a "cocker". The Palmer Blazer is a closed bolt design with all the pnuematics built internal to the gun. No hoses flopping around here. Stock outta the box I will take a Blazer over any autococker or mag. Its a mech gun so no batteries to worry about. Simple to clean and known for accauracy and reliablilty. They are comparable in price to a Tac One. They were DESIGNED to run on CO2. You can use HPA with them as well without a hitch(I do). Also I have a ton of research on Palmers stuff and I have never found a posting on any forum(here, PBN, MacB, PBreview) where a player was giving up Palmer guns and moving to something else. It just doesnt happen that I can find. With a Blazer there is no need to buy any upgrades including barrels. A lot of folks buy Palmer parts as upgrades. The barrel is amazing too. It is eliptically honed. (Shaped like a football) and made of solid brass. Glenn Palmer has been making paintball guns for more than 15 years. Yeah I sound like a fanboy but that is because I have tried other guns and I finally found what works for me. Check the other forums. Palmer fans are as nuts for their guns as the folks are here at AO. Here are a few links:
http://www.palmer-pursuit.com/catalog/blazer.htm
http://www.pbnation.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=242
http://www.pbreview.com/products/reviews/205/
My Blazer
http://homepage.mac.com/orionthehunter/.cv/orionthehunter/Public/BZ2438Left.JPG-link.JPG

[Duck Hunt]

I own a X valved ULE mag. My main Barrel is a PMI Omen barrel I got for free, and when my paint doesn't match that I used a BACK from my friends Evil Pipe kit.

As long as my paint matches, over a red chrono I ALWAYS get 299, 299, 298.

I have 2 friends with Eblades and they chrono anywhere from 250 to 312.

Theres NO hammer slamming into a valve on the Mag. I can easily shoot this gun without and noticeably kick to it.

Hands down Mags are more shot consistant.

Sean

[peewee]

Hey stop hangin that blazer out there, makes me jealous. :cry: Having owned many mags & cockers my vote goes to the tac one. Doesnt have those little autococker random burps in performance. Sold my 03 cocker to get my ULE & am much happier. ULE's are a little cheaper but give the same performance as a tac one. Tacs are hard eye candy....

[Beemer]

Here Ya go

Mag.Gif from here

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=158050&highlight=gifs

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=79425&stc=1

[punkncat]

MY opinion and experiances with each of the markers in question....
I haven't owned an actual Tac One, but have owned the X valve. So the workings are the same. I have also owned countless Classic Mags, and I have owned quite a few cockers.

First off "accuracy"(I use that term loosely) in a paintball comes from good round paint, through a decent barrel and consistant air source......hold up....notice I say nothing about paint to barrel match? Well here is my experiance with it. As long as the paint isn't too big for the bore, you have little problems with barrel breaks. I always just use an oversize bore and go with it, except with a cocker. And thats only to keep the balls from rolling out.
Paintballs are inaccurate just as a matter of course. They are relatively light, barely spherical balls of wax being propelled at around 280FPS. All manner of outside forces can alter its trajectory, not to mention its own seams and dimples or flatspots. So getting a good round paint from the start will affect so called accuracy much more than anything else.
Having a good consistant air source has as major an impact on accuracy as well. Whether you use CO2 or HPA its important to maintain a good even pressure for your marker to work with. HPA just happens to be easier to do this with. A good remote line, anti siphon, or job specific reg along with lowered operating pressure makes CO2 more consistant as well.

Ok, so I am rambling off subject a bit. Allow me to get back on track. In my experiance these are MY pros and cons about the markers in question. I am not trying to say this is the end all be all, bible of facts about them. Just MHO. With that said here goes...

Mag:
A really sturdy marker that is super easy to repair and troubleshoot. Very reliable, and has a great compact feel. Classics are prone to short stroke if you don't pull full strokes, much like a cocker. Classics will work on CO2 with the proper percautions, but work better with HPA. Super easy to personalize. I won't say upgrade, because functionally the ONLY upgrades are level 10 and you might say a trigger frame, but thats open to discussion. Really the "upgrade" to a mag is the ability to make it so incredibly light. The X valves are definately the fastest mech available. They are lighter than the classic by a significant amount. Drawbacks are that they are not able to run on CO2, they are quirky and tend not to be as reliable as the classic valve. Don't get me wrong. The classic was SO super reliable that ANYTHING fades in comparison. LX and ULT only add to this quirkyness. Once the valve and LX is tuned its good to go, but ever run into a recurring problem and it can be a nightmare. Many here won't agree, I am just stating my experiance.

Cocker:
Really sturdy with a meaty bulky feel. Totally magical in awe factor with all the moving parts. This in turn also causes many people to be sceptical about their ability to work on the marker. Honestly it is quite a bit more involved to work on, and has a specific order that things need to be dealt with in order to get it right.Once its right you just leave it be! One of the biggest drawbacks is the fact that you MUST pull a full stroke in order not to cause serious problems, like chops. Cockers have a great balance in general but are a bit heavy. The rear block moving actually gives the marker a real gun feel as it "kicks back". Cockers can run at extremely low pressures. This makes them ideal for use with CO2, although they work well on HPA as well. They can be tuned to be quite efficent. It goes without saying that its possibly the MOST upgradable marker on the market. Many items available to enhance its performance. And there are cockers available to fit any price range from beginner to pro. The worst thing of all is that lately cockers can't hold a resale valve in spite of their quality design.

I don't want to give the wrong impression. I love and own both a cocker and a mag. I enjoy each. Honestly though, if I had to choose between an X valved mag and a cocker, I would go with the cocker. Its simply more versatile. The mag is awesome. With a properly tuned LX and a good HPA source, you will simply not find a better mech marker. But out in the woods having to use CO2, or slapping on an Eblade and going to a tourney...the cocker has it all covered.

[Swampthing777]

I like your angle.

The versatility of the cocker is definitely a benefit.

The electronic grip does definitely aleviate concerns regarding trigger length.

I guess its really a matter of personal taste.

I really think simplicity in design is a major factor in performance.

I am stilll kind of up in the air. And it all really hinges on price. For me ...450 ish is a pretty steep price + the HPA of at least another 100 or so dollars is somewhat cost prohibitive.

Try justifying that expense to your wife or girlfriend. Especially when I told her that the cocker was ,"The last Gun I had to get".
:nono:

Anyway...

I suppose with the proper regulator the cocker could be made to give better all around consistency.

Maybe even compressed air.

I prefer CO2 though...for me it is just easier to find refill stations.

DOnt get me wrong...it is a very good gun...its just it is more ,"Work" to operate than the spyder style weapon.

I realize you can't have your cake and eat it too...but you can try.

Anyway...I think I'll wait for the mag to come down in price a bit...get some more feedback, and get a good reg for the cocker.

But please ...don't let this thread end here...I love debating the pros and cons of each side.

;)

THanks

[dj89]

WEll i sure that some people have already posted what i would type so i'm not going to do it but take a look at theses. I think you would be more happy with a Tac One if you get nirto.

[punkncat]

If your cocker is still stock let me offer a few suggestions to get it rocking and make you much happier.

First get a good 3 way. The Bomb is one of my favs. It has a really short stroke, which in turn relates to shorter trigger pull. It has small holes in the body of the 3 way that actually allow you to tune it perfectly first time. It take the guesswork and minute adjusting out of the picture.

Find a good hinge frame. I suggest the Dye, but an Eclipse is good as well. What makes them superior is the fact that they come with trigger stops. So when you get it timed perfectly, you can stop the trigger at just the right point and make the pull as short as possible. Slider triggers offer a great short pull as well, cause you are litterally only pulling the length of your 3 way.

Adjust your sear so thats its firm enough to require you to pull slightly hard. You may think that bad, but heres the good. Having to pull slightly hard kind of forces you to pull a full pull each time. You have to pull just hard enough that when you actually overcome the sear "weight" you also have pulled all the way to the stop. It will also give the trigger a crisp definate feel.

The stock reg on a cocker is actually pretty good for use with CO2 and HPA. The only real drawback is that it has no external adjustment. Using an anti siphon for CO2, or a remote setup will solve many inconsistancy issues. Of course HPA resolves them all.

Unless you eblade the cocker , the stock ram does all it nees to and quite well. I am not saying there aren't better rams available, but for a mech cocker it just doesn't really need it. Getting a good bolt isn't a bad idea. The AKA lightning bolt is about the best available for a cocker, and will reduce your operating pressure a bit.

There are many things you can do to a cocker to make it "better", but they are usually pretty good out of the box. Don't let the timing of it scare you. There are many good infosheets out there. I actually have Ravi's saved. It made me a Guru just by reading it. Really simple stuff once you take the time to stop and see how it works.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

After looking at those gifs of the automag and the autococker i just buy a tac one thanks with help with my decsion.

[Swampthing777]

the 04 cocker already has a decent hinge frame/trigger...with an adjustable trigger.

I already have an anti siphon tube

and I was thinking about another regulator and ram etc...

But I have to say...that...especially when I'm doing scenario games...the cocker is heavy and the parts snag on my ghillie and vines quite easily.

I just like the simplicity of the mag.

Having been in the sport for a while now...I've heard quite a few different ideas about paintball accuracy. When I first got in it was,"Get the longest barrel you can"..then it was, "Cockers are accurate b/c they are 'closed bolt'" then it was barrell to paint match etc...

After having many conversations,seeing many diagrams and haveing played many games...
I have come to a few conclusions.

WHen I first got in...all I ever read was stuff involving ,"How my Spyder beat an Angel" blah blah blah.
I thought I had it pretty good with a qualitative semi auto (Spyder TL)

But I now realize that although it wasn't bad it wasn't the best either.

I remember a game where I actually gave this one kid a handful of paint for the last game of the night. He was on the other side...but I was being nice.

from accross the field...he gogged me...and it pissed me off. He had a cocker and I had my spyder. His was quiet and mine wasnt. A the time..I thought that it was just the name of the gun .Autococker sounded sooo cool.

the back block moment was awesome to me.

I liked the mags too.

But for one reason or another...the cocker was more visible to me.

People (cocker owners) always told me,"Closed bolt is better". I listened.

Having played a few games now witht the marker...I have this to say.

I don't care about the action any more.

I care about ease of use,(I.e. Simplicity) if I'm in the middle of a fire fight and I chop...I wand to be able to make one quick action,pull out my squeegie and swab out the inside, slap it back together and be ready to rock.

I hate...HATE having to carefully and laboriously unscrew the barrel...I have taken to poppoing out the entire bolt and shoving it in from that end through the gun out to the barrel.

I want to be able to break it down and put it back together in minutes.
And I don't want a huge hunk of metal draggin me down all day.

Also I want consistency.consistency .consistency.

So far my cocker was better than that first spyder...and yeah I will go compressed air.

But tiny and light?

Where else can it be found within reasonable price ranges?

And that gentlemen is why I think I'm going mag.

Cockers are great...I just don't think they are for me...
at least not in stock form...and thats all I can afford right now.

[SlartyBartFast]

I hate...HATE having to carefully and laboriously unscrew the barrel...I have taken to popping out the entire bolt and shoving it in from that end through the gun out to the barrel.

Well, that's not going to change if you get a TAC-One. :p And you can't easily pull the bolt out or access the breech to squeegee from that end. :p

But, if you setup the Lvl10 right, you shouldn't get any breaks...

[Swampthing777]

You are right my friend...

However, I was just on AGD's website and found that they are selling their RT ULE Custom for $340

Their specs sheet shows that it is internally almost identical to the TAC ONE and they offer the option of having twist lock barrels.

Joy! :cheers:

THis gentlemen might verywell be the answer for me.

I can get the RT ULE custom... that gives me the valves I need plus I will be able to get a decent compressed air system all for roughly what it would have cos me to get the tac one.

This may be the perfect answer...

As you can see ive been bitten by the mag bug.

;)

[dj89]

But for 340 or what ever it is you do not ge an i frame.

[SlartyBartFast]

As you can see ive been bitten by the mag bug.

;)

That's not a bad thing is it?

I'm tormented between getting the RT-ULE with two bodies (center and warp) or just get the HL-PF stainless with a power feed, as I would like to try a warp and/or a Q.

Of course I find out about the buy a warp body/get a free warp AFTER it's over.... :mad:

Also, I'm really unsure about whether to get an intelliframe or not. As I've never used a double trigger and am not a fan of spray-and-pray playing I'm not sure I need it. But, I'm virtually convinced I'll get it anyways as if I'm getting the Warp instead of a Q it seems required.

And I've seen the single trigger around for REALLY cheap.

[Dryden]

If you just want to get your feet wet (and still use the twist locks) ... see the "Pro Classic" http://www.whitewolfairsmithing.com/.

It's only $219, offers you the most basic setup, and is more CO2 friendly with the Classic Valve. Add in the cost of a Level 10 anti-chop bolt (strongly recommended) and you've got the complete system still hovering right around $300, if you choose to go that route. Now, you can essentially buy the exact same thing used, but with this package you've got the security of knowing that the marker hasn't been abused or neglected.

If you want simplicity, the Mag is the answer. As long as you keep the marker cleaned and properly oiled, it will last you years without requiring service.

[dj89]

Nope, you do not need an i frame for a warp unless you are going to hovk your warp up to it.

Get the rt you will be much happyer.