Thoughts on ION, SP, Hype.. other makers.. [Archive]

MadPSIence

03-22-2005, 05:16 AM

I'm throwing this out there for all of the new guys talking about the ION and wondering about getting it; and to the guys who just are suckers for Smart Parts and their marketing. I want to clear up a few points.

First off there's this thing going around that the ION is a professional grade marker at a entry price. Basically people are saying you get something for 300 bucks that gives you about 800+ worth of performance. I beg to differ. But before you get mad I am not saying the ION is terrible, just over-hyped simply because Smart Parts has the power to do so

A stock ION has some good qualities.. it is pretty quick.. especially for 300 dollars but there's some stuff not so good. Not so great grip, iffy reg, crap trigger and a really not so great feedneck. Otherwise it's good though... those problems don't drag it down and are all addressable.

So hey, 300 bucks and you get an electro with ACE ready to shoot. Nobody else comes close to offering that right?

WRONG

You've fallen for the advertising game. There's this company called PMI making this nice gun called the Pirahna. Now the EVO which is their top gun is 20 bucks or more, cheaper than an ion and comes with everything the ION does except here's the difference. The reg is great, feedneck fits good, grip isn't too bad.. and it's not made of friggin composite.

In my educated opinion, Smart Parts put the cheap composite replaceable *extreme* body on the ION for one reason. To market to completely oblivious 12-15 year olds that get sold on crap like fancy colorful bodies made of crappy material that looks "extreme". It's the same reason those grips with nekkid chicks are made. It's marketed to the sprouting hormone driven kids who couldn't recognize a good grip from a hustler page.

With all the advertising... companies like PMI get kinda boned and the end result is what you see around you. Most of the people won't know a thing about a PMI EVO. They'll just figure since they haven't heard of it.. and it's only 260 bucks that it automatically sucks because apparently the ION is the only gun to give hi performance and a super good price.

PMI isn't the only company. People need to actually start researching and not just sticking to the latest colorful ad.

And if you're going to quote any part of this post be sure to quote a strong point I'm trying to maintain. I don't think the ION sucks, I think it's over-rated, inflated, advertised falsely and that most kids don't have the ability to recognize that

Muzikman

03-22-2005, 06:32 AM

Think about it for one second. How much does a company pay for milling? How much does the milling on your average timmy cost? If they didn't mill any fancy stuff in the body, how much cheaper could they produce the gun? This is where the plastic body for the ION comes in. It serves no function than to give the gun a decent look without spending at minimum $100 in fancy milling that will need to be chanced every year (or even 6 months) to keep up with the players demand for something different. Now, they just go out and have a new body molded. It's alot quicker for complex designs and is a lot cheaper because of it. You are not tying up hours on a mill that costs a pretty penny per hour to operate. Also, this gives the user the ability to customize their gun to what ever they want. Don't be shocked that by the time the major events roll around this summer that you start seeing aftermarket bodies for the ION. Heck, maybe even some of them made out of aluminum.

Lohman446

03-22-2005, 07:12 AM

Well I agree with you that the hype is getting out of control, because it was the other thread that I had to bring up the Evo in when someone else said, seemingly unchallenged "no other marker comes with eyes for $300". It was bound to happen eventually. Now in my opinion, when comparing the Ion to the Evo - the reg on the Ion, which really concerned me, is better than I thought it would be and pretty dang consistent. I don't know about longevity but the reg on the Evo was nothing impressive. I like the feel of the Ion better than the Evos I have shot (and I used quite a few at the field last year, just toying with them). The feedneck on the Ion is pretty nice, o-ring locking, I don't recall what the Evo had. Of course I instantly replaced the feedneck on my Ion to.

SP has put the Ion out there - a good release and a bit of steering and they have watched the hype just soar on it. A ramping marker, with break beam eyes, and the capability to fire at the PSP limit of 15BPS (granted most markers can - but this one gets there easy thanks to ramping) for $300 is, in todays marker world, a pretty good buy. Right now though they are simply letting the Ion speak for itself. Look at some of the other threads "$300 for the Ion and $300 in upgrades and you have an awesome gun" or some such. I didn't even know there were $300 in upgrades available for it, nor do I know what upgrades they were eluding to. But it is out there, and it goes unchallenged.

SP knows hype, but what they are getting here is player hype, nothing from them. It grows with each day the Ion is out, and they just sit back and sell more.

peewee

03-22-2005, 07:59 AM

Personally I am watching to see how well the ion holds up down the road. Give it six months to a year to see if its even worth the $285. The EVO is a proven marker in my book for $250. Personally I dont think PMI has done enough in the marketing of it.

03-22-2005, 08:00 AM

A stock ION has some good qualities.. it is pretty quick.. especially for 300 dollars but there's some stuff not so good.Otherwise it's good though... those problems don't drag it down and are all addressable.

So hey, 300 bucks and you get an electro with ACE ready to shoot. Nobody else comes close to offering that right?

WRONG

You've fallen for the advertising game. There's this company called PMI making this nice gun called the Pirahna.

now who ia falling for what hype???????????

MadPSIence

03-22-2005, 08:06 AM

not I... I'm ordering a custom mag today.

I'll die before you catch me shooting any ramping gun.. heck, the only electro gun I'd ever use is a Devil.

RRfireblade

03-22-2005, 08:07 AM

And if you're going to quote any part of this post be sure to quote a strong point I'm trying to maintain. I don't think the ION sucks, I think it's over-rated, inflated, advertised falsely and that most kids don't have the ability to recognize that

I think you've got a little chip on your shoulder there for some reason....or you just bought an EVO and got ribbed about it on your last day out. Not sure which. ;)

I don't see where people are thinking the ION is a $800 super gun for $300($285 actually).Most people,as far as I can tell and I'm one of them,see the ION as a true Electro-pnuematic entry level marker w/ many of the features of a higher end gun at a very good entry level pice.

It seems to be built pretty decent and besides the claims of the many 'haters' is NOT a plastic gun but all aluminum in fact besides the trigger and the (for cosmetics only) outer shell,which seems to also be a good idea as it's attractive and far more durable than anno.Great place to USE plastic IMO. It also has the most currently desired software on it stock,a decent reg,break beam eyes that work quite nicely,simple locking feedneck and smooth,quiet,low recoil,efficient operation.I happen to think it performs quite nicely and would have no problem taking one on the field.At UNDER $300,it's a bargin if you ask me,more stock features in a smaller lighter package than the BKO/B2K which until now were arguably the low dollar performance kings for that or more money.

So....

And since you brought it up....

The EVO ,while being a fine entry level marker as well, is nothing more than a sear tripping blowback like every other spyder/clone out there.Besides the addition of the eyes,it's far from anything new.IMO, it 'should' retail in the $150-$200 range and be a good deal at that price.I simply don't think 'eyes' on it's own puts it in the same league as what most would consider 'upper end'. And I won't comment on the funky trigger,large blocky grip frame and un-inspired milling (or complete lack there of) as that is purly a preference issue.But it does have old,typical,outdated software and all the other performance concerns of a blowback (recoil,blowback etc).

To sum up,

I don't think the ION is over hyped any more than any other new product and I don't think people are expecting to get DM5 performance for under #300. I DO think the ION is a new fresh marker with all the popular features currently demanded by players,functioning in a similar manner as many higher end markers and giving the Bushy,Impulse,Mag and Cocker buyer an attractive lower cost alternative for a 'Tourny' (what ever that means)grade marker and will perform in the same ballpark as marker costing 2-3 times it's price.

whew......

:)

Lohman446

03-22-2005, 08:18 AM

I don't see where people are thinking the ION is a $800 super gun for $300($285 actually).Most people,as far as I can tell and I'm one of them,see the ION as a true Electro-pnuematic entry level marker w/ many of the features of a higher end gun at a very good entry level pice.

I DO think the ION is a new fresh marker with all the popular features currently demanded by players,functioning in a similar manner as many higher end markers and giving the Bushy,Impulse,Mag and Cocker buyer an attractive lower cost alternative for a 'Tourny' (what ever that means)grade marker and will perform in the same ballpark as marker costing 2-3 times it's price.

I like the Ion, for many of the reasons you mentioned - but I am having a hard time reconciling those two statements.

Edit: :D this is all in good nature right :D

RRfireblade

03-22-2005, 08:20 AM

Now you know why SP has sold 50 thousand IONs already. :D

It is a compounding situation,I think of it like this...

ION = riced out Honda but coming that way stock. (No offence to the Honda 'ricers ;))

as they compare to say, Z06 Vette or a Porsche or whatever.

Steelrat

03-22-2005, 08:23 AM

I heard that if you touch the ION to a block of lead it will transmute it to gold. I also heard that the ION can cure leppers.

peewee

03-22-2005, 09:18 AM

MadPSIence Now your talking!!!! :headbang: I for a second thought about selling my mag then started :rofl: . No way cant do it. Its shoots way to nice & will last my life time.

Lohman446

03-22-2005, 09:26 AM

The Ion, and why I bought one

1) Break beam eyes
2) Spool valve
3) Rebound mode

The body really I didn't care about. Well I agree that there is no marker made at $300 that offers these features eyes were not the only reason I bought it. I would not have bought it without eyes though. If eyes had been the only consideration an Evo might have won out

Baby Huey

03-22-2005, 09:28 AM

Just wait until may '05 for the ION targeting system (similiar to the system used in Caddyshack 2). Pretty Sweet.

Maus

03-22-2005, 10:09 AM

Smart Parts put the cheap composite replaceable *extreme* body on the ION for one reason. To market to completely oblivious 12-15 year olds that get sold on crap like fancy colorful bodies made of crappy material that looks "extreme".

It only makes sense a non-structural part be made out of plastic.

The Ions I saw at open play this weekend were working great. This is the low cost future gun people have been wanting.

Let's see:

[x]speed
[x]size
[x]weight
[x]cost
[x]Oh, wait. It's Smart Parts. We have to hate it!

How about a pages-long rant about the lunacy of spending hundreds of dollars on a mechanical Mag or Autococker? My mech 'cocker and Sandridge were already old, now they're relics.

Lohman446

03-22-2005, 10:14 AM

In my educated opinion, Smart Parts put the cheap composite replaceable *extreme* body on the ION for one reason. To market to completely oblivious 12-15 year olds that get sold on crap like fancy colorful bodies made of crappy material that looks "extreme". It's the same reason those grips with nekkid chicks are made. It's marketed to the sprouting hormone driven kids who couldn't recognize a good grip from a hustler page.

Thats not an educated opinion - its a rant. Lets look at reasons for the plastic body:
1) Cost and time to annodize is taken care of
2) Interchangeable, you can easily customize them
3) More durable than annodizing, and if you do break it easily replaced

The plastic body was not a bad idea - its one of those knee jerk anti-SP reactions. I am not a completely oblvious hormone driven 12-15 year old. I can recognize a decent marker from a bad one. I can recongize the shortcomings of the Evo, and the Ion. There are some there no doubt. Your rant has no basis in anything but anti-SP anger, annoyance that company can "control" the marketplace like SP does.

03-22-2005, 10:26 AM

not I... I'm ordering a custom mag today.

I'll die before you catch me shooting any ramping gun.. heck, the only electro gun I'd ever use is a Devil.

no hype there either, ;)

Lohman446

03-22-2005, 10:29 AM

I'll die before you catch me shooting any ramping gun.. heck, the only electro gun I'd ever use is a Devil.

How does that make sense? You realize the Devil has ramping features right? If you mean I won't use ramping, if its turned off, whats the difference?

The logic in this thread is astounding, while RRFireblade has proven his intelligence repeatedly and what I found was just nitpicking and a misspeak (I assume) when I understand what he was trying to say some of the statements you make are a bit less than educated and more filled with hype (pro whatever anti-SP) than most anything SP has come out with lately.

abunkerer

03-22-2005, 11:43 AM

PMI has plenty of marketing, more than smart parts. You can go into walmart and buy a pmi gun. The ion is an all around better (stock electro) gun than anything close to it's price range, the new bko is expected to give it a little competition....your marketing vs. quality idea becomed more valid in that arena.

teufelhunden

03-22-2005, 11:50 AM

The Evo has been out for a year and sold like.. 13 copies. It's a good old STBB with eyes.. not even the first. Nothing special. And anything else I would've said, well, had already been drilled into you more than once or twice in here.

JaredMeier

03-22-2005, 01:17 PM

i think SP has the right idea about the ion - features and function. anyone that would say that the Ion does not "offer" the features and function that so many players are wanting, they would just be kidding themselves. the Ion, or any other "high function". speedy electro (or any semi) are not what I want, but I can see how it would appeal to other players.
But I cannot personally attest to the quality of an Ion, because I dont have one. I just know that it has something that appeals to alot of players. I will admit that there is alot of hype surrounding the ion, but it is eventually the player who decides what he wants to spend his money on, and what features and funtion they want. so many players, with certain views, will look at an Ion and say they got their moneys worth...whether or not it we think it "truly" does offer on its "hyped" premise. in that right, SP has succeeded. and If I were a new player, first getting into the sport, I might be tempted to by an Ion, too. actually, I probably would buy one. it is the same price I bought my spyder shutter for back in the day.

JimmyBeam

03-22-2005, 01:25 PM

And if you're going to quote any part of this post be sure to quote a strong point I'm trying to maintain. I don't think the ION sucks, I think it's over-rated, inflated, advertised falsely and that most kids don't have the ability to recognize that

let me ask you this.....

have you played with an Ion yet? Play with one for a weekend and you'll see where the hype is coming from.

but, im tired of defending the Ion, its a great gun.....simple as that. Hate it.....i could care less

Jackel411

03-22-2005, 01:29 PM

Okay time for an airtechs quick and dirty reply....

The pirhana EVO , is a sear clicker not a full on electro , having shot one its doesnt feel like an electro its feels like a fast spyder. IE Lots of recoil , nots of noice , cludgy feel and the typical bolt stick that occurs when the gun chops a ball... Oh yeah.. right chops a ball genrally people dont run the eyes on this gun as its a circle jerk to get the board to work right with the eyes... Add in the fact it needs a 9.6 volt battery to work at its peak , which most newbies forget to charge.

Now Im still not a big fan of the Ion as I have some old hatred for SP BUUUUUUUUT

Having owned one for a short time , its more or less a sloppy ugly shocker... Its not plastic or composit , Ive knifed the frame and took off the POWDER COAT to find.. GAH!!! ALUMINUM SIMILAR TO A 98's.

Personally... Fully electronic with a fast board and eyes , Vs. JABB with electr frame and Eyes... hands down Ion.

LONEWOLFOO1

03-22-2005, 01:50 PM

I can't see how a company could make a bad gun with the power of the internet. if this gun was bad we will defintly here about it. before anybody start talking about a product give it 6 months and see what happens. thats like me saying that you suck and can't play paintball even though i never even seen you play let the company prove their worth we will here about it sooner or later that if it is crap or good sh@#t. i could go around and say agd charges to much for guns that are not even competive with guns at the same price range. rtule,tac,emag.

Jackel411

03-22-2005, 01:55 PM

And remember kiddies... Junk guns dont get back ordered to the sum of 10000 units, And yet the Evo's go on sale almost monthly because PMI cant move them out to save them selfs

Lohman446

03-22-2005, 02:06 PM

Its a matter of name.. lets say that PMI and SP produced markers that functioned 100% identically (I realize the Evo does not) and the price was $250 for the PMI marker and $300 for the SP

PMI is not a $250 marker company - there marketing (Wal-Mart) etc is towards the cheaper end of the sport. So a $250 PMI marker is too pricey.

SP a $300 SP marker is a cheap SP marker.

Why do you think that PMI uses the Evil name and not the PMI name for there top end stuff.

68magOwner

03-22-2005, 02:22 PM

my lil bro shoots a ion, teammates and friends do/have owned shockers, i would say that the ion is on par performance wise with the shocker, well beyond a eyed spyder clone in performance

Chris at Tech

03-22-2005, 02:45 PM

I posted in the ICD forum of PBN on this exact irony of the Ion and it was closed quickly, for fear of a flame war.

It's amazing...Everyone and their brother is raving about the ION, that it has features and performance of a $1000 gun for only $300...blah blah blah...

When myself and others said the same thing about the Bushmaster 2000 and the BKO when they came out, those guns were dismissed as crap. I find it funny that the exact same people that called the Bushy crap are now firmly on the Ion bandwagon.

Andrew Cunje

03-22-2005, 04:03 PM

Hey all her to join the fun...

i own a mech mag...spent about 700 building it from scratch...woudl ahve jsut bought a prebuilt if i knew they existed but...i still love my gun, its light, effiecient and hasnt given me a problem since i bumped it to 1000 psi input....

my little bro owned a spyder rodeo...we just put an electro board on it and a lowrise feed neck, but check this we just sold it on ebay, lost about... 80 bucks but got 200 for it...now i just picked up an ion, i tried one out that rob hoover had tuned and that thign just amazed me...

its super light, attractive lookign, super cheap, fast, and not to mention it only requires 175input to run...where as im runnign 1k on my mag...i mean dont get me wrong i stand by my mag and want to get a devil bolt on but for my bro its amazing...

this gun truley amazed me...its easy to shoot and if u get it tuned right you can do 17 bps with your pinky in rmapign mode...and that, that is sick...

that is all i have to say about that. :dance:

VAballer

03-22-2005, 04:04 PM

Your post is purely subjective. You bring nothing new to the table. Your confusing cheap with inexpensive. I've shot this great little gun and I was impressed. It was light, fast and under $300, that's hard to beat. That's why I'm getting one. :D

Lohman446

03-22-2005, 04:05 PM

i own a mech mag...spent about 700 building it from scratch...woudl ahve jsut bought a prebuilt if i knew they existed but...i still love my gun, its light, effiecient and hasnt given me a problem since i bumped it to 1000 psi input....

Don't take this as a shot, I like mags, I have a Devil ordered.. but efficient compared to what?

Andrew Cunje

03-22-2005, 04:10 PM

i have never had a problem with my gun, with teh right input pressure its happier than ever, i rock on people with my mech mag, i can walk the trigger with my input pressure level, its jsut all round amazing, mags never break....and with mine being mech, i can fall in a rivier/stream, i can dunk it in water to clean it, its just indestructable

Vendetta

03-22-2005, 04:12 PM

I just this second opened up my new ION. It looks very nicely put together. I'm not sure how good the aluminum is, but I'm not planning on using it as a nut cracker ;) 'll try it out tonight :shooting:

I do have one question though. The manual says that you can use a CO2 tank with anti-siphon, or a N2 tank that does not exceed 200psi inlet pressure. Doesn't a CO2 tank have an inlet pressure of about 800psi? Am I missing something? :tard: Can I use my HP pre-set screw in?

Lohman446

03-22-2005, 04:13 PM

I used a HP preset (about 850PSI) - I think they mean from the reg - dont put that gauge over 200PSI going into the gun, not into the reg

Vendetta

03-22-2005, 04:16 PM

Ok, thanks.

I have to say that I'm not a SP fan, but you have to hand it to them that they have the best industrial/graphic designers in the buisness.

tony3

03-22-2005, 04:20 PM

The evo and the Ion don't compare AT ALL. The EVO is nothing but an electro blowblack with eyes. The ion is a spool valve breakbeam eyed gun. Have you ever seen the kick on a spyder or piranha? It is insane. Imagine that much kick at 13-15 bps? Yeah, blowback is a good design for 100 dollar guns, not 300 dollar guns.

03-22-2005, 04:24 PM

Ion owner

03-22-2005, 04:56 PM

MadPSIence

03-22-2005, 05:06 PM

no hype there either, ;)

If you think Mags have hype you ought to get off this forum. Before I came here I thought mags were old and <B>*POOF*</B>. Then I did some research and asking around.

People buying the ION aren't gonna do that, they will see flashy extreme colors, see the word EYE and immediately go nuts.

Yes or No - If the ION was built entirely of parts that lasted 1 month... do you think their sales in the first release would have been any lower?

<B>*Warning - No Cussing*</B>

danheneise

03-22-2005, 05:11 PM

JimmyBeam

03-22-2005, 05:22 PM

VAballer

03-22-2005, 05:28 PM

danheneise

03-22-2005, 06:11 PM

bad business? how is making more money for your company bad business, sure it sucked for everyone else, but that doesnt change the fact that they are still a corporation, and making money is top priority.

aparently you didn't notice the " " marks, which means I'm quoting other people. I have heard that said many times on these forums and others. Also, my rant wasen't necessarily about SP, it was a rant toward the people that buy the supplies, and the fact that they fall so easily to advertising/hype, so much to where they seem to forget that just a few months before they hated the company they just bought something from.

Toxic Dave

03-22-2005, 06:21 PM

My Thoughts on the Ion,

I am in a position where I can or have shot/ owned pretty much any gun on the market, save for a couple super rare things. I got an Ion to review for Paintball Sports Magazine yesterday and promptly went and played with it at the local indoor. The build/ design is very good, not to mention that it shot as straight if not straighter than my shocker. ROF is hampered by the trigger a bit, but with a little tinkering I think I can make it shoot ropes. I'm fairly sceptical of Max Flow regs but the new Ion style one seems pretty good.

I belive SP is brilliant in releasing this gun at this price point, and the wholesale price makes it very hard for a store not to want to sell as many as they can get thier hands on. The EVO isn't in the same ball park as the Ion performance-wise or in any other catagory either, not even close.

I am seriously thinking about selling my DM4 and buying an Ion and pocketing the rest of the cash.

Dave.

P.S. Vendetta, Dye's Industrial/ Graphic Design team destroys SP's, Benini and the crew put out stuff stuff that everybody else wishes they can think up, 5 years from now.

MadPSIence

03-22-2005, 06:40 PM

was just browsing anf I have to mention something I didn't even realize before. Ion's are UGLY. They should really re-model or just drop the interchangable bodies and do something about the rail.

SP should have modeled it like a nerve/shocker

oh and as far as bad business practice.. here's a quote from Smart Parts on the Nerve.

Sell off all the other junk you've purchased over the years to make your under performing marker a winner and make space in your gear bag for the Nerve

Lohman446

03-22-2005, 06:46 PM

If you think Mags have hype you ought to get off this forum. Before I came here I thought mags were old and ****ty. Then I did some research and asking around.

People buying the ION aren't gonna do that, they will see flashy extreme colors, see the word EYE and immediately go nuts.

Yes or No - If the ION was built entirely of parts that lasted 1 month... do you think their sales in the first release would have been any lower?

I've been on this forum long enough that I consider it my paintball home on the net.. so I have a skewed viewpoint. Here... and this quote is great, mags are hyped beyond what you could imagine. If you beleived what a good share of people on this forum say often you would think five mags on the field, just laying there would win tournaments.. screw needing the idiotic paintball players behind them.

I bought the Ion because I was curious - I ordered twenty more after dismantling the first one and looking it over, after shooting it, after using it. Your right, I saw the flashy colors and just went nuts.

You underestimate the people buying these. Sure some are buying them for flash but I have not seen a bad review from anyone I actually beleive has owned one.

ktMag

03-22-2005, 07:13 PM

From what I read about the Ion so far, I'm considering picking one up. Only thing stopping me from buying it is the long awaited PTP PnueMag Frame. I plan to slap that Pnue-Goodness onto my MicroMag and rekindle the bond I had with it.

However, IF the upgrade for a PTP's PnueMag Frame cost over $200... then I'm seriously going to think about buying an Ion instead.

Don't get me wrong.... I love my Mech Mag. But, it's feels like 5 lbs when it's fully setup (w/o paint) and it's a total GAS HOG. Not to mention the stock benchmark single trigger frame with a trigger pull heavy enough to make Superman cringe. After playing with my Mag for a day, it makes everything the Ion has to offer that much more attractive. Not to mention the Ion's cost.

There is a good chance that I'm going to be at Jungle Island on April 2 (Lake Elsinore, CA). If anyone has an Ion I can run 500 rounds at the firing range, PLEASE EMAIL ME. I'll supply the paint and air for the test. I wanna see for myself what this thing can do.

03-22-2005, 07:21 PM

oh and as far as bad business practice.. here's a quote from Smart Parts on the Nerve.

Sell off all the other junk you've purchased over the years to make your under performing marker a winner and make space in your gear bag for the Nerve

This comment makes no sense. Can you really, with complete honesty, tell me that one gun is truly better than any other?

Lohman446

03-22-2005, 07:25 PM

This comment makes no sense. Can you really, with complete honesty, tell me that one gun is truly better than any other?

I don't know, this thread is about why the Ion sucks it seems.

Ok, its about hype, about why the mag is such a smarter buy than teh Ion and why do the idiot paintball players spend there money on anything else.

At least to some people :cheers:

MadPSIence

03-22-2005, 07:47 PM

A nerve is better than a Talon

Glickman

03-22-2005, 08:29 PM

It only makes sense a non-structural part be made out of plastic.

The Ions I saw at open play this weekend were working great. This is the low cost future gun people have been wanting.

Let's see:

[x]speed
[x]size
[x]weight
[x]cost
[x]Oh, wait. It's Smart Parts. We have to hate it!

How about a pages-long rant about the lunacy of spending hundreds of dollars on a mechanical Mag or Autococker? My mech 'cocker and Sandridge were already old, now they're relics.

even at 14 posts, i like ya already :D :clap:

very well put

JimmyBeam

03-22-2005, 08:30 PM

aparently you didn't notice the " " marks, which means I'm quoting other people. I have heard that said many times on these forums and others. Also, my rant wasen't necessarily about SP, it was a rant toward the people that buy the supplies, and the fact that they fall so easily to advertising/hype, so much to where they seem to forget that just a few months before they hated the company they just bought something from.
my bad

jewie27

03-23-2005, 05:14 AM

It's not hype.....

I tested out my co-worker's new Ion on Saturday. He paid $290 for it.

I adjusted the trigger for him and it absolutely rips. It's pretty consistent on the velocity; +/- 3fps.

The trigger is NOT crap and I know this for a fact. It's not like a $300 trigger but it works well.

Easy to setup. Out of the box, it just needs a velocity adjustment.

The marker only uses Shocker lube or Dow Corning 55 grease.

Grease only, no oil.

Best thing of all, it has eyes for a great price. Lots of modes built in too.

1.)fast
2.)adjustable trigger
3.)many modes
4.) great price

LONEWOLFOO1

03-23-2005, 06:35 AM

Has anybody thought as this gun being a cheap back up for your main gun 300 is not bad as a back up right now i have a tac one and a 2000 bm2k i was think about putting eyes on my bm2k and make it a tourney level gun but this sp product may make this gun sit in the case.

i would wait six months though to buy another gun.

deathstalker

03-23-2005, 07:44 AM

I think one thing you've forgotten to mention is how hypocritical people have gotten. About 1/2 to a year ago people were bashing SP about the lawsuits , their "bad business" ideals and so on.... but now, they put out a new marker and everyone seems to magically love SP again. Personally I think this is pretty annoying at how smaller companies like AGD, PMI, and others try so hard to become great, and all SP has to do to bring people back to them is put out a new low end gun. :rolleyes: 'course then i just remember at how this sport is fairly dominated by high schoolers that don't think about how they sound.
First, SP bashing is as popular now with the ION as it was when the lawsuits began. What you think is people magically falling in love with SP I see as some of the more open-minded and intelligent people speaking their mind.

Second, SP has raised the bar for other companies. AGD is hardly bothering to compete at all, let alone with companies targeting tournament players and new players. You think companies should just sit back and rest on their laurels, saying, "Come buy our stuff because we made it!"? That certainly creates competition, doesn't it? :rolleyes: Companies like AGD and PMI (and many others) haven't changed their products enough to meet the demands of the growing and changing industry. I love AGD's products and my primary marker is an awesome display of what they can do. However, the falling prices of competitor's products are allowing me to try more and more products, giving me the best way of comparing the pros and cons of different markers.

I recently picked up a B2K4 PDS and fell in love with it. I've seen blemished models going for under $300, too, and considered picking up a second. When I first received it, I couldn't stand the microswith and trigger spring, complaining how magnets, HES, and optical sensors have spoiled me. Once I aired it up, it was like day and night. I can rip on it so easily that I have a sneaky suspicion I'm outshooting my E-Mag. I would never have discovered the joy that is a Bushy had they not been so cheap. Even the soon-to-be-released B2K5 is starting off at $460.

While I might not have ever considered spending $400+ for an Impulse or $600+ for a Shocker, I would readily spend under $275 for an ION. Based on what I've been seeing this round of pre-orders, competition amongst the dealers will be intense and it won't be long before they're dirt cheap. SP has forced the other manufacturers to compete if they want to survive. I look forward to the next generation of markers designed to compete directly with the ION.

Finally, SP makes sure people know about their products. What most people call "hype" I simply call "advertising". Can you describe the last Pimp ad you saw? How many print ads did you see for the X-Mag? I know for a fact that many people really do base their buying decisions on an advertisement, only because it allows them to see a product. The actual content is irrelevant, because people pay more attention the pictures than the words. Dear god, how many people won't bother to read my post because they look at it and say, "Words, uhh, words..."? There are still quite a few households without internet access, so many people don't have the interaction with other players those of us on the web do.

The other thing about advertising and paintball is the current average age of players, average age of people playing for the first time, and, as a direct result of the first two things mentioned, the people who are spending money on new gear. It's not just the players themselves, it's also their parents. This is certainly no rant against "those spoiled brats", as I usually stay out of those threads as well, but the fact of the matter is the industry has changed a lot since it's birth over 20 years ago. Consider this: Not only are children more impressionable than adults, they are also more prone to exaggerate and distort information they repeat.
Children are less patient than adults and aren't willing to spend the time researching their purchases and therefore do not make educated consumers.
Peer pressure has been, is, and will continue to be a powerful force exerted on children. "Keeping up with the Joneses" does not apply simply to adults.
Many parents leaf through magazines and read ads when making buying decisions for their children. This is what they consider researching and good parenting. We spend so much time complaining that parents don't interact with their children enough, yet we don't spend any time teaching parents how to successfully do it.
The use of electronics in markers and hoppers have made comparing them much more difficult, even at the level of your budget-priced sear-tripper.

Companies like Kingman and Tippman have long withstood the criticism leveled at "newbie" guns, but they've managed to succeed. Why? The biggest reason is the value they offer consumers. For under $200, one can purchase a kit that simply requires them to gas up and load paintballs before they hit the field. There are plenty of upgrades available, both OEM and aftermarket, and the amount of available support is incredible. The second reason they've been so successful is they got out the word about their products. Considering how many sub-$150 markers are on the market, one has to take the extra step to lead the way.

I started typing this last night and decided to wait until this morning to post it. I have learned to keep my mouth shut on topics like this, preferring to let the closed-minded and ignorant embarass themselves, but every once in a while a thread raises my ire and forces me to react. The release of the ION is going to change the industry again and only for the better. Consumers will have more choices and cheaper prices, other companies can make aftermarket parts for it, and SP's competitor's will be forced to step up to the plate and offer something new.

Paintballers have been complaining about things within the sport and industry for decades (pump vs. semi, woods vs. concept, rec vs. tourney, gun X vs. gun Y, manufacturer A vs. manufacturer B, etc.). All this has shown me is we are our own worst enemy. If we let the game itself split us apart, how could we ever expect to stand united against outside interference? If people could only look at the big picture rather than just a small piece of the puzzle, maybe more people could realize the benefits big companies bring to the game. Smart Parts isn't the cause of the problem, YOU are.

LONEWOLFOO1

03-23-2005, 09:11 AM

I took a stroll over to the smart parts website i saw this now this is funny considering this thread.

qoute from smart parts website

"Seems like everyone has an opinion about things they know nothing about. Hey, that’s what makes chat rooms so much fun to hang out in...
But before you go wading through the muck, we would like to give you some ammunition for your next online battle.

Check out the video—and see for yourself.

The Ion is real: Real fast. Real affordable. Real reliable."

http://www.smartparts.com/PR/IonVideo.aspx

They take WALK THE TALK to a whole new level.

VFX_Fenix

03-23-2005, 12:16 PM

Dear god, how many people won't bother to read my post because they look at it and say, "Words, uhh, words..."?

I have to wonder the same thing occationally.... Good post :cheers:

Lee

03-23-2005, 12:36 PM

Not only are children more impressionable than adults, they are also more prone to exaggerate and distort information they repeat.
Children are less patient than adults and aren't willing to spend the time researching their purchases and therefore do not make educated consumers.
Peer pressure has been, is, and will continue to be a powerful force exerted on children. "Keeping up with the Joneses" does not apply simply to adults.
Many parents leaf through magazines and read ads when making buying decisions for their children. This is what they consider researching and good parenting. We spend so much time complaining that parents don't interact with their children enough, yet we don't spend any time teaching parents how to successfully do it.
The use of electronics in markers and hoppers have made comparing them much more difficult, even at the level of your budget-priced sear-tripper.
[/list]

and it seems smart parts has or is on it's way to mastering the use of this info, which is not a bad thing, and i like that it'll bring more people into it because they feel they can compete right out of the box.

this marker also appeals to experienced players as shown by several posts from various people on this forum.

heck, i've been playing awhile and i picked one up and have used mine the last couple times i played. i'm very impressed with it overall and enjoy using it. i think it's one of the better paintball purchases i've made over the years.

like 'em or hate 'em, smart parts has hit the mark imho.

Vendetta

03-23-2005, 12:41 PM

Does anyone know if SP is acutally making a profit on the sale of these? I wonder if they are selling these below cost as another marketting ploy? If so, I can see people "moving up" from Ions to Nerves-Shockers. Very sneaky, and smart :argh:

Lohman446

03-23-2005, 12:43 PM

Funny, I had that conversation once and I am assured that SP is making money on these. Looking at the materials I can see it - I mean how much do the materials actually cost. And if the rumor is true that this was a discarded 03 Shocker design internally, meaning little R&D costs, I expect they are making a decent profit.

LONEWOLFOO1

03-23-2005, 12:45 PM

yeah its called brand loyalty. honda, nissan, toyota has that hands down maybe sp is learning from car manufactures. most people that own a honda civic would upgrade to a accord then from the accord to a tsx or tl everybody wants repeat customers.

Baby Huey

03-23-2005, 12:47 PM

From a business perspective, you can count on the fact that SP is making money off the sale of these. They would not be producing them if they were not. If this were the cost I am sure they would have jacked the price to $335. And at $335 it is still a good price for what you get.

Lohman446

03-23-2005, 12:52 PM

Baby Huey

03-23-2005, 12:58 PM

Judging by the sharp decline in sales of AGD, WDP (I'm guessing), WGP and the sudden "jump" to DM4 / 5's of recent years I'm guessing there is not much brand loyalty in paintball. Its whatever is hyped the most at the time.

I have noticed a HUGE jump to the DM4/5 in the last few months. I think we underestimate the word of mouth factor. I needed a mech gun for scenerio's (to backup my shocker in case it was raining) and through these forums I bought a RPG Paradigm (Rogues RT custom) because of people talking about their mags and through hearing great things about RogueFactor. A great way to reach people is in these forums. And its free. Maybe this forum should take out a couple ads in magazines to get people here, and then through this forum they may turn to the Mag. Just a thought. God Bless.

FSU_Paintball

03-23-2005, 01:10 PM

Why are people comparing the Evo to the Ion?

In my eyes the Ion is far superior. True, they both have similar ROF, in a similar price range and have eyes... but the Ion is smaller, is probably lighter (I've never held them), and most importantly, the Ion is NOT A SEAR TRIPPER. The Evo is a blowback sear tripper. That fact alone lifts the Ion above the evo in my eyes. I don't think it's quite fair to say the Evo is just as good.

jewie27

03-23-2005, 02:51 PM

blowback is a good design for 100 dollar guns, not 300 dollar guns.

Exactly.......

So explain why everyone and thier mom wants or has an Intimidator? Just because of Bob Long's name?????

It's a Spyder with a modified trigger system.

jewie27

03-23-2005, 03:04 PM

i have an ion (may be trading for an angel) this gun is the best thing you can get for the money. i have no idea how sp made this gun so cheep i would like to hear from plp who keep theirs in a year or so. they seem to hold up but ther are made by sp so you never know.

You know how?

They probably made so much money from Eclipse (Eblade) liscensing fees, they lowered the price of the Ion. LOL

Those Nazi's are trying to monopolize on everyone.

Lohman446

03-23-2005, 03:10 PM

Those Nazi's are trying to monopolize on everyone.

Explain to me if you can how you compare a business practice in a capitalistic society governed by a patent system and various laws to the third reich. Please

abunkerer

03-23-2005, 03:44 PM

:rofl:

those evil, yet bussiness savvy Nazis, they always patent everything!
**insert tasteless examples of things that the Nazis would patent here**

VFX_Fenix

03-23-2005, 07:09 PM

Actually part of the "move" from one gun to another is largely based on where you live, at least from what I've experienced. Here in Nor*Cal we have a lot of SP and Bob Long guns, head to So*Cal and you get into the so called "Heart" of DYE territory where "everyone" is a walking DYE/Proto advertisment. On the East Coast the tourney scene sees a lot of Schockers and Angels (according to a friend I have in New York).

Even back in the "Good Ol Days" Autocockers were West Coast and Automags were East Coast.

The Ion is something of a unique beast, based on just what serial numbers I've seen they must be just selling these things to everyone and their brother. Brand Loyalty will get you so far, consider that the true fans of any company (like AGD) will *always* buy what that company has to offer. C'mon, if AGD were to release a new gun pretty much everyone on this forum would trip over themselves trying to buy it.

Miscue

03-23-2005, 08:56 PM

I don't like what Smart Parts has done, but I can't ignore them either. For under $300 you get a marker that works like a Matrix, versus a $300 PMI or something that works like a Spyder. I'm not going to bother explaining why I favor how the Ion works.

I think that the high-end market is saturated, and has been for a long time. I predict more markers like the Ion will come out from other companies, and we're going to see super guns at $300-450. Inexpensive, not cheap - like was mentioned. Eventually there will be little to no distinction between these markers and the "high-end" markers besides cosmetics/body work/minor stuff.

Recon by Fire

03-23-2005, 10:28 PM

Lohman446

03-24-2005, 07:13 AM

I have not paid attention to the hype or hate about the Ion. I got to check out an Ion today; I was not impressed at all. If anything, it convinced me that I would never want one. The overall impression of this marker is cheap, and I am not referring to the price. But sure enough right in front of my eyes today someone rushed in to buy one. :eek: If you guys like it, that's great, but I could never see handing over any cash for the thing. :nono:

What didn't you like about it, I'm curious. I had teh exact opposite, I bought one, ordered one to see what they were like expecting it to feel cheap - I was pleasantly surprised when I picked it up.

alouba

03-24-2005, 09:17 AM

sorry but i didn't bother to read all the posts so if someone already said this, my bad
just want to clear a few things up

the ion is NOT a true electro, well, at least not in my definition. i consider an electro to be completly pneumatic. if i'm not mistaken the ion bolt is returned by a spring, just like the bko/b2k.

this brings me to my next point, the ion is NOT a spool valve, a spool valve, as exhibited in the matrix and the shocker, is a system that uses air to press against "sails" on the bolt in order to recock, once again, the ion's bolt is srping assisted. in essense, the ion appears to be a polymer mag that uses electronics to controll the firing of the valve.

and i must repectfully disagree with fireblade who posted somewhere in the begining on his point that the ion isn't considered by some as a $800 marker for $300. have any of you visited the b/s/t forums on pbnation? many owners selling they're trix, timmy, e-cocker, viking, borg, and other high end guns have a little line in their post that goes something like this "no trades, just looking for cash. but will consider ion" why would they want to trade for an ion and not somerthing of comparable value? i dunno what i can call it besides hype

so there, i'm done
i like to argue, so please disagree with me :shooting: :dance:

Lohman446

03-24-2005, 09:29 AM

alouba

03-24-2005, 09:35 AM

after a quick check i must agree with you
so it apears that i'm wrong
not sure what made me believed it was spring return in the first place

this does increase my opnion on the gun to a degree
yet the hype issue is still there and my overall position has not changed

93civiccpe

03-24-2005, 09:39 AM

I just bought an ion and my IQ went up 20 points and my my receding hairline started to grow back, my gut turned into a 6-pack, and Anna Kournikova showed up at my doorstep. LOL, it's just a paintball gun. I've fired one and it was good for the price. So what if you don't like it and think it's inferior. Does that mean someone can't shoot you out with one at a local game?? People get shot out with brass eagles & stuff at local games... if you don't like it, then you don't like it. If you do, then buy it. But I would buy it just for Anna.. lol.

teufelhunden

03-24-2005, 09:39 AM

Exactly.......

So explain why everyone and thier mom wants or has an Intimidator? Just because of Bob Long's name?????

It's a Spyder with a modified trigger system.

I thought we lost this ignorance on AO a while ago.

The similarities begin and end with both guns having two tubes; a bolt in the top and the system that moves the bolt back and forth in the bottom tube.

JimmyBeam

03-24-2005, 11:45 AM

all its gonna take is for you to be able to play an entire day with an Ion. i had my doubts in the beginning too, but its truly worth every penny

peewee

03-24-2005, 12:50 PM

My personal judge is still out. I'm watching how it takes a beating long term, 6 months or so. Before I make any purchasing. I think that people are comparing the EVO & Ion due to basic parameters of the two. ROF 17 BPS, anti chop & price. For some people the ST type marker is comfort food. In truth I believe both markers are worth the money. My son has a SRT eforce & it is easy to work on & has been reliable. PMI is slowly getting a much better quality product than they are being given credit for.

JimmyBeam

03-24-2005, 01:49 PM

but still the question is there......

what makes a "high end" marker high end.

is it the function, ergonomics, milling, other????

the Ion functions very well stock. 17bps, eyes, effecient.

and its very light

sure its uglier than most, but that doesnt change the way it shoots. and upgrades are on teh way. so lets take a Alias. believe me, if i had the cash to blow, that would be my main marker. but what makes it so much better than the Ion. what makes it cost 1k more? besides looks, and a couple more BPS, is there really that certain feature that makes it worth the extra grand?

RRfireblade

03-24-2005, 03:10 PM

so lets take a Alias. believe me, if i had the cash to blow, that would be my main marker. but what makes it so much better than the Ion. what makes it cost 1k more? besides looks, and a couple more BPS, is there really that certain feature that makes it worth the extra grand?

In a nut shell, qualtiy of components are a big part.

Ions are cast aluminum,much cheaper than milled,

Powder coat cheaper than anno,

They use a very in-expensive very simple basic soleniod,

The have no LPR,

Simple, pre asembled eye system,

Very basic and in-expensively built PC board and buttons,

It all adds to to large cost savings even though the assembled parts do function well as a unit.

After that you have the intended market for a product and what they are willing to spend, IE Entry level for time electro buyers VS. more experienced 'Tourny' players and their 'wish I was' counterparts.

But the material cost,initial investment on production demands (Buying the initial extrusion for the timmy bodies,etc) and R&D are a large part.

Lohman446

03-24-2005, 04:30 PM

In a nut shell, qualtiy of components are a big part.

Ions are cast aluminum,much cheaper than milled,

Powder coat cheaper than anno,

They use a very in-expensive very simple basic soleniod,

The have no LPR,

Simple, pre asembled eye system,

Very basic and in-expensively built PC board and buttons,

You're the expert in the area, let me ask you this. Are these parts they use of lower quality or just less expensive? And if they are lower quality are they of a lower enough qaulity taht you beleive it will, in time, influence the function of the marker?

RRfireblade

03-24-2005, 04:36 PM

You're the expert in the area, let me ask you this. Are these parts they use of lower quality or just less expensive? And if they are lower quality are they of a lower enough qaulity taht you beleive it will, in time, influence the function of the marker?

IMO, yes they are lower quality and lower cost.

And yes I think they will have an effect on performance long term.

FallNAngel

03-24-2005, 05:27 PM

The Evo is a blowback sear tripper. That fact alone lifts the Ion above the evo in my eyes. I don't think it's quite fair to say the Evo is just as good.

The Evo isn't made by Smart Parts... that alone put them back on equal footing IMO.

For under $300 you get a marker that works like a Matrix

Actually, it works like a mag ;)

JimmyBeam

03-24-2005, 05:47 PM

The Evo isn't made by Smart Parts... that alone put them back on equal footing IMO.

now thats just being ignorant

Actually, it works like a mag ;)

negative

kurama

03-24-2005, 05:54 PM

I agree on the marketing part. There are other markers comparable, but you must consider this:

- High end, or commonly mislabelled as pro/tournament grade is usually defined by not being a blowback. Most are electropneumatics, but some cases such as the mag take the high end cake aswell.

- The B2k's weren't on sale, and the low price is only at one store really. The BKO5's aren't out yet.

So, that sort of kills the competition sort-of making it the cheapest high end marker. Can the other markers in the pricerange compare, if not exceed the ion? Yes, but most don't meet the on-paper "high end" requirements. While the ION itself is far from high end stock, it looks like it is on paper and it's dang close. The diablo wrath is also high end, but I believe it wasn't out when SP made all their marketing stuff.

The other electros around the same price that are about equal are:
-BKO5 (and the B2k4PDS's now that they're on sale, but I won't count it since its a limited offer)
- PMI EVO
- Diablo Wrath (Is that the name of it)?

Now, most of them have downsides aswell. Here are the cons of the ION and EVO in my opinion, since they seem to be the point of discussion:

Feedneck
No LPR
Trigger
Reg/Grip

As you can see, those are some smaller things most people don't keep stock anyways, but the stock ones will suit you well for then. Its not like they need an entire internal overhaul or something horribly expensive to shoot well. I'm not counting the composite shell since it's somewhat opinionated (looks = opinion) and doesn't really affect the performance.

The EVO's downsides are:

It isn't an electropneumatic
PMI boards tend to skip shots a ton (I've experienced this firsthand with several PMI markers including an evo)

Really, the EVO is the best blowback I've shot. Still, when people look at the marker on paper they don't see that it doesn't have the many problems the blowback design tends to have. Also, nobody really makes new boards for PMI markers... Who knows why...

So, I'd call them even. Why is the EVO the underdog? Marketing. Still, can you blame smartparts? About every company we see these days is fueled with marketing ads and catchy phrases. Look at a paintball magazine and you'll see SP isnt the only hype-driven company. Look at McDonalds' shameless attempts to try to get black people to eat their food. Really, if a company wants to make loads of money there isn't a way around it and most companies want money. Its a shame that companies trying to put a good product on the market to give the customer a good deal are becoming rarer. SP just climbed the foodchain quite ruthlessly and they're trying to stay on top of it all.

hardr0ck68

03-24-2005, 06:05 PM

I havent read all the posts but wanted to chime in any ways.

I dont like SP, and i never will...they have always been shady and I dont care who tries to call it "good business" they are dirty. because of that i would hapily shoot a classic spyder before an Ion.

Hey and lets back track for a second WTF is wrong with sear tipper electros anyway? I always knew a day would come where cheap was cool, i just dont get why it took so long. An e-spyder goes for what $50 used while a shocktech mech cocker prolly gets 400+ . Lets face it the e-spyder will own that cocker in bps (and be on par for reliability). It never made sence to me, and still doesnt. I always shot AGD because Tom was a stand up guy and the cocker guys thought mags sucked.

Before the hate starts i have owned a sear tipper electro, E-mag, verty cocker (no not shocktech but really whats the differance?) and about 5 other mags.

Recon by Fire

03-24-2005, 06:17 PM

What didn't you like about it, I'm curious. I had teh exact opposite, I bought one, ordered one to see what they were like expecting it to feel cheap - I was pleasantly surprised when I picked it up.

It was just the general feel of the thing. The plastic body, the grip, the feed neck, the reg. It all had the blatant "i'm cheap" feel to me. The trigger was the best component IMHO.

Lohman446

03-24-2005, 06:36 PM

IMO, yes they are lower quality and lower cost.

And yes I think they will have an effect on performance long term.

I disagree - I think there will be some issues with replacment of those internal hoses, but the simple solenoid design looked rugged enough to me.

However... you are much more qualified than I am to answer the question of longevity in the hypothetical, so I could be wrong

RRfireblade

03-24-2005, 07:07 PM

I disagree - I think there will be some issues with replacment of those internal hoses, but the simple solenoid design looked rugged enough to me.

However... you are much more qualified than I am to answer the question of longevity in the hypothetical, so I could be wrong

It may last forever, who can really say, I can't.

But there's no question that it is a cheaper made and a less quality component than the typical Humphrey or SMC valves that most other 'high' end markers are using.It was most definately used as a cost cutting feature.Same with the PC Board and its components,same with the 'modular' eye system,plastic trigger and the other things I had mentioned.That's not a slam just an observation.

Now don't get me wrong, I like the ION myself and think it IS a nice deal for what you get at that price but do I think it will last as long as say a BKO? An Intimidator? A Xmag?

No,I really don't think so.

But for what it costs new, if it lasts a reasonable amount of time and replacement part costs are reasonable,most people will probably be fine with that. :)

Enraged Monk

03-26-2005, 04:05 PM

Okay, well heres a math lesson!

the Ion has the capability of shooting 17 bps, and costs around 285. $285/17BPS=16.7647059, thats roughly 17 dollars per BPS.

Now, lets do the Evo, just to be fair.

The Evo, with eyes on, is only cappable of 12 BPS. It costs around 250. 250 / 12 = 20.8333333 thats about 21 dollars per BPS.

Now lets look at the facts

..................................Ion............E vo
Eyes............................X................x
Bps.............................17..............12
True Electro-Pnue..........x
Stock Reg..................decent........sub-par

I want to know one way, other than price, which is not that great considering its $21 per BPS, that the Evo out Performs the Ion

Sean

Sorry for ressurecting an old thread, just had a few things to say.

FallNAngel

04-18-2005, 08:20 PM

Sorry if this is considered raising a dead thread...

now thats just being ignorant

Well, it's my opinion. Have I shot both? Nope.. I haven't even *HELD* both. From what I've seen of a track record for smart parts guns, their QC is iffy. This doesn't mean other companies are automagically better... it's just what I've seen. Either way, it's my opinion.... which I think I'm entitled to...

negative

Well, let's look:

Matrix: Spool valve
Ion: Blow forward
Automag: Blow forward

How is the Ion more like a Matrix than a Mag? Blow forwards use operating pressure to move the bolt forward, unlike spool valves which use a seperate source of air to move the bolt forward and back.

Glickman

04-18-2005, 08:43 PM

Well, it's my opinion. Have I shot both? Nope.. I haven't even *HELD* both. From what I've seen of a track record for smart parts guns, their QC is iffy. This doesn't mean other companies are automagically better... it's just what I've seen. Either way, it's my opinion.... which I think I'm entitled to...

one thing to think about is:

how many newbies buy automags?

vs

how many newbies buy smart parts products? :D

id say 95% of smart parts error are user error. never had any trouble in:

02 Horiz. Max impulse
03 Vert. Max Impulse
03 Ultimate Shocker
03 Max-Flow Tank
05 Ion

i like their quality control, id say its pretty damn good, awsome customer support.

pmi on the other hand, if you want poort quality control and poor customer service...

minimag03

04-18-2005, 08:49 PM

I agree with everything he said in the first post. The only thing that would make people get the Ion is the ramping.

Glickman

04-18-2005, 08:52 PM

I agree with everything he said in the first post. The only thing that would make people get the Ion is the ramping.

where the hell are all of these posts going? in one ear out the other?

im sure everyone and their dog bought an ion for ramping :rolleyes:

Reliable (ive dropped mine many times)
Well Performing (Shocker performance & speed)
Light
Nice profile
Cheap

ill take this over an xmag anyday...

minimag03

04-18-2005, 08:54 PM

i like their quality control, id say its pretty damn good, awsome customer support.

pmi on the other hand, if you want poort quality control and poor customer service...

Are you kidding? PMI's service is close to AGD's and AKA's in my experience.

On the other hand, I call in and talk to the techs on SP and none of them were able to help me with my shoebox Shocker. I also just got a AA barrel for my cocker. When it got here it had a huge scratch in the middle of the barrel back.

Codekevin0403

04-18-2005, 08:54 PM

i think that the ion is a not so great gun. I sold mine in a week because of a leaking problem...i'm not getting into that here though. But i think the reason that the EVO isn't selling so great is because PMI has so low-end guns out there. But the ION is made by smart parts, which put out relatively expensive paintball guns compared with PMI, such as the nerve and the shocker. So that's why i think that the ion is doing so great, because it was made by a factory in which they sell some nicer guns than PMI. Of course hype plays a role in it too, but can they really have backorder of some 14,000 or so guns just because of it???

oh, and also, i didnt' bother to read pages 2 through whatever, so don't get mad at me if somebody already said it.

Glickman

04-18-2005, 09:00 PM

Are you kidding? PMI's service is close to AGD's and AKA's in my experience.

On the other hand, I call in and talk to the techs on SP and none of them were able to help me with my shoebox Shocker. I also just got a AA barrel for my cocker. When it got here it had a huge scratch in the middle of the barrel back.

tell that to my neck and my arm which got cut up once each from "exploding" gauge.first time they installed it. sent it back, i had it aired up, slowly , during a game it just popped and shattered, cutting my arm

whats better?

they sent my tank to california... noone there took responsibility for it... just loved not having my tank for shatnerball. they sent me the wrong tank, decided to just use the tank they sent for that one day of shatnerball. guess what, popped and cut open the back of my neck. (totally different field, slow filled, totally different tank)

minimag03

04-18-2005, 09:14 PM

Glickman

04-18-2005, 09:20 PM

If the samething is happening with the tanks, then it sounds like one tech doesn't know what he is doing. I'd talk to higher people and tell them about what happened. I own two Pure Energy tanks and use a Thor reg and I never had a problem with them.

the guy i sent it though (if its sent by a company it gets done faster) spoke with the president, who told him to basically F* off...

id call him personally (hell only talk to store owners), but i dont want to pay the long distance charges to hell

Twiek

04-18-2005, 10:43 PM

Ions are cast aluminum,much cheaper than milled,

Whoa, where in the world did you hear that? All the aluminum is machined. You think they can get the tolerances tight enough for a spool valve gun with casting? Why do you think Tippman guns have such a coarse barrel thread? Heck, you can even see some of the tooling marks on the Ion.

Powder coat cheaper than anno,

The internals are annoed. Again, for tolerances. Yes, powder coating is cheaper, but that's not to say that it's worse for the truely cosmetic pieces (grip frame, outside of barrel/bottom line).

They use a very in-expensive very simple basic soleniod, Simple, pre asembled eye system,

I'd say those are good things. The solenoid is very simple and extremely durable. Just take one appart and see how they work. The seals are very much like cup seals in poppet valves, the core is beefy, and there aren't any springs to wear out... I would expect them to last a very long while.

The daughterboard concept is a good idea. I had CAD'ed designs of custom guns from a year ago with something similar. After 4 cases, I haven't had a single chop or barrel break... the eyes work.

Very basic and in-expensively built PC board and buttons,

It has adjustable dwell, adjustable rof, 4 firing modes (including ramping), eye functionality, and an easy way to turn the eyes off. It's capped, but that's not because it's "cheap" (the board itself could cycle @ 30+ if it was uncapped). Really, what more do you want?

The have no LPR,

Then a $1200 X-Mag must be cheap too... they don't have LPR's. How is this a valid argument? So what if it dosen't have an LPR? The Ion dosen't need one, neither do 'mags... does that automaticly make them cheap? LPR's add weight, cost, bulk, complexity, and higher maintainance. I could critisize mech 'mags for not having batteries, but then again, that's the reason a lot of people own them in the first place.

Well, let's look:

Matrix: Spool valve
Ion: Blow forward
Automag: Blow forward

How is the Ion more like a Matrix than a Mag? Blow forwards use operating pressure to move the bolt forward, unlike spool valves which use a seperate source of air to move the bolt forward and back.

For those of you who have forgotten how an Ion works (or never new in the first place), here's the ani:

http://members.cox.net/twiek/ion/ionani.gif

Yes, it's a blow forward. However, it's much more like a matrix than a 'Mag. The only difference between the Ion and a Matrix/DM is that the forward stroke of the bolt/"spool" on the Ion is powered by the chamber. The Ion dosen't have a separate on/off (while the Ion's bolt dosen't totally cut off the flow, the wide tail does reduce the flow to almost nothing), it dosen't have a sear, and it dosen't have a spring. In fact, the only springs in the entire gun are one in the 'reg and one inside the microswitch. There is a reason Dye is sueing SP over this design.

RRfireblade

04-18-2005, 11:12 PM

Whoa, where in the world did you hear that? All the aluminum is machined. You think they can get the tolerances tight enough for a spool valve gun with casting? Why do you think Tippman guns have such a coarse barrel thread? Heck, you can even see some of the tooling marks on the Ion.

it starts as a base casting made of cast aluminum, pot metal essentially and MUCH cheaper than starting with 6000 series aluminum as most other do

The internals are annoed. Again, for tolerances. Yes, powder coating is cheaper, but that's not to say that it's worse for the truely cosmetic pieces (grip frame, outside of barrel/bottom line).

They are tumbled and done in clear...another cost saving process.And we already covered Powder Coating is yes...anther cost saving method

I'd say those are good things. The solenoid is very simple and extremely durable. Just take one appart and see how they work. The seals are very much like cup seals in poppet valves, the core is beefy, and there aren't any springs to wear out... I would expect them to last a very long while.

You have no idea how durable it is so don't pretend to guess. I also said it may be but there is NO question it is a cheaper less quality part than what most others use today.

The daughterboard concept is a good idea. I had CAD'ed designs of custom guns from a year ago with something similar. After 4 cases, I haven't had a single chop or barrel break... the eyes work.

Good idea? Sure...cheaper to manufacturer? Right again. Lesser quality than a resin encapsulated board? You bet.

It has adjustable dwell, adjustable rof, 4 firing modes (including ramping), eye functionality, and an easy way to turn the eyes off. It's capped, but that's not because it's "cheap" (the board itself could cycle @ 30+ if it was uncapped). Really, what more do you want?

Since when does software become the determining factor of a quality built component? See my response to the eye board

Then a $1200 X-Mag must be cheap too... they don't have LPR's. How is this a valid argument? So what if it dosen't have an LPR? The Ion dosen't need one, neither do 'mags... does that automaticly make them cheap? LPR's add weight, cost, bulk, complexity, and higher maintainance. I could critisize mech 'mags for not having batteries, but then again, that's the reason a lot of people own them in the first place.

Obviously the Xmag does NOT require an LPR for normal operation,nor does it benefit from one in ANY way.It's NOT an eletro-pnuematic marker.Is it however built of better quality componets than an ION, without question. Most others however do have LPRs and benefit from them.Also, most would rather not risk failure to the E-niods due to over pressurization, not to mention enhanced efficiency in most cases as well. AND....it adds cost to the marker.Another cost sutting measure on the ION, sorry but true.

;)

Lohman446

04-18-2005, 11:16 PM

I honestly dont think the Ion has an overpressurazation to the solenoid concern.. those macro lines arent going to hold in the bnody long enough for htat to be a concern

RRfireblade

04-18-2005, 11:18 PM

Oh and BTW, if an LPR would have benefited the XMAG in ANY way, you bet you bottom dollar AGD would have included one. ;)

SNDavidson

04-18-2005, 11:34 PM

We know... but we don't care. At least, that's what we'd like everyone to think. The average poster here will be quick to tell you that this is a dead topic, that smart parts has been discussed in this manner thousands (it probably has) of times in already. Shouldn't we all ask ourselves why this sort of thing doesn't go away? Why does this topic not end? The truth is, we all love our mags, we all love AGD. But in the back of our minds, we wonder why there hasn't been anything new. I don't care what you say, it's true. It's difficult to think this way, and maybe that's why we snuff these topics before they ever get started, because we know there's nothing new on the way. Now, you can blame it on the nature of the paintball business and it's advertising, the incredibly fast production of "new" equipment... or even smart parts. The fact is, AGD just hasn't done much of anything in a long time, and it stinks. Yet we still log on every day. I just have one thing to say: AGD, do it, make the uber marker of death and destruction, you make it, we'll all find a way to buy it, and when we buy it, more will follow suit, and so on and so forth. You are, and always will be the king...you've proved it to us, prove it to everyone, paintball is more than a community now, it's a full on sport. dominate... please.

Twiek

04-18-2005, 11:35 PM

it starts as a base casting made of cast aluminum, pot metal essentially and MUCH cheaper than starting with 6000 series aluminum as most other do

All aluminum starts its life as a base casting somewere along the line. You said the parts were cast. That is wrong, they are machined. Yes, it's a cheaper grade of aluminum, that's not in dispute. SP's other 'guns are also made of cheap aluminum, but nobody's calling the shocker "cheap".

They are tumbled and done in clear...another cost saving process.And we already covered Powder Coating is yes...anther cost saving method

Yes, the internals are anno'ed (in black)... again, that's not what you said originally. The process is essentially the same as any other anno'ed marker.

You have no idea how durable it is so don't pretend to guess. I also said it may be but there is NO question it is a cheaper less quality part than what most others use today.

If you can take it apart, throw the pieces across the room, dust them off, reassemble them and have it funciton perfectly... then yes, it is durable. Cheaper, yes. "Less quality", no.

Good idea? Sure...cheaper to manufacturer? Right again. Lesser quality than a resin encapsulated board? You bet.

What other marker has an eye-board in the same arangement as an Ion? Most markers with eyes don't even use a board... they just bolt the diode straight to the outside of the body, more-or-less unprotected. I'll take a "lesser quality" non-resin encapsulated board over a "lesser quality" way of attaching an eye. There are only like 5 traces on the daughterboard anyway, what possible benefit could you get out of encapsulating it?

Obviously the Xmag does NOT require an LPR for normal operation,nor does it benefit from one in ANY way.It's NOT an eletro-pnuematic marker.Is it however built of better quality componets than an ION, without question. Most others however do have LPRs and benefit from them.Also, most would rather not risk failure to the E-niods due to over pressurization, not to mention enhanced efficiency in most cases as well. AND....it adds cost to the marker.Another cost sutting measure on the ION, sorry but true.

Just like the X-Mag, the Ion does NOT require an LPR for normal operation,nor does it benefit from one in ANY way. The 'noid does not have lots of small delicate parts in it. As I said, it's a stout little piece that's designed to operate at those high pressures (as opposed to SP's earlier method of using 100psi rated 'noids in 180psi markers). If you regulated the air going into the 'noid below the operating pressure, it would stop working... therefore, is not necessary.

RRfireblade

04-19-2005, 12:08 AM

Baby Huey

04-19-2005, 06:46 AM

Good morning. I have been around six or seven Ions now in various tournys, leagues, and rec days. They all work great. The ramping mode is not even worth being discussed because you are not allowed to use it during rec ball (open play) or in tournys. The only time I have used the ramping in my Shocker is during team practice night when everybody has the best equipment.

I am not sure who posted it, but the ION does not have the speed of a Shocker. Very fast for the $$ but not as fast as a Shocker (we have run them side by side to compare).

Thank you for your time and God Bless.

Baby Huey

Twiek

04-19-2005, 07:12 AM

Listen, you want to be blind to the truth or live in your little land of denial that's fine.I gain nothing by trying to convince you of the clear and obvious facts of production methods,overall construction and design as is understood by the vast majority of the rest of the paintball industry.

Go ahead,believe what ever want and enjoy your ION for as long as you wish.I wish you a happy life,thanks.

Yea, I know nothing of the design... I obviously don't know how it works :rolleyes:

I never said the Ion was some super marker that is better than any thing out there. I know it's inexpensive, that's why I freaking bought one. I'm not "blind to the truth" or "in my land of denial", I was simply stating fact (which is more than a healthy portion of the rest of this thread). Yes, SP used cost effective methods for producing the Ion... as has been said before inexpensive != cheap.

The Lotus Elise has an aluminum, resin bonded frame. The Chevrolet Corvette has a steel, welded frame. Steel and welding are significantly cheaper than aluminum and resin bonding.... Does that make the Corvette cheap? It's just a different method of getting the same thing done. They're both quick, agile cars that are well worth the money. They're just different.

I'll add more when I get home from work.

RRfireblade

04-19-2005, 09:17 AM

Yea, I know nothing of the design... I obviously don't know how it works :rolleyes:

I never said the Ion was some super marker that is better than any thing out there. I know it's inexpensive, that's why I freaking bought one. I'm not "blind to the truth" or "in my land of denial", I was simply stating fact (which is more than a healthy portion of the rest of this thread). Yes, SP used cost effective methods for producing the Ion... as has been said before inexpensive != cheap.

The Lotus Elise has an aluminum, resin bonded frame. The Chevrolet Corvette has a steel, welded frame. Steel and welding are significantly cheaper than aluminum and resin bonding.... Does that make the Corvette cheap? It's just a different method of getting the same thing done. They're both quick, agile cars that are well worth the money. They're just different.

I'll add more when I get home from work.

No need. Everything that can be said has been.

You want to agree that's it's inexpensively built than when those cost cutting measures are pointed out you want to argue that it's not. Makes no sense. I also don't argue whether or not you know how it functions, that still has no claim on it's construction methods and materials, let's try and stay focused if you want to have any kind of coherant discussion.

In any regard, this is a pointless arguement. The bottom line is it's a cheaply built marker using cheap components, that's the undeniable fact.

All the questions that need to answered are these, based on MY opinion and w/ a background in design and product development for the paintball industry for a number of years now:

Is quality of construction and materials on par with the best markers on the market right now? No.

Is it built 'good enough'? Sure, maybe. Besides some air fitting and reg issues,it seems to be so far. Most out of box issues are typically an easy fix by the user.

Does it perform well? Sure, it seems to work quite well.

Is it worth the money? Yah, I'd say so. Despite the first few 4-500 runs with acknowledged issues, it seems to be getting sorted out now.

Would I buy one? I would consider it if i was looking for a low end electro,it's very likely one of the best bangs for the buck right now.

Would I recommend it? For someone looking for a marker in that price range, sure.I've sold quite a few already.

And that's about all I have to say on the subject. :)

(Oh, and BTW...of the 'commonly' used materials, steel is one of the most expensive construction materials period,and has been for some time now. ;))

Vendetta

04-19-2005, 09:25 AM

My biggest complaint so for is that I cut my finger and the barrel threads :mad:

Twiek

04-19-2005, 06:55 PM

You want to agree that's it's inexpensively built than when those cost cutting measures are pointed out you want to argue that it's not. Makes no sense.

Yes, it's inexpensive. But where is the law written that inexpensive equals cheap?

What adds up to cheapness? A lower grade of aluminum and a non-resin encapsulated board? Why does a device that slings paint need 7000 series aluminum when 2000 series will do everything the 7000 series will, but for less cost? You're not stressing the aluminum past 50,000 psi, so what does that extra cost get you? I don't equate non-overkill as "cheap". Inexensive, yes... but for the millionth time, inexpensive does not equal cheap.

Lets put it this way, it's a cheaply built marker the same way a Corvette is a cheaply built car. Yes, a McLaren F1 is a monocoque design made from autoclave fired, resin bonded, preempregnated carbon fiber and the Corvette "only" uses a welded steel ladder frame. A welded steel ladder frame is very inexpensive compared to all the fuss of carbon fiber in the F1. But you'll never find someone who says the Corvette is a cheaply built car.

Is quality of construction and materials on par with the best markers on the market right now? No.

I'll agree with you on the materials part, it's not made from the same grade of aluminum as more expensive markers, and it dosen't use rediculous materials like titanium. BUT, just because it's not a DMC dosen't mean it's cheap. You're using the fact that there are markers out on the market now that are made out of spacecraft grade aluminum and titanium to say that anything less is "cheap". That is absurd... something dosen't have to be the best to not be cheap.

(Oh, and BTW...of the 'commonly' used materials, steel is one of the most expensive construction materials period,and has been for some time now. ;))

Sure steel is more expensive that concrete or wood, but that wasn't the analogy I was making... Steel is most definately not the most expensive materials in cars. Steel ladder frames are still the cheapest and easiest way to make a car frame. Aluminum space frames (like the ones found in the Elise) are more difficult to engineer and much more expensive, not to mention the use of monocoques, compsites, and adhesive bonding, or combinations thereof.

In any regard, this is a pointless arguement. The bottom line is it's a cheaply built marker using cheap components, that's the undeniable fact.

No, it's opinion. What's an undeniable fact is that the Ion is inexpensive, built using inexpensive components. The designation "cheap" is not quantifiable. It is simply your opinion.

And I disagree ;)

tyrion2323

04-20-2005, 09:52 AM

I'm throwing this out there for all of the new guys talking about the ION and wondering about getting it; and to the guys who just are suckers for Smart Parts and their marketing. I want to clear up a few points...blah blah...complain complain...

Fool. Thanks for starting another one of those 12-page long rant-fests that get people up in arms about benign matters. Let ME clear some things up:

1) Not everyone who buys a SP gun is "suckered" in by "hype." Some people...actually like SP guns. Imagine that!

2) Hype is an overused, misunderstood concept on AO. Whenever someone doesn't like something, they say, "it's just hype!" Tom Kaye kept saying that about Timmies, Matrices and Angels...and look where it got him. Advertising is not hype. Enthusiasm is not hype.

3) There is no "best gun" in the world, nor is there anything known as "$800 quality". It's true, the ION is not made of the best materials in the world...but do you think the Pirahna EVO is? Wake up. The EVO is a $260 version of what I could do myself for $120 with a Wal-Mart spyder and an aftermarket board.

4) The majority of "hype" is imagined by the people who dislike the ION. I have NEVER met a kid who claimed that his ION could outperform a Viking, nor have I ever seen it on the internet... And is it right to hate a gun simply because you don't like the people who have it?

RRfireblade

04-20-2005, 10:30 AM

Yes, SP used cost effective methods for producing the Ion... as has been said before inexpensive != cheap.

Yes, it's inexpensive. But where is the law written that inexpensive equals cheap?

What adds up to cheapness? A lower grade of aluminum and a non-resin encapsulated board?

For starters,now your catching on.

I'll agree with you on the materials part, it's not made from the same grade of aluminum as more expensive markers

I never said the Ion was some super marker that is better than any thing out there. I know it's inexpensive

Lets put it this way, it's a cheaply built marker the same way a Corvette is a cheaply built car. Yes, a McLaren F1 is a monocoque design made from autoclave fired, resin bonded, preempregnated carbon fiber and the Corvette "only" uses a welded steel ladder frame. A welded steel ladder frame is very inexpensive compared to all the fuss of carbon fiber in the F1. But you'll never find someone who says the Corvette is a cheaply built car.

Yes, compared to a 1 million dollar hand built super car, the corvette is built cheaply.:D

ION = riced out Honda but coming that way stock. (No offence to the Honda 'ricers )

as they compare to say, Z06 Vette or a Porsche or whatever.

I'm still failing to see where the arguement is. ;)

You seem to want and apply some 'extra' derragatory connotation to the word "Cheap" when I say it but it's fine when you say it.

I think where your lost is in precisely asking the question of whether or not the ION is 'subpar'...and I've already stated that in it's price range, it's not. In fact, I've also stated I think it's a good value for it's cost and the features you get.

I can't imagine what else there could be left to this discussion. Guess we'll have to wait and see. :D

(Why is it that the simple purchasing of a specific marker automatically creates some crazy bond that ties the owner to it in such a why that all logic and reason get's thrown out the window during emotional attempt to defend it honor? )

And for good measure...

:dance: :clap: :dance: :clap: :dance: :clap:

bound for glory

04-20-2005, 10:34 AM

i, for one, am sick and tired of reading about the ion an ao. is'nt there a ion owners site yet :rolleyes: go there...please! and now i have to go test out my new DEVILMAG :clap:

ApexAZ

04-20-2005, 10:37 AM

I got to fire my friends new ION and it was okay. I liked the speed...

Aside from that it felt like a Super Soaker to me.

As far as how cheaply built it is... I'm a firm believer in: you get what you pay for.

JimmyBeam

04-20-2005, 11:49 AM

As far as how cheaply built it is... I'm a firm believer in: you get what you pay for.

yep and Im totally satisified with the 284 I spent

Lohman446

04-20-2005, 11:50 AM

yep and Im totally satisified with the 284 I spent

Ahh yes, but how much do you have into your Ion?

JimmyBeam

04-20-2005, 12:22 PM

Ahh yes, but how much do you have into your Ion?

lets see

feedneck 35
trigger 35
rail on off 45
grips 20
freak barrell 100
QEV 10
detonator - yanked from friends Omen ;)

not too much i guess

Lohman446

04-20-2005, 01:37 PM

What is the advantage of the QEVs btw... just curious if I should bother putting them on mine. My general theory is to just keep it stock and use it as a backup, but i might toy with it some

JimmyBeam

04-20-2005, 02:23 PM

What is the advantage of the QEVs btw... just curious if I should bother putting them on mine. My general theory is to just keep it stock and use it as a backup, but i might toy with it some

it allows the used gas that is putting pressure on the bolt to exit the marker quicker and easier. no backpressure means the dwell or time the bolt is held open can be reduced to almost nothin. increasing effeciency and speed.

once installing it you can turn your dwell down to ~7

FallNAngel

04-20-2005, 04:45 PM

Yes, it's a blow forward. However, it's much more like a matrix than a 'Mag.

Personally, I'm well aware of how Ion's work... they're not complicated markers. However, they *ARE* more like mags than matrices... I still don't see how anyone can think otherwise.

The only difference between the Ion and a Matrix/DM is that the forward stroke of the bolt/"spool" on the Ion is powered by the chamber.[/b]

Yes, but that's *EXACTLY* what makes a blow forward different than a spool valve. I'm not arguing that they don't function similiarly... I'm saying the small differences are what make the Ion less like a Matrix and more like a Mag.

The Ion dosen't have a separate on/off (while the Ion's bolt dosen't totally cut off the flow, the wide tail does reduce the flow to almost nothing), it dosen't have a sear, and it dosen't have a spring. In fact, the only springs in the entire gun are one in the 'reg and one inside the microswitch. There is a reason Dye is sueing SP over this design.

OK...
A) Just because the Ion doesn't have an on/off doesn't mean it's not a blow forward or not a mag... it just means it won't have great efficiency.
B) The fact that the mag has a sear and spring doesn't make it any less of a blow forward, it just means it's not a full electopneumatic blow forward
C) Why wouldn't Dye go after ICD, which is a smaller company, with the *EXACT* same design (electopneumatic blow forward) but had the marker on the market at least a year earlier?

nicad

04-20-2005, 06:22 PM

C) Why wouldn't Dye go after ICD, which is a smaller company, with the *EXACT* same design (electopneumatic blow forward) but had the marker on the market at least a year earlier?

Because its not the same design. Dye owns the design that has a bolt cutting off its own input air (spool bolt). The freestyle does not do this.

Even the Freestyle HE kits.. Whoever designed the HE kit (Greg Schutte??) was very sneaky- they used the FLOW of air to close off the input air supply.. not the movement of the bolt. There is a difference.
It is the same concept that Greg Duncan (Aardvark) came up with (slam bolt) when DYE issued all the aftermarket Matrix bolt makers a Cease and Desist.

interesting, twisted stuff.. :)
out!

Twiek

04-20-2005, 06:35 PM

The only difference between the Ion and a Matrix/DM is that the forward stroke of the bolt/"spool" on the Ion is powered by the chamber.

Yes, but that's *EXACTLY* what makes a blow forward different than a spool valve. I'm not arguing that they don't function similiarly... I'm saying the small differences are what make the Ion less like a Matrix and more like a Mag.

The Ion has one operational difference from the Matrix, and about 5 operational differences from a 'mag. In fact, the one operation difference from the Matrix is the only similarity to the 'mag. The Ion even resembles a Matrix. Heck, you could put an air fitting on the back of an Ion to make it a true spool valve, and you could modify the Matrix to operate just like an Ion. And both the Ion and Matrix could be used as true pneumatic markers.

C) Why wouldn't Dye go after ICD, which is a smaller company, with the *EXACT* same design (electopneumatic blow forward) but had the marker on the market at least a year earlier?

Because the Freestyle isn't similar enough to a Matrix to infringe. The Freestyle is closer to a 'mag than the Ion... It uses a powertube; once the bolt clears the tube, the chamber dumps... exactly like a 'mag. The Ion uses essentially a spool valve (you could say it's not technicly a spool, but it's very similar); a slot in the bolt clears a ring seal and allows the chamber to dump through the slot and bolt... exactly like the Matrix.

Tim 3

04-20-2005, 06:53 PM

FallNAngel

04-20-2005, 07:12 PM

interesting, twisted stuff.. :)

interesting and twisted stuff indeed. So it's the fact that the Ion bolt cuts off it's own air supply that Dye is going after smart parts... not that the operation of the blow forward is too close to the Matrix. So... basically all SP has to do is not have the bolt cut off it's own air flow when the bolt is forward to get around the patent?

The Ion has one operational difference from the Matrix, and about 5 operational differences from a 'mag.

That's like saying mech cockers aren't the same as electo cockers because they're functionally different... I mean, electro cockers have a solenoid instead of a 3-way, they have a solenoid to actuate the sear... it's the same design. How it gets to the end is a bit different, but the design is the same.

In fact, the one operation difference from the Matrix is the only similarity to the 'mag.

The Ion even resembles a Matrix.

No... not really...

Heck, you could put an air fitting on the back of an Ion to make it a true spool valve

No, you can't. The air that's going to be used to fire the ball is the same air that pushes the bolt forward in a blow forward design. You'd have to make significant changes to the Ion to get it to function like a spool valved gun.

and you could modify the Matrix to operate just like an Ion. And both the Ion and Matrix could be used as true pneumatic markers.

Again, not without significant changes. With the LPR turned all the way out on a Matrix, the bolt will still stay back. You'll have to figure out how to
A) get the operating pressure to put force on the back of the bolt to blow the bolt forward
B) get enough LPR pressure to apply enough force to push the bolt back against the HP air

Because the Freestyle isn't similar enough to a Matrix to infringe.

Going by what NiCad said, it's because the Freestyle's bolt doesn't cut off it's own air supply. Aside from the Ion cutting off it's own air supply, the Ion functions *EXACTLY* like a Freestyle.

The Freestyle is closer to a 'mag than the Ion... It uses a powertube; once the bolt clears the tube, the chamber dumps... exactly like a 'mag.

Actually, the chamber doesn't dump... Freestyles just vent air. Even with the HE kit, the flow of air doesn't stop. Yes, the *PARTS* used in a Freestyle is more similiar to a Mag than an Ion... it doesn't mean the *FUNCTION* is different. They both function as blowforwards... the only difference is that mag's have an on/off to cut off the air supply. That's really about it.

The Ion uses essentially a spool valve (you could say it's not technicly a spool, but it's very similar); a slot in the bolt clears a ring seal and allows the chamber to dump through the slot and bolt... exactly like the Matrix.

Well, you could say the same thing about a Freestyle... when the bolt moves forward from the air pressure, the o-ring on the valve stem clears the power tube and allows air to vent through the slot in the bolt...

Twiek

04-20-2005, 08:24 PM

That's like saying mech cockers aren't the same as electo cockers because they're functionally different... I mean, electro cockers have a solenoid instead of a 3-way, they have a solenoid to actuate the sear... it's the same design. How it gets to the end is a bit different, but the design is the same.

No, electro cockers aren't functionally different from mech cockers. They still have a sear, and they still have a 4-way. They still operate in the same manner. The same way that an E-mag is functionally the same as a normal 'mag (you can even use an e-mag mechanicly).

The Ion and 'mags are significantly different. No sear, no spring, no on-off, no powertube, completely pneumatic operation, and essentialy a spool bolt. The Matrix has no sear, no spring, no on-off, no powertube, compltely pneumatic operation, and a spool bolt. The Ion and 'mag are "blow forward", where the Matrix is a "force forward".

If the Ion is like a 'mag because of that one similarity, regardless of the similarities to the matrix, then I'll say that a 'cocker is like an Ego because they both use poppet valves.

No, you can't. The air that's going to be used to fire the ball is the same air that pushes the bolt forward in a blow forward design. You'd have to make significant changes to the Ion to get it to function like a spool valved gun.

All you'd have to do is apply pressure to the very back of the bolt (the rear of the tail). If you really wanted to, you could machine down the middle of the bolt and use a smaller bolt stop so that the bolt didn't naturally have a forward force. Many of the bolt kits will replace the bolt stop in the same methodology, so I wouldn't call it a "significant" change.

Again, not without significant changes. With the LPR turned all the way out on a Matrix, the bolt will still stay back. You'll have to figure out how to
A) get the operating pressure to put force on the back of the bolt to blow the bolt forward
B) get enough LPR pressure to apply enough force to push the bolt back against the HP air

Simple. Machine down the tail of the bolt. With the tail of the bolt smaller than the forward chamber seal, it will be forced forward when the chamber is full.

pop tart

04-20-2005, 08:44 PM

the bushmaster with pds is killer for only 319

FallNAngel

04-20-2005, 10:01 PM

No, electro cockers aren't functionally different from mech cockers. They still have a sear, and they still have a 4-way. They still operate in the same manner. The same way that an E-mag is functionally the same as a normal 'mag (you can even use an e-mag mechanicly).[/b]

Which is the same with an Ion and Automag... Instead of a sear and spring, you have a solenoid and air pressure... It accomplishes the EXACT same thing. They are functionally the same except the on/off.

The Ion and 'mag are "blow forward", where the Matrix is a "force forward".

The Matrix is a spool valve... not sure where you're getting the term "force forward"... sounds like you're making stuff up as you go along now.

If the Ion is like a 'mag because of that one similarity, regardless of the similarities to the matrix, then I'll say that a 'cocker is like an Ego because they both use poppet valves.

Now, you're just trying to be difficult. The cocker's bolt and hammer aren't linked, one is a closed bolt, one is open. If you wanted to say a timmy is like an Ego, that I'd agree with. Functionally, they're the same.

If you really wanted to, you could machine down the middle of the bolt and use a smaller bolt stop so that the bolt didn't naturally have a forward force. Many of the bolt kits will replace the bolt stop in the same methodology, so I wouldn't call it a "significant" change.All you'd have to do is apply pressure to the very back of the bolt (the rear of the tail). If you really wanted to, you could machine down the middle of the bolt and use a smaller bolt stop so that the bolt didn't naturally have a forward force. Many of the bolt kits will replace the bolt stop in the same methodology, so I wouldn't call it a "significant" change.

Applying pressure to the back of the bolt would put force on the rear of the tail, which would push the bolt forward. All you've done is move where on the bolt the pressure pushes.

Simple. Machine down the tail of the bolt. With the tail of the bolt smaller than the forward chamber seal, it will be forced forward when the chamber is full.

Yes, but you also have to deal with *FORCE*. The force of the operating pressure pushing forward on that large of a piston is likely to easily overpower the force of the LPR pressure.

Twiek

04-21-2005, 06:32 PM

Which is the same with an Ion and Automag... Instead of a sear and spring, you have a solenoid and air pressure... It accomplishes the EXACT same thing. They are functionally the same except the on/off.

Now, you're just trying to be difficult. The cocker's bolt and hammer aren't linked, one is a closed bolt, one is open. If you wanted to say a timmy is like an Ego, that I'd agree with. Functionally, they're the same.

So, the difference between sear/spring and solenoid/air pressure is somehow less than the difference between bolt and hammer linked? There are kits to turn blow backs (similar to an Ego/Timmy) into 'cockers (i.e. unlinking the bolt and hammer)... They don't make kits to turn 'Mags into Ions. If you say it accomplishes the same thing, then the bolt forward and reverse strokes on a 'cocker and Ego are both powered by pressure, and controlled by a 4 way, accomplishing the same thing (using the same method, no less).

If you really want to talk about accomplishing the exact same thing, then all paintball guns are functionally the same. They all use air pressure to fling spherical geletin encapsulated balls of paint out of a round barrel (most of which use bolts to accomplish the chambering of a ball).

Or, you could say that the forward force applied by the chamber on the bolt accomplishes the EXACT same thing that the pressure applied to the rear of the "ram" part of the bolt in the Matrix.

The Matrix is a spool valve... not sure where you're getting the term "force forward"... sounds like you're making stuff up as you go along now.

I used the term "force forward" to indicate that the mode of forward bolt travel is only slightly different than the Ion. Instead of using the area difference between the front and rear chamber seals, you apply pressure to a separate chamber to do the same thing. It forces the bolt forward instead of "blowing" it forward. Hence the term.

Applying pressure to the back of the bolt would put force on the rear of the tail, which would push the bolt forward. All you've done is move where on the bolt the pressure pushes.

Yes, exactly. It would become a spool valve at that point. If the pressure on the rear of the bolt was switched (along with the air to the front of the bolt) by a 4-way, then you have a true spool-valve. This is because the only difference between the Ion in the Matrix is where/which air pushes the bolt forward.

Yes, but you also have to deal with *FORCE*. The force of the operating pressure pushing forward on that large of a piston is likely to easily overpower the force of the LPR pressure.

Umm... that's just math. You'd machine down the tail only so far, so the return air pressure would create more rearward force than the forward force from the pressure in the chamber... If you gave me the dimensions of the bolt in the Matrix, I could tell you exactly how far to machine it to match the forces in the Ion. You won't need an LPR (just like the Ion dosen't), and if you remember, the first Matrixes didn't have them either.

tyrion2323

04-21-2005, 06:32 PM

Why are you guys *STILL* arguing over this...? It's been post after post of, "no - YOU're wrong," "no- YOU're wrong,"

AAIGGH! :tard:

FallNAngel

04-21-2005, 07:23 PM

So, the difference between sear/spring and solenoid/air pressure is somehow less than the difference between bolt and hammer linked? There are kits to turn blow backs (similar to an Ego/Timmy) into 'cockers (i.e. unlinking the bolt and hammer)...

Yes... which changes the function of the marker... At that point it's not an open bolt blowback, it's a closed bolt blowback. The Ion is still a blow forward, which is different than a Matrix, which is a spool valve.

They don't make kits to turn 'Mags into Ions. If you say it accomplishes the same thing, then the bolt forward and reverse strokes on a 'cocker and Ego are both powered by pressure, and controlled by a 4 way, accomplishing the same thing (using the same method, no less).

Yes, and cockers are fired with a hammer with force from a spring and are closed bolt. Ego's are fired with a hammer with the force of air pressure and are open bolt.

If you really want to talk about accomplishing the exact same thing, then all paintball guns are functionally the same. They all use air pressure to fling spherical geletin encapsulated balls of paint out of a round barrel (most of which use bolts to accomplish the chambering of a ball).

Yes, then get broken down into different categories depending on *HOW* it fires the ball out of the barrel, such as open bolt blow back, spool valve, blow forward, etc.

Or, you could say that the forward force applied by the chamber on the bolt accomplishes the EXACT same thing that the pressure applied to the rear of the "ram" part of the bolt in the Matrix.

No, it would not be the exact same thing as a Matrix. In a Matrix, the air used to fire the ball *DOES NOT* move the bolt... at all. Period. It is not used in any way, shape or form to move the bolt. Air gets moved into an air chamber, then seperate pressure (at least for the newer generations... the *OLD* matrices didn't have LPRS) is used to move the bolt. In blow forwards, the same air that will propell the ball, also moves the bolt forward. Here, the force it takes to move the bolt forward and back *MUST* be balanced properly... it does not have to be balanced on a spool valve.

I used the term "force forward" to indicate that the mode of forward bolt travel is only slightly different than the Ion.

Yes, but it's those small differences that separate the two models. Either you're converting it to a spool valve, keeping it the same model, or coming up with something completely different.

Yes, exactly. It would become a spool valve at that point. If the pressure on the rear of the bolt was switched (along with the air to the front of the bolt) by a 4-way, then you have a true spool-valve. This is because the only difference between the Ion in the Matrix is where/which air pushes the bolt forward.

Yes, the difference *IS* which air pushes the bolt forward... at this point, you're *STILL* using air that will fire the ball to move the bolt... which makes it a blow forward.

Umm... that's just math. You'd machine down the tail only so far, so the return air pressure would create more rearward force than the forward force from the pressure in the chamber... If you gave me the dimensions of the bolt in the Matrix, I could tell you exactly how far to machine it to match the forces in the Ion. You won't need an LPR (just like the Ion dosen't), and if you remember, the first Matrixes didn't have them either.

Yes, I know it's just math, but the stem can only be machined down so far before it's out of tolerance with the parts around it (sealing purposes)... which means you may need new parts. I'm not saying it can't be done... I'm saying it can't be done easily.

Why are you guys *STILL* arguing over this...? It's been post after post of, "no - YOU're wrong," "no- YOU're wrong,"

AAIGGH! :tard:

Why? Because we want to. If you don't want to chime in and take a stance, you don't have to. As it is, this isn't a flame fest, there's no name calling and nothing is getting out of hand.

Lohman446

04-21-2005, 08:23 PM

Its a matter of what is protected under patent

Do minor details keep it from infringing on intellectual property rights (as SP argues with teh Ion)

or

Does the base theory of makign something happen, well how broad of a theory, make something patentable (as SP argues on the electronics patent)

Twiek

04-21-2005, 08:36 PM

Yes, and cockers are fired with a hammer with force from a spring and are closed bolt. Ego's are fired with a hammer with the force of air pressure and are open bolt.

Yes, and 'mags are returned with force from a spring and have a separate on-off, and Ions are returned from force of air pressure and have a "spool bolt" that integrates the on-off. If that makes a difference between the 'cocker and the Ego, then why dosen't it make a difference between a 'mag and an Ion?

No, it would not be the exact same thing as a Matrix. In a Matrix, the air used to fire the ball *DOES NOT* move the bolt... at all. Period. It is not used in any way, shape or form to move the bolt. Air gets moved into an air chamber, then seperate pressure (at least for the newer generations... the *OLD* matrices didn't have LPRS) is used to move the bolt. In blow forwards, the same air that will propell the ball, also moves the bolt forward. Here, the force it takes to move the bolt forward and back *MUST* be balanced properly... it does not have to be balanced on a spool valve.

No, the Ion is not exactly like the matrix... that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the Ion is similar to the matrix.

Yes, but it's those small differences that separate the two models.

That's exactly what I'm saying. There is a small difference that separates the two models, and only a small difference. There is a large difference between an Ion and a 'mag.

Yes, the difference *IS* which air pushes the bolt forward... at this point, you're *STILL* using air that will fire the ball to move the bolt... which makes it a blow forward.

Then you don't understand what I'm saying. The air going into the back of the bolt is not the air in the chamber... it's air from a 4-way:

http://members.cox.net/twiek/ion/spool.jpg

In which case, it functions exactly like a Matrix. In fact, the area difference between the rear tail seal and the forward bolt is 0.004 sq. in. So at 40 psi (a good estimate of LPR pressure, should one be used), the difference in force between forward and return is only 0.17 pounds (return being greater).

Yes, I know it's just math, but the stem can only be machined down so far before it's out of tolerance with the parts around it (sealing purposes)... which means you may need new parts. I'm not saying it can't be done... I'm saying it can't be done easily.

Not the stem, the tail.... You'd have to use a different (or sleve the current one) rear chamber seal, but if the operating pressure is 170 psi, you'd only need a 0.02 sq. in. difference to create a forward force of 4 pounds. There is plenty of material on the stock bolt to do that. Changing two parts for ones that are only slightly different (or modifing the current parts to work) isn't what I'd call hard.

Why? Because we want to. If you don't want to chime in and take a stance, you don't have to. As it is, this isn't a flame fest, there's no name calling and nothing is getting out of hand.

Agreed.

FallNAngel

04-22-2005, 06:10 PM

Yes, and 'mags are returned with force from a spring and have a separate on-off, and Ions are returned from force of air pressure and have a "spool bolt" that integrates the on-off. If that makes a difference between the 'cocker and the Ego, then why dosen't it make a difference between a 'mag and an Ion?[/b]

Because the Ion and Mag use the same model to accomplish the same goal. Comparing a cocker and ego is like comparing apples and oranges.. Now if you want to compare an ego and angel or intimidator, that'll work... they all function the same exact way.

No, the Ion is not exactly like the matrix... that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the Ion is similar to the matrix.

I never said it wasn't similiar. I actually said it *WAS* similiar... but the Mag is closer, being that they're both blow forwards.

That's exactly what I'm saying. There is a small difference that separates the two models, and only a small difference. There is a large difference between an Ion and a 'mag.

Large in that one is spring instead of air returned and one is held back by air instead of a sear. Basically, one is held back by spring and sear, the other is by air... everything else is basically the same.

Then you don't understand what I'm saying. The air going into the back of the bolt is not the air in the chamber... it's air from a 4-way:

Ok... but the operating pressure is still going to be pushing forward on the bolt... In a Matrix, the operating pressure doesn't push forward on the bolt.

There's a difference between "is a" and "like a". This whole thing started by Miscue saying that the Ion works like a Matrix. The Ion and Mag are both blow forwards, the Matrix is a spool valve. They function similiar, sure do. They even feel pretty close shooting (at least to me), but I would without a doubt say Ion is closer to a Mag. I mean, it's much easier to describe an Ion by saying "It functions like a mag, except it's held back and returned by air pressure." as opposed to trying to tell how you would have to modify a Matrix to become a blow forward. About the closest similiarity that the Matrix and Ion have, is that they're both fully electropneumatic... that's about it.