HPA/NITRO/COMPRESSED AIR vs. CO2

[Jack & Coke]

I know this topic has been argued over many times in the past. However, I'm curious to hear the opinions of current AO members (2005)...

So, what's AO-2k5's take?

Please vote first, then read these two links...

PRO HPA: http://smakzone.com/Invision/index.php?showtopic=58&st=0

PRO CO2: http://paintmagazine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4017

Of course this is a generalized question... but there are interesting opinions when it comes to issues of consistancy, efficiency, limitations, etc.

[gc82000]

Co2 would be cool for the amount of shots one could get per fill, but cosistancy is what I am looking for. When I was using a mag with Co2 I would get fluctuations from 15-30 fps, but once I switched to HPA it went down to +-5. I dont think you can ask for anything better.

[Jack & Coke]

Co2 would be cool for the amount of shots one could get per fill, but cosistancy is what I am looking for. When I was using a mag with Co2 I would get fluctuations from 15-30 fps, but once I switched to HPA it went down to +-5. I dont think you can ask for anything better.

Now is that the fault of CO2, or the non-CO2-friendly design of the mag valve's built in reg?

You know... not all regs are created equal when it comes to regulating CO2.

[TheTramp]

IMHO the ONLY thing CO2 got going for it is that it's a more energetic gas/liquid. More shots per cubic inch of liquid CO2.

That's it. Perhaps if I lived somewhere where getting CO2 was easy and HPA diffecult then that would be enough but luckly I SCUBA dive so I always have HPA on hand.

As far as the consistancy goes. Any gas that will range between 500psi to 1500psi simply due to the air temp is not a gas I want to count on regulated or not.

[Jack & Coke]

wow... no one voted for CO2 yet?

Where are the Palmerites? ;) j/k

Do you guys think HPA is better just because the "pros" use them?

...or does it have to do with high end electros, with their sensative noids, not liking "dirty air"?

I can see where people with electros are overwhelmingly in favor for HPA, but what about mech users like cockers, sypders, tippys, etc. Does HPA make that much of a performance boost over well regulated CO2?

[TheTramp]

I can see where people with electros are overwhelmingly in favor for HPA, but what about mech users like cockers, sypders, tippys, etc. Does HPA make that much of a performance boost over well regulated CO2?


Like I said, even when I use my A5 I still use air because if it's cold out and I shoot fast there could be only 500psi going into my gun. Not good.

Two more things to consider: With what you would spend on the Palmer Stabilizer, anti siphon, etc you could buy a HPA tank. Also, at least around here (northeast) lots (but not all) of fields have cheap ($5) all day air but you have to buy CO2 each fill.

[hitech]

I voted for HPA, but CO2 isn't that bad. I ran a classic 'mag on CO2 with a Palmer Stab. and it ran fine. However, the eMag just isn't going to use CO2 very well. And CO2 just has to many problems when exceeding 10bps.

[trains are bad]

It's a bad poll. I didn't vote.

Co2 is better than HPA

HPA is better than CO2

both are true, in different circumstances

There are some ways in which CO2 is far superior to HPA. I prefer to run CO2 whenever it is better than HPA.

Overally, HPA gives better results across a wider range of platforms, with minimal tweaking or knowledge.

Despite CO2s reputation as a propellent for Noobs, it is my opinion that it is the more 'high performance' or 'advanced' propellent...you have to know what you are doing. Whereas anybody can screw a hpa tank in thier spyder and go play.

I love CO2.

[CoolHand]

I voted for CO2, just so it would have some votes.

I use CO2 in all my markers, even the Alias.

That said, when I know I'm going to be spending the day slinging paint at a decent ROF (and I'm at a field with HPA fills), then I swap to HPA and retune. And that's just so I don't freeze my hand to the vert reg.

My cocker loves CO2, never chills, and never spikes. Imps and Shockers were made to run off the stuff, and the Alias is LP enough to get along with it just fine. My classic mag does OK with CO2, but I haven't played with it in so long I doubt it even remembers what the stuff tastes like.

You just have to have a brain to use CO2.

:headbang: Rocking the CO2! :shooting:

[Jack & Coke]

Good posts!

TAB, I agree there are different situations where I would pick CO2 over HPA, but if you read the question, I ask:

"Overall, which is better?"

Can you guys name situations where CO2 is better than HPA?

One I could think of is scenerio games where there can be huge fill lines, not to mention sometime you can only get 2000-3000 psi fills (wasting the max cap of your 4500 tank). If you play in these types of games, CO2 would be my choice.

CoolHand brings up an interesting point about HIGH ROF. At 4-8 bps, I'm sure the performance characteristics of CO2 and HPA are negligable. However, at 10-20 bps (ramping boards included), does CO2 match the performance of HPA? Would your regs be able to perform to their max capabilities while freezing?

[Faddy]

I can see where people with electros are overwhelmingly in favor for HPA, but what about mech users like cockers, sypders, tippys, etc. Does HPA make that much of a performance boost over well regulated CO2?

I use a stock 2k cocker and I can tell you HPA is much better. Although it runs alright on CO2 with anti-siphon (never ran it without anti-siphon), when I tried HPA the difference was hugely noticable. I went from have chrono fluctuations of +-20-30fps on anti-siphon CO2, to +-7fps fluctuations. All things being equal, consistancy is the key to accuracy.

I will note that I may be a bit biased. It's actually cheaper and easier to get HPA where I live, and the summer temp here rarely goes above 70 degrees (It reached 83 last summer, and it was the hottest it has been here in about 10 years). Average temp you're looking at mid 40's. Cold + CO2 = Bad Juju.

[CoolHand]

Good posts!
CoolHand brings up an interesting point about HIGH ROF. At 4-8 bps, I'm sure the performance characteristics of CO2 and HPA are negligable. However, at 10-20 bps (ramping boards included), does CO2 match the performance of HPA? Would your regs be able to perform to their max capabilities while freezing?

Yes, most good regs will be just as good with frost all over them as they are at room temp, at least if they are lubed up well that is.

I have shot the Alias at a sustained ROF of ~13 bps (which is about all I can muster without cheating), for a whole hopper, with no noticable drop off. BUT my hand was securely frozen to the reg when I was done, and upon its removal, I left behind a sizable chunk of callus. :rofl: Gotta learn to wear gloves I guess.

Same thing with the Imp, and the Shocker. I guess what I am driving at, is that my firsthand experience shows that the old and new MaxFlo regs, and the BL Torpedo reg still do their jobs even when cold to the point of gathering frost.

I can't really say anything for certain about other regs, but anything of a similar design should perform in a similar manner (Palmer's Stabilizer, AKA Sidewinder, 2Liter, etc).

I should also note that these systems are double regulated. I've got a MaxFlo bottle first in line, so the vert reg isn't seeing any liquid (or very little).

[NoForts4Me]

I've never run HPA, so I voted for CO2. I do not have easy access to HPA, and have two 20lb bulk CO2 tanks and a fill station. Plus, I've "Palmerized" my pump!

[GT]

I am seriously considering going back to co2. All you need is a good reg and you get alot more shots and compared to n2 the entire setup weighs alot less.

When I had my eclipse shocker it was not uncommon for me to get triples or quads at the chrono with white box field paint. Cant beat a max flow, winder, stab with a stick.

[vonort]

I've yet to find HPA 12grams so.. I guess I have to say C02.

[Jack & Coke]

:rofl:

[Kallahan]

CO2 is not an ideal gas, it does not behave in relativly predictable ways, while HPA is. If you take a certain mass of air, and put it in a certain volume, at a certain temperature, you can relativly easly figure out what kind of presure it is exerting. CO2 however, you have to worry about wether it is turning to liquid or solid because of its wierd boiling/melting points, Solid CO2 (dry ice) is so weird that at room temp it changes directly from a solid to a gas, it's liquid form is seen only under pressure.

While CO2 can get more shots off a tank due to it being a dense liquid under pressure, that change from liquid to gas doesn't allow for the ideal gas laws to predict its attributes accuratly. HPA doesn't have this problem, it takes extreme pressure to turn the mostly nitrogen/oxygen mixture of air into a liquid, far more pressure than any painball or scuba tank can withstand, thus no change from liquid to gas and the ideal gas laws apply all of the time. Which allows for far greater consistancy, and much faster recharge time.

[SAW]

I've yet to find HPA 12grams so.. I guess I have to say C02.
Woohoo!

7 shots off a HPA 12-gram! :)

[Lohman446]

This is interesting - almost comparable to the diesel gas debate. Diesel has a lot of things going for it, but gas is used because it is easier.

This CO2 not working predictably I don't think is accurate. I think its more an inability to predict. I mean CO2 is always CO2, it should perform in the same predicatable manner if we consider all outside variables. Perhaps its time to design a marker / reg / expansion chamber combo with today's technology to fire CO2 specifically. Maybe its possible to use it in liquid form better? Unfortunatly I do not have the mechanical knowledg to really get into how it would be done to get much further than that.

But CO2 does have some good things going for it. When you get CO2 you are getting 99.99% CO2. When you are getting compressed air you are getting a variable of whatever is in the air in that area. Is it possible that "polluted" HPA could perform oddly.

I would think because CO2 has less variables in composition it may be possible to make a system designed to work of CO2 that would be more stable in velocity than HPA.

[CoolHand]

CO2 is not an ideal gas, it does not behave in relativly predictable ways, while HPA is. If you take a certain mass of air, and put it in a certain volume, at a certain temperature, you can relativly easly figure out what kind of presure it is exerting. CO2 however, you have to worry about wether it is turning to liquid or solid because of its wierd boiling/melting points, Solid CO2 (dry ice) is so weird that at room temp it changes directly from a solid to a gas, it's liquid form is seen only under pressure.

While CO2 can get more shots off a tank due to it being a dense liquid under pressure, that change from liquid to gas doesn't allow for the ideal gas laws to predict its attributes accuratly. HPA doesn't have this problem, it takes extreme pressure to turn the mostly nitrogen/oxygen mixture of air into a liquid, far more pressure than any painball or scuba tank can withstand, thus no change from liquid to gas and the ideal gas laws apply all of the time. Which allows for far greater consistancy, and much faster recharge time.

You make it sound as though CO2 is totally unquanitfiable, which is a total load.

It is entirely possible to know what CO2 is going to do at any given state point inside a system.

It is precisely predictable, maybe not by you, but it is possible.

Just because you don't understand it, do not make the assumption that no one does.

The whole recharge argument is BS too. If you are talking about solid CO2, verses HPA at tank pressure, then there will be a big difference. Otherwise, not so much.

In normal play, with a CO2 system functioning correctly, you will see no difference in performance. If you do, then your system is not set up properly, or you are using a mag or older Angel. Simple as that.

EDIT: Now, that is not to say that HPA isn't markedly easier to set up on most markers. But Easier /= Better However, even the worst set up HPA system will be better than a poorly set up CO2 system. IE CO2 isn't idiot proof, and while HPA is not totally idiot proof, it is much less demanding that CO2, and therefore easier to get right.

[Maggot6]

If :name: jumped off a bridge would you>
Tom kaye jumped off a bridge, so I did too...

[MonsterMag]

Co2 is for the people who dont want to spend more than 25 bucks on a tank :rofl:

[SAW]

Co2 is for the people who dont want to spend more than 25 bucks on a tank :rofl:
Last I checked, most NEW Co2 tanks are more than that. The tanks that are less than $25 usually aren't worth it IMO.

[CoolHand]

Co2 is for the people who dont want to spend more than 25 bucks on a tank :rofl:

Generalizations are for people who don't like to think. :rofl:

[SAW]

Coolhand 1000

EMB 0

[MonsterMag]

look at the Count :tard:

[SAW]

look at the Count :tard:
What could you possibly mean by that?

[bleachit]

I like my Co2, from what I hear HPA is hard to come by where Im from... I play rec woods all day.. so I pack a couple CO2 tanks... I get more shots than with HPA, can carry more tanks and its cheaper. The only time it becomes a problem is during the colder months.. thats when I bring out the stock tippy 98 (not custom) and co2 problems solved. In the summer the temp. gets up in the 80's and 90's at times, so co2 problems are non existent. In the event the temp is lower, I have my palmers stab.

palmers stab + 2 20 oz tanks > 68ci 3000 psi (approximate price comparison)

[MonsterMag]

What could you possibly mean by that?

:rolleyes:

HPA / Nitro / Compressed Air 61 votes (91.04%)
Co2 6 votes (8.96%)

errrh :tard:

[GT]

:rolleyes:

HPA / Nitro / Compressed Air 61 votes (91.04%)
Co2 6 votes (8.96%)

errrh :tard:


That's called, "buying in to the hype!"



boooo yaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!! :shooting: :dance:

[SAW]

:rolleyes:

HPA / Nitro / Compressed Air 61 votes (91.04%)
Co2 6 votes (8.96%)

errrh :tard:
Where in my post did I discount those numbers?

[teufelhunden]

Where in my post did I discount those numbers?


Don't worry about it, it's EMB. It's not worth the wear and tear on your keyboard to reply to him.

[SAW]

Don't worry about it, it's EMB. It's not worth the wear and tear on your keyboard to reply to him.
Good call.

[HarrysSon]

theres no match between co2 and compressed air/nitrogen
comp.air/nitrogen is overall the best as u can see on the poll :D :headbang: :dance:

[Lohman446]

theres no match between co2 and compressed air/nitrogen
comp.air/nitrogen is overall the best as u can see on the poll :D :headbang: :dance:

Doesn't prove its the best, now I use it but me using it, or a bunch of people on AO beleiving it is the best does not prove it to be the best. There are experts (Palmers) who have well reasoned arguments that disagree with you in some circumstances.