Ions new Competition

[JimmyBeam]

Well DYE is jumping on the "low priced high end marker" bandwagon and is coming out with a marker with the same price range and features as the Ion. So all you SP haters can have your inexpensive marker too.

http://img170.exs.cx/img170/9774/b8admc4ks.jpg

[Conversekidz]

Is it a DMC?

as in DMCheap...hahaha

but that looks awsome....can't want to see it.

[MadPSIence]

hey at least it's not as ugly as the ION. I'm still gonna moan and ***** because of how ramping guns are the new thing..

[Chronobreak]

what if we hate dye too :ninja:

btw worse pic possible(i cant see half the gun)..maybe they wanted it that way

well first impressions ide say looks better than an ion

ion=the saturn of p-ball guns :p

price, specs etc ?

LOL there goes electro prices sinking even more :rofl:

[JimmyBeam]

this is the first im hearing about it, ill post more pics as i find them

[gc82000]

Is it a DMC?

as in DMCheap...hahaha

but that looks awsome....can't want to see it.

It stands for Dye Matrix Composite, But I like DaMn Cheap

[SpecialBlend2786]

Looks like spool-valved markers are getting cheaper by the month!

[JimmyBeam]

uhh...thats not by BLAST. The Aphix is basically an AIM Intimidator. An Intimidator made with AIM parts instead of Bob Long parts. About as far from BLAST as it gets ;)

ok...well i got the wrong info then.....i'll change it

[Conversekidz]

It stands for Dye Matrix Composite, But I like DaMn Cheap


For some reason Dye and Cheap don't go together in my mind.

[MadPSIence]

say goodbye to paintball. now the entire market of kids buying near 300 dollar guns like tippmans PMI's system x's even top notch spyders are gonna be sucking down these new ramping cheater guns.

wow the sport's gone to hell.

[MadPSIence]

DMC = Destructive Marketing Crap

[SpecialBlend2786]

http://www.dyematrix.com/

flash intro w/ it

[BD_Paintball]

say goodbye to paintball. now the entire market of kids buying near 300 dollar guns like tippmans PMI's system x's even top notch spyders are gonna be sucking down these new ramping cheater guns.

wow the sport's gone to hell.


They are just using what is available to them. The sport is evolving. i dont have ramper but i dont think they are making the sport "go to hell" use what is available that will help you.

[MadPSIence]

they are making guns so advanced that it's gonna turn paintball into spray and pray. eventually one trigger pull will equal like 20 balls in one second and that will be the game. everyone will own a ramping *** gun and cheat.

just because it's available that doesn't mean it should be used. About 1000+ nukes are available in the US but they don't get used.

[JimmyBeam]

they are making guns so advanced that it's gonna turn paintball into spray and pray. eventually one trigger pull will equal like 20 balls in one second and that will be the game. everyone will own a ramping *** gun and cheat.

just because it's available that doesn't mean it should be used. About 1000+ nukes are available in the US but they don't get used.

it was gonna happen eventually

[magman007]

PSI, look you are reading too much into this. yes its crap the ion comes with ramping standard, but it isnt to be used on rec fields, its For psp stuff only. and for showing yor friends, look at me, im an attention whore.

Atleast rebound is easy to test for.

I doubt this will come with ramping stock, no matrix does, and i dont think dye will start.

guns are finally costing what they should. you should be happy. more people getting into the sport, and mor epeople becomming competitive faster, because they have markers that can compete.

calm down

[BD_Paintball]

PSI That’s different, nukes... come on get real. This is a game, if you can get any advantage you should use it of you will not be able to compete unless you have really really good skill/techniques. Like in baseball when aluminum bats came out people started to use them b/c they can hit it farther. So that’s cheating b/c they used the latest technology. Or in any sport if something comes out with new technology that will help you win I would use it or you will be left in the dust

[CrimsonGhost]

Cool! Nice to see new markers coming out worth taking a look at.,,,and ones I can buy 2 and 3 at a pop and still be under the price range of an Uber marker.

Cant wait to see more about this...or I ll just pick one up the day they come out:)

[JimmyBeam]

i'll probably get one to go along with my ion

[MadPSIence]

i heard about the DMC before the ION was even a rumor.. but I knew nothing about it and still don't. Hopefully it isn't an ION clone.. and if it is I hope they make it a non-cheater gun.

[magman007]

rogue, that is the rumor on pbn, but it doesnt seem to make sense. dye is not WDP

[Skoad]

start the rumor buggy!


there is ZERO info released on this thing, theres talk that its going to be more expensive than a DM5, or ion price, or dm4 price.....noone knows!

i suggest waiting for more info until claiming ion competition

[MadPSIence]

more detail..

[jewie27]

Dye better watch out so they don't get sued by the Nazis.(SP) What if they claim they were the first to come out with a low cost - high performance marker. LOL

[Lohman446]

Dye better watch out so they don't get sued by the Nazis.(SP) What if they claim they were the first to come out with a low cost - high performance marker. LOL

Please explain how you compare a company operating in a capitalistic society to the Nazi third reich? I'm curious.

[minimag03]

I hope the whole plastic gun thing doesn't catch on with other markers. I would bring the over all quality down.

[Ion owner]

wow i have an ion and it's nice , but this thing looks nice. can you get more pics?

[MadPSIence]

Smart Parts Press Release: "We now hold the US patent # _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ for the low cost hi-performance paintball marker"

DYE "Shucks.."

[JaredMeier]

all of this talk is a little premature. but personally - ultralite barrel(proto doesnt have), sculpted integrated on/off(proto also doesnt even have), rubberneck no-rise, an (arguably) more beautiful-than-a-dm5-uber-elegant silver/black body = not cheap. i think this will be expensive.

edit:and probably extremely light.

[manike]

Looks interesting... I wonder what the price will be?...

[VAballer]

PSI, look you are reading too much into this. yes its crap the ion comes with ramping standard, but it isnt to be used on rec fields, its For psp stuff only. and for showing yor friends, look at me, im an attention whore.

Atleast rebound is easy to test for.

I doubt this will come with ramping stock, no matrix does, and i dont think dye will start.

guns are finally costing what they should. you should be happy. more people getting into the sport, and mor epeople becomming competitive faster, because they have markers that can compete.

calm down

I concur...chill out people.

[Lohman446]

Someone else raised the point - Dye has never tried to be an economy brand, and this appears to have features the proto does not. Maybe there trying to borrow off the Glock image, and the weight savings of composites, and go higher end

[Miscue]

<A href="http://images.hasbro.com/supersoaker/movies/Soakertag.mpeg">Video Preview</A>

[MedicDVG]

Not CHEAP at all.. looks like this is going to be a limited edition Matrix with the composite body. Pre-orders are popping up over the net at $1699.... that aint cheap.
http://www.firstcallpaintball.com/products/2226.html

[bull]

The funny thing is that I have heard every argument, about the how cheaply the ion is made and its a plastic gun, 15 years ago. Except it was not the ion they were talking about, it was the Glock. Now glock is known as one of the best, most reliable, most rugged guns around. HHHHMMMMM ;)

[jewie27]

Please explain how you compare a company operating in a capitalistic society to the Nazi third reich? I'm curious.


There's a difference between Capitalism and a Monopoly. You tell me what SP is doing in the electro market...





Let's see...

Eclipse has to pay a fee for every E-Bladed 'cocker sold...

AKA was put outta business, which elminated a competitor for Smart Parts...

They tried to sue WGP....

SP=Greed

Don't get me wrong here, they make great products. From their AA barrels to the Shocker, I like them all.

[MonsterMag]

Dye ran out of numbers so they went to letters :D

[teufelhunden]

There's a difference between Capitalism and a Monopoly. You tell me what SP is doing in the electro market...





Let's see...

Eclipse has to pay a fee for every E-Bladed 'cocker sold...

AKA was put outta business, which elminated a competitor for Smart Parts...

They tried to sue WGP....

SP=Greed

Don't get me wrong here, they make great products. From their AA barrels to the Shocker, I like them all.


So, Nazis=monopolies?

And for the record, SP is nowhere near monopolizing the market. Generally, companies begin to get concerned at about 60% market share. No way SP is near that.

[NigelF]

So, Nazis=monopolies?

And for the record, SP is nowhere near monopolizing the market. Generally, companies begin to get concerned at about 60% market share. No way SP is near that.


You can call it what you will, I'm not interested. Smart Parts made a buisness move that it seems to have benefited from. However, in my eyes it was not in the spirit of advancing the sport. And certainly not in the spirit of good will or cooperation. I understand that they are running a buisness, but all the same, I will not be purchasing anything from Smart Parts. They made their choice and I made mine. If you're indifferent, or like SP, I dont mind, thats your choice. Flame me for it if you want, but I will not support them.


Nigel F

[JaredMeier]

I think everyone is entitled to their own opinions on the matter.

[alouba]

ummm
that gun is gonna cost 1700
http://www.firstcallpaintball.com/products/2226.html
but it might be a scam....might

[teufelhunden]

You can call it what you will, I'm not interested. Smart Parts made a buisness move that it seems to have benefited from. However, in my eyes it was not in the spirit of advancing the sport. And certainly not in the spirit of good will or cooperation. I understand that they are running a buisness, but all the same, I will not be purchasing anything from Smart Parts. They made their choice and I made mine. If you're indifferent, or like SP, I dont mind, thats your choice. Flame me for it if you want, but I will not support them.


Nigel F


At least you aren't running around calling SP Nazis and waving an SP->Swastika avatar.

And for the record, business moves generally aren't in then spirit of helping other people out ;)

[JaredMeier]

ummm
that gun is gonna cost 1700
http://www.firstcallpaintball.com/products/2226.html
but it might be a scam....might

it also came out the EXACT night (tonight) that all this DMC talk erupted on the forums. and it "also" has the same creased magazine ad image that has been floating around. but i know nothing about firstcallpaintball, so I have no idea. but I doubt it is the real deal.

[SpecialBlend2786]

Dye better watch out so they don't get sued by the Nazis.(SP) What if they claim they were the first to come out with a low cost - high performance marker. LOL

not gonna happen. SP and Dye are buddies, remember?

Dye owns the spool valve and matrix platforms I believe, they let SP use the spool valve and SP doesn't sue them and everyone is happy or something...


sculpted integrated on/off(proto also doesnt even have),


yeah, first thing i saw that would prove that the marker is NOT a lower end model


<A href="http://images.hasbro.com/supersoaker/movies/Soakertag.mpeg">Video Preview</A>

i hate you

[Enemy]

yeah dye and cheap!! thats a good one and thanks for the vid miscue those guys were throwing ropes!! :shooting: :bounce: :cuss:

[Teamslayer76]

I heard a rumor that this marker isnt a $300 marker.

Its completely the opposite, and is going to be more expensive than the DM5.

Only a rumor...lets see if its true :confused:


I heard the same. But either way it looks sweet. I really got sell my nerve before I can't......hate it sooo freaking much...

Also about FirstcallPaintball they are trustworth. I ocasionally purchase cheap stuff from them. When they have mega ultra sales.

[alouba]

ummm
that gun is gonna cost 1700
http://www.firstcallpaintball.com/products/2226.html
but it might be a scam....might

jsh.....no one pays attention to what i say.....

[BD_Paintball]

jsh.....no one pays attention to what i say.....

i really dont think that firstcallpaintball would scam anyone. its a good site to order stuff off. not a scam. its like saying paintballgear.com is trying to scam people

[Lohman446]

There's a difference between Capitalism and a Monopoly. You tell me what SP is doing in the electro market...

Let's see...

Eclipse has to pay a fee for every E-Bladed 'cocker sold...

AKA was put outta business, which elminated a competitor for Smart Parts...

They tried to sue WGP....

SP=Greed

Don't get me wrong here, they make great products. From their AA barrels to the Shocker, I like them all.

Let me get soem facts straight here. Eclipse signed an agreement with SP to produce electronic grip frames. The exact terms of this agreement are unkown to most anyone but SP and Eclipse. We do not know if it is a per product fee, a yearly fee, or a one time fee.

They tried to sue WGP?? - I don't recall SP sueing K2, considering that the Worrblade was made by Eclipse and with Eclipses consent I don't think that is accurate.

AKA was put outta business? AKA chose to quit producing markers that they beleived a court would rule infringed on a patent. They did not go out of business.

So, we have several manufacturers still producing electronic markers with no threat of legal action against them: Dye, BLAST, Planet Eclipse, K2. To the best of my knowledge there has been no legal action against Kingman. WDP is still producing markers after a court ruled that they had rights to produce under current patent law. PMI is producing markers at this point with only minimal legal action against the Evil Pimp if I recall, and understand I don't have knowledge of that.

Looking around me I would guess that SP controls less than 30% of the market - understand I do not have actual quantative numbers on that, its a rough estimate and I figured high, I think. Please explain to me how the current enviroment that SP markets under is a monopoly. How does a monopoly, even if it existed, compares in to the human rights violations of historic signifigance and totalitarism of the Third Reich and the Nazi regime? I would label what SP has done recently as mildy agressive protection of established intellectual and patent rights. And yes I would consider it mild compared to other industries.

[Lohman446]

Let me illustrate two arguments, and you can tell me why I think one is better than the other. The arguments, the points, and my humble opinion of them.


Dye better watch out so they don't get sued by the Nazis.(SP) What if they claim they were the first to come out with a low cost - high performance marker. LOL

:tard: - argument based on knee jerk reaction and use of inappropriate historical reference. Comparing non-violent market competition to the Nazi government that committed autrocities of historic level is just :tard: . It is also hurtful to the victims of the holocaust and trivializes the suffering they, or there ancestors, endured.


You can call it what you will, I'm not interested. Smart Parts made a buisness move that it seems to have benefited from. However, in my eyes it was not in the spirit of advancing the sport. And certainly not in the spirit of good will or cooperation. I understand that they are running a buisness, but all the same, I will not be purchasing anything from Smart Parts. They made their choice and I made mine. If you're indifferent, or like SP, I dont mind, thats your choice. Flame me for it if you want, but I will not support them.

Considered opinion. I would disagree with it and assert that the evidence used to come to this conclussion was likely not fully considered, inaccurate, or spun I would admit readily how that conclusion could be come up with. I think its outside of accurate, but readily allow that this is at least an argument based on what someone truly beleives and at least a defendable position. In other words, while I disagree with the statement I can see how one could reach that conclusion and admit that it is a reasonably logical conclusion.

[Glickman]

yay lets go spend 1700 on a "plastic" paintball gun that people were *female doging* over $300!!!

[felony]

all of this talk is a little premature. but personally - ultralite barrel(proto doesnt have), sculpted integrated on/off(proto also doesnt even have), rubberneck no-rise, an (arguably) more beautiful-than-a-dm5-uber-elegant silver/black body = not cheap. i think this will be expensive.

edit:and probably extremely light.


i would have to agree.

eyes also look like those on the dm4/dm5, not something cheaper like the pm.

prices for markers are already low as it is... i had my dm4 spiderman with matching cp kit (two bores) and tadao for sale. some fool offered 600 as a serious cash offer.

[VAballer]

I think this should be a mid-priced gun. It looks like DYE is doing something like the ION, composite body. With over 10k IONs sold and another 5k or so on backorder, why not. More and more companies should make inexpensive guns as an alternative to their flagship guns, DYE shouldn't be any different.

[GT]

ion comes with ramping standard, but it isnt to be used on rec fields,


300 bucks for a ramping "tourney" gun that has software for tourneys only and you expect it to be used only there? I think the worst, "techno cheats" I have ever witnessed were at rec events.

gt

[CKY_Alliance]

[QUOTE=Lohman446]Let me illustrate two arguments, and you can tell me why I think one is better than the other. The arguments, the points, and my humble opinion of them.



:tard: - argument based on knee jerk reaction and use of inappropriate historical reference. Comparing non-violent market competition to the Nazi government that committed autrocities of historic level is just :tard: . It is also hurtful to the victims of the holocaust and trivializes the suffering they, or there ancestors, endured.QUOTE]

Are you ****tying me It is hurtful to the victims and that they or their ancestors endured.Wow my ancestors endured slavery but it doesnt affect me people that play that card are full of ****!

Back on subject

Maybe firstcall is putting up the picture they can get and taking orders even though they dotn have them? Kinda like a pre order and then shipping them out as soon as they get them.Its a possibility or maybe they already have them.

[Lohman446]

Are you ****tying me It is hurtful to the victims and that they or their ancestors endured.Wow my ancestors endured slavery but it doesnt affect me people that play that card are full of ****! .

And if I compared modern day unionized labor such as the employment contracts of GM line workers to slavery would it not be triviliazing slavery?

[teufelhunden]

Maybe firstcall is putting up the picture they can get and taking orders even though they dotn have them? Kinda like a pre order and then shipping them out as soon as they get them.Its a possibility or maybe they already have them.

Uh, yeah, that's been determined.

[SCpoloRicker]

The funny thing is that I have heard every argument, about the how cheaply the ion is made and its a plastic gun, 15 years ago. Except it was not the ion they were talking about, it was the Glock. Now glock is known as one of the best, most reliable, most rugged guns around. HHHHMMMMM ;)

Uh, no. Glocks have been pulled from just about every P.D. out there, as they have atrocious jamming problems with misfeeds. When you practice clearing with a Glock, you have to use a plastic training round. Why? Because using brass fouls the chamber, and requires disassembly.

Oh, and Godwin surrenders, newblars.

[CKY_Alliance]

And if I compared modern day unionized labor such as the employment contracts of GM line workers to slavery would it not be triviliazing slavery?

No becasue they work by choice.Do they not?

[Lohman446]

No becasue they work by choice.Do they not?

The differences are so vast between modern day workers (the GM example) and slavery that to compare slavery to these workers... which is not even close trivializes the suffering that the victims of slavery endured. Even this I'm comparing workers to workers, but you get the idea on what I mean I assume.

To compare the Nazi goverment to SP (its not even comparing workers to workers, but again just go with it) is so far off that it trivializes the sufferings of the victims of the holocaust.

Do you understand the point I am trying to make? I am in no way trying to triviliaze those sufferings, and to draw an anology to GM workers and slavery or SP to the Nazi regime is :tard: . You don't have to agree with that last thing, as long as you understand what I am trying to say.

[VFX_Fenix]

You can call it what you will, I'm not interested. Smart Parts made a buisness move that it seems to have benefited from. However, in my eyes it was not in the spirit of advancing the sport. And certainly not in the spirit of good will or cooperation. I understand that they are running a buisness, but all the same, I will not be purchasing anything from Smart Parts. They made their choice and I made mine. If you're indifferent, or like SP, I dont mind, thats your choice. Flame me for it if you want, but I will not support them.


Nigel F

No, it was done in the spirit of protecting their "intelectual" property which is the entire reason for the Patent system here in the US and other palces in the world. That was a business move not a sport move. Now as to wether or not it was their property to protect is another issue. The problem is actually coming from the patent office itself, as I see it anyway, in that the office isn't issuing patents for single items anymore, but broad swaths of items.

E.G. You build a toaster that uses 3 coils and makes a triangular pattern and you get a patent for that design. Someone else comes along and builds a toaster that uses 4 coils that are parrallel to eachother and gets a patent for that. These permutations of the same toaster concept continue with each company/individual making a slightly different coil arrangement and this is how things generally worked in the past. Now the patent office will give you a patent for "a toaster", it doesn't matter what it looks like on the inside or the outside, how many coils it has, etc. etc. etc. Someone just got a patent for this broad and sweeping concept of "a toaster". Smart Parts has been issued such a patent and they've taken advantage of this fault/loop hole in the patent system, not unlike using a Reactive Trigger, or Turbo, or Debounce, or Ramping to gain an advantage while working within the limitations of the system.

As for the Glock issue - Consider that the Austrian company also in the "development" of it's .40 S&W model didn't take the time to design a gun around the caliber it would be shooting, They simply took a 9mm and bored it out to accept a 10mm round which leads to some interesting problems and "explosive" dissasembly. I believe that H&K would be a better example here.

For the Labor Union issues - In this instance a Labor Union the Union has some sway as to how things are run and they also have federal protection in the event that they choose not to work (strike) for what ever reason. If you or anyone else signs a contract stating employment for X days/months/years/etc. you are obligated to work while that contract is still in tact. However this is FAR from slavery since a slave would not recieve compensation for their work (i.e. $$$).

[NigelF]

Lohman, I know I dont know all the details of the SP situation. If you are aware of anyplace I could learn more about it, I would be interested in doing some reading. But what has trickled down to me so far doesnt rub me quite the right way. I dont hate smart parts, I would just feel a little slimy making a big purchase from them right now (not that I'm in a position to do so anyway... but thats another story that no one wants to hear).


NigelF

[VFX_Fenix]

NIgel - Check out the Patent Office web page, look for patents issued to Smart Parts or William Gardner. Actually some interesting reading if you like legal jargon, pay particular attention to the "touch trigger" patent which is the one that sort of kicked off SP's big legal move.

[Lohman446]

Lohman, I know I dont know all the details of the SP situation. If you are aware of anyplace I could learn more about it, I would be interested in doing some reading. But what has trickled down to me so far doesnt rub me quite the right way. I dont hate smart parts, I would just feel a little slimy making a big purchase from them right now (not that I'm in a position to do so anyway... but thats another story that no one wants to hear).


NigelF

I think what trickles down becomes very two sided depending on your gut feeling of it.

For instance - AKA ceasing to produce electronic markers
Position A) AKA ceased production on a maker that clearly violated an issued US patent after being issued a cease and desist order by that patents holder. AKA's production of such a product was infringing on the right of the owner to profity fully from there intellectual property.
Position B) SP forced AKA to quit producing electronic markers because of greed

Both would be somewhat accurate representations of what it sounds like happened (understanding that very few of us have all the info and specifics).

I disagree with your position - however I fully acknowledge the validity of the conclusions you made. Even if it were not valid, this is a free market, you have no obligation to purchase a marker from anyone with or without a good reason. I was using your argument to demonstrate what I considered a valid argument for discussion versus some rather less useful knee jerk and inaccurate "sound byte".

Your arguments were well reasoned conclusions - which I disagree with but I understand. Comparing SP to Nazis is just :tard:

[yakitori]

<A href="http://images.hasbro.com/supersoaker/movies/Soakertag.mpeg">Video Preview</A>

thats freakin hilarious miscue. I got a good laugh out of that. Sad, but lots of ballers look like that.

[CKY_Alliance]

The differences are so vast between modern day workers (the GM example) and slavery that to compare slavery to these workers... which is not even close trivializes the suffering that the victims of slavery endured. Even this I'm comparing workers to workers, but you get the idea on what I mean I assume.

To compare the Nazi goverment to SP (its not even comparing workers to workers, but again just go with it) is so far off that it trivializes the sufferings of the victims of the holocaust.

Do you understand the point I am trying to make? I am in no way trying to triviliaze those sufferings, and to draw an anology to GM workers and slavery or SP to the Nazi regime is :tard: . You don't have to agree with that last thing, as long as you understand what I am trying to say.

Yea i see.Just the whole o no cant hurt any ones feeling crap gets on my nerves (nothign against you,just in general) and thats how i took the not to offend the people and ancestors thing.
The whole smart parts are nazis is a pretty retarted analogy like you said.

[PBX Ronin 23]

At the price that DYE is asking for this new gun.....you can only consider it an entry-level gun if your first car was a Ferrari and you wallpaper your kitchen with $100 bills.

Kinda hard to see anything coming from DYE being "cheap".

[slade]

nice... but as i said with the ion its likely to have reliability issues. actually if you think about it, it HAS to have reliability issues, or quality issues at least (bad trigger, shell breaks, etc), because then thered be no point in buying a DM5/proto (cept if someone is just elitist or REALLY wants it to be aluminum), so dye would be killing its own products. it looks a lot better than the ion though, i might check it out... probably wont buy it though. maybe ill get a freestyle once these new cheap spool valve guns cause the price to drop even more :D

i definately want to see another pic though, cause from what i can see it looks good and the pic was taken fairly well, but half the marker isnt visable.


I heard a rumor that this marker isnt a $300 marker.

Its completely the opposite, and is going to be more expensive than the DM5.

Only a rumor...lets see if its true :confused:
definately not true... its the dye matrix COMPOSITE. i assume that means composite plastic, thus cheap. im guessing they made it to compete with the ion. well not guess, i can say that with almost 100% certainty.

*edit* whoa!! my bad, thats what i get for not reading the whole thread before posting... damn $1700?? i think dye is going a little bit overboard here...

[thump]

and just how much will this new Dye marker cost,,,well i found one site that says $1699.00 but i dont know if its right or not...
linky
http://www.skanline.com/products/2226.html
and
http://www.firstcallpaintball.com/products/2226.html

[bull]

Uh, no. Glocks have been pulled from just about every P.D. out there, as they have atrocious jamming problems with misfeeds. When you practice clearing with a Glock, you have to use a plastic training round. Why? Because using brass fouls the chamber, and requires disassembly.

Oh, and Godwin surrenders, newblars.

While Iam not one who runs around saying the Glock is the ultimate hundgun, what planet are you from. Glock is one of the most rugged and reliable weapons platforms out there. No police agencies that I know have given up the glock, including mine. I know one local agency that leaves a Glock hanging in a tree and shoots it with every academy class that comes through. That gun has never failed. I would like to know what agencies you are talking about or who told you this.

Also how does brass foul a chamber? Gunpowder residue will foul, dirt will foul, but brass is just brass. Have you ever seen a handgun? Do you know what a Glock is. Please provide me with your info because it is wrong.

Where do I get my info..... current firearms instructor in law enforcement, prior law enforcement special operations, certified glock armouer. Like I said the glock is not the perfect pistol (needs a manuel safety and a trigger disconnect) but not because of what you describe.

[CoolHand]

There's a difference between Capitalism and a Monopoly......

There is also a big difference between a capitalist monopoly, and a fascism.

Namely, the former is an economic practice that controls prices through a stranglehold on supply, while the latter is an oppressive form of government, under which all things percieved as weak are stamped out, and all things percieved as strength are encouraged. The latter is also the form of government responsible for the extermination of upwards of 6 million Jews in the 1930's and 40's.

You cannot possibly think that one is comparable to the other.

For the love of all that is good and holy, find another buzz word to label SP with. Calling them Nazi's is overly inflamatory, and blunts the horror of what the real Nazi's did by twisting the definition of the term. There are those in the world that could and should be called Nazi's, but the things you have to do to join their ranks is far beyond simply limiting the choices on the PB marker market.

Call them robber barrons, or whatever you like, but try to at least muster up an insult that has something to do with economics and the free market (or lack thereof).

EDIT: Damn, didn't see there was a whole second page of people saying the same thing. :rofl: Oh well, I'm not the touchy feely type, but I do tire of seeing people change the definition of a term to suit them (or worse yet, use the term not knowing what it means).

On those grounds, I will leave this rant stand. :ninja:

[GT]

I read a great article about sp.

SP=good buisness. What they did was good buisness, they invested in a number of patents and essentailly shut down the compatition. If anyone had an once of buisness sense they would have done the same. Lets not over simplify what a PITA it is to get a patent through.

gt

[barrel break]

I see exactly where this is going (not really, but an idea!).
Dye has no interest in entry level stuff, this is simply another high end god gun. they used composite because it allows for a lighter gun. everyone likes lighter, right?

[Codekevin0403]

ok, i'm pretty sure this marker isn't made to compete with the ion, but it is supposed to compete with the new Angel G7. This is not a low cost marker, it costs $1699. Also, composite in the DMC does not mean plastic, but more along the lines of Aluminum and Titanium. If i find the website where i found this stuff out, i'll post it. But please don't mistake it as the competitor for the Ion, because many people will be extremely dissapointed

[Codekevin0403]

aha i have found it.
plus there's a link to pre-order it.

http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story04817.php

[Ov3rmind]

New DYE Marker coming soon
By Dale Ford
Mar 24, 2005, 20:32

email the editor Email the editor
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view a print friendly version of this page Print friendly version
Submit your news here! Got a scoop/event?

The DMC
A routine search of the internet found that DYE Precsion will be introducing the DMC, which is a composite version of the DM5-series marker from DYE. The "C" stands for Composite, which normally is a reference to plastic-like materials, but in this case the word is that it's more along the lines of a composite of Aluminum and Titanium.

The DMC is priced at $1699, which will put this limited edition DM in the same league as WDP's new super-marker, the G7. Available now for pre-order at selected retailers like www.firstcallpaintball.com

Hm, doesn't sound like Ion competition. Composite aluminum/titanium? Wow.

[CrawforDry]

Please explain how you compare a company operating in a capitalistic society to the Nazi third reich? I'm curious.

I guess you forgot all of the true PAINTBALL companies before smart parts that didn't patent things just to try and crush competetion. If you are so capitalistic you should realize competetion is whats important, not allowing a company to buy the rights to a gun and then patent it as their design and as the 1st one like it especially when WDP had the angel out before the shocker, but not on the market. Bottom line, tons of companies before electros could have patented things and they chose not to, SP will never get buisness from me for their actions.

EDIT as for the nazi reference, its a figure of speech and if you're too slow to get it, theres no other explanation needed as to why you would support SP as a paintball player.

[jewie27]

Let me get soem facts straight here. Eclipse signed an agreement with SP to produce electronic grip frames. The exact terms of this agreement are unkown to most anyone but SP and Eclipse. We do not know if it is a per product fee, a yearly fee, or a one time fee.

They tried to sue WGP?? - I don't recall SP sueing K2, considering that the Worrblade was made by Eclipse and with Eclipses consent I don't think that is accurate.

AKA was put outta business? AKA chose to quit producing markers that they beleived a court would rule infringed on a patent. They did not go out of business.

So, we have several manufacturers still producing electronic markers with no threat of legal action against them: Dye, BLAST, Planet Eclipse, K2. To the best of my knowledge there has been no legal action against Kingman. WDP is still producing markers after a court ruled that they had rights to produce under current patent law. PMI is producing markers at this point with only minimal legal action against the Evil Pimp if I recall, and understand I don't have knowledge of that.

Looking around me I would guess that SP controls less than 30% of the market - understand I do not have actual quantative numbers on that, its a rough estimate and I figured high, I think. Please explain to me how the current enviroment that SP markets under is a monopoly. How does a monopoly, even if it existed, compares in to the human rights violations of historic signifigance and totalitarism of the Third Reich and the Nazi regime? I would label what SP has done recently as mildy agressive protection of established intellectual and patent rights. And yes I would consider it mild compared to other industries.


WDP*

[jewie27]

There is also a big difference between a capitalist monopoly, and a fascism.

Namely, the former is an economic practice that controls prices through a stranglehold on supply, while the latter is an oppressive form of government, under which all things percieved as weak are stamped out, and all things percieved as strength are encouraged. The latter is also the form of government responsible for the extermination of upwards of 6 million Jews in the 1930's and 40's.

You cannot possibly think that one is comparable to the other.

For the love of all that is good and holy, find another buzz word to label SP with. Calling them Nazi's is overly inflamatory, and blunts the horror of what the real Nazi's did by twisting the definition of the term. There are those in the world that could and should be called Nazi's, but the things you have to do to join their ranks is far beyond simply limiting the choices on the PB marker market.

Call them robber barrons, or whatever you like, but try to at least muster up an insult that has something to do with economics and the free market (or lack thereof).

EDIT: Damn, didn't see there was a whole second page of people saying the same thing. :rofl: Oh well, I'm not the touchy feely type, but I do tire of seeing people change the definition of a term to suit them (or worse yet, use the term not knowing what it means).

On those grounds, I will leave this rant stand. :ninja:


why do people take me literally? It's called exaggeration......

[teufelhunden]

Don't be a moron now that you've been backed into a corner.


Oh, and Crawfordry, SP is not a charity. No actual business is a charity. Maybe if Tom Kaye had the business sense to patent HPA use in paintball, AGD wouldn't be in the trouble it's in. Just because you patent something doesn't mean you need to make royalties rediculous. It will also actually ENCOURAGE competition, because it will give people motivation to come up with something better to patent.

Didn't think of that, did you? That's right, you were too busy gulping down anti-SP rhetoric.

[txaggie08]

ignore this i goofed

[Maggot6]

That is the only pic I have seen of it.
My wishful expectations of the DMC...
1.) It will have no ramping
2.) It will be lighter,
3.) It will be 500$ ( so that it is ensured to be a bit more than ION quality, even though I hear ions are well made anyway)
4.) It will have the whole "replace-a-body" feature...
5.) Eyes of course
6.) Some sort of trigger innovation...Although, I have no idea what they would do...

Anyone else have any wishes?(P.S. I was to lazy to read after the first page, if this has been done I will gladly delete this post)..

[matt-o]

its already happened
fixed

[Lohman446]

why do people take me literally? It's called exaggeration......


Maybe if you didn't make the same stupid, and quite possibly hurtful exageration over and over, even after having been called on it, people wouldn't take it literally. Sorry to be blunt but just a thought. Its gotten old, not just because of your doing... but it has gotten old


http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=170721&page=3][/url]
You know how?


They probably made so much money from Eclipse (Eblade) liscensing fees, they lowered the price of the Ion. LOL

Those Nazi's are trying to monopolize on everyone.

[mag88888]

it took people a while to a while to atch on that that is exensive and isnt n cmpitition with the ion. its ediculous!!!!!!!!!! loo =k at that thing, its awesome. thank god somonw figured it out. :dance: my gosh people, get it right.

[Chronobreak]

it took people a while to a while to atch on that that is exensive and isnt n cmpitition with the ion. its ediculous!!!!!!!!!! loo =k at that thing, its awesome. thank god somonw figured it out. :dance: my gosh people, get it right.


hope your not blaming us?

way to yell at people who were given the wrong info

btw how do you make presales of a creased magazine cover? :confused: :tard:

[mag88888]

sorry peeps. your right, that was uncalled for.

[Kallahan]

Composits generaly are formed with layers of plastic. ceramics, and air. They are not cheap, and they are VERY strong and VERY light.

This is going to be a higher price point marker, no doubt.

[Lohman446]

I guess you forgot all of the true PAINTBALL companies before smart parts that didn't patent things just to try and crush competetion. If you are so capitalistic you should realize competetion is whats important, not allowing a company to buy the rights to a gun and then patent it as their design and as the 1st one like it especially when WDP had the angel out before the shocker, but not on the market. Bottom line, tons of companies before electros could have patented things and they chose not to, SP will never get buisness from me for their actions.

EDIT as for the nazi reference, its a figure of speech and if you're too slow to get it, theres no other explanation needed as to why you would support SP as a paintball player.

:rolleyes:

Ready for this explanation. Patenting something and enforcing patents is a business decision. SOmetimes you don't because it could harm you.

Well I respect AGD for not patenting HPA if you don't think this was a considered business decision....

Say they had controlled it - would other manufacturers have made it - woudl it have been accepted into the tournament field. If HPA had never been allowed where would the automag be today, I don't recall them being overly impressive on CO2.

I'm not to slow to get the figure of speech - however I am smart enough to realize its a horrible analogy and a knee jerk reaction. Think of something better and smarter than the Nazi reference

[JAM]

I agree.
I happen to like plastic guns and "plastic" certainly does not = cheap.



While Iam not one who runs around saying the Glock is the ultimate hundgun, what planet are you from. Glock is one of the most rugged and reliable weapons platforms out there. No police agencies that I know have given up the glock, including mine. I know one local agency that leaves a Glock hanging in a tree and shoots it with every academy class that comes through. That gun has never failed. I would like to know what agencies you are talking about or who told you this.

Also how does brass foul a chamber? Gunpowder residue will foul, dirt will foul, but brass is just brass. Have you ever seen a handgun? Do you know what a Glock is. Please provide me with your info because it is wrong.

Where do I get my info..... current firearms instructor in law enforcement, prior law enforcement special operations, certified glock armouer. Like I said the glock is not the perfect pistol (needs a manuel safety and a trigger disconnect) but not because of what you describe.

[Lohman446]

I have heard reports of some agencies giving up the Glock - but I had not heard it being do to a ruggedness issue nor do I have those reports in front of me.

Put a real convenional safety on the Glock and it would be the next pistol I bought - until that point I simply will not buy one. I don't care, I've heard all the arguments about how great the Glock system is, but unless I have a trigger or hammer block safety I'm not buying one.

There an awesome gun, rugged, dependable, and accurate enough for a self defense pistol. I like the idea of polymer, less maintenance etc - I just cannot get over no external safety.

[matt-o]

i really doubt that PDs would drop the glock due to ruggedness issues, i mean the police dont really push the limits of the gun like others might. the gun isnt going to be used very often, if at all, and they arent crawling around the desert or the jungle or anything.

[matt-o]

I heard the same. But either way it looks sweet. I really got sell my nerve before I can't......hate it sooo freaking much...
you couldnt sell nerves used when they first came out

[ApexAZ]

Please explain how you compare a company operating in a capitalistic society to the Nazi third reich? I'm curious.

It's just a figure of speech :)

Anyways, if it's made with plastic, I don't see how it could be more expensive then a dm5.

[ApexAZ]

Hmm, I just read Titanium/Aluminum. Why call it a composite instead of an alloy?

[nt2004]

Hmm, I just read Titanium/Aluminum. Why call it a composite instead of an alloy?
composite sounds cooler?

[Glickman]

then it would be the DMA

then this would happen..

"hey john, you see the new DMA? its awsome!"

not knowing what it is

"oh yea, im gonna buy one when i get home"

john goes home to google "dma" and finds that it stand for the direct marketing association. not wanting to be left out, he orders a telemarketing package.

while telemarketing, he sneezes, and happends to be talking to the president of Kleenex, Hubert Humphery. he says he must come down and do a sneezing commercial.

while doing the commercial he finds a snickers bar. he sees noone near, so he eats it. not knowing its the bar of the famous xena, warrior princess.

she takes him outside, and beats the crap out of him.



dont worry mods, pinky-swear its the only dumb post today :D :rolleyes:


buy a dye matrix alloy, get beat yp by xena, warrior princess.

[JimmyBeam]

just thought I would post a pic of my "plastic" gun

http://aientity.com/uo/modules/ipboard/uploads/post-28-1112066243.jpg

>10 cases and no chops

[Mechanic79]

For some reason Dye and Cheap don't go together in my mind.

Perhaps not, but dye and brasseagle go together in my mind!

[hgryhgryhipo04]

The DMC is not cheap...AT ALL! It is on preorder for 1700$!

[bull]

The glock does have a trigger/hammer safety, it does not have a external safety. The trigger and hammer safety have been tradionaly to stop a weapon from firing that has been dropped. You can throw a glock and it will not go off. My problem is that it you are diarmed of your weapon, and all those macho wannabes that say ths should never happen - don't respond, it takes a non-gun person 1.7 second to fire it where a gun with a external safety takes 19 seconds. The next is a trigger disconnect that disables the trigger if the magazine is removed. Now this used to be standard until someone said how about if Iam reloading, I have one in the chamber, but somebody is charging so I can't fire. I have never heard of this happening in LE. I do know of reports where some one has been about to lose his firearm in a fight and ejected the mag, making it temporarly unable to fire, giving the gun up and going to secondary or some other move, but they saved their life. I have been in a fight and felt the person grab my sidearm, talk about a pucker factor. Luckly I was able to stop the person. Just becuase you have a gun does not always meean you can use it.

[Lohman446]

My problem is that it you are diarmed of your weapon, and all those macho wannabes that say ths should never happen - don't respond, it takes a non-gun person 1.7 second to fire it where a gun with a external safety takes 19 seconds. .

Funny point - its the reason I carry my Taurus with the safety on and the chamber emtpy... by the time somone figures out the safety is on, then figures out the gun is empty, I should have plenty of time to do sometning about it. Granted, should I ever have to use it it might take me an extra second.. but its how I practice too

[bull]

To me a Glock with a trigger disconnect is almost perfect, a glock with a trigger disconnect and a 1911 style safety is the perfect sidearm. There is a company that installs a Glock approved safety, but I can't install it on my departmental weapon.

[SlartyBartFast]

You can throw a glock and it will not go off.

It just breaks. :rofl:

That's why it failed the FBI tests.

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/upgrade-faq.html#ad

In the DEA tests the slide came off the frame and the pistol discharged.

I know, there was an "upgrade". But reading that website makes you think twice about handling a Glock.

[CrimsonGhost]

Lol, Yeah maybe 13 years ago!!! Lol, I carry my G 35 EVERY DAY and have NEVER had an issue with it.( Ive bounced it, kicked it and played "floor hocky" with it on accident,loaded and chambered) So the Glock comment is worthless (the breaking part) esp based on 13 year old info..if we can use 13 year old info( or info thats old anyway)...Mags will be blenders and break paint and the bolt would cut your finger off(cough cough)...and I know thats not the case.

[SlartyBartFast]

Lol, Yeah maybe 13 years ago!!! Lol, I carry my G 35 EVERY DAY and have NEVER had an issue with it.( Ive bounced it, kicked it and played "floor hocky" with it on accident,loaded and chambered) So the Glock comment is worthless (the breaking part) esp based on 13 year old info..if we can use 13 year old info( or info thats old anyway)...Mags will be blenders and break paint and the bolt would cut your finger off(cough cough)...and I know thats not the case.

Yes, but compare AGDs service with Glocks. :wow:

Never a recall always an "upgrade". :eek:

And the Frisbee test failures might be 13 years old, but the Glocks were sold on their strength before the tests.

Nowadays there's still the issue of kBs.

[CrimsonGhost]

...Ok, NOW and then time...Now they are KNOWN to be great weapons and carried by THOUSANDS of PDs, Military,etc people around the world.
Remember that the m16 When they were first out in the field Were unreliable at best. Known to jam at the drop of a hat.
Now, m16 and its cousins (ar,M4 etc) are some of the most sought after and used weapons around the globe(next to the Ak varients)
Now, the glocks are the stuff...13 years ago, You are right ...I wouldnt carry one .
But thats 13 years ago.
Not today.
And Glock has been WONDERFUL with the customer support. I sent my g 19 in for a reworking of the slide(refinnish and such) I had aftermarket stuff on the gun and they didnt say boo about it ...just refinnished it,charged less than the advertised price and ...sent my gun back.
They could have pitched a fit about it having aftermarket stuff, But didnt say anything.

And ALL THE BEST customer support in the world (agd) didnt help the fact while I was sitting on the field my marker was a very pretty soup machine...regardless of how AGD treated me when I sent it in to be fixed or looked at again and again.
I love agd ..dont take this as a slam .

But this is off topic and sorry for that...just trying to rule out the glocks break comparison...didnt sit well with me.

:cheers:

[bull]

Thanks for the info Slarty, this is something I had never seen. I will say though that this was 13 years ago when the pistol was still fairly new (I should know, my chief back then wouldn't let us carry "that new fangled plastic pistol") I do know now that several federal agencies approve the carry of the Glock, to include the FBI. Improvements were made and it is now one of the most rugged pistols out there. One of the local agencies leaves one outside all year (for 6+ years) and fires it with every recruit class and it has never failed. I do know there were several slide flaiures with the bretta in the military (bad metal), that sig-sauer has had to replace many of the springs in their guns because of problems (nice guns, just D*** complicated). out of all the guns I have used in the line of duty the Glock is a great gun, with it being estimated that it accounts for 50% of all police sidearms. Me it I had my choice I would be carrying the S&W 4506, if I was not carrying a glock :)