the industry is depending on you! how many bps?

[FreakBaller12]

So let's pretend for a minute it's up to you to decide how big of a cap, if any there should be on paintball markers. What number would you pick? Why?

[undescriptive]

13 bps I think but most definately true semi..

here's why:

opens up the game a whole load, increases the safety factor and allows the "normal" people to actually play without having their a$$es handed to them on a plate by the guys with $1000+ markers ;)

[CoolHand]

I voted 12, so we can get back to gravity loaders. I don't know about you all, but it chaps my *** to pay $150 for a loader, which is heavy, and in a lot of cases doesn't work right.

Plus, you never used to see broken feednecks until the HALO's 3lb behind came along either.

I also think that 12 bps is an attainable cap with a semiauto marker. Plus, since we could go back to gravity fed only, it would be easy to enforce. Don't need a robot anymore, just a sharp eye to inspect the revys (or reloader II's for you Empire fans) before they go on the field.

That's my $3.50 (pronounced tree-fiddy)'s worth.

[punkncat]

That's my $3.50 (pronounced tree-fiddy)'s worth.

& I said "Monsta-puleeze!"

[Lohman446]

1) increases the safety factor and 2) allows the "normal" people to actually play without having their a$$es handed to them on a plate by the guys with $1000+ markers ;)

While I am interested in your opinion I am curious on these two points.

1) Any quantitative data to support this position?

2) Do you honestly think that rec players, playing against experienced tournament players in speedball would have a remarkably better chance if we lowered the speed of the markers. The two best players I know shoot under 10BPS and rarely go through more than a hopper a game.

[JoshK]

I put 8, and 15....8 would most definatly be for walk on game/open play, and tournys I think are good at 15...but not ramping...you need to be able to actually pull that fast.(which isnt horribly hard...which is why shouldnt be allowed(expecially with a bps cap)

[Chronobreak]

& I said "Monsta-puleeze!"
:rofl:

sry

i think 13s a tad low...even on a mech thats limiting the person potential

i would say 15-17

BUT ENFORE guidlines..alot of these guns can be hit hard enough and the trigger shoots and other things that are illegal but no one follows the standards.

true semi here no 15bps ramping :cuss: after 3 shots... :nono:

[undescriptive]

While I am interested in your opinion I am curious on these two points.

1) Any quantitative data to support this position?

2) Do you honestly think that rec players, playing against experienced tournament players in speedball would have a remarkably better chance if we lowered the speed of the markers. The two best players I know shoot under 10BPS and rarely go through more than a hopper a game.


well, for 1....

yes to a degree, I went over @ the field an copped an extra 5 balls on the FACe (that's right, UNDER the mask) from someone shooting an extra twitchy angel

and for 2...

I end up constantly playing against tourney players @ the rec site, and yes, most of them do just hose paint, so a reduction in paint in the air = more moving chances....

[Shives]

I put 10, but could go to 12 just to agree w/ the majority. I can recall thinking the first Mags were plenty fast, but then again, we were using SL68II's. I agree w/ whoever said we should go back to strict GRAVITY fed markers. I think mech's are plenty fast, and electro's are getting stupid fast. If you can't hit someone w/ 10 shots a second, get off your butt and move to were you can.

Shives

[wanna-b-ballin']

i put 12.
i think it is a good speed just because. nobody really NEEDS to shoot faster; and it would allow everyone with the cheap markers and the expensive markers to compete without really being out-gunned.
i'm thinking that if electros were banned from all fields, that everybody would stop complaining about ramping and such. and it would limit you to shoot about 12 bps and under, depending on how fast you can pull the trigger. the x-valve is an exception though, it has the possibility to shoot faster, but if tuned down, could be equally as fast.

if electros were banned, and x-valves on mech guns were tuned to be really fast, then i bet that mags would become the most popular guns around; just because people want speed.

[50 cal]

I put 12. Let some people start using skill instead of how fast your gun shoots.

[Faddy]

I've always felt 12 was plenty high enough, even back when the first "max BPS" discussions really began to happen in the late 90's. It's amazing to me how fast this sport has gotten. Back in the pump days, with auto-trigger, the best players could put out maybe 3bps, but innacurately. Now, just under 2 decades later, we're pushing the realm of 3 times that amount. I'm still a bit on the fence on the issue. I think 15 is a bit too fast. 10 is a bit slow. I'm all for new technology and advancing the sport, but I also think that the sport is being limited way too much by guns with the ability to shoot so fast. I guess time will tell in the end.

[Chronobreak]

with gravity hoppers rt mags would be next to useless once again.

but atleast now we have lvlX..

how are you planning on limiting mech guns..just curious.

[NoForts4Me]

No limit, true semi only (no ramping, bounce, buffering, etc.) If you are capable of 15, 18 or 20, go for it. Most won't be cabable of more than a sustained 10-15 (not counting short "bursts") so safety takes care of itself.

[HarrysSon]

18 bps is probably good enough, like anyone can shoot faster than that T_T:shooting:

[CoolHand]

how are you planning on limiting mech guns..just curious.

Ah, that's where the gravity fed loaders come in.

Let the marker cycle as fast as it wants to, cheat modes, RT, etc.

Ain't gonna shoot balls faster than they make it into the marker.

Problem solved.

[punkncat]

Oh, on subject I say 15BPS. No ramping or electronic assists of any kind.


The easiest thing for the industry to do would be to outlaw anything other than agitated hoppers. Your marker can be as fast as you want, but you can only use a revi or the like. They will only feed so fast.

[warbeak2099]

I say 20. That's about as high as you can get legally (true semi). The average Joe can do 15 on an electro, but 20 will still throw in some skill to the game. It takes some skill to get up to 20 on true semi. 20 is all you really need too.

[ICP]

I'd say unlimited, AS LONG AS IT IS LEGAL semi only. I think you can have technology be a good thing and progress the sport. But don't take away thetime and effort it takes to get better. ALL ramping,bounce,cheater type things should be eliminated. If you've worked hard enough and long enough that you can get your gun shooting faster than anyone else (legally) you should be able to do it.

Although I do like the unlimited with gravity/agitated loaders. But then I would have to get rid of my Q :(

[johnson88]

^i agree except all loaders should be legal

[Lohman446]

The average Joe can do 15 on an electro,.

I'm not picking on you, I see this all the time and it annoys me. The average person cannot sustain 15BPS for more than a second or two. We keep raising the BPS issues without anyone actually realizing what is being done. Next time your at the field, have the "fast" shooters shoot over a chrono, you will be surprised at the results. Or better yet, soundwave analyze the string if you get a chance.

[hitech]

Ah, that's where the gravity fed loaders come in.


Would that exclude my warp?

[Bolter]

15 bps is what all tournie series are heading towards. Some will allow ramping. Its taking the importance of the gun out of the game and making player skills and teamwork high factors. I think it could be good. 15 seems about right when everyone on th field has 15bps. Huge skill learning curve.

[Dryden]

My vote is for unlimited, because my feeling is it's the buyers right to choose how fast they shoot their marker.

I choose to play games with others where the honored, gentlemans agreement is to not shoot over maybe 6 to 8 bps, in recognition that at extreme ROFs, the first ball to score a hit is likely going to be followed by 15 more balls that are going to hit, and that safety falls between the players' ears, not the marker in their hands. I mean, we're not playing for thousands of dollars, so what is the point in maiming somebody in a 'friendly' game.

In other words, I wouldn't limit someone else's idea of 'fun' for my personal benefit. I'd just choose not to play with people who play that way.

[Eatem Alive]

unlimited, full auto, i don't care...let's just play ball.

[CoolHand]

Would that exclude my warp?

Probably, but a warp with a revy on it is really no faster than a revy on top of the marker.

But just to be safe, I say outlaw them too. :rofl: :ninja: (I'm just messing with ya)

[AGDlover]

i think it should be unlimited but to thease condishions NO CHEATER BOARDS!!!!! that and most pros can only get 15 then say hello to MR. Ramping board and he helps get that 25bps gat that cost more than your moms car. + it would safer

[peewee]

I say 15 max for saftey reasons .

[vonort]

I voted for 5. make them go back to Stock Class play. Be more intresting to watch. And a truer showcase of skills.

[Gumbe]

i say as long as it no bounce semi auto...then i think it shouldnt be caped....

[deadbox101]

Unlimited.

If your getting there on your own it should be allowed, no cheater modes or anything to add to your BPS. but having a BPS cap is taking skill out of the game. Sure you say it will make people move more, get angles, etc. However your forgetting about the people that can get high BPS legally THAT should have that as an advantage. Just like moving, snapping and communication trigger walking is another skill to advance in paintball.

[Lohman446]

Unlimited.

If your getting there on your own it should be allowed, no cheater modes or anything to add to your BPS. but having a BPS cap is taking skill out of the game. Sure you say it will make people move more, get angles, etc. However your forgetting about the people that can get high BPS legally THAT should have that as an advantage. Just like moving, snapping and communication trigger walking is another skill to advance in paintball.


But there is a limit even in NASCAR, enforced through a series of "body design" rules and engine restrictions what is so wrong with limiting paintball?

I mean, I'm all for no limit as long as we have minimal trigger pull lengths and weights, easily checked for and a way to stop bounce and techno-cheats.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Unlimited. No ramping or other cheat modes. If only the NPPL could do a better job of catching cheaters.

[deadbox101]

But there is a limit even in NASCAR, enforced through a series of "body design" rules and engine restrictions what is so wrong with limiting paintball?

I mean, I'm all for no limit as long as we have minimal trigger pull lengths and weights, easily checked for and a way to stop bounce and techno-cheats.

Because it takes away from part of the game. We're not talking about nascar here this is about paintball. In paintball the ability to shoot more paint then someone else is a skill and something that can improved. We shouldnt have modes to help us but when a fast trigger walker comes along they should be able to use there ability to the fullest extent.

[Lohman446]

Because it takes away from part of the game. We're not talking about nascar here this is about paintball. In paintball the ability to shoot more paint then someone else is a skill and something that can improved. We shouldnt have modes to help us but when a fast trigger walker comes along they should be able to use there ability to the fullest extent.

And in NASCAR The ability to drive faster than anyone else would be a skill. So woudl the ability to build a car that could. Do we really want paintball to be more and more about the technology. Limit the speed, allow technological help to get there and the game becomes about a skill that involves more than two fingers.

[VFX_Fenix]

With limited ROF serries I believe they should allow a shot buffer due to the way the PCB logic "times" shots. If a trigger pull falls between sampling windows the shot is effectively lost despite a trigger pull occuring. That's my feeling anyway... semi 15bps w/ Shot buffer (Millenium rules)

[deadbox101]

And in NASCAR The ability to drive faster than anyone else would be a skill. So woudl the ability to build a car that could. Do we really want paintball to be more and more about the technology. Limit the speed, allow technological help to get there and the game becomes about a skill that involves more than two fingers.


Yea but walking the trigger is just another part of the game. Sure its not the whole thing but it makes a difference. And i dont think some of you people realize that not just pump or mech players get angles or have skill. so why would having eveyone shoot the same speed be a good idea???

[Lohman446]

Yea but walking the trigger is just another part of the game. Sure its not the whole thing but it makes a difference. And i dont think some of you people realize that not just pump or mech players get angles or have skill. so why would having eveyone shoot the same speed be a good idea???


I play tournaments... so don't take this wrong. It annoys me that one of the skills that determines a winner in this great game is how fast one can mvoe there fingers. I mean... if you didn't know anythign about paintball would you be surprised at how many players think its some great skill...


Further I think it is overhyped. Shoot as fast as you want, as your worrying about how fast you get otehrs are doing other things... I think capping it would just put an end to all the sillyness (IMHO) that goes around wiht trying to shoot XXXXBPS

[Maggot6]

I think that it should be capped at 16 bps. BUT there is no ramping or anything. Because most people don't walk 16 bps consistenly no matter what they say. Plus if you can get 16 during a game, then that's pretty good.

[mercury]

Unlimited bps...but straight semi only. No ramping, etc. If you can shoot that fast on your own, then so be it.

[deadbox101]

I play tournaments... so don't take this wrong. It annoys me that one of the skills that determines a winner in this great game is how fast one can mvoe there fingers. I mean... if you didn't know anythign about paintball would you be surprised at how many players think its some great skill...


Further I think it is overhyped. Shoot as fast as you want, as your worrying about how fast you get otehrs are doing other things... I think capping it would just put an end to all the sillyness (IMHO) that goes around wiht trying to shoot XXXXBPS

All im saying is if you can get a higher speed then someone else it should be legal. Im not trying to say it makes you a pro if you can walk a trigger. I just think its an advantage some should have and a disadvantage to others they should have to overcome.

[Lohman446]

All im saying is if you can get a higher speed then someone else it should be legal. Im not trying to say it makes you a pro if you can walk a trigger. I just think its an advantage some should have and a disadvantage to others they should have to overcome.


I understand what your saying, let me make a couple assertions here

A) The difference between shooting 10BPS (what I think 99% of people actually shoot in game) or 18BPS (what so many claim to shoot in game) is going to have minimal impact on the game. Although I will grant it is a developed skill to shoot this fast I think its effect on game outcome is overstated.

B) If we capped it we could get rid of the "argument" about this skill and people honing this skill and thinking it is all important. As I assert it does not have a big effect on game outcome I think its just ridiculous to hear about.

I would like to see an alternative to limiting BPS. Unless scientific study using quantitative data from a controlled environment indicates high rate of fire is dangerous I assert that a high ROF really does not matter. I do beleive in three semi pulls in a second before "anything" goes to avoid accidental non-game discharges that are more dangerous than a single discharge. I also beleive in minimal trigger pull and lengths for the same reason - and if you had ramping or full auto after three pulls would it matter really? To offset this I think that events should be limited paint. Either for the entire event or per game. IF it were you are allowed three pods (or whatever, I arbitrarily picked that number) per player per game and the pods must fit inside this "pod size testing device" - (patent pending - yeh right) looking for cheats would be a lot simpler in my mind.

[Beemer]

3.1.20 semi-automatic mode marker—a semi-automatic
marker discharges one time with each trigger cycle. Markers
that “store” the number of trigger pulls and discharge more
than one paintball at some point do not meet this definition.
Markers that operate in any other discharge mode(s) do not
meet this definition.

6.5.4 All paintball markers shall only operate in semiautomatic
or pump mode and may not operate in other discharge modes such as burst,
enhanced trigger or fullyautomatic discharge mode.

8.3 Accidental Discharge Test:
8.3.1 Significance—Paintball markers should not discharge
when jarred or jolted in a moderate manner while their
disabling device is disengaged.



Post 33 here
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=160827



Now I know many of you aren't too worried about your fellow competitors. That if you shoot him 25 times, that's his bad luck. Many of you aren't aware that at the CFOA finale at Rock Hill, that there was a player who was bunkered by a ramping gun at point blank range in the head. The player who did the shooting was not malicious in his actions, but the quick pulls of the trigger did produce 6 shots to the mask of the player who got bunkered. Those 6 shots at that range broke the unaltered Profiler of the player who was bunkered. We were lucky and no injury occurred. Only the player who got his bell rung and had to buy some new goggles was the worse for wear.

Have to look at the big pic here. It can and will happen again, eather on the tourny or rec field.



B) If we capped it we could get rid of the "argument" about this skill and people honing this skill and thinking it is all important. As I assert it does not have a big effect on game outcome I think its just ridiculous to hear about.

If you believe this then why is 1 shot 1 pull not good enough? Then if youre fast you fall into the minority.


Unless scientific study using quantitative data from a controlled environment indicates high rate of fire is dangerous I assert that a high ROF really does not matter.

Have to go Way back to the SMG here. Why was it banned again?

[Lohman446]

3.1.20 semi-automatic mode marker—a semi-automatic
marker discharges one time with each trigger cycle. Markers
that “store” the number of trigger pulls and discharge more
than one paintball at some point do not meet this definition.
Markers that operate in any other discharge mode(s) do not
meet this definition.

6.5.4 All paintball markers shall only operate in semiautomatic
or pump mode and may not operate in other discharge modes such as burst,
enhanced trigger or fullyautomatic discharge mode.

8.3 Accidental Discharge Test:
8.3.1 Significance—Paintball markers should not discharge
when jarred or jolted in a moderate manner while their
disabling device is disengaged.



Post 33 here
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=160827



Have to look at the big pic here. It can and will happen again, eather on the tourny or rec field.




If you believe this then why is 1 shot 1 pull not good enough? Then if youre fast you fall into the minority.



Have to go Way back to the SMG here. Why was it banned again?

ASTM standards are woefully out of date. That being said unless you have a scientifically supported industry based standard to support the overriding of ASTM standards the non-complaince of them most definetly will put you in defiance of civil negligence statutes. I would go as far to assert that defiance of these standards may put you in an unfavorable position with criminal statutes.

You're right on this in a way. My statement was essentially you prove to me that what we are doing is unsafe. I'm wrong on this. The statement needs to be prove to me, scientifically in both theory and controlled experiment that what we are doing is safe.

I was unaware of, or had forgotten about the profiler incident when I made my statement. I am sure I saw it somewhere at one time but... well like I said it was simply not considered in my statement.

We, myself included, are pushing the envelope too fast. When we say "well prove this is not safe" we are wrong. If we are implementing things that our own safety standards indicate are unnacceptable then we need to prove they are safe, the burden is on us, not the opponents.

As for the rate of fire cap.. I'd like to see it. That way I can quit hearing people trying to impress me in the staging area "I fired 18 BPS that game from beginning until I was eliminated" "I fired 18 balls all game.. and eliminated you :D "

[Bolter]

Probably, but a warp with a revy on it is really no faster than a revy on top of the marker.

But just to be safe, I say outlaw them too. :rofl: :ninja: (I'm just messing with ya)

Er....wrong, the warp feeds faster than some of the early Halos. And it feeds far more consistently.

[UTDragun]

i say as long as it no bounce semi auto...then i think it shouldnt be caped....
i agree, but it will only work in a world with a ton of patience. Its just to much of a hassle to enforce. It is sad, but they it should be

[hitech]

Three semi trigger pulls then anything goes (i.e. fullauto) is going to get people bunkered with fullauto. And someone is going to bunker someone where they can’t see their opponent. The will hold down the trigger until the are 100% sure their opponent is out and not going to shoot back (or they run out of paint ;) ). Maybe the 15bps cap will keep someone from getting hurt… And maybe not.

[CoolHand]

Er....wrong, the warp feeds faster than some of the early Halos. And it feeds far more consistently.

Maybe for four or five balls. But once that spindle is empty, its gotta wait for balls to get to it.

You can't out run gravity. No matter how cool the gadget is, if it depends on gravity at any point it is going to be capped at or around 12-13 bps in actual practice.

Saying the warp can out run gravity when fed from a gravity loader is like saying that you shot 40bps by measuring the shortest time between two shots. Sure, its true, technically. But in practice you will find that it is not the case.

[matt-o]

i would say 13bps true semi but its never gonna happen, this game thrives or dies based on how much money is spent on paint.

[ICP]

and that is the reason I believe they won't go to a cap anytime soon. The more people shoot, the more they spend on outrageous tourny paint prices.

[ColdFuzion]

I put 12, but it should be 13 (There was no 13 on the poll). At 13 BPS, there's 6 inches of space between the shots. Can you dodge that? Not unless you're an olympic runner or just flat out crazy...

-Cold

[firebanex]

I voted for 5. make them go back to Stock Class play. Be more intresting to watch. And a truer showcase of skills.
Yes yes very good idea.

I voted ulimited SEMI ONLY! hey if you can shoot fast in legal semi then go for it. it does take a bit of skill and practice to shoot fast on a legal semi, I am proud to say that I can hit 12-14 in a bursts on a buddy of mines dark timmy (debounce set to 25). I don't want to be forced slower when it has taken me a while to atain that speed. when i first started I could not walk a trigger faster than about 10, now after a while i can do 12-14 depending on the set up.

till then i'll just use my phantom and one ball everyone.

[VFX_Fenix]

I put 12, but it should be 13 (There was no 13 on the poll). At 13 BPS, there's 6 inches of space between the shots. Can you dodge that? Not unless you're an olympic runner or just flat out crazy...

-Cold

Umm... you mean 21 to 23 feet (at 13bps)? At 10bps with a muzzle velocity between 280 and 300 fps there's a span of 28 to 30 feet between balls. In the time it takes for a ball to fall into a chamber of a marker the ball previously fired is already something like 18" down range.

[FreakBaller12]

and that is the reason I believe they won't go to a cap anytime soon. The more people shoot, the more they spend on outrageous tourny paint prices.
There's a 15 bps cap on alot of tournaments nowadays ;)

[50 cal]

i would say 13bps true semi but its never gonna happen, this game thrives or dies based on how much money is spent on paint.


And right there ladies and gentleman is the root of the problem. Paint sales. The promoters want those case sales. If they can't sell each person a dozen cases of paint and rape them in the mean time, they cry crocodile tears.

When a few of us started MSPA a bunch of years ago, it was agreed that it was to be BYOP. A few of the big name field owners tried to vote out BYOP and make it field only paint. MSPA was started as a way for once a month a bunch of teams could get together and have a good time and not have to be raped by the field owner on paint sales.

A few series have BYOP and luckily we can get paint pretty reasonably. Hopefully it can stay that way.

[VFX_Fenix]

Does anyone actually remember when the industry placed a self imposed limit on electro ROF's at 13bps? Ah... those were the days... then someone got an itchy trigger finger and said "hey, I can shoot faster than THAT!!!" and made a board that could.... yeah, that lasted all of ummm... 2 years?

[paintman1234]

other... Stock class!