considering a new tac one, any suggestions? [Archive]

jewie27

03-31-2005, 04:40 AM

I'm considering a new AGD Tac One. I would like some input and technical data if at all possible. Can anyone accommodate me? Any comparisons such as distance Tac One vs. A-5 with Flatline. Any comparisons regarding accuracy Tac One vs. Autocoker VFT. Relevant feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Troll

Accuracy is the same on all guns, as long as your paint and barrel match. Also if your pressure
is being regulated well, all guns are the same.

Distance - 300 fps on all guns will shoot the same distance; except the Flatline. The Flatline is definetly the longest shooting gun on the market, but I'm not sure how much farther it shoots.

frontrunner

03-31-2005, 10:51 AM

what do you play, I play alot of woods but i love to hit the airball fields every now and then. The A-5 is a great guy and i used to be one of those tippman sucks people till i started to play woods. I havent used a cocker but i have play a day or two with a buddys flatline A-5 and there are alot of them in our woods group. they tend to the tend to shoot about 25-35 feet past my mag with a 16inch boomie but its not the gun for speedball my mag seems to be a good mix for bot its tough enough for the woods but i can slap my 10inch on it and do ok in airball. they are both great guns the question is which one will better fit your play

A-Tach-One

03-31-2005, 11:06 AM

I agree with frontrunner, definetly depends on what stlye your interested in, or both. I own a Tac One and play woods and speedball. Slap on the tactical stuff and ready to go for woods. Slap on shorter barrel and ready to rock speedball. I have played with both guns and personally the feel of the Tac One is much more comfortable and solid feeling. But that's just me. Not trying to take anything away from the A-5, it's a great gun. I used to own one. I am sure you know someone with a A-5 but know anyone that has a Tac? Try them both.

troll

04-09-2005, 03:24 AM

I own an A-5 with a flatline. I have a buddy on our team that recently got a VFT Autococker and he can outshoot an A-5 with a flatline both by distance and accuracy. His cocker has a 14" Smart Parts AA and some minor mods (hammer and main valve). What I want to know is will the Tac One hold a candle to his cocker. Range, Accuracy, etc. The A-5 is a fine marker but the accuracy with a flatline leaves much to be desired.

troll

04-09-2005, 03:33 AM

To Jewie27... Your response about all markers having the same accuracy, yada, yada, is a bunch of BS. Markers that fire from a closed bolt have far better accuracy than markers that fire from an open bolt (ie, an Autococker vs. a Spyder, ther is no comparison the Cocker will smoke the Spyder). I agree that paint and barrel match is critical but a .689 in a Cocker is a good all purpose barrel. Yes a well regulated marker is also critical. If you catch my drift thus far, a Tac One fires from the closed bolt and the marker can be regulated pressure can be varried. This is why I'm looking into a Tac One. These are also some of the reasons that a Spyder costs $100 and a Tac One costs $450. Can anyone (besides Jewie27) give me some more information.

Maggot6

04-09-2005, 06:16 AM

To the closed bolt accuracy post, I beleive Tom Kaye did some sort of study / experiement on that, and they don't matter.(open vs closed accuracy) It isa myth. However, I don't own a closed bolt marker, I am just going by what the best has said. SO the paint to barrel, and consistent pressure is all that matters, but if you feel that closed bolt is still more accurate, then I am not discouraging you to still shoot it.

automikey

04-09-2005, 07:52 AM

Accuracy is the same on all guns, as long as your paint and barrel match. Also if your pressure
is being regulated well, all guns are the same.

Distance - 300 fps on all guns will shoot the same distance; except the Flatline. The Flatline is definetly the longest shooting gun on the market, but I'm not sure how much farther it shoots.

I have not found accuracy to be the same on all guns. The theories about open vs. closed bolt make sense, but it is nearly impossible to isolate all the variables involved in order to test this adequately. In testing they come out fairly equal. HPA and good regulation are very important, if you're using CO2 then accuracy isn't a big deal to you (unless you are shooting maybe 1bps so the marker can warm up between shots).

My A5 is very consistent (fps over the chrono), accuracy with the A5 with flatline is actually pretty poor, but you do gain distance and a flat tragectory. I found this good for woodsball when I started, but now the innacuracy is frustrating and I'd rather sneak up a little closer and use a different barrel. Less than 150' and the flatline loses most of it's advantage; beyond 150' I have enought time to react to an innacurate flatline shot and find cover.

I think the A5/flatline combo is the best marker out there for keeping a squad of invaders pinned down from a long distance. But you might not actually hit any of them.

Troll- I have a Tac One, I thought it was "open-bolt" in design since the ball is chambered and fired in the same motion. Closed bolt means the ball is chambered first and then fired, so it is at rest before firing. This means less movement of the ball right before it is fired, and that should improve accuracy (It's all about being gentle on your balls- should be second nature to us, right?)

Also consider the design, the A5 has many more moving parts which could cause vibration while firing. A slight vibration at the gun while firing could mean a few inches off target once the ball travels 100 feet. My Tac seems to launch paintballs continuously with very little movement.

Jewie27 is right, however, that the paint/barrel match and good regulation are the most important.

That being said, my 98c with Freak barrel and HPA is super accurate. So who knows?

UTDragun

04-09-2005, 10:06 AM

didnt they used to make wgp flatlines? would they work with a tac one?

nt2004

04-09-2005, 11:21 AM

the closed bolt versus open bolt arguement has been beated to death and it has been proven countless times that there is no real difference. Bringing that up is only going to cause some serious flaming.

As for the A-5 with flatline being less accurate, its because its a flatline. I used to own one several years ago and the barrel tends to take a lot of velocity out of the shots. That being said, it is very easily affected by wind at long distances which makes it appear much less accurate. It has nothing to do with the bolt, its all the barrels fault in this case

D-Block

04-09-2005, 11:46 AM

I own both a Tac-One and A-5 Flatlined, and both are great guns. I prefer the Tac-One because its small and more manueverable (sp?). Both guns can take a beatin' and both guns are very reliable. The flatline can let you down sometimes as the added distance will most likely result in more bounces. Not the easiest barrel to clean either, but its 10x easier than a 98c flatline :tard: . The A-5 will actually work on CO2, but I vote Tac-One.

onedude36

04-09-2005, 11:47 AM

(ie, an Autococker vs. a Spyder, ther is no comparison the Cocker will smoke the Spyder.

Of course. But will the autococker smoke a viking, an open bolt gun that actually has regulators. I dont think so. :nono:

A-Tach-One

04-09-2005, 12:15 PM

From my experience, the Tac One out performs the A5. Whoever said Tippmanns are the most durable guns obviosly hasn't used a Tac One. Not only is the Tac One more comfy, it has such a more solid feel to it. The flatline may work great for most but I play against 2 guys with those and there always complaining that they never know if there going to hit there target. Ofcourse they could just suck that bad that they couldn't hit a broad side of a barn, but doubt it. My opinion I don't care how far it shoots, if I'm that far from the action then dangit I need to get in the game and secondly if your being shot at from a distance, you actually hear the shot before it comes near you. Giving you enough time to see where it's coming from and dodge the ball. The further a ball has to travel the less acurate it's going to be. A5 with a Flatline and you bust a ball, oh your screwed. With a busted ball in that curved design you'll never know what a ball is going to do. At least with another barrel you have a chance of shooting out the paint. Also with the tac one, no more shoot down with the xvalve too. Big plus in my opinion.

frontrunner

04-09-2005, 12:29 PM

didnt they used to make wgp flatlines? would they work with a tac one?
yes but it wasnt a screw on barrel it was the gun a guy i play wiht has one and loves i but he was a tippman guy for years and he olny plays woods

troll

04-09-2005, 03:21 PM

Maggot6... Yes several people have done open vs. closed boly studies, not only on paintball markers but on firearms as well. The reason they make bolt action high power riifles is because the bolt stays forward and locked the entire time a round is leaving the rifle. This is desirable because the accuracly of bolt action rifles (overall) is unmatched. Paintball markers are no different, they use a gas to propell the ball out of the marker. Now think about you posting for a second. Which is going to give you more consistency, a closed bolt marker running on HPA and shooting all gas down the barrel or an open bolt marker, running on HPA, shooting a consistent amout of gas inconsistently between the barrel and the feed neck?

johnson88

04-09-2005, 03:31 PM

actually on most open bolt guns the gas isnt released until it is all te way foward. And firearm princples are much diffrent then that of a paintball gun

peewee

04-09-2005, 03:41 PM

Troll I been playing paintball for over 10 years & what you are saying is good theory but not a reality. If every paintball was identical to the next then it might have some validity. But you can measure +/-.005 per axis per ball in some cases. Many tests have been done with markers locked in a vise. All were trusted names in paintball, check out warpig.com for their testing. I am an avid mag & cocker fan, I honestly shoot a cocker much faster than a mag but the reliability of the mag & feel of it are different from a cocker the mag is my preference. I'd say try them both & see which fits your needs better. Depending on where your at someone from AO might be able to meet with you somewhere & let you try one.

White Wolf

04-09-2005, 03:55 PM

Trolls name is oddly appropriate.........

troll

04-10-2005, 02:55 AM

Johnson88... Most open bolt markers release the gas as the bolt is closing. If you have an example of a marker that fires from the open bolt, and positively does not release any propellant gas until the bolt is fully closed, I'd like to know what it is so I can research how it functions. Although there are differences between rifles and markers, the firing principal is very, very similar (on gas cycled rifles). I read an article written by 7 MIT graduates that were paintballers. They also did studies on barrels but one article in particular was about a very controlled experiment they did with 14 different markers. One of the results they found was that closed bolt markers have better accuracy and consistency. It's not something that only works in principle or theory as someone else stated on this thread. It is a proven fact that closed bolt markers have better accuracy and consistency (granted you're using a consistent gas). Most open bolt markers I've seen have no way to positively ensure that the bolt is closed during propellant discharge. With this being said, I can't imagine how a open bolt marker will give you the consistency a closed bolt can. I don't think Steven Hawkings himself could convince me otherwise without sound proof! Oh, White Wolf, thanks for the comment, it was very helpful in our venture for further understanding. I'd also like to get off of the paint issue. Most paintball players understand that paint varies, it's going to, all we can do is make the most of it. However in any batch of paint produced you will find a mean or average. Let's put all deviation aside for a moment and say that all paint is perfect. Now which marker (open or closed) will have better accuracy and consistency? That's right, it's still the closed bolt markers. My initial question when I started this thread was asking for valid information on the tac one. I was looking for comparisons to a more top end Autococker. To those that gave me relevant information, thank you. I must say though, it's been nice exchanging out thoughts and information on the open/closed marker thing. We are all after the same thing, finding the better markers.

troll

04-10-2005, 03:13 AM

You honestly think a viking will out-preform an autococker? We are going to have to agree to disagree there. I keep note of what type of markers are on the field as I'm sure a lot of other people do. I also watch how they shoot. At Pegasus Bridge and Panzer Attack (yes I play woodsball) the primary markers are the Tippmanns (A-5 and 98). They are great markers for the price and the flatline system serves it's purpose well. I see a lot of cockers and a lot of entry markers (spyders, etc.) as well.

ICP

04-10-2005, 03:44 AM

not to be rude, but it appears you are looking for great accuracy (aren't we all). And it also appears you have already made up your mind that the autococker is more accurate than any open bolt gun. (the A-5 and the Tac-one). So why was the question even asked, in regards to accuracy?

NASurfer

04-10-2005, 03:56 AM

well, if you want to try an open vs closed debate, hit the search button

"an Autococker vs. a Spyder, ther is no comparison the Cocker will smoke the Spyder"

Um.... yes... lets see a cheaply made blowback vs a darn good tourny gun. not a good arguement in an open vs closed bolt debate. (The tippy is a blowback also).

Im a big mag guy, i play with an rt pro (same thing as the tac one) and an emag. I play against autocockers at my field all the time. Theres no differance in accuracy, (paintballs can only get so accurate), and the mag is open bolt by the way.

As far as distance wise the mag will shoot like any high quality paintball gun that doesen't put backspin on a paintball. Why your A5 isent shooting as far as the cocker doesent make any sense, is it set up right?

Purchasewise, a tac one would be a very good choice. Beleive it or not the keys to good accuracy are good fresh paint, barrel to match and good regulation. If you have to have a closed bolt gun just for the sake of having a closed bolt, get an autococker. It'll shoot straight, but not because its closed bolt.

troll

04-13-2005, 02:27 AM

I didn't know the Tac One was an open bolt marker, I was told it was closed bolt. Thanks for the information.

troll

04-13-2005, 02:48 AM

Once again thanks for the info, didn't know the mags were open bolt. As I stated in prior post to this thread, I agree that good paint and matching barrel are an important factor. A well regulated marker is also very important. I also feel (and have proven as well as have had proven to me) that a closed bolt marker of similar quality (WGP vs. AGD) will prevail over the open bolt marker. I'm sure many people disagree and I really don't care because there are many others that agree with me. You must not understand what I mean when I say maximum effective range. An A5 flatline will out-range (overall) most markers if not all markers out there. A Cocker with a nice barrel (better get it out of the way for all of you hung up on the paint/barrel thing). A cocker with good paint, quality matching barrel, running on HPA and being well regulated (think that got it all) will shoot paint far more ACCURATELY for a longer distance than will an A5 (I have seen both markers and have compared with other A5 owners markers). I seen it happen at Pegasus Bridge and the guy with the cocker won. Thanks all, it's been fun but since I found out AGD is open bolt, I'm going to have to reconsider. I'm sure Mags are fine markers but it's just personal preference.

Carbon

04-13-2005, 04:19 AM

holy cripes why even bother. just get a cocker already...

frop

04-13-2005, 05:16 AM

LOL at the blatant jackassery & disdain for scientific study.

jame4091

04-13-2005, 12:47 PM

I have both a tac-one and a flatline A-5, i love them both and you just cant beat the durability of a tippmann and a automag. In my opinon i tend to lean more towards the tac-one just because i like the fell of it a little better and compressed air is much more consistent. I live in idaho and the wind never ceases, and the flatline SUCKS!!! in the wind and it can be a little annoying to clean, plus opponets can see the balls in air and i have more bounces with the flatline. Both guns are great deals though, if you were to put a tac-one together buying parts single would be in the hole over 900 bucks that a pretty good deal if you think about it. one thing that sucks about the tac-one though is that it dosent come will lines, asa, fittings ,or a hopper and getting set up for compressed air is pretty costly. You can get a flatline, response A-5 for around 300 and it comes with lines and a badass feed syestem.Overall both guns are a great choice, both have customization options coming out the roof, so whatever you pick you wont regret it.

Ive shot a VF tactical and it isnt quite as nice as the tac-one. The truth is autocockers can be difficult to work on and i dont see spending 700 on that gun a very wise investment. Dont get me wrong i dont mind autocockers its just they have bad resale and ive had bad experinces with them.Go FOR THE TAC-One

peewee

04-13-2005, 01:24 PM

Troll please give us a link to this test by the high & mighty MIT kids. Are these kids specialists in paintball & can we expect some uber marker from them in the future? I want to read it. See I have little respect for intellect I'm a blue collar kind of guy that has seen to many academically brilliant people that are in truth functional morons. I have never heard of this study. See we cant go to the paintball being perfect because it doesn't exist! So any basis for your argument goes out the window right there. Its easy to see that your mind is made up so heres a link for you...

http://www.autocockerhq.com/

Also a link to the perfect closed bolt marker. Note the are in limited supply

http://www.pbreview.com/products/reviews/204/

ShadowNife

04-13-2005, 02:40 PM

troll man, i think that the viking will outperform most cockers in terms of air efficiency. Accuracy cant really be measured in terms of the marker assuming everything is machined to the same specifications and tolerances. This means you cant feasibly compare a spyder victor to a WGP Karnivore since they are made to such different standards.

so your basic reasoning behind the argument that closed bolt is more accurate than an open bolt is that you relate it to firearms. Ok I agree that the bolt-action rifles are more accurate, but what's the reasoning behind that? The bolt does not move, at all, until the entire firing action is over. If your rapid firing with a cocker, there is no way that bolt is not moving before all the gas has escaped etc. Another closed bolt argument is that the paintball is completely chambered and at rest before firing. When ripping at 16 bps, do you think the ball is actually sitting completely still before every shot? Just seems kind of unreasonable that a closed bolt is any more accurate than an open bolt. Btw, saying that an open bolt shoots gas through the bolt as its sealing the breech is also logically kind of weird to me. This part I'm not sure of, but wouldn't that cause MAJOR blowback problems if every open bolt marker shoots as it is cycling the bolt forward?

onto your range accuracy argument... why would a cocker be more accurate to a certain distance? Seeing as the only point where a cocker would be affected the paintball is when it shoots, why would it only be accurate in a certain distance?

As mentioned before, this argument has been beaten to death, revived, and shot again. People have done various studies, we've shown that both AGD and warpig have done tests to show there is no different IN PAINTBALL. You cited an example of 7 MIT people, which you have yet to get provide a source for, who did their experiments with firearms. As someone else stated, firearm physics is very different than paintball physics. Paintballs arent going anywhere near the speeds of a bullet, nor are they even close to being aerodynamically the same.

Last word, get the tac one, its well worth it :) :bounce:

Jakedubbleya

04-13-2005, 03:18 PM

Wow troll, if you ever insult a viking (custom, super efficient, ultra quality guns) in regards to a cocker (super-recycled hype masters) again i will castrate you. Go for the tac one, its lower maintenance, smaller, lighter, and looks better, probably cheaper too. Efficiency aside, these are the factors you should be looking at when deciding on your new gun, accuracy and range are identical on all decent guns (accuracy varying slightly from barrel to barrel is the only non-constant you will run into). EVERYBODY who knows the FACTS about paintball will agree on this, not just us "mag guys" who try to make up excuses for having an open bolt marker, and if youd done some research you might have discovered that.

Lower a spyder to 400psi operating pressure and throw a good reg and barrel on there and guess what, you WONT see any noticable accuracy differences when you compare it to a shoebox or a cocker.

do the same thing with the a-5, same deal.

Flatline works by having a bent barrel, ball rolls on the top part creating backspin, problem is too high or too low of a velocity will render this useless by creating too much or too little backspin/velocity. Im guessing the flatline you compared the allmighty cocker to was shooting as a lower-than-effective velocity, or was just not set up correctly which is often the case with those pita flatlines. But flatline really WILL give you more distance.

Air is not released in open bolt/blowback untill it has passed the feed neck(all the way forward). Your logic just doesnt apply man, sry.

ColdFuzion

04-13-2005, 03:35 PM

Tom Kaye prooved the open vs. closed theory...

I have a ULE Custom (Same as a Tac, different body) and an ANS GX-3 (A closed bolt cocker). They usually perform the same, but once or twice, the Mag shot a tidbit more accurately (1 ball better than the shot grouping test, it only happened once or twice out of many tests).

As for a Flatline... It's more accurate, until the barrel inside becomes smooth.. Then, they shoot like normal barrels. I know from experience. Also, Mags and Tippmans are both rock solid, but my Mag is more comfy than any A-5 I've ever held.

As for cocker vs. mag, I love both and WILL NOT sell either.. They're equal, but each has ups and downs (Cocker-ups-mesmerizing movement on back of gun downs-timing Mag-ups-ZERO chops EVER-downs-Err... Ummm... High pressure?)

There ya are an honest opinion from an owner of both and a shooter of all 3.

-Cold

jewie27

04-13-2005, 04:48 PM

jewie27

04-13-2005, 04:50 PM

frop

04-13-2005, 06:27 PM

Go for the tac one, .............., probably cheaper too.

Last I checked ( a long time ago), the tac & vft cocker are in the same price bracket, ~$400-somethin.

Carbon

04-14-2005, 02:43 AM

Seriously tho Troll, is this a test?

are you a secret AO mod looking to recruit potential mods?

or is this just for your entertainment, cause it sure is entertaining me!

billmi

04-15-2005, 12:24 PM

Johnson88... Most open bolt markers release the gas as the bolt is closing.

This is not true. Most open bolt paintguns - the Automag, Spyder, M98, Shocker SFT, Matrix, Nerve, et. close their breech prior to actuating their valve. On blow forward markers like the Spyder and M98 this is done by having a hammer throw that is further than the distance needed to close the breech. Yes, the bolt is still moving when the valve is opened, but it has already closed off the breech and is pushing further forward at that time.

I read an article written by 7 MIT graduates that were paintballers. They also did studies on barrels but one article in particular was about a very controlled experiment they did with 14 different markers.

Sounds like quite a study undertaken by a knowledgable group.

Where did you read it? Please, do share it with us.

kurama

04-15-2005, 01:54 PM

Troll - I believe Toothpastedog on PBR is making a marker with a bolt kit available which makes the open bolt release gas when its fully foreward.

Anyways, the closed/open bolt accuracy difference is true ON REAL FIREARMS. A paintball isn't a bullet, it is a ball filled with liquid. It does not function like a bullet. The reason you may see more accuracy on an autococker than a spyder would be paint match, barrel, air source, or regulator. I'm a proud cocker owner as well as a proud mag owner, and I have yet to notice any accuracy difference and I shoot them all the time with the same barrel and the same paint. If anything, the mag is more accurate because of the AIR regulator on the back. How gentle you are on the paint doesn't affect accuracy, but I believe mags put the lowest PSI put onto the paint itself, and a foamie on the bolt would allow you to be supersticious about the bolt somehow affecting your marker's accuracy, anyways.

And your friend's cocker doesn't shoot further with mods. He's most likely cheating by iron palming or turning his velocity up. Either that, or he shoots his marker up at a 45* angle instead of flat which will add range.

Back to the actual topic. First of all, there is no accuracy diff between the cocker and tac one. Both come with good barrels, but I believe the AGD reg is better than the WGP reg. You wont notice much difference at all though. Anyways, the A5 flatline will get about 25ft more range (I believe they advertise something absurd like 50ft). The A5 will be less accurate, however, because it doesn't come with a regulator stock. Its also much slower than a Tac One. Personally, I'd take the Tac One, but whatever floats your boat.

Oh, and for maximum range, any marker other than flatline that can get 300fps wins this one. I dont believe a flatline will be accurate when arched at 45*. Never tried it myself, but I asked a friend who owns a flatlined a5.

Jakedubbleya

04-15-2005, 03:03 PM

Last I checked ( a long time ago), the tac & vft cocker are in the same price bracket, ~$400-somethin.

AV has them for 500$, but people usually put more money into cockers than mags after-market wise, wouldnt you agree?

Man thos VFT's are UUUGLY...! :tard:

troll

04-15-2005, 09:15 PM

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the autococker/viking comparison as well. I'm aware of how the flatline barrel functions and I'm also aware that in fact propellant gas can and will escape through the feed neck on an open bolt marker. As I asked another person on this thread, give mean example of an open bolt marker that is 100% fully closed before it fires. I can and have tuned my cocker to ensure the bolt is fully closed before and during firing. I use the piece of TP on the feed neck to ensure I'm getting no suction or blowback. I also realize that the faster you cycle the marker the more likely of a chance that propellant will escape out somewhere else than the barrel. You'll have a hard time convincing me other wise

Wow troll, if you ever insult a viking (custom, super efficient, ultra quality guns) in regards to a cocker (super-recycled hype masters) again i will castrate you. Go for the tac one, its lower maintenance, smaller, lighter, and looks better, probably cheaper too. Efficiency aside, these are the factors you should be looking at when deciding on your new gun, accuracy and range are identical on all decent guns (accuracy varying slightly from barrel to barrel is the only non-constant you will run into). EVERYBODY who knows the FACTS about paintball will agree on this, not just us "mag guys" who try to make up excuses for having an open bolt marker, and if youd done some research you might have discovered that.

Lower a spyder to 400psi operating pressure and throw a good reg and barrel on there and guess what, you WONT see any noticable accuracy differences when you compare it to a shoebox or a cocker.

do the same thing with the a-5, same deal.

Flatline works by having a bent barrel, ball rolls on the top part creating backspin, problem is too high or too low of a velocity will render this useless by creating too much or too little backspin/velocity. Im guessing the flatline you compared the allmighty cocker to was shooting as a lower-than-effective velocity, or was just not set up correctly which is often the case with those pita flatlines. But flatline really WILL give you more distance.

Air is not released in open bolt/blowback untill it has passed the feed neck(all the way forward). Your logic just doesnt apply man, sry.

troll

04-15-2005, 09:17 PM

Amazing how common sense and education can enlighten people. Do your homework!

The only one smoking crack is the one that believes a closed bolt is more accurate. Another poor soul has jumped onto the WGP bandwagon.......

Great how marketing can brainwash people....

troll

04-15-2005, 09:24 PM

I need to see this bolt and you're right about the extreme arch on the flatline. BTW it is a common misconception that a 45 degree angle with yeild the farthest trajectory. One of the things most Calculus students find out that f"(x) (second derivitive of x, x being a trajectory equation, is that a 37 degree angle yeilds the farthest trajectory. Also this marker was chronoed right before this distance stand off took place. Our team plays holding integrity to the highest regards. It's an insult to suggest such a thing.

Troll - I believe Toothpastedog on PBR is making a marker with a bolt kit available which makes the open bolt release gas when its fully foreward.

Anyways, the closed/open bolt accuracy difference is true ON REAL FIREARMS. A paintball isn't a bullet, it is a ball filled with liquid. It does not function like a bullet. The reason you may see more accuracy on an autococker than a spyder would be paint match, barrel, air source, or regulator. I'm a proud cocker owner as well as a proud mag owner, and I have yet to notice any accuracy difference and I shoot them all the time with the same barrel and the same paint. If anything, the mag is more accurate because of the AIR regulator on the back. How gentle you are on the paint doesn't affect accuracy, but I believe mags put the lowest PSI put onto the paint itself, and a foamie on the bolt would allow you to be supersticious about the bolt somehow affecting your marker's accuracy, anyways.

And your friend's cocker doesn't shoot further with mods. He's most likely cheating by iron palming or turning his velocity up. Either that, or he shoots his marker up at a 45* angle instead of flat which will add range.

Back to the actual topic. First of all, there is no accuracy diff between the cocker and tac one. Both come with good barrels, but I believe the AGD reg is better than the WGP reg. You wont notice much difference at all though. Anyways, the A5 flatline will get about 25ft more range (I believe they advertise something absurd like 50ft). The A5 will be less accurate, however, because it doesn't come with a regulator stock. Its also much slower than a Tac One. Personally, I'd take the Tac One, but whatever floats your boat.

Oh, and for maximum range, any marker other than flatline that can get 300fps wins this one. I dont believe a flatline will be accurate when arched at 45*. Never tried it myself, but I asked a friend who owns a flatlined a5.

Jakedubbleya

04-15-2005, 10:14 PM

*rolls up sleeves*

allllllrighty then.... so you already own a cocker... AND you think you had to specially tune it to make sure gas wasnt escaping through the feed neck when it was fired? *insert befundled expression here*

lol lets just forget about that for a moment... anyway, heres "proof" as to why blowbacks, a type of open bolt used in spyders and pihranas, the cheapest kind (and thus the most likely to have "gas mis-distrobution" right) dont blow smoke up their holes (heh, good one jake).
Click me:
http://img32.echo.cx/img32/6254/spyderan1gx.th.gif (http://img32.echo.cx/my.php?image=spyderan1gx.gif)
Image from http://www.ottersccustoms.com/works.html, great animation otter.

AS you can see, the stryker activates the valve, which is at the front of the gun, and when that happens the air goes through the valve both to the stryker to recock it and to the bolt to propell the paintball, which is directly connected to the stryker so it recieves air at the front of the gun as well.

The valve is resealed by the valve pin by the time the bolt re-opens the breach to the feed, thus, no wasted air.
----------------
I believe when kurama said that your buddy tilted his gun at a 45 degree angle, he was just saying that 45* (being very general) goes furhter than 0*. There was no hint of what angle yielded furthest distance, you sort of blew that one out of the water.

It is a fact, the flatline will shoot further if it does what it is supposed to do, obviously it didnt.

What isnt a fact, is that range varies from bolt design or marker. Range varies only with velocity (think about it), even a gun leaking air through the feed neck will shoot just as far at the same velocity as one that isnt, it just takes more air, thats where you get into efficiency, which gun uses the least air to get the most velocity.

kurama

04-16-2005, 02:44 AM

Troll, there is an edit button for a reason.

There is no way for your friend's cocker to shoot further under the same conditions without some sort of foul play, if he knows it or not. You've probably overlooked something in testing this, or you're basically defying the laws of physics as we know it. Also, because air is pushed through the bolt as it moves forward on some open bolt markers doesn't mean it escapes into the feeneck. Take the hopper off of an open bolt marker that doesn't have sealing problems (ala blowback) and put some paint in the feedneck. It will stay still. This is because when the air is released through the bolt, the bolt is already past the feedneck, and orings or delrin tolerances are keeping the air infront of the bolt. Also, why do you try to tune suction out? As the Osiris cocker (I believe thats what it's called) shows, suction is a good thing that you want. There's a vid somewhere of a cocker ramping to 36bps off of a gravity feed hopper with suction, or something like that.

Anyways, with how you post, don't get a tac one. You seem better off staying with your supersticion. Just please, don't go running around and spurting out this stuff, or else people like me will have to take some time to jam the truth into their heads. Its annoying.

And for the record, I used 45* as an example. I didn't know 37* would give the maximum range, but I didn't claim that 45* was either. I'll take note of this in the future. But really, when you're on the field you won't be able to tell the difference from 37* to 45* anyways.

troll

04-16-2005, 03:13 AM

I meant nothing (toward you) about the 37/45 degree thing, however it is true. I want to take this chance to thank all of the AO members who stayed with this thread. Nice to know we have some very knowledgeable Mag owners looking at these forums. Remember, there are only a handfull of people on this site. The experienced mag owners, who more than likely have dealt with other markers and the "whats an auto mag" people, who are probably skeptical of anything besides what they have used for quite a while. There are also others but they don't throw near as many blows. Thanks again.

BTW... ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/rec.sport.paintball
there is some good info on here!

Troll, there is an edit button for a reason.

There is no way for your friend's cocker to shoot further under the same conditions without some sort of foul play, if he knows it or not. You've probably overlooked something in testing this, or you're basically defying the laws of physics as we know it. Also, because air is pushed through the bolt as it moves forward on some open bolt markers doesn't mean it escapes into the feeneck. Take the hopper off of an open bolt marker that doesn't have sealing problems (ala blowback) and put some paint in the feedneck. It will stay still. This is because when the air is released through the bolt, the bolt is already past the feedneck, and orings or delrin tolerances are keeping the air infront of the bolt. Also, why do you try to tune suction out? As the Osiris cocker (I believe thats what it's called) shows, suction is a good thing that you want. There's a vid somewhere of a cocker ramping to 36bps off of a gravity feed hopper with suction, or something like that.

Anyways, with how you post, don't get a tac one. You seem better off staying with your supersticion. Just please, don't go running around and spurting out this stuff, or else people like me will have to take some time to jam the truth into their heads. Its annoying.

And for the record, I used 45* as an example. I didn't know 37* would give the maximum range, but I didn't claim that 45* was either. I'll take note of this in the future. But really, when you're on the field you won't be able to tell the difference from 37* to 45* anyways.