Female Paintball "Stars": The Ultimate Poser?

[Target Practice]

This post is based off the input of multiple people, and is a group effort with multiple writers.

Some members and I were sitting around talking about the state of paintball after an awesome day at the Norcal Socal event. We covered markers, cheating, sponsorship, patents, and the overall general fare that occupies the late night musings of AOers. This also got talked about in the AO chat room as well.

Oh yeah, and we played Scrabble.

Anyhoo, one topic that stood out in our conversation was the role of women in paintball. More specifically, in the tourney scene.

Those in the discussion decided that we would love to see an all female team that plays a respectable game, and root for them. It's an inspiring thing to see women do well in anything that is traditionally dominated by men.

But we cannot think of one female team that fits this description, and this is disappointing. We can only think of a couple of female players that had this kind of character, and they don't play anymore. They were REAL paintball players. Maybe some of you can add some more examples of those we are overlooking, if any.

We tried to pin down why this is, when there are a few female teams out there. The first thing we talked about is how they play.

Appearance is everything. They look convincing on the break, good enough for those important photo opportunities. We suspect that they practice the break a lot for these convenient group photos. But what the still camera does not capture is the lack of hustle, the lack of heart, the lack of exertion. Even mediocre male teams get out there, and hustle. Maybe this has something to do with why these women teams get rolled so much. The female players give little indication that they are trying to win by the way they play.

And then they get to their first bunker. And then what? The game falls apart, and it appears that they are clueless and never pull it back together. It closely resembles a rookie team that has some idea of what they are supposed to be doing it, but they can not execute.

You can't see an underlying strategy or game plan, unless you call hiding behind your 20 a game plan. They move here and there, but then what? You don't see them working together, working their way up the field, or any sense of coordination whatsoever.

This is not a big deal. There is nothing wrong if a team is in a learning stage, or tries to better themselves. But these teams have every resource that they need to get better, and play a respectable game. Why do they keep getting rolled by mediocre male teams that are paying their own way? Not just beat. Rolled. Rolled like a pair of dice at Caesar's Palace.

But they talk the talk, they talk the "paintball language.' Female machismo. They can't actually deliver the goods, and this doesn't mean winning the event but at least putting up an effort. They are good at acting the part of a "paintball player." They get interviews that are are scripted. Paintball is more of a side note, and the interview is more like a gentleman's periodical interview. They talk about how they learned everything they know from some pro, or how much they practice. They talk about how "aggressive" they are. Hahahaha! "Remember kids, be aggressive just like me! Do whatever you can to be closest to the camera! Hold on, my smores are almost done. Let me get them from my back bunker campfire."

They play for the wrong reasons, and some of them don't even pretend anymore.

Quit playing for the attention! One of their tricks is to complain about other female players who play for attention, but they are special. They are exceptional. This idea that they play for attention is not a new one, and a common retort from the females is that the "naysayers" are just jealous. Really. Of course they don't believe it, they are fooled by all the fanboys who tell them all about their "mad skillz," or whatever it takes to increase their minimal chances of getting a piece of hot poser action.

They say they are trying to represent the average girl in paintball, and make a presence in the sport. But all they are doing is trivializing the average female player, the real ones. They are not doing anything that helps female players get taken seriously, although they pretend to. Is it their expected responsibility? Absolutely not, but it's what they say they are trying to do. These girls have no female paintball role models, unless you call a role model someone who:

Gets wasted every night partying in their hotel rooms, clubs, limos, or bars, instead of attending the player get-togethers or meeting the fans.
Act the part of mini-celebrity and treat you like you are nothing if you can't do something for them.
Let's herself be a "token" player and/or an object
Is more concerned with being able to get flown around by sponsors and party than the game itself.
Has no real job.
Has no education.

and....

Has no game.

It would be thrilling for paintball if this were not the case, and we saw vicious female teams like you find in soccer, softball, basketball, and every other sport. They play for the glory of the game.

[Cameo]

guy asks me: "what in the world would compell you to play a sport such as paintball"
I answer: "20 guys to every chick"
so in my case, yes sir you are correct.

I cheered because I loved to watch the guys show off. I played co-ed softball because I liked being around guys. I played Basket ball at the local hoop cause the guys thought a girl couldn't do it, and it was a great feeling to stuff them. I played tackle football along with the boys at the local park cause I liked having one of them pass me in the hall and say "great spiral yesterday". But through all of these I learned things from the guys about the sports(cause I must admit I was not very good at any of them, although i tried); and about guys in genral just by being around them.
Females tend to be driven by attention, that is why they dress they way they do and act the way they do, and apperently that is why they play the way they do..Just how we are in my opinion.
As long as guys are giving the girls attention, the girls will accept it. :hail:
~steph
disclaimer: this is the opinon of me, and only me, as usual there will be some that disagree.. :)

[Paintchucker]

They play for the wrong reasons, and some of them don't even pretend anymore.



Maybe they play for their own reasons, and not for your reasons. Your reasons are why you play. To each their own...

[Target Practice]

Maybe they play for their own reasons, and not for your reasons. Your reasons are why you play. To each their own...

They can play for their reasons, that's fine. Just say so.

[Lohman446]

They can play for their reasons, that's fine. Just say so.


There are exceptions, but I agree with you for the most part..

Those reasons would be? I can be the center of attention of a sport dominated by men. By using myself as a symbol I can find myself in positions men of comparable talent would never attain.

Those reasons? That being said, is it not true of many female athletes who cross into "male" sports. I mean, if there was a woman playing in the NBA (and I do not mean the WNBA) would she not gain notice that males of comparable skills would not - assuming she did not have the skills and abilities of a superstar to begin with.

[SCpoloRicker]

Some would be quick to point out that WNBA players couldn't realistically compete against NBA players. I'm not sure that is a valid argument. There doesn't seem to be any physical restraints from playing pball at a high level.

Honestly, female teams strike me as novelty; usually pieced together, with looks at a premium. Take 10-15 pretty women, throw equip at them, and put 'em in events.

To be fair; most of these teams don't have lots of time together, and some of the members may be new to the sport.

Plus, I heard somewhere that the Russian Legion coach wants to start a female team. :)

[SlartyBartFast]

How many female paintball players are there?

How many all female teams?

Considering the small numbers, how did the "professional" female teams become "professional"?

I don't know the history of any of the pro teams (and I don't particularily care) but it seems to me the pro teams are just assembled groups of poster girls used to sell products to testosterone addled teenagers.

This means their primary function is to promote their sponsors and simply get noticed.

The fact that they are assembled from all over, probably means they get to practice very little as a team.

[Lohman446]

Considering the small numbers, how did the "professional" female teams become "professional"?

The answer is not the players fault - in other than they have allowed themselves to be exploited. I'm guilty of what most players are.

The purpose of promoting a team is not to make a winning team - it is to sell product. There are many methods of doing this- winning teams promote products, but in a very competetive environent recruiting, building, and keeping a winning team together is difficult and likely costly. Or you can put together a team of good looking women A female team likely garners as much attention as any but the best of the best teams out there - and is easier to build and maintian. I can look at a female team as a marketting director and tell you if they will suceed at gettign the product looked at, I don't have to worry a bit about there playing ability. Sorry... this is not meant to be chauvinistic.

Take the female teams - if one of there members quit replacing her is not as hard, there are far more good looking women then there are pro level paintball players.

The industry uses women teams to promote there product because they promote it better (print coverage, photo coverage, "fans", etc.) than a male team would. They have no need to be ultra competetive to do so.

Can you blame the ladies? I mean look at the attention the female players on these boards get compared to the male members, it is simply marketting. I mean if showing my assetts would get me a place in pro paintball I would to. Seriously, how many of you would not given the chance?

Look at it this way - look at the worst hit threads. You and I probably both read it with mild interest, but as soon as Cameo used the word breast and butt she had our attention more than any other post on that thread didn't she?

[Skoad]

Luckily this is spurting some intelligent posts, i could see this thread over on pbnation right now... :)


Not all paintball teams play to be the best, many play for fun. I don't really see the female teams boasting about how good they are. My only problem is when an interview is done with players from a female team and they claim to be "competeing with the pro's." In my view competeing is actually doing above average, not just playing against the pros. Any old team with the $ backing them can go to an event and play with some of the best.

As far as sponsers and such goes, any paintball player would accept free crap - even if it is crap!

Paintball is kind of a unique sport in the fact that I think both genders have an equal opportunity to do well. In other mainstream sports men are in an upper class based on mainly physical strength. In paintball, you don't even need to be in tip top shape to play well. Everyone has the same or equal equipment and you don't need to be some super weight lifter. I don't think you can really be a natural in paintball either. The only real things that can seperate players is talent/skill and possibly sprinting speed - which both genders have an equal chance to ultimately master.


I'm not sure why there hasn't been a decently successful female team. Maybe they are caught up in the attention they are getting instead of working towards being the best, maybe not. I think that if there is to be a really good, stand out female player that it will not come from these all female teams, but possibly a co-ed team. I'm not sure why there aren't many mixed male/female teams. Maybe the thread-starters views about female players is true and the "role models" are really in essense letting down other female players (or prospective players) by not winning.


I'm kind of curious to what Clare will respond with, if she does. Maybe she can fill us in on what practicing habits of female teams are, and what actually drives them to play.

[Eric Cartman]

I think that if there is to be a really good, stand out female player that it will not come from these all female teams, but possibly a co-ed team. I'm not sure why there aren't many mixed male/female teams.

Since there are far fewer females playing the game, this certainly makes sense to me. If I was a female (shudder) looking to get ahead / move up in the world of paintball, I'd be trying to get on a good team. I wouldn't want that to be an all female team, I'd want to be playing with the best players I could find regardless of gender.

[coyote]

I play for 1 reason...

FUN

I would suggest that the ladies do it for the same reason.

The few female teams that exist in paintball make them desirable faces. that is how they are used.

Don't tell me that Dye puts 10% of the resources that they put behind Ironmen behind the Femmes Fatale. They don't. Ironmen, NYX, and Aftershock are on the Dye roster to sell C5's and DM5s, their performance gear. The Femmes are there to sell Vixen shorts and babydoll tanks. That requires long legs, pretty smiles, and a mad suntan.

I know a handful of lady ballers who are as good as most men. Put into a major marketing situation they aren't going to get the coaching and practice time the men are. they are going to be groomed as spokemodels.

[tsc]

guy asks me: "what in the world would compell you to play a sport such as paintball"
I answer: "20 guys to every chick"
so in my case, yes sir you are correct.


You know what?

Thank you. Thank you for making it that much harder on me. Because of people like you, I cannot go to the field and have a good time, because I'm dodging the comments behind my back like "Yeah, she's here with her boyfriend" or "Oh, damnit, a girl...". Thank you for ruining my sport for me. You are the problem this thread addresses.


There are exceptions, but I agree with you for the most part..

Those reasons would be? I can be the center of attention of a sport dominated by men. By using myself as a symbol I can find myself in positions men of comparable talent would never attain.

Where are the exceptions? The female players that play for the game get no attention-- they're too busy playing to market themselves, or have their own line of merchandise, or shmooze with sponsors.

And you're missing the point- these girls (I will not call them women, that assumes maturity and respectability) call themselves "real players" they say they are just like everyone else and play for the game. If they are a promotional team, don't hide it. The Dye Girls Team. The Empire Ladies. Don't hide it. Don't pretend. Because experienced/intelligent male players look at the only publicized females in the sport and go "wow, for paintball players, they suck."


To be fair; most of these teams don't have lots of time together, and some of the members may be new to the sport.

That's the point. Real teams practice, real teams hang out outside of the scene, real teams often have friends or relatives, and are not pieced together of the best marketing tools.

Why is someone who is 'new to the sport' on a sponsored tournament team? Why? If they're "new to the sport", they're not good. Period. It's like putting a 12-year-old on a collegiate running team and expecting them to hold their own. The rest of the team will carry them, and their teams will still win sometimes, but not because of the contribution of the 12-year-old.


Can you blame the ladies? I mean look at the attention the female players on these boards get compared to the male members, it is simply marketting. I mean if showing my assetts would get me a place in pro paintball I would to. Seriously, how many of you would not given the chance?

Look at it this way - look at the worst hit threads. You and I probably both read it with mild interest, but as soon as Cameo used the word breast and butt she had our attention more than any other post on that thread didn't she?

But you know what. The attention the female 'players' on this board get, when given to actual players of the sport, just gets in our (yes our) way. We want to play, not to be fawned over or told how good we are, or told how courageous we are for playing such a big, scawwy sport. It's BS. I'm a player, I go to the field with the same expectations of any of the guys there-- to be left the hell alone, to shoot people, and to be shot. I am sick and tired of having people apologize for hitting me-- "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to!" Yes, you did. Quit.

Put true female players in the limelight, PLEASE. ANd you know what? They wouldn't have their own merchandise, or posters, or Maxim-style interviews in various magazines. They'd be too busy playing. And they'd be good at it, too.


And on top of that, I would like to say "Yeah, I got hit in the boob and WOW, you have never seen a funnier looking honker." And not have every male set of ears in the vincinity perk up. And, as Cameo (fitting name..) has admitted...she does it for the attention. That is the problem I'm talking about. She makes it so us mammary-enabled players cannot go to the field and have a good time, because people assume we're all there to get attention, and to be around all of the guys. There is no rolleyes big enough.



I'm not sure why there hasn't been a decently successful female team. Maybe they are caught up in the attention they are getting instead of working towards being the best, maybe not.

I'm sure they got into the sport with good intent (Cameo has now proven my assumption wrong, further lessening my faith). You have to start playing sometimes. But when they kept getting attention, when they realized they were fawned over and idolized...they forgot about paintball. All of these female teams and players have forgotten about paintball a long time ago, and it's turned into nothing but a tool to get attention.

I work for every ounce of respect I get on the field, and trust me, it ain't much. I need to play as hard as I can, proverbial balls-out, to the limits of my skills, for the people I'm playing against and with to even BEGIN to take me seriously. If I slack off for one game and chill in the back laning...I hear comments afterwards like "Oh haha, she's getting tiiired. I wonder if her boyfriend will take her home" or "Yeah, she sucks, did you see what she did last game?".

I'm a GIMP. I had radical knee reconstruction and reforming. They broke my leg to fix my knee. I wear a full-leg articulated knee brace when I play, and I limp.

And I get cheated against.

Let me tell you a story.

My first day playing paintball in a year. I was in my knee-brace, using a crappy minimag with a z-grip and a finicky revvy. I'm sitting in the back of the truck, getting my crap together.

The guy in the car parked next to us is named Kerrigan. He walks up, looks at me, and says:

"Oh hey, little lady."

It took every ounce of my strength not to break his nose.

The first game came down to Kerrigan and myself. We had ended up flanking each other, and were both on the fifty, and shooting across the field the wrong way. I start working towards him. I'm 20 feet from him. I rip off a string the second I see his hopper come out of that bunker. I hear 'thwok thwok PAK" Goggle shot. You know that sound. Everyone watching from the sidelines CALLED THE GAME. It was over. I put my marker down. Kerrigan comes from behind his bunker, goggles clean, and stitches my right side.

After the game, he came over to me and said: "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hurt you".

I tried a little less hard to restrain myself from punching him this time.

The second game, It is down to me against Kerrigan and some guy with an A-5. Kerrigan pops out, I gog him. Guy with the A-5 gets me in my breif moment of gloating where I wasn't paying attention. Cool, no prob.

Kerrigan comes up to me after the game.

"Welp, looks like the LITTLE LADY shot me out! Good job, I didn't think you could do it!"

This had nothing to do with my kneebrace. This had only to do with the fact that I had boobs. You know how I know? Because every other time I played with him, at different fields, not wearing my kneebrace (Brace free for 3 months, what what)...He makes the same comments. Over and over again.

And he's not the only one. He's just one of so many who pull this crap, because the only highly publicized female 'players' SUCK. They suck and they are marketing tools who try to get their faces on as many products as possible-- not their paint on as many faces as possible.

I truely am sorry if this comes off as incredibly bitter. But it's hard not to, because I am. I am sick and tired of this sport, and how it treats me. But it's my sport. And damnit, I'm going to try to fix it.

[JimmyBeam]

we have three girls that play somehwat regularly at our field. but as much as I hate to say it, they dont play because they love the game, they play because the field is full of guys, and they get non stop attention the whole time they are there.

[Duzzy]

That's the point. Real teams practice, real teams hang out outside of the scene, real teams often have friends or relatives, and are not pieced together of the best marketing tools.

I am sick and tired of this sport, and how it treats me. But it's my sport. And damnit, I'm going to try to fix it.


I apologize for cutting out most of your quote but it was a little long. My question to you is, where do I find more girls like you? I have yet to find a girl passionate about playing paintball in my area. They play because of peer pressure, to get attention, and to "spend time" with their boyfriends, but no chick I know plays for the game. They play for glory. Heck, I would love to get bunkered by a girl because it would say something about their character that no one else seems to have.

And I love the last line, in America many people are under the idea that if you think something is wrong then you should leave. But that doesn't make anything better, only makes matters worse. Good luck.

[Target Practice]

I apologize for cutting out most of your quote but it was a little long. My question to you is, where do I find more girls like you? I have yet to find a girl passionate about playing paintball in my area. They play because of peer pressure, to get attention, and to "spend time" with their boyfriends, but no chick I know plays for the game. They play for glory. Heck, I would love to get bunkered by a girl because it would say something about their character that no one else seems to have.

You're not going to see them. They are indistinguishable from the serious player, whether the mask is on or off.

[Duzzy]

You're not going to see them. They are indistinguishable from the serious player, whether the mask is on or off.

I disagree, if her mask is off and she isn't acting like a moron, or being a loudmouth then I will notice it. Then I will probably assume that a) she isn't in fact a male or b) a very unusual person for my area.

And I know your pain, I am the only stock player in my area. So while it isn't exactly the same it comes close. I have people wipe on me, then bunker me, then brag about how they bunkered someone and fail to mention that I have a pump gun and they cheated. I don't get any respect, people tell me to play in the back where I "won't get in the way" and to be honest, I suck at paintball. But I am almost always pushing harder than anyone with a semi because it is what I want to do, I have fun doing it. Even though I do get kicked in the pants a whole lot.

[TheTramp]

I 've seen some really good female tournament players but they were on co-ed teams. I can't say I've ever seen a female team made up of really good players.

I think someone said it earlier, why wouldn't a woman who wanted to be the best that she can be get on a team that has the best chance of giving her that opportunity. At this point I don't think there are enough female players to give a woman much of an option of female only teams that are great.

[Lee]

empress is barley sponsored, they pay thier own way for the most part.
thier team members are scattered across the country and don't get to practice together regularly if at all.

i say, instead of wishing for a girl team to root for, why not root for the ones we have. maybe doing that will get them the respect they deserve along with better deals and more time to work on thier game.

i root for the femmes and empress, theres some good individual skill on those teams. ever seen bea youngs do a run through? i have. she took her left tape line in a game in tampa last year. thing of beaty.

valkyries have a lot of heart too, sorry, forgot to mention them above.

to tsc: next time pop the choad. he needs a lesson in manners.

[Target Practice]

empress is barley sponsored, they pay thier own way for the most part.
thier team members are scattered across the country and don't get to practice together regularly if at all.

i say, instead of wishing for a girl team to root for, why not root for the ones we have. maybe doing that will get them the respect they deserve along with better deals and more time to work on thier game.

i root for the femmes and empress, theres some good individual skill on those teams. ever seen bea youngs do a run through? i have. she took her left tape line in a game in tampa last year. thing of beaty.

valkyries have a lot of heart too, sorry, forgot to mention them above.

to tsc: next time pop the choad. he needs a lesson in manners.

A team should not be scattered around the country. If they are a team, shouldn't they be there to win?

Why should I root for bad paintball?

[Eric Cartman]

"Welp, looks like the LITTLE LADY shot me out! Good job, I didn't think you could do it!"

This had nothing to do with my kneebrace. This had only to do with the fact that I had boobs. You know how I know? Because every other time I played with him, at different fields, not wearing my kneebrace (Brace free for 3 months, what what)...He makes the same comments. Over and over again.

Well guys like that aren't unique to paintball. He'd probably be saying the same thing (and for the same reason) if you'd beat him at a hand of poker. Best thing to do is just keep beating him.

I've seen some girls play who got lit up and wound up crying. They didn't know what they were getting into and they were overwhelmed by it. Guys hate to see girls cry and they feel like dirt if they think they're responsible for it. In a lot of cases, he'll think that this is typical of any females playing and he'll wind up going easy on them and not giving them the respect that they (well some of 'em anyway) deserve. It's not right, but that's the way most of us are wired. It's an uphill battle for the female players who want to be taken seriously.
That's one of the good things about the masks and the baggy clothes. I can usually only tell if the person I'm shooting at is on the other team. I could care less about gender on the field.

[peewee]

All female teams are just starting out in the timeline of paintball. It will take some time to get up to speed. The main problem for women is that there are so few playing. Give it time & we will see more. Empress & the other female teams are both a marketing scheme & what I believe to be an honest attempt by the industry to show girls that they can play & compete. As far as mixed teams go there havent been to many that I know of Doggs of war had a gal that played. They never recieved much press ( the female players). The last big game that I played had about seven gals total. Of the seven two were there to whoop some @$$ & they did.

[LudavicoSoldier]

A team should not be scattered around the country. If they are a team, shouldn't they be there to win?

Why should I root for bad paintball?

I'd wager a guess that manufacturers who sponser all female "exhibition teams" could really care less if they win or not. Sex sells, sex promotes, etc., etc., etc.. There are some DAMN GOOD female players out there, but rarely are there enough in one area to put together a team that can practice as much as your average team (male or coed).

I see plenty of females play at fields around here. Heck, my GF has played, and loves the adrenalin rush. Wether we like it or not, there are ALOT of chauvanistic pigs that play paintball. As TSC said, it is hard for a female player to get respect in a game that is dominated by men. This is just on the rec field mind you, not even close to tournament play.

I am all for getting my arse kicked by females. I give mad respect to any woman who comes to the field to play ball. The tournament scene, IMHO, has made a bad name for women (in paintball). People dont necessarily think of women in terms of their playing capacity, if you know what I mean...

[minimag03]

I think it is kinda simple. If they get paid for doing nothing, and no one is stopping them.

[LudavicoSoldier]

And it not like guys are going to stop staring at them...

[nato]

guy asks me: "what in the world would compell you to play a sport such as paintball"
I answer: "20 guys to every chick"
so in my case, yes sir you are correct.

I cheered because I loved to watch the guys show off. I played co-ed softball because I liked being around guys. I played Basket ball at the local hoop cause the guys thought a girl couldn't do it, and it was a great feeling to stuff them. I played tackle football along with the boys at the local park cause I liked having one of them pass me in the hall and say "great spiral yesterday". But through all of these I learned things from the guys about the sports(cause I must admit I was not very good at any of them, although i tried); and about guys in genral just by being around them.
Females tend to be driven by attention, that is why they dress they way they do and act the way they do, and apperently that is why they play the way they do..Just how we are in my opinion.
As long as guys are giving the girls attention, the girls will accept it. :hail:
~steph
disclaimer: this is the opinon of me, and only me, as usual there will be some that disagree.. :)

Bravo!!! :dance:

N.A.T.O.

[Target Practice]

I think it is kinda simple. If they get paid for doing nothing, and no one is stopping them.

I think it's sad when people can't see through the thin veneer of celebrity and who fall all over themselves in an attempt to suck the toes of these girls (who probably don't deserve it), when they (the girls) don't give a damn.

[Toxic Dave]

Here's where things get banged up, there are a bunch of decent, if not really good female paintball players in the world, the problem is that they tend to be on teams that are predominantly made up of players who are there not because they are good players, but because they are female. I don't honestly belive that all of the women who are playing on teams are there to get attention, they are there to play, but because they are women, they get sponsorship and publicity that Dynasty would wish for.

The issue is that players who aren't very good, are put on the field with some of the best players in the world and they get whooped up on.

A Small List of good female paintball players

Ashley Nobel
Karen Barber (in her day)
Andrea Martinez
Bea Youngs
Keely (wasn't bad back in the day)
Misty Silva
Spring Winters (back in the day too)
The Girl that played for Nasty a couple years ago was pretty good too.

I'm sure I'm missing a few, no disrespect is intended, I've neved seen Destiny play, but they finished pretty well in HB

Fact is there is no reason that there aren't tons more really good female paintball players other than them, in fact they have an advantage in that most females are much smaller than males, thus tougher targets.

dave

[Kevmaster]

A sponsor promoting a team that will produce cash for the sponsor is their dream. Nike doesn't sponsor DUke because they want us to win. They want us to wear a swoosh on our shorts and have millions see it and say 'damn..duke wears nike, so should i'. Thats what they want. They want to make money by having us wear their stuff. They give us their stuff because we're popular which is a byproduct of us winning.

Now, if you want to argue on how a team becomes popular in paintball (hot vs. wins) thats ligit. But don't blame sponsors for seeing what, in essense, is a cash cow and putting some money into it. They're making more than they're putting in, you can rest assured of that.

[Target Practice]

Now, if you want to argue on how a team becomes popular in paintball (hot vs. wins) thats ligit. But don't blame sponsors for seeing what, in essense, is a cash cow and putting some money into it. They're making more than they're putting in, you can rest assured of that.

That's not what we're talking about though. We fully understand the concept of advertising and marketing and making money. We're fine with that. Just don't pass it off as legitimate paintball, because it's not.

[CodeMA]

wow... theres a lot of bashing... why dont we start a thread about EVERY single group of players that are below standards.... lets say not in the top 10 at the majority of their events no matter what Divison or format they play, what they wear for whatever reason, look hes sooo young and small his setup is as big as him!

WHO CARES?!?!

In every group there will be players who are posers, suck, and think there something special... Do some female/teams do this... uhhh ya they do, no doubt and they such just as much as any other player/team that does that no matter what they play/shoot/do/etc.... Female players/teams on a noteable level are just so few and far between(and NOTICEABLE due to yes, there marketablity) that they get bagged on all the time...its BS, but it happens.... Its the same deal with the little 11yr olds walking around the feild every weekend with head to toe dye gear, multiple 1k+ dollar setups, etc that dont play, they tend to stand out among walkons, so they take a lot of heat(and with good reason) BUT, you do ocationaly run across a few that can ball it up...

Female players CAN make it, BUT finding dedication, and enough girls to form a dedicated team is a problem, all male teams dont exactly have this problem, in any givin area, you can find atleast 7 killers that can pratice 1-6 times a month.... but at this point in time, theres not many areas were you can do that in an all female situation.... Dedication is whats missing...


Femmes most reconized female team in the world, their kind, deffently what whats being talked about here, when you have a requirement to look good, stay looking good, and be sexy all the time or your cut.... theres a problem there... Sure, they have all the cool stuff because of it, and have some great gals on there team, Im not gonna totally bash those girls because of their pratices... BUT they could most deffently stand to step up there game, pratice more and genrally learn to play and enteract as a TEAM, some of them really need to learn there equipment better too...SOME of their players are stright up ballers and do a lot for their team though, this is true, but they cant carry the team..... again, this is the same with any team... MORE dedicated players that know their stuff...

Now lets look at a very sucessfull, dedicated, hardworking co-ed(mostly female) team.... Destiny... The girls on this team are VERY dedicated, sure a few of them party and prolly have reputations(like a lof of male players) BUT they can back it up ON the feild too... These guys and gals pratice every weekend, have great sponsors, great coachs, regularly pratice with GOOD teams with good coaches, AND help coach a very sucessfull team that they have helped see up from Rookie to Novice in a proper 1 year time frame....
All the girls on that team are DEDICATED, make there pratices, play there game, make there moves, and DO GREAT.... Sure, there are guys on the team, but the majority are girls, and the best players play... Watch the games, the guys deffently dont carry the girls.... and the girls most deffently dont get/want special treatment...they screw up, they get an ear full, get mad at themselves, etc.... like any other upper level player/team... If girls want role models someone to model there game after, this is the team to watch....Expect them to place in the top 8 for the NPPL season in Div 2...


Sarah, be mean balla, give the holes some extra love so they cant cheat, if there cheating make em not want to anymore....When they ask why they took an extra 10 to the back as they walked off, tell them its because your a girl and didnt know any better ;)

If girls were dedicated, could get the coaching and experiance/pratice with GOOD players/teams, had a lot of the on/off feild pratices as upper level players, they to would be just as good as any of the "good" players teams....



To conclude... Dont generalize, its stupid.... I do feel sorry female players, it is teams like the Femmes that have put stigmas on you ladies and created mass bashing all over for every little thing... If your serious about playing...then ignore all the lamers, rude comments, rumors, bashing, etc that you will receive, and get out there and mow faces... Be like other good players, male or female.... Guys, dont bash girls, if you see a female with potential on the feild... tell her, dont baby her, tell her what she did right, what she could have done better, if shes serious about the sport, she will take it properly and thank you for it...

[mandatory]

well my girlfriends first games were this weekend at AO norcal vs socal. she had a wonderfull time and was even bunkered twice on the airball field by one of those tourny guys there. she hung in there. As for a competitive female team not existing, this idea runs rampit through all sports. why cant women preform as well as men? I dont know. maybe it has something to do with how we call women who get really into sports or fisycally agressive "tomboys" or "dykes". its a double edge sword, they have to give up their gender, so to speak, to achieve the male level, only to be ridiculed for being masculine. I think you should accept them for who they are and if they desire to get better and excell in a male dominated sport, they deserve all our support. why segrigate the game. dont you want to see more women at the field?..I sure do.

[Codekevin0403]

To give you my honest opinion, and this is in no way trying to be offensive to anybody, but i really think that the girls in paintball are just objects in the game to try and attract the main customers-the hard-headed guys who wanna get shot to show off the welts to their friends-so they can get some good buisness. Anyways, anyone see a bad-looking girl as a spokesperson? No way, no how, they won't get no kathy-bates-look-a-like to show off their equipment

[Target Practice]

CodeMA....

You're just proving our point.

"Female teams CAN'...then why don't they? Why aren't they? Why are they put together for across the country, and not a team of people who you know, knew each other beforehand. If they're so dedicated to the sport, why aren't they making the sacrifices their male counterparts are, and practicing every weekend?

"When they ask why they took an extra 10 to the back as they walked off, tell them its because your a girl and didnt know any better "

And reenforce what they think and make myself look like a 'tard? I don't think so.

I respect myself far too much for that. And I respect the other girls who just want to come out to the field, and not get comments like "I hope she's smarter than that other dumb bit..."

"If girls were dedicated, could get the coaching and experiance/pratice with GOOD players/teams, had a lot of the on/off feild pratices as upper level players, they to would be just as good as any of the "good" players teams...."

Why aren't they dedicated? Why don't these untapped resources of talent have people wanting to coach them? Why don't they practice? Because they forgot whey they started playing paintball, because they got too caught up in their own hype.

Kevmaster- Oh yeah. Nike doesn't sponsor players who suck. They sponsor good teams/players who will attatch a good name and image to Nike. That's why when professional players screw up, they tend to lose their sponsorships.


All of these posts are just proving our point...


Female teams CAN compete, and CAN whoop arse. Why don't they? And why, even if they don't, do they get the recognition that hard-working male teams do...And then run with it? And then do nothing with the respect they do get-- like playing hard and proving people right.


Ninja edit: Whoops, this is TSC, sorry 'bout that.

[Carbon]

cathy bates :rofl:

[tsc]

well my girlfriends first games were this weekend at AO norcal vs socal. she had a wonderfull time and was even bunkered twice on the airball field by one of those tourny guys there. she hung in there. As for a competitive female team not existing, this idea runs rampit through all sports. why cant women preform as well as men? I dont know. maybe it has something to do with how we call women who get really into sports or fisycally agressive "tomboys" or "dykes". its a double edge sword, they have to give up their gender, so to speak, to achieve the male level, only to be ridiculed for being masculine. I think you should accept them for who they are and if they desire to get better and excell in a male dominated sport, they deserve all our support. why segrigate the game. dont you want to see more women at the field?..I sure do.

They don't excel in the game. They go to the field to get noticed. And women in paintball can compete at the same level as men-- paintball is the one sport, outside of shooting sports maybe, in which gender differences...don't mean jack.

We want to see good female teams, but all we see is the crappy teams who pretend to play because it gets them money and attention.

Slightly tangental question: Did your girlfriend ask you to take her to play, or did you ask her to?


To give you my honest opinion, and this is in no way trying to be offensive to anybody, but i really think that the girls in paintball are just objects in the game to try and attract the main customers-the hard-headed guys who wanna get shot to show off the welts to their friends-so they can get some good buisness. Anyways, anyone see a bad-looking girl as a spokesperson? No way, no how, they won't get no kathy-bates-look-a-like to show off their equipment

Yep. And this would be fine-- if they just came out and said it. But the veneer of a 'real paintball player' gets real old, real fast. If your all-girl team is full of real players...prove it. Go win some tourneys...or even games! Don't have a merchandise line. Spend the time they're asking you to spend at photoshoots practicing instead. Show some desire to win on the field, and get a little dirty. Don't act like a princess just because you can.

[LudavicoSoldier]

My GF asked ME if she could come play. Guess she wanted to get a piece of my other GF, the paintball gun. :D

[Target Practice]

My GF asked ME if she could come play. Guess she wanted to get a piece of my other GF, the paintball gun. :D

You know, I'd be interested in knowing her motives. Perhaps you could ask her? You have to tell her to be PERFECTLY honest. If she said she wanted to go to spend time with you, or take part in something that you take part in, that's fine. If she's doing it to get attention from you or anyone else, then you can't say that she wanted to play for the sport of it.

[CodeMA]

TSC...."Why aren't they? Why are they put together for across the country, and not a team of people who you know, knew each other beforehand. If they're so dedicated to the sport, why aren't they making the sacrifices their male counterparts are, and practicing every weekend? "

EXACTLY MY POINT.... thats what Im trying to say...thats whats missing, if MORE female/co-ed teams were like that, there wouldnt be that stigma, would there? No because there would be more truely good teams...

"When they ask why they took an extra 10 to the back as they walked off, tell them its because your a girl and didnt know any better "

The part about 'because your a girl' was scarcasim... my bad, could have been better worded.... but a few extra balls to prove a point... not generally a problem, deffently wouldnt make you look like a tard... if there cheating... they deserve a few extra... I not saying it should be a habit, but it happens... no ones going to crusify you for doing some cheater nasty....

"Why aren't they dedicated? Why don't these untapped resources of talent have people wanting to coach them? Why don't they practice? Because they forgot whey they started playing paintball, because they got too caught up in their own hype. "

Like I said, some dont care...thats the problem... Heck, rumor has it that some of the Femmes will be poseing for playboy, so ya... its groups like them that are hype, but the ones that truely want to ball, and be dedictated will find a way.... The problem is finding enough...shrugs, give it time there...

[LudavicoSoldier]

You know, I'd be interested in knowing her motives. Perhaps you could ask her? You have to tell her to be PERFECTLY honest. If she said she wanted to go to spend time with you, or take part in something that you take part in, that's fine. If she's doing it to get attention from you or anyone else, then you can't say that she wanted to play for the sport of it.

She had actually been asking to go for a couple months before I took her to go play. She wants to know when my spring opener is going to be, so she can come along and shoot some faces! :headbang:

EDIT - She cussed me out for trading off my Logic ULE Mag for a Race Lotus Cocker. Apparently she really liked the light little beast!

[Athius]

Weird Clare hasn't said anything on this thread. :rolleyes:


For me they are just spoke models but i dunno never played with any of them. But i have seen Feme Fatales games and man those women always get their asses kicked.

[Number13]

tsc: I'd be glad to play you some day. :cheers:

When Badger Ballers here at UW-Madison first started, we had a coed team and it went well. There was no slack or preference for gender--it was who wanted to play and did what it takes to improve. Immature boys need to stop imagining their competition naked and focus on their game instead.

I'd love to see a tourney circuit that requires teams to be coed open up. Or at least local leagues.

[Kevmaster]

Nike doesnt sponsor players who suck.

If it would help nike's image to sponsor players who suck, I bet they would. If they would sell more shoes because of it, I bet they would in a heartbeat. Thats the difference between paintball and basketball. A team of guys who suck in bb dont get sponsored because they suck and nike wont make money. A team of girls, who--in YOUR opinion--suck will because nike (or the paintball equivlent) will make money. its all about the moeny to the sposnors.

now, i agree that if these girls suck (i dont know if they do) theny they may not deserve to be in the league and the leage should look to put some standards in on what level teams have to play at.

[Target Practice]

in YOUR opinion

Look, crappy paintball is crappy paintball is crappy paintball. There's no two ways about it.

If they want to be a promo team, great. If they want to be a legitimate team, awesome. They are doing the former now, and calling it the latter.

This is the problem.

And now, errands.

[Cameo]

Sarah,
Go you.. You have a love for the sport. Catch that wave and ride the mutha till it dies. I understand and respect your viewpoint. You have passion...

I just choose to play for a different reason... Life is way to short, I want to enjoy myself as much as possible while I can... right now I choose paint ball as my enjoyment. I am NOT out there to harm people or be cocky or get mean about the sport. I am out there because I love people. I love to watch them, I love to listen to thier stories, most of all I like to learn from them. Yes attention is great, everyone loves attention, it makes the world go round. I like giving as well as recieving. That is JUST ME.

I did not start paint ball thinking I could get anywhere. I started cause a silly group of guys harassed me two years in a row and I thought to myslef "these people could be great fun to hang with". You know what, I was right, they are great guys to hang with and my life has been blessed just being around them.

Not every person that plays a sport does it to be the best or get noticed, that is most certainley not my goal here. I doubt if I will have what it takes to get on a "real" team (other then owners group that is). But hey, that does not bother me because my purpose is being served. I am being entertained by this sport and the people who play it. I am learning so much and enhancing my life. What more could I ask for??
~steph

[tsc]

What wave? The wave that's trying to beat me down at every step? There is no wave for female paintball players.

It's not JUST YOU that does this for attention. It's the vast majority of females in paintball. Period. And they screw things up for the rest of us.


Not every person that plays a sport does it to be the best or get noticed, that is most certainley not my goal here.



guy asks me: "what in the world would compell you to play a sport such as paintball"
I answer: "20 guys to every chick"
so in my case, yes sir you are correct.

(snip)
Females tend to be driven by attention, that is why they dress they way they do and act the way they do, and apperently that is why they play the way they do..Just how we are in my opinion.
As long as guys are giving the girls attention, the girls will accept it.

That most certainly IS your goal. Quit trying to backpeddle, it's unbecoming. And by the way? There is no "we" there is you and them. Don't generalize, I am tired of being trivialized.

[tsc]

Like I said, some dont care...thats the problem... Heck, rumor has it that some of the Femmes will be poseing for playboy, so ya... its groups like them that are hype, but the ones that truely want to ball, and be dedictated will find a way.... The problem is finding enough...shrugs, give it time there...

Well, I've known that most of the Femmes are in it for the attention anyway.

The ones that want to play are blocked by those in the industry who make everyone think that female players suck. Simple as that. We cannot be taken seriously as long as marketing devices try to call themselves legitimate teams..and fail at playing good paintball. Guys look at that and think "So...if these girls are on a paintball team that gets sponsored out the woo-hoo...they must be the best of the best! And wow...they suck." Then they see a rec baller who happens to be female show up at their field. They are not going to assume she is on the same skill level as they.


And, since I know this arguement is going to come up...

"But TSC, you only posted this so YOU would get attention! I mean, look at the thread! Total attention grab"

That is only your ignorance speaking. I am fed up with the state of the sport, and how I am treated. If being called a hippocrite by some cro-magnon moron is a side effect of my posts, so be it; I'd rather that than being ridiculed at the field when all I want to do is own some faces.

[nippinout]

I would sell out if the opportunity ever arose. And not just for paintball. :ninja: :clap: :D :bounce: :cheers: :hail: :dance:

[tsc]

I would sell out if the opportunity ever arose. And not just for paintball. :ninja: :clap: :D :bounce: :cheers: :hail: :dance:

But that's because you're a hobo and need the cash :)

[nippinout]

But that's because you're a hobo and need the cash :)

:cry:

The truth!!! It burns!!! IT BURNS MY SOUL!!!

[PrettyKitty]

Well I am just appalled. I realize that each and every one of you has your right to have an opinion but this has really gotten out of hand!! It sounds like to me that all of you might be just a little intimidated us "women players” We have just the same amount of right to play this game as you. If you want to get ugly and talk smack lets look at it this way with the number of women that do play the average skill level is higher than the men’s. There have been women in the sport while some of you were still in diapers. And I will stoop to your level for just a moment, for those of you who think us "women players" come to paintball event to spend time with you men or boys, which ever you consider yourselves, well hope you are not so into yourselves that you feel that every women is that way. Because when we put on our jersey, pants, and mask we look like everyone else and with gun in hand and our finger on the trigger there is no such thing as gender!! : Shooting: I hope that you start giving us the respect that we deserve! And hopefully you are intelligent enough to look over the players just as in any sport that are not into the game for the right reasons, men, women, vendors, lawyers and sponsors! I hope that I have given you a little better understanding of the game us "WOMEN PLAYERS" play!!!!!!

[nippinout]

Because when we put on our jersey, pants, and mask we look like everyone else and with gun in hand and our finger on the trigger there is no such thing as gender!!

But if I shoot you (a female) in the junk, nothing happens. Where am I going to get my evil junk-shooting joy from?

[Cameo]

What wave? The wave that's trying to beat me down at every step? There is no wave for female paintball players.

It's not JUST YOU that does this for attention. It's the vast majority of females in paintball. Period. And they screw things up for the rest of us.

That most certainly IS your goal. Quit trying to backpeddle, it's unbecoming. And by the way? There is no "we" there is you and them. Don't generalize, I am tired of being trivialized.

was refering to attention from companies and such.. Now attention from team mates great. If I did not like attention I would not work in the Service Industry for a living :p

People always do things for different reasons. One persons reason will always be different from anothers. Just have to learn to respect other's choices. Don't put a person down for playing the sport no matter what the reason. We want to promote the sport, not cause hostility in it.

If every player on the field could learn to respect we would have no need for the refs. But alas we do not live in a perfect world, and one person can not change anything. All you can do is show the world what you are made of and hope you make an impact.

If the pro girls want fame, why not let them have it?? If tcs wants to get down and rough and be the best damn player then I say go for it, but never let what others say get to you. Ignoring the nay sayers will be the biggest leap that you could take in this or any sport. If girls want to play paint ball to be around thier guy more, great! Give that girl the time of her life while she is spending time with her man. All I ask is that I get the interaction with people and a hug here and there when I play. That is what I am on the paint ball field for. Paintball is Enjoyment :shooting:
GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE
~steph

[tsc]

Well I am just appalled. I realize that each and every one of you has your right to have an opinion but this has really gotten out of hand!! It sounds like to me that all of you might be just a little intimidated us "women players” We have just the same amount of right to play this game as you. If you want to get ugly and talk smack lets look at it this way with the number of women that do play the average skill level is higher than the men’s. There have been women in the sport while some of you were still in diapers. And I will stoop to your level for just a moment, for those of you who think us "women players" come to paintball event to spend time with you men or boys, which ever you consider yourselves, well hope you are not so into yourselves that you feel that every women is that way. Because when we put on our jersey, pants, and mask we look like everyone else and with gun in hand and our finger on the trigger there is no such thing as gender!! : Shooting: I hope that you start giving us the respect that we deserve! And hopefully you are intelligent enough to look over the players just as in any sport that are not into the game for the right reasons, men, women, vendors, lawyers and sponsors! I hope that I have given you a little better understanding of the game us "WOMEN PLAYERS" play!!!!!!

While I'm glad you agree with us, I think you're also ignoring some of it. The female teams out there are sub-par. The vast, VAST majority of good female players are never in the spotlight, because they don't care enough to market themselves. The good players don't get noticed because these girls who 'play' on heavily-sponsored teams don't care about the sport, as they profess they do.

I don't care if they say "Yes, we play because we are a marketing tool" Because it'll be easier for the male players to distinguish them from us. I know it's not a simple request, but hey...


But if I shoot you (a female) in the junk, nothing happens. Where am I going to get my evil junk-shooting joy from?

Hey, it still hurts. Alot. :(

[tsc]

was refering to attention from companies and such.. Now attention from team mates great. If I did not like attention I would not work in the Service Industry for a living :p

People always do things for different reasons. One persons reason will always be different from anothers. Just have to learn to respect other's choices. Don't put a person down for playing the sport no matter what the reason. We want to promote the sport, not cause hostility in it.

If every player on the field could learn to respect we would have no need for the refs. But alas we do not live in a perfect world, and one person can not change anything. All you can do is show the world what you are made of and hope you make an impact.

If the pro girls want fame, why not let them have it?? If tcs wants to get down and rough and be the best damn player then I say go for it, but never let what others say get to you. Ignoring the nay sayers will be the biggest leap that you could take in this or any sport. If girls want to play paint ball to be around thier guy more, great! Give that girl the time of her life while she is spending time with her man. All I ask is that I get the interaction with people and a hug here and there when I play. That is what I am on the paint ball field for. Paintball is Enjoyment :shooting:
GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE
~steph

Grrr! Everyone's missing the point.


It does not matter that they play, or that they gain attention from it. What matters is that they pass themselves off as LEGITMATE players, and fail at being such. This makes the sport that much harder for the rest of us. Admit you're only a marketing gimmick, or get out there and be a good team.

[nippinout]

Hey, it still hurts. Alot. :(

Unless there is something about you that only your family knows about, hitting a guy in the junk is a whole lot more painful/humorous than hitting a girl in the junk. There's a reason why 20bps was made possible.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Are your "pro" girls actually anywhere near "pro" playing skill level? If you are going to be thrown into competition at a major tournament, shouldnt your team actually be of decent competitive skill level? Are they anything more than a pretty face, financed by some industry exec? Just because you hang with the pros and their sponsors doesnt make you a pro paintballer...so why pose as one? I'd have to agree with tsc in that these thrown together teams of pretty faces who may or may not be able to play at a competitive level hurt females who are just as serious about paintball as their male counterparts. In competitive respects of course. Why be a poser??

[tsc]

Are your "pro" girls actually anywhere near "pro" playing skill level? If you are going to be thrown into competition at a major tournament, shouldnt your team actually be of decent competitive skill level? Are they anything more than a pretty face, financed by some industry exec? Just because you hang with the pros and their sponsors doesnt make you a pro paintballer...so why pose as one? I'd have to agree with tsc in that these thrown together teams of pretty faces who may or may not be able to play at a competitive level hurt females who are just as serious about paintball as their male counterparts. In competitive respects of course. Why be a poser??


Correct me if I'm wrong but there are no Pro level female teams. All Am level, and you never see them even hitting the semi-finals in a tournament. What's up with that? If they're so good..

[tsc]

Unless there is something about you that only your family knows about, hitting a guy in the junk is a whole lot more painful/humorous than hitting a girl in the junk. There's a reason why 20bps was made possible.

I never said it was equally painful.

[LudavicoSoldier]

I stand corrected, I lumped all tournament level paintballers into one group for the sake of argument. :hail:

EDIT

The "pro" was in quotations in response to this:


If the pro girls want fame, why not let them have it?? If tcs wants to get down and rough and be the best damn player then I say go for it, but never let what others say get to you. Ignoring the nay sayers will be the biggest leap that you could take in this or any sport.
~steph

[Cameo]

sigh...
Sadly things will not change. Paint Ball is fuled by the same wants and desires as everything in this world. Money.. having a team of attractive females is the equivilent to having 4 A list acresses endorsing your goods. It is human nature to flock twards things that are attractive (either physically or mentally). Doesn't mean it is right, but that is the way it is..The Paint Ball companies are going to endorce what makes them money... Sex sales.

The only time things are hard for an individual is when they allow it to be..The people around you only affect you if *you* let them. Motivation and determination bring results..
~steph

[tsc]

Nip, we don't have to worry about getting hit in the boobs, either.

-TP

[nippinout]

Nip, we don't have to worry about getting hit in the boobs, either.

-TP

I do. :cry:

[tsc]

sigh...
Sadly things will not change. Paint Ball is fuled by the same wants and desires as everything in this world. Money.. having a team of attractive females is the equivilent to having 4 A list acresses endorsing your goods. It is human nature to flock twards things that are attractive (either physically or mentally). Doesn't mean it is right, but that is the way it is..The Paint Ball companies are going to endorce what makes them money... Sex sales.

The only time things are hard for an individual is when they allow it to be..The people around you only affect you if *you* let them. Motivation and determination bring results..
~steph

No, an individual is not the arbiter of all things which happen to them. Simple as that. Why ios there a stigma against single mothers? Because some of them are trashy, useless, and horrible mothers. They screw it up for the responsible single mothers who work their butts off and raise their children correctly.

I am motivated, and I am determined-- What do you think I'm doing here? Even though it looks (and feels) like I'm just slamming my head against a wall, I'm hoping to change the attitudes or actions of at least one person. That's all I want.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Nip, we don't have to worry about getting hit in the boobs, either.

-TP

Getting hit in the nipple sucks real bad for men too! Ouch... :ninja:

[jewie27]

We have the Femme Fatales and Team Empress. That's a start.....

[tsc]

We have the Femme Fatales and Team Empress. That's a start.....


Of what?

[Muzikman]

Cameo, It's "Paintball"...one word:)

[Target Practice]

We have the Femme Fatales and Team Empress. That's a start.....

Did you even read the thread?

[Miscue]

This thread is interesting, but it seems to be a bit one-sided and I'm going to throw in something different.

It's difficult to put together a decent guy team that doesn't evaporate after a short time, and much more difficult to put together a decent girl team. There are WAY more guys interested in this game than girls, and their reasons for liking it may be different. For an all girl team to stick together for some period... I think it makes sense that they might come from different parts of the country, and I don't see anything wrong with this - and a local team of girls is a stroke of luck... that there are enough in an area.

I think that all girl teams are novelty teams at the moment. Is this inherently bad? No, I don't think so. An all pump team is a novelty team at a tourny, and I think that's cool to see... good for them!

A co-ed team makes more sense for the girls who are somewhat more serious about paintball. Individual girls will be able to shine more because you can play better when your team is better. And this way they can separate themselves from those who just do it for the attention. Hell, I do things just for attention too... but I didn't just admit to that. ;)

If they enjoy the game more this way then great - if not, then that's fine too. I'm content with AO events, local walk-ons, and occassional local tournies and stuff. I don't really want to work at this game to be competitive and compete at the big stuff - that's not my idea of fun. I value the social part of the game, and I might not even do paintball anymore if it weren't for that. Does that make me a poser, squid, etc? I don't think so. Screw you if you think that! :p

What I get out of paintball is my own personal thing. If I loved the feeling of getting shot by paintballs, and that was the whole reason why I played - but it is not why you play - then more power to me! If the girls are enjoying what they are doing, however they go about paintball - good for them.

If they aren't very good, and act like they are - it is kind of funny, and it can get obnoxious really, if they push it... and yeah, I don't respect that kind as players... they are one of paintball's anomolies with how much attention they get, sponsorship, etc. Guys do this crap too - actually, they are way more notorious for this. Maybe girls get more grief about it because it's so normal for guys, but not so for girls. Hell, I know I suck but mouth off.

I would be tickled pink if an all girl team of strong players beat the snot out of the guy teams. I'd be a fanboy!

TSC and others... I feel for you and wish things were different. Keep trying to make the most out of it and be the exception to the rule. Everyone might not know, but you will, and some people will notice too and respect you for it.

[tsc]

I would be tickled pink if an all girl team of strong players beat the snot out of the guy teams. I'd be a fanboy!

TSC and others... I feel for you and wish things were different. Keep trying to make the most out of it and be the exception to the rule. Everyone might not know, but you will, and some people will notice too and respect you for it.


Your 'Strong team' is the issue. It would be impossible for a male team to have the kind of teamwork, communication, and knowledge of everyone else's style of play if they came from all corners of the country too.

Imagine...the Chippendales paintball team(mmm...Chippendales..Erm, sorry). The most attractive, studly men-types from across the nation. They practice once a month, maybe. They say they're a legitimate team, but win few games, and no titles. They'd be laughed off of the field-- why is this different for women? If the industry is all for the equality of women in paintball, why are the sub-par players coddled and pampered, when if they were male...they'd be told exactly what they did wrong, why, how to change it, and if they kept screwing up, they'd be off the team!


I speak for myself in that...I don't want to be noticed. I hate it. I want to go play, and to be treated like all of the male players out there-- trashtalked, but the SECOND I stepped onto that field, regarded as someone who is a serious threat to your team's victory. Not a novelty. I don't want respect for being a good female player-- I want respect for being a good player.

I feel like I'm just rehashing what I've been saying, but I just can't think of any other way to put it...

[Lee]

Imagine...the Chippendales paintball team(mmm...Chippendales..Erm, sorry). The most attractive, studly men-types from across the nation.


they already tried to recruit me, but i'm just too busy ...... :D

[Eric Cartman]

Imagine...the Chippendales paintball team(mmm...Chippendales..Erm, sorry). The most attractive, studly men-types from across the nation.

If paintball was a sport dominated by women, then there would be all beefcake teams.
That'd be pretty funny actually.

I'm sure there are plenty of females playing tennis who aren't big fans of Anna Kournikova...

[SCpoloRicker]

We have the Femme Fatales and Team Empress. That's a start.....

d'oh!

tsc: just to steer in a new direction, do you think a stronger performing, all-female team on the national amateur level would encourage more ladies to play, with commitment, at our* level of play?

*our meaning basically what Brian said: AO events, walk-on with friends, occasional regional tourny

[RobAGD]

I Hope this will add a little bit to the mix with some info from someone that has been playing for a long time, with and against women paintballers.

The all Women teams while it may seem they have full boat rides don’t, they get gear and entrance fees and the stuff that GETS them to event to show off the gear and get the attention. Problem is they can’t get the $$ to put together a strong support/practice system.

Empress had a deal for entrance and gear but didn’t have much else, that hurt them as they almost never got to practice, but it did get them face time and game time. Problem with that is they tended to get rolled rather quickly so they really couldn’t learn much from that.

The fems suffer from the same problem from my experience and they have even more internal strife that I think almost any one knows of. Hell guys have egos women have egos and any one with a hint of good sponsorship tends to have extra amounts of ego.

I have watched women play paintball for 10+ years starting with the Lady Tree Dancers, Iron Maidens, Pevs Angels, Fems, Empress etc and it’s almost painful to watch. First thing I would say is they look like that have no idea what that thing in their hands if for, it looks like that have never handled it and it’s not a part of them.

Then there is the aggression factor. Men and women are different in that, it’s a fundamental thing. Paintball no matter what someone say is quite a bit about aggression, attacking and shooting. I think that comes a bit more naturally to men than women. Is it something women can learn sure, but I don’t think the women’s teams are being coached well in that since. Heck I have seen guys that are not aggressive enough but it stands out more when you watch women playing for some reason. I don’t think it’s an expectation thing but if you’re going to draw attention to yourselves then you’re going to get the brunt of the criticism.

It’s going to be years before there are enough women players that have the skills to compete at the pro level, but the good things is if the Fems, Empress, and other women’s teams help get more women out and playing that good for the sport and will ultimaty feed into the tourney level players.

Just a small note: an NXL team’s budget for a year is around 250-500k min. That’s everything, training, paint, travel hotels etc if someone wanted to have a competitive female team you would be looking at an investment of 3 years, $750k to 1.25m to get a team that I think could honestly compete. That would be getting all the players into a local area, working outs training, practice, then playing everything they can make for the next several years to get experience. You’re not going to see a split team be overly successful until you can tie it all together.

-Robert

[Thordic]

First thing I would say is they look like that have no idea what that thing in their hands if for, it looks like that have never handled it and it’s not a part of them.


I just almost fell out of my chair. Hahahahahaha.

[tsc]

d'oh!

tsc: just to steer in a new direction, do you think a stronger performing, all-female team on the national amateur level would encourage more ladies to play, with commitment, at our* level of play?

*our meaning basically what Brian said: AO events, walk-on with friends, occasional regional tourny


Nope. Not unless the attitudes of people at our level changed-- Which, I think, is alot harder than just getting a good female team. People don't like to have to change, period. I think for a very long time, the comments would be "Well, she's not as good as Team XXXXX, that's for sure." Or "Hah, she's not even on an Am team, how can she be good?".

Alot of it is ingrained-- guys don't like to be beaten by girls.

Plus...it's still an icky nasty sport. You get HURT. You're sore for days afterwards. You get bloody bruises that leave scars. You love every second of it, but it still is a crappy way to spend your Monday, looking like a really bad herpes case.. :) The majority of girls out there don't 'do' icky nasty.

The commitment part is big too. That takes a certain kind of person, and as everyone at our level knows...it's not easy sometimes, to be commited. All of your stuff breaks, you keep getting hit 4 seconds into the game, some days you can't even play because of how crappy your paint/gear/mask is. It gets pretty damn frustrating sometimes. Add this ontop of the feeling that absolutely no one wants you there...yeah. Like I said, it all goes back to the attitudes changing, and even if there was a strong, honest female team, the attitudes would stay the way they are for a long time.



Heck I have seen guys that are not aggressive enough but it stands out more when you watch women playing for some reason. I don’t think it’s an expectation thing but if you’re going to draw attention to yourselves then you’re going to get the brunt of the criticism.

It's true...you look at a female team playing, and they all look great at the break, amble over to their bunkers....and stay there for the rest of the game. It's confusing! And when one member is eliminated...they don't move to fill her ho--er, spot. They leave a big gap which obviously needs to be covered. I *though* that constantly moving forward was one of the fundamental things in paintball.

And yeah, it does take a certain amount of aggression-- and none of you gimmie this "LOL PMS LOL" stuff either-- which is for some girls impossible. However, I think it can be taught easily-- show them that the more agressive they are...the more they win. Everyone likes to win, it's one hell of a motivator.

[SCpoloRicker]

Plus...it's still an icky nasty sport. You get HURT. You're sore for days afterwards. You get bloody bruises that leave scars. You love every second of it, but it still is a crappy way to spend your Monday, looking like a really bad herpes case.. :) The majority of girls out there don't 'do' icky nasty.

The commitment part is big too. That takes a certain kind of person, and as everyone at our level knows...it's not easy sometimes, to be commited. All of your stuff breaks, you keep getting hit 4 seconds into the game, some days you can't even play because of how crappy your paint/gear/mask is. It gets pretty damn frustrating sometimes. Add this ontop of the feeling that absolutely no one wants you there...yeah. Like I said, it all goes back to the attitudes changing, and even if there was a strong, honest female team, the attitudes would stay the way they are for a long time.

This almost feels like you don't think most women "can hack it." I'm probably misinterpreting; but just in case, I've had my nose broken by an 18 yr old girl when I was 22 at polo practice. They spent just as much time in the pool, hit the weight room, and beat the crap outta people. Commitment is up to an individual, and money.

A general attitude problem, on both sides, sure. But I think this is more a matter of exposure and attitudes than any sort of gender issue.

I believe lohman said something to this effect: 'ROI should be the sole factor for a firms Marketing Director. If I had to pick a team to expose my products, get press, and build hype, I'd build a team of hot girls too.' Its a good point.

[Target Practice]

I believe lohman said something to this effect: 'ROI should be the sole factor for a firms Marketing Director. If I had to pick a team to expose my products, get press, and build hype, I'd build a team of hot girls too.' Its a good point.

It seems that everyone is missing the point. This statement is fine. There is nothing wrong with using sex to sell your products. There IS something wrong about saying that a promo team who's main job is to sell products is the same as a real, honest to god team that plays for the fun and joy of the game.

[SCpoloRicker]

As a riposte: The reason that a top pro team receive sponsorship from manufacturers is they are a "real, honest to god team that plays for the fun and joy of the game"?

Or is it because they think players will purchase their gear after seeing "Team X" using it in a magazine or DVD?

I can understand your complaint from the players side; but from the manufacturer's side, sales are sales, and sex appeal is an easy way to penetrate this (young, male) audience.

They may not be a great example of "team," but they are a good example of "sponsorship."

[tsc]

This almost feels like you don't think most women "can hack it." I'm probably misinterpreting; but just in case, I've had my nose broken by an 18 yr old girl when I was 22 at polo practice. They spent just as much time in the pool, hit the weight room, and beat the crap outta people. Commitment is up to an individual, and money.



That's exactly what I'm saying.

It's true.

If it wasn't, there'd be more female players.

[Lohman446]

Lets discuss return on investment - I have three hypothetical teams that I have a chance to sponsor. All three teams will compete in division 2 for now.

Team A is a traditional male team. They are all from the same area, they practice together on a reasonable basis, and they work well together. Given four years or so, if kept together, they will be able to move to Div 1 and compete.

Team B is a lot like team A, except that they are composed of "non-cover girl" material women of equal skill to team A and equal chance of succeeding.

Teacm C is a group of "cover-girl" material woman. They have no place in Division 2, come from all over the country and will likely get rolled while playing. However, we will have posters made up of them in less than paintball gear and holding one of our products?

Which team, is going to maximize the investment? What if I make it a little different. What if I'm Dye playing at Chicago and I can take a competetive team, like the Ironmen or someone and put a spokesmodel on the side in X-ball as a coach. Now apparently this spokesmodels job is to jump up and down as much as coach... but how many people do you think will note her? I was there last year... she had a lot of attention :D and her bouncing up and down... well appeared planned. This was a comibination of sex and paintball, which I think we are going to see. I would not be surprised to see a "cover-girl" player on established teams (Strange / Dynasty) playing only occassionally but being a very visible presence. Combining the two marketting strategies of winning and sex.

[Lohman446]

What about paintball favors men?

There is no phyiscal contact by the rules.

Are men naturally more aggressive? Sure.. but its a trained response in paintball. I mean look at most new players.. they hide behind bunkers.

Are men quicker? How much does speed really matter... yes men may be naturally quicker (I don't even know that) but we are not pushing the edges of physique in paintball at this point.

My point is, there is no reason that a good female team could not be put together, however those putting together female teams seem more concerned about selling based on sex than putting a real team together. Then again, selling based on sex works as better than all but the best of winning teams, at least in my opinion without looking at numbers that the companies hold.

[gc82000]

I will lose a lot of respect for a team to add a "covermodel" to their roster just so they can have that little amount of sex appeal. Let's take Dynasty for example, they are the number one team after Huntington Beach and they are a team that wants to stay number one for as long as possible. Adding a Cover girl to that team might make them look like they are just trying to be all about the money. If teams really wanted to add sex appeal to their team without losing respect as players they should ask for cheerleaders. Hell it wont hurt them as a team and they would never even have to play a single game and never have to wear the all to cumbersome PB gear. :rolleyes:

The female stars you are talking about are stars and divas in this industry, but nothing more. To me and many of my friends they are just attractive distraction to the testosterone saturated world called Paintball. I dont think of them as true players but I have respect for them simply for the fact that they are willing to get shot and bruised for cash. :argh:

[Lohman446]

Let's take Dynasty for example, they are the number one team after Huntington Beach and they are a team that wants to stay number one for as long as possible.

Dynasty walked away from the sponsor that helped them get to number one a couple years ago. To me, it was about the money then. Personally I make no judgement on it, but I think it does prove a distinct point that Dynasty is in it for the $$

[tyrion2323]

Target Practice - maybe you should spend a bit more time worrying about yourself and less time complaining about a problem that doesn't affect you.

Or...

Perhaps the reason that women avoid paintball and never get the attention they deserve is because of attitudes like yours...

[Lohman446]

Target Practice - maybe you should spend a bit more time worrying about yourself and less time complaining about a problem that doesn't affect you.

Or...

Perhaps the reason that women avoid paintball and never get the attention they deserve is because of attitudes like yours...

Because the purpose of this board is to discuss issues in paintball. Judging by the replies to this thread it is an issue in paintball. And I think you will find this issue effects TP more directly than you would think at first glance.

[Target Practice]

Target Practice - maybe you should spend a bit more time worrying about yourself and less time complaining about a problem that doesn't affect you.

Or...

Perhaps the reason that women avoid paintball and never get the attention they deserve is because of attitudes like yours...

Well, considering my girlfriend (who has been playing almost twice as long as me, and who can whomp me six ways from Sunday) is looked down upon and her skills are flat out ignored everytime we go to the field, I'd say this affects me.

Please, elaborate on how my attitudes make "women avoid paintball and never get the attention they deserve". Did you even read what I've been saying? I want the women players who deserve respect to get it, based on skills and game, not because they happen to have boobs and are holding a marker.

[SCpoloRicker]

On physical differences, or, women can't play at the same level as men:

Ever notice that a lot of paintball players are overweight? I know at the top levels this may self-select itself out, but we're not the fittest breed...

I also like the issue posed by Lohman about which of three teams is best for a manufacturer. IMO, as the amount of women playing seriously, but casually (like tsc, or other AO'ers not on tourney squads) increases; option 2, a competitive, local female team will become a more viable option.

Right now, there aren't enough female players in the game to support investment in competitive female teams.

[Target Practice]

The female stars you are talking about are stars and divas in this industry, but nothing more. To me and many of my friends they are just attractive distraction to the testosterone saturated world called Paintball. I dont think of them as true players but I have respect for them simply for the fact that they are willing to get shot and bruised for cash.

Exactly. For example, at our shop, we had a poster of an Empire girl right next to the front door, which was always open. She wasn't much of a looker, but people didn't look at her face.... Anyhoo, that poster brought in more guys then I don't know what.

As I've said, this is fine. We made sales. But, don't give them the respect that you would give to real paintballers, because they're not.

[gc82000]

Dynasty walked away from the sponsor that helped them get to number one a couple years ago. To me, it was about the money then. Personally I make no judgement on it, but I think it does prove a distinct point that Dynasty is in it for the $$
I knew someone was gonna bring that up. Okay Dyantsty did go for the sponsor ship to change guns, but during that time they were usin IR3s which weren't that fast (accurate and durable yes but not fast enough). Especially when being compared to timmys, trixies and at the time Shockers. :rolleyes:
But I have been hearing rumors that Dynasty ight change their sponsorship yet again after their contract is up. dont take my word for it.

TP i think i know tha poster you are talking about, my friend has on in his shops bathroom. :rolleyes:

[Alley]

Well, I haven't really had much chance to play paintball. So, my opinion might not matter much but, I'd like to give it anyway. I am a competive person. I like to play most sports. It is quite unfortunate that paintball is a mostly male dominant sport. But, that being said I dont think all females are attention driven, I want to play for pure competition .....winning is fun and if it happens to be against men or women its all the same in the end. When you are on the field I would hope that your not thinking Hey is that a girl or a guy i'm shooting at ....It like any sport is hopefully for the love of the game and the good feeling of a game well played. I think those who are attention seeking should wear those fluffy little skirts put on their water bras and jump up and down on the sidelines as useless cheerleaders. To distract the braindead guys on the field so I can shoot them way easier!
Thank you for my time on the soap box. I am done :)

[Cameo]

Just a side note that was pointed out to me...
More often then not the females that can not get attention easily (wheather they are not the most personable or they "hold" themselves wrongly) tend to be the ones that put down the girls who can get and like attention. People learn to deal with thier situations differently...Some in a positive manner, others in a negitive manner.
I would wager that any girl that is on the same "level" in what God gave her would not think ill on the "stars" of paintball. Unless of course she was trying to get thier job.

[Lohman446]

People are going to get out of there league of skill with attitude. I have a certain attitude around paintball, and it has thrust me into levels of play, levels of leadership that I am certainly not, based on my skills in paintball, supposed to be at. Its not skill that has put me there, its attitude, well attitude coupled with a few cases of astoundingly good luck. But the thing is, that attitude allows everyone to see those rare cases of luck as skill, and those normal cases of lack of skill as lack of luck.

How many people think that skill is all of it. I know of at least three players on my team that are unquesionably better than I am at what they do. I have seen it, I know it by game play. Yet I get more respect for the team, more credit for victories, than they do. Is it fair to them? Not at all - but skill takes you so far, and attitude takes you so far. One can overcome the other...

[CoolHand]

. . . . . skill takes you so far, and attitude takes you so far. One can overcome the other...

And that's why people don't see paintball as a sport . . . . . . . .

Name a single other professional sport where "attitude" and how you carry yourself can overcome a lack of skill. And Pro Wrestling does not count.

That was two absolutely wonderful posts in a row. One that boils it down to the bare essentials when women are arguing - "The ugly girls are just jealous that they can't get 'insert whatever is being argued over' based on their looks alone. If they were pretty too, they wouldn't have a problem with it." Followed directly by teh paintball persona so prevalent that it hedges on clique' - "My team mates are better at the game than me, and basically carry the team, but I talk the talk better, so I get all the glory, therfore I am the better overall PB player."

Those two jems were just too good to pass up. :rofl:

[Alley]

Ok, I have a question.......Do the guys play paintball for the attention? Or because they like to play and are good at it? If your main attraction to paintball is ..attention, why excatly are you playing it and not just being some eye candy standing in a booth sporting the lastest paintball gun but, no idea how to actually use it? and leave the playing to those who have some skill base and not hope they they can woo their fellow team member to glance their way just because they can figure out how to pull a trigger? Thank you have a nice day...and please stay seated until the ride comes to a complete stop! :)

[Lohman446]

And that's why people don't see paintball as a sport . . . . . . . .

Name a single other professional sport where "attitude" and how you carry yourself can overcome a lack of skill. And Pro Wrestling does not count.

That was two absolutely wonderful posts in a row. One that boils it down to the bare essentials when women are arguing - "The ugly girls are just jealous that they can't get 'insert whatever is being argued over' based on their looks alone. If they were pretty too, they wouldn't have a problem with it." Followed directly by teh paintball persona so prevalent that it hedges on clique' - "My team mates are better at the game than me, and basically carry the team, but I talk the talk better, so I get all the glory, therfore I am the better overall PB player."

Those two jems were just too good to pass up. :rofl:


For the record - I do not beleive for a moment I am better than anyone on my team, and I do not beleive the attitude makes me a better overall player. I think its sad that people don't see through it. I have the attitude because thats who I am... not a show for show sake. I am not a better overall player. If life was fair, I would coach the team... I would stand on the sidelines and do what I do best, be the attitude of the team. However, it doesn't work that way - if I'm not playing the "talk" doesn't work. I have been gunned for off the break because of the attitude from time to time, and it is the most useful I am to my team, except when I'm lucky, to serve as a distraction.

Examples of sports where charisma matters (sorry not to pull statistics, I don't really love sports) Nascar - Earnhardt Jr. is where in the standings for the past few years and where in $$ for sponsorship? Basketball - in the past few years was Rodman really all that? Baseball - Ozzie Smith.

These people all have great skill - but there charisma carries them further than skill alone
Im sure there are others

[CoolHand]

For the record - I do not beleive for a moment I am better than anyone on my team. I think its sad that people don't see through it. I have the attitude because thats who I am... not a show for show sake.

Examples of sports where charisma matters (sorry not to pull statistics, I don't really love sports) Nascar - Earnhardt is where in the standings for the past few years and where in $$ for sponsorship? Basketball - in the past few years was Rodman really all that? Baseball - Ozzie Smith.

These people all have great skill - but there charisma carries them further than skill alone
Im sure there are others

Racing is something I have spent the last ten years of my life doing. There are no parrallels to be drawn between paintball and racing. But just to prove a point (and to clarify, there are two Dale Earnhardts), IIRC, Dale Jr. finished 4th in the points last year. Pretty respectable. He also won three or four races. That is why he pulls down the big bucks. Dale Sr. is dead, his troubles are over.

If you believe for a second that anyone who sets in the seat of a Cup car is there based more on thier charm than their ability with the wheel, you are sorely mistaken. NASCAR racing is more about having a fast car, and a driver who can make use of it, not how purdy you are. Now, granted there are some pretty boys up there, but they can all drive circles around lesser compedators. They got there because they are good, being good looking is just a side bonus for them. Sponsors want a winning team first and foremost, having an articulate and good looking spokesman is icing on the cake.

I don't follow basket ball or base ball, you may be right on those, though Ozzy was damned good in his day.

Charisma may help you become a star once you get to the show with your skills, but it won't keep you there. Skill at the game is the only thing that will keep you in the show, everything else is secondary.

[Lohman446]

Charisma may help you become a star once you get to the show with your skills, but it won't keep you there. Skill at the game is the only thing that will keep you in the show, everything else is secondary.

I think your slightly wrong.. let me word it this way. "Skill will help you get to a level charisma will help you be a star at that level, and charisma may keep you there. You need skill to get there though"

See.. there was an error in communication, because I think you and I agree more than it shows here. There is a base need for skill - of exactly what level?? Well in paintball it is lower than other sports I think because frankly its not as big of a sport with as many players or wannabe players.

When I say my team carries me - I mean that. I could drop a division, possibly two and be in the skill set that I should be in, and be one of the top players in the area in that division. I have some skill, but it is not even average to the division I play in. When I moved up divisions, noone bothered to drop what they thought of me in this division.. they just assumed I would continue to be "good" here to. Now its all attitude that carries me, and luck. A better racing example I think may have been Mark Martin??

Skill alone will only carry you so far. Remember we were discussing female players, and I asserted they were beneficial because of there marketability. Lets say I have two teams - team A) is a great team, clearly better, but they come off as cold to the fans... they practice routine, and they play a very technical, very sound game. They are #1 team B) is a very good team. They play together well, with some off handed strategies and some show boating that costs them games. They intermingle with the fans and take things a bit less seriously. They are the #2 team

Which team is a better sponsorship deal? Which one will sell more gear, will be more admired?

[Miscue]

Ok, I have a question.......Do the guys play paintball for the attention? Or because they like to play and are good at it? If your main attraction to paintball is ..attention, why excatly are you playing it and not just being some eye candy standing in a booth sporting the lastest paintball gun but, no idea how to actually use it? and leave the playing to those who have some skill base and not hope they they can woo their fellow team member to glance their way just because they can figure out how to pull a trigger? Thank you have a nice day...and please stay seated until the ride comes to a complete stop! :)

Guys like attention too, but I think that they prefer to pursue it through triumph and accomplishments - success. This sort of thing makes a man more attractive than it would for a woman.

If you're a curvaceous babe and drive an '87 Buick - the guys do not care. They won't even see the car, they're concentrating on the T&A. Of course there is the exception. I for one am not easily distracted by T&A... at least once... maybe twice a year.

A good looking girl sees a guy in an '87 Buick - and she WILL care. Oh yes, she will. All she sees is a loser in an '87 Buick. Once again, there is the exception. Maybe that's not his real car and he stole the Buick, which makes him dangerous, exciting, and all the more attractive.

The point is, both like attention. How they are able to obtain it and how they seek it is different for the most part.

[CoolHand]

I think your slightly wrong.. let me word it this way. "Skill will help you get to a level charisma will help you be a star at that level, and charisma may keep you there. You need skill to get there though"

See.. there was an error in communication, because I think you and I agree more than it shows here. There is a base need for skill - of exactly what level?? Well in paintball it is lower than other sports I think because frankly its not as big of a sport with as many players or wannabe players.

When I say my team carries me - I mean that. I could drop a division, possibly two and be in the skill set that I should be in, and be one of the top players in the area in that division. I have some skill, but it is not even average to the division I play in. When I moved up divisions, noone bothered to drop what they thought of me in this division.. they just assumed I would continue to be "good" here to. Now its all attitude that carries me, and luck. A better racing example I think may have been Mark Martin??

Skill alone will only carry you so far. Remember we were discussing female players, and I asserted they were beneficial because of there marketability. Lets say I have two teams - team A) is a great team, clearly better, but they come off as cold to the fans... they practice routine, and they play a very technical, very sound game. They are #1 team B) is a very good team. They play together well, with some off handed strategies and some show boating that costs them games. They intermingle with the fans and take things a bit less seriously. They are the #2 team

Which team is a better sponsorship deal? Which one will sell more gear, will be more admired?

Yes, I do believe we have come to an agreement here. The charisma/skill combo is very much weighted towards floating on BS in paintball, much more so than any other real sport.

Also, I think a lot of why attitude works in PB is because of the age group of most players. Unless you are a salty old dog, when you play a new team, and they talk a good game, chances are that they will intimidate a good 60% of their adversaries into screwing something up. It has a lot to do with maturity, and how easily people are impressed/swayed. The older you get, the harder it is to be impressed/intimidated.

And I also agree that charisma is important for any pro athlete to succeed. Sponsors do want the whole package, but when it comes to men, this usually makes skill a prerequisite. As we have all seen, this is not the case when dealing with females.

You might as well get used to it, 'cause until the target group isn't 13-25 yr old males, there will be scantly clad women pushing gear, and female teams playing at the pro level, solely for the sake of their ambiance.

That said, I don't think that a woman needs respect to be good. If she's good, then she should just whoop the fire out of anyone who gets in her way, and then roll the posers when she hits the pros.

No team in their right mind (who wanted to win) would turn away a player who consistantly broke open the game, or had an elimination ratio of 10:1 simply because they were a woman. I think most guys would be stoked to have a bad *** chick on their team, if for no other reason than the she is always under rated. Its like flying a nuclear weapon in under their radar. By the time they realize they are in trouble, it will be far too late for them to do anything about it.

Just keep banging away at it, there is a lot more to life that respect and being shown your "propers". Play the game just for the game, you will eventually find a place to accel.

[Target Practice]

I would wager that any girl that is on the same "level" in what God gave her would not think ill on the "stars" of paintball. Unless of course she was trying to get thier job.

Like tsc said before, that's the ignorance talking. I wonder who "pointed it out" to you, because I think that would lead you to the source of it.


Ok, I have a question.......Do the guys play paintball for the attention? Or because they like to play and are good at it? If your main attraction to paintball is ..attention, why excatly are you playing it and not just being some eye candy standing in a booth sporting the lastest paintball gun but, no idea how to actually use it? and leave the playing to those who have some skill base and not hope they they can woo their fellow team member to glance their way just because they can figure out how to pull a trigger? Thank you have a nice day...and please stay seated until the ride comes to a complete stop!

That's the thing, guys don't get near the same level of attention as girls do from within the paintball population, which is the community in question. I never played for the "attention", I played because it was fun and I loved it from the moment I played. I hadn't even heard of it before I played with my friends in an almond orchard with Talons.


I think most guys would be stoked to have a bad *** chick on their team, if for no other reason than the she is always under rated. Its like flying a nuclear weapon in under their radar. By the time they realize they are in trouble, it will be far too late for them to do anything about it.

Lemme tell you a story about tsc real quick. We went out to play at the local field about...8-9 months ago. It was the first time she'd been playing paintball in a year (if it sounds familiar, she tells another part of this story in an earlier post), and it was the first game. She was in a full knee brace, and a wrist brace. Who did they put on her mirror? The kid who had to borrow a crap Tippmann to play his first game of paintball. Now, after that game, which she completely dominated everyone on the field (and, coincidentally, left me with nothing to do...:(), who did they put on her mirror? The two practicing tourney guys with Timmies; one of which is the jerkface in the other story.

[CoolHand]

. . . . . Now, after that game, which she completely dominated everyone on the field (and, coincidentally, left me with nothing to do...:(), who did they put on her mirror? The two practicing tourney guys with Timmies; one of which is the jerkface in the other story.

See? Now that is your (or rather her) respect. It doesn't matter what they say to your face, look at what they actually do. By double stacking those two guys to take her out, they were admitting that they could not disregard her as they did before.

This is as close as you are going to get to respect in the PB world, IMO at least. Very seldom do you see good sports anymore, to the point that you just have to gauge their respect for you by the fear they demonstrate when dealing with you.

I'm a fat "old" guy (I'm only 25, but I actually had an AGG kiddie at a field call me an old man not too long ago), who doesn't dress flashy, or curse and scream in a game. For the first couple of games in a day, I get looked at like I'm the biggest yokle (hello, redneck here). The fact that I'm fat and have a funny accent does not stop me from shooting them out though. Its funny to see how they react when they realize that I am not a noob with a borrowed marker. :rofl: I just play to have a good time, I don't want to be a super player, pro or whatever. I am happy being a redneck walkon in blue jeans and a Tshirt. I do get a good chuckle from their frustration sometimes though. :ninja:

[tsc]

Just a side note that was pointed out to me...
More often then not the females that can not get attention easily (wheather they are not the most personable or they "hold" themselves wrongly) tend to be the ones that put down the girls who can get and like attention. People learn to deal with thier situations differently...Some in a positive manner, others in a negitive manner.I would wager that any girl that is on the same "level" in what God gave her would not think ill on the "stars" of paintball. Unless of course she was trying to get thier job.



Edit: Oh, I get it. I'm jealous because I'm ugly and trying to get the pretty girls out of a job. Gotcha.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I'd really like to know who pointed that out to you, and why they think they understand my motivations. I'm willing to bet I know who, and if that's true, I know for a fact they know nothing they're talking about.

I've learned to deal with my 'situation' in the best way possible-- By trying to change it for the better, and help female players who don't like being treated like trash.


See? Now that is your (or rather her) respect. It doesn't matter what they say to your face, look at what they actually do. By double stacking those two guys to take her out, they were admitting that they could not disregard her as they did before.

It wasn't admitting a thing. They couldn't bear to lose to a girl.

And yes, it is what they say to my face (and behind my back). I don't like being called a stupid whore, or slut, or anything along those lines. Which I get. Every time I go to the field. Not by my friends, no. They stand with me. But for the vast majority of the players there, I am some stupid ho they won't lose against.

It's not an act out of respect, or recognition. It's an act out of refusing to be emasculated. There's a subtle difference there, and when it becomes the overpowering feel of people's actions towards me... it tends to ruin an otherwise good day of play.

Hell, I tech most of the time now anyway, and I have guys refusing to let me look at their marker, instead going two feet to my left to the guy sitting next to me. I used to work at a paintball store, and guys wouldn't trust my opinion..instead going to the guy two feet from me. (I had one guy come in, "Can I help you?" "No, you can't.", and ask my co-worker if we had o-rings..).

It's idiotic in paintball, sometimes, how females are treated. It's partially the 'pro' players who are everything but, it's partially the ingrained 'boys can't lose to girls' attitude, it's partially the fact there aren't enough girls in the sport for only the sport. It's partly alot of things. I try to correct ignorance, and put my best game, knowledge, and attitude out there.

I still get called a 'dumb chick' at the end of the day, by the guys who's markers I fix.
I still get looked at funny when I say that I play.
I still get told that I'm wrong. When I'm right.

And I still get told that I'm only doing it for the attention, or because I'm jealous, or because I just want to be popular.

And yet I still play this stupid sport.

[SCpoloRicker]

See? Now that is your (or rather her) respect. It doesn't matter what they say to your face, look at what they actually do. By double stacking those two guys to take her out, they were admitting that they could not disregard her as they did before.

This is as close as you are going to get to respect in the PB world, IMO at least. Very seldom do you see good sports anymore, to the point that you just have to gauge their respect for you by the fear they demonstrate when dealing with you.

I have to agree with Coolhand here. tsc, it seems like this is respect, at least on the field. The fact that some players are jerks, and misogynsts (sp?) shouldn't really be a surprise.


Ok, I have a question.......Do the guys play paintball for the attention? Or because they like to play and are good at it? If your main attraction to paintball is ..attention, why excatly are you playing it and not just being some eye candy standing in a booth sporting the lastest paintball gun but, no idea how to actually use it? and leave the playing to those who have some skill base and not hope they they can woo their fellow team member to glance their way just because they can figure out how to pull a trigger? Thank you have a nice day...and please stay seated until the ride comes to a complete stop!

Alley, I would guess there aren't many spokesmodels on this board... I'm not gonna even touch the "you're just jealous comment."

[Target Practice]

I have to agree with Coolhand here. tsc, it seems like this is respect, at least on the field. The fact that some players are jerks, and misogynsts (sp?) shouldn't really be a surprise.

I think it's not so much as respect as it's an attempt to not be made fools of. Respect would be admitting to her/anyone, "Damn, you/she plays a pretty good game. We're gonna have to look out for you/her." Does this ever get said? Hell no.

[CoolHand]

I think it's not so much as respect as it's an attempt to not be made fools of. Respect would be admitting to her/anyone, "Damn, you/she plays a pretty good game. We're gonna have to look out for you/her." Does this ever get said? Hell no.

Well, look at it this way: If you're not going to be respected in the traditional sense, then you might as well be feared.

The more they call you names, the more you've gotten over on them. People generally don't talk smack to folks they don't know, unless they are scared (or have anger problems, a la Joe Peccie "You talkin' to me?")

The more noise they make, the more impact you are having on them.

If you're going to play with *** holes (and it appears from reading that you do), then you might have to settle for fear instead, 'cause their very nature won't let them be good sports to you.

I would suggest finding new folks to play with.

[shadowspar]

You might as well get used to it, 'cause until the target group isn't 13-25 yr old males, there will be scantly clad women pushing gear, and female teams playing at the pro level, solely for the sake of their ambiance.


I think that this is true, with the exception that this mindset isn't limited to 13-25 year olds. It's a sad statement on the current state of male attitudes.

I get quite insulted when I see paintball companies trying to use sex appeal to sell their junk, because the message they're sending is that they think I'm a sexist and an idiot. When I see a Kingman ad featuring a bikini-clad blonde, the message I get is "We think that you'll forget that our 'guns are cheap junk if we wave some breasts in front of your face." When I see Smart Parts plastering `Smart Girls' all over their stuff, they're telling me "We think that you are more effectively persuaded to buy things by images of scantily-clad women than by a product's technical merits."

As an aside on SP, notice the subtly sexist (http://www.smartparts.com/Products/default.aspx) statement at the bottom of their products page:

girl gear
Do yourself a favor and buy your girl something cool.

Yeah, because if I'm browsing their webpage, I obviously couldn't be a girl who plays paintball, could I?

[CoolHand]

OK, with TSC I can see why she gets grumpy, what with being verbally abused, cheated against, and being generally regarded with the sort of disdain normally reserved for stray dogs. I understand why she is miffed.

Now, you on the other hand (shadowspar in case someone sneaks a post in between us) just need to grow a bit thicker skin. If SP's website insults you, don't go there. If you don't like PB ads in their current form, buy from companies who don't do it.

Guys have always, and will always like to look at women, especially hot nearly naked ones. Just 'cause you don't like it, does not mean it will go away. We are not pigs for doing so, we are men. It is in our nature to want women. You can't fight that. Marketing folks realize this, and push the button as often as they can. Some of us display more tact than others when dealing with these images (IE we ogle discreetly, when other women are around), but every heterosexual male is effected by this sort of thing in much the same way.

Also, in the defence of "Get over it", Hypersensivity is just another of the maladies which conspire to limit our perception of the female sex. If you (women that is) want to be taken seriously, you have to learn to deal with situations and words that you don't like. Insisting that everyone stop doing the things you don't like, instead of simply ignoring them, is PC at its worst, and does no good for the person or group making the insistance.

Case in point: Demanding that men stop looking at sexy girls (especially when they dress they way they do, which I have been told is to make men look at them), is counter to nature, and a loosing battle at best. At worst, all that flap and complaining over things that make no difference, lends a certain frivolity to your other issues that you can ill afford when trying to make a strong point.

[matt-o]

id have to say that if girls want to do well in the game they can, and its all about what they want. to generalize all girl PBers into one group isnt fair. ive met a few that play simply because they love to play ball, though i do have to say that they werent all that cute and thus not photo material. sadly i have to say that girls getting into top level teams (and then doing well and being taken seriously) isnt as easy as it would be for guys because if they are hot they would immidiately be put into a all girls team where they would constanly do photoshoots instead of practice. but if they are ugly they arent going to get onto those all female teams and wpuld tryout for a mostly male team, and as sad as it is to say it goes back to middleschool where we picked the strongest looking guys first. but in this case we woudnt be picking the ugly girls. like i said there are lots of good girl painbtallers out there. the first name that came to mind was bea youngs but i am sure there are others im not thinking about.

also is clare gonna step in and say anything here?

[SCpoloRicker]

also is clare gonna step in and say anything here?

Doubt it. Also. There's a button next to the ' key. It makes lines
do
this.

tsc: is it really surprising that, after getting worked, players with attitude (PWA?) refuse to acknowledge their defeat? I would think this is a similar response that a (male)camo-clad mag shooter would get at a lot of fields these days. Sort of a "couldn't have happened" response...

[JoshK]

Take 10-15 pretty women

Tell that to some of the members of femme fatales :tard:

But seriously...I never really pay attention to tourny ball...buy I have seen pictures...and usually they do look good during the time of the pictures...probly exactly like you said it...but I dont know.

P.S. the main body of this post was in responce of the first post...I dont have my whole night to waste away reading all the responces.

[shadowspar]

OK, with TSC I can see why she gets grumpy, what with being verbally abused, cheated against, and being generally regarded with the sort of disdain normally reserved for stray dogs. I understand why she is miffed.

Now, you on the other hand (shadowspar in case someone sneaks a post in between us) just need to grow a bit thicker skin. If SP's website insults you, don't go there. If you don't like PB ads in their current form, buy from companies who don't do it.


Exactly, and that's what I do. (Well...not the not going to the website part, but I don't buy from Kingman or Smart Parts. Or Brass Eagle, JT, Viewloader, Ronin Gear, or KAPP for that matter.)



Guys have always, and will always like to look at women, especially hot nearly naked ones. Just 'cause you don't like it, does not mean it will go away. We are not pigs for doing so, we are men. It is in our nature to want women. You can't fight that. Marketing folks realize this, and push the button as often as they can.


Indeed. I just wonder why I'm the only one that finds it objectionable -- not in some kind of moralizing `OMG, a half-naked woman!' kind of way, but on an intellectual level. It's much the same when somebody tries to sell you a product in any sort of way that's not based on reasoned persuasion -- anything from fear ("You are going to be a social outcast if you don't buy our stuff") to image-based ads ("Dynasty uses our Paintball Performance Underwear, so it must be the best!"). I'm not saying there's some draconian way to put an end to it all, or that that's even desirable. What I am saying is that I'm mystified as to why more people don't seem to see it for what it is -- blatant appeals to emotion to make you buy something.



Some of us display more tact than others when dealing with these images (IE we ogle discreetly, when other women are around), but every heterosexual male is effected by this sort of thing in much the same way.


You can't control who (what) you're attracted to. You can control what you do about it. The `looking at sexy girls' thing is a bit much to dig into here, so I'll only gloss over it. Suffice it to say that a) sexuality is a part of life, and b) there's a way to do things that's respectful, and a way that's not.



Also, in the defence of "Get over it", Hypersensivity is just another of the maladies which conspire to limit our perception of the female sex. If you (women that is) want to be taken seriously, you have to learn to deal with situations and words that you don't like. Insisting that everyone stop doing the things you don't like, instead of simply ignoring them, is PC at its worst, and does no good for the person or group making the insistance.


You can't force everyone to think the same way as you do; that's draconian. And, just as surely, you can't force people to act in a civilized manner, but nor should you have to ignore disrespect and tolerate it in silence. If somebody does something that I think is out of line, I don't have to just suck it up (though I often suffer fools more gladly than I should.) I can, should, and will take appropriate action to remedy the problem, though -- that's also my right. If someone's not reprimanded or sanctioned for behaviour that's out of line, that's an implicit green light for it to continue.

At the core, I'm more concerned with attitudes that underlie behaviours than individual instances of the behaviours in question. I can't understand why there has to be such a persistent gender divide across all topics and thinking. For instance, if a woman is playing paintball, the question "Why is she playing?" doesn't pop into my head any more than it would for a guy. Both women and men are diverse individuals, and I think in the end the differences between individuals are far more significant than any differences between genders. Or, as one of my favourite buttons puts it: "Men are from Earth. Women are from Earth. Deal with it." =)

[Alley]

Alley, I would guess there aren't many spokesmodels on this board... I'm not gonna even touch the "you're just jealous comment."


Well, my guess is if they are getting oogled on the field and not called names, they must be something worth looking at right?
I mean it was just a statement for those who play for the reason of attention. But, I suppose that makes me ugly and jealous right?

[Lohman446]

Exactly, and that's what I do. (Well...not the not going to the website part, but I don't buy from Kingman or Smart Parts. Or Brass Eagle, JT, Viewloader, Ronin Gear, or KAPP for that matter.)


Lets keep adding to those who have used sex to sell things: Empire, Dye, AGD, WDP... oh and outside of paintball: nearly every beer company, Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, BMW... I'm sure there are more. So what company in paintball do you buy from that does not use women and the "explotation of women" :rolleyes: to help sell there product?

[Clare]

I've noticed a couple wondering why I hadn't replied so I'm sorry for my late response, but I don't monitor these boards 24/7. I was asked to be AGD's spokesmodel but was never treated as such by fellow paintballers. I've never come across any negative treatment in the tournament scene as a paintball player. I've played with several male teams and still do and they treat me like one of the guys because they know I can hold my own. I play because I love to play..and nothing else.

As for Empress...they play because they love to play and compete in paintball. The team pays for pretty much everything. Despite loss after loss, every girl is willing to shell out hundreds of dollars every tournament to give it their all. I know these girls (obviously) and they don't do it for the attention. No one is paid to do anything. I can say the same for the femmes. They have a sponsorship deal but they still have to pay to be there..

I've read all of these comments and some of them are ridiculous. I like how some people pretend to know what they're talking about.

[CoolHand]

Once again, another person I agree with a great deal. This has been a good discussion.

I'm glad I wandered onto this thread. :headbang:

I see the ads for what they are, but it doesn't stop me from admiring the pretty girls, or the gear they are holding.

Does that make me buy the stuff in question? Nah, usually not. I am not very suceptable to advertising. Engineering school has made me immune to it, more or less (that or my crooked outlook).

You are right that a person's suceptability to various types of advertising is dependant more on their maturity and state of mind than gender. However, marketing folks traffic in generalizations (they have to), and generally speaking, the 13-21 yr old male thinks with the wrong head most of the time. Its a fact of life, and they know this. Since that's their taget demographic, we get the ad schemes we have now.

There is nothing we can do about it, short of changing the way a large group of people thinks (which ain't gonna happen), so we've just got to set back and watch it, ignore it, or get along with it.

[Lohman446]

You are right that a person's suceptability to various types of advertising is dependant more on their maturity and state of mind than gender. However, marketing folks traffic in generalizations (they have to), and generally speaking, the 13-21 yr old male thinks with the wrong head most of the time. it.

Lets take marketing and generalize a little further in demographics. 18-25 year old males :). There tending towards impulse spending, and a general use of general income, makes them very appealing to marketers. You know why the show Married with Children was allowed to run despite complaints to the network and less than impressive ratings? Those ratings showed they were getting the 18-25 year old males.

Paintball targets this group heavily as well - and younger. And like it or not sex sells, especially to 14-25 year old males, in general at least.

[SCpoloRicker]

Well, my guess is if they are getting oogled on the field and not called names, they must be something worth looking at right?
I mean it was just a statement for those who play for the reason of attention. But, I suppose that makes me ugly and jealous right?

I'm afraid I don't know what you are trying to say here... :confused:

Clare I was unaware that Empress had such little funding support. Changes my views of the team a large amount.

[matt-o]

oh, dont suck up to clare :p

[shadowspar]

Lets keep adding to those who have used sex to sell things: Empire, Dye, AGD, WDP... oh and outside of paintball: nearly every beer company, Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, BMW... I'm sure there are more. So what company in paintball do you buy from that does not use women and the "explotation of women" :rolleyes: to help sell there product?

You're quite right when you say that this kind of advertising is very prominent in the paintball industry, as well in the wider world. At this point, I'm reminded of a truism that figures very prominently in my line of work:

All software sucks. All hardware sucks. Our job is to pick the stuff that sucks the least, and make the best of it.

So what do I do? I try to pick the companies that suck the least. Sometimes I may miss something, but I try to do my best. Who do I buy from? My marker is a Phantom VSC, from CCI. Mask is a VForce Morph. As far as I know, neither never done any bikini-babe advertising, though I haven't seen any of VForce's print ads. Who else...I recall from an old issue of Paintball magazine that Xtreme Paintball Park, NWPP, Unique, Air America, J&J, Tippmann and Scott sponsored an all-female tournament, so that's props to them in my book. Also, ACI is one of the few companies I've ever seen that has fully-clothed women in their ads. (Women being portrayed as paintball players! Imagine the shock!) I'm sure I've missed something, and that some of them have done some scantily-clad-chick stuff in the past, though.

Just because it's common doesn't mean I have to like it. Sure narrows the field a lot when you try to take it seriously, though.

(BTW, on the rare occasions when I drink North American beer, it's usually Sleeman's or Alexander Keith's, both have which have effective commercials without bar babes. If you ever get a chance, you should check out Japanese beer commercials -- they're hillarious.)

[Cameo]

Edit: Oh, I get it. I'm jealous because I'm ugly and trying to get the pretty girls out of a job. Gotcha.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I'd really like to know who pointed that out to you, and why they think they understand my motivations. I'm willing to bet I know who, and if that's true, I know for a fact they know nothing they're talking about.


Rest assured it was no one that you knew, unless of course you know my father and my brother (who has been involved in paintball longer then I have and aspires to design markers). My brother and I were talking about different topics in the forum during dinner out(he is a member but never posts). My father got involved in the conversation. Even as my father said "steph, you are just different from the other girls. Even though you do not have the spokesmodel looks you still respect the fact that women need attention." So there you have it, not only do I not have the skillz, but I also do not have the looks.. but heck, I still like all the attention that I can get.. :rofl:
I honestly never thought of you in an ill manner. I try to keep my comments as close to generalizations as possible. They are simply my opinions on life. And I must admit, at times I am jealous, I would love to be one of those girls who has 15 seconds of fame, but alas, God did not see fit to bless me in that way. :p


Well, my guess is if they are getting oogled on the field and not called names, they must be something worth looking at right?
I mean it was just a statement for those who play for the reason of attention. But, I suppose that makes me ugly and jealous right?
Attention is a great and wonderful thing, but I also play because I enjoy myslef out there on the field, not to mention that the people I have played with are WONDERFUL. Oh and the whole LIFE IS TO SHORT SO I AM GOING TO ENJOY MYSELF (any and every way I can). :cheers:

~steph

[MMM]

It took me awhile to get all the way through this thread and all I have to say is wow, I never knew there were so many problems with women playing paintball. I never have problems with chauvanists on the field. I do see alot of little punk snots trying to prove themsevels through their gear but that, again, has mostly to do with the fact that it is the 14-24 yr old male age group.

Keep in mind that I do live in so cal and it must have the greatest proportion (what like 0.1%?) of female players out there so we see a few all female teams come and go. I have been asked several times why I'm not on one. My answer is always why? Why would I go out and play a male domniated sport to be with some of the worst players out there? Now wait! Before you get your panties in a wad let me explain that last comment.

Again there are probably more female paintballers here in so cal than anywhere else so first off the problem is there just aren't enough to keep a team going strong. Most are usually introduced into the sport by a boyfriend/husband/male relative and didn't start out thinking "Hey I should jooin a paintball team!" but showed up at the field and when their male counter part saw that the lone female paintball team needed another player they were introduced. The se teams are usually desperate for headcount and will take whatever they can get. That means that at least a portion of that team is not the most dedicated, thus leading to a less than stellar showing at practice and subsequently tourneys. Is this the fault of the dedicated girls on the team? No, you work with what you have. Can they use guys to fill in for those girls when they aren't available? Sure but how many of you guys want to be known as the fill in guy for the Pinkey Lee's? Again, you work with wat you got. Until the female factor gets a bit higher there's slim pickins out there and a lot of women like me aren't willing to join in even if we are good, dedicated players (I'm not either by the way. I just like playing.)

Does this mean that they shouldn't be sponsored since they do probably suck? I suppose but I also don't care. They don't affect my game at all. I've met a few of the female am players and they happen to be really sweet people. I have issues with the slutty pics they put up with them but that's my personal opinion and it's their bodies that they are putting up there, not mine. Sex sells, they're selling. If that's how they want to earn the cash more power to them, again, it doesn't affect my game and I really don't think it even affects how I'm treated on the field.

When I'm out playing the guys don't usually notice I'm female until after the game is on and I'm yelling (oh yeah, I'm yelling out there). I've never been disrespected, I get a lot of unececessary compliments on my game and apologies from the ones who shoot me out. The boys seem to be very sensitive to not offending me, the younger ones tip toeing more lightly. I have to remind them that if I didn't expect to get shot I wouldn't be on the field. I do find that I get more advice being female, the one's who know what they're talking about like to make a point of helping my game. I don't know why, I've never asked for it but I do appreciate it.

I have watched girl teams play and what has been said here is very true. The break is good and then that's it. They don't move, the don't do anything but bunker down. Watching practice is awful, they repeat the same mistakes over and over again. I going to go out on a limb here and make a generalization, it's not so much the agression that's lacking, it's the SELF CONFIDENCE. They don't have it. Men and women work very differently, they respond to different things when training them in anything, not just sports. These women want it, they want to take the field, they just don't believe in themselves enough. Add to that that there's been no role model, that the women who are out there and high up in paintball get a lot of criticism and aren't believed, in general, to be 'Real players' and it doesn't help any at all. This may be different for the Am women, they may believe in themselves more but I don't think so. If they did, there would be no stopping them.

[SCpoloRicker]

^^ excellent post. :)

[xXHavokXx]

Tell that to some of the members of femme fatales :tard: .


I was just telling a mom here at the shop about them.I left out the part about them never winning and getting hosed in points.

[Lisa]

uhm, I really don't even know where to start! This was a really long thread to read. Let's see...there seems to be alot of people here who know a great deal about what we do, why we do it and how we prepare for it. Let me start by introducing myself; I am Lisa Laxton and I am a proud member of Team Empress. I am also a 36 year old proud mother of 4. Now I will provide you some FACTS to chew on...

I will say that I respect several of the opinions expressed here and I even agree with a lot of them. I will only comment on things I KNOW to be true as pertaining to our team. Since everyone seems to be so interested in what we do, I feel it is only fair you have accurate details. Empress is in the start of our second year and we will be playing DII xball. We are only in DII because they make you move up after your first year..not because we wanted to. Our first event will be the Orlando Open. For those of you who feel we should perform better for our "sponsorship" deal to be able to deserve the attention we get consider this. We have never had our entry fee paid for by any sponsor. We pay that bill 100% ourselves. We have never had a sponsor pay our way to an event. We pay that bill 100% ourselves. We have never had a sponsor pay for housing at an event. We pay that bill 100% ourselves. We have never had a sponsor give us a marker. We pay that bill 100% ourselves. Anyone see a pattern here? We have never had a sponsor cover our way to a practice, pay our hotel or all of our practice paint for us. We pay those bills 100% ourselves. There is not a single Empress player on any Empire Poster or any other type of marketing item produced by any of our sponsors to my knowledge. And I do believe you are correct, none of these poster girls featured are players. But playing is not their job on that poster is it?

Lets take a look at our practice schedule shall we? I mean I really think we should, if we are going to question our dedication to what we do, don't you? You are all correct in the fact that we are from all over the country which makes it hard and expensive to practice. We have recently built a larger roster holding in Texas and therefore have been able to work a lot more on learning to play together. We have had good success in this. The Texas girls have competed in 3 Novice events in the last 4 months here and have placed in the top 5 in each. And there were at least 12 teams at each of those events. The DFW area girls practice almost EVERY weekend. And at least 2 of those are 2 day practices. Did you notice the EVERY weekend? All the girls practice mulitple times a month and all of us do some sort of workout schedule to help us keep in shape. My family has family workouts 3 nights a week running sprints and ect. Sounds pretty dedicated to me...

What next? Attention? Sure, we will touch on that a bit. Do we get alot of attention? Sometimes yes we do. Did any of us ever do anything to ask for it? No. We showed up in LA last year to play. Unknown to us, 720 video was set up to tape our "insert a small bit of sarcasim here" historic first all girls xball team match. How did we feel? Excited? Yes...of course we were! Would we have been just as excited if they hadn't been there. YES!!! Why? Because we were getting ready to play xball at what was for most of us our first national event! It was paintball baby! We were about to go shoot some people and be shot! Did we win? NO WAY! But we left our hearts and souls on that field. Just like everyone who loves this sport does.

This reply is already way too long and to be frank includes way more information than most people here are entitled too. So I am going to sum it all up now in one last paragraph for you. So here goes...Empress does not play paintball to impress you, we do not play to make it easier to other girls to be accepted in this sport. If that happens, it is a unintended result that we are thrilled about! We go out there every practice and every event with the intention to play to the best of our ability and if not; then maybe we will learn something that day we can use to improve ourselves. We have never called ourselves "PRO" or even stated that we are a great team. Will we ever make podium? I doubt it, but we can still dream about it can't we? :D We have fun trying and I thought that was what it was all about anyways. We have never asked for anyones respect, but we hope we have earned it from some. Other than that we just wanna play ball. We did not ask to mentioned in this or any other thread about female players. We would all prefer to just be known as players. Not good ones, not bad ones. Just players who play for the love of the sport and for ourselves. I don't think that is too much to ask...do you?

[SCpoloRicker]

Thanks for chiming in on the boards, Lisa. I think that you've cleared up a few of the rumors floating around about Empress, its sponsors, and the team itself.

Enjoy your time on AO.

[Lisa]

Thanks for chiming in on the boards, Lisa. I think that you've cleared up a few of the rumors floating around about Empress, its sponsors, and the team itself.

Enjoy your time on AO.


No problem! Any time they need to up their per post word count they can call me! ;) :p

[CodeMA]

Rock on Momma Lisa ;)

[hitech]

...I feel it is only fair you have accurate details...

And that seems to have ended the discussion...

[Miscue]

With all this attention vs. "we are here to play stuff," a question came to mind. What is the purpose of a female team (as it relates with Empress)? Is there some sort of underlying motivational factor, like a "Let's see what we can do" type thing? I just have the feeling that there is some sort of goal in mind that keeps all of you interested enough to put in the extra effort and keep it a female team, not giving up on whatever ideals you may be pursuing.

Wow, those sponsors don't seem to do much sponsoring!



uhm, I really don't even know where to start! This was a really long thread to read. Let's see...there seems to be alot of people here who know a great deal about what we do, why we do it and how we prepare for it. Let me start by introducing myself; I am Lisa Laxton and I am a proud member of Team Empress. I am also a 36 year old proud mother of 4. Now I will provide you some FACTS to chew on...

I will say that I respect several of the opinions expressed here and I even agree with a lot of them. I will only comment on things I KNOW to be true as pertaining to our team. Since everyone seems to be so interested in what we do, I feel it is only fair you have accurate details. Empress is in the start of our second year and we will be playing DII xball. We are only in DII because they make you move up after your first year..not because we wanted to. Our first event will be the Orlando Open. For those of you who feel we should perform better for our "sponsorship" deal to be able to deserve the attention we get consider this. We have never had our entry fee paid for by any sponsor. We pay that bill 100% ourselves. We have never had a sponsor pay our way to an event. We pay that bill 100% ourselves. We have never had a sponsor pay for housing at an event. We pay that bill 100% ourselves. We have never had a sponsor give us a marker. We pay that bill 100% ourselves. Anyone see a pattern here? We have never had a sponsor cover our way to a practice, pay our hotel or all of our practice paint for us. We pay those bills 100% ourselves. There is not a single Empress player on any Empire Poster or any other type of marketing item produced by any of our sponsors to my knowledge. And I do believe you are correct, none of these poster girls featured are players. But playing is not their job on that poster is it?

Lets take a look at our practice schedule shall we? I mean I really think we should, if we are going to question our dedication to what we do, don't you? You are all correct in the fact that we are from all over the country which makes it hard and expensive to practice. We have recently built a larger roster holding in Texas and therefore have been able to work a lot more on learning to play together. We have had good success in this. The Texas girls have competed in 3 Novice events in the last 4 months here and have placed in the top 5 in each. And there were at least 12 teams at each of those events. The DFW area girls practice almost EVERY weekend. And at least 2 of those are 2 day practices. Did you notice the EVERY weekend? All the girls practice mulitple times a month and all of us do some sort of workout schedule to help us keep in shape. My family has family workouts 3 nights a week running sprints and ect. Sounds pretty dedicated to me...

What next? Attention? Sure, we will touch on that a bit. Do we get alot of attention? Sometimes yes we do. Did any of us ever do anything to ask for it? No. We showed up in LA last year to play. Unknown to us, 720 video was set up to tape our "insert a small bit of sarcasim here" historic first all girls xball team match. How did we feel? Excited? Yes...of course we were! Would we have been just as excited if they hadn't been there. YES!!! Why? Because we were getting ready to play xball at what was for most of us our first national event! It was paintball baby! We were about to go shoot some people and be shot! Did we win? NO WAY! But we left our hearts and souls on that field. Just like everyone who loves this sport does.

This reply is already way too long and to be frank includes way more information than most people here are entitled too. So I am going to sum it all up now in one last paragraph for you. So here goes...Empress does not play paintball to impress you, we do not play to make it easier to other girls to be accepted in this sport. If that happens, it is a unintended result that we are thrilled about! We go out there every practice and every event with the intention to play to the best of our ability and if not; then maybe we will learn something that day we can use to improve ourselves. We have never called ourselves "PRO" or even stated that we are a great team. Will we ever make podium? I doubt it, but we can still dream about it can't we? :D We have fun trying and I thought that was what it was all about anyways. We have never asked for anyones respect, but we hope we have earned it from some. Other than that we just wanna play ball. We did not ask to mentioned in this or any other thread about female players. We would all prefer to just be known as players. Not good ones, not bad ones. Just players who play for the love of the sport and for ourselves. I don't think that is too much to ask...do you?

[Vex]

Wow, those sponsors don't seem to do much sponsoring!

I was thinking the exact same thing! What are sponsors for if they're not paying for something? Did you just agree to wear their logos on your jerseys for nothing? Sounds like a good deal for the "sponsors" to me.

[Lisa]

I was thinking the exact same thing! What are sponsors for if they're not paying for something? Did you just agree to wear their logos on your jerseys for nothing? Sounds like a good deal for the "sponsors" to me.


Well, being a new team that, as it has been pointed out, doesn't have a lot of wins to our record at national events; we are working towards our future and trying to build a good reputation as a team. The sponsors we have at this time do the best they can for us and we appreciate what they do help with. As everyone knows national events can be very expensive and every little bit helps out. We would play with or without sponsors, so a sponsorship is a sponsorship. And as I said before..we play to play and no other reason. We don't have an "ultimate plan" to take over the sport or anything like that. At least not that I can admit to in public. :rofl: ;) :D

PS...While I did tell you what our sponsorships don't pay for, notice I didn't ever say what they do pay for. That is uncool and not something that should be posted in a public forum. :nono: And if anyone knows anyone looking to sponsor a great bunch of gals on any of the non-covered items listed above, feel free to have them contact me! :clap:

[MMM]

Miscue
As I understand it from the all girls team/s we have out here the reason they play on all girls teams is that they didn't get any play when on co-ed teams. It's kind of like in elementary school when teams are picked the girls are picked last. Not saying it's fair or unfair that's just the way it goes.

[Lisa]

Miscue
As I understand it from the all girls team/s we have out here the reason they play on all girls teams is that they didn't get any play when on co-ed teams. It's kind of like in elementary school when teams are picked the girls are picked last. Not saying it's fair or unfair that's just the way it goes.

That is one of the reasons that I have heard also. But a lot of it is just because it is a totally different experience to play on a all girls team. And it is a lot of fun..at least for us. We are very much a family group. As for me, that is the reason. I have either always played on all girls or on a team with my husband and sons so play time has never been an issue for me. But I will say for awhile when playing with my husband I realized that played totally different with him on the field. It was like I was sitting back waiting on him to make something happen. :tard: Once I noticed this I tried to change that so we were all making things happen and play more like I do on the girls team. It helped alot in our aggressiveness.

[MMM]

I usually play as far away from my husband as possible because it does make a difference in how I play. Combined with the fact that he tunes out my voice so well my role as back player is almost negated. I end up concentrating my yelling out to the others on the team while he gets shot out early for not listening...

[Lisa]

ROFL!!! :rofl: That is too funny!

[Jakedubbleya]

Edit: Sry to interrupt the girl chat

-Mixed teams in stock play seem to do rather well, or at least they used to, havent been keeping crrent with that...-

Im a bit confused tho after Lisa cleared some things up. So your saying, your players are motivated, confident, and disciplined. Is this largely the case with all of the female teams, or is empress the exception?

If this really is the demeanor of empress, then why havent we seen results? Lack of talent (player specific not saying girls as a whole.. bla bla bla politically correct bla bla bla), Poor leadership? What?

When this post was started by Target Practice, the fact that women were indeed posing and not trying was an excuse of sorts for their poor performance. What youve done is merely get rid of that excuse.

Im just baffled why female teams dont do well, ive seen, as mentioned earlyer amazing things accomplished by women in stock play. And a couple of isolated incidences in speedball/Aball as well.

I am convinced (as are most), that women are as (or near enough to null the difference) physically capable of playing paintball as men. But the overall performance by women is unrelative to their capabilities.

This is one of those mysteries i think only time will reveal.

[SCpoloRicker]

tsc and Target Practice may not be typical, mainly because tsc can kick TP (and mine)'s arse in pball, and shooting... ;)

I think that a lack of time in the sport at the tournament level is why teams like Empress and mayhaps Femmes etc. et all aren't winning. Even if some gals who form a competitive team have played recball for several years, they still have little to no experience at the higher level.

Plus, I think a lot of the core "tournament" players have been envolved in paintball since they were young, avg age being, say, 14-16. I don't think that women who get into the sport start at as young of an age.

I don't want to sound misogynist; and this is changing, but most of the times I've played with a woman, she had been "introduced" to the game by a dude.

Anyways, great discussion thus far. :cheers:

[Lisa]

Well as I stated before, I can't speak for what the other girls teams do. As for Empress, these changes just happened toward the end of the year and over the "off season" so the results are yet to be seen. We have had what I consider to be moderate success on a local 5 man level. We moved up and placed 5th in all three events. Could have been worse. I also think it is harder to find a whole team of top talent players that are all girls. So in some cases you take the best you can get and you work with them over time to improve any areas that are lacking.

Most people don't realize that the vast majority of Empress had never even met prior to our first event, much less practiced together! :p And we were only able to have 2 complete team practices last year! How many wins would any team have with that little time together? So..all considered...we do the best we can and make the changes we can to try and improve it all. And we smile alot! :D

[Miscue]

Speaking of co-ed, anyone ever watch Ladybugs? :p

[Jakedubbleya]

Look what we found!

REAL reasons! :cheers:

Q: should you even be competing if you can only get your team to practice 2x a year?

Almost a why bother amongst other things like poor sportsmanship, and you have-to wonder how much effort is really going into a team with such stats.

But, you said you are/have made changes, which is something you obviously need to do, so good luck with that.

(Its no surprise your sponsors arent paying for your playing, and you most assuredly should not expect them to.)

[Lisa]

Last I checked we never said we expected them to...everyone else did. And the 2 practices were the only ones where the entire team was together. There were plenty of regional practices just not the entire team.

As for whether we should play or not, I guess that is a decision we have to make for ourselves...but I am sure we will take everyone elses opinions on what we should do under great consideration before we make that decision in the future. :rolleyes: I guess all those other teams out there that are all guys who don't have winning records should just quit also. But I guess that would be a topic for another thread...Could someone provide me with the link for the "Poser male teams that don't win enough and should quit paintball" thread? Thanks! So much for winning isn't everything and playing for the sake of playing the sport. :cool:

[Jakedubbleya]

Its not about winning records its about effort and development, especially in a sport that is not truly professional at the "professional" level.

Your comment about the sponsors...?
never said u did...

Im not here to critisize your team, was just letting out a little dissapointment from the fan/critic angle.

Good luck. :argh:

[Lisa]

My comment about the sponsors paying was in reference to all the comments that other people made about how we didn't deserve all that our sponsors pay for for us. And you have to admit that it would be alittle hard to be in our shoes and read all the judgemental posts about your team and not get just a tad bit defensive. I have really tried not to be and I am sorry if it has sounded like that.

[Miscue]

My comment about the sponsors paying was in reference to all the comments that other people made about how we didn't deserve all that our sponsors pay for for us. And you have to admit that it would be alittle hard to be in our shoes and read all the judgemental posts about your team and not get just a tad bit defensive. I have really tried not to be and I am sorry if it has sounded like that.

As far as I can tell, it seems that most who have posted are supportive of the female teams - but even so, are calling it like they see it - and I think that's fair. Some things might be off, but as a fan/spectator that's to be expected, and to me this is excusable to a point. Well anyway, I think that all this stuff can be used constructively... and maybe something can be learned from all this. I find this to be an interesting/fresh topic, and not one that's been beaten to death already.

[Miscue]

"Poser male teams that don't win enough and should quit paintball" thread? Thanks! So much for winning isn't everything and playing for the sake of playing the sport. :cool:

After rereading the original post, and several others... I don't think "winning" was brought up as an important performance measurement... and "winning isn't everything and playing for the sake of playing the sport," was implied... and was kind of the point being made.

[waterchimera]

Over the last year or so this has been a topic often discussed by my boyfriend and I. As a woman who plays paintball on an all guys team in an area with very few women players I can’t help but become an observer of other women and girls who play this sport. I’m constantly trying to recruit other girls from my University to join our club and those who do come to play for the first time are extremely overwhelmed by the fact that they are entering into a frantic world where they are singled out because of their sex. Not in as much as that they are being treated any different then a new guy player but because there is a certain uncomfortable feeling you get when you realize you are the only girl in a group of upwards of 50 guys. Some girls get over this feeling and eventually make friends with the guys but in many cases the girls loose interest because they can’t shake this, dare I say it, “lonely” feeling. This means for every girl you see on a field, countless others have left regardless of how good they may have become with practice.

The real answer as to why there aren’t any pro-level (now I say pro level as a level of skill not rank) comes down to more or less probability. What is the probability that 3-7 real honestly good women players have made it to the point that they can play at a professional level, live in the same location, and are willing to make the commitment necessary to play pro? All-women teams put themselves at a disadvantage when they make the choice to use a small pool from which to draw players. I feel that for women to really advance in this sport they cannot limit themselves to playing for all-women teams. There are too few women who play which means all-women teams must resort to using mediocre players to fill their rosters.

Now lets look at this from a monetary standpoint. Paintball is an expensive sport and as you move up in competitive level price increases proportionately. Keeping in mind that one of the biggest markets in paintball is boys between the age of 14-25 the easiest way to sell products is market them in a way that is appealing to them which just happens to be a pretty female face. Naturally this is on the minds of both sponsors and the new teams forming. If your only choice is mediocrity why not just fill your rosters with people that will get you the sponsors? This is the choice that teams have to make for themselves and unfortunately until the number of girls and women who play paintball increases, we are going to be stuck in this cycle.

[waterchimera]

I don't want to sound misogynist; and this is changing, but most of the times I've played with a woman, she had been "introduced" to the game by a dude.

Just a quick logic question: Does it matter if a girl has been introduced by a guy? I mean most guys who play have been introduced to the game. More guys play than girls, thus it is only logical that a guy will introduce a girl to the sport. I have introduced at least 20 guys to the sport. Does that make them any less of a player? :rolleyes:

[Rooster]

Facinating discussion. I think Women's teams have a long way to go and alot of rethinking to do before they ever become competitive. Aggression can be an asset in paintball, it can also be a liability. Its just like chess, some players can attack and win, others can defend and win.

I think the thought that sums up the discussion is: where are all the ugly girls at? Every high level women's sports team has some real beasts on it. Which, when you consider the logic, right after your intial knee-jerk reaction to what I just said, makes pefect sense. If women's teams wanted to be competitive they would be getting the best players, not the best players that are good looking.

If the stated goal of any "professional" women's team to be to get more girls into the sport, they are kidding themselves. Little girls aren't watching you play. Teenage boys are watching you play. You are getting exactly what you asked for, to be a schill for someone's product line, and its not little girls buying the product.

This thread proves a more behavioral point, and that is in a sport, or in anything, that requires field leadership (as opposed to having a heirarcy with a designated manager) women have a very high probablity of getting catty with each other. Men usually will gravitate to one alpha male and follow his lead. If there is more than one alpha, there will usually be a fight of some type were one will emerge as the leader. I have seen this dynamic over and over again. It happens between friends, it happens at work, and it happens when people play games or sports. I have never seen it happen with a group of women. As a manager of both men and women, I try never to build a group solely out of women for this reason. I don't really think they have an instictive desire to find the most able and follow that person. This can be paralyzing when it comes to making decisions. I think a women's sports team has been able to do well because you have an outside person giving the orders. You don't really have that with a paintball team. Decisions have to be made on the fly, and everyone has to be 100% committed to accomplishing that task. I honestly think it comes down to instinct. Men will follow men, women will follow men, but no woman wants to follow another woman that is her peer. Even if consciously women try to ignore that urge and tries to be the "good soldier" by following another woman's orders, that she regards as a peer, there is still an instinct that is saying "what is her's could be yours."

Honestly, I have no idea if any of that is true. I just know what I've seen and experienced working with alot of women and men in team/group type environments as both an employee and a manager.

[jdev]

You know, I'd be interested in knowing her motives. Perhaps you could ask her? You have to tell her to be PERFECTLY honest. If she said she wanted to go to spend time with you, or take part in something that you take part in, that's fine. If she's doing it to get attention from you or anyone else, then you can't say that she wanted to play for the sport of it.


that is actually the exact reason that my girlfriend started to become interested in paintball. she sees me toss my time and money into the sport, and she thought it would be fun to try out. she hasn't as of yet stepped on the field to play, but, her intentions to play were to do so because she wanted to be a part of something that I enjoy doing.

[SCpoloRicker]

Just a quick logic question: Does it matter if a girl has been introduced by a guy? I mean most guys who play have been introduced to the game. More guys play than girls, thus it is only logical that a guy will introduce a girl to the sport. I have introduced at least 20 guys to the sport. Does that make them any less of a player? :rolleyes:

Thats a very fair question. :)

The point I was attempting to make was more that most of the female players I have met are "new" to the sport, i.e. playing just rec-ball and only for a limited time.

I was contrasting this to the core group of high-level tournament players, many of which have been playing, on a competitive level, for >5 years.

You are correct in stating that how one came into the game has no effect on what level they aspire to play at.

Hope that clears that up.

Excellent discussion, AOers! :cheers:

[DiRTyBuNNy]

didn't I get banned for starting a thread like this a few years ago?

[Muzikman]

Damn, what brought DB out of retirement?!?!? What's up DB?

[Automaggot68]

didn't I get banned for starting a thread like this a few years ago?

Yes, you did.
I also remember that you had
" Fat Lady's Charms > Femmes Fatals/all other female teams ", or something similar In your signature as well.
(forgive me if you still do, I dont lok at userprofiles anymore)

How've you been man?

[Miscue]

http://www.team-maxim.com/feature_vegasshoot2002.html

[gc82000]

How many of those ladies still play at the "pro" level of pb?

[Carbon]

yeah, that team maxim spread just exacerbates the whole image vs skill thing issue.

[Cameo]

Lisa girl has a Bob long red dragon intimadator and shes getting wet... Now I don't know alot about paint ball, but wouldn't that hurt the gun, it is no Palmers.

[Miscue]

Lisa girl has a Bob long red dragon intimadator and shes getting wet... Now I don't know alot about paint ball, but wouldn't that hurt the gun, it is no Palmers.

Nah... she just might have to wipe it off when she's done with it.

[CoolHand]

Nah... she just might have to wipe it off when she's done with it.

:rofl: I saw the post before the edit. :ninja: I literally laughed out loud when I read it.

[Automaggot68]

:rofl: I saw the post before the edit. :ninja: I literally laughed out loud when I read it.


GET BACK TO WORK ON MY FRAMES.
SLACKER.

[Miscue]

:rofl: I saw the post before the edit. :ninja: I literally laughed out loud when I read it.

I settled with something more subtle with the final edit.

But since you caught it... originally I said:

"With that length of barrel, I don't think she'll reach the electronics. Should be okay."

Then I edited it with:

"Maybe if it is its first time."

So... in case others felt left out... there ya go. :p

[CoolHand]

They were all pretty damned funny.

Ah, what would the world be without dirty jokes?

Nice to see someone still has a sense of humor. :headbang:

[Automaggot68]

I settled with something more subtle with the final edit.

But since you caught it... originally I said:

"With that length of barrel, I don't think she'll reach the electronics. Should be okay."

Then I edited it with:

"Maybe if it is its first time."

So... in case others felt left out... there ya go. :p


I saw them in my email notifcations as well, Lol.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Damn, what brought DB out of retirement?!?!? What's up DB?

my ears were burning...that's all...really...I've moved to Knoxville, TN to be with my fiance...other than that...same ol' same ol'...I just lurk around anymore...haven't seen a reason to post till I saw this thread...