DYE has Proto, should AGD have a "Pro" label?

[ultralight]

dye created proto as their "budget" label. to distance their lower end products from their elite high end name.

should AGD create a higher end/tourny/pro label, and product line (based on Xvalve) to distance their excellent products from the old "mags suck" stigma?

it has worked for many companies over the years. how many of you knew tht DeWalt, makers of "rugged, contractor grade power tools", was created by Black & Decker to change their "toy tool" image?

the big three automakers keep the names of smaller companies that they buy as division titles in order to keep that particular brand's customer base. and the tactic works very well.
most people who are not part of the auto industry and/or don't live in Michigan, don't know which brands (saturn, cadillac, mercury, dodge) are owned by which parent companies (GM, Ford, Chrysler).

let me know what you think.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I dunno, it could be a good idea.

Then again, the name AGD was well known for making one of the greatest tourney guns back in the day (68 automag). So they DO have a great reputation for making high end markers. The name does stand for something, and i think that is why alot of people still buy mags, for the legendary AGD service and quality.

[Glickman]

i stopped hoping for new things from agd quite a while ago :(

[ultralight]

while mags have a great reputation for quality among mag owners and AOers, they have a decidedly negative reputation in the pro/tourny scene.
i've even heard TK talk about how Pros wont touch mags due to the bad rep.

i'm suggesting a new tournament friendly "coat of paint" for AGD's quality products in order to shed the bad rep that is attatched to the name Automag.

now, don't get me wrong, i'm primarily a woodsballer. but it seems to me that tournament paintball is where the money is, where the advertising is, and where little timmy's mom is dumping outrageous ammounts of coin to deck him out in all of the latest and greatest gear.


dream the impossible dream!!!

[Skoad]

So they DO have a great reputation for making high end markers. The name does stand for something, and i think that is why alot of people still buy mags, for the legendary AGD service and quality.

They USED to have a great reputation for making high end markers.


Technology changes, and if you want to keep up you have to change too. AGD seemed pretty stubborn for a while, either that or they just didn't have the resources to compete on the electro market.

[Glickman]

i'm suggesting a new tournament friendly "coat of paint" for AGD's quality products in order to shed the bad rep that is attatched to the name Automag.


eh?

one coat of paint will do that?

heck, ill COVER pete rose with it, that should work..



personally i dont think color will change anything. yes, some tourny people may be (yes, i can make jew and tournyballer jokes, well, because i am one :D ) that dumb, but most are looking for performance, usually over color. (although youll get the dumb kids that will go for a gun just for color)

[ultralight]

"coat of paint" is in quotation marks because it is a metaphor. meaning, same proven, reliable x-valve technology, new marker platform, and new name.

[Enemy]

they need something high end before they can make a high end brand dont you think???

[warbeak2099]

Bingo. They currently don't have a supermarker that they can market as their pro label flagship gun.

[LudavicoSoldier]

While a "pro" AGD line would be nice, I think that they would have to come up with something that would be much more air efficient to even think of competeing in todays market. Lets face it, the mag in any form is a pretty bad gas hog compared to todays electro guns. It wold seem that a flagship marker needs to have a certain list of things to be appealing to tournament players, such as:

1. Air efficiency
2. Weight (the emag is a beast compared to a timmy)
3. Modes of fire (ramping, etc)
4. Crazy milling and ano
5. Bells and/or whistles
6. Tourny cred

After the death of the X-Mag, I doubt AGD is chomping at the bit to release another expensive, exclusive gun. I simply dont believe that AGD has the capacity and/or financial backing to put out something that could compete with your shockers/matrixes/timmys.

[purple]

Ever hear the saying "you hear what you expect to hear" dunno where some people are getting the impression that people think "mags suck". every field in san antonio/houston i've been to everyone has been totally impressed with mags and think they are the shiznit. I mean i've had refs coozing all over my emag/tac and saying they wish they had a mag, mags are the shiznit for accuracy, etc. Maybe Texas is odd or something, but everyone is swinging back into agd's favor here. I mean, where else do you see 3 XMags and 2 emags in one day on the same field? I love agd products, and i also love WDP products, hence i have both. Quality is #1 in my book, and they both have it in spades.
I think AGD is fine the way it is. no need to make an AGDScion or somesuch. I'm glad AGD doesnt make STBB guns to pad their profits.

Purple

[JimmyBeam]

yea maybe if this was 1990, but since AGD doesnt feel the need to put out anything new, whats the point of having a pro label with 10 year old technology?

[astroboy]

I agree with everyone that says AGD needs to put out a new gun using completely new technology and not just a re-hash of their AIR valve. Why? Because people like new things. However I don't know about air efficiency being a huge concern. The ICD Freestyles are not very efficient and neither is the matrix nor shocker. A bonus but it doesn't seem to affect the sales of the aforementioned guns.

IMO the new gun should:

(1) look sexy and sleek

(2) shoot extremely fast ala 30+ bps... I can hear people screaming now "when are you ever gonna reach that speed etc etc"... we've all heard those arguments defending the slower bps but we, as consumers, are fascinated and attracted to bigger and better stats... those people who buy the suped up mustangs, camaros and Porshes rarely, if ever, are able to reach the limits of their toys but the thought of having their toy capable of extreme feats is a major turn on! Yes the valve can shoot crazy fast but the limits of the e-mag is only ~20 bps

(3) it has to be electro... so bite the darn bullet and pay SP their fees and put out the guns like ICD, etc. why? because the best selling guns are electro... the A5 was hot and may still be a good seller (anomaly?) but I believe the Ion has proven that electros rule...

There's two ways to do it:

(A) be extremely expensive and sexy ala DYE
(B) be less expensive and have less quality parts ala SP

Marketing! Marketing! Marketing! Advertise like DYE and SP, etc... For some reason AGD didn't want to advertise using tournies and magazine ads. WGP, WDP, etc all do and they are all fairly sucessful. Name me a successful brand that doesn't market. AKA? Palmers?

[JimmyBeam]

How old do you think the Hammer-Poppet valve technology is?

Guess we gotta get rid of all the Timmies now too :clap:

true

[Chronobreak]

i stopped hoping for new things from agd quite a while ago :(

werd

ide say if your unhappy or want something else other than what agd is currently offering..move on :cry:

if agd isnt going to advertise at the least you think their going to make another brand name that they done havy any producst for? :confused:

[JAM]

The other aspect is that (I don't think) AGD is large enough to have multiple product lines...
For better or worse, for products to be successful- as in "money making"- they need to have a lot of advertising behind them. That takes tons of money. and the Paintball industry is big enough now that word-of-mouth isn't enough to grow a company. a grass-roots good rep might be enough to help a company limp along- that's where i see AGD right now.

But, even if AGD came out with an updated technology great marker, it wouldn't really see the light of day because the money to advertise an produce it in high numbers isn't there.

Maybe being purchased by some large conglomerate (K2, etc) is the only way for AGD to blow up, I don't know.

I've owned as many mags as other markers- from classics to XMags, but i think my image of AGD is based on what i knew of them from the early 90's when they were on top.

my 2¢.

[etjoyride]

Ever hear the saying "you hear what you expect to hear" dunno where some people are getting the impression that people think "mags suck". every field in san antonio/houston i've been to everyone has been totally impressed with mags and think they are the shiznit. I mean i've had refs coozing all over my emag/tac and saying they wish they had a mag, mags are the shiznit for accuracy, etc. Maybe Texas is odd or something, but everyone is swinging back into agd's favor here. I mean, where else do you see 3 XMags and 2 emags in one day on the same field? I love agd products, and i also love WDP products, hence i have both. Quality is #1 in my book, and they both have it in spades.
I think AGD is fine the way it is. no need to make an AGDScion or somesuch. I'm glad AGD doesnt make STBB guns to pad their profits.

Purple

man you are so right. I live in fort worth and there are always a few maggers (including me) at the fields i play at and everyone thinks there great.

[Lorenz0666]

I dunno, it could be a good idea.

Then again, the name AGD was well known for making one of the greatest tourney guns back in the day (68 automag). So they DO have a great reputation for making high end markers. The name does stand for something, and i think that is why alot of people still buy mags, for the legendary AGD service and quality.

not unlike how pmi started their Evil line?

[tony3]

AGD needs to drop the blowforward and xvalve IMO. The xvalve is an aluminum rt valve with lvl 10. The rt valve is a 9 year old design with only 2 changes, aluminum and lvl 10. Agd should jump into the spool valve market IMO. If they made a shocker similar gun that has an amazing reg, and all those new features gun are coming stock with, it would probably sell good. If they want the gun to really take off they just need a feature or 2 that no other guns have. Like what? No idea, but they need to set their guns apart from current guns, because they are all the same nowadays. A new, good feature that will give themselves a good advantage over current guns.

[CKY_Alliance]

AGD needs to drop the blowforward and xvalve IMO. The xvalve is an aluminum rt valve with lvl 10. The rt valve is a 9 year old design with only 2 changes, aluminum and lvl 10. Agd should jump into the spool valve market IMO. If they made a shocker similar gun that has an amazing reg, and all those new features gun are coming stock with, it would probably sell good. If they want the gun to really take off they just need a feature or 2 that no other guns have. Like what? No idea, but they need to set their guns apart from current guns, because they are all the same nowadays. A new, good feature that will give themselves a good advantage over current guns.

Why drop the valve..they can keep up no problem and they already have a reg so no need for a heavy vert reg.I say keep the valve get a diffrent noid/board eyes and lvl 7.Want a flahier body get a custom body...

EDIT: not that vert regs are that heavy but gas-thrus are lighter for the wieght freaks.

[tony3]

Get rid of the valve because it is associated with everything bad about mags and nothing good about them. Get rid of the spring return, switch it to air return with an air solenoid. Image a valve with no back and an inline reg instead, the weight wouldn't be that much different.

[Codekevin0403]

tony...

getting rid of a valve on a mag is like replacing your heart with a gorilla's. The mag is built around the valve, and has been for quite a while. I don't think the valve has anything less to offer than a regular style pb gun. And anyways, for about 10 years is it?, the mag has not been completely overhauled. They just modified it a little, and look where mags are now, they are known as some of the most reliable guns in paintball as of right now. I bet if they just used an emag and put some kind or really special trick in it (don't ask me what it is because i have no idea) than it would sell great.

And anyways, what about an Xmag? is that not 'pro' level? i dunno but it was worth asking.

my 2 cents-take it or leave it

[tony3]

I guess you can say "most reliable" but in past years with introduction with Lvl 10 and ULT imo reliablity has went down. On my old rt, the lvl 10 would leak for no reason. It wasn't my fault as the user either, just random leaks.

The emag was never that good of a gun. When it came out, it chopped because of lack of lvl 10 and no hopper to feed it. They introduced warp feeds, but people were afraid to change. By the time halos were out and reliable and not sucking, not to mention by the time lvl 10 was out, the emag was out of date. The huge battery pack and the weight of them is the reason people aren't big on them.

People don't want the same old sear trigger mag. Consumers want something new that has new features but isn't too crazyily innovative. I think they should get rid of the current valve, which would be hard with dye having a lock on the spool valve patent, but I am sure they can find a way around it

[Codekevin0403]

tony i know what you're saying and i definitely think that that is a good idea, just not for mags. Anyways, the emag wasn't such a great gun, i agree, but the battery pack can be moved just so you know. And also, if it's out-of-date, then all you need is an update, not a completely redesigned gun. I bet if you just got some better software for the emag it'd still be a nice gun. All you really need is some nice software and a good trigger for the emag to be a good performing gun. Of course, there are many guns that would outperform an emag, but that's not what the mag is for. I bet a few years ago, there were also many guns that outperformed an emag, but it wasn't changed, so obviously that was not the direction that AGD wanted to approach at. And also, about the chopping, now that the halo's are out, and so are the lvl 10 bolts, it doesn't really make sense to remember the past, now does it?

Of course, my lvl 10 has leaked a couple times...randomly, but that's okay. Just need to move on and let it go.

Anyways if AGD is going to make a new line of guns, they might as well have a new name, such as DYE and Proto, since i can't imagine AGD making anything except for mags.

[JimmyBeam]

actually i think a total redesign is whats needed. using what they know now. but give it the customization potential with a small profile and the reliability everyone has come to know from AGD

[ICP]

If AGD got rid of the current valve system for something else, I would imagine they would lose a lot of business, from current owners. Sure they MIGHT gain the new "kids" that want the latest products, but then you might as well have another dye, or SP. No real following of loyal customers, just people that see something shiney and say it's the best regardless of wether it is or not, IMO

[UpliftedApe]

Look who says a Mag is inefficient has anyone done the math besides me? http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=165512
th eproblem is the ability to shoot deep in to the tank, and the size of the "dump chamber" a mag uses. For size it is much better to have a HP gun because you need almost no volume, hence a mags small size and weight these days. The mag for the depth it shoots into the tank is remarkably efficient, and if you check out the links on that thread, you will see Tom has made improvements to the efficiency. As far as competition, it wouldn't be an issue for AGD to design a simple LP gun, Paintball markers are NOT rocket science, they could subcontract to some Chinese firm and bam we have the AGD ION clone BLEH!, The limitation on an E/X mag is the solenoid and sear, if anybody has visited the Devil mag website you know that an electromag is capable of competitive speeds i.e. 25bps+. The question you all should ask yourself is why is that important? Fields are all gonna start capping us down to 15BPS WDP's software upgrades are already moving towards that direction. It hurts fields to have people walk on the field with my Predator E-mag and sit back and wail away at 22BPS with ramping. AGD could easily install or have these boards for their guns, it's a simple drop in, it would probably boost thier sales to no end to do so, ramping is not cheating any more, that is one thing we die hard magers had to give up was the idea that all these people were cheating and we alone stayed the true course. this si garbage the leagues are allowing it with a max cap, and the fields don't care as long as you exercise restraint on nailing people. Trust me a ramping mag is just rediculous on the field and is more competetion than a lot of the tourney people wanted. So I agree they should do that it is a simple and cheap process, the other thing is their is a generation of people, with timmies and shockers who long for quality, even with eyes they still chop, when I showed my LVL 10 all the tourney guys they went nuts, how is it everyone seems to have forgotten this? One thing they should do and it would be a simple change is to make their valves LP. Quieter and the ability to shoot deeper in the tank would allow the mags to be part of the "IN" guns, one other thing a mag could easily do since the only need the valve to handle the pressure of the gun, is to go completely carbon fiber in construction, Frame, body Rail, and mainbody the gun would then be THE lightest marker out there, I personnally am experimenting with this process now. and I am not talking decrative carbon fiber I am talking the stuff that you here is stronger than steel construction that boeing and airbus use to construct those huge wing sections. Cutting out the milling and doing a simple vacuum infusion carbon fiber rmold would save a tremendous amount of money.


Just my $50 worth!

[ICP]

I agree with most of that, except the part about subcontracting out to some chinese firm. If they did this, how would they be different than any other company out there? Your right about the mag and it's greatness, and easy things to boost there sales,support etc. However, we are not the ones that need to be convinced. Those "tourney" players you speak of are. But unless there is mass advertising, wich requires mucho $$, it's hard to sell anything in this business, even if it's the best available.

[UpliftedApe]

I meant that as a critisim against compaines that do that, look at spyders taiwan china Junk the design is fine but it's garbage, but look at a lot of the other american marker maufactures that are garbage, I like the quality AGD has whoever they contract to. I know WDP builds their markers in house in their own machine shops, as I understand AGD contracts out to several firms. sorry if I get less understandable it's been a long day

[jewie27]

while mags have a great reputation for quality among mag owners and AOers, they have a decidedly negative reputation in the pro/tourny scene.
i've even heard TK talk about how Pros wont touch mags due to the bad rep.

i'm suggesting a new tournament friendly "coat of paint" for AGD's quality products in order to shed the bad rep that is attatched to the name Automag.

now, don't get me wrong, i'm primarily a woodsballer. but it seems to me that tournament paintball is where the money is, where the advertising is, and where little timmy's mom is dumping outrageous ammounts of coin to deck him out in all of the latest and greatest gear.


dream the impossible dream!!!



The X-Mag in my opinion, was NEVER given the chance to be recognized by the tourney scene..... Honestly if teams ever had the chance to try one, it would totally change their perception of 'Mags forever. The Mag was the first marker to ever use a anti-chop bolt.

AGD dropping out of the tourney world is what screwed 'Mags over. Mags are not recognized by anyone anymore. Just the other day a kid called my Minimag a "Shocker". Some kids don't know what to call it... They have never seen one before. No tourney support, no advertisements, bad rumors, all that doesn't help the image of AGD.

At least us here on AO know the truth about 'Mags.
I don't know what else to say about it.... It's kinda sad.
I will be a AGD fan for life. I really hope that AGD continues to grow in the future. I wish for new products to come out. Without Tom at the helm, I'm not so sure about how things are going to turn out...

[jewie27]

AGD needs to drop the blowforward and xvalve IMO. The xvalve is an aluminum rt valve with lvl 10. The rt valve is a 9 year old design with only 2 changes, aluminum and lvl 10. Agd should jump into the spool valve market IMO. If they made a shocker similar gun that has an amazing reg, and all those new features gun are coming stock with, it would probably sell good. If they want the gun to really take off they just need a feature or 2 that no other guns have. Like what? No idea, but they need to set their guns apart from current guns, because they are all the same nowadays. A new, good feature that will give themselves a good advantage over current guns.



I see nothing wrong with the best valve in the world. Quickest recharge, RT capability, Anti-Chop, easy maintence. For AGD to drop the X-Valve, is like saying Ford should drop the Mustang....

[ICP]

I meant that as a critisim against compaines that do that, look at spyders taiwan china Junk the design is fine but it's garbage, but look at a lot of the other american marker maufactures that are garbage, I like the quality AGD has whoever they contract to. I know WDP builds their markers in house in their own machine shops, as I understand AGD contracts out to several firms. sorry if I get less understandable it's been a long day


ohh, sorry, I mis-read, been doing that a lot lately.

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

Why is everyone focusing on a "high end" AGD lable instead of a "low end" lable.

How much more "high end" can you get than an X-Mag? It had electro, and bells and whistles, lvl 10 and eyes, etc. All any one has suggested is a complete redesign just for the sake of redesign, or cosmetics.

For the sake of perspective, AGD started with "high end" products and has essencialy stayed there. There isn't much "higher" it can go, and the higher one gets the smaller the market it can cater to. If WDP is doing everything right, then why doesn't every one own an Angle? Because for the price of 1 Angle you can buy 10 Modle-98's.

Ford doesn't exist by making GT-40's while planning on expanding into an even higher market. Ford can afford to make GT-40's because they sell alot of F-150's, Crown Victorias, the Focus, and many other arguably "low end" cars.

To continue with the car anology, what people are arguing in here is that Lamborgini needs to make a completely new car, preferably under a new nameplate, because so many people are choosing to buy Porches, Vipers and Ferraris. In the real world, there may be some point behind this. However, it is a stupid business move, to completely change _everything_ to compete in an already very competative and small market. It might work, but the odds are against it. Then you one would have to do it all again next year before one falls out of favor with one's (blatantly elitist) market.

For what ever reason the market didn't take to the X-Mag. I don't see what else they could have done better with it. Maybe AGD should follow WGP's example and try expanding "downwards".

If I was running AGD I would;

Make a new valve that had the same dimensions as the existing valves, but worked well on co2, even at the expence of faster cycling. Contract out to a Chinese company to make aluminum rails, grips frames and bodies ('cocker threads of course). Package the whole thing, call it simply "the A-Mag" and sell it for $150-200 retail.


At this point, marketing is easier. It takes less effort to sell a $200 marker as a opposed to a $1000 marker, simply because more people can afford $200. This gets one's foot into the door of a larger market, and one that is easy to keep so long as all the parts are more or less interchangable. A novice patinballer could take there entry level A-Mag and "upgrade" it with AGD's already existing top notch parts. The effect would be changing the names from refering to a specific marker and more towards a given platform. A-mag for the entry level, E-mag for the electro (entry level tourny), X-Mag for the truely high end, and another -Mag catagory for the scenario players (there pockets can be just as deep as a tourny player's).

Once a year you slap together a few parts, add some unique styling, and that will be the yearly model with the latest gizmos that the critics can play football with (until the next model year). That way, if the 2005 GT-Mag is a flop with the "tourny scene" it's no big deal, as one would still be making money hand over fist selling upgrades to all those kids that decided to by an A-Mag instead of an A-5 or Trilogy 'cocker.

This is basicaly what every one else does. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want AGD to make the latest and greatest like "everyone else", then they'll have to become like "everyone else". AGD would have to become a big brand name like SP, Kingman and WGP.

[Enemy]

does lamborginhi have a low end car?? was the mucialego not a redesign of everything before its time?? i dont remember any other awd lambos not to mention that they only make 1 model at a time meaning every new car for lambo is the only car!!

how about cadillac?? its the exact same parent company as pontiac but with an elitest attitude. does caddy have a low end hmm just a little but thats still 30plus then there is the STS, and the high end XLR.. what about the SIXTEEN? wish that would have gone to production!

you know i wonder if it would be possible to make the x valve 100% electronic not losing any recharge rate or effieciency but drastically reducing the force needed to move the bolt thus lowering the psi rating somewhere low enough to the point where the marker can actually go past 1000 psi!! AGD has proven that there was no addvantage to low pressure but ignored the biggest advantage people see in it now.. thats how much air they can use in the tank!!


idk an all electro mag would be really awesome but only a select few know the future until then we can only sit and watch.. just be happy the decision isnt yours to risk!

[Alpha]

Its been discussed before with much controversey whether paintball should be a mainstream sport, like skateboarding.

Imagine if everywhere you went, 9 year olds were wearing jerseys (not even in painabl fields), and they all had markers, and EVERYBODY who is anybody played paintball?

Now imagine that AGD is like smartparts, and has hype on their side. Every snobby 13 year old has their daddy buy them one, and everybody runs around with mags.

I personally love the enjoyment of showing up to a field and experienced plyers saying "Heh.. Look at that kid with the blender..." Then I turn around and lane them off the break.

I like how AGD is now. WE've got Rogue, Tuna and a few other dealers doing some pretty damn cool tuff. STuff that is all available to us mag lovers, but you couldn't just go to a proshop and buy a new chimera frame. Likewise its rare to see RT Pros or EMags for sale around (at least near Boston).

Right now, we have a community. Its not a mob, and I like it this way.

And to make myself clear:

Dye = Hype (Although I do like a few of their products)
AGD = Investment

[paintballbeaver]

although agd has very good products,

they arent taking steps twords keeping there company afloat

look at Smart Parts, (WGP / K2),

You wanna see a way to get agd back in the market create a gun thats around 200 dollars or lower compettion for the 98/A5 - spyder, or now the ion. and have it fast, able to run on co2 or compressed air, have eyes not a reflective... market it.

look what the trilogly has done for wgp they have placed a 130 dollar autococker out there getting more people into the sport w/ less money.

look what smart parts has done w/ the ion last time i check they have 10,000 ions on back order.....

Agd needs to establish there low end market then work up to the mid range then high end to be able to come back in the industry.

i used to see mags every where now its a treat for me to work on one or see one...


I think the best desing they could make is a automag w/ a larger dump chamber and no reg on the back include a reg like the stock cocker reg just so people can get shooting..

have it work on around 300 psi similar to the ion so it can fire well into the tank

if need be have it spring return for the low end and put an e grip on it for a step up marker like WGP is doing w/ the trilogy cocker.. then once you have the funding of the low end market step up your customers will follow.

in the last year i've seen a 90% turn around kids are sick of playing in the woods all they want is to have a place to go and play durring the weekend that isnt crowded w/ old crazy milita members.

The shop i work at has sold 65% more tourney quality guns in this year and it keeps going.

its sad that the market has gone away from quality i still remember when i got my first mag i shot the hell out of it and it never let me down..

but its time for a change..

[ApexAZ]

How would a fully carbon fiber marker be cheaper? Everything that I see for sale that uses carbon fiber is way more expensive.

[minimag03]

I think AGD is too small of a company to produce two lines of products.

[CKY_Alliance]

Its been discussed before with much controversey whether paintball should be a mainstream sport, like skateboarding.

Imagine if everywhere you went, 9 year olds were wearing jerseys (not even in painabl fields), and they all had markers, and EVERYBODY who is anybody played paintball?

Now imagine that AGD is like smartparts, and has hype on their side. Every snobby 13 year old has their daddy buy them one, and everybody runs around with mags.

I personally love the enjoyment of showing up to a field and experienced plyers saying "Heh.. Look at that kid with the blender..." Then I turn around and lane them off the break.

I like how AGD is now. WE've got Rogue, Tuna and a few other dealers doing some pretty damn cool tuff. STuff that is all available to us mag lovers, but you couldn't just go to a proshop and buy a new chimera frame. Likewise its rare to see RT Pros or EMags for sale around (at least near Boston).

Right now, we have a community. Its not a mob, and I like it this way.

And to make myself clear:

Dye = Hype (Although I do like a few of their products)
AGD = Investment

Im with you on the point that i like to have stuff others dont but the rest you kinda sound like one of the underground music people. In that i mean you dotn want your favorite band/company to get big you want them to stay underground so you can be unique and thats all fine and dandy but change is good and if you like a company why not want whats best for it??Not saying becoming a super hyped CO. is best all though it is for sales.If you are a AGD follower through and through then getting big can be to your benefit..As in new guns released from AGD. Even if its a floavor of the month type gun that can still benefit the long time agd consumers in the long run.Like i said CHANGE IS FOR THE BETTER!

[tony3]

I see nothing wrong with the best valve in the world. Quickest recharge, RT capability, Anti-Chop, easy maintence. For AGD to drop the X-Valve, is like saying Ford should drop the Mustang....

Atleast ford updates the mustang.

[JimmyBeam]

Atleast ford updates the mustang.

yea, and the new mustang.........sweeeeeeet

[AGDlover]

i've even heard TK talk about how Pros wont touch mags due to the bad rep.



ya we still play with sp guns even though most of us hate em ;)

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

But the only thing they seem to change on Mustangs every year is the tail lights. Every one is crying that the Mag platform is 10 years old, well how long did Ford use the Fox chassis for the Mustang? How long did they use the 5.0, or the now "old" 4.6?

The next time you see a Mustang on the road, count the exhaust pipes. I'll bet that most of the Mustangs you'ld see would only have one exhaust pipe, and hence be one of the less powerfull 6-cylinder "poser" Mustangs. So even Ford caters to the "low end" with cheaper and less powerful Mustangs. And every other year or so, Ford produces a "flavor of the month" type car, like the Cobra-R, Bullit, Grande, or Mach 1, and the aftermarket Saleen packages.

There's just a general atmosphere of snobery going on here. You can't have AGD be _both_ your personal favorite independant niche producer _and_ have broad appeal. AGD can't be both Ferrari and Ford. Where does one draw the line between being producing a popular marker, yet keeping it out of the hands of everyone under 18.

AGD could very easily exist in the same sort of niche markets that CCI and Palmers exist in, or they could "sell out" for a broader base like WGP or SP.

[Codekevin0403]

thinking about this, i can't imagine why AGD would want to make a 'pro' label. Isn't it fine where it is now? If SP and DYE rely on hype and product marketing and things like that to spread their name, that's great for them, but why would AGD want to follow in their footsteps and rely on hype and product marketing to sell their products? Mags have spread their name around by mouth, and if it was up to me, i'd say they've done a pretty damn good job. I think they're fine where they are.

[Lohman446]

I see nothing wrong with the best valve in the world. Quickest recharge, RT capability, Anti-Chop, easy maintence. For AGD to drop the X-Valve, is like saying Ford should drop the Mustang....

If only AGD had hype :rolleyes:

[Glickman]

If only AGD had hype :rolleyes:

well if they came out with something new they might...


cant put the blame on not having "hype"

"hype" comes with products

[Lohman446]

well if they came out with something new they might...


cant put the blame on not having "hype"

"hype" comes with products


You missed the roll eyes. AGD has hype, directly proportional to there attempts at marketting. And those who preach that hype hold to it as strongly as any SP hype out there, maybe more so. At least most of the people who speak the SP hype know its hype.

[indulgence]

in my opinion, AGD doesnt have to change anything at all. The solenoid and sear in an e/x-mag can do 21 bps. Limited to 22 bps. If any team were to get all mags and play in a tourney, they'd be fine because now everyone (including rec ball ) fields are capping at 15 bps. 3.2 already has a capping option, and maybe sometime they will get a flash that will allow ramping up to 15. There is also the predator option.

Also about the air effeciency. Unless you are playing in a scenario game. Most rec fields and especially tourneys have air on hand for you. So no matter if you are a pro, or a rec ball player. I'm pretty sure AGD has covered everything you will need.

[bound for glory]

and WHEN, NOT IF the fields do start capping at 15, whos gonna say the emag or xmag is still too slow. what new reason will you have to come on this board and bash agd and their markers? i hate it when people who should know better make comments like "the e/xmag were never popular"...i'm just a humble emag man. but i KNOW there are some emag/xmag guys out there who could tell you that yes, indeed these guns ARE tourny guns. and i'll tell you something for nothing, if you think the "PRO" teams don't shoot xmags becouse they are "outdated", well, you don't understand the very simple concept of endorsment and how it works. if agd paid these "pros" a truck load of money and gave them xmags and kisses their rules bending butts, they would shot them.that is, until the next guy came along with more money.and btw, we know we can put pred 2 boards in our emags. big woop :rolleyes:

[hAppy]

Was that an attack on Indulgence? :confused: The kid has an Xmag and he loves it.

[Lohman446]

in my opinion, AGD doesnt have to change anything at all. The solenoid and sear in an e/x-mag can do 21 bps. Limited to 22 bps. If any team were to get all mags and play in a tourney, they'd be fine because now everyone (including rec ball ) fields are capping at 15 bps. 3.2 already has a capping option, and maybe sometime they will get a flash that will allow ramping up to 15. There is also the predator option.

Also about the air effeciency. Unless you are playing in a scenario game. Most rec fields and especially tourneys have air on hand for you. So no matter if you are a pro, or a rec ball player. I'm pretty sure AGD has covered everything you will need.

AGD = keeping everything the same cause we know it works... and wondering why it doesn't sell :confused:

Theres a reason ;)

[mag88888]

yeah we need a new flagship marker, a gun that represents the company and shows how good AGD really is. people just arent aware of AGD. a new electro super marker would be good. anything that could represent AGD in a good way would be great.

[AGDlover]

they have timmys that they tinker with at AGD so i suspect they know how other guns work

[davidnj]

The whole e-mag design was good for its time. It needs a major overhaul. I own a few mags and recently had the chance to purchase any marker I wanted. I decided on an electro and any type of emag only passed thru my head for a few seconds (I ended up getting an angel g7 after shooting one at a local MT shop).

Why didn't I get the emag that can shoot as fast as I'll ever need? Couple of reasons:

The battery pack. I absolutely can not stand how that thing looks. The software. The solenoid\sear, the trigger frame and finally the effeciency. Yes I know I can refill after most every game but I like the idea of being able to shoot 'deep' into a tank.

I dont understand why the emag was never really updated. AGD should be proud of what the emag was when it came out but I think they made a mistake in never truely overhauling the emag to keep up with the other high end electros. Smaller, lighter and faster. Bash me all you want for liking the ability to shoot beyond the emags 20-22 bps when its not needed but AGDs failure to update the gun really made it unattractive to me.



in my opinion, AGD doesnt have to change anything at all. The solenoid and sear in an e/x-mag can do 21 bps. Limited to 22 bps. If any team were to get all mags and play in a tourney, they'd be fine because now everyone (including rec ball ) fields are capping at 15 bps. 3.2 already has a capping option, and maybe sometime they will get a flash that will allow ramping up to 15. There is also the predator option.

Also about the air effeciency. Unless you are playing in a scenario game. Most rec fields and especially tourneys have air on hand for you. So no matter if you are a pro, or a rec ball player. I'm pretty sure AGD has covered everything you will need.

[bound for glory]

earth to dave. can you really pull 20-22 :rolleyes: i think my emag is fast,ok. i'm pulling, maybe 12-15. MAYBE. really, buddy, and i don't put down ao'ers from nj, i'm from phillipsburg. lets try to drop this fantasy of 20-22 bps, ok? QUE LOHMAN. one day, when enough people get hurt(GOD forbid) and everybody has to lower their bps, this kind of stuff won't be an issue. than we can all come here and complain about the emags weight. and guess what, i'll agree :clap:

[davidnj]

As far as the original topic goes- I think the first thing AGD needs to do is figure out what it wants the company to be. I think they decided it would be the rec\scenario market (makes sense that market is massive). Thats competing with Tippmann and their 140-230ish markers. The TAC-One is 400+, the ULE packages are over 300. The Pro classic is only 230 but when new people are coming into paintball they simply havent heard of a mag so while its a great marker for 230 how many people are going to know about it? In every shop Ive ever been to, even one that carries pretty much only $900+ Angels, they've had at least one Tippmann marker on the wall.

I work daily with our sales team at work, while word of mouth sales are great they aren't going to carry you in the long run. Naturally there are exceptions to that. If I mention Coke, McDonalds, IBM, Nike, etc you will know what products Im refering to. AGD doesnt have that yet. They will never have it if they dont take the approach that these companies have to obtain worldwide brand recognition. Advertising. Hype. Whatever you want to call it. You have to get the product out there so people can see it and see it often.

I love AGD, as I mentioned before I have a few of their markers and have had some friends buy them also. I think TK seems to be a good person. I think he is a smart guy who made some really revolutionary products for paintball. That being said, I think he failed pretty miserably as the president of AGD. The new managment at AGD needs to get in touch with a Madison Ave firm to get some hype going. They need to redesign the emag (just deal with SP, a well built new electro *will* sell). They need to figure out how to reduce their manufacturing costs (ie get prices lower, improve profit margins).

With everything based on one valve, I think that plan is workable. Do that and I think the company grows. Dont and I think it retains a very small segment of the pball world. That whole idea opens up the new argument of which is better. Me, Im a big business type so Id love to see a mag in every driveway. :p

I was in a rush this morning so I wasnt as clear as I wanted to be. When I said shooting beyond the emags 20-22 I probably should have added that no way can I do that w\o setting tr up to like 15 (I have it set at 2 on my g7). The point I was going for and failed to make was that while I cant do it on my own these other high end guns have evolved to the point that they can basically do it for you. Is it right or wrong that these guns have the software to do this? I dont know. Do I think it is going to last on the tourny scene or in recball? No, the caps on ROF are starting to come in now.

The next point I was going for is hard to explain. The emag shoots basically as fast as I'll ever need. It has a nice adjustable trigger. Its reliable with the mech\electro mode switch. Its also much cheaper than the other markers I looked at. Now Im sure you are looking at me and wondering why I didnt get one.

Im a chemist and constantly working with computers and other electronic equipment for the majority of my time at work. When I put in a PO for a new mass spec for my lab, I can go for older technology that will do what I need for probably as low as $2000 used. However Im not going to do that, I want to get the latest hardware and software as it has its advantages over the older models despite running over 150k new.

Another failed point of mine was with the battery. When I mentioned the battery and followed it with a statement about how it looks I came across as only meaning that I disliked the battery pack. My true feelings on the battery are that it is much too large (probably because of the solenoid choice) in addition to being ugly to look at. Finally the emags board. I know a new board can be put in (predator maybe) but I dont like that the current emag board is old and difficult to make new code for beyond the basic 'stuff'. (See the post by the AO'er who is working on his own emag software).

Its almost maddening to me that AGD never did anything to update the emag (Beyond software updates). Why wasnt the body redesigned as battery technology advanced to make it smaller and lighter? Why wasnt a smaller solenoid used with a 'better' sear? Why didnt they move to breakbeam eyes (xmag I think did but that was AGDE)?

I can probably bore you with more of my reasons but I guess to be blunt: I wanted the latest technology in my hands despite knowing that the older emag tech was 'good enough'.

Oh one more thing, early on in this thread I noticed somebody mention the 'old' valve of the mag and somebody mentioned how Imps (or some other current high end marker) uses some other type of old valve technology. Instead of viewing the mags valve as old and outdated (Its not) I think that the technology surronding the emags valve is outdated and is what needs to be updated. Id love to see somebody start with just the valve and build a new electro around it.


ps. On my mech mag I probably cap out at 10-12 and possibly a really quick burst a bit more. According to my g7 software Ive hit 21, I know Im not shooting that fast consistantly but Im certain Im over 15 consistantly. Guess I'll have to record it and analyze the sound.

pps. I noticed a pit ref in your 'sig', did you wrestle?

ppps. holy long post, sorry!


earth to dave. can you really pull 20-22 :rolleyes: i think my emag is fast,ok. i'm pulling, maybe 12-15. MAYBE. really, buddy, and i don't put down ao'ers from nj, i'm from phillipsburg. lets try to drop this fantasy of 20-22 bps, ok? QUE LOHMAN. one day, when enough people get hurt(GOD forbid) and everybody has to lower their bps, this kind of stuff won't be an issue. than we can all come here and complain about the emags weight. and guess what, i'll agree :clap:

[bound for glory]

i know where your coming from, dave. what i'd love to see is agd and chris of devilmag fame to team up. you are right. the emag does need upgrading. and the pit i was refering to was a slame dance pit. i use to go to a lot of hardcore/punk shows when i was young.i'm 37 now. i'm waaaay too old to do that now. ;)

[tyrion2323]

To the original topic:

In order to have a "pro line" or a "value line," you need to be popular. AGD is not popular outside of AO. They have two guns, and that's it.

To the "hype" topic:

Being brainwashed into thinking that the mag valve is "the best in the world" sounds sort of like hype to me. TK just threw around the word "hype" whenever he wanted a paper-thin excuse not to actually do something.

As for where AGD is now:

AGD needs several new markers in the market:

AGD FireStorm - $129 [classic valve, ULE body, Intelliframe, 1-piece barrel]
AGD Panther - $399 [XValve, One-piece body OTV, Electronic Frame, barrel]
AGD Predator - $699 [mQ Valve, One-piece body OTV, E-Blade, etc]

Yes, it means cutting temporary losses, but with marketing, all guns could compete with certain price ranges.

[ultralight]

Id love to see somebody start with just the valve and build a new electro around it.

exactly. i definitely think that the emag is way overdue for a compolete cosmetic overhaul. especially with the advent of the ULT, which will allow for a much smaller solenoid and require less juice to run, meaning one 9 volt in the grip.

i'm thinking something "DevilMag-esque". call it anything you want as long as it's not "----Mag", and advertize the crap out of it. make sure that it is all anyone in the sport sees for months before it comes out.

or, as one suggested earlier, make a lower end/rec/ marker. which i guess they have with the pro-classic.

that brings up another point, "CLASSIC". kids don't want classic, they want cutting edge. calling something classic makes it sound like a nelspot.

just another thought, why don't they make a batch of aluminum "classic" valves? it seems that it would be cheaper than stainless. i know that you'd sacrifice longevity but most kids nowadays don't keep a low end/ rec ball marker as a primary for more than five years anyway. and the aluminum valve should outlast that no problem.

another person posted that AGD isn't large enough to run two product lines. i'm not suggesting spawning a whole new company with new staff and a new building, i'm basically suggesting that they redesign the e/xmag to keep it up to date with current technology and design, and give it a name that will distance it from the somewhat tarnished reputation of past automags as heavy, inefficient blenders.

i dunno, i'm tired.

[ShadowNife]

correct me if im wrong but isnt the xvalve basically an aluminum retro valve...?

is the retro valve that much harder to machine than the classic that it warrants the $225 price tag as opposed to the much cheaper classic?

So to touch upon the post above, i guess it isn't cheaper to manufacture in aluminum, though it definitely would make it a lot lighter.