DYE sues SP! DISCUSS!

[LudavicoSoldier]

Check it out: http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=9013&messageid=1112902324

Interesting to say the least!

EDIT -

I read through some of the paperwork, and, correct me if I am wrong, this has to do with spool valve technology. A spool valve involves two chambers (supply camber and dump chamber) whos opening/closing is controlled by the movement of the guns bolt. The Matrix uses it, as does the Ion, though there are small differences. I think the complaint regarding the Shocker is more related to the bolt kit, which increases the efficiency of the Shocker. The Matrix HE bolt kit did the same thing for the Matrix's efficiency well before the new Shocker came out. Let me read more...

[JoshK]

here is a direct link (http://haveblue.org/dyevssp/part1.pdf) to the pdf file for those lazy people...

I just saw this on mcarterbrown and was going to post it.

[Glickman]

wow.. a gas powered gun patent? thats really flaming...


lets see pbn 10 year olds come out with anti dye stickers because they go after every single paintball company in the business...

[JimmyBeam]

battle of the heavyweights. this should be a good one

[Gumbe]

umm that just a bunch of nothin to me..can u put that in words i know..lol

[Glickman]

i hope the bottom isnt the royalty they are askins.

im sure everyone wants to see their gun go up 250 bucks

[Conversekidz]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

SP gets a taste of their own medicine

[JoshK]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

SP gets a taste of their own medicine

They allready did...starting out with WDP.

[Glickman]

extre extre! Dye ruins paintball!

[johnson88]

wait isnt this a bad move on dyes part because arnt they paying rolaty's to smart parts because of the electro trigger so sp is gonna be pissed. But any ways...


Who do you thinks gonna win this?

[danheneise]

is it just me or isn't this old news? :tard:

[Codekevin0403]

hmmm

the tides have turned i see




*edit* whoa, something just hit me...and it's a question. What do you think is at stake here?

[hAppy]

wow paintball is going downhill quick.

[matt-o]

well everyone, paintball prices are going to fly sky high if they win.

[MonsterMag]

Go DYE :headbang:

[JoshK]

I'm cheering for the underdog!

[mandatory]

who cares, both these compinies will still be around after the dust settles, both still making quality products. its just a choice of affiliation or prefrence. I prefer to stay numb to these legal battles, and just reap their benifits. ill still be buying SP as well as DYE as wel *** WDP s well as ICD as well as WGP products no matter what the outcome. as long as they can provide something of interes to me, i will buy it from them. Your the final say in what you buy. shop wiesly.

[JoshK]

who cares, both these compinies will still be around after the dust settles, both still making quality products. its just a choice of affiliation or prefrence. I prefer to stay numb to these legal battles, and just reap their benifits. ill still be buying SP as well as DYE as wel *** WDP s well as ICD as well as WGP products no matter what the outcome. as long as they can provide something of interes to me, i will buy it from them. Your the final say in what you buy. shop wiesly.

But! Like someone else said...I dont wanna pay the high royalty fees that are possible if Dye wins...but I guess I don't care...because I'm not going to be buying from either company anytime soon.


BTW...could you imagine a $675 Ion? :tard:

[Chipper]

Now would be an excellent time to come out with an entirely new marker, one that noone else can pick on. If this goes through like I think it might, it will turn into a patent war, with prices skyrocketing. A new, cheap product, or something made out of country, would be extremely successful.

[Steelrat]

Wow, its a good thing DYE didnt do anything like directly ripping off the AKA reg designs, or they'd look like real hipocrites.

[LudavicoSoldier]

As I don't have time to read through DYE's filing, anyone who wants to write up a good summary is encouraged to do so. I'll quote you in my first post if you don't mind.

[Chronobreak]

i cant read or understand all that

and im not gonna try

let me know the verdict though ;)

[mandatory]

OH YEAH...iI CANT BELIEVE I FORGOT THE BEST COMPANY OUT OF THEM ALL!!!!! AGD. i like how AGD has so eloquently skerted the "Hype machine". I hate how paintball is so prone to the placebo effect...have some "pros" tell everyone that the gun rips, and all of a sudden its the next best thing, when alot of the market is cosmetic upgrades.

[Link44]

yea....i don't understand any of that mumbojumbo.... :tard: ...anyone wish to clerify?

[LudavicoSoldier]

I read through some of the paperwork, and, correct me if I am wrong, this has to do with spool valve technology. A spool valve involves two chambers (supply camber and dump chamber) whos opening/closing is controlled by the movement of the guns bolt. The Matrix uses it, as does the Ion, though there are small differences. I think the complaint regarding the Shocker is more related to the bolt kit, which increases the efficiency of the Shocker. The Matrix HE bolt kit did the same thing for the Matrix's efficiency well before the new Shocker came out. Let me read more...

[Steelrat]

yea....i don't understand any of that mumbojumbo.... :tard: ...anyone wish to clerify?

It states that DYE is suing SP for infringing on patent 5,613,483, which is for:

A piston and cylinder assembly for a gas powered gun, has a cylinder containing a piston rod slidably movable between a loading position in which the leading end of the piston rod is in a withdrawn position, and a firing position in which the piston rod has moved forwardly. The cylinder has first and second chambers through which the piston rod extends, the cylinder being connectable to a pressurized gas supply supplying pressurized gas to the first chamber when the piston rod is in the loading position. The piston rod permits communication between the pressurized gas supply and the first chamber and prevents communication between the first and second chambers when in the loading position, and when in the firing position prevents communication between the pressurized gas supply and the first chamber and permits communication between the first chamber and the second chamber to cause pressurized gas in the first chamber to pass into the second chamber. The piston rod has a longitudinally extending passage extending from the front and rearwardly along the piston rod to a location where the passage communicates with the exterior of the piston rod. The location communicates with the second chamber when the piston rod is in the firing position to cause pressurized gas to pass from the second chamber into the longitudinally extending passage to the front end of the piston rod for propelling a projectile from the barrel of a gas powered gun.

[CoolHand]

That was clear as mud.

OK, I'm going to boil it down for you all:

DYE is claiming that the Shocker SFT, the ION, and the TurboCharger bolt kit are infringing on their patent which is numbered above someplace.

DYE bought this patent from the originators of the EMatrix (be that Gen E or whoever), and use the basic premise in their DM line of markers. The patent in question covers a mechanical version of the now famous EMatrix PB marker.

This spool valve technology is what they are sueing over.

DYE is asking for an injunction barring SP from making Shockers, IONs, and the HE bolt, as well as damages for loss of sales, court costs, and any punative damages the court might award.

They have demanded a jury trial, so this one is going to court, no settlements here.

From here down is speculation on my part --> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was rumored that SP and DYE had traded technology (IE the electro tech for the spool valve tech), and that the two were on amicable terms.

This seems to have been either a) a gentlman's agreements which DYE is now done with, or b) totall crap.

If it is option a), I can totally see why DYE is miffed. SP took their technology, and implemented it in a way that basically steals the thunder from DYE's line of markers. Maybe at first they were unsure of the impact it would have on them (if any), but now it seems clear that those two markers are making a big enough dent in DYE's sales to warrant the effort to quash them.

Since they requested trial by jury, it is clear they do not want to simply settle or renegotiate their current deal. The mean to fight.

I predict that this will be messy, with the possibility that it may not end well for anyone.

[ICP]

I was going to ask about the spool valve tech in the ion, being a dye patent. Guess I don't have to now. And now all the SP people will be moaning and groaning about dye, even though they defended SP to the death with thier patent lawsuits. Personally, I don't care because I shoot an AUTOMAG

[Maggot6]

Whatever happens, my mag will still shoot. :)
P.S. - I root for DYE...

[bleachit]

call me stupid, but does this mean dye owns the patent to the supernova paintball marker?

cuz he who owns that patent, theoretically could have them both by the errr "special area"

[gc82000]

Whoa the Supernova. Have not heard that name in a while. I thought it had a boltless operating system, I might be very wrong. But did it have a moving barrel system that fed the balls and such. Wasnt it also created by a man who specialized in shooting shirts and hotdogs into the stands at sporting events.

[BigEvil]

IF Dye wins this..(Evil Laugh)..... so much for the $300 ION.

LMFAO

[bleachit]

Whoa the Supernova. Have not heard that name in a while. I thought it had a boltless operating system, I might be very wrong. But did it have a moving barrel system that fed the balls and such. Wasnt it also created by a man who specialized in shooting shirts and hotdogs into the stands at sporting events.

yup articulating barrel, boltless design, and I believe, original spool valve in paintball

[gc82000]

yup articulating barrel, boltless design, and I believe, original spool valve in paintball
I knew it, thanks bleachit.

[WARPED1]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

SP gets a taste of their own medicine
No. When will you realize this happens every day in nearly every business?! Or, are you not from America?

[Steelrat]

Live by the sword, die by the sword....

[nippinout]

No. When will you realize this happens every day in nearly every business?! Or, are you not from America?

It doesn't mean that we have to stand for it or just go along our merry ways complacent with these methods.

[shadowspar]

I'm not a big fan the way patents seem to be used to stifle innovation and growth in the sport instead of promoting them. But you have to admit that it's poetic justice, the way this happened. You know what they say...


Live by the sword, die by the sword...

...hey! You beat me to it!

[Lohman446]

If Dye wins I will be greatly surprised. SP does not seem to do very much without one eye towards the courts, and I think they know what they are doing. Like it or not.. there decisions are made by people who know the patent system, and I doubt they just ignored one. Flipped off the system as they walked through loopholes, sure, but I doubt they loose. Remember, WDPs "big" win against them forcing them to change the board system was overturned... these people are smarter than many people give them credit for. They probably found some designer of the spool valve who hadn't signed with the devlopment company Dye bought and can now jointly hold the patent :rolleyes: (Ok, maybe not) WOuldn't that be ironic.

[Richter]

I watch on cnn headline news the other day that somebody went to court to dispute the patent on peanut butter and jelley sandwiches that don't have crust on them. I don't remember which company has the "uncrustables" but they have a patent on it! The dispute basicly saying that there was no inovation in creating a uncrusted pb&j sandwich and the patent should be thrown out.
so i guess anything is patentable; shoot the ribbed piece of cardboard around a cup of coffee is patented!

[Enemy]

well it seems neither of sps guns really completely defy the patent!! it seems that neither desing closes off the flow of air from the source to the dump chamber! that makes sense as i couldnt understand why sp designed the shocker like that, i know why now! but the HE bolt kit fits the exact description of the dye patent but then why wait almost 2 years after th introduction of the shocker to actually bring this to court!


edit: reading the patent anyone get dejavu with the design of the atuomag isnt that patented? i wonder could agd unknowingly hold the patent for all spool valve style markers? yeah im reaching with this one but hey wouldnt that be funny!

[jewie27]

So is this really about who has a patent on paintball markers in general? All paintball markers are gas powered...........

Somone clarify this for me.

Go Dye!!! Counter sueing is fun.... :p

[Enemy]

So is this really about who has a patent on paintball markers in general? All paintball markers are gas powered...........

Somone clarify this for me.

Go Dye!!! Counter sueing is fun.... :p


if you read the patent and have a working knowledge of the 2-3 markers in question you will realize that the patent is not for paintball markers it is for the use of the spool valve!!! have a look it describes spool valves really well!

[LudavicoSoldier]

After the diplay of disgust with SP's legal warfare, are you guys going to support DYE in their campaign simply because they are not Smart Parts? Is what DYE is doing any less wrong?

[TheDuelist]

It's not wrong, it's business. Paintball is not "going under" it's suffering growing pains. Reality is setting in and people aren't liking it. Get over it because this is how its going to be from now on. Does it suck? In some respects. Is it the natural evolution of the sport? Oh yeah. This is just the tip of the iceberg. If any one of you thats complaining owned a paintball comapny and had someone walk all over your product stealing money from you, tell me you wouldn't sue? Its the nature of the beast. Obvioulsy DYE believes they have a case or they wouldn't have gone to court. It doesn't matter what the consumer thinks because we just buy the equipment, we don't make it and our livelyhoods don't depend on the products made by said company. Its not about us, its about the people employed by DYE and the way they make their money, be it good or bad. Stop the "woe is me, woe is paintball" attitude. Paintball will still be here, whether your a part of it is the question you need to answer.

[WARPED1]

It's not wrong, it's business. Paintball is not "going under" it's suffering growing pains. Reality is setting in and people aren't liking it. Get over it because this is how its going to be from now on. Does it suck? In some respects. Is it the natural evolution of the sport? Oh yeah. This is just the tip of the iceberg. If any one of you thats complaining owned a paintball comapny and had someone walk all over your product stealing money from you, tell me you wouldn't sue? Its the nature of the beast. Obvioulsy DYE believes they have a case or they wouldn't have gone to court. It doesn't matter what the consumer thinks because we just buy the equipment, we don't make it and our livelyhoods don't depend on the products made by said company. Its not about us, its about the people employed by DYE and the way they make their money, be it good or bad. Stop the "woe is me, woe is paintball" attitude. Paintball will still be here, whether your a part of it is the question you need to answer.
AMEN to that!

[JimmyBeam]

its business as usual in the corporate world. companies do this on a regular basis. heck, they have a team of lawyers that get paid to do nothing but attack other companies. noone is going under, if anything, its the consumer that pays for it in the end.

[peewee]

Just wait till they start buying up other companies & shutting them down. ;)

[rkjunior303]

This argument is kinda funny...

Everyone is stating "go dye, it's just business" but couldn't the same thing be said towards SmartParts in how they handled THEIR patents?

Kinda hippocritical to me.

[Scott Hudnall]

Uhm.......spool valves have been around long time before DYE or SP started utilizing them in their markers. This will be interesting. But oh well .....I'll continue to shoot my 'mags and be happy with them.

[Evil Bob]

This argument is kinda funny...

Everyone is stating "go dye, it's just business" but couldn't the same thing be said towards SmartParts in how they handled THEIR patents?

Kinda hippocritical to me.

No, its not the same thing. SP took their original patent for the shocker (which no one had a problem with) and filed for an extension, in which the patent was broadened greatly to include common sense features such as a switch or a battery (which everyone had a problem with because its absurd). They then took said "new and improved" patent and issued *ALL* electronic marker manufacturers a cease and desist order. They were not protecting their original intellectual property of the shocker, they wanted to wipe out all electronic competition or force their competitors to pay a royalty/licensing fee. These are not normal business practices, this borders on criminal activity in the eyes of many. Its these types of business practices that have MicroSoft in constant trouble with govts all around the world for monopolistic issues.

DYE purchased the intellectual rights to the spool valve (including existing patents that date back to 1995 for said technology) and has discovered that SP is infringing on DYE's technology. DYE has not broadened their patent to rediculous proportions, DYE is not going after every single electro manufacturer, they're going specifically after the single entity (SP) that is infringing upon their specific markers design. This is normal business practice and very different then what SP is doing.

-Evil Bob

[bleachit]

DYE purchased the intellectual rights to the spool valve (including existing patents that date back to 1995 for said technology)

-Evil Bob

so DYE does own the Nova/supernova patent?

[Paintchucker]

But! Like someone else said...I dont wanna pay the high royalty fees that are possible if Dye wins...but I guess I don't care...because I'm not going to be buying from either company anytime soon.


BTW...could you imagine a $675 Ion? :tard:



My personal theory is that this is just one of their games... Dave Youngblood is showing his old buddies at SP what the whole industry has been facing the last couple years, and this may be as much a "See what it feels like" lawsuit as anything...

Or maybe they just want to get the rights to make a special edition "DYEION" :dance:

[hitech]

No, its not the same thing. SP took their original patent for the shocker (which no one had a problem with) and filed for an extension, in which the patent was broadened greatly to include common sense features such as a switch or a battery (which everyone had a problem with because its absurd)...


:hail:

[tony3]

This argument is kinda funny...

Everyone is stating "go dye, it's just business" but couldn't the same thing be said towards SmartParts in how they handled THEIR patents?

Kinda hippocritical to me.

Can't agree more.

[player4]

if you have just started reading this arguement, only read Evil Bob's post.

He knows what he is talking about, and he's right.

[Lohman446]

if you have just started reading this arguement, only read Evil Bob's post.

He knows what he is talking about, and he's right.


Its not.. though some of it is in theory it is not all as true as it sounds. I do not beleive that all makers were issued cease and desist orders for one, and I personally have not seen all the patent applciations, all the court filings, or been in discussion with enough top level execs from teh companies involved to have a good idea what is going on. I have some idea, but I highly doubt what I have is the whole story. I expect the same is true for everyone on these boards, with a few exceptions

[SummaryJudgement]

......nothing will change....

[thorn]

im not really leaning towards one side. dye makes some great guns, sp makes some great guns. i dont care what you say, the ion is amazing for 285, and the vision shocker isnt half bad for 700 bucks.

[FireITup14]

isnt the freestyle a spool valve?

[thorn]

blow forward

[gotboostedvr6]

any new info on this?

[Glickman]

any new info on this?

yep, the news is that is happend a year ago ;)

[FARMER00]

baahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, piss on it all just use a mech gun

[SpecialBlend2786]

http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story041644.php
-tribute to Ricker.
--Yeah, its a good movie.
---No, I refuse to use those stupid slashes
----Or the owls
:hail:

[iambored]

This is gonna be ugly and which ever side loses is gonna have their prices sky-rocket
But I don't buy dye or sp so its all good

[cyrus-the-virus]

I'm supporting SP through this mess.

DYE products are over priced and over hyped and put a worse attitude in peoples heads than the ion does.

I'd rather fork out $600(which I won't) for a SP shocker rather than $1200 for a DM7. I think everyone is sick of the $1000+ guns.

I may not like you but GO SP!!!! :dance:

EDIT: Well nvm then I guess it would have been the DM5 and the PM5, considering this was posted over a year ago.

No wonder it wasent on pbnation. Stupid necro posters. who won anyhow?

[SlartyBartFast]

original spool valve in paintball

in paintball, IMO that's the evil of the patent system. Commercial off-the-shelf ideas and compoents patented in other areas. Little is "new" in paintball to anyone with a pneumatics or controls background.


No, its not the same thing. SP took their original patent for the shocker (which no one had a problem with) and filed for an extension, in which the patent was broadened greatly to include common sense features such as a switch or a battery (which everyone had a problem with because its absurd).

I will grant that the exact layout of the valve in this case is probably legitimately paintball specific. As any non-paintball spool valves don't incorporate the firing of a projectile.

But SP isn't the only one trying to patent the blatently obvious. WDP patented the use of programming, displays, and communication from controller chips. All off-the-shelf functions of every microcontroller.

Guess the people with the most money for the patent lawyers wins...

[Lohman446]

Thread resurection? Already settled if I recall on the agreement signed between SP, Dye, and WDP

[cyrus-the-virus]

Thread resurection? Already settled if I recall on the agreement signed between SP, Dye, and WDP

Doesen't WDP use a popit? correct me if I'm wrong.

[SCpoloRicker]

RogueFactor:

http://www.furdell.com/images/aliens-hudson.jpg

[hitech]

Guess the people with the most money for the patent lawyers wins...

:hail:

[y0da900]

Doesen't WDP use a popit? correct me if I'm wrong.

The WDP portion stems from the electronics part of the dispute, not the spool features.

And yes, Angels use poppets.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

I'd rather fork out $600(which I won't) for a SP shocker rather than $1200 for a DM7. I think everyone is sick of the $1000+ guns.


Just want to comment here- I think there will be a great shift in where manufacturers price their products. Prices will begin to come down as new, lower priced markers, such as the Rail and Mini, come out. Or there will at least be much less demand for these $1000+ markers.

[LudavicoSoldier]

holy crap! this thread is STILL going!? wow...

[dahoeb]

ehhh let the men in suits go to court. they're all filthy rich and are just getting greedy now. This is clearly not for the betterment of the game (yes i know, they're businesses just trying to make money...). i don't really care who wins. i wouldn't lose any sleep if the judge were to have both of them shut down. :ninja:
sorry for the rant.