Is it me or SP?

[Lohman446]

Ok... I'm getting sick of having bad luck. I know that SP quality is not the greatest in the world, but I seem to get all the bad luck on them - let me step back and say I have helped people who have had no problems with there SP products

Today I open my new style Max-flo for my Ion... OMG it fits the marker sooo well - so I air it up

SOB leaks out the front, so I lube the front o-ring, now the on-off doesn't work. I say screw it, rebox it, and hand it over to be sent back to SP...

My Ion: Leaked from a macro fitting, which SP of course refused to admit fault on, so I purchased a new fitting

My last shocker: On getting there was a leak around the bolt, no big deal I replaced an o-ring and good to go

Shocker before that: Endcap seizes into the body - I force it out and there is a thread folded forward - I clean it up, fix it, replace the end cap. Of course SP refuses to acknowledge that could have been there fault.

Shocker before that: Leaks on air up, the macro-line on its bad, so I replace line and a fitting.

Ok.. is it just me? I know that I have put together SP products that have had no problems with them, and I know they work well once set... but when do you say enough is enough

[D-Block]

Should've gotten a Dynaflow :headbang:



Some people have good luck with SP, some have badluck. Unfortunately I've heard more cases with SP at fault.

[SAW]

Flaws can be expected in the machining.

Denial by the company is unacceptable.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

At least everything ended well. It is well known the Smart Parts does not have the best quality control as well as customer service.

[MonsterMag]

Smart Parts is a great company , but they leak ;)

[Snap Shooter]

My Teammate just purchased a new Vision Shocker while at the Ultimate Madness on April 2nd... actually he stole it for $650... but he screws his tank on for the second time and a thread breaks inside the asa on/off... one could argue that the threads on the tank reg were at fault, or maybe my teammated screwed the tank on wrong, but having known a little about the quality in SP machining details from others, I firmly believe that it was a defect in the asa threading. Now he may have to buy a new tank reg... so much for the savings on the marker.

[Steelrat]

SP's QC is crap, thats all there is to it. I'm betting if someone made quality versions of their stuff, it would perform better. Their deisgns are essentially solid.

[Lohman446]

SP's QC is crap, thats all there is to it. I'm betting if someone made quality versions of their stuff, it would perform better. Their deisgns are essentially solid.


Of course they are, but what has SP designed themselves without borrowing or buying from another company. I like SP, I think there products perform well, are reliable (once fixed right) and are a good value. However, I am gettign sick of problems wtih my stuff out of the box, and there techline feeding me BS.

[mark_1791]

Blame It On Smart Parts! Yaaaay!

[Southparkrocks]

Their bastard aluminum doesn't even anno well, scratches easily and rubs off.

[Evil Bob]

Deniability is typically the first answer, especially from large companies with lots of product on the market. Returns cut into your overall profits in the form of man hours, shipping fees, and replacement parts.

That being the case, many companies would rather not take such a hit to their profits and instead outright lie to the customers about design flaws and problems then admit guilt. Some will completely ignore the problem because it will take too much money to fix in a timely manner.

-Evil Bob

[AGD]

And they should fix it why? You keep buying the product don't you?

AGD

[Cameo]

Hate to say it but.... I TOLD YOU SO!!!!
:rofl:

SP bad... very bad...
when teaching my son the rules of paint ball number one was "saftey first" the second was "nothing worthwhile comes outta Loyalhanna except for thier beer, and even that is debateable"


~steph

[mark_1791]

And they should fix it why? You keep buying the product don't you?

AGDIndeed.

[NoForts4Me]

And they should fix it why? You keep buying the product don't you?

AGDNice :D

I think a lot of consumers of Paintball products are like computer and software consumers: you assume when you buy something it isn't going to work completely right, so you upgrade, patch, fix, etc. to get the product working the way you expect it to. After a while, you forget you that you should be paying for a working product, not a broken one.

[teufelhunden]

And they should fix it why? You keep buying the product don't you?

AGD


Jealous?

[Kallahan]

Smart Parts has taken notes from the automotive industry, They generally do multiple runs on their markers with slight differences in how they are made. The first run is usally pretty bad, the next run they fix some of their problems. Notice when a vehicle gets recalled it is only certain VIN's? thats because even though a car may be the same model they can have differences. Always wait until the second run on vehicles and smart parts products (usally they are made 3 mo after the first batch.)

They need money to fuel development and keep their profits up to appease stock holders, so they get their products out the door early while they still have problems with them. The video game industry is also notorius for this.

[Lohman446]

And they should fix it why? You keep buying the product don't you?

AGD


Because when I wanted a single tube electro marker with an eye to replace what I was using at the time, and I needed it the next week, where was I supposed to buy one? I can call SP today, order a marker and a rebuild kit, and have a functional marker next week at a price that is extremely competetive. I bought a Shocker because I liked the feel of a mag, but the advantages of an electro with an eye. I ordered a Shocker because I had been having to constantly tune my LX - trying to be on the edge of performance with it... I wanted dual ball detents because of the Halo on top. Were these actual performance upgrades? I think so, and really what I think is rather important, or was at the time because I am the consumer. Frankly, I ordered a Shocker because it was what the mag at the time should have been...

I ordered a DevilMag, because I like mags.. because I like using one. I don't particularly like the valve system - I would have liked to see AGD change from a spring return to something else, air, whatever. By turning off the pressure against the bolt movement when firing, it seems basic to me, we could have lowered operating pressure without sacrificing recharge rate. We perhaps could have helped recoil. I don't know physics as well as you do. My point is, there seems to be better ways out there. Either way... you probably have a clue how long the wait is on a DevilMag... and I am not a patient person.

I ordered a Shocker, frankly because it seemed to me to have taken an old system that worked, listened the players, and gave them what they wanted (at least partly).

I order SP products because I beleive, at any major event that I am at they will be at for the forseeable future. Where else can I get the combination of price, performance, and beleif that they will be here in five years? Dye - overpriced, they don't even make an adjustable air flow system that I am aware of. Air America - awesome warranty, but again, the price is high. To me, SP products have the right combiniation of the variables I am looking for. Are there bad things? Yeh, there tech support flat out lies to me more often than not, to the point I don't even bother talking to them anymore. I think they should send me everything dissassembled, I'll put it together apparently as well as they do. There are issues, but I beleive with an SP product, a bit of time, that I can make it a great performer. Does it suck that I have to take time to set up "new" systems to work? Yes it does. Tell me though, where I turn that offers me the same performance, same price, same availability, same "confidence in being there next year and the year after at the events I go to" that doesn't have these issues. Its not PMI/Evil - I've teched there markers. Its not BLAST. Its not Dye. Its not Mac-Dev. Planet Eclipse - maybe?

I buy what I do, because when comparing the pros and cons, and acknowledging the cons, SP comes closest to offering me what I want at the price I am willing to pay.

I wasn't going to buy a Max-flo system... but I talked to the salesman, and we discussed issues I have had in the past. I got a price on it... well that had obvious consideration given. Am I annoyed that it didn't work right? More than you would beleive. Why am I willing to get over it? Because it will be fixed... and it will work well.

I don't mean to turn this into long winded... but its going to be

Why do I buy from SP and not AGD? For one.. I have a DevilMag ordered... so its not entirely true.. But the question remains.
For an air system - Price... I could not get a flatline for what I could a Max-flo
Useability - whatever goes wrong with a max-flo I can get parts for
Looks - yep, I'm shallow

For a marker?
My demands of a marker, in order 1) durability on field 2) eye(s) 3) profile 4) ease of use (maintenance) 5) dual detents 6) price 7) efficiency 8) how low into the tank?

1& 3 were a toss up. 4 Ill give the mag 7 sucks with both (comparatively, though I did get a HE bolt kit and it helped) 2,5, & 8 were all to the Shocker

[Lohman446]

They need money to fuel development and keep their profits up to appease stock holders,

SP is a publically traded company? :rolleyes:

[teufelhunden]

Obviously not, but a company does not need to be publicly traded to have investors.

[Lohman446]

Obviously not, but a company does not need to be publicly traded to have investors.

I'm sorry - I got anally picky, and don't anyone take this personally. Here is why: It annoys me when outsiders talk to teh motivation of companies and why they do certain things. Obviously the vast majority of companies are out there to make a profit.. of course. But for someone to say well the only reason company X did this was money just annoys me. Yes, I'm sure it was a consideration. However, I very highly doubt that the people who state it have been in on the discussions, have intricate knowledge of the companies financials, etc. to be able to make it. From what I see (product development, selling inventory, etc.) AGD is going out. However TK says this is not the case. Considering he has knowledge I do not have I beleive him. We make a lot of guesses on companies motiviations etc. without having enough knowledge about there financials, management, etc. to make them.

[Carbon]

Jealous?


ohhh ZING!

[slade]

weren't you the sp fan who was saying that they may not be a perfect company, but that the shocker and ion and other sp products were definately great products? :p


Because when I wanted a single tube electro marker with an eye to replace what I was using at the time, and I needed it the next week, where was I supposed to buy one? I can call SP today, order a marker and a rebuild kit, and have a functional marker next week at a price that is extremely competetive. I bought a Shocker because I liked the feel of a mag, but the advantages of an electro with an eye. I ordered a Shocker because I had been having to constantly tune my LX - trying to be on the edge of performance with it... I wanted dual ball detents because of the Halo on top. Were these actual performance upgrades? I think so, and really what I think is rather important, or was at the time because I am the consumer. Frankly, I ordered a Shocker because it was what the mag at the time should have been...

I ordered a Shocker, frankly because it seemed to me to have taken an old system that worked, listened the players, and gave them what they wanted (at least partly).
the shocker is a spool valve system, which i beleive they took from dye. they werent the first to come out with it and it is not what the mag should have been... that is the freestyle, which seems to be a better fit to what you want. it has a similar feel to a mag, has an eye, a low profile, and is cheap. it is not that efficient and i dont know much about its reliability, but to me it seems like a better choice.

[Lohman446]

weren't you the sp fan who was saying that they may not be a perfect company, but that the shocker and ion and other sp products were definately great products?

They are good products, for the price you pay. They are not a perfect company, there quality control and tech support suck. I still don't see how I was that far off in the idea that they may not be perfect, but they are decent products.

Have I had problems with them - like you wouldn't beleive. However, even with those taken into consideration I still don't see anyone else offering me the things I want in equipment, at least not in a combination that suits my needs as well as SPs. My air system was a very well considered opinion, and it was SP who matched my needs best. The same has been true of other SP products.

And when I say what the mag should have been.... the mag could have been the next big thing - as the Shocker was in 03. I don't necessarily mean a replica, I mean a marker taken from the past, consideration of its shortcomings evaluated, and updated to the current needs (or wants) of the players.

[SlartyBartFast]

Because when I wanted a single tube electro marker with an eye to replace what I was using at the time, and I needed it the next week, where was I supposed to buy one?

Needed? Really?

There is precious little in paintball that is needed. Most of it is just WANTED.

As for the "edge of performace" bit, well paintball is NOT F1 where another thousanth of a second off lap time might mean millions of dollars.


we could have lowered operating pressure

Another poor victim of the paintball hype machine.... :cry:

[Lohman446]

Needed? Really?

There is precious little in paintball that is needed. Most of it is just WANTED.

As for the "edge of performace" bit, well paintball is NOT F1 where another thousanth of a second off lap time might mean millions of dollars.



Another poor victim of the paintball hype machine.... :cry:

Yeh... because there is absolutely zero advantage to a lower operating pressure.. shooting lower into the tank for instance :rolleyes: . Do I buy all the hype that there is some mythical advantage? no. Do I buy all the hype that there is zero advantage? NO. It seems to me, a lot of people who complain about hype, are so "anti-hype" they don't dare to realize that there may be some advantages to the things hyped. They see hype and say "now way, this is just as good". Thats why so many people use mags... because there just as good and these new markers have absolutely no advantage over them. See what happens when you get a knee jerk reaction to "hype" and don't change with the desires of your market, or change the desires of your market yourself.

As for the edge of performance - no we are not F1 racers. Does that mean that these go-carts in the 100CC class are not pushing the edge of performance for what they are? The point here is we are on the cutting edge of what we do. Anytime your pushing that edge your bound to have some issues - its generally part of life. We are playing in systems that require tight tolerances, our power systems (air) require it. Use a proven, reliable system that may not have some of the advantages of the newest things and you will get away from some of these reliability issues, though you may not have the performance. I'm thinking the classic valve, tippman, etc.

Want... need - your right, I don't need a lot of things in paintball, I want them. You still get the point.

[slade]

They are good products, for the price you pay. They are not a perfect company, there quality control and tech support suck. I still don't see how I was that far off in the idea that they may not be perfect, but they are decent products.

Have I had problems with them - like you wouldn't beleive. However, even with those taken into consideration I still don't see anyone else offering me the things I want in equipment, at least not in a combination that suits my needs as well as SPs. My air system was a very well considered opinion, and it was SP who matched my needs best. The same has been true of other SP products.

And when I say what the mag should have been.... the mag could have been the next big thing - as the Shocker was in 03. I don't necessarily mean a replica, I mean a marker taken from the past, consideration of its shortcomings evaluated, and updated to the current needs (or wants) of the players.
by "not a perfect company" i was more talking about their buisness practices like ripping off designs and suing so many companies, not their tech support and reliability shortcomings. i just found it sorta funny that you advocated ions and shockers before and now started a thread about how many problems their products have. but forget it, it doesnt matter.

and i still think that a freestyle is just as much of what youre looking for as a shocker is. and although i have not used a dynaflow reg, from what i have heard it would be a better choice than a smart parts regulator. i was just in a battlebots IQ competition and made a pneumatic bot, and due to regulations had to use a smart parts regulator, and i did not like the thing at all. it regulated well but was VERY bulky, only adjusted up to ~250 psi (ok for battlebots, not great for most pb guns) the screw to lock the reg broke, and its just overall not a great design.

[Tim 3]

F#@$ smat parts BUY AGD
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[JAM]

I don't know about advantages to shockers, but my cocker shoots farther than my old mag. ;)

Lohman446, I give you lots of props for calling out Smart Part's weaknesses but still supporting them. I haven't owned a Smart Parts gun, but I've owned various Smart Parts parts over the years- I've thought the quality was right up there with most everything else in the industry. I'm also certainly not an SP evangelist, BUT, smart parts is doing a lot of things as a company that are good for the sportstuff that nice looking, nice working, reasonably priced products. PLUS, they advertise- a lot and with really nice ads... lots of PB ads still look they were pasted together by a 10 year old who learned how to run a filter in Photoshop. SP is cultivating a good image - and for better or worse, image counts for a lot.

can't we just get over the "smart Parts sucks" thing? maybe into something productive like what they can do to improve their products or what other companies could do to compette? buy what you like.

[Lohman446]

i just found it sorta funny that you advocated ions and shockers before and now started a thread about how many problems their products have. but forget it, it doesnt matter.

I understand the irony in it :D . I still think they are good products. Supporting a company does not mean I have to bury my head in the sand to there shortcomings. yes they have problems, but after I balance the pros and cons... I still find there products most suited to my wants.

[SlartyBartFast]

Yeh... because there is absolutely zero advantage to a lower operating pressure.. shooting lower into the tank for instance :rolleyes: .

Well, DUH. :tard:

Sure if you can shoot lower into the tank with the same performance, then great. But lower operating pressure or shooting "lower into the tank" is not a performance indicator.

Sustainable FPS, BPS, and useable shots are performance indicators.

If you gave ME a marker that required an even higher input pressure than a mag but could shoot a whole case on one fill, I'd buy it. But the majority of unthinking paintballers would complain about the "unused air". :rolleyes:

[Lohman446]

If you gave ME a marker that required an even higher input pressure than a mag but could shoot a whole case on one fill, I'd buy it. But the majority of unthinking paintballers would complain about the "unused air". :rolleyes:

At that point many people would, as you pointed out. I would take the increase in efficiency, assuming we were talking being able to shoot down to 2000PSI. But its a hypothetical that I don't think is true. Currently we don't seem to have an uber efficient HP gun. If efficiency is roughly the same, then I would want the one that could shoot lower into the tank - all other things being equal (I realize there not)

Edit. PS, I'm going back to using the nice smileys :cheers: I think we can understand each other better that way

[shadowspar]

And they should fix it why? You keep buying the product don't you?


Jealous?

If you keep having problems with a company's stuff, if their quality control sucks and their customer service is worse, you should be voting with your feet. Or voting with your wallet, as it were. If a business screws you over, continuing to hand them your money doesn' t give them any incentive to improve.

[teufelhunden]

Should be, sure. But show me a viable alternative that offers the same performance at the same price. People are willing to deal with the nuances that come with SP's products because they pay $280 for an Ion that does all the same stuff as, say, a Cyborg or FS.

[Lohman446]

If you keep having problems with a company's stuff, if their quality control sucks and their customer service is worse, you should be voting with your feet. Or voting with your wallet, as it were. If a business screws you over, continuing to hand them your money doesn' t give them any incentive to improve.

because, after taking into consideration the pros and cons of SPs products (there QC and tech support being a con) there products still meet my wants for gear better than anyone elses. Do I wish it were elsewise... sure, but noone seems to meet my wants as well as they have or do at this point. This post should be giving a lot of other companies (well not this post but this theory) ideas on what to aim for. Give me what SP does (and Im talking the marketing, the glamour, the availability, the presence, in addition to the qualities of the gear itself) with better quality, better tech support, and competetive pricing and I will seriously consider those products.

[smilestyler]

because, after taking into consideration the pros and cons of SPs products (there QC and tech support being a con) there products still meet my wants for gear better than anyone elses. Do I wish it were elsewise... sure, but noone seems to meet my wants as well as they have or do at this point. This post should be giving a lot of other companies (well not this post but this theory) ideas on what to aim for. Give me what SP does (and Im talking the marketing, the glamour, the availability, the presence, in addition to the qualities of the gear itself) with better quality, better tech support, and competetive pricing and I will seriously consider those products.

If you've chosen SP knowing of the consequences, your gonna have to live with them. In all paintball companies that come to mind, none of them are able to pair Marketing/Hype/low pricing with Quality/Tech support/ethics. It seems as if you're going to have to choose.

[SlartyBartFast]

At that point many people would, as you pointed out. I would take the increase in efficiency, assuming we were talking being able to shoot down to 2000PSI. But its a hypothetical that I don't think is true. Currently we don't seem to have an uber efficient HP gun. If efficiency is roughly the same, then I would want the one that could shoot lower into the tank - all other things being equal (I realize there not)

At least we're talking the same idea.

As for HIGHER pressure giving efficiency, it was discussed here:
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=165635&highlight=hypermag

I think AGD gave up trying to educate the paintball playing public. But, I'd say that if someone could show that a very HP gun could work, they'd get the required converts...

Sorry to hijack the thread. :cheers:

[frop]

F#@$ smat parts BUY AGD
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:sigh:

I guess they don't teach reading in elementary school anymore. :tard:

[Lohman446]

:cuss: smat parts BUY AGD (edited for content, and to be within board rules

This is the point.

Ok, AGD I want to use one of your markers at the tournament on the first of next month.

It must be electro, it must have dual ball detents, it must have an eye system, it must have a decent trigger. It must have a good profile, be of reasonable weight, and reasonable efficiency. It has to use standard 9V batteries Ship it to... oh wait, there's a problem there....

[hitech]

It must be electro, it must have dual ball detents, it must have an eye system...

Why MUST you have those things? Isn't what you want a marker that you can shoot really fast and doesn't double feed? Why the specifics?

[SAW]

Why MUST you have those things? Isn't what you want a marker that you can shoot really fast and doesn't double feed? Why the specifics?


I ordered a Shocker because I had been having to constantly tune my LX - trying to be on the edge of performance with it... I wanted dual ball detents because of the Halo on top.

.

[mag88888]

i have TERRIBLe luck with ordering anything, just anything. itll be defected, need to be customized, leaks, completely broken, much more. your almost lucky IMO. i hate ordering! :mad:

[slade]

This is the point.

Ok, AGD I want to use one of your markers at the tournament on the first of next month.

It must be electro, it must have dual ball detents, it must have an eye system, it must have a decent trigger. It must have a good profile, be of reasonable weight, and reasonable efficiency. It has to use standard 9V batteries Ship it to... oh wait, there's a problem there....
im pretty sure a devilmag fits all of those (i know you already ordered one, im just saying) except for the dual ball detents. but why do you need dual detents? ive never had a single double feed with my halo except for when my detent came loose.


F#@$ smat parts BUY AGD
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
*sigh* i may hate smart parts but i also hate it when people act like that. seriously, try backing up what say instead of cursing, misspelling simple words, using oversized text and abusing smileys.

and although i hate SP and they have many quality control issues, AGD still isnt perfect. take last sunday, for instance. my LV10 spring snapped in half.

[Lohman446]

im pretty sure a devilmag fits all of those (i know you already ordered one, im just saying) except for the dual ball detents. but why do you need dual detents? ive never had a single double feed with my halo except for when my detent came loose.


My DevilMag has (will have) dual detents... Chris milled it out for me and added the second detent. The reason is one or pushing.. and a wild guess on my part. We know that balls do not rotate on one axis, but it seems to me that my mags with detents on the right all faded right on long shots - regardless of wind. I wonder if the ball rotates on that axis and causes that. I have no idea, but a second detent was relatively cheap. The problem with the DevilMag, is if I ordered on today what are the chances of having one by the first of the month. I expect I will be happy with it... but its a custom job... why didn't AGD make one that I could order stock that way, or close?

[Lohman446]

Why MUST you have those things? Isn't what you want a marker that you can shoot really fast and doesn't double feed? Why the specifics?

Your right in a way... but these are the specifics that I beleive will work without being convinced. As such, until I am shown otherwise, I will demand the specifics I know work.

[ICP]

This is the point.

Ok, AGD I want to use one of your markers at the tournament on the first of next month.

It must be electro, it must have dual ball detents, it must have an eye system, it must have a decent trigger. It must have a good profile, be of reasonable weight, and reasonable efficiency. It has to use standard 9V batteries Ship it to... oh wait, there's a problem there....

I completely understand what your saying, and it is clear that you are stating your opinion on what meets your need/wants.

But that question is a bit unfair. If you asked SP for a marker that they don't produce and told them you wanted it by the first of the month, you wouldn't get it from them either. I know what your trying to say, but the question by itself is an unfair comarison.

At least you buy what you want, and don't follow the crowd ( i think) :D