proable cause and cops.

[misfit]

a little background info, im 23 and ive with my bro (21) and my fired (21). we live in a college town, and we throw the occiosional party. in about 5 years the house has only been busted once, when a kid was asked to leave and he walked accross campus with a beer, and he was under age. so needless to say we dont let that happen anymore. two parties ago there was a cop scare so we threw everybody out. we didnt get busted but a cop came by and asked to talk to me. he said it is cool if we party just dont let it get out of hand, and dont send 150 poeple out of your front door and windows. well last night we had another party with only like 60 people no proplem we also bord up the windows and handle the noise, nobody can hear us off of our property anyway. there was a cop scare when like 2 cars parked in the fornt and back of our house but nothing happened. a girl who was here has a boyfried who was a cop on duty and he had to convince them not to bust us. he said that they had no prople cause, while the other one said that he could see people in the basement. i fairly certant that having people in the basement is not a crime.

now some questions i realize that it is ilegal to consume alachol under the age of 21 so dont hassle me about that. if the cops knock on the door can i just go outside and talk to them, even if they see people drinking when i open the door, they have no reason to assume that they are underage, do they? can i just not let them in, i know this would prob jsut piss them off, but im curious.there is not a whole lot going on in this town so they kinda have nothing better to do, we never cause any problems and dont get any complaints form neighbors, cause they are here.
ps i have nothing aginst cops

[Creative Mayhem]

Yo Misfit! What's up man! Were you drunk when you posted this? Damn man :cheers: :clap:

I don't know for sure, but they can't just bust you, they do need probable cause. However, they do need proof as well, they can't prove anything without coming in and ID'ng everyone there, and they can't come in unless you let them. I think it was basically just a scare tactic cause your house has been marked as a party house. It's basically a way for them to tone it down without the paperwork or hassle.

[Glickman]

i didnt think there was any state that will allow entry of police without permission with proable cause of underage drinking. i thought i just read something about it trying to be initated in some county as the first trial.

i believe the following are the only reasons they can enter your home:

-Your permission
-Search or Arrest warrent
-Emergencies
+If someone enters your home whos just commited an offense
+ If they believe someone is about to harm someone else

[WicKeD_WaYz]

bro they cant just come in. Not many people understand this and everyone who throws parties needs a headcheck these days. The cops cant just bust in! They will though if you give them an inch. Tape those windows man, turn out the lights, and be quiet. When I throw parties and the cops come, your either inside my house, quiet, or off my property. Around here we call it lockdown. When we see a cop, everyone just parties quieter. You turn out all the lights, make out with a chick, whatever. Meanwhile I go outside, being 18 im responsible for what goes on at my house. This is important too, when you go outside, dont go out the front door. If they look in and see a minor drinking thats probable cause and they will most likely get in despite your efforts to stop them. I go out the back and jump the side gate,(get your buddies inside and out of your backyard, this is another way they come in). Just go up to the cop and tell them you have a few friends over, nobody under 21 is aloud to drink in your house, if anyone under 21 is caught drinking outside, you had nothing to do with it. And tell them politely that under no circumstances are they allowed to come in your house, or backyard. Ask if the neighbors are complaingin about the noise and there reason for being there. If theres a noise problem, fix it. You have to kind of cooperate with cops to throw a party that lasts all night. Dont let any drunk guys throw anything at them or yell anything. They cant just come in your house but they will make it hell for you. Like ive had em sit right off my property and try to bust every underage drinker who leaves(which is usually everyone in the house).

Also get someone you trust on that front door and side gate or w/e. Dont let some drunk kid or scared girl just open the door to the cops, because they can walk right in if anyone opens the door, and once they are in they wont leave. I dunno ive sat in my house with 40 people and locked everything up except one window by my door and the cops stood on my porch for hours banging for like 3 hours. We just laughed at them and taunted em through the window and what not, we were dumb but we wanted to see what would happen. They honestly left after 3 hours and parked down the street. They left me this really threatening note from the Sheriifs dept. though. It was kind of funny. If your down for just waiting it out you can just ignore them, but they'll never go away unless you talk to them politely. Dont give in though cops will BS you all day long so that you let them in. Just stay strong on that no, and after a little while tell them unless your under arrest, your going back inside and for them to leave your property.

Its hard dealin with the cops man but if you throw parties enough eventually you can come to a mutual agreement with them. Like cops dont really try to bust my parties anymore but at the same time I dont let them get out of hand like they used to.

O yea and just a side note. A couple weeks ago I was partying at my best friends house and her house got straight mobbed through the back door in a gang hit and they jumped this one guy REAL bad and stabbed him bad. I couldnt even break it up and I was doing everything I could cuz I know both sides. Anyways thats a whole different story but 10 minutes later the cops basically busted in the front door with this big metal thing. I told em to get the :cuss: out and they said they could do whatever they wanted because it was an emergency/ dangerous situation or some crap. They didnt really bust anyone just checked out the wreckage from the fight and ended the party a little early. So lesson learned, try not to let any fights go down or the cops will ruin your night.

[cockerkiller68]

Threads like this make me ashamed to be in here.

[Lohman446]

now some questions i realize that it is ilegal to consume alachol under the age of 21 so dont hassle me about that. if the cops knock on the door can i just go outside and talk to them, even if they see people drinking when i open the door, they have no reason to assume that they are underage, do they?

If a reasonable person would beleive said drinkers were under 21 the police at that point they have probable cause to enter and begin detaining people.

[misfit]

If a reasonable person would beleive said drinkers were under 21 the police at that point they have probable cause to enter and begin detaining people.
first off sorry about my grammer, i suck at the english language (and spelling just in case)
the house is usually on lockdown regardless of the rediculous numbers we usually posess, and nobody messes with the cops. i wonder how could they legitimatley assume that people are underage. some people look young, some old but it is just a college croud you know, not like highschoolers or anything. what about them entering our property in general. like if i park my truck at the bottom of the driveway. they cant get their cars up, so they would have to walk up, and if nobody is outside and the noise is controlled can they just come up for the sake of hasseling me. last time when all those people ran, he told me that he didnt even know we were having a party and he turned his spot light on to check out a parked car in the street behind our house that he was sitting on. thats when he saw all those people acting like track stars.

ps what's up mayhem, i live right near the iao now
so if you check the map, you might guess that the school in question is slippery rock
pps sorry for my ramblimatic style of writing

maybe building a bar/stage with taps wanst the best idea, our record is 8 girls dancing on it

[Lohman446]

Reasonable person standard is BS... basically it means unless you have a very good, very agressive attorney the police officer acted reasonably. It sucks, but its how it is. They can come up to your door, and observe when you open it, acting accordingly. Is it fair? No. Should it be legal? Your call. Can it happen? oh yes.

[SlartyBartFast]

Threads like this make me ashamed to be in here.

QFT

The real question seems to be the usual pathetic: “I know I’m doing something illegal, but I’m an anti-social dweeb that can’t be bothered doing it above board. How do I avoid getting caught?”

Come-on guys. How difficult is it to have a decent party without having to hassle the cops?

Yup, you heard me right. YOU are the ones causing the hassle. Keep the noise down, be pleasant with the neighbors so they don’t complain, don’t allow underage drinkers.

You’re Americans, so you should have a concept of personal rights and freedoms, and you’re certainly selfish enough to have a blessed love for your own personal rights (not calling Americans selfish, I’m calling neighbours-be-damned “I have the right to party” idiots selfish). Well, guess what? Your neighbours have as much right to expect their rights to be protected as you can expect yours not to be “invaded/hassled”. One of the most basic rules of the protection of rights is that your rights end when they encroach on the rights of others.

As soon as you start acting suspicious the police have “probable cause”. I mean how stupid do you think the cops are? Blacked out windows, getting all “I know my rights”, being evasive, don’t you think that the cops very quickly go from being laid-back and responding to a run-of-the-mill noise or disturbance complaint to suspecting something far more sinister?

And by the way, “probable cause” would include violations of fire code concerning the number of people in a building or illegally blocking windows or doors.

And complaining because the cops bust your party when there’s a stabbing? Damn, that’s got to be the most retarded excuse for cop-hating and anti-social behaviour I’ve ever heard. WTF you going to want/expect if you’re lying on the floor bleeding? The cops are paid to protect life and property. That means they’re paid to protect your sorry back-end even if you’re stupid enough to be involved in parties that attract gang attacks.

Want to avoid getting in trouble? Stay within the law, keep the noise down, when the cops arrive, everyone just carry on partying while someone in charge talks nicely to them. If it’s a noise complaint, tell them you’ll calm it down, and do it.

Or are all you guys just alcoholic and desperate for drunk underage women?

[SlartyBartFast]

Reasonable person standard is BS... basically it means unless you have a very good, very agressive attorney the police officer acted reasonably. It sucks, but its how it is. They can come up to your door, and observe when you open it, acting accordingly. Is it fair? No. Should it be legal? Your call. Can it happen? oh yes.

Good god man. So, the cops shouldn't enforce the law when they see/hear it being broken?

What's not fair? Dumb enough to have underage drinkers, dumb enough to make too much noise = dumb enough to get caught in my book. Seems pretty fair.

If you don't want stuff in plain sight, get a vestibule door installed.

[Lohman446]

Good god man. So, the cops shouldn't enforce the law when they see/hear it being broken?

What's not fair? Dumb enough to have underage drinkers, dumb enough to make too much noise = dumb enough to get caught in my book. Seems pretty fair.

If you don't want stuff in plain sight, get a vestibule door installed.

Not what I said. Its just the reasonable standard that a police officer is held to is... well nearly infallible. I have no sympathy for him, though I do see his point of view... I just don't agree with it. What I am telling him is he does not have the legal ability to stop, or the legal resources to argue it if the police enter because they had reasonable suspicion of underage drinking,

In review, I did mention I did not think police looking in the door and searching problems was unfair... let me explain.

As to the not fair. This is what I mean. If you open your door to talk to them and only then can they observe illegal behavior then have right to enter... I think its a touch unfair. If it is observable from outside - fire code, etc as you have stated.. all bets are off. I think the police looking in, to hunt problems, is a touch unfair. If it doesn't effect your neighbors, and it does not present imminent danger (ok, maybe underage drinking does, but you know what I mean) then what is the harm? Ethical hedonism. I don't care what consenting adults do, as long as it does not harm any non-participants.

[SlartyBartFast]

Not what I said. Its just the reasonable standard that a police officer is held to is... well nearly infallible. I have no sympathy for him, though I do see his point of view... I just don't agree with it.

Then I guess we share a point of view. But I don't agree with his. :cheers:

They "occasionally" have parties, but they've installed a bar with taps... :rolleyes:


As to the not fair. This is what I mean. If you open your door to talk to them and only then can they observe illegal behavior then have right to enter... I think its a touch unfair. If it is observable from outside - fire code, etc as you have stated.. all bets are off. I think the police looking in, to hunt problems, is a touch unfair.

No it isn't. They have to have a reason to be knocking at your door in the first place. Either that reason is something visible/observable from the outside, or a neighbour complained.

The "ethical hedonism" bit only works when all participants are consenting adults of the age of majority for the activity in question.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

QFT

The real question seems to be the usual pathetic: “I know I’m doing something illegal, but I’m an anti-social dweeb that can’t be bothered doing it above board. How do I avoid getting caught?”

Come-on guys. How difficult is it to have a decent party without having to hassle the cops?

Yup, you heard me right. YOU are the ones causing the hassle. Keep the noise down, be pleasant with the neighbors so they don’t complain, don’t allow underage drinkers.

You’re Americans, so you should have a concept of personal rights and freedoms, and you’re certainly selfish enough to have a blessed love for your own personal rights (not calling Americans selfish, I’m calling neighbours-be-damned “I have the right to party” idiots selfish). Well, guess what? Your neighbours have as much right to expect their rights to be protected as you can expect yours not to be “invaded/hassled”. One of the most basic rules of the protection of rights is that your rights end when they encroach on the rights of others.

As soon as you start acting suspicious the police have “probable cause”. I mean how stupid do you think the cops are? Blacked out windows, getting all “I know my rights”, being evasive, don’t you think that the cops very quickly go from being laid-back and responding to a run-of-the-mill noise or disturbance complaint to suspecting something far more sinister?

And by the way, “probable cause” would include violations of fire code concerning the number of people in a building or illegally blocking windows or doors.

And complaining because the cops bust your party when there’s a stabbing? Damn, that’s got to be the most retarded excuse for cop-hating and anti-social behaviour I’ve ever heard. WTF you going to want/expect if you’re lying on the floor bleeding? The cops are paid to protect life and property. That means they’re paid to protect your sorry back-end even if you’re stupid enough to be involved in parties that attract gang attacks.

Want to avoid getting in trouble? Stay within the law, keep the noise down, when the cops arrive, everyone just carry on partying while someone in charge talks nicely to them. If it’s a noise complaint, tell them you’ll calm it down, and do it.

Or are all you guys just alcoholic and desperate for drunk underage women?

You must now have gotten invited to many parties in your day. Thats a bunch of crap we have every right to party. I never said once that we try to hassle cops or neighbors. My neighbors are all cool and can come party with me if they want but if they came to my house and told me to keep it down I would. Like I said I dont let my parties get out of control, but Im still allowed to have them, as is anyone else who wants one.

And about the fight with the stabbing and cops breaking it up. Do I dislike cops? For the most part. Do I respect them as long as they respect me? You bet. I wasnt saying I hate cops. I was pointing out that they can use violence as an excuse to come in. I didnt say they shouldnt be allowed to because that is there job and all. I was just pointing out that they can and will break into your house in a worst case scenario, since thats what the thread is about, keeping cops out of your parties.

And something else I absolutely hate. Everyone who turns 21 all of a sudden tries to get all mature and knocks underage drinking. Its safe to say that most people who attended college also drank underage. Im sick of this hypocritical bull******. Just because your legally allowed to drink now doesnt mean you didnt do it when you were in high school so stop trying to knock underage kids who can drink responsibly.

“I know I’m doing something illegal, but I’m an anti-social dweeb that can’t be bothered doing it above board. How do I avoid getting caught?”

Wait...your calling guys who like to party and have a good time anti social? LOL Before I go any further Ide love to hear your definition of anti social.

[Lohman446]

The "ethical hedonism" bit only works when all participants are consenting adults of the age of majority for the activity in question.

I agree that they likely did not knock just for fun. Ok, I'll give you that. And well I beleive that you should obey the law I do understand the issues that some people have with having the legal responsibilities of an adult at 18, which can even go as far as to be drafted to military service, without having all the rights until you are 21. I also understand the reasoning for why this is...

[misfit]

Stay within the law, keep the noise down, when the cops arrive, everyone just carry on partying while someone in charge talks nicely to them. If it’s a noise complaint, tell them you’ll calm it down, and do it.
this is my thoughts exactally, im not trying to start any trouble, and we dont get complaints about noise because our neighbors are here, and we partrol the house for noise checks and keep people off of the porch. we work hard to keep things plesent for everybody envolved, us the guests, the town, the cops. im not trying to fight for my right to party or anything, i just want to know the letter of the law so to speek, so i know where i stand and where to draw the line on things.

They have to have a reason to be knocking at your door in the first place. Either that reason is something visible/observable from the outside, or a neighbour complained this is what im talking about.
even if we are all 21, which is often the case, i would assume if they came to try to "bust" us all they would do is check id's and leave. if there is no noise complaint then what right do they have to do that. im not being a smart *** im just curious. can they just invent a noise complant. ive heard of that happening before, i would think that a noise complaint is an annomous thing, but if they say somthing like your neighbors complained, and i say that my neighbors are here...

as far as underage goes i think there is a bit of a difference between 18 and 20, the ones here are in the upper range of that

[SlartyBartFast]

Wait...your calling guys who like to party and have a good time anti social? LOL Before I go any further Ide love to hear your definition of anti social.

"Social" is larger than your small group of friends and assorted hangers-on.

"Social" as in "society". Getting along with your neighbours and living a good citizen. That kind of thing. :rolleyes: You may have the right to socialise with your friends, your neighbours have the right to a quiet night.

And before you get anymore personal, I got invited to plenty of parties. And it's got nothing to do with being hypocritical about underage drinking.

But, if you're going to drink underage, get a grip and do it responsibly. Otherwise be prepared to face the concequences and don't bellyache if you get caught.

So, maybe big blow-out prarties that are liekly to attract the attention of the police aren't the best place to get involved in illegal activity.

For the record, I was in bars at 16 (but then again "legal" drinking age is 18 here).


I was pointing out that they can use violence as an excuse to come in.

At that point, it ain't no excuse and I doubt anyone is seriously under the misconception that the police wouldn't breakdown the door if there was reported vilence. It's the reason the police exist in the first place. Only you seemed to be deluded enough to think that after a report of violence the police would take your word that all is well and leave the party alone.


Just because your legally allowed to drink now doesnt mean you didnt do it when you were in high school so stop trying to knock underage kids who can drink responsibly.

I'm not knocking anyone who can act responsibly. I'm knocking the idiots who can't/don't act responsibly, refuse to live up to their responsibilities or limit their acts to manageable levels, overreact/panic when the cops show up, then ***** about the cops hassling them afterwards.

If you're going to break the law (underage drinking), best that you do it only with close friends you trust, and you do it as discretely as possible.

[Hasty8]

bro they cant just come in. Not many people understand this and everyone who throws parties needs a headcheck these days. The cops cant just bust in! They will though if you give them an inch. Tape those windows man, turn out the lights, and be quiet. When I throw parties and the cops come, your either inside my house, quiet, or off my property. Around here we call it lockdown. When we see a cop, everyone just parties quieter. You turn out all the lights, make out with a chick, whatever. Meanwhile I go outside, being 18 im responsible for what goes on at my house. This is important too, when you go outside, dont go out the front door. If they look in and see a minor drinking thats probable cause and they will most likely get in despite your efforts to stop them. I go out the back and jump the side gate,(get your buddies inside and out of your backyard, this is another way they come in). Just go up to the cop and tell them you have a few friends over, nobody under 21 is aloud to drink in your house, if anyone under 21 is caught drinking outside, you had nothing to do with it. And tell them politely that under no circumstances are they allowed to come in your house, or backyard. Ask if the neighbors are complaingin about the noise and there reason for being there. If theres a noise problem, fix it. You have to kind of cooperate with cops to throw a party that lasts all night. Dont let any drunk guys throw anything at them or yell anything. They cant just come in your house but they will make it hell for you. Like ive had em sit right off my property and try to bust every underage drinker who leaves(which is usually everyone in the house).

Also get someone you trust on that front door and side gate or w/e. Dont let some drunk kid or scared girl just open the door to the cops, because they can walk right in if anyone opens the door, and once they are in they wont leave. I dunno ive sat in my house with 40 people and locked everything up except one window by my door and the cops stood on my porch for hours banging for like 3 hours. We just laughed at them and taunted em through the window and what not, we were dumb but we wanted to see what would happen. They honestly left after 3 hours and parked down the street. They left me this really threatening note from the Sheriifs dept. though. It was kind of funny. If your down for just waiting it out you can just ignore them, but they'll never go away unless you talk to them politely. Dont give in though cops will BS you all day long so that you let them in. Just stay strong on that no, and after a little while tell them unless your under arrest, your going back inside and for them to leave your property.

Its hard dealin with the cops man but if you throw parties enough eventually you can come to a mutual agreement with them. Like cops dont really try to bust my parties anymore but at the same time I dont let them get out of hand like they used to.

O yea and just a side note. A couple weeks ago I was partying at my best friends house and her house got straight mobbed through the back door in a gang hit and they jumped this one guy REAL bad and stabbed him bad. I couldnt even break it up and I was doing everything I could cuz I know both sides. Anyways thats a whole different story but 10 minutes later the cops basically busted in the front door with this big metal thing. I told em to get the :cuss: out and they said they could do whatever they wanted because it was an emergency/ dangerous situation or some crap. They didnt really bust anyone just checked out the wreckage from the fight and ended the party a little early. So lesson learned, try not to let any fights go down or the cops will ruin your night.

This is so incredibly wrong it's scary.

The police have every right to enter so long as they can show they have probable cause. This is similar to a police officer commandeering a privately owned vehicle. Typically, no fault will be found on the officer if they can show that there was a dire need for the vehicle. OF course, any damage incurred is an entirely different manner.

Now, I will say that laws can be different in some places and maybe that is the law in your area. More accurately, it sounds to me like the cops are just tired of dealing with a bunch of drunken, idiotic teenagers. I am highly doubtful that cops stood on your door for 3 hours with you taunting them through the window. I'm more willing to believe that it was closer to 15 minutes with you hissing to your drunk friends to shut up.

And it doesn't matter if someone under 21 is caught outside drinking. If it's on your property it's your responsiblity. Agian, laws in different areas are different but here in NY, if I own a pool my home insurance skyrockets. Makes no difference of the pool is surround by a 15 foot anti-scaling fence with guard towers, search lights and armed guards. My insurance goes ballistic.

If cops knock on your door and hear a blood curdling scream you can damn well bet your keister they are coming in guns drawn. Hell, if they are passing by the house and hear that they are coming in.

If cops get calls from neighbors saying that there is a bunch of drunken kids milling about your house and they see this you can likewise bet that they are coming in.

Again, laws are different in different areas but it's a good rule of thumb that if they have a reasonable suspicion they can come in. How do you know if they might have reasonable suspicion? If you see the cops and say "Oh $*!$" then they have probable cause.

Again, the reasonable suspicion must be supported in court.

[SlartyBartFast]

this is my thoughts exactally, im not trying to start any trouble, and we dont get complaints about noise because our neighbors are here, and we partrol the house for noise checks and keep people off of the porch. we work hard to keep things plesent for everybody envolved, us the guests, the town, the cops. im not trying to fight for my right to party or anything, i just want to know the letter of the law so to speek, so i know where i stand and where to draw the line on things.

:cool:

Sounds like you're on the level then. If that's the case, just do as the cops ask.

Really, there's nothing you can do to stop them if they want to get you. But, if you're polite and cooperate you'll have better grounds after the fact if you need to complain.

The only way to deal with any kind of police harrasement is do EXACTLY as they say and complain to their superiors and the civilian complaints board the next day. They are the ones with ALL the power when they show up at your door.

:cheers:

Although I find it hilarious discussing 18 as underaged. :rofl:

But then again, I've seen plenty hoards of loud American losers patrolling St-Catherines street in Montreal clearly demonstrating why they shouldn't be allowed to drink at 18.

[misfit]

when i was a freshmen at drexel i had a frend who went to cananda got loaded, mouthed off to a cop. he took him to the border and deported him. just dropped his but back in the u.s.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

This is so incredibly wrong it's scary.

The police have every right to enter so long as they can show they have probable cause. This is similar to a police officer commandeering a privately owned vehicle. Typically, no fault will be found on the officer if they can show that there was a dire need for the vehicle. OF course, any damage incurred is an entirely different manner.

Now, I will say that laws can be different in some places and maybe that is the law in your area. More accurately, it sounds to me like the cops are just tired of dealing with a bunch of drunken, idiotic teenagers. I am highly doubtful that cops stood on your door for 3 hours with you taunting them through the window. I'm more willing to believe that it was closer to 15 minutes with you hissing to your drunk friends to shut up.

And it doesn't matter if someone under 21 is caught outside drinking. If it's on your property it's your responsiblity. Agian, laws in different areas are different but here in NY, if I own a pool my home insurance skyrockets. Makes no difference of the pool is surround by a 15 foot anti-scaling fence with guard towers, search lights and armed guards. My insurance goes ballistic.

If cops knock on your door and hear a blood curdling scream you can damn well bet your keister they are coming in guns drawn. Hell, if they are passing by the house and hear that they are coming in.

If cops get calls from neighbors saying that there is a bunch of drunken kids milling about your house and they see this you can likewise bet that they are coming in.

Again, laws are different in different areas but it's a good rule of thumb that if they have a reasonable suspicion they can come in. How do you know if they might have reasonable suspicion? If you see the cops and say "Oh $*!$" then they have probable cause.

Again, the reasonable suspicion must be supported in court.

Dude, I dont know all the laws or anything, but I do throw parties, and I do go to parties. And from personal experience if you dont let them in, they will not or can not come in. Maybe they technically can break down your door if they see a obvious minor with a beer can, but for the most part they wont. Actually ive never seen them just bust in for anything short of violence and one time a chick called for help clearing out her house, and when they got there, she was nowhere to be found so they came on in.

Other than that it will take a drunken idiot opening the door or an open side gate for them to just walk through(they will go through any open door). But mostly I see the front door thing happen. Someone comes to the party, knocks, whoever is standing by the door lets them in right, someone else knocks, whoever is standing by the door opens it and just like that 2 cops are inside.

Like you said, its different in every area, and in my area, cops can be kept out if you know what to do.


"I am highly doubtful that cops stood on your door for 3 hours with you taunting them through the window. I'm more willing to believe that it was closer to 15 minutes with you hissing to your drunk friends to shut up."

Honestly man, I wouldnt make up stories to make my user name sound cooler. I dont really care that much I have enough things going for me that im not trying to sound "cool" or anything on the net, just sharing info about cops comming into houses with the starter of the thread because he asked for it so I gave my experiences. It doesnt bother me if you believe it or not really, because again I have no reason to convince you. Im just trying to get a point across that cops use all these methods for intimidation and "You better let us in, OR ELSE" But when it comes down to it, if you dont open the door, they most likely arent going to break it down. Unless of course something else is going on which I already adressed earlier.

party on

[fire1811]

if a cop wants in he will come in.
there is ALWAYS something he can use against you.
there are so many things that justify probable cause you can cover them all. If he is a good cop your done.

I love when people get mad because they were caught breaking the law :tard:

[warpspyder]

Out of curiosity are there fire codes that limit how many people can be in a building/house? Not really too familiar with those, but just another thought.

[fire1811]

Out of curiosity are there fire codes that limit how many people can be in a building/house? Not really too familiar with those, but just another thought.

most cities/towns have codes for buildings. Houses usually do not. Not saying they dont it would be up to the local Fire Department or building inspector/code enforcer.

[warpspyder]

That's what I thought, but as I said I don't really know much about those other than the fact that they affect buildings. Thanks for clearing that up. :hail: :clap:

[Jakedubbleya]

Ive come to understand probable cause as:

They hear screaming so they bust in. They save the lass or whatever.

Now they ALSO notice within the house, by chance, a marijuana plant and a couple of 12 year olds shooting up on acid.

(Now 12 year olds shooting up on acid may be an "emergency" and cancel this out but its just a zaney example.)

They cannot hold you for the merijuana because that was not the "probable cause" for which they entered upon your property.

Neither can they charge the psycadelic gradeschoolers with consumption, same reason.

So if a cop busts in because of "fire code violation" or some b.s. he does not have the legal ability to charge your friends with drinking tickets. They are not admissable in court and all your friends should refuse to sign the tickets.

Same deal with a warrant, if they get a warrant looking for illegal drugs and find youve got say illegal weapons, they cant hold you for them.

But this is just what ive been told, if anybody knows the facts on this id like to hear the real deal.


tactic:
Put up a private property/no trespassing sign on the outside of your property (if you have a house with a big lawn/frathouse), then if the cops give you a bs excuse (like the example you gave, said your neighbors were complaining but your neighbors were in fact at the party) you can charge them for trespassing(i think), or at least threaten them which will give you a lot of leeway. They wont just walk up to your house anymore to see whats going on.

underage consumption of alchohol tickets are no fun in utah, 600$-800$ and 20 hrs of comm. service, we do all we can lol. I tend to keep to the smaller parties myself tho.
edit: also cops hate showing up for court on small things like drinking tickets, use that to ur advantage (mix in with much politeness).
--------------------------------

btw mad max is the man.

[Lohman446]

Ive come to understand probable cause as:

They hear screaming so they bust in. They save the lass or whatever.

Now they ALSO notice within the house, by chance, a marijuana plant and a couple of 12 year olds shooting up on acid.

(Now 12 year olds shooting up on acid may be an "emergency" and cancel this out but its just a zaney example.)

They cannot hold you for the merijuana because that was not the "probable cause" for which they entered upon your property.

Neither can they charge the psycadelic gradeschoolers with consumption, same reason.

So if a cop busts in because of "fire code violation" or some b.s. he does not have the legal ability to charge your friends with drinking tickets. They are not admissable in court and all your friends should refuse to sign the tickets.

Same deal with a warrant, if they get a warrant looking for illegal drugs and find youve got say illegal weapons, they cant hold you for them.

But this is just what ive been told, if anybody knows the facts on this id like to hear the real deal.



:rofl: :rofl: Thats great theory.. totally wrong but great theory. As long as they legally entered the premises they can arrest you, charge you with, and use evidence obtained against you on that entrance that related to any criminal activity. Other than being totally wrong, it sounds like something some stoner came up with, its pretty good. I do credit you wtih the best laugh of the day, and you did have a good disclaimer. So other than being totally wrong, its all good.

[Muzikman]

Misfit! Your at the Rock now? My cousin goes to school there...If ya happen to run into her, just keep her off the bars/tables:)

The big thing about Slippery Rock is that up until a few years ago it was a dry town. Now that it no longer is there are ALOT more parties and the police like to crack down more. When I was in HS and just out of HS I had a lot of friends that went to SRU and it was a very quiet campus.

So when you going to invite me up?:)

[misfit]

next party ill let you know. ask her if she has ever been to a party at the yellow house. i keep hearing stories about how it used to be a big party school a bunch of years ago, and that the dumpsters were on fire like every night.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Ive come to understand probable cause as:

They hear screaming so they bust in. They save the lass or whatever.

Now they ALSO notice within the house, by chance, a marijuana plant and a couple of 12 year olds shooting up on acid.

(Now 12 year olds shooting up on acid may be an "emergency" and cancel this out but its just a zaney example.)

They cannot hold you for the merijuana because that was not the "probable cause" for which they entered upon your property.

Neither can they charge the psycadelic gradeschoolers with consumption, same reason.

So if a cop busts in because of "fire code violation" or some b.s. he does not have the legal ability to charge your friends with drinking tickets. They are not admissable in court and all your friends should refuse to sign the tickets.

Same deal with a warrant, if they get a warrant looking for illegal drugs and find youve got say illegal weapons, they cant hold you for them.

But this is just what ive been told, if anybody knows the facts on this id like to hear the real deal.


tactic:
Put up a private property/no trespassing sign on the outside of your property (if you have a house with a big lawn/frathouse), then if the cops give you a bs excuse (like the example you gave, said your neighbors were complaining but your neighbors were in fact at the party) you can charge them for trespassing(i think), or at least threaten them which will give you a lot of leeway. They wont just walk up to your house anymore to see whats going on.

underage consumption of alchohol tickets are no fun in utah, 600$-800$ and 20 hrs of comm. service, we do all we can lol. I tend to keep to the smaller parties myself tho.
edit: also cops hate showing up for court on small things like drinking tickets, use that to ur advantage (mix in with much politeness).
--------------------------------

btw mad max is the man.

I dont think thats entirely right if a house is treated anything like a car, which in most circumstances it is. If a cop searches your car because you got pulled over.(Again the cops cant search this without probable cause unless you let them) He can bust you for ANYTHING and everything in it. I would bet its the same with a house.

I think what your touching on though is illegally obtained evidence. Like the OJ case for example. If they come in your house and your lawyer can prove they shouldnt have, then anything they find is thrown out. So in theory yea if a cop just walks in your house for no reason and sees that your growing weed, I dont know, come to think on it you might still get rolled. Im just rambling now ill stop.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

and that the dumpsters were on fire like every night.

Thats when you know it was a really good party. :)

[Automaggin2]

West Bye God Virginia has some crazy laws. Cops cant touch you or say anything to you as long as your not on the townships property, IE streets or sidewalks. I can stand an inch from the sidewalk with a beer in my hand and a blunt and cops cant do crap. Cops cannot arrest people on someones property here. I love it.


At home, if a cop sees more then the average number of cars infront of a house, they get suspicious and stand ground for awhile. We can be completly silent but cops will notice a lot of cars in a neighberhood and snoop around.


There are some cool cops in my town. If there is a complaint, sometimes they will show up and just say keep it down and no one is driving. I respect that, but then there are cops that will do anything to arrest someone, including illegally entering a house. It has been done before, without probable cause. One time a buddy of mine said "talk to my lawyer", gave the cop a business card, and the cop just walked away and didn't say a word. If a cop enters your house, illegally or legally, and you mention the word lawyer, it usually scares them.

[Lohman446]

You guys... in seriousness one of the things you need to consider strongly are civil penalties should something go wrong associated with what you are doing.

[PyRo]

I think what your touching on though is illegally obtained evidence. Like the OJ case for example. If they come in your house and your lawyer can prove they shouldnt have, then anything they find is thrown out. So in theory yea if a cop just walks in your house for no reason and sees that your growing weed, I dont know, come to think on it you might still get rolled. Im just rambling now ill stop.

Basically if the cops want to come in they're going to find somthing to use as probable cause no matter how carefull you are. What are you going to do about it? You're going to spend thousands on a lawyer to get out of it or you're going to pay a few hundred dollars in fines or some other slap on the wrist.

[SlipknotX556]

Misfit, I hope you have more pics then that teaser one you posted. :)

[Jakedubbleya]

:rofl: :rofl: Thats great theory.. totally wrong but great theory. As long as they legally entered the premises they can arrest you, charge you with, and use evidence obtained against you on that entrance that related to any criminal activity. Other than being totally wrong, it sounds like something some stoner came up with, its pretty good. I do credit you wtih the best laugh of the day, and you did have a good disclaimer. So other than being totally wrong, its all good.

Yeah ur prolly right that makes more sense.

Sorta put a damper on my partying tho.

[SlartyBartFast]

Ive come to understand probable cause as:

And you're completely wrong. :rofl:

Once they enter, they can use anything in plain sight against you.

The only limit on them is they can't search the house for anything other than the reason that they entered. But, anything they come across while searching for their "primary" target can be used to obtain a warrant to search for anyting/everything else.

[Steelrat]

Ive come to understand probable cause as:

They hear screaming so they bust in. They save the lass or whatever.

Now they ALSO notice within the house, by chance, a marijuana plant and a couple of 12 year olds shooting up on acid.

(Now 12 year olds shooting up on acid may be an "emergency" and cancel this out but its just a zaney example.)

They cannot hold you for the merijuana because that was not the "probable cause" for which they entered upon your property.

Neither can they charge the psycadelic gradeschoolers with consumption, same reason.

So if a cop busts in because of "fire code violation" or some b.s. he does not have the legal ability to charge your friends with drinking tickets. They are not admissable in court and all your friends should refuse to sign the tickets.

Same deal with a warrant, if they get a warrant looking for illegal drugs and find youve got say illegal weapons, they cant hold you for them.

But this is just what ive been told, if anybody knows the facts on this id like to hear the real deal.


tactic:
Put up a private property/no trespassing sign on the outside of your property (if you have a house with a big lawn/frathouse), then if the cops give you a bs excuse (like the example you gave, said your neighbors were complaining but your neighbors were in fact at the party) you can charge them for trespassing(i think), or at least threaten them which will give you a lot of leeway. They wont just walk up to your house anymore to see whats going on.

underage consumption of alchohol tickets are no fun in utah, 600$-800$ and 20 hrs of comm. service, we do all we can lol. I tend to keep to the smaller parties myself tho.
edit: also cops hate showing up for court on small things like drinking tickets, use that to ur advantage (mix in with much politeness).
--------------------------------

btw mad max is the man.

Wrong, but you can go on believing that if you want.

Why is it that people feel the need to treat the police as the enemy? Police officers are willing to die to defend you and your loved ones, yet because they enforce laws you don't agree with they are the bad guys? Society as a whole is responsible for the laws, the police just enforce them. You don't have to agree with them, but you do have to obey them or face the consequences.

[PyRo]

Wrong, but you can go on believing that if you want.

Why is it that people feel the need to treat the police as the enemy? Police officers are willing to die to defend you and your loved ones, yet because they enforce laws you don't agree with they are the bad guys? Society as a whole is responsible for the laws, the police just enforce them. You don't have to agree with them, but you do have to obey them or face the consequences.
It's not that they are treated as the enemy it's that power has to be kept in check.

[fire1811]

how is getting angry that they bust an underage drinking party keeping them in check?

[PyRo]

how is getting angry that they bust an underage drinking party keeping them in check?
Getting angry that they bust underage drinking is not what I ment. I ment somthing like not letting them into your house because you don't have to. Or getting angry when they start walking right through the front door without proper probable clause because they know you're not going to fight it in court and even if you did the judge would side with the local police over a college student. You're only shot at winning would be managing to get a change in venue (good luck and even better luck affording it) or apealing it to a higher court which would get very expensive and most likely no apeals court is going to want to hear it.

[Steelrat]

I don't like police abuses at all, but the subject of this thread is essentially how to keep police from discoving underage drinking at a party.

[Lohman446]

I don't like police abuses at all, but the subject of this thread is essentially how to keep police from discoving underage drinking at a party.

And the answer is, what's not there, can't be discovered :D

[Jakedubbleya]

Wrong, but you can go on believing that if you want.

Why is it that people feel the need to treat the police as the enemy? Police officers are willing to die to defend you and your loved ones, yet because they enforce laws you don't agree with they are the bad guys? Society as a whole is responsible for the laws, the police just enforce them. You don't have to agree with them, but you do have to obey them or face the consequences.

i already admitted i was wrong bro...

and i dont hate cops im just givin ideas as to keep the party goin.
Sometimes cops in certain areas (like utah where drinking is like a mortal sin) are a little over the top with the way they handle small things like parties, so we compensate is all.

[Steelrat]

Sorry, the posting is so fast sometimes that something is taken care of before you finish the post.

And I will say this: If there is some loud all-night kegger going on next door to me, I don't care if they ram the door and toss in flash-bangs, just as long as they shut them up.

[fire1811]

And I will say this: If there is some loud all-night kegger going on next door to me, I don't care if they ram the door and toss in flash-bangs, just as long as they shut them up.

lol that would be sweet

[SlartyBartFast]

Sorry, the posting is so fast sometimes that something is taken care of before you finish the post.

And I will say this: If there is some loud all-night kegger going on next door to me, I don't care if they ram the door and toss in flash-bangs, just as long as they shut them up.

:clap:

Watching the loud neighbours being busted can be a reason for a party of your own. :p

First rule of loud parties: Invite all the neighbours and offer them free drinks (party provides even if everyone else is byob, any shared costs are not expected from neighbours).

But, even then you have to respect those that don't want the noise. :(

But on another note, here it is VERY easy to get halls, gyms, and party rooms to rent. If the party is really that big, the cost per person is minimal and you're guarenteed not to get noise complaints.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Wrong, but you can go on believing that if you want.

Why is it that people feel the need to treat the police as the enemy? Police officers are willing to die to defend you and your loved ones, yet because they enforce laws you don't agree with they are the bad guys? Society as a whole is responsible for the laws, the police just enforce them. You don't have to agree with them, but you do have to obey them or face the consequences.


Man I dont know how true that is. Sure thats what they want you to think but I know some crooked *** cops that are out to use their power and authority however they want to. I know there are cops that really do want to help, and are nice guys. Its easy to tell the nice ones because they approach situations in a different way. But ive grown up in areas where cops are frequently committing the same crimes as the guys they arrest every day. Im not going into details but it happens ALOT more than one would think.

[Thordic]

Seeing people drinking is not probable cause for entry. This isn't 1984 or Soviet Russia.

If the police show up at your house, the best thing to do is to open the door, exit the house, close the door behind you, and talk to them on the front porch. Keep the shades drawn, and noise to a minimum. There is nothing illegal about having a party, and they need more than just the fact its a party to go in and start checking IDs. Of course, they can wait around outside all night and stop people leaving the party, but thats a different story.

My friends had a house, and used to throw parties rather often. The police would show up two or three times per party. When they first moved in, only one of the four guys who lived there was over 21. In 20 - 30 + police visits over the course of a couple years, they only received one citation, for a noise violation.

At first the police would come around to the back yard and the back fence, so my friends starting parking their cars to block access to the backyard from the driveway. You would have had to climb over a car to get at the backyard without going through the house.

If the keg was on the back porch, they'd put it in a cardboard box, or hang some clothes on the railing to keep it from being publically visible.

Be smart about it. Don't put things in public places that could incriminate you. Don't talk to the police with the door wide open, or let them in so they can see everything thats going on. Put some safeguards in place to keep the police happy, such as taking keys. My friends used to collect keys by the front door, so if the police were asking questions, my friend could reach inside, grab the basket, and show the police that anyone planning on drinking wasn't driving home.

There's no reason why you can't party. Do it intelligently, and you won't get in trouble. Probable cause is not "Oh I thought I saw..." or "Oh I thought I smelled..." Any good lawyer would get that thrown right out.

[Steelrat]

There's no reason why you can't party. Do it intelligently, and you won't get in trouble. Probable cause is not "Oh I thought I saw..." or "Oh I thought I smelled..." Any good lawyer would get that thrown right out.

Agreed, do it quietly. And I think underage drinking should be avoided, but thats just me. And any police officer that says "I thought I..." on the stand deserves whatever sort of anguish the defense inflicts. Believe me, if they think there is underage drinking, its going to be "I saw blah blah blah."

[wad04]

proable cause actually can be "i thought i smelled" if they smell alcohol, or pot, they have ever right to search that house.

[tropical_fishy]

even for alcohol? For pot I guess, but how do they know the people in the house are underage?

[Thordic]

proable cause actually can be "i thought i smelled" if they smell alcohol, or pot, they have ever right to search that house.

No, like I said, a good lawyer should get that thrown out.

[wad04]

check out the 4th amendment

basically a probable cause can be anything, just not unreasonable. If it seems as though there is under age drinking, he can and will bust you.

If you even look under age thats probable cause.

[Thordic]

Believe whatever you want, I don't care if you go to jail because you waived your rights or didn't know better.

[SlartyBartFast]

proable cause actually can be "i thought i smelled" if they smell alcohol, or pot, they have ever right to search that house.

Well, no.

But if the cop said: "I smelled pot."

THEN, they'd have probable cause. :p

[Lohman446]

Believe whatever you want, I don't care if you go to jail because you waived your rights or didn't know better.


Theres a point here. Don't waive your rights. If the cop says "I smell pot / see minors / etc can I come in?" your answer is no. If they have to ask you they probably don't have cause, but the instant you say yes, even if they gave you a reason, you have consented and they no longer need a reason to enter. Police are legally allowed to lie to you to get consent - if they have probable cause they need not wait for you to grant consent. If there wrong on probable cause a good lawyer, and enough time, can make things go away - if you consented because they lied to you, well your SOL.

[wad04]

The United States Supreme Court has held that when the odor of a forbidden substance is detected by an officer qualified to know the odor, that basis may justify issuance of a search warrant. Johnson v. United States, 333 U.S. 10, 13, 68 S. Ct. 367, 368-69, 92 L. Ed. 436 (1948).

ie: pot, alcohol, ect....

[cockerkiller68]

How about not letting underage people drink at your house. That's an amazing thought!!!

[Warewolf50]

The United States Supreme Court has held that when the odor of a forbidden substance is detected by an officer qualified to know the odor, that basis may justify issuance of a search warrant. Johnson v. United States, 333 U.S. 10, 13, 68 S. Ct. 367, 368-69, 92 L. Ed. 436 (1948).

ie: pot, alcohol, ect....


since when is alchol a forbidden substence? I dont think cops can say hey i smell underage driinking.

[wad04]

umm yeah, but first they now have probable cause to enter the house and then ID under age drinkers.