karni hits 54 bps

[TMAXXKING1]

watch this karni hit 54 bps .. crazy ,,

http://www.pbvids.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14620

oh yeah link inside a link...

[Maggot6]

I think rrfireblade posted this yesterday. But yeah, an amazing video,

[Smileatom88]

Yes, I saw it too, but it's still incredible.

[Blazestorm]

Yes. Cycling the RAM back and forth 54 times maybe... I guarentee that half of those weren't full shots / wouldn't shoot with paint.

[nameless143]

It sounds like whoever made it turned the dwell down, those definatly arent full shots.

[Steelrat]

Without looking at it, is it really BPS, or CPS? Sounds like CPS to me, which means very little. But still fun to watch.

[Creative Mayhem]

Definately CPS, you couldn't feed it at 54BPS. Not to mention the ball wouldnt have enough time to even enter the breech at that rate.

[Big Weapons]

That video is ridiculous.

54bps on the field. That's literally a wall of balls.

[Ack]

who says E2's don't bounce... :rolleyes:

[Snowball]

good luck to ya when u buy a new solenoid in a day or two..

[FSU_Paintball]

I'm calling BS.

I know a lot about cockers. My main problems with this whole thing is I just don't believe that a karni can pull that backblock all the way back and forth and recock the marker 54 times in one second. The MP4 ram just ain't the fastest thing on the market (although it is pretty fast) and the force alone of having to recock the hammer against the spring just doesn't seem possible 54 times a second.

I had a nice e-cocker. I could set it up to move the back-block around 30+, but it wasn't really recocking... it was just floating the back block around without completely cycling/recocking it every time. It LOOKED like it would shoot that fast, but it wouldn't. I'd be willing to bet that's what's happening in this video.

That's not even talking about aiflow issues... supposing that somehow it really is moving the bolt all the way back and forth 54 times in a second and you could actually load 54 balls per second into the chamber, I have serious doubts that the gun could keep up with that airflow... WGP regs aren't that great, you'd have to have an amazing tank to keep up with that recharge (which is possible to have, I suppose) and I just don't think the internals could keep up... I don't think they'd have enough time to release enough air to shoot a ball very far, recock, recharge, and fully release the air again.... 54 times per second. I just don't see it happening with that setup.

Really, I think the only way this could really happen is with an Eclipse ram, QEVs, the lightest bolt you can find, and an mQ-valve. Otherwise, I just don't believe that a karni is fully cycling and recocking 54 times per second.

I could be wrong... but probably not ;)

[Codekevin0403]

i'm just gunna say who cares if its cycling 54 bps or not it looks sweet and sounds cool too

lol

[FSU_Paintball]

That's true.

[jewie27]

I sweetspotteed the Karnivor at the WGP booth at Huntington Beach. It was pretty fast, but not 54 cps. You can do it just as if you were rapid-firing a RT. Just hold the trigger halfway back.

There is no way that gun can shoot 54 bps.

The Angel G7 is the fastest in the world, right now. It can shoot 45 balls per second, if you can load it that fast...

[Duzzy]

Actually the G7 is tied with "The Grinder" unless I am completely mistaken...

I almost wonder if they are just cycling the gun, in a test mode or something.

[AGD]

Even more entertaining than the "vibrating" back block was the responses of the people on that forum.

AGD

[Mr. Mouse]

q loader could do it.... . .

[68magOwner]

q loader could do it.... . .
but the gun couldnt

[SCpoloRicker]

Even more entertaining than the "vibrating" back block was the responses of the people on that forum.

AGD

eleventy1!

;P

/"G7 does 45bps":rofl:

[can'tthink of1]

I call BS, you can look in the back and watch the video speeding up, almost like fast forwarding.

[shartley]

:nono:
I don’t see how anyone can believe that. It is obvious that it isn’t even cycling, let alone “BPS”ing. And anyone who has been playing paintball for more than a month should know that shot/speed counters on markers are worthless as a gauge for anything relevant.
:rolleyes:

[Duzzy]

I couldn't even read the "BPS" counter on the gun.

But look at it this way, it is all about presentation.

The majority of people are ignorant and way too trusting. Had this not been AO where people are generally not fond of Autocockers then the response probably would have been much different.

But by labeling the claimed "54 bps" in the title people are less likely to question it. They see it as a stated fact and believe it.

Good marketing technique if nothing else, think about how many people will watch the video and want a Karnivore, or an Autococker in general. I would imagine a few (nothing earth shattering perhaps).

In all honesty, I think that the majority of responses on this forum (had a few people not posted sensible counter arguements to why it isn't fully cycling) would have been something along the lines of, "No way a cocker can do that!". Mostly posted out of a dislike for Autocockers in general, not because they actually thought it couldn't they just wouldn't like the fact that it could.

Oh, and I have never owned a marker with a "BPS" counter (There might have been one on my E1 but it was never looked at) and I have been playing for almost 7 years... So actually I really don't know how ineffective they are.

[SlartyBartFast]

In all honesty, I think that the majority of responses on this forum (had a few people not posted sensible counter arguements to why it isn't fully cycling) would have been something along the lines of, "No way a cocker can do that!". Mostly posted out of a dislike for Autocockers in general, not because they actually thought it couldn't they just wouldn't like the fact that it could.

Not true.

Every claim on AO is challenged. Even if it's a fantastic claim about Mags, there will be sceptics here who will refuse to believe until video is produced.

All claims and even videos are useless unless balls are fired.

[Duzzy]

Not true.

Every claim on AO is challenged. Even if it's a fantastic claim about Mags, there will be sceptics here who will refuse to believe until video is produced.

All claims and even videos are useless unless balls are fired.

I think you misunderstood what I intended to say.

My point was, that if some people hadn't pointed out logical reasons why an Autococker cannot fully cycle that fast, there would still be people saying it couldn't.

Only they wouldn't be basing it on any evidence, just the fact that they either do not like Cockers, or don't like the fact that a Cocker "can" cycle that fast.

[FSU_Paintball]

I think the deal with the Eclipse BPS counters is that it will show you how many "shots" the gun is really trying to fire... doesn't mean you'll get the desired result. For instance, there's a forumula for coming up with a specific max ROF on eblades. You add up certain cycle times and divide by 1000, and that shows you your max ROF. Now, whether or not your eblade will actually FIRE at the speed you're after is another issue... but you can put 50BPS settings into the eblade and it'll actually fire... just not 50. I suspect that's what's going on here. The gun is partially cycling 54 times a second, so that's what the shot timer says. Doesn't mean you'll be able to shoot 54 paintballs, doesn't even mean that you get COMPLETE cycles. It just means that the gun registers a trigger pull and tries to cycle the gun 54 times a second.

So I'd say the BPS counter is more accurate than something like WAS, and it is accurate in terms of "the gun is trying to fire this fast", but it doesn't mean you'll actually shoot 54 paintballs per second.

[SlartyBartFast]

Only they wouldn't be basing it on any evidence, just the fact that they either do not like Cockers, or don't like the fact that a Cocker "can" cycle that fast.

Check another thread I'm overly involved in. :rofl:

You CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE.

You can only prove a positive. Unless you can prove with fact and data something is true, you can't blame others for being cynics, no matter what thier motivation is.

[Duzzy]

Check another thread I'm overly involved in. :rofl:

You CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE.

You can only prove a positive. Unless you can prove with fact and data something is true, you can't blame others for being cynics, no matter what thier motivation is.

If you cannot prove a negative what is the point in making the statement?

I didn't blame anyone, just saying that somewhere way out in the Wide World of the Web someone would (notice the conditional I have been using the whole time) probably say it isn't possible just because they don't like Cockers, or they don't want to admit a Cocker can shoot that fast.

Conditionals are wonderful things... I cannot prove myself right, and you cannot prove me wrong because the hypothetical scenario did not exist, does not exist, and cannot exist in the exact same state it was in at the time I made the statement.

[AnimalMother]

Does anyone know if that's an E1 or an E2? Cuz my brother has an E2 Karni, would be pretty sweet to know that his gun's capable of that wicked speed :headbang: .

[FSU_Paintball]

It doesn't matter, it's not capable of that speed. Just tell your brother to lower his COFF as low as it can go without causing the gun to choke or make shootdown.

[nicad]

This Karni link and topic came up on the Guild last weekend..
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=9013&messageid=1113778314
Some decent points are made.. and lost. :) :)

out!

[Chronobreak]

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/400f4ee8_b5ac/bc/My+Documents/goku.wmv?BCaLuZCBn9.IChZT

reminded me of that vid.

i rehosted it cause i couldnt find the original lmk if it doesnt work..but it SHOULD

i also have one of an angel or AHD..cant seem to find it.

btw i need to see paint or its shenanigans

[chefstevie]

its obviously not goin all ther way back and forth its probably got some custom tuning just for it to do that...cycle that much per second without reckocking all the way in and out...just my opinion

[diaper eater]

as stated before in this thread, and i shall repeat in caps so errrbody sees it

THE VIDEO WAS DOCTORED

watch the video in the background, sped up, then pay attention to the natural movements of the camera, overly agile and quick for someone trying to steady the camera

[Duzzy]

I would have to agree.

Watch the Football Game in the background, especially the 9 second point. Some guy goes zooming past the referees... Way to fast to say the least...

[Z-man]

I just came on and saw this (sheesh set out for a few days and look what happens). I have not studies the mvie in detail but I did take the time to rip the sound off it and make some simple images for you all to look at.

First off, shame on these guys for doing this inside a room where it can echo and shame on them for have a TV running with music going on. Thi makes is all the harder to tell what is a shot and what is music.

The second thing that would be nice is if he had pull made it shoot a single shot before the sting of shots he made. that way you can see what the sound signature of the double action sounds like and not accidently be counting the return cycle of the marker as a "shot"

Now all that aside if the marker is cycling fully each time the sound spikes should be about the same. However, when I looked at a section that sounded consistantly fast (22.6-23.6 sec) I did not get a good clear indication of the spikes to count. Where is the noise spike background noise and where is it a shot? You tell me. (notice each image is a zoomed in version of the last 1 second, then 3/10ths of a second, then 1/10th of a second)

http://www.zakvetter.com/image/linked_images/1-sec-view.gif
http://www.zakvetter.com/image/linked_images/3-10ths-sec-view.gif
http://www.zakvetter.com/image/linked_images/1-10th-sec-view.gif

[Enemy]

thats alot of spikes and they arent spaced off too evenly either i cant differentiate anything got any opinions zman

[Z-man]

thats alot of spikes and they arent spaced off too evenly either i cant differentiate anything got any opinions zman

Well I have 2 thoughts.

1- Lets assume that this video is not doctored and what we are seeing is what the gun is doing. So how do we explain the lack of consistent sound spikes for analysis? I would imagine that many of the cycles (as we have seen in other dry fire videos) are not complete and because of that they do not produce as much noise as a full cycle. It's sputtering and stumbling over itself unable to fully cycle. Why it cannot fully cycle is a whole different question I could not answer. Maybe the gun cannot physically cycle those speeds, maybe the tank cannot supply air fast enough, I don’t know...

2- If this video was doctored (and I have not looked at it in depth to see) here is what I can show. I took a 1 second interval of my 34CPS video on my site that I did with my Classic RT way back when and sped it up to about 77CPS as shown below:

http://www.zakvetter.com/image/linked_images/edited-sound-77cps.gif

Now having sped it up about 2.4x the sound pitch was also higher (its kind of funny it sounds like someone making a high pitched fart sound with their mouth). So If I were going to make it sound like 77CPS at the normal pitch the marker fires at, I would have to adjust the pitch (and keep the duration the same) in my sound program. When I did that BIAS Peak (the professional sound program I use) made a file that looked like this:

http://www.zakvetter.com/image/linked_images/edited-sound-77cps-pitch.gif

Here is a detail of the that pitch adjusted 1 second file. It looks very similar in its erratic nature to the images above of the Karnivoer video to me.

http://www.zakvetter.com/image/linked_images/edited-sound-pitch-detail.gif

It still sounds like 77CPS but its not as crisp but it I think I can make a pretty convincing video out of my old one showing 77 (or heck 90, 143 I don’t care) CPS.

Now again, I don't know if there is any modification to this video or not but if it is legit the people who made it set it up poorly.

[93civiccpe]

Hey,
I'm a huge cocker fan and I've been using them, building them, and selling them for a while now. I will be the first so say no way. They'll never get anything near that with real paint, and it does look doctored. BTW, someone message me as to how fast a q-loader can load paint and how it operates. I've seen pics of them in the for-sale section and from what I saw it looked like a pod with a spring in it.. lol. Anyways, I have a halo-b with victory & rip, and even though it claims 35 it can't hold that feed rate most of the time. More people need to go pick up a pump gun and play a full day with it so they can remember how to play "tactical" again instead of just throwing the most paint. You won't believe how much your playing style changes, and how little paint you will end up using. (BTW, I'm definitely not talking to the speedballers out there, more to woodsball players. If you take a pump on a speedball course against some high speed electros, then you get my badge of courage.. or stupidity.. lol.)
In general, I don't know many people who have fast enough and strong enough fingers to shoot over 20bps. So who cares how far past 20 it can go.. I don't know any fields that allow full-auto so when would you even use it.

[Teamslayer76]

Also note that there is no hopper capable of feeding that fast. The only one that comes close the the Q-Loader but I doubt it could feed 40 bps even. So if its says its feeding 50+ bps is a bunch of bs.

[Codekevin0403]

it feeds about 37 bps consistantly, and i have tested. If i had a video camera or a camera i'd show you, but i'm short on that. And it uses 'helical drive technology' which means that it uses a spring to force paintballs through the tube into the breech...i think.


*edit* Sorry i forgot something, the equalizer board for the halo is claimed by wicked air sports to feed 50+ bps. I'm thinking that's just a burst but i don't know because i haven't personally tried it yet. But that's a thought.

[SCpoloRicker]

OMGBBQROFL!!

Zak shoots 77 bps!! :p

[hitech]

Nice work Zak! :cheers:

[FSU_Paintball]

As far as analyzing it with goldwave, let's not forget that aside from all the background noise and echoing, there's 2 very loud noises per shot - the shot itself, and the backblock slapping back and forth. So it's possible that you're counting 2 shots per one "real" shot

[txaggie08]

anybody good with math? take the recharge adischarge rates of the ram versus the power it takes to cycle one. ill tlak to my cousin, hes a mathmatics major.......there should be an actual mathmatecal formula that will give you exactly how many time that ram can completely cycle the gun. i would assume that would be a way to get the max ROF of any gun(pneumatic that is). just a though.

looking at the way that guns back block was moving, im thinking it either wasnt recocking all the way or he had the cocking rod out. im not familiar enough with what the butt end of a karni looks like to tell you if its there or not. it didnt sound like the gun was firing at all to tell you the truth, but then i might be wrong. i know my buddys cocker sounds like cannon, even on video

[txaggie08]

it feeds about 37 bps consistantly, and i have tested. If i had a video camera or a camera i'd show you, but i'm short on that. And it uses 'helical drive technology' which means that it uses a spring to force paintballs through the tube into the breech...i think.


*edit* Sorry i forgot something, the equalizer board for the halo is claimed by wicked air sports to feed 50+ bps. I'm thinking that's just a burst but i don't know because i haven't personally tried it yet. But that's a thought.

ive heard that has a lot to due with the feed rate between the first and second ball. Just something i was reading the other day. apparently they take the "max BPS fed" from the first few balls were there a crap load of tension on the stack

[93civiccpe]

anybody good with math? take the recharge adischarge rates of the ram versus the power it takes to cycle one. ill tlak to my cousin, hes a mathmatics major.......there should be an actual mathmatecal formula that will give you exactly how many time that ram can completely cycle the gun. i would assume that would be a way to get the max ROF of any gun(pneumatic that is). just a though.

looking at the way that guns back block was moving, im thinking it either wasnt recocking all the way or he had the cocking rod out. im not familiar enough with what the butt end of a karni looks like to tell you if its there or not. it didnt sound like the gun was firing at all to tell you the truth, but then i might be wrong. i know my buddys cocker sounds like cannon, even on video


Your friend should fix his cocker then.. lol. Just a fyi, cockers aren't supposed to be loud. If it's making a banging noise tell him to unscrew his backblock anywhere from 1/4 to a full turn because if he has it constantly banging against the back of the marker then that's not good for the gun. (There are also other factors that might cause the marker to be loud.. especially the barrel). Anyways, if his cocker sounds like a cannon I would assume either somthing is wrong or he bought an imitation cocker (a.k.a. dragun). In either case, if he does think there's something wrong causing the noise you can pm me the info and I'll help him out.

[txaggie08]

Your friend should fix his cocker then.. lol. Just a fyi, cockers aren't supposed to be loud. If it's making a banging noise tell him to unscrew his backblock anywhere from 1/4 to a full turn because if he has it constantly banging against the back of the marker then that's not good for the gun. (There are also other factors that might cause the marker to be loud.. especially the barrel). Anyways, if his cocker sounds like a cannon I would assume either somthing is wrong or he bought an imitation cocker (a.k.a. dragun). In either case, if he does think there's something wrong causing the noise you can pm me the info and I'll help him out.

no its a brand spankin new superstock. now somethingbeing wrong with it wouldnt suprise me. that gun was messed up out of the box(lemme put it this way. i had to show him how to turn it on(not mr genious.......) and the dam trigger pin fell out the fourth shot). i guess its no louder than my mag or spyder but its not the whisper silent thing i remember being shot at the first time i eve saw one(baby poo green STO.....dont remember the year but that had to have been 8yrs ago or more. also the first time i ever saw nitro....

[SIGSays]

i dont believe it

[atm743]

i dont believe it

me neather

theres a pmi tank on that

they cant keep up??