Hype in paintball

[Lohman446]

Ok.. I started this thread for open discussion. First how do we define hype, what is it? Who uses it? To what end? How successful are they? Who doesn't use it? What does it cost them? What do they gain from not using it?

Let me state right away that I do not classify hype as bad - in fact it may be one of the considerations I made when deciding to shoot a Shocker. Where do you stand on it, what do you think?

[WARPED1]

Just about every PB company uses hype. Those that don't fade slowly into obscurity. Take AGD for example................

[RRfireblade]

First how do we define hype, what is it? Massive stretching,manipulation or pure fabrication of the facts.


Who uses it? Everyone who's still in business to some extent


To what end? That's up to the morals of the Hyper-er.


How successful are they? In most things ,quite a bit. Paintball seems to excel exceptionally but any area where the mentallity is to skim over the facts because I want it NOW will see the greatest results.


Who doesn't use it? What does it cost them? People going out of business.;)


What do they gain from not using it? Integrity,Trust

Let me state right away that I do not classify hype as bad - in fact it may be one of the considerations I made when deciding to shoot a Shocker.

Where do you stand on it, what do you think? Used in moderation and without excessive abuse, I'm fine with it. Every person has to make the judgement for themselves where they draw the line.

[WARPED1]

First how do we define hype, what is it? Massive stretching,manipulation or pure fabrication of the facts.


Who uses it? Everyone who's still in business to some extent


To what end? That's up to the morals of the Hyper-er.


How successful are they? In most things ,quite a bit. Paintball seems to excel exceptionally but any area where the mentallity is to skim over the facts because I want it NOW will see the greatest results.


Who doesn't use it? What does it cost them? People going out of business.;)


What do they gain from not using it? Integrity,Trust

Let me state right away that I do not classify hype as bad - in fact it may be one of the considerations I made when deciding to shoot a Shocker.

Where do you stand on it, what do you think? Used in moderation and without excessive abuse, I'm fine with it. Every person has to make the judgement for themselves where they draw the line.
Well said. I concur.........

[yakitori]

First how do we define hype, what is it? Massive stretching,manipulation or pure fabrication of the facts.


Who uses it? Everyone who's still in business to some extent


To what end? That's up to the morals of the Hyper-er.


How successful are they? In most things ,quite a bit. Paintball seems to excel exceptionally but any area where the mentallity is to skim over the facts because I want it NOW will see the greatest results.


Who doesn't use it? What does it cost them? People going out of business.;)


What do they gain from not using it? Integrity,Trust

Let me state right away that I do not classify hype as bad - in fact it may be one of the considerations I made when deciding to shoot a Shocker.

Where do you stand on it, what do you think? Used in moderation and without excessive abuse, I'm fine with it. Every person has to make the judgement for themselves where they draw the line.

does that apply to the pneumag frame?

[WARPED1]

does that apply to the pneumag frame?
PTP barely uses hype, so I doubt it :rolleyes: ............

[Lohman446]

does that apply to the pneumag frame?

Most of the hype around that frame is from customers, not PTP.. PTP basically just released a video and some specifications a lot of what has been added has been by customers. Which leads me to point out, at least in my mind, hype is not limited to customers. Consumers, especially in competetition to validate there equipment, hype more than the companies. At least in my mind.

[Steelrat]

I think that a lot of hype is not generated by the company, but by the users themselves. I remember claims that the cyborg would shoot 2000 shots off a 45/4500 from multiple borg users, even though its just about impossible. I also see lots of user-generated hype over the ego, the current gun du jour. And lets not forget the incredible hype over the hAir trigger, may it rest in peace, generated by people who didn't own one, and in fact had never seen one in operation.

[Steelrat]

So, of course, Lohman posts something similar to mine while I am typing. Poop. :(

[yakitori]

Most of the hype around that frame is from customers, not PTP.. PTP basically just released a video and some specifications a lot of what has been added has been by customers. Which leads me to point out, at least in my mind, hype is not limited to customers. Consumers, especially in competetition to validate there equipment, hype more than the companies. At least in my mind.

do videos posted by the developer and pics entered into the GOTM w/ highlights saying 1mm pull, fully adjustable, etc. Is not hype from the company/manufacturer?

Is it not hype that it is posted on here and PBN forums? Tell me why a product that is put out by SP and its featured listed. For example the Ion. SP listed the features, and it was revolutionary in terms of price to performance. Then the consumers and ppl who frequent the Websites discuss and hype it up w/ information that they got from some undocument/illegit source is hyping it up....yet SP is responsible for the hype??

If so, why does that no apply to the pneumag frame. Ill bet if you ask any other forum other than AO that if the pneumag frame is hype or not, they will have diff. opinions.

HOw about a yes or no answer as to whether or not the pneumag is hype or not. Dont tell me PTP doesnt hype up. If so, your need to pull your head out of the sand. :cool:

[yakitori]

PTP barely uses hype, so I doubt it :rolleyes: ............

bullshavec

[SlartyBartFast]

do videos posted by the developer and pics entered into the GOTM w/ highlights saying 1mm pull, fully adjustable, etc. Is not hype from the company/manufacturer?

That's not hype if it is true.

From Miriam-Webster:
Main Entry: hype
Function: noun
1 : DECEPTION, PUT-ON
2 : PUBLICITY; especially : promotional publicity of an extravagant or contrived kind


A simple video is promotion. It's not contrived, and hardly extravagent. Unless you can prove otherwise, it's not deceptive.

Everyone has to promote. Not all promotion is hype. But the line between the two is hazy open to interpretaion and opinion.

[yakitori]

That's not hype if it is true.

From Miriam-Webster:
Main Entry: hype
Function: noun
1 : DECEPTION, PUT-ON
2 : PUBLICITY; especially : promotional publicity of an extravagant or contrived kind


A simple video is promotion. It's not contrived, and hardly extravagent. Unless you can prove otherwise, it's not deceptive.

Everyone has to promote. Not all promotion is hype. But the line between the two is hazy open to interpretaion and opinion.


you guys are SOOOOOO biased. I dont see how you guys can say that other companies hype, but AGD doesnt? What a bunch of crap.

[RRfireblade]

Honestly, have we Hyped it so far? No, not yet. All I've done so far is given the function,the specs and some guestimates on other factors. (and posted some unspectacular vids ;))

Will we hype it when it's ready for sale? Sure as heck.I'm going to tell why I think it's a great product, why I think it's a great value, why I think you 'need' to buy it.I'm going to show all the positives in the best possible light and make it look attractive a product as possible.

Will I lie about it to make it sell? No way, Not a chance, Not a even a remote possiblity, not before I'm laying dead in a box pushing up daisys,never....period.

That's the difference that seperate the bottom feeder slime ball Hypemonsters from those with Integrity and Honor and hope to be in business for the long haul.

[SlartyBartFast]

you guys are SOOOOOO biased. I dont see how you guys can say that other companies hype, but AGD doesnt? What a bunch of crap.

YOU GUYS?!? Don't count me in that. And I thought you were bleating about PTP not AGD. :rolleyes:

I just made a rather rational point that Hype is in the eye of the beholder. I'd even go so far as pointing out the same a Lohman, hype isn't necessarily a bad thing. You can hype good points...

However SOME hype is undeniably bad/exagerated and fits the negative connotation I posted. Such as seal forward technology, "winning, we patented that too", closed bolt accuracy, ....

Now, how about you go readjust the attitude and come back without the "you guys" chip on your shoulder. :rolleyes:

[Lohman446]

I never said AGD didn't Hype. level ten was Hype - whether it performed as advertised or not it was hyped.

And Im with others on this.. Dont count me as one of you guys. One of my questions was deliberate. What happens to companies that don't hype? It should have read "hype effectively"

[yakitori]

my bad slarty. :cheers: I didnt mean you guys in a threatening way. I actually didnt even mean to put AGD. I meant the pneumag frame. Its kinda funny cause what I am getting from this thread is.....Hype is deception and yet its not bad? Then companies that dont hype will go out of business? Then PTP doesnt hype yet there is a line of young ppl waiting for the Pneumag frame to come out just from watching the video on it. And what lies have other companies said about thier guns. That such and such gun is capable of 17bps? Is that not true. Such and such gun has breakbeam eyes? Is that not true? I just hear ppl complaining about hype as it is bad but only about the "other" guys gun or equipment.

Its bullcrap. Not all hype is bad I agree, but ppl here are using it in an attempt to show that "thier" product is not hyped in any way at all. I personally believe it is a load of garbage. How can you say that hype is bad, yet good, and that yours isnt hyped because it does what you say it does? Its twisted. Can you guys not see it that way? Not even if you try?

Seriously. As said before "low pressure Experts" is considered hype, yet "because quality shoots so straight" is not hype? And "designed for the art of winning" is hype, yet "posting vids and long arguments and patent infringements between Deadlywind and PTP and the PTP hype on the hair frame is not hype? THats absurd. Why is it any different. Do you fail to see that?

[Lohman446]

Seriously. As said before "low pressure Experts" is considered hype, yet "because quality shoots so straight" is not hype? ?

Both hype, as is designed for the art of winning. Posting videos and specs on the web.. well tis nto hype, but ignoring all the hype that comes out of it, well thats hype in a way.

"the low pressure experts" sounds great, but the benefits of low pressure are unproven. "quality always shoots straight" Sounds great, but does that mean you are quality? This is what I mean... there a lot of hype in paintball, around nearly every successful company. Sometimes its not from the company, but it is from the players. Often its both.

[yakitori]

I guess I can see what you mean. I just didnt think that since it was a slogan, it was hype. As for the Pneumag frame, we will see how hyped it was when it comes out and ppl use it or experience probs w/ it. That kinda puts some pressure on the ppl who posted vids, and designed it. Thats right. They had better hope that ppl have no probs, and that it works great.

Personally I prefer my trigger pull to be about 3mm, 1mm is just too short for me. I cant get a good rhythm (spell?) w/ that short of a pull. RRfireblade, you better hope that thing rocks like it does in the vid when everyone puts them on backorder :shooting: :p

and has anyone ever showed that it is unshortstrokable. (is that a word? it is now. :D)

[RRfireblade]

It seems quite clear to everyone but you perhaps.

There is good hype and bad hype.

Hype, as in to create excitement and promotion using reliable facts and accurate and clearly stated details to generate interest in good faith.


And...

Hype, as in the use deception, distorted truth or out right lies to generate interest.

"Come to my Party this weekend. It will best party this summer. I'll have good music, good food and I promise a good time for all."


"Come to my Party this weekend, It will be better than any party ever thrown by anybody else in history. Just by showing up ,it will make you stronger,smarter and better looking.Mearly being present will change your life for ever."

There is a difference and those who are are the victims of the latter 'are' the intended targets and truly the victims overall.

That's the point of this whole thread.

[yakitori]

but, nobody in this thread has showed that kind of statements coming from not ONE single company. All Ive seen is Low pressure experts so far. Ive not seen SP, Dye, or AKA KNOWN PROVEN Legitimate statements that give ppl the reason for saying they have Hyped (the bad kind, since I dont know the differnce :rolleyes: ) their markers.

[tony3]

Hype is basically used in all aspects of buisness. Look at gillete. The mach 3 power is so hyped. They just released their new "nitro" version which does nothing at all, just a new color. The fact that the m3 power really doesn't do anything aswell. Hype is used in all buisness.

[RRfireblade]

RRfireblade, you better hope that thing rocks like it does in the vid when everyone puts them on backorder :shooting: :p

and has anyone ever showed that it is unshortstrokable. (is that a word? it is now. :D)

I will promise you this:

if when it goes into production,it's not what it is intended to be I'll be the first to say so. After I build the Protos, it's out of my hands.I can only hope it stays true to form. There are those on this board and others that have shot the Pneumag as more people do,they can surely speak for themselves.'Lee' has at our event last month for instance and I expect 4-5 other AO'ers at our next event who will as well.

I will appologize by the way,if in some manner I have given you reason to have a negitive impression of Myself, the Pneumag or PTP.

I'm just a regular person like everyone else, I just happen to build stuff for a living and when they work out well AND I'm allowed to talk about it since many times I'm not, I get excited about it. The fact is, I'm not the one selling anything, I don't make a dime off of it if it does sell and I gain nothing for promoting it.You have NO idea I swear to you, the amount of time I spend answering PMs,chat convos, hundreds of thread postings, emails and phone calls.It staggering from this one product alone not to mention the others that are 'not' AO mag related. If I hadn't posted anything 'no one' would even know about it, maybe that would have been for the best IDK. I'm just one person doing what I can to promote the sport and mags when ever possible. Hopefully that 'Hype' will prevail over everything else.

Jay.

[Lohman446]

but, nobody in this thread has showed that kind of statements coming from not ONE single company. All Ive seen is Low pressure experts so far. Ive not seen SP, Dye, or AKA KNOWN PROVEN Legitimate statements that give ppl the reason for saying they have Hyped (the bad kind, since I dont know the differnce :rolleyes: ) their markers.


This took a long while to find, it was on AKA's website in 2001 under the automags section "The AutoMag is a good rec. play gun. Made from stainless it will last a long time without heavy maintenance. However the design has a few flaws, one of which is the on-off. Being a blow forward gun it is a short to medium range gun. It's a good beginners gun."

Read that thread in historic http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=53531&highlight=alexander

AKA has hyped hard in the past

I would also point ot there "they would fight and win the SP lawsuit" followed by rolling over, which hurt a lot of there vendors who had faith that they backed what they said.

[Jimbud]

but, nobody in this thread has showed that kind of statements coming from not ONE single company. All Ive seen is Low pressure experts so far. Ive not seen SP, Dye, or AKA KNOWN PROVEN Legitimate statements that give ppl the reason for saying they have Hyped (the bad kind, since I dont know the differnce :rolleyes: ) their markers.


Ok here is an example from the Smartparts web site for the all americain barrel:

pure b.s.

"Accurate Beyond Reason
The All-American has proven to be the most accurate barrel made, year after year after year. The accuracy is due to the original Smart Parts patent. Our spiral porting allows a paintball to regain its shape after the taxing initial sendoff a marker gives it when the trigger is pulled. Our stepped bore design also helps flight stability and assists in velocity consistency. Our famous honing process keeps the barrel super smooth and in perfect size for a paintball to have a perfect flight-right into the other guy’s face. We made it this way so that we could win as easily as possible. Stock marker barrels are disappointing at best, usually nothing more than an aluminum tube with threading at one end. We wanted a barrel that was so accurate it was almost unbelievable, almost unreasonable. Here it is. "

[RRfireblade]

Dye:


Innovative technology bought someone elses patent,not even that concept was innovativeand evolving style have taken the DM5 to the next level define 'next' level? How many could there be at 1.5K price . Performance, dependability and elegance are standard. since when is elegance a feature?


The DM5 is simply a perfect synthesis of form and function according to who?, allowing you to control it like it was an extension of yourself. Extreme 23 bps rate of fire at your fingertips allows you to command the field in front of you while offering your next move. who can pull that fast?plus many other markers are faster max ROF Intelligent electronic control (IEC) allows you to customize your firing and gas consumption options to provide the performance efficiency that you desire. uhm, a dwell setting? that's a big leapThe DM5 body's dynamic contours and symmetric edges reflect elegant beauty while encasing the patented Fuse bolt technology. Dye's precision quality aluminum construction, coupled with unmatched engineering, compared to who? provides dependability that you can rely on. These features simply make the DM5 the absolute ultimate paintball marker in the world. if that's true, no other marker in that price range would ever be sold


Our new Dura-Guard upper is made of high strength Kevlar® , the stuff that stops bullets, so you know your shoes will last. I guarrantee a bullet will tear right thru that shoe tho

Smart Parts:


The Shocker SFT provides the high rate of fire and simplicity of design found in most open bolt markers yet has the incredible accuracy and razor flat trajectory heralded in closed bolt markers. think that says it all right there


The All-American has proven to be the most accurate barrel made, year after year after year. your kidding me right?The accuracy is due to the original Smart Parts patent. Our spiral porting allows a paintball to regain its shape after the taxing initial sendoff a marker gives it when the trigger is pulled. since when does porting effect accuracy?Our stepped bore design also helps flight stability and assists in velocity consistency..... Stock marker barrels are disappointing at best, usually nothing more than an aluminum tube with threading at one end. what's theirs made of, plutonium?We wanted a barrel that was so accurate it was almost unbelievable, almost unreasonable. Here it is. well they got that one right

Bob Long:


Bob Long continues to set the standards and then raises them each time he introduces a new marker. 5 diferent models each year and we're still waiting for a 'new' one


A tremendous value for the money, all markers in the Intimidator series offer accuracy, reliability and affordability. value? find me one person that thinks a Timmy is a value marker


It's the first choice in markers for many high caliber professional players as well as demanding amateur players. we all know pros don't choose anything they use

Kingman:

http://www.kingman.com/index_05.html

Just click on ANYTHING :D


AGD:


"Once in a while, there comes a product that revolutionizes the way the game is played. [LvL 10] Um...no I don't think it will



That's just a few, I think it makes the point. And for the record I own markers from each of those companies. ;)

[Lohman446]

Hype.. started by consumers, and encouraged by the company

Remember the green M&M... the urban legend that everyone seems to know that it is an aphrodesiac. No scientific evidence to support it, and I think most people know better.

But remember the green M&M when it was on the commercial? Mars certainly made use of that hype.

[AGDlover]

IMO now all I will state in this is IMO everyone is entitled to their own option but hype to me is glorifying of a product(s) w/ or w/o testing and looks and performance basised on feedback and on media coverage of the product.
Now I don’t care if you shoot a Talon or a DM6billion that shoots Squillions of bps. What ever you feel comfortable shooting I believe gets the job done for your style of playing. I've been told my Emag sucks when I play air ball or Xball but my gun suites me and how I play. Why won’t I shoot a Shocker or DMx in the "hype" of them? I may use one down the road but at the moment with the performance I'm getting with my gun, it’s perfect for me and how I play. If someone thinks the same about your gun you know that’s their own option and they are entitled to say what they want but hype is no match for true performance.

[tony3]

That's just a few, I think it makes the point. And for the record I own markers from each of those companies. ;)


Good post, just shows how much hype is used in paintball by ALL companies.

[CoolHand]

I think the art of hype has really been brought to its pinacle in paintball. The PB world as refined and reconstituted pure hype, to the point that it needs a new definition:

Hype - Verb, Noun, insult, slang, trump card for loosing arguments:

The art of saying a lot, while actually saying nothing, and letting the buying public fill in the blanks with whatever motivates them to buy things the most.

The only analogy that can be drawn at this time, is the age old paradox of the scary movie monster. If the audience never sees the monster, the movie is exponentually scarier because the monster in question becomes every movie goer's worst nightmare. If you show it, then its a let down.

In much the same way, ad hype is a shell game with the facts. The idea is to constantly flirt with the facts, and say wonderful things, which really mean nothing, while disclosing as little as possible. This way the consumer gets to fill in the blank spots with whatever they need to in order to convince themselves that they need to buy the product in question. Giving a bunch of facts just gets in their way, and can be a letdown.

This is the line I draw to decide if what I am hearing is BS or not:

If it says wonderful things, but contains no verifiable facts, then it is likely hype of the above order.

If, on the other hand, it speaks highly of the product, but also contains a list of features and facts that are verifiable, then I don't call it hype. That's just good advertising.

Like my pappy always said ---> "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up." :ninja:

[shartley]

Hype.. started by consumers, and encouraged by the company

Remember the green M&M... the urban legend that everyone seems to know that it is an aphrodesiac. No scientific evidence to support it, and I think most people know better.

But remember the green M&M when it was on the commercial? Mars certainly made use of that hype.
A crafty business will indeed make use of general myths to help them, but it is often easier to create the myth themselves.

There are actually very few cases where the company simply ran with a consumer started “hype”. Hype is almost always started by businesses, not the consumer as a rule. All anyone has to do to see this is look back to early marketing, from door to door salesmen, to snake-oil, to print ads and then early TV and Radio spots. HYPE. And I would say that in all actuality hype has declined over the years, or at least become more subtle.

Now hype tends to be borderline truths slightly inflated, or truths misrepresented to make the consumer think something that may not actually be the truth. Most manufacturers have found out that if they overdo the hype (look back to the 50s and earlier for GOOD examples of hype) consumers now days will not believe it. They need to keep it just within tolerable levels and tell the customer what they want to hear to persuade them to buy their product over someone else’s.

And in all actuality a lot of hype now days is not even for the “new” customer, but for the customers who show brand loyalty when making purchases. Again, it tells the customers what they want to hear to help support a purchasing decision they most likely would make even without the hype. But it enforces that “warm and fuzzy” and increases the pride of owning that product…. whether deserved or not. And it helps “glue” them in their purchase and keep a wandering eye on their product and not someone else’s. Marketing and hype aimed at enforcing brand loyalty is very important now days and the smart business realizes this…. even if the consumer does not.

Another great conversation would be whether companies really give customers what they “want”, or whether companies make customers simply believe that. I think a lot of folks would be surprised to know the truth on many things. Customers most often think they control the products being made and sold, they set what is “cool” and what is not, and what they “want” and don’t want…. But is that the truth?

[yakitori]

So fireblade...IS the pneumag frame UNshortstrokable? You never answered that.

I personally believe that there is a design flaw in the On/off/sear of the mag. THat is what leads to shortstroking and lead to the development of the LX bolt. Is it not? Nobody ever answers my good questions. :)

I still feel that AKAs slogan Low pressure Experts is not hype. It doesnt say that there is any benefits to low pressure, or that low pressure is better than high pressure. It just says they are experts at low pressure. I think that statement is fair because it is backed up w/ being one of the lowest pressure guns there are.....but w/o being inefficient. We all know that Viking is probably one of, if not the most efficient marker made. And this was years ago that they made it. I havent seen anyone produce as an efficient low pressure gun in the next 3 years since the viking. And AKA delivers when it comes to Low pressure and Consistency. Everyone knows they make great regs. The chronograph doesnt hype. It shows what it shows and nothing more. Everything else is either believing or not believing.

Because quality shoots so straight is hype, because it leads ppl to believe that AGD quality makes the gun shoot straighter, but as we all know that is not true. My tippmanns have shot just as straight as my mags have and they have a plastic powertube and bolt. All guns shoot along a similar parabolic curve. No credible scientific study has shown otherwise.

As for the SP hype, I can see that. Those kinds of statements are outright stupid because how can you say the AA is the BEST barrel out year after year. Its a lie. Spiral porting does nothing for accuracy. Ive used AAs and I personally think they suck.

Im not saying that there isnt any hype from a company to boost their sales. Of course there is, but that doesnt mean the product doesnt do what is says it does. Personal opinions and testimony has no effect on performance. Thats stupid. If ppl buy it because so and so said things like that about it, then they are sheep, dumb, or just noobs.

Thats what it boils down to. TV is full of hype for EVERY SINGLE product. From shampoo, to viagra. PPl that buy based on hype-ish statements are suckers and nothing more. But, that doesnt mean they wont be going around w/ clean hair and long lasting erections.

:cheers:

[Lohman446]

I personally believe that there is a design flaw in the On/off/sear of the mag. THat is what leads to shortstroking and lead to the development of the LX bolt. Is it not? Nobody ever answers my good questions. :)

I still feel that AKAs slogan Low pressure Experts is not hype.

To me.. saying something and then letting the public make there own assumptions and roll there own hype out is a great thing. Its awesome hype, one of the safest forms to engage in. Remember AKAs statement about marker range that I hunted down above, this was hype based of inaccuracies. However they dont say the lower pressure experts for nothing. They say it, and then others turn it into useful hype. Its hype, at least in kind, and encourages customer hype - which may be more valuable to a company than company hype.

[RRfireblade]

So fireblade...IS the pneumag frame UNshortstrokable? You never answered that.

I personally believe that there is a design flaw in the On/off/sear of the mag. THat is what leads to shortstroking and lead to the development of the LX bolt. Is it not? Nobody ever answers my good questions. :)



It definately seems to be so far, I think my first 'trigger' only vid shows that pretty clearly. Do to the way the trigger mechanism functions ,a trigger pull of any any amount of length or rate of speed long enough to trip the 'system' results in a properly fired shot otherwise it simply doesn't fire. There really isn't any way to get a 'partial' shot by altering the pull of the trigger.As for the production version I can't say as of yet cause I don't one to try. :) However, I don't see any reason why if they're built correctly and our out sourced venders replicate the parts correctly, that should be the case with them as well.

I will say this however, you can still and maybe more easily get chuffing and such on an incorrectly set up Level 10 or a very new and 'tight' valve that's still breaking in do the ease of reaching a high ROF, much like on a E/Xmag. But that is true in any case regardless of grip frame, this trigger doesn't correct any issues that may exist in the valve system itself.I would BTW, like to hear what you thing is a flaw in the sear/on/off that creates short stroking tho.

[yakitori]

so for the other question you didnt answer. Was the LX bolt designed to alleviate chops do to short stroking, or does everyone believe that it was because it bobbles the next ball from the breach? If it was the latter, couldnt that be corrrect w/ a slight change in the bolt shape?



I didnt say that there is a flaw in the sear/on/off that leads to short stroking, but the whole system itself with the way it is designed makes it capable of being short stroked. And IMO short stroking is not a good thing to have regardless of how the trigger is pulled. That is why a lot of ppl prefer stock on/offs compared to ULT kits.

Let me put it this way. WHen I hand my mag to someone who hasnt shot a mag before, they short stroke the hell out of it. Is it user error? Probably. But do they short stroke my other mech guns. No.

Im just saying that short stroking exist and cannot be eliminated with the design of the mag, or a cocker. You have more experience in building guns and such, maybe you can explain to us why it is a problem or how it can be corrected w/o redesigning the pneumatic funtion of the valve, sear, and on/off.

[SlartyBartFast]

so for the other question you didnt answer. Was the LX bolt designed to alleviate chops do to short stroking, or does everyone believe that it was because it bobbles the next ball from the breach? If it was the latter, couldnt that be corrrect w/ a slight change in the bolt shape?

That was tried and tested. With the level7 bolt the bolt just travelled too quickly.

The various incarnations of ronded end helped but didn't eliminate breaks.

Tom was the only manufacturer posting test data and being open about ongoing developments. He was also the only one to do actual paintball related research.

It's for those reasons he built a solid "no hype" reputation.

It's too bad he pulled out. :cry:

[shartley]

Tom was the only manufacturer posting test data and being open about ongoing developments. He was also the only one to do actual paintball related research.

It's for those reasons he built a solid "no hype" reputation.

I don’t think you can say that he was the only one to do actual paintball related research and be truthful about it. You may THINK he was, but that is not the same as it being true. Do you have proof that no other company did paintball related research? Do you honestly think the entire industry just did whatever and hoped it worked? Only Tom Kaye actually tested anything, right? LOL Oh my.

And the fact that other companies don’t post on internet forums or their sites the research they may or may not be doing does not mean they are NOT doing it. That is a falsehood that Tom Kaye himself played upon and hoped the average paintball player would believe. And in doing so, guess what? That became the AGD HYPE. Being “anti-Hype” and making that your mantra makes it HYPE in its own right.

Yeah, the ONLY guy who ever did paintball research was forced out of the industry by everyone else who didn’t have a clue…… :rolleyes: ;)

[SlartyBartFast]

Yeah, the ONLY guy who ever did paintball research was forced out of the industry by everyone else who didn’t have a clue…… :rolleyes: ;)

Well, let's see. Anyone else do fundamental research of paintballs in flight? Or of paintball spin? Anyone else actually develop improved paintballs?

Anyone else get military funded products based on aerodynamics research?

Sure, others are "experimenting". But not in a scientific way. More trial and error and tinkering.

AGD/Tom didn't have a clue as far as marketing and running an on-going business. Got to have someone running the day to day at the shop while the head honcho digs for bones or tests military gadgetry.

[shartley]

Well, let's see. Anyone else do fundamental research of paintballs in flight? Or of paintball spin? Anyone else actually develop improved paintballs?

Anyone else get military funded products based on aerodynamics research?

Sure, others are "experimenting". But not in a scientific way. More trial and error and tinkering.

AGD/Tom didn't have a clue as far as marketing and running an on-going business. Got to have someone running the day to day at the shop while the head honcho digs for bones or tests military gadgetry.
Again, do you have any PROOF that no one but Tom did any of those things? Did Tom actually produce any “improved” paintballs that I can buy and shoot at any field? No? Maybe more companies did testing as well, but determined the same thing Tom did… that it is not cost effective to use anything other than what we do now.

As for military funded projects based on aerodynamics research… bah, whether a company gets contracts or not does not indicate whether they DID testing or not. Those are separate issues all together. Tom also had a corner on the military and law enforcement market for a time as well… but lost that too. But in honesty it was not because of anything he did or didn’t do, the competition just began to grab some of the market.

Again you show how HYPE can create the elusion without PROOF that one company did something the others didn’t. Thank you.

But if you can provide proof of anything you just posted, please do so. After all, isn’t that what Tom has chanted for years… post proof.

The thinking process that if companies don’t post what they do on internet forums or open to the public that it isn’t being done is laughable. But again, Tom has trained you well. More proof that Hype works.

ADDED:
My point is also that I don’t have to prove that any other company did do scientific testing. Those who say no others did are the ones who have to prove they didn’t. The burden of proof is on those who are making the claims, not those who doubt them. And in this case, the claim is that only Tom Kaye did scientific testing concerning paintball. Thus far NO proof has even been offered to support such claims, only statements showing Tom DID. There is a huge difference.

[Lohman446]

If TK is the only one to do testing and research these other companies got extremely lucky on stumbling onto the various systems we have now with no testing or research. Just think about it.

[SlartyBartFast]

If TK is the only one to do testing and research these other companies got extremely lucky on stumbling onto the various systems we have now with no testing or research. Just think about it.

SP and other: Spinning or otherwise stabilizing paintballs equals more accuracy.

TK: High speed photography and ball spun at 30,000rpm = no change in accuracy. Spurred the whole paintball spin dynamic thread and the link to vortex shedding.

Perfect Circle balls and the FN303 and associated ammunition.

Other companies tested, sure. Got to prove a product works. But I maintain: most tinkered.
AND, their R&D is product related. Not fundamental research.

Through history, some great engineering was accomplised by tinkering, I will admit. But lots of hype and misunderstanding about the way things work also led to much wasted time and effort.

The proof of Tom's fundamental research is avaialble. Where's the PROOF of other companies doing the same?

[shartley]

SP and other: Spinning or otherwise stabilizing paintballs equals more accuracy.

TK: High speed photography and ball spun at 30,000rpm = no change in accuracy. Spurred the whole paintball spin dynamic thread and the link to vortex shedding.

Perfect Circle balls and the FN303 and associated ammunition.

Other companies tested, sure. Got to prove a product works. But I maintain: most tinkered.
AND, their R&D is product related. Not fundamental research.

Through history, some great engineering was accomplised by tinkering, I will admit. But lots of hype and misunderstanding about the way things work also led to much wasted time and effort.

The proof of Tom's fundamental research is avaialble. Where's the PROOF of other companies doing the same?
Again, you miss the point. YOU have to prove they didn’t for your statements to be true. WE don’t have to show proof they did, or “defend” them against your claims. If this was the case, all anyone had to do is accuse someone of a crime and they are guilty unless they can “prove” they “didn’t” do it. The one who brings the claim must be the one to show proof, not the other way around.

The fact that Tom Kaye posted much of what he did is not proof the others didn’t do similar things because they didn’t post it publicly.

[Lohman446]

My point was not in the failures, but the successes. The spool valve without research? The MQ valve without research? The improvements that happen and succeed without research? That was the point, somewhere there must be some direction

[yakitori]

here we go again guys. :p

[shartley]

here we go again guys. :p
LOL I hope no one is getting upset about it though. I certainly am not.

Like they say…. If they are talking, you are on their mind.
;)

[hitech]

If TK is the only one to do testing and research these other companies got extremely lucky on stumbling onto the various systems we have now with no testing or research. Just think about it.


Trial and error works also. I'm completley sure that I would design and build a well functioning marker given the same resources "these other companies" have. And with no research. The only testing would be to fire it and see if it works.

[Lohman446]

Trial and error works also. I'm completley sure that I would design and build a well functioning marker given the same resources "these other companies" have. And with no research. The only testing would be to fire it and see if it works.


Isn't that research of its own? Maybe putting them to market and then seeing if they work was not good research... but I am sure that of the major companies at least one has scrapped at least one design somewhere... I would think... maybe

[hitech]

"Accurate Beyond Reason
The All-American has proven to be the most accurate barrel made, year after year after year. The accuracy is due to the original Smart Parts patent. Our spiral porting allows a paintball to regain its shape after the taxing initial sendoff a marker gives it when the trigger is pulled. Our stepped bore design also helps flight stability and assists in velocity consistency. Our famous honing process keeps the barrel super smooth and in perfect size for a paintball to have a perfect flight-right into the other guy’s face. We made it this way so that we could win as easily as possible. Stock marker barrels are disappointing at best, usually nothing more than an aluminum tube with threading at one end. We wanted a barrel that was so accurate it was almost unbelievable, almost unreasonable. Here it is. "

I believe there is one thing in all that crap that is true. Anyone else?

[yakitori]

I believe there is one thing in all that crap that is true. Anyone else?

Stock marker barrels are disappointing at best, usually nothing more than an aluminum tube with threading at one end

thats it. the only truth in the SP hype.

[Lohman446]

Paintball barrels in general are disappointing at best, usually nothing more than an aluminum tube with threading at one end

thats it. the only truth in the SP hype.

Edited for accuracy :D

But does proving they are good at hype disprove the idea that they do research? I don't think so

[shartley]

I believe there is one thing in all that crap that is true. Anyone else?This?
“We wanted a barrel that was so accurate it was almost unbelievable, almost unreasonable.”

:D

[yakitori]

Edited for accuracy :D

But does proving they are good at hype disprove the idea that they do research? I don't think so

I dunno, I wasnt trying to make that correlation, you did. I just copied the only accurate statement in their ad, since hitech said there was only one accurate statement. I went and found it.

:p

They may have done research, but does that mean they disclosed the ACTUAL results, or just selected what they wanted to make the product sell.

[shartley]

Stock marker barrels are disappointing at best, usually nothing more than an aluminum tube with threading at one end

thats it. the only truth in the SP hype.
I would not agree that that sentence is accurate either. I now of plenty of stock barrels that are far less than “disappointing at best”. Heck, the AGD stock barrel on my Mag (for one) is fantastic and shoots darts. I have not had to change it yet.

[yakitori]

thats why they didnt say... ALL stock marker barrels. By just saying stock marker barrels, it implies certain stock marker barrels.

[yakitori]

I would just like to point out that we are just having fun now, since the last 8 posts or so are only like one sentence long. Mostly they are joshy comments. Just something I noted. :D.

Kinda like this post by me. :cool:

[shartley]

thats why they didnt say... ALL stock marker barrels. By just saying stock marker barrels, it implies certain stock marker barrels.
I don’t think it implies “certain” stock barrels, I think it implies ALL stock barrels. After all, they are trying to sell you a replacement barrel. How better to do that than to make customers think the barrel that came with their marker is a bad barrel? And that is not certain markers with certain barrels, but them all.

At least that is how I see it. :)

ADDED: You typed fast... Yes, I am just having fun as well.

[yakitori]

could it be argued then that the end of their sentence says, a tube of aluminum w/ threading at one end, that it doesnt apply to the stock AGD barrel? Or was your stock barrel the one for the RT pro? If it is twistlock, that wouldnt have threads. :P. Im j/k dude.

[hitech]

"Our stepped bore design also... assists in velocity consistency."

I believe that this is actually true.



AGD: "Once in a while, there comes a product that revolutionizes the way the game is played. [LvL 10] Um...no I don't think it will
I think that it pushed others to develop a method to attempt to match level 10. Generally this has been accomplished via eyes in elecros, but I think that the level 10 greatly accelerated that process. And I know that the level 10 forever changed the way I play. ;)

[shartley]

"Our stepped bore design also... assists in velocity consistency."

I believe that this is actually true.



I think that it pushed others to develop a method to attempt to match level 10. Generally this has been accomplished via eyes in elecros, but I think that the level 10 greatly accelerated that process. And I know that the level 10 forever changed the way I play. ;)
Honestly, I don’t think the LX affected or motivated anyone to do anything. I don’t think the rest of the industry considered AGD anything to worry about. I will also suggest that other companies may have been working on similar things at the same time, but not influenced by AGD. It is a natural progression of technologies. And we even saw it with Spyder bolts designed to minimize chopping. Did THEY do it because AGD was a threat? LOL Not likely.

It was great that AGD did it, but let’s be totally honest about it. They did it to correct an issue their markers had, not simply to make their markers better. If their markers didn’t have the reputation of being blenders I doubt they would have bothered with the LX. But that is just my opinion.

[hitech]

Did THEY do it because AGD was a threat? LOL Not likely.


They didn't necessarily think of AGD as a threat. However, they didn't need to think of AGD as a threat to believe that they needed to come up with an anti-chop system. AGD making the level 10 for 'mags could have pushed (and I still believe did push) other companies into making their "systems". As long as you can point to numerous others that you are better than (with an important feature) your okay. When those you are pointing at are now better than you in regards to that feature, you have to change.

I don't think it is a coincidence that after the level 10 was released anti-chop systems became a must have feature. But we don't have to agree. ;)

[RRfireblade]

I don't think it is a coincidence that after the level 10 was released anti-chop systems became a must have feature. But we don't have to agree. ;)

Only if you somehow were to believe that the L10 came well before the BKO/B2K SP mod, Jam bolts, Electronic ACEs, Genesis Autococker system, etc,etc.

Which of course it didn't. ;)

[shartley]

Only if you somehow were to believe that the L10 came well before the BKO/B2K SP mod, Jam bolts, Electronic ACEs, Genesis Autococker system, etc,etc.

Which of course it didn't. ;)
What he said... ;)

But it's all good.

[hitech]

Only if you somehow were to believe that the L10 came well before the BKO/B2K SP mod, Jam bolts, Electronic ACEs, Genesis Autococker system, etc,etc.

Which of course it didn't. ;)

Other than ACEs, I have no idea when any of those came out. It also doesn’t matter. As I remember it, before level 10 markers in general suffered from paintball breakage issues. A while after it's release more and more markers began "showing up" with their own systems to alleviate breakage. The systems they used weren't necessarily new. Just that FAR less markers had them. Now lots of markers had them. And as I remember it the significant occurred shortly after the release of level 10. I believe it pushed manufactures to include their own anti-chop system in most of the markers they sold. :D

[shartley]

Other than ACEs, I have no idea when any of those came out. It also doesn’t matter. As I remember it, before level 10 markers in general suffered from paintball breakage issues. A while after it's release more and more markers began "showing up" with their own systems to alleviate breakage. The systems they used weren't necessarily new. Just that FAR less markers had them. Now lots of markers had them. And as I remember it the significant occurred shortly after the release of level 10. I believe it pushed manufactures to include their own anti-chop system in most of the markers they sold. :D
Cause and affect, or simple coincidence? I say coincidence.

You even admit that you have no idea when any of those came out. I suggest that you may have simply became aware of others in the industry doing things because AGD was also doing them and assigned the reason the others were doing it as being forced to keep up with AGD, the company you support. This however, might not actually be the truth of the matter.

But I do understand the reasons why you may think the way you do. But to say it does not matter is not quite true. It DOES matter when the other companies actually came out with those things, and even more so when they began designing them. What does not really matter is the perception of how you recall things being released to the public. I don’t mean this in a bad way, or as an insult. I am just trying to point out that how we perceive the development of things, or the reasons why they were developed is not what makes things the way they actually were. What matters is what really happened; ie. when companies actually began developing things and why, as well as when they were released to the general public.

Sometimes folks can be so close to AGD that they fail to see the rest of the paintball industry. And natural progression of products are not necessarily caused by what another company may have been doing at the very same time. I will also point out that just because company A puts out something before company B does, it does not mean company A began developing it first, nor that company B did so in response to company A.

[RRfireblade]

Other than ACEs, I have no idea when any of those came out. It also doesn’t matter. As I remember it, before level 10 markers in general suffered from paintball breakage issues. A while after it's release more and more markers began "showing up" with their own systems to alleviate breakage. The systems they used weren't necessarily new. Just that FAR less markers had them. Now lots of markers had them. And as I remember it the significant occurred shortly after the release of level 10. I believe it pushed manufactures to include their own anti-chop system in most of the markers they sold. :D

Or....

Was AGD just following everyone 'elses' lead on anti-chop systems since until then, they had none at all while more than just a few other manufactureres already had them or had them in the works. ;)


It also doesn’t matter

I do aggree on that. Just playin'.

[KRAKMT]

A hype that i have never forgotten was from angel- it was on their website around 1998-99ish. They claimed that the Angel was a closed bolt. I emailed them and asked them how so and they said it was because of superior circuit timing.
People have mentioned a fine line companies walk- over-the-top claims may alienate as many people as attract
K

[ApexAZ]

This is a quote from another Ion vs. Mag thread which I believe outlines what hype is nicely:


MAgs.

Top 10 reasons why YOU should have an RT Pro Automag.


1. 26 balls per second, without shoot down. 34+capable.

2. Very lightweight. A full ULE setup weighs in at under 2.7 pounds.

3. Very good looking.

4. Single tube design.

5. Rugged Design. Submerge it in water, shake it around, pull it out, and FIRE!

6. Impossible to chop (if not tuned right)

7. Unique mechanisms known only to AGD (LX antichop bolt for example).

8. AGD and its dealers has some of the best customer support (aka no business nazis).

9. Mechanical marker that reach speeds of reason 1.

10. You can be unique. Get off the bandwagon, and GET A MAG NOW!


I think the ion has like 2 or 3 of those.

How many people actually consistantly achieve 25+ bps with their mech mags? See, to me this is misleading. Sure, the gun can reach those speeds. How easily though? You'd have to fan and even then, how easy is it to reach 25 bps? How easy is it to maintain any accuracy while fanning at those speeds? Hell, even electro's can't reach those speeds w/out ramping.

Impossible to chop. Hmm. I haven't chopped yet, but I know people who have had their mags for years and known them to chop occasionally. You can't really do anything about super brittle paint at times. I understand what he is saying, but impossible means impossible.

Anyways, don't get me wrong, I like automags a lot. I just thought this presented a good example of hype :)

[ApexAZ]

AGD isnt misleading. Here is how they advertise it:



This isnt hype. This is AGD advertising their recharge rate, which in turn allows for the possibility of 26 bps without shootdown(and they even go so far as to explicity state "faster than anyone can pull the trigger!)

If it doesnt recharge fast enough, it doesnt matter how many shots per second can be achieved.

Yes, but see how this person misconstrued it? Perhaps because he read that little recharge rate factoid and all he saw was 26 bps... He then turns around and makes it seem like you can shoot it at 26+ bps.

Hype isn't only present in advertising. It's also propelled by word of mouth.

[Lohman446]

AGD isnt misleading. Here is how they advertise it:



This isnt hype. This is AGD advertising their recharge rate, which in turn allows for the possibility of 26 bps without shootdown(and they even go so far as to explicity state "faster than anyone can pull the trigger!)

If it doesnt recharge fast enough, it doesnt matter how many shots per second can be achieved.


You are right that it is not explicity misleading, as compared to say a SP ad. However, it is designed to get people to think of 26BPS and to spin "hype" off of that. Maybe not designed.. perhaps its unintentional, but it does have that result.