Aluminum Classic valve???

[peewee]

Okay here we go... We know they can make valves out of aluminum the X proved that. I have been wondering if AGD will start to produce an aluminum classic style valve. The price of steel has got to be killing them. Its killing us at my work. Zupe ?? got anything in the works?? Anyone else have any input?

[Head knight of Ni]

Uh, to my knowledge production of the classic valve stopped.

[Vex]

What would be the point of making the Classic valve, even out of aluminum?
The X-Valve was made as an improvement to the Classic.

[Conversekidz]

it would be nice to be able to use CO2 again

[Target Practice]

Psst...

There's a reason why the X-valves are inherently less consistent than the old ones.

I'll give you three guesses, but you should only need one. Okay, you'll probably need all three.

[Vex]

Psst...

There's a reason why the X-valves are inherently less consistent than the old ones.

I'll give you three guesses, but you should only need one. Okay, you'll probably need all three.
Let's see: Because you could run over the Classic valve with a Sherman tank and then use it in the next game without skipping a beat? :eek:

[shartley]

it would be nice to be able to use CO2 againThis is one of the things I feel has hurt AGD, the requirement to run HPA. But from what I understand you can make your X-Vales accept CO2 with some slight changes… it has been talked about here on the forums before. I will let AGD Tech’s field that issue……

[Chronobreak]

This is one of the things I feel has hurt AGD, the requirement to run HPA. But from what I understand you can make your X-Vales accept CO2 with some slight changes… it has been talked about here on the forums before. I will let AGD Tech’s field that issue……

theoreticaly as long as you can keep the pressure 600+ and liquid out of the gun you should be fine....

target, becasue theyr alum? ive heard that theory before but im afraid it doesnt ring true, atleast not a noticeable diff.

all my mags ss/or alum valves have been the same consistency., i can see how runing co2 in an ss valve could make a diff though..but nitro... :confused:

and agd doesnt want classics out anymore, theyr just not that great comapred to the x-vavles which im sure would cost about the same $ to make, leaving little markup room for agd..

[Mer]

Have they suddenly stopped the Pro Classic?

http://store.airgun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=448&categoryID=102

That's a classic stainless valve in current production.

[BobDoleIsMyHero]

From what I have gathered from other posts on this forum, the classic valves in the pro classic are not in production currently, they are left-overs that AGD wants to get rid of.

[shartley]

theoreticaly as long as you can keep the pressure 600+ and liquid out of the gun you should be fine....

And it has been done. But if you read AGD’s own site, as well as all the materials they put out for their Retro and newer valves, it specifically states they are to ONLY be used with HPA. There is, of course, a reason for this.

But like I said, there is a modification that can be made to the valves which will allow CO2 to be used just like any other CO2 capable marker.

[slade]

theres already been threads on this, an aluminum classic valve would cost as much to produce as an xvalve, and there really is no demand for aluminum classic valves, they wouldnt sell at all. think about it, if you have the options for a $60 valve that weighs quite a bit, the same valve but lighter for $300, or a newer, improved, lighter valve that costs $300 but cant take co2, how many people would drop $300 for a lighter version of the outdated valve? if youve got $300 to drop anyway, buy nitro, a fair tank would cost half of that.

[shartley]

theres already been threads on this, an aluminum classic valve would cost as much to produce as an xvalve, and there really is no demand for aluminum classic valves, they wouldnt sell at all. think about it, if you have the options for a $60 valve that weighs quite a bit, the same valve but lighter for $300, or a newer, improved, lighter valve that costs $300 but cant take co2, how many people would drop $300 for a lighter version of the outdated valve? if youve got $300 to drop anyway, buy nitro, a fair tank would cost half of that.
Buying an HPA tank did not take care of the issue. For me it is not a mater or how much things cost, but the ability to use EITHER without having to modify the marker or worry that it might not work. This is not an issue of demand, it is an issue of the horse AGD hooked its cart up to. And that is a horse that no other marker manufacturer wanted to restrict their markers with…. For good reason.

You are correct though, that there is no demand for a classic valve made out of aluminum. It simply isn’t worth doing. However, a new valve that can take both HPA and CO2 with NO alterations (as in just hook EITHER up and go play) would in my opinion be something worth looking into. And it would help AGD a great deal.

[bleachit]

However, a new valve that can take both HPA and CO2 with NO alterations (as in just hook EITHER up and go play) would in my opinion be something worth looking into. And it would help AGD a great deal.


that would be great..but how likely is the release of a valve like that?

[warbeak2099]

The hurricane classic valve was aluminum. Try and find one of those in b/s/t

[Nobody077]

How many users of high-end markers still use Co2? If you want to use Co2 get yourself a spyder, or a old Tippy Pro-light(it runs best on liquid) or a classic SS valved Mag. I personaly dont know anyone that can outshoot a classic valve and if you say you can prove it, I have done 15bps on Co2 with a classic valve and Autoresponce frame with only a 20fps drop and most people have never seen a Autoresponce fram yet alon own one so there not going to see over 10bps no matter how fast they think they are.

No matter what type of valve system you use if your useing Co2 and shooting fast you will freeze the valve, I have played with a battery powered baby bottel warmer taped to a cocker so I could shoot Co2 without freezeing it up(in mid 70 deg Ca weather) If you want Co2 you still have your choices, bottom line is a aluminum classic wont make the money that the X-valve does so why bother its just not the way to do buisness, and why design a new valve for a old technology its like wanting to building a steam powered Indy car :confused:

[shartley]

How many users of high-end markers still use Co2? If you want to use Co2 get yourself a spyder, or a old Tippy Pro-light(it runs best on liquid) or a classic SS valved Mag. I personaly dont know anyone that can outshoot a classic valve and if you say you can prove it, I have done 15bps on Co2 with a classic valve and Autoresponce frame with only a 20fps drop and most people have never seen a Autoresponce fram yet alon own one so there not going to see over 10bps no matter how fast they think they are.

No matter what type of valve system you use if your useing Co2 and shooting fast you will freeze the valve, I have played with a battery powered baby bottel warmer taped to a cocker so I could shoot Co2 without freezeing it up(in mid 70 deg Ca weather) If you want Co2 you still have your choices, bottom line is a aluminum classic wont make the money that the X-valve does so why bother its just not the way to do buisness, and why design a new valve for a old technology its like wanting to building a steam powered Indy car :confused:
I would argue that not everyone who uses a “high end” marker uses HPA. This is a common misconception for the Magazine reading crowd, or online forums folks. CO2 is used for a wide range of markers on the fields across the nation. And contrary to popular belief, AGD is not in the running for “high end” markers. They have switched gears to cater to the Scenario and Rec. markets.

Also, just because you run CO2 it does not mean you will freeze the valve when shooting fast. Those who shoot fast (yes even with “low end” markers) know that to avoid that you must let the gas expand before it reaches the valve. Running a good expansion chamber setup or a remote will take care of most of these issues (and yes you can still shoot fast using a remote… LOL). And they really have nothing to do with whether the valve can use HPA and CO2 or not. This is a different issue all together.

So by having a valve that can use BOTH, you don’t LOSE anything, but instead you GAIN something. :)

[peewee]

I believe that remaking the classic valve out of aluminum could act as a cost saving for an entry level marker. With the continual increase in the price of steel. This combined with some type of new extruded or composite body . We all know the level X valve is better than the classic for recharge etc. But Personally I cant outshoot a classic valve & I dont believe many rec ballers can. With doing this it opens up a whole flavor of the month aspect that kingman has banked on for years. A bling bling annodized mag for $200 or less to increase sales in the entry level sector. People keep whining about when agd is going to come out with some new gun. At my work we are asked to have an out line for cost savings measurments when we come up with a new design, be it a change in material type or thickness. The big wigs always want to look at ways to cut cost & increase the bank roll.

[Banshee23]

I believe that remaking the classic valve out of aluminum could act as a cost saving for an entry level marker.

This would be true if AGD was actively making new SS classic valves. But, as it was mention earlier in this thread, it is believed that AGD isn't making anymore new classic valves. These are just leftover existing stock. So I would say the chances of seeing an aluminum classic are slim at best.

[Lohman446]

I believe that remaking the classic valve out of aluminum could act as a cost saving for an entry level marker.

However, making an aluminum classic valve is no cheaper (or minimally so) than making an X-valve. Well it would be nice to have a not $300 valve to offer and as such "justify" a cheaper marker, the cost savings to AGD would not make up for the lower price, there would just be less markup with a "cheaper" valve being the reason. That being said I'm not necesarrily against it but I beleive the answer, assuming the current trend of mechanical markers with no further advancements and nothing new, is ultimately going to be another price drop on them to make them competetive. Face it, strengths and weaknesses taken into consideration it becomes hard to sell a $450 mechanical marker with things like the Ion around $280

[NoForts4Me]

Face it, strengths and weaknesses taken into consideration it becomes hard to sell a $450 mechanical marker with things like the Ion around $280 Yeah, I think Glenn Palmer is having a tough time too because of the IONs. And so is CCI. Those Phantoms are so slow and don't have eyes :rolleyes: .

Seriously, different strokes. It's all a preference thing. However, I do agree with Shartley...I have kept my Classic because I do not have access to N2 or compressed air, so I can't shoot a X-Valve. Many people don't live in a big city with access to air, so I think that may have hurt Mag sales.

[Nobody077]

I would argue that not everyone who uses a “high end” marker uses HPA. This is a common misconception for the Magazine reading crowd, or online forums folks. CO2 is used for a wide range of markers on the fields across the nation. And contrary to popular belief, AGD is not in the running for “high end” markers. They have switched gears to cater to the Scenario and Rec. markets.

Also, just because you run CO2 it does not mean you will freeze the valve when shooting fast. Those who shoot fast (yes even with “low end” markers) know that to avoid that you must let the gas expand before it reaches the valve. Running a good expansion chamber setup or a remote will take care of most of these issues (and yes you can still shoot fast using a remote… LOL). And they really have nothing to do with whether the valve can use HPA and CO2 or not. This is a different issue all together.

So by having a valve that can use BOTH, you don’t LOSE anything, but instead you GAIN something. :)

Not realy shure about your idea of a "High End" Marker but would a E-Mag or X-mag not be on the list? Or in order to be a High end marker does it require a skimpy dressed blond holding the gun in a photo shoot? If so then your correct AGD woulden be in the running. I look at high end as high performance, reliabilty and trust, But then that kinda only leaves AGD so go figure. And as for the Magazine reading, online, misinformed bunch.... LOL how many years experance do you have in the real world of paintball? I for one have been playing for over 10 years, I have seen so many new fads come and go and have heard it all when it comes to hype, I have only purchased 2 paintball magazines in this time, I have played with Co2 and froze valves when running a 5ft remote and a X-chamber on more than 1 gun. What is your real life experance with paintball, No not counting haveing your first gun given to you from AGD for building a website, but true on the field experance, helping people fix there markers on the field in the dirt, tuneing guns in the parking lot and truely seeing the sport go through its good and bad days?

You cant alwase have everything you want, there is a reason the valves are designed for HPA and not Co2, shure you could run a X-valve on Co2 if you meet your requirements but can get the Co2 to recharge the valve quick enough? How do you expect to keep the tank pressure up to the required point, heat the tank? because you should know the tank gets chilled when the Co2 changes from liquid to a gas thus causeing the tank pressure to drop

[slade]

Or in order to be a High end marker does it require a skimpy dressed blond holding the gun in a photo shoot?
nope, course not. look at keely watson, shes not blonde :D. sorry just had to say it.

and yes e/xmags are high end, but they arent in production anymore. and yes unfortunately as shartley said AGD is not producing "high end" markers anymore (high end as in fast tourney electros). AGD is making scenario/woodsball markers now, and the only high end mags in production now are the devilmags. the mq and pneumag will also be "high end" tourney markers when they come out.

[Lohman446]

Yeah, I think Glenn Palmer is having a tough time too because of the IONs. And so is CCI. Those Phantoms are so slow and don't have eyes :rolleyes: .

Seriously, different strokes. It's all a preference thing. However, I do agree with Shartley...I have kept my Classic because I do not have access to N2 or compressed air, so I can't shoot a X-Valve. Many people don't live in a big city with access to air, so I think that may have hurt Mag sales.


But... are we discussing AGD continueing as a mainstream company (which has seemed rather doomed to failure - outside opinion, uneducated) or as a niche company (such as Palmers, etc.) As a niche company I think AGD could survive very well... maybe thats what they are doing anyways.

But your right too.. I was working off an assumption not stated - that being AGD continuing as a mainstream company.

[peewee]

Everyone is assuming that AGD isnt making any more SS valves. I am also not sure that the production cost between a SS valve & aluminum would be +/- $240. The X is an entirely different monster. I would also expect longer tool life etc with working with aluminum.

[NoForts4Me]

But... are we discussing AGD continueing as a mainstream company (which has seemed rather doomed to failure - outside opinion, uneducated) or as a niche company (such as Palmers, etc.) As a niche company I think AGD could survive very well... maybe thats what they are doing anyways.

But your right too.. I was working off an assumption not stated - that being AGD continuing as a mainstream company.Well, I guess I am assuming that AGD is already a niche company, or is moving that way. They could have stayed "mainstream" in many people's eyes if they had licensed either an electronic or pneumatic trigger. But they didn't, and are apparently focusing on the mech side (assuming they are focusing on something). This isn't necessarily a bad thing...many niche companies (paintball or other) do quite well, if they can define and market to their niche.

[shartley]

nope, course not. look at keely watson, shes not blonde :D. sorry just had to say it.

and yes e/xmags are high end, but they arent in production anymore. and yes unfortunately as shartley said AGD is not producing "high end" markers anymore (high end as in fast tourney electros). AGD is making scenario/woodsball markers now, and the only high end mags in production now are the devilmags. the mq and pneumag will also be "high end" tourney markers when they come out.
Exactly...

Everyone is assuming that AGD isnt making any more SS valves. I am also not sure that the production cost between a SS valve & aluminum would be +/- $240. The X is an entirely different monster. I would also expect longer tool life etc with working with aluminum.
It isn’t too much too assume. Anyone who has followed AGD and their progress knows the deal. They also know that they virtually ignored the RTPro when they started pushing the E-series markers. SOME of us openly told them time and again that we felt that was a HUGE mistake. We saw that they were losing ground in the “tourney” market they seemed to want to compete in, and that other companies were simply outselling and out “visually” designing them.

But what have they had to fall back on? The RT Pro with a new body… the TAC-ONE.

So to assume they are not making any more SS valves since they tooled up for aluminum valves (which worked in BOTH the RTPro and E-series markers) would not be much of a leap. The SS classic valves are clearly left over stock that they are using to help them stay afloat. And isn’t it odd that they didn’t come out with this earlier, but chose to just focus on ONE area. Putting all your eggs in one basket can often be a huge mistake, as was the case with AGD. Thankfully for them they HAD unsold valves sitting around. I honestly don’t think they went out and made MORE just to sell a lower level marker.

[bleachit]

I have done 15bps on Co2 with a classic valve and Autoresponce frame with only a 20fps drop and most people have never seen a Autoresponce fram yet alon own one so there not going to see over 10bps no matter how fast they think they are.


I just got an autoresponse frame, actually, on my classic mag. I'm curious as to how long you could fire continuously without freezing the valve.

[Nobody077]

I just got an autoresponse frame, actually, on my classic mag. I'm curious as to how long you could fire continuously without freezing the valve.

I have done about 5 sec strings at that rate on a realy warm day, but as you know that frame has a realy strong trigger pull so my finger got realy tired. The valve hadent frozen but was very very cold to the touch, with condensation forming on the out side of the valve and tank, this was with the bottle vertical under the frame so there was no chance of liquid entering the gun