When is enough enough

[Lohman446]

The question started on the other thread, and I am going to use the quote feature to paraphrase bound for glory. I think he unintentionally and unfairly grouped the problems to the tourney scene (the thread encouraged this grouping), but the base thought was still the same, has intrigued me for a couple days, and still to me poses an interesting question


Paintball is a wink and nod kind of game. cheater boards and ramps are commonplace in both the woods and the speedball fields, and products that obviously are intended to get maximum rate of fire are found everywhere (rebound, Tippman RT) . i don't know many reasons for having to mark some poor sap 10-15 times unless that guy won't call out. answer me this: when is enough, enough?

I did respond, and this was what I thought.


We've already crossed the line. With the sudden allowance of markers that are clearly in violation of ASTM standards (without any scientific evidence ot prove there safety) we have crossed the line. We have gone from things that we had scientific approval of the "safety" of to something that we think (and hope) is safe. Have there been accidents yet? No there have not, at least not enough to create an uproar. Might it be safe? It might very well be safe. Do we have any indication that would help us in court if it proves its not? Nope...

We crossed the line when we allowed cheating with minor penalties. Blatant wiping does not get one suspended, shooting hot and velocity cheats which may result in an unsafe playing field are treated with a slap on the wrist.

We crossed the line a long time ago, enough was enough a long time ago. And yet we, and I include myself in that, I do play competetively, still push blindly forward and just pray that our total lack of control does not catch up to us.

I love the game.. I love the people I know from it... its a part of my life. I love it despite the overshooting, the cheating, and the attitudes. As has been stated before, if I was not already into it would I still like it? Its hard to say... I wonder if those who are new can enjoy the game in their innocence, certainly it must be a shock to play with the standards we have learned to accept today. I worry about that acceptance, both in how new players are treated, and in the legal and moral ramifications of them.

I have answered why I still play. In an era where safety and legal (see this thread for my thoughts on that http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=167377&highlight=criminal+negligence) ramifications are ignored why do we still play, why do we continue seemingly unconcerned or simply ignoring the consequences? How many of us truly beleive that it is not just a matter of time before serious injuries become common? Are we convinced, that just because we think it is probably safe it is ok? The only scientific based published standards we have indicate that we are outside of what is known safe - we hope what we are doing is safe, but what do we base it on? It may very well be safe, I am just noting that we have not studied it well. I beleive that it is inevitable before our inability to "control" ourselves has ramifactions, I still play, I love the game. Why do you still play? What do you think?

[Jeffy-CanCon]

I still play because I have a good group of friends who want to play the safe and fun game that I learned to love.

90% of the time I put on my mask, I don't have to worry that some jerk I don't know is going to dump 30 balls on my head at 300fps. The other 10% of my play-days are big games, and it really makes little difference when you are being shot at by 10-20 people anyway. Who can tell if one of those 20 has a jacked-up ROF?

[Lohman446]

I always told myself when velocity cheats become common I would quit.... and yet I hear more and more about them, I am nearly certain at any tournament I go to at least one person will be using one, and yet I still play.

[CrimsonGhost]

To me Wiping and ramping DO NOT go in the same class of cheat.

Wiping is dishonest and not in the SPIRIT of the game...but its not realy a safety issue.

RAMPING (all kinds) and such ARE a SAFETY issue.

15 bps rule was a good stutter step in the right direction but...it needed to be backed with TEETH to punish violations.
And a REAL way to test the boards...ALL OF THEM before the games start.

I think both of you have expressed your ideas well.

But ...it doesnt seem that ANYONE that makes the rules is hearing you,us,we...whatever

Is it ruining the sport?

No, ...not yet anyway.
We will eventualy see "restrictor plate" boards (NASCAR refference :dance: ) but ...not just yet.

Yes ...unfortunatly a person HAS TO GET HURT before REAL change happens.

Sad ...but usualy the case :cheers:

[danheneise]

i only play walk on at the local field, and sometimes play speedball with fellow AO'ers. I do believe that tourny paintball has gone way to far, when a marker company clearly puts in, and admits they put in a cheating device into their guns and nothing is done about it, or when we can clearly see people shooting way faster than they should be allowed too, something has gone wrong, and I think you pretty much summed everythin up pretty well in your post. This falls back to why I feel of why it's never shown much on TV. I just the other day saw another incident on the news with a paintball shooting, and just they way the news lady said it, made it sound so horrible like with a sigh before "paintball gun" I find it interesting how while listening to the news, a normal gun sounds better than a paintball gun. This goes back to how paintball is portrayed to the public and then goes back to your first post in this thread. All the public sees when they might first see a paintball game is either a bunch of guys in the bushes playing war, or a bunch of guys shooting fast and yelling at each other. Visually I think there has been a loss of teamwork being shown and honestly I think that is usually any sports strong side. You watch most other sports and you will probably see some form of teamwork, but if you look at paintball, most teams practice their game before a game, almost like a routine, and it seems like that they just go into a game knowing what they need to do and never have any real team doing anything together, no remember this is most likely what the public probably sees. I know that there is teamwork but just believe theres probably better ways of showing it or something .... i dunno, never mind.... There has been a few shows on that do very good at explaining what is going on in the game, and making it look very competative and like it has quite a bit of teamwork, since they're describing what is going on. Also on OLN lately there has been PB2X which is good at showing all the different things that are in paintball, in depth stuff on guns, and other equipments, always making sure to use safety first, and showing both sides of the game, tourny and rec ball.

Things to make this sport probably a little safer would be better regulation mainly on speed, I actually clapped at the thought of the 15bps rule but now it looks like that hit the fan. Also to totally ban any form of special fireing modes like ramping, multi shot bursts etc. Now don't start having a fit about 15 bps, remember guys, that's more than most can shoot anyways, and you only need one shot to take someone out.

[BeaverEater]

at my local field ramping is becoming common place. I dont feel that i should have to cheat to stay competive just yet, but it becomes harder to play everyday. I think that there should be an all mech tourny and maybe even pump tournies. Around here there is none of that, and no interest except for a very few number or people.

[bound for glory]

well, as i've already said in a pm to my friend lohman, i did'nt mean to attack the tourny players. but i refuse to forget what i already know. i know the whole speed ball thing pushs faster firing guns. like it or not, there it is. i'm 37. i played my first game in 1985. i did some tournys in the woods back in the day. i'm not some pbnation kid with a 1500$ rig mommy bought me. i've been around. i think my perspective on our game is valid. and what i see is guys who don't care who they hurt. i see people who are old enough to know better going to games like the recent emr castle and ripping on under gunned newbs. i have seen players clearly call out and still get a few extra for no reason. funny to some, right? makes me sick. but what do i know? i'm a scout leader and i'm getting tired of explaining to parents that the idiots in the tourny pics.(we've all seen um, the ones where some fake tough guy is showing off his welts) are just morons and no, your kid won't come home like that(i hope). back in the day, it was everybody thrashin togeather and having a good time, regardless of what kind of gun you shot. now today, people are pushing for faster and faster guns. for what? how many times do you have to hit someone? :nono:

[TheTramp]

These days I mostly play scenarios and with that type of play it's not really much of an issue. One of the things that makes a player "good" or "expereanced" is his (or her) trigger control. Then there's also the fact that the ranges are generally much longer so even if someone shoots 30 balls at you there's very little chance of too many of them hitting you.

When I play rec it's at a relativly small field with a lot of regulars. We haven't really had much trouble with over shooting. Anything other than true semi is not allowed but there isn't a lot of time spent on checking unless it's very obvious that someone's cheating. I don't see saftey really becoming an issue there.

To be honest, I don't really care too much about the behavior of people in the higher levels of the tournament scene. I'm almost at the point where where I say you have to blast them 15 times just to get enough paint on them so they can't wipe it all off.

[Lohman446]

well, as i've already said in a pm to my friend lohman, i did'nt mean to attack the tourny players. but i refuse to forget what i already know. i know the whole speed ball thing pushs faster firing guns. like it or not, there it is. i'm 37.

Well I agree that it is pushed in speedball I do not beleive that woodsball is immune to it. The Tippman RT is certainly not targeted towards the speedball player for instance. And I realize that your attack was not on any individual player... but more on the apathy that has allowed what we have today.

[TheTramp]

Well I agree that it is pushed in speedball I do not beleive that woodsball is immune to it. The Tippman RT is certainly not targeted towards the speedball player for instance.


When was the last time you were dangerously over shot by a Tippman RT? I can't say that I have been. I have been spanked by close in shots from electros durring speedball.

[Lohman446]

When was the last time you were dangerously over shot by a Tippman RT? I can't say that I have been. I have been spanked by close in shots from electros durring speedball.

Good point... I have been but it was because I was fooling around and trying to take on large groups alone in a scenario game. Its a good point. Maybe all the problems are on the tourney players (you know I don't beleive that). FYI - I play most any form of paintball there is.

[TheTramp]

Maybe all the problems are on the tourney players (you know I don't beleive that).

I don't agree with it either but I will say that almost all the problems center around the "want-to-be" tourney kids. In fact while I've been shot out a lot more by real tourney players, I've been shot a lot more by the kids with all the tourney gear who have never really competed.

[sbpyro]

I don't agree with it either but I will say that almost all the problems center around the "want-to-be" tourney kids. In fact while I've been shot out a lot more by real tourney players, I've been shot a lot more by the kids with all the tourney gear who have never really competed.

Unfortunately it is the wannabes that will overshoot. They watch a speedball game and see all the paint flying and do not understand the point of fire and manuever in speedball. I've seen good players with pumps do better than some of these wannabes with their high end electros in games (woodsball). I personally play in tourneys (will not devote the time needed) but I have friends who play in tourneys and they still have a better attitude towards the situation. When they go play rec with me, the respect the rules of rec play.
The wannabes who play rec, they drive me up the wall. Wiping, bunkering, and blindfiring in rec games are inexcusable. When I go out to play and a newbie gets me I tell them it was a good shot and walk away. I was playing in a scenario game 2 weekends ago and was in a big firefight with a couple of ppl and when finally one of them got me I yelled, "great shot".
One of them yelled back yeah you better know to call yourself out!!. Then my teammate who was about 10 yards away from me got flanked, he tried to move, called him self out from a couple of shots, and then tripped got lit up by the same group of idiots playing. I ran to his defense screaming,"that he is out stop shooting". I heard at least 5 more shots before they finally stopped. That is the attitude that will give paintball a bad name. I group those type of ( I hesitate to use the term) players with people who use their guns to take pop shots at people, signs, cars and etc in the same category. Detrimental to the sport.

[can'tthink of1]

When PRO teams are willing to risk getting DQ'd from a tourny for an illegal marker, thats when I just said "wow." Think about that, a Pro team, with members that most people look up to, and have tons of skill, still will risk it to even place well. Hell, at that level, you'd think most of them would have the basic ability to walk the trigger semi-fast, and not need some ramping or bouncing marker, I mean c'mon.

I'm really worried about where paintball is going. As the speeds increase, the movement decreases. Humans can only move so fast. I mean, look at videos of recent tournies. Almost every team will be playing defensively, and seeing a man make it to even the 40 is amazing. To me, paintball like that isn't fun. I think people have more fun just shooting their marker at moving targets than they do actually playing. To some, they wouldn't care if they didn't move all game and wend through 4 pods to get one guy out. I mean, that just seems really lazy. People have sacraficed making paintball games interesting, for winning.

The recent theme of paintball has been winning > all and people are willing to do anything to anything to win really. Wiping is so common now in tournies it basically considered normal, and it seems to roll over into even rec.

[tony3]

I play a lot of tournies and have a blast doing so. Cheating is a common place. I have seen people I know with velocity cheats, allen keys in gloves to change velocity and everything else you could think of. There is a well known cheat going around pbn and the such called the 418 mod, basically allowing you to fire your gun on the pull and release. I tried to see how easy this is. It was very very easy. I had it setup with a reed switch so I could turn 2 shots per pull on and off with a magnet in my glove. This is how simple it is to cheat for the common player.

I have been overshot numerous times to the point where it was more then accidental, most so far has been 17 broken shots on my body, no idea how many bounced. This I felt was crazy and so did the ref and pulled the player. It is going way to far and this is coming from a very serious tourney player. I wouldn't be mad at a 10 bps cap with ramping. I think that would be really fun to play. Less about laning, more about moving. For big leagues like psp it would be so simple to stop ramping and cheating. If we catch your gun ramping, you are ban for 6 tournies and that carries into following seasons if needed, plus your team is kicked out of the tourney. Nppl has the right idea DQing teams caught ramping. Place stricter rules and you will see it go down. Instead of stricter rules and a solution psp gave in. I am still going to play psp though just because of xball. I dunno, we need an actual serious governing body to do something or a 3rd party to step in, ATSM anyone?

[AGD202]

getting overshot is fun a lot of times.... and i dont know bout all of you, but the people i play with have gotten way past the pain stage of paintball... we hardly feel getting hit anymore

[TheTramp]

getting overshot is fun a lot of times....

Tell that to the new kid just starting out. I bet he wont agree.

[yakitori]

I dont think having fast guns means ppl are over shooting. ALL guns have a trigger. The user behind it is the one that makes the decision to dump it or not to dump it. Ive been overshot more times than I can count on both hands by some jerk at a woodsball field dressed up all milsim and must have had an attitude cause I was wearing a jersey. I shot him twice, he turns around and lights me up in the back like 15 times. He was using a tippmann a5 w/o an RT. And he was using CO2, which I think his velocity had spiked majorly. That was the second time that day the same arse pumped a bunch of paint on me, so I turned back on him and dumped about 15 on him. He approaches me and kinda pushes me a bit and talks crap to me.

My point is. It doesnt matter how many bps is coming at you. Nobody is going to be "hurt" by 6 balls. If they do, they need to quit the sport.

Thats my take on it.

I also dont appreciate the 1500 dollar gun that mommy bought them comment. Ive worked and earned and spent every bit of my OWN money on my equipment. I did get graduation gifts when I graduated college (which tuition I earned on MY own, no grants, just scholarships and paychecks and my own studying), and that money was put into my fund. I work a full time job, and I have a baby on the way. I am only 25, and I play fair. PPl like the guy above (that overshot me at the field) tend to see what gun I shoot, see my attire, and either get jealous or just turn straight arsehole, because they seem to be the ones I have probs w/. That doesnt make sense to me cause I tone my game down A LOT at the rec field, yet I get pummeled by some dweeb in military attire. Its very annoying. I dont see paintball as a War game, and I dont pretend that my gun is "real". I dont overshoot ppl at the field, and I play fair. I expect the same courtesy back, but dont always get it. Its usually THESE type of ppl that complain about fast guns.

Get over it. Play the game or quit the game.

Fast guns dont spoil the game, jerks do. PPL choose how much paint they want to shoot at you, regardless of mech semi or electric.

[Lohman446]

I also dont appreciate the 1500 dollar gun that mommy bought them comment. Ive worked and earned and spent every bit of my OWN money on my equipment. I did get graduation gifts when I graduated college (which tuition I earned on MY own, no grants, just scholarships and paychecks and my own studying), and that money was put into my fund.


Little defensive are we? :D I don't see anyone really complainging about any gun ... just the apathy that is going to get someone hurt. We disregard our own safety standards on a whim

[nippinout]

Getting paint on someone is the point of the game.

Wiping is not cheating? It isn't cheating until you get caught?

Eliminating the other team is the entire point of paintball!

[nippinout]

On a related note, maybe wiping and playing on is expected in so called 'professional' play.

But in recreational play, there is no need to play with cheater boards or wiping.

[tony3]

I dont think having fast guns means ppl are over shooting. ALL guns have a trigger. The user behind it is the one that makes the decision to dump it or not to dump it. Ive been overshot more times than I can count on both hands by some jerk at a woodsball field dressed up all milsim and must have had an attitude cause I was wearing a jersey. I shot him twice, he turns around and lights me up in the back like 15 times. He was using a tippmann a5 w/o an RT. And he was using CO2, which I think his velocity had spiked majorly. That was the second time that day the same arse pumped a bunch of paint on me, so I turned back on him and dumped about 15 on him. He approaches me and kinda pushes me a bit and talks crap to me.

My point is. It doesnt matter how many bps is coming at you. Nobody is going to be "hurt" by 6 balls. If they do, they need to quit the sport.

Thats my take on it.

I also dont appreciate the 1500 dollar gun that mommy bought them comment. Ive worked and earned and spent every bit of my OWN money on my equipment. I did get graduation gifts when I graduated college (which tuition I earned on MY own, no grants, just scholarships and paychecks and my own studying), and that money was put into my fund. I work a full time job, and I have a baby on the way. I am only 25, and I play fair. PPl like the guy above (that overshot me at the field) tend to see what gun I shoot, see my attire, and either get jealous or just turn straight arsehole, because they seem to be the ones I have probs w/. That doesnt make sense to me cause I tone my game down A LOT at the rec field, yet I get pummeled by some dweeb in military attire. Its very annoying. I dont see paintball as a War game, and I dont pretend that my gun is "real". I dont overshoot ppl at the field, and I play fair. I expect the same courtesy back, but dont always get it. Its usually THESE type of ppl that complain about fast guns.

Get over it. Play the game or quit the game.

Fast guns dont spoil the game, jerks do. PPL choose how much paint they want to shoot at you, regardless of mech semi or electric.

Nice post. :headbang: <--I hate that smiley but only thing that is worthwhile to put in the situation.

[ColdFuzion]

Wiping and playing on is just plain rude.

However, with a 15 BPS cap, I have no problem with a ramped gun, as long as velocity stays safe. I have been lit a few times in ramp tourney's, and I have done my fair share of glocking with a ramped Ripper II Timmy... It's fine in tourneys, I think. But for practice, what's the point? I feel the same way about bunkering; in the woods, you play surrender, in big speedball games or tourneys, you play bunker, but for practice, what's the point? You know he's out, why put a teammate through about 5 close shots? I just call my teammates when I walk up on them in tourney practice.

-Cold

[punkncat]

I just wonder how long you will beat this dead dog about "safety standards".

I understand where you are coming from. I respect the wisdom in seeing the problem for what it is. I actually agree with you. Markers have gotten too fast. The problem is that its what sells. Its what "most" people want, or at least say they want.

I see it as the impending death of the sport. New players go to the field and absolutely get mowed. It has made the first game a dreadful experiance rather than the fun, challenging thing that it was a few years back where SKILL truly mattered most. Not how much money you have for paint.

Do you think paint manufacturers and field and shop owners mind high ROF?
What about gun manufacturers who can make a "new" marker that is supposedly faster than gun X by a tiny bit and sell them like hotcakes?

I mean really noone can honestly shoot faster than the loader will work. Whats a Victory boarded Halo running nowdays? Maybe 25BPS or so?

But aside from my agreement and others, and the continued debate about this subject...how much longer are you going to lobby this? Do you feel that you are making an effect on the sport by griping about this constantly? Have you changed anyones mind by constantly bringing this up?

I would be willing to bet no.

Lobby this stuff at a local field. Lobby it at a tourney.

The 15BPS cap used by "some" leagues is a step in the right direction. Hopefully local fields institute a cap or at least divisional play. Let those who want to "cheat" mow each other. I will hop in with my mech mag and play right along. Aint Skeered.

...quit beating the poor dead dog...

This post was not meant to tick you off. But as you said in your title...enough IS enough. REALLY be proactive and go play stock class or pump.

[can'tthink of1]

My point is. It doesnt matter how many bps is coming at you. Nobody is going to be "hurt" by 6 balls. If they do, they need to quit the sport.

Thats my take on it.

Get over it. Play the game or quit the game.

Fast guns dont spoil the game, jerks do. PPL choose how much paint they want to shoot at you, regardless of mech semi or electric.

I kinda agree with you. But I do have safefty concerns. People like to just openly rail on their markers, and while 6 balls may not hurt you, I have others in mind when playing like the new players playing too. Then there is also more gross overshooting than 6 balls, it gets up to 10+ and I will start getting pissed. I agree its the user, but how much they do shoot does matter, cause know what, its coming at me, and I frankly don't want to be overshoot just because some kid thought his marker ramping up and maxxing his halo is cool. I do agree that is ultimately the user, but fast makers can ruin the game imo, but it does go back to the user, cause they set it to be fast. I don't complain about getting hit a few times, I complain about gross overshooting.

[Lohman446]

Its not just fast guns doing it, nor is it new. Remember that guy across the field in woodsball tournaments you needed to hit. Theres a reason your beavertail is on your autocockers. Anyone ever shake a CO2 bottle to get liquid to the gun to make it shoot further?

Let me tell you a story. I was at a tournament one day last year and the cheating was rampant. It started with the scheduling (some teams in the bracket getting a bye worth 100pts others getting games) and went from there. I watched refs wipe players... I watched refs birddog for players (intentionally). I watched one team "jump" the start by a good two seconds with no penalties.

I complained there, loudly and often... the general consensus is that I left the property before the promoter asked me to. The scarey thing is, I went to the same place again, I shut my mouth, and I played the same game they did... I went back, despite what I witnessed.

Its not that cheating can be stopped fully, its the apathy that has come. We play tournaments where we know people will cheat against us. We play where we know people will cheat in a way to make the environment of quesitonable safety. And yet we play. I was at a field one day when a team hung a flag on us... my backplayer looked at him and said "look, theres a team that cheats"... the man just turned around and walked away. It was true, we all knew it, and we all knew we knew it. I played against one team late in the day that had changed jerseys before we played them... to match our paint. I dumped pods and borrowed from another team to make this not work. I still played. I have called cheaters for what they are, to there face, and at home fields. It doesn't matter, people around me seem to not care. I have told people that I was going to cheat in a game... did anyone care? The PSP sets rules that allow, even encourage enhanced firing modes. Firing modes that they cannot point to us the scientific data that says they are safe. Noone cares. Its apathy, we accept cheating. Why? Can we stop all of it? Not a chance. Could we stop a lot of it that occurs today if we truly wanted to? Yep. So why don't we? Why do we continue to play with refs, players, and promotors that cheat?

[etjoyride]

I dont think having fast guns means ppl are over shooting. ALL guns have a trigger. The user behind it is the one that makes the decision to dump it or not to dump it. Ive been overshot more times than I can count on both hands by some jerk at a woodsball field dressed up all milsim and must have had an attitude cause I was wearing a jersey. I shot him twice, he turns around and lights me up in the back like 15 times. He was using a tippmann a5 w/o an RT. And he was using CO2, which I think his velocity had spiked majorly. That was the second time that day the same arse pumped a bunch of paint on me, so I turned back on him and dumped about 15 on him. He approaches me and kinda pushes me a bit and talks crap to me.

My point is. It doesnt matter how many bps is coming at you. Nobody is going to be "hurt" by 6 balls. If they do, they need to quit the sport.

Thats my take on it.

I also dont appreciate the 1500 dollar gun that mommy bought them comment. Ive worked and earned and spent every bit of my OWN money on my equipment. I did get graduation gifts when I graduated college (which tuition I earned on MY own, no grants, just scholarships and paychecks and my own studying), and that money was put into my fund. I work a full time job, and I have a baby on the way. I am only 25, and I play fair. PPl like the guy above (that overshot me at the field) tend to see what gun I shoot, see my attire, and either get jealous or just turn straight arsehole, because they seem to be the ones I have probs w/. That doesnt make sense to me cause I tone my game down A LOT at the rec field, yet I get pummeled by some dweeb in military attire. Its very annoying. I dont see paintball as a War game, and I dont pretend that my gun is "real". I dont overshoot ppl at the field, and I play fair. I expect the same courtesy back, but dont always get it. Its usually THESE type of ppl that complain about fast guns.

Get over it. Play the game or quit the game.

Fast guns dont spoil the game, jerks do. PPL choose how much paint they want to shoot at you, regardless of mech semi or electric.

this post is pretty close to the truth, except for that there are some people out there (not me) who have worked hard to get their gun(s) and just ramp or bonus ball because the enjoy making other people on the field (especially in rec) feel bad.

[GT]

When is enough enough

when we stop buying it....

[Toxic Dave]

when we stop buying it....

QFT!!

Manufacturers will stop making stuff when there isn't an overwhelming market for the product. Convincing people that they don't want machineguns is something that is tough to do though.

I keep reading about velocity cheats and how apparently they are running rampant in the tournament scene. This is weird to me since I spent the last 2 years as a factory gun tech and coach of a d1 X Ball team at PSP events and never saw or heard a substantiated incedent of it, much less saw it in person. I know there was some serious finger pointing at one team, but nothing anybody could prove, etc.

dave

[CoolHand]

I'll tell you why I still play:

Paintball is fun. The fun I get out of the game greatly outweighs any risks of injury or damage that I may incurr. That is a choice every person must make for themselves. If they are a minor, its a choice the parents must make, and live with.

On a related note:

Why are we as a country so obsessed with removing 100% of the risk from everything? Why is it that people think that an activity should not take place if there is the risk that someone may get hurt?

I see paintball through the glass of someone who has done other exponentually more dangerous things, and quite frankly, the chicken littles of the sport tear me up (that would be redneck for "they make me laugh very hard").

I handle high explosives on a weekly basis, and I have raced (and wrecked) more cars than most people will own in their lives, and I have been in coal mines where the roof is literally falling down around your ears. Any of these actitivies holds the possiblility of death, in very short order, if any number of things goes wrong or you make a mistake. Paintball is safe, and no matter how you cheat (short of shooting solid heavy rounds, say ball bearings) you are not going to kill anyone (unless you are trying to). And really, the worst damage you are likely to every sustain is a detached retena, or a broken ankle.

Bottom line? This game ain't about life and death. What few risks there are, can be easily and totally mitigated by a simple precaution or two (like wearing your damned mask, and adjusting the headband correctly).

AND, god forbid something does go awry, the end of the game (and safety) is just a few shouts and scant seconds away.

Three to ten seconds of mild danger, if ever. That's what I would call a safe sport (or certainly an acceptable risk IMO). Hell, you can burn to death in a race car in about 30 sec, and there ain't no time outs to be called on that one. You either get out on your own, or hope the track crew gets you out, or you die.

That's the biggest thing I see in paintball, that if played correctly, there is near zero risk. Only when something goes wrong is there any danger at all. In a race car, if you are at speed (and even sometimes if you aren't), you are in danger. Its a very stark contrast.

Maybe its just because I have carried over the awareness and attention to detail of being in the pits at a race, or being on a shot, but it seems to me to be a fairly easy thing to keep yourself out of danger when your mask is off (like don't look down the barrel of a marker with air on it). Seems simple enough to me, you just gotta pay attention.

What irritates me the most, is places that harp on one thing, and then neglect everything else. I went to a field, who did not allow you to cycle your marker in the pits, period. No matter if the barrel bag is on it, and there isn't a hopper there (which is fine, if they would have told us up front, no one is psychic). They chased me down and griped at me for timing my cocker (with the bolt upside down even), with a bag on it, and no hopper. While all day long, they let markers lay around, full of paint, with air on them, with no barrel bags at all. Never said a word about that. That seems to be missing the forest for the trees, at least to me.

I guess what I am trying to say, is that if you don't find the risk acceptable, do not play. Its not like anyone is forcing you to play paintball. Participation is not mandatory.

Like I said up top, I find the risk to rewards ratio to be more than acceptable.

[nippinout]

CoolHand, what is most bothersome to me is sportsmanship.

There should be no need to bonus-ball, wipe, or ramp in rec-ball. There is no money or prize on the line.

[CoolHand]

CoolHand, what is most bothersome to me is sportsmanship.

There should be no need to bonus-ball, wipe, or ramp in rec-ball. There is no money or prize on the line.

Now, that I totally agree with.

We usually take care of it sorta George Carlin vigilante style. (IE we ridicule them and generally make them miserable until they leave or start playing fair).

In recball there is no reason to cheat, or be a bad sport at all. I also don't think that a tournament is a good enough reason to cheat or be a poor sport either (once again, its not life or death). I still don't think it should happen, but more for honor than for fear of a breech of safety.

That is the one ironclad rule for my house team. I don't meddle with their affairs, other than to suggest the occasional switch of equipment (when I need to test something for a while), and to assure that they are good sports/honest players. Past that they do what they like.

I always watch any new guys like a hawk when they try out, because I just won't stand for any folks of questionable morals on a team I support. I'd rather they go a whole season and not win a single game, and do it honestly, than win everything they touch and be known cheaters.

[yakitori]

that still has nothing to do w/ the fact that they allow ramping guns. The whole argument was that ramping guns/ more than 15bps is too much and "unsafe" I totally disagree w/ that statement. That was the whole point of the discussion.

It still comes down the the Person behind the trigger. Just cause your gun is capable of 15 bps easily doenst mean that you are a bonus baller. Ive said it once and Ill say it again. You can bonus ball ppl w/ a mech semi. You can do it w/ a tippmann, a rental, or a stingray.

The gun is not responsible for overshooting.

[Lohman446]

that still has nothing to do w/ the fact that they allow ramping guns. The whole argument was that ramping guns/ more than 15bps is too much and "unsafe" I totally disagree w/ that statement. That was the whole point of the discussion.

I think you have simplified things far to much. It was an oversimplification that I encouraged in this thread through a failure to articulate what I actually meant. Let me try again. Ramping markers, velocity cheats, cheating in its various forms on the field, yelling at refs, yelling at other players, overshooting, the need to "mow" new players are all examples of a culture. Its a culture that was almost encouraged by players, sponsors, and tournament promotors. I did drum on the fact that we have gotten into a situation that we hope is safe rather than one that we have scientific evidence to indicate it is safe (ASTM Standards) but that is just a symptom of the cause. I've seen situations nearly escalate to physical violence on more than one occassion - both in the woods and on the speedball field, both playing recreationally and at more serious events (scenarios, tournaments, what have you).

What has happened that we let it get this far, when do we as players say that this attitude around paintball is enough? I've competed in martial arts, undoubtedly an adrenaline filled sport - I have never seen attitudes get to this level. Why do they in paintball? Why do we sit back and let it happen? When will we as players say enough is enough?

[yakitori]

I think you have simplified things far to much. It was an oversimplification that I encouraged in this thread through a failure to articulate what I actually meant. Let me try again. Ramping markers, velocity cheats, cheating in its various forms on the field, yelling at refs, yelling at other players, overshooting, the need to "mow" new players are all examples of a culture. Its a culture that was almost encouraged by players, sponsors, and tournament promotors. I did drum on the fact that we have gotten into a situation that we hope is safe rather than one that we have scientific evidence to indicate it is safe (ASTM Standards) but that is just a symptom of the cause. I've seen situations nearly escalate to physical violence on more than one occassion - both in the woods and on the speedball field, both playing recreationally and at more serious events (scenarios, tournaments, what have you).

What has happened that we let it get this far, when do we as players say that this attitude around paintball is enough? I've competed in martial arts, undoubtedly an adrenaline filled sport - I have never seen attitudes get to this level. Why do they in paintball? Why do we sit back and let it happen? When will we as players say enough is enough?

what do you expect? an honor system in paintball? Ppl cant even do that in the adult world. Its like driving in rush hour traffic. It a car they are cutting off, not a person behind the wheel. So, stop whining.

That is an aspect of the game that ppl overlook too. Whiners. They are as bad as wipers to me. Dont like it dont play. Nobody is forcing you to step onto the field w/ someone that plays tourneys. You do it because that is how we compete at that level. If you cant take it w/o crying about it, then you arent tough enough.

Paintballs dont hurt all that much. If you think they do, buy a chest protector and a headshield mask.

Yelling at the refs is not good, and corrective action should be taken for that.

Im not oversimplifying, you are nitpicking and presenting an argument from a whiners point of view.

Its not paintball man, its AMERICAN ATTITUDE. Its that way in every facet of society. There are a select few group of ppl that do the right things cause they know its right. Everyone else doesnt care.

[Lohman446]

That is an aspect of the game that ppl overlook too. Whiners. They are as bad as wipers to me. Dont like it dont play. Nobody is forcing you to step onto the field w/ someone that plays tourneys. You do it because that is how we compete at that level. If you cant take it w/o crying about it, then you arent tough enough.


This is the point... I have accepted it is part of the game and I play anyways. So do a lot of other people accept a lot of stuff that goes with paintball... why? Not you're a whiner, buckle down and get over it... I'm over it. I still call it as I see it, but I'm over really caring, I decided I liked the game that much. But why do we accept it? I have never had anybody that I have flat out told they cheated on the field tell me I was a whiner and to get over it. It happens often enough on the boards... are we trying to hide it? Just because I accept something does not mean I have to like it.


Edit:
Lets not let this turn into people thinking i have a better than you attitude. Things straight up. I have cheated on the field, I have intentionally played on, I have slide in to make sure there was not a hit on one side, I have wiped hits. I have gone on field with borderline marker set ups. I have intimidated refs. I have encouraged refs to make bad calls.

The fact that cheating happens is not what I am looking for. THe people I play with know me, I have flat out admitted cheating to them... I make no attempt to hide it. I don't do it in rec play, I play very calmly and very much differnetly in rec play then in tournaments. It is just as wrong. I know all the justifications for it, its still wrong. My question is not why cheat? or even what can be done about cheating? But why do we so readily accept it. Some of our most well known players are well known because they blatantly cheat. I likely cheat because I can cheat at tournaments, acknowledge it, and I don't loose anything in reputation from anyone. I'm sure I just took a hit on this board, but this board is not the normal "group" of players. Its the only place it seems that admitting I cheat at tournaments is going to harm my reputations. The rec players I play with don't care, they know I don't cheat against them. Why.. why do we nto care that people cheat at tournaments? We only seem to care if it affects our game against them...

[hitech]

I guess what I am trying to say, is that if you don't find the risk acceptable, do not play. Its not like anyone is forcing you to play paintball. Participation is not mandatory.


I'm getting tired of people telling me if I don't like it I don't have to play. Well, I don't like it, I'm going to continue playing and I'm going to continue complaining about it.

You CAN be injured with multiple rapid shots to the same spot. I've seen it happen, and it was with a pump. I can't imagine the same incident with a ramping "fullauto". So it is a safety issue. I still consider it an acceptable risk. However, if every player on the field had a ramping marker I might change my mind. Don't know yet, it hasn't happened to me.

Ramping markers are "cheats". Just because a few tournie circuits decided to allow cheats doesn't change them from being cheats. Can't catch 'em, just allow it in the rules. How absurd is that?

To answer the original question, when is enough enough? Now. We have passed that point. Being overshot in rec play is ridiculous. I have played since 1986 and had NEVER been overshot (including tournaments) until a few years ago. There is no excuse for overshooting. But some kids today think it's "fun". Absurd.

_______________________________________________
<img src="http://www.synreal.net/sig/hitech.gif">

Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD <img src=http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/4161d9d6_207d/bc/Hosting/smiley_mini102.gif?CCCglmBB7Iu5tWX9>
Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
The only Hitech Lubricant (http://www.kercon.com)

[shartley]

I'm getting tired of people telling me if I don't like it I don't have to play. Well, I don't like it, I'm going to continue playing and I'm going to continue complaining about it.

You CAN be injured with multiple rapid shots to the same spot. I've seen it happen, and it was with a pump. I can't imagine the same incident with a ramping "fullauto". So it is a safety issue. I still consider it an acceptable risk. However, if every player on the field had a ramping marker I might change my mind. Don't know yet, it hasn't happened to me.

Ramping markers are "cheats". Just because a few tournie circuits decided to allow cheats doesn't change them from being cheats. Can't catch 'em, just allow it in the rules. How absurd is that?

To answer the original question, when is enough enough? Now. We have passed that point. Being overshot in rec play is ridiculous. I have played since 1986 and had NEVER been overshot (including tournaments) until a few years ago. There is no excuse for overshooting. But some kids today think it's "fun". Absurd.
I agree.

[hitech]

But why do we so readily accept it (cheating).

I don't. It's what keeps me from any interest in tournaments. It has caused me to not play at fields. I don't readily accept it.

[Lohman446]

I don't. It's what keeps me from any interest in tournaments. It has caused me to not play at fields. I don't readily accept it.


You have the answer for you, and its an ideal answer. I have left tournaments swearing I would never go back to a particular field, and found myself two months later playing there because some friends asked me to, in another tournament. Perhaps a lack of will power.... Why do you think that so many people seem to so readily accept it?

[yakitori]

This is the point... I have accepted it is part of the game and I play anyways. So do a lot of other people accept a lot of stuff that goes with paintball... why? Not you're a whiner, buckle down and get over it... I'm over it. I still call it as I see it, but I'm over really caring, I decided I liked the game that much. But why do we accept it? I have never had anybody that I have flat out told they cheated on the field tell me I was a whiner and to get over it. It happens often enough on the boards... are we trying to hide it? Just because I accept something does not mean I have to like it.


Edit:
Lets not let this turn into people thinking i have a better than you attitude. Things straight up. I have cheated on the field, I have intentionally played on, I have slide in to make sure there was not a hit on one side, I have wiped hits. I have gone on field with borderline marker set ups. I have intimidated refs. I have encouraged refs to make bad calls.

The fact that cheating happens is not what I am looking for. THe people I play with know me, I have flat out admitted cheating to them... I make no attempt to hide it. It is just as wrong. I know all the justifications for it, its still wrong. My question is not why cheat? or even what can be done about cheating? But why do we so readily accept it. Some of our most well known players are well known because they blatantly cheat.

Well. I dont wipe. I dont play on. I have mouthed refs for bad calls. I have bonus balled. I dont start physical confrontations at the field.

Im telling you. Its the American attitude. For example. A jr. high school near my home I see kids walking home in "clicks" They pick up stuff off the sidewalk and throw it in the street for cars to run over, just for fun? Why? Is it because its fun, vandalistic, getting away w/ something w/o punishment? Who knows. I do know that it happens in other countries though, but Americans tend to bend/break the rules of society, just because they can. They get a kick out of it.

Thats my experience anyway. Did I do dumb things when I was young? Sure I did.

If there is no real penalty other than a slap on the wrist, ppl will continue to cheat. They have accepted it in the sport because it is far too common.

Hell, if there was a simple solution or answer, we wouldnt be discussing it. It just exist, AND I learn to play w/ it, and deal w/ it. Americans are competative by nature.

It happens in ALL sports though, not just paintball. Boxing, Hockey, Football, Basketball, Baseball, volleyball,,,,,you name it, its been done.

[yakitori]

I think its more accepted becuase when good ppl that dont cheat play w/ cheaters, they find themselves is a position to cheat just to compete. That shouldnt be the case. What should happen is that cheating should be pointed out, call the ppl cheaters to their face. Make it obvious what they are doing to the refs, and the crowd. Everyone else will see it, and the cheaters will be labeled cheaters, instead of "man hes good" It will be "ya, he cheats" and it will be frowned upon by others.

everytime you go to the field, say "hey, hows it goin cheater boy" Or "did you learn any new cheating moves lately?" something to that effect. If they physically attack you, kick them in the balls, and then press charges on them for assult.

:D.

[Lohman446]

I played in a local tournament the other day with some outside refs brought in. The first game I got pulled for playing on with an obvious hit. I tried to explain to the ref that it wasn't obvious, because if I had known it was there I would have wiped it off... He pointed out the rule, that if iti was not to the back of my pack it was obvious. I watched another one of my players take a hit, continue shooting before getting to his bunker and looking. We took another penalty. I tried to complain to the ref, he just finished his move and then checked, pretty acceptable in most tournaments - he sited to me "the rules say if you are hit you may go to the nearest bunker, without shooting, and check yourself" I was annoyed. I considered it coming off the field and tried to think of what to say to the promotor... the best I could come up with is "those refs are enforcing the rules too well". I decided then that I really had no problem with these refs and kept my mouth shut. I listened to complaints for a week about these refs, and all day at the field... the tournament players were genuinely upset that they could not get away wtih cheating...

What does that say about today's tournament world? Just thought I would share.

[Lohman446]

I think its more accepted becuase when good ppl that dont cheat play w/ cheaters, they find themselves is a position to cheat just to compete. That shouldnt be the case. What should happen is that cheating should be pointed out, call the ppl cheaters to their face. Make it obvious what they are doing to the refs, and the crowd. Everyone else will see it, and the cheaters will be labeled cheaters, instead of "man hes good" It will be "ya, he cheats" and it will be frowned upon by others.


I don't see it happening though when you call someone a cheater. I did this repeatedly at one tournament - end result I would have been asked to leave had I not left when I did - I was basically told this by someone who was doing me a favor by letting me leave before a "situation" was created. I had the support of a few people, but I had the disdain of many. Look how it goes here, I have already heard something to the effect of thats how it is, if you don't like it don't play - but don't complain about it, people who "whine" about cheating are worse than the cheaters. Not my view, but do you see it expressed repeatedly in this thread?

[SlartyBartFast]

I'm getting tired of people telling me if I don't like it I don't have to play. Well, I don't like it, I'm going to continue playing and I'm going to continue complaining about it.

QFT.

Those that don't like following the rules and play straight up ball should be the ones told not to play. :mad:

[Lohman446]

QFT.

Those that don't like following the rules and play straight up ball should be the ones told not to play. :mad:


Which comes back to the original point of the thread. Why aren't they? Why do we accept the cheating, and the cheaters? Worse yet, why do we glamorize it, and them, and endorse it through various justifications of why cheating is not wrong?

[SlartyBartFast]

Im telling you. Its the American attitude. For example. A jr. high school near my home I see kids walking home in "clicks" They pick up stuff off the sidewalk and throw it in the street for cars to run over, just for fun? Why? Is it because its fun, vandalistic, getting away w/ something w/o punishment? Who knows. I do know that it happens in other countries though, but Americans tend to bend/break the rules of society, just because they can.

Well that attitude is pathetic. Acceptance of that attitude is worse than pathetic.

By your backwards logic and labelling, I'd be whining if I complained about those punks and I should be the one to move out of town if I don't like it.

Well guess what. It's the punks that need whipped into shape and made to respect the rules. Not the law abiding citizens who have to "stop whining" and "learn to live with it".

Either the police (the refs and organisers) start doing something about it, or an angry mob just might take things into their own hands.

I hate the idea, but it may be high time for losing teams to start suing tournaments for a refund of their fees when they're dissatisfied. All you need to do is film enough cheating to indicate the winners shouldn't have and that the organisers and staff didn't do enough to enforce the rules.

Everybody off to small claims.....

[KRAKMT]

Just in regards to ramping and marker safety:
Enough will be enough when a promising young college kid looses an eye- or better yet 2 eyes. Lets say the marker had an aftermarket board. How will you defend the board manufacturer, the marker manufacturer, the goggle manufacturer or the field. It won’t be decided based on science or fact. Someone is going to win a very large amount of money and you will see some change.
I even know which newly retired industry personality the plaintiff will probably contact as an expert.

How much will it cost: last month I heard a local verdict of 3 million for a woman (she dreamt of being a lawyer) that was injured in a car accident- that was just her expected loss of income –add longterm health care and add attorney fees to defend the issue and to point the finger at the other guy. Poor field owner- will be really shocked when his insurance company refuses to indemnify because of the policies “no-coverage for full auto paintball marker clause.

Coolhand- I agree whole heartedly, we cannot wrap the world in bubblewrap. And I think because of the mentality we have a world of virtual videoized life experiences. But the question was when is enough enough or inpart unsafe – I think we will find out.

[yakitori]

I played in a local tournament the other day with some outside refs brought in. The first game I got pulled for playing on with an obvious hit. I tried to explain to the ref that it wasn't obvious, because if I had known it was there I would have wiped it off... He pointed out the rule, that if iti was not to the back of my pack it was obvious. I watched another one of my players take a hit, continue shooting before getting to his bunker and looking. We took another penalty. I tried to complain to the ref, he just finished his move and then checked, pretty acceptable in most tournaments - he sited to me "the rules say if you are hit you may go to the nearest bunker, without shooting, and check yourself" I was annoyed. I considered it coming off the field and tried to think of what to say to the promotor... the best I could come up with is "those refs are enforcing the rules too well". I decided then that I really had no problem with these refs and kept my mouth shut. I listened to complaints for a week about these refs, and all day at the field... the tournament players were genuinely upset that they could not get away wtih cheating...

What does that say about today's tournament world? Just thought I would share.

I am glad I dont play where you do. Here, cheaters get bonus balled majorly. If they whine about it, they get told where to go.

[Lohman446]

I think.. at some point we all step back and say "how in the world did we get to where we are" the answer is we never drew a line that "enough is enough" This is not a whiners point of view.. maybe it is. Its presented for a serious discussion on where we are. Do was have enough time to say enough is enough or are we now in the point of looking at each other and going, hmm how'd we get here? You want to label it as whining thats fine.. its a point of view, and I was looking for other points of view when I started this thread.

[LudavicoSoldier]

All I ask is that tourny players leave their attitude and brash playing style on the tourny field, with people of like mind. There is no place in recball for tourny attitude. It is simply not needed or wanted. Its the "go hard or go home" mentality that is really hurting paintball. If you cant tone it down and play for fun, then dont play recball.

[CrimsonGhost]

Meh, I have to disagree Luda, a bit anyway.

I agree that the tour attitude on REC fields is not a good thing.

You should be able to know the difference between Rec and Tour when you walk onto a field.
If its REC , You play rec style.REC rules, No ramps,No "Extra Love" off the field, No 12 round bursts into the back of the head on a bunker run, and No arguing with the REFS about who shot who or what first.

I dont think the attitude and style of tour players is hurting the GAME , I think the fact that tour players CANT/WONT turn this way of thinking/playing OFF when they get onto a REC field is the issue.

I play both styles and I know how I should behave and play when Im playing rec.
People just need to be AWARE of what they are doing and where they are..and act accordingly.

We are blessed and cursed to have 3 distinct forms of this sport.
But we need to be aware that each has its own rules and styles and certain aspects of each do not always translate to the other styles ( I reffer to REC, Scenario, Tour...not to the many subcultures of each)...Lol, though it would be funny to see a Scenario player dressed in arena gear playing the "sniper" position yelling out " Your gone you FLARGING PIECE OF SCHNITT!!! GET OFF MY FIELD!!!" Every time he made an elimination.lol

:cheers:

[CoolHand]

I'm getting tired of people telling me if I don't like it I don't have to play. Well, I don't like it, I'm going to continue playing and I'm going to continue complaining about it.

You CAN be injured with multiple rapid shots to the same spot. I've seen it happen, and it was with a pump. I can't imagine the same incident with a ramping "fullauto". So it is a safety issue. I still consider it an acceptable risk. However, if every player on the field had a ramping marker I might change my mind. Don't know yet, it hasn't happened to me.

Ramping markers are "cheats". Just because a few tournie circuits decided to allow cheats doesn't change them from being cheats. Can't catch 'em, just allow it in the rules. How absurd is that?

To answer the original question, when is enough enough? Now. We have passed that point. Being overshot in rec play is ridiculous. I have played since 1986 and had NEVER been overshot (including tournaments) until a few years ago. There is no excuse for overshooting. But some kids today think it's "fun". Absurd.

Whoa there chief. You missed my point entirely.

I'm not saying that cheating is OK, though I do find it a bit narrow minded to say that people who play under PSP/NXL rules are cheaters. They are playing to the rules as their series has them forth. Nothing more. Now, if you use an NXL board at a local field that doesn't allow it, that's a different story.

Its like I told a fellow at the race track, who complained that the open modified class was too fast. I told him, if you don't want to go fast, don't run in the open division. Go build a hobby stock. Speed, expense, and danger are all inheirent to run-what-ya-brung racing. You either deal with it, or drop down a class.

Same is true of paintball. If you don't want to play against ramping markers, don't go play where they are allowed. Go play stock class, or mech only, or whatever you want.

Notice that no where in there did I say that cheating was OK. Cheating is not OK. When we see it, I and my house team's captain raise three kinds of hell, and usually at least the refs to pay attention. When I hosted a tourney, we sent a lot of angry ballers to the dead box for penalties, because my refs were good, and did their jobs like they should have. The major difference is, that its nearly impossible to cheat in the open class, because almost everything is allowed. If you don't like the rules, go play someplace that you do like the rules.

I have played with rampers, and honestly, I couldn't tell the difference ROF wise. Hell, we were even allowing FA for a few games. It just didn't make the differece that most of us thought it would. Ramping ROF is the paintball version of running soaked tires. Everyone thinks it happens a lot, and that it gives a huge advantage, but in reality, just a few people actually do it, and even fewer actually gain anything from it. Since we ran open comp, I went ahead and built a soaking rack, and soaked our tires (it was legal). Guess what? They were only about 0.1 seconds faster per lap, and that fell way off after the first two or three green flag laps. It just didn't make enough difference to justify the time spent on it, so we stopped doing it. Same thing with all the hysteria over ramping ROF. Ask Manike one day to show you the goggle testing he did to disprove the "masks won't take it" defence.

I have been "lit-up" on several occasions, just last week I took eight (8) shots to the back of the head, because I was stupid and walked out into an active lane when I was shot out. My fault, and I suffered no damage. Been shot in the ear from about a foot away, no damage incurred. Been shot in the chest, arm, leg, insert body part here, from point blank range, multipble times, no damage incurred.

Worst damage I have ever suffered from a paintball game, is a bruised knee cap from kneeling on a sharp rock in the woods, and maybe a really bad sliding rash or two.

This game is just not as dangerous as most people (players) make it out to be. Try a for-real dangerous sport once, and when you come back, you will realize what I am talking about.

BTW, I like the references in red up there in your quote. Somehow the two just don't seem related in my mind . . . . . . .

[LudavicoSoldier]

I dont think the attitude and style of tour players is hurting the GAME , I think the fact that tour players CANT/WONT turn this way of thinking/playing OFF when they get onto a REC field is the issue.


Thats what I was trying to say. There is nothing wrong with tourny style, as long as it stays where it belongs. I play rec only, and I personally do not appreciate people who can't tone down the tourny style when they are on the rec field. There is no glory to be had in waxing people who are out to have a good time, and are not in it for the glory/points/whatever, IMHO

[hitech]

If you don't want to play against ramping markers, don't go play where they are allowed.
Well, everywhere I play they are not allowed. I still end up playing against them anyway. That is the problem. I don't have any choice. The local fields can't/don't enforce the rule against them. Since PSP/NXL have allowed them they are very easy to get. Anyone who wants one can get one. Possibly at ZERO cost (my buddy had one of his board's software upgraded at no cost). If I had enough choices, I wouldn't complain, much. ;)


I have played with rampers, and honestly, I couldn't tell the difference ROF wise.
I have to admit to that also. That is another reason I continue to play. However, I wonder what it would be like if EVERYONE on the opposing team had a ramping marker. Would that make enough difference?


I have been "lit-up" on several occasions, just last week I took eight (8) shots to the back of the head...Been shot in the chest, arm, leg, insert body part here, from point blank range, multiple times, no damage incurred.
And I have seen someone get a concussion (couldn't stand upunaided for 12 hours or so) from multiple hits to the head from a foot or so away. I took multiple hits just after he fell to the ground and I was fine. I was a few feet farther away and hit in a different place. I believe the same thing has happened to someone in a tournament from a "bouncing" marker. While it may be unlikely, it can certainly happen.


This game is just not as dangerous as most people (players) make it out to be.
I agree there. It's just that the rewards don't make up for the risk. The ONLY reason ramping markers are allowed anywhere is because no one has been able to enforce the rules against it. And to me, that is pathetic. :(



BTW, I like the references in red up there in your quote. Somehow the two just don't seem related in my mind . . . . . . .
:p We could fire a lot faster with a pump than anyone today would give us credit for. :headbang:

:cheers:

[Lohman446]

I don't beleive that the next game I play there is going to be an injury in, I don't beleive that I am going to be injured or cause an injury. So if it sounds like that was what I meant, then I have misstated myself. That being said I beleive that it is only a matter of time before someone is seriously injured in paintball... perhaps high BPS will contribute to it, perhaps velcotiy cheats, perhaps any number of things. More likely I expect it will be the apathy concerning high pressure vessels and there care. I think its a matter of time, and I think then many people will wonder why we never said enough is enough? I am not calling for change... I don't know what the answer is. I simply wonder why it seems that noone cares. Noone seems to care about safety issues... and noone seems to care about cheating (which may have nothing to do with cheating). Why do we not care?

[hitech]

I hate the idea, but it may be high time for losing teams to start suing tournaments for a refund of their fees when they're dissatisfied.

Actually, I'm surprised it hasn't happened. Bob Long actually considered it once. It wasn't for cheating on the field. He thought a buddy of mine and myself were not allowed to ref the finals because we wouldn't have allowed what he suspected. He changed his mind when we told him that our flights had not allowed us to ref the finals.

It has been considered. And it wasn't small claims court either. The amount of money exceeded $10K. :wow:

[hitech]

I listened to complaints for a week about these refs, and all day at the field... the tournament players were genuinely upset that they could not get away wtih cheating...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[hitech]

Why do you think that so many people seem to so readily accept it?


I have played with rampers, and honestly, I couldn't tell the difference ROF wise.

That is the real answer. It just hasn't affected enough people enough. It is a "slow" progression, and most people just become acclimated to the change over time.

:cheers:

[shartley]

ROF issues? Too much paint, way too fast?

LPPC!
http://www.shartleycustoms.com/lppc.html

There are plenty of folks who subscribe to “less is more” when it comes to paintball. You just have to know where to look. ;)

[wimag]

I think.. at some point we all step back and say "how in the world did we get to where we are" the answer is we never drew a line that "enough is enough" This is not a whiners point of view.. maybe it is. Its presented for a serious discussion on where we are. Do was have enough time to say enough is enough or are we now in the point of looking at each other and going, hmm how'd we get here? You want to label it as whining thats fine.. its a point of view, and I was looking for other points of view when I started this thread.

we got where we are due to people like yourself. the line is there somewhere but most people on this board wont say it so I will.
You suck dude. You openly admit you cheat, your team mates cheat but yet you justify it.
Wow your on a team of cheaters, good for you, nice reputation to have.
Why should you care about rate of fire your gonna wipe, rub it ro slide it off anyways.

[Lohman446]

we got where we are due to people like yourself. the line is there somewhere but most people on this board wont say it so I will.
You suck dude. You openly admit you cheat, your team mates cheat but yet you justify it.
Wow your on a team of cheaters, good for you, nice reputation to have.
Why should you care about rate of fire your gonna wipe, rub it ro slide it off anyways.

Where did I ever justify it, where have I done anything but admit is wrong? Have I gone along for the ride... yep, I did. Am I happy about the ride, the fact that I was allowed to, or even the fact that I did? Not at all. Is there anyone to blame for my actions besides myself? Not a bit. To those that say cheating isn't that big of a deal. I watched a team disintegrate because of good reffing and cheating... I have an understanding that says I won't cheat anymore. Does it effect skill? Well after being decimated in last tournament we will be dropped a bracket for local tournaments. We fell from competetive to a joke in a single tournament, taking 80 points in penalties in one day, and having a player suspended. Two games in I told the team anyone who cheated that day I wasn't playing with anymore. I decided then that I am playing solely for fun, and who cares enough to cheat.

I'm not justifying it. Had there been more attitudes like yours perhaps cheating would not be as part of the game as it is today. That doesn't justify my own actions, but it does serve as a case in point. I was playing with a team one day as a fill in spot. My teammate came over to me to complain that the ref had called him out on a questionable hit. I shrugged and told him it was no big deal, cause I had handled what was likely a hit on the other side by sliding. I had never looked, but you get the idea, had there been a hit it went away. This guy looked at me and smiled.... it improved his outlook of me at that tournament. Improved... how ridiculous of that?

We justify cheating "we have to to be competetive", "everyone does it", "its how the game is played", "its my duty to my team to do the best I can to win".... its still wrong. Yet all these jsutifications are accepted. ITs a joke. Cheating is wrong... no way aruodn it. If more people, like you, stood up and told those who cheat that it made them look stupid, immature, and you thought less of them because of it... you might get there attention. I don't play the game to win, I play for glory, for excitement.... I can get that without cheating...

[REDRT]

As with anything. One may have the fastest marker out there, but it is how you use it. I like my ramping marker, but I never bonus balled someone to death with it either. True semi or ramping I have seen them both used inappropriately. Every marker even one with a ramping board you still have control. Maybe instead of bashing the markers or the marker companys that make them the emphases should be on the player that loses their control. Punish them with lose of points, DQ'ed, kicked out for the day or stiffer penalties. Resently one of my best paintball friends lost his control. I challenged him on it and he got upset saying some hurtful things in reply. The respect I once had was/is gone. I never expected him to react like that! He doesn't talk to me anymore. I really don't care, because as things picked up and are still getting faster. I feel control of ones actions might be the single most important thing to consider while playing. To be honest if I or any member of my team ever intentionally bonus balled someone in excess like my former friend did, it would be the end of the day for that player. Maybe even off the team.

[hitech]

Enforcing the rules would go a long way toward fixing a lot of the current problems. Oddly enough, it seems that the only tournaments capable are the small local ones. Maybe it's because the bottom line doesn't drive the decisions. :spit_take

[JKR]

Somewhere back at the beginning of the thread, it was asked why we played paintball. I continue to play paintball because I associate with guys that play with honor, call hits, ask for nearby players to check for paint, and expect the same from everyone else. Honestly, if my only source of paintball was a walk-on crowd that consistently cheats and plays unsafely, I probably wouldn't be playing now. Yes, the major reason that I continue to play paintball is the renegade group that I play with. I will wager we play a much safer game than most pay-to-play fields and have more fun doing it. We enforce velocity and goggle rules and seriously frown on any form of bad attitude.

I do play at a local field with walk-on players but thankfully we seem to be behind the times in regards to equipment cheats. Heck, recently I played there and out of the 40 or so walkons, about 7 or 8 of us were toting mech Automags! I can honestly say I have never faced a ramping 'gun.

[REDRT]

The one thing that has me confused is many of the newer markers that are set in Semi mode shoot quicker than a ramping marker. So if the ball cap is set at 15bps why care if it ramping or not?

[alooney11]

man if we dont take a look at our gear soon, something very bad is going to happen for the industry.

[bound for glory]

and then everyone who justified ramps and overshoting, like the idiot who said "it does'nt hurt anymore, we like it" or something like that, is gonna say "why are people coming down on paintball?". really lohman, you want to know when enough is enough? go back and read some peoples posts. really read them. justify cheating because they play tournys? i "have to" because the other team is gonna do it? what kind of bum blames someone else for their own rotteness? i play fair because thats who i am. nobody said to me back in march of 1985, now don't wipe a hit off. nobody EVER had to tell me, once semi's came along, don't overshot. what a bunch of losers. and don't tell me not to cry about it. i been alive longer than most of the "tourny" players who post here. i try to teach my scout unit(57} to play fair.don't overshot someone. don't steal the enjoyment from someone else. i took my troop to a pa. airsoft weekend and guess what? atleast the airsofters play with a set hounour system. if you cheat, you leave. lets see a feild owner in paintball do that...

[Beemer]

Well to answer the question at hand I say enough is enough when you are shooting faster then you can pull[thats just my opinion I could be wrong] but it is a known standard.


7. Most of you will say you would never play paintball at 30 BPS. Your addicted, its just like heroin, you don't really care if it kills you. See #2 above.


Being hit multiple times may be unsafe, but who knows this? I've never seen any tests or investigations into it.
Whats the deal cant prove or disprove. Ya ok. thats the problem nobody is doing any testing or are they???????????????

These quotes from here...http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=109971&highlight=Heroin



Ask Manike one day to show you the goggle testing he did to disprove the "masks won't take it" defence.


Ya I saw that vid. That was a real good test[not] Then ask him how much paint got thru the mask then ask him about soft tissue exposure. Then ask him about ASTM and you will get this.


I and NPS are always working on ways to make paintball safer.
We also have a new barrel plug coming that actually works and conforms to the ASTM standards (most/many barrel plugs do not). These barrel plugs work better in the majority of circumstances and have advantages over the barrel condoms.
Safety IS a priority for us in this industry.
ASTM STANDARDS ARE VOLUNTARY.

From here.... http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=171023&page=1&pp=40


If Im going into a high risk hobby I think I would have the high risk gear to go with it. [ie. roll bar, fire suit, engine shut off, HANS etc..etc..

Arent these Mandatory to even participate? Why? So If Murphy stops by I just might live to Play another day. But wait this is painball its like Chinese Down Hill[there are no rules] well there is, just very little compliance.

I see alot of fuzzy logic in this thread. Must be an I.A.D.S.P.B.P. thing. Sad thing is it applies to me to.

Just for the record again, all my guns meet ASTM standards, one shot one pull. AD test etc.. etc..Why? Because I care and when Murphy comes around I cant say I dont or didnt know or dont care. My umbrella policy is paid up to, is yours?

Oh ya as an old timer I know that the only place I can fire my gun in any way no matter what is the range or the field[hot zone] any place else is cold or safe zone and my gun is completely shut down. Air off, gun degassed breech empty, safty on, barrel cover on. Why?
Because I care about YOUR safety, do you care about mine??????????? Thats the big one.


Key words I noticed in this thread by more then One, ASTM, SAFETY, Governing Body.

I cant prove anything till I get more info from some Neurologists. Anybody want to let me shoot them in the head and neck 15 to 20 times at 300fps at 12 to 15 feet? Didnt think so. Its really only the one hit Im looking for so the rest dont count.

I could say more but you know or dont care.


Play Safe
Play Fair
HAVE FUN

Peace Out

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