So, I turned off ramping today

[Lohman446]

I had been using ramping (per the rules allowed where I play) for the past month or so. I have to play at a tournament where it won't be legal so I wanted to practice without it.

What I noticed: I became much more effective as a player. I moved more, I aimed my shots better, and I just plain seemed to have a better idea of what I needed to do movement wise to accomplish my goals. My question to you: might ramping negatively influence your game?

[AGDlover]

yes it does i'm pissed about getting lit up that fast but eh they think i use ramping too :rolleyes:

[68magOwner]

i played with ramping for the first time yesterday, getting ready for CFOA (have played in 15bps ramping tourneys prior to this one, but, played semi in those out of personal preferance) I actually thought it was kinda nice, i wouldnt say it made me better in any aspect really, but, things like running and gunning, just made you be able to concentrate less on shooting. So, no, i dont think it will negatively effect you

[JimmyBeam]

ive been thinking about turning it off as well. ive found myself relying on it more and more.

[Maggot6]

*shakes fist* damn, those cheaters discovered why we were still beating them ;)

*edit* I did not mean cheater in the game, I meant that they aren't doing all the "work" that the normal non ramp guy is doing.

[68magOwner]

*shakes fist* damn, those cheaters discovered why we were still beating them ;)

...i believe everyone so far that said they use ramping also stated that they use it when it is legal.....

[AGDlover]

i never used ramping

[RRfireblade]

My question to you: might ramping negatively influence your game?

Yes......and no.

I mean IMO, it most definately will have a negative effect on your semi game.Despite the claims of 'some' people, shooting fast,effectively,off handed and while on the move is without question a very important skill that needs to be developed.That's why 'cheating' is so despised by those of us who play truly legal semi. The addition of ramping and full auto legal leagues is just an insult to the spirit of the game and the work ethic practiced by many of 'us' since the of advent of speedball,concept fields and that whole style of play.

It really bothers me that eliminating an entire area of playing skill has now become 'legal' and common place in the sport. I can remember, not that long ago either, when 'advanced' players joked about E-Spyder newbs wanting to play on full auto. Has so much really changed since the 'cheaters' won the battle?



And....

No, I guess. I mean if all you ever play in is ramped or 'legal' full auto leagues then I guess those shooting skills that you've either lost or never had in the first place aren't going to seperate you from anyone else in the same league.

[yakitori]

ramping is not cheating if it is allowed IE NXL/PSP/CFOA.

I dont see why everyone complains about ramping. All it really does is give you a more consistent stream of paint. I can shoot about 16-17bps w/ my viking on true semi, or 15 w/ ramping on my Ion. Which would you rather have flying at you?

For the Ion to ramp in rebound mode, the first 3 shots are semi only, then you have to maintain at least 8 bps to ramp to 15. I dont see how it is that unsafe really. Also just cause someone is ramping doesnt mean they are always throwing 15 balls at you.

On whether or not I think it improves your game, no I dont think so. You just notice it because you went from ramping to not ramping. When I dont use ramping I dont think about my shots any more than when I do use it ( which I havent used it yet except testing it out )

[Lohman446]

Yes......and no.

I mean IMO, it most definately will have a negative effect on your semi game.Despite the claims of 'some' people, shooting fast,effectively,off handed and while on the move is without question a very important skill that needs to be developed.That's why 'cheating' is so despised by those of us who play truly legal semi. The addition of ramping and full auto legal leagues is just an insult to the spirit of the game and the work ethic practiced by many of 'us' since the of advent of speedball,concept fields and that whole style of play.

It really bothers me that eliminating an entire area of playing skill has now become 'legal' and common place in the sport. I can remember, not that long ago either, when 'advanced' players joked about E-Spyder newbs wanting to play on full auto. Has so much really changed since the 'cheaters' won the battle?



And....

No, I guess. I mean if all you ever play in is ramped or 'legal' full auto leagues then I guess those shooting skills that you've either lost or never had in the first place aren't going to seperate you from anyone else in the same league.

Well I woudl agree that shooting fast is a skill I present to you the argument that this skill having an effect on the otucome of a game is ridiculous. It does, but... do you understand what I mean. WHy should being able to shoot fast influence the game, its not what the game is meant to be about.

[Beemer]

yes it does i'm pissed about getting lit up that fast but eh they think i use ramping too :rolleyes:

What gun you use?

You got lit up because you did something wrong. Same as if I was shooting you with my 10 bps not because of ramping. What did you do wrong? Figure it out and learn from your mistakes



__________________________________________________ _________________________________


http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/SigPic.jpg

[yakitori]

Yes......and no.

I mean IMO, it most definately will have a negative effect on your semi game.Despite the claims of 'some' people, shooting fast,effectively,off handed and while on the move is without question a very important skill that needs to be developed.That's why 'cheating' is so despised by those of us who play truly legal semi. The addition of ramping and full auto legal leagues is just an insult to the spirit of the game and the work ethic practiced by many of 'us' since the of advent of speedball,concept fields and that whole style of play.

I disagree w/ that statement simply because many ppl w/ a properly setup trigger can shoot around 14-16 bps anyway. The ramping cap levels the playing field so that everyone is shooting the same bps. I dont complain because Ive practiced walking to get faster in my house all day and I can hit 17 bps, but the cap makes me have to shoot 2 bps slower.

IMO its not cheating if its legal.

If so, then all of the RT mag users that are sweetspotting and shooting 20+bps should be banned from the field too. RT tippys should be banned too.

Heavens no, good luck getting all the loyal AGD users to stop cheating w/ their RTs, that would be a sin. Yet the same ppl bash the Ion for it, when its limited to 17bps. Time to stop the double standards.

[AGDlover]

lol i use and emag but sit and rip on it in the snake and its usualy when its off the break cause i stumble a little bit every now and then

[Lohman446]

I disagree w/ that statement simply because many ppl w/ a properly setup trigger can shoot around 14-16 bps anyway.

False... very few people can sustain 15BPS...

[Beemer]

might ramping negatively influence your game?

Couldnt tell ya, NEVER used it. Never will. 1 shot one pull is where its at baby :ninja:

Try it youll like it. I know lets get Mikey, he'll try anything :eek:

Now ya went and told everyone :clap:

[yakitori]

whos to say what the game was "meant" to be? You cant say that, otherwise we would be watching football games w/ teams w/o facemasks, and headslaps would be legal.

The sport is what it is, and if it was meant to be played in the woods, then tournies would be out of the question. You see where Im going w/ this right.

Why do you and others keep questioning why we do these things. Why do you keep asking rhetorical questions. Just take the game for its face value. Its not some big mystery. Its paintball that grew into a sport out of what was originally a laid back game w/ ppl playing w/ pumps in the woods.

I prefer the sport aspect of the game because I am a competetive person. I enjoy it. If you keep questioning why you are doing it, maybe you should give up paintball.

[68magOwner]

False... very few people can sustain 15BPS...

honestly, playing with my ramping on really is noticiably slower than when i dont use it.

[yakitori]

False... very few people can sustain 15BPS...

very few ppl need to practice then.

I can sustain 15bps for what I need it for. You can sustain it for about 5-8 seconds on a break? If not you need to practice and youve used ramping too long.

How many other scenarios are there in speedball where you are out in the open needing to sustain 15 bps for over 10-15 seconds? None. Most of it is snapshooting, and running and shooting. And for that, yes I can sustain 15 bps for long enough to get where Im going.

[atm743]

I had been using ramping (per the rules allowed where I play) for the past month or so. I have to play at a tournament where it won't be legal so I wanted to practice without it.

What I noticed: I became much more effective as a player. I moved more, I aimed my shots better, and I just plain seemed to have a better idea of what I needed to do movement wise to accomplish my goals. My question to you: might ramping negatively influence your game?


ya know same things with me

i have been useing my e-mag in e mode all the time and i jest bout a mech rt mag and i sware i get more people out move way more and save alot on paint and air.

in kinda the same way from you are saying.

i think ramping and jest plane shooting fast messes up your game

for ex.

if you andsnap shooting laying paint down at some one. more likley if you are using E mode or some fast shooting like ramping or whatever you waste more paint and air plus when you are doing that you really not aiming for the player. your more worried about how fast your shooting. and when you are laying down paint at some one and he pops back behind the bunker you jest wasted about 10-30 paintballs when you could jest be shooting about 2-10 paintballs. plus shooting slower i think helps on Accuracy and less on chopping balls.

when i played with my mech i used about one hopper in two three games depending how intence and long the game is. i used to go thouse a hopper or more a game with my e-mag in E mode. also i got way more people out with the mech.

honestly shooting fast is there for two basic reasons.

1 pissing someone off

2 laying down paint soo you can give a team mate a chance in moving without getting shoot.

[yakitori]

honestly, playing with my ramping on really is noticiably slower than when i dont use it.

I agree and the reason for it is in my post above.

[yakitori]

ALso Lohman maybe its cause youre using an Ion and not my Viking :p

15 bps is easy. The Ion however is not so easy. And very few ppl have their trigger setup properly. I know its prefernce, but if you shot my viking, you would see what I am talking about.

AND, I can empty a full hopper and sustain over 15bps for an extended period of time raking. Walking is not as easy to sustain, but raking will get you there.

[RRfireblade]

Well I woudl agree that shooting fast is a skill I present to you the argument that this skill having an effect on the otucome of a game is ridiculous. It does, but... do you understand what I mean. WHy should being able to shoot fast influence the game, its not what the game is meant to be about.

IMO, it is a skill and it can have an outcome on the game. I don't think it's ridiculous either. More ROF=more potential for eliminations, that's what the games all about it. Is a high ROF 'ALL' that it takes? Hell no, but it does have an effect. Play a few games with a pump against a semi team and then let me know what you think. ;)


I disagree w/ that statement simply because many ppl w/ a properly setup trigger can shoot around 14-16 bps anyway. The ramping cap levels the playing field so that everyone is shooting the same bps. I dont complain because Ive practiced walking to get faster in my house all day and I can hit 17 bps, but the cap makes me have to shoot 2 bps slower.

I don't even have to disagree with that...it's pure nonsense and it's been proven so a hundred times over.NPPLs robot testing and various other on field player ROF testing that has gone on over the last few years have shown conclusively that the average pro Tourny player w/ a 'legally' set up semi marker averages 9-11bps and there are only a handfull to ever reach 15 and for very short strings.It's also been shown that since the inception of legal ramping and auto leagues that the paint per game per team ratio is considerably higher than ever before. You can't argue with the numbers.

The real problem is 'everyone' always claims to be legally shoooting that fast and in the vast majority of cases, they are proven or can be proven to be....not. ;)




Heavens no, good luck getting all the loyal AGD users to stop cheating w/ their RTs, that would be a sin. Yet the same ppl bash the Ion for it, when its limited to 17bps. Time to stop the double standards.

And please.....don't create and arguement that doesn't exist. Everytime and AO'er makes a statement why does it get debated with something related to a Mag. Don't fabricate a double standard and it won't be used. I've stated my opinion in the past in regards to Mags and Emags for the matter. My stance there is quite clear.

[Lohman446]

I can sustain 15bps for what I need it for. You can sustain it for about 5-8 seconds on a break? If not you need to practice and youve used ramping too long. .

Get me a video showing LEGAL trigger pulls, where the video can see your fingers moving, and each trigger pull can be soundgraphed to the marker firing paint. Get and sustain 15BPS for 8 seconds on a legal, semi-only trigger, and I will paypal you $20. BPS estimates are like vanity sizing at Nordstroms (did you know a size 6 at Nordstroms is the same as a size 10 at WalMart)

[Lohman446]

IMO, it is a skill and it can have an outcome on the game. I don't think it's ridiculous either. More ROF=more potential for eliminations, that's what the games all about it. Is a high ROF 'ALL' that it takes? Hell no, but it does have an effect. Play a few games with a pump against a semi team and then let me know what you think. ;)


I misstated myself. I don't mean to say it doesn't, I know it does, I know its a skill. I have a problem accepting that it should be a skill in paintball. It is, does not mean it should be.

[yakitori]

you ppl apparently dont know what raking is if you think 9-11bps is the standard. :rofl:

And why is bouncing a mag or a tippy a double standard to an electric? Its a firepower upgrade, and its considered cheating too.

A better question would be WHY DO YOU LOYAL MAG USERS DEFEND THE MAG SO RELIGIOUSLY AND ALL OTHER GUNS ARE SQUAT ?

There I fixed it for ya.

:dance:

EDIT: oh and fireblade, do you mind showing me the results of this "extensive" testing.

And why do all the mech users claim 13bps then? Most of them are mag users.

and forgive me for not knowing your "quite clear" position on mags cause you know I spend all my time following YOUR posts cause you are a paintball god. :cool:

[Beemer]

Despite the claims of 'some' people, shooting fast,effectively,off handed and while on the move is without question a very important skill that needs to be developed.That's why 'cheating' is so despised by those of us who play truly legal semi. The addition of ramping and full auto legal leagues is just an insult to the spirit of the game and the work ethic practiced by many of 'us' since the of advent of speedball,concept fields and that whole style of play.

It really bothers me that eliminating an entire area of playing skill has now become 'legal' and common place in the sport. I can remember, not that long ago either, when 'advanced' players joked about E-Spyder newbs wanting to play on full auto. Has so much really changed since the 'cheaters' won the battle?

Thats great can I edit this and put it in my sig?



Heavens no, good luck getting all the loyal AGD users to stop cheating w/ their RTs, that would be a sin. Yet the same ppl bash the Ion for it, when its limited to 17bps. Time to stop the double standards.

They only cheat if they want to. I use AGD and I dont cheat. No double Standard Here


I dont see how it is that unsafe really.
Got any proof



Its paintball that grew into a sport

Not quite yet...........Still need a Governing Body for that

[yakitori]

Got any proof



:rolleyes:

fireblades statements are hardly worth siging esp since Sigs are no longer here.

And lets see some proof on how its is unsafe. Thats what everyone keeps saying.

And I was referring to the AGD USERS that USE bounce. If you dont use bounce then Im not referring to you. Doesnt take a genius to figure that out. :rolleyes:

[RRfireblade]

I misstated myself. I don't mean to say it doesn't, I know it does, I know its a skill. I have a problem accepting that it should be a skill in paintball. It is, does not mean it should be.

Whys that?

I mean, shooting your marker fast and effectively is not something everyone can do.Most people can't walk 2 bps the first time they try.I get people in the store all the time that have played for years and will never be able to consistantly walk a trigger.

Now add left handed, a definate must for an advanced player.

Now try hitting the mythical 15bps on the dead run towards a bunker.

Now try left handed.

No try holding off an opponent, maintaining 15bps, with one hand while releoding.

Now try left handed.

Come out on a snap AT 15bps.

How about snapping left handed.

A halfway decent newb could do all that on a ramping gun by the end of their first day of play.

Could you on yours?

:D

[yakitori]

why do you ppl think that walking is the ONLY trigger technique. Every heard of that little hump in the middle of the trigger? well use it. I can keep well over 15 bps until I get a blister on my finger.

I agree that any noob can shoot a ramping gun fast, but Im kinda insulted because of all the practice Ive done to get 14-17.

Why is everyone excusing the RAKING fact.

I know a guy that can shoot his gun w/ 3 fingers faster than anyone Ive seen w/ 2. Is there any studys on that fireblade?

[AGDlover]

heh i am left handed

[RRfireblade]

you ppl apparently dont know what raking is if you think 9-11bps is the standard. :rofl:

And why is bouncing a mag or a tippy a double standard to an electric? Its a firepower upgrade, and its considered cheating too.

A better question would be WHY DO YOU LOYAL MAG USERS DEFEND THE MAG SO RELIGIOUSLY AND ALL OTHER GUNS ARE SQUAT ?

There I fixed it for ya.

:dance:

EDIT: oh and fireblade, do you mind showing me the results of this "extensive" testing.

And why do all the mech users claim 13bps then? Most of them are mag users.

and forgive me for not knowing your "quite clear" position on mags cause you know I spend all my time following YOUR posts cause you are a paintball god. :cool:

I guess your reading comprehension is not ramped. ;)

My ROF statement is what's been found to be true on the field during pro tourny play. I can get my Viking to hit 48bps upside down on my lap flicking the trigger too. Not sure why that means anything though. You still have to prove the markers set up legal and do it on the feild in normal play.Do you rake while snapping? Now that would be a LOL.

And.

YOU BROUGHT UP MAGS DODO BIRD. Mags have nothing to do with the question of the thread geez. That's was my point silly.

And FYI, I think ALL RT mags (and E/Xmags in stock config) should be considered illegal for Semi only play.

There, feel better now? ;)

[yakitori]

I guess your reading comprehension is not ramped. ;)

My ROF statement is what's been found to be true on the field during pro tourny play. I can get my Viking to hit 48bps upside down on my lap flicking the trigger too. Not sure why that means anything though. You still have to prove the markers set up legal and do it on the feild in normal play.Do you rake while snapping? Now that would be a LOL.

And.

YOU BROUGHT UP MAGS DODO BIRD. Mags have nothing to do with the question of the thread geez. That's was my point silly.

And FYI, I think ALL RT mags (and E/Xmags in stock config) should be considered illegal for Semi only play.

There, feel better now? ;)

Ya I feel better now. :D. I dont snap while raking, but I dont have to "sustain" 15 bps while snapping either. That was my point. There are lots of scenarios you can come up w/ where you dont have to really "sustain" 15 bps. And I dont snap while raking, that would be goofy. But raking can be effective for a backman. And Most ppl dont play in the NPPL.

I can see that mag have nothing to do w/ ramping, but the statements afterward like "I dont use ramping, ramping is cheating, etc" But ppl excuse the bounce factor in mags, and it is Bias. Thats all I was trying to say.

[Lohman446]

I'm still waiting for the video of 15BPS for 8 seconds that I was told was so easy to do.

As to why I don't think it should be a skill that influences the outcome of the game. Come one now, shooting fast is not what thsi game was meant to be about, at least not to me. It is a skill though. Until I see some scientific proof that shooting with ramping IS safe (The ASTM has already said that shooting without enhanced triggers is reasonably safe) then I question it being allowed (yes I have used it). I could argue that using my .45 in play, as long as I only shoot to deflate bunkers is safe - prove it isn't...

[RRfireblade]

why do you ppl think that walking is the ONLY trigger technique. Every heard of that little hump in the middle of the trigger? well use it. I can keep well over 15 bps until I get a blister on my finger.

I agree that any noob can shoot a ramping gun fast, but Im kinda insulted because of all the practice Ive done to get 14-17.

Why is everyone excusing the RAKING fact.

I know a guy that can shoot his gun w/ 3 fingers faster than anyone Ive seen w/ 2. Is there any studys on that fireblade?


Your ROF is unsubstantiated so I won't argue that. I know a hundred people that think they can hit 17bps and I've never seen anyone do it for more than 2 shots in a row on a legal semi gun.

And Raking? Your kidding right? You think that's something new? You ever see anyone play pro do that effectively on the field? Yeah, didn't think so.Why? Cause it's an extremely limited way to fire only to gain a couple BPS.

Oh, the 3 finger urban myths.

Yeah, they go way back too. Think about the way a trigger works and what is required for the marker to fire consecutive shots and you'll realize that 3 fingers is no advantage at all even if you could pull off the proper sequence.Plus I've yet to ever see anyone do it with any proficiency either...also not a legal semi gun.

Trust me, I'm a classically trained guitarist for almost 30 years. I'm well versed in ALL the finger pulling options...and with either hand. ;)

[Lohman446]

Your ROF is unsubstantiated so I won't argue that. I know a hundred people that think they can hit 17bps and I've never seen anyone do it for more than 2 shots in a row on a legal semi gun.


I can hit 55BPS on my mechanical Cocker with a Q-loader and sustain it for like the 1.8 seconds it takes to unload... oh, you wanted proof... umm, well, my finger hurts today, umm, its off being timed, umm... crap

[RRfireblade]

As to why I don't think it should be a skill that influences the outcome of the game. Come one now, shooting fast is not what thsi game was meant to be about, at least not to me.


I totally agree. that's why I play stock class pump so often.

Plug Warning Ahead.... SCP Pump Day at Space Coast Paintball, next event May 28. Anyone with a pump welcome.


But it can make a difference. Imagine a dead even game, skill wise, but one team has a 20% better chance of getting a break each time they hit an opponent.That will add up rather quickly over the course of a weekend.

[Beemer]

Go here and read all the posts by " Mntn " the thread starter when you have a few minutes or Mybe an hour in some cases.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?threadid=543000&perpage=21&highlight=&pagenumber=1



Then SHOW me you shoot 15 on a LEGAL Semi.

Its not that peeps cant shoot that fast for real its just a lot lot lot less then Everybody thinks


fireblades statements are hardly worth siging esp since Sigs are no longer here.

What do you mean? I have a sig right here any time I want. Are you blind or just dont see?[no txt added yet]


And lets see some proof on how its is unsafe.

Hows this?

Post 33 here
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=160827



Now I know many of you aren't too worried about your fellow competitors. That if you shoot him 25 times, that's his bad luck. Many of you aren't aware that at the CFOA finale at Rock Hill, that there was a player who was bunkered by a ramping gun at point blank range in the head. The player who did the shooting was not malicious in his actions, but the quick pulls of the trigger did produce 6 shots to the mask of the player who got bunkered. Those 6 shots at that range broke the unaltered Profiler of the player who was bunkered. We were lucky and no injury occurred. Only the player who got his bell rung and had to buy some new goggles was the worse for wear.


Doesnt take a genius to figure that out.
Ya I know, I.A.D.S.P.B.P

__________________________________________________ __________________________________

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/SigPic.jpg

[Lohman446]

I totally agree. that's why I play stock class pump so often.

Plug Warning Ahead.... SCP Pump Day at Space Coast Paintball, next event May 28. Anyone with a pump welcome.


But it can make a difference. Imagine a dead even game, skill wise, but one team has a 20% better chance of getting a break each time they hit an opponent.That will add up rather quickly over the course of a weekend.

Tell you what, I normally make a run away from the winter in January / February - it gets cold up north and paintball kinda dies down. I'll see about making one of those pump days next year.

[RRfireblade]

I can see that mag have nothing to do w/ ramping, but the statements afterward like "I dont use ramping, ramping is cheating, etc" But ppl excuse the bounce factor in mags, and it is Bias. Thats all I was trying to say.

I got you now.

And I agree 100% there too. I feel the same way about any kind of RTs. Read the Patents they ALL say "intended to enhance the players ROF", the proofs right in the pudding recipe. :)

And lastly I'll say this, I don't consider anything illegal 'generally'. If the league allows it, then it's legal...whatever it is. We have local ones here sometimes that occasionally allow Tippy RTs, whatcha gonna do?

The simple fact however is ramping and legal full auto exist only because of an inability of Tourny promoters and officials to catch and regulate Cheaters.

No other reason.

[RRfireblade]

Tell you what, I normally make a run away from the winter in January / February - it gets cold up north and paintball kinda dies down. I'll see about making one of those pump days next year.


I'll promise you this then.

You get down here to play anytime and it won't cost you a dime or will you need a play to stay.

Jay.

[yakitori]

Beemer. I said PROOF that it is unsafe. Not a thread bout the rule being instated. *scratches head* ummmm...okay.

and the guy shooting w/ three fingers was no lie. He did it on your fireblade trigger on my karta emag that I sold. It is a nice big long trigger. I couldnt believe it myself when he said it, but he did it. I cannot do it although Ive tried over and over and over..... I can only get it to do a burst.

And for the 14-16 bps sustained video. Watch Nicads hAir trigger video. He does it. Why is it so hard to believe. I can do it. I dont lie, and I dont appreciate you belittling my claim. I would put up a video if I could. I dont really know how, but I will try. It wont be in the next couple days though. It will have gaps in the shots though. I cannot reproduce a ramping gun in semi. My rythym is not THAT good, but I can definitely shoot faster than 9-11bps. I never claimed I could reproduce a ramping gun. And stop dismissing my claim for a "need to sustain 15 bps for 10 seconds" I said 5-8 seconds on a break. Prolly closer to 5. And Other than that, snapshooting and running and guning is basically it. Stop putting words in my mouth. I didnt state any "mythical" speed. I said that 15bps sustained is not all that necessary given speedball scenarios, but I can shoot it for as long as I need to.

IF you have a 15bps cap, that will limit your snapshooting. Even though you are only pulling a few balls, w/ an unlimited ROF cap (like WAS), you will be getting off maybe an extra 1-2 balls than if you have a cap. That of course will vary w/ how fast you snap out and how fast you get a few shots off.

The point of this thread has gotten way off base. Maybe its because you (Lohman) keep asking dumb questions like "is ramping good or bad, discuss" or "does shooting semi improve your game or not?" or "why have we accepted cheating" or "insert any other improbable question here"

Your rhetoric is getting annoying. You think about things too much. Ill tell you like Ive told my friend that reminds me of you. "Im sick of your philosophy" If you dont know why you are doing things you do, dont play paintball. Leave this sport. Stop the bickering and the questions that have no answer please. :p

I mean you are asking why we accept cheating, yet in the same thread you state that youve blatantly commited cheating acts. Like playing through, sliding in a way to wipe a shot, and bonus balling. How can you help find a solution to a problem when you are contributing to it.

Play or shut up. Thats my motto.

[firebanex]

Oh, the 3 finger urban myths.

Yeah, they go way back too. Think about the way a trigger works and what is required for the marker to fire consecutive shots and you'll realize that 3 fingers is no advantage at all even if you could pull off the proper sequence.Plus I've yet to ever see anyone do it with any proficiency either...also not a legal semi gun.

Trust me, I'm a classically trained guitarist for almost 30 years. I'm well versed in ALL the finger pulling options...and with either hand. ;)

you have not met lester then, course you couldn't have he lives up here in Alaska. lester does use the 3 finger walk proficently and can shoot faster than any one else we have ever met up here. legaly to, he's done 16-17 on an Angel speed, does it regualrily on his dark timmy debounce 50, he did it on my ir3. next time zack has his camera at the field we'll get him to tape it.

lester is insane with his 3walk as we all call it, i'm not sure how he does it but he pulls it off like its nothing to him, anywho i'll get a video someday of it.

oh topic what was it? oh ramping... my gun has ramping but its locked and i can't use any modes, not that I care i can do 10-12 and spike to 14 and that fast enough for me, legal to, ir3's doesn't have debounce or any of that crap. I really don't like to shoot fast except for snap shots, come out shoot like 4 balls at 10-12 and then i'm back in.

also why I mostly play stock class, save money and I play a ton better w/ a pump even though I've used a semi for far longer than a pump. I also like the handicap it puts on me, i got to rely on my skill to shoot some one with one ball rather than shooting a lot more to hit the same target.

[RRfireblade]

you have not met lester then, course you couldn't have he lives up here in Alaska.


That probably explains it. ;)

I don't doubt it can be done. I just haven't seen anyone do it well in person. I can do it myself but not any faster than 2 fingers. I can do it with my off hand as well.

I just mean that basically, the trigger has to be pulled and released in that order. In order to use a third finger, both other fingers have to be off the trigger. One on, one off, one off. That's the walk. Using a third finger simply doesn't add any speed. It's not like drumming your fingers on a table or in the case of guitar ,hammering out a musical sequence where one finger can follow the previous ones and the others can lag behind on the release. (if that's understandable). You still have to pull and release before the next finger can go. There's plenty of time to get the previous finger ready for the next shot while the current one is in process tht's all.If you had multiple triggers, now that would be a different story. :D

[Beemer]

Beemer. I said PROOF that it is unsafe. Not a thread bout the rule being instated. *scratches head* ummmm...okay.


That was the link I took the quote from. Post number 33. The quote is in my post[read it again Sherlock :ninja: ] Here it is again for your reading pleasure. Now think what if that had been 12 15 or 20 hits :shooting: :tard:


Now I know many of you aren't too worried about your fellow competitors. That if you shoot him 25 times, that's his bad luck. Many of you aren't aware that at the CFOA finale at Rock Hill, that there was a player who was bunkered by a ramping gun at point blank range in the head. The player who did the shooting was not malicious in his actions, but the quick pulls of the trigger did produce 6 shots to the mask of the player who got bunkered. Those 6 shots at that range broke the unaltered Profiler of the player who was bunkered. We were lucky and no injury occurred. Only the player who got his bell rung and had to buy some new goggles was the worse for wear.

Heres the key sentence for ya in case ya missed it again.


Those 6 shots at that range broke the unaltered Profiler of the player who was bunkered.

You just earned your I.A.D.S.P.B.P. Patch

[mark_1791]

You just earned your I.A.D.S.P.B.P. Patch :confused: Whats that?

[onedude36]

Ok, everyone start pointing fingers and get offended all at once!

The new AO is great. :(

[REDRT]

My question to you: might ramping negatively influence your game?

I find myself holding back because I don't want to inadvertantly want to over shoot someone. With the old 3.2 I would shoot as fast is I could because everything seemed to shoot faster. Now I'm just as fast/faster and I hold back. I think I get shot more now because I might hold back too much.

[Beemer]

The point of this thread has gotten way off base. Maybe its because you (Lohman) keep asking dumb questions like "is ramping good or bad, discuss" or "does shooting semi improve your game or not?" or "why have we accepted cheating" or "insert any other improbable question here"
Ha Ha, you're kidding right? There is no such thing as a dumb question. :nono: If you dont like what he posts why do you read and post then? He does ask some good questions in my opinion and is able to post with class and style and with out being RUDE from what I have read. Wish I could say the same about you. Are you the new and future AO?

Your rhetoric is getting annoying. You think about things too much. "Im sick of your philosophy" Stop the bickering and the questions that have no answer please.

Well gee I think to much too :bounce: Is that a bad thing?

Dont be sick, try and understand..........


phi·los·o·phy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (f-ls-f)
n. pl. phi·los·o·phies

Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.

Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.

A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.

The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.

The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.

The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.

A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.

A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.

Sounds bad to me too. :wow: That guy Hume earned the Nobel Peace Prize.

Just because you dont see or know the answer does not mean it is not there or does not exist.


I mean you are asking why we accept cheating, yet in the same thread you state that youve blatantly commited cheating acts. Like playing through, sliding in a way to wipe a shot, and bonus balling. How can you help find a solution to a problem when you are contributing to it.

Well he got ya on that one. Part of the problem or the solution? aint this great

Sorry for the Jack, Lohman but I had to. Hey how ya like my sig?


Whats that?

I.A.D.S.P.B.P = I'm A Dumb S... Paint Ball Player


The new AO is great

What do you mean? Its the sameo sameo, whats new about it?

__________________________________________________ _______________________

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/SigPic.jpg

[tyrion2323]

I suppose the best solution to a thread that you dislike is to simply leave the thread. If you don't like the questions being asked, you can simply click the BACK button. Asking questions isn't wrong, especially since Lohman doesn't ask them to incite arguments.

[Lohman446]

Beemer. I said PROOF that it is unsafe. Not a thread bout the rule being instated. *scratches head* ummmm...okay.

Before we change the rules that allow someone to shoot a projectile at me I would like to hope the that we had done some scientific research to prove it was safe. Not "we think its safe". Its like testing a shark bite suit - "here put this on" :rolleyes:



I can do it. I dont lie, and I dont appreciate you belittling my claim. I would put up a video if I could. I dont really know how, but I will try.

I don't think you lie, I think you are honestly mistaken, the same as 99% of players out there. And remember it was you who preached how easy it was to do.



The point of this thread has gotten way off base. Maybe its because you (Lohman) keep asking dumb questions like "is ramping good or bad, discuss" or "does shooting semi improve your game or not?" or "why have we accepted cheating" or "insert any other improbable question here"

Your rhetoric is getting annoying. You think about things too much. Ill tell you like Ive told my friend that reminds me of you. "Im sick of your philosophy" If you dont know why you are doing things you do, dont play paintball. Leave this sport. Stop the bickering and the questions that have no answer please. :p

I don't even know how to respond to that. I'm sorry I don't just drool over the newest marker by anyone... the fact is I can't discuss much on the new technology of anything because they just are not out there, as such I post thoughts for discussion. If you don't feel like reading them, or responding to them, don't. If my contribution is of so little value to you, then use the ignore feature. Pretty simple really. I like my questions, people who never question anything, seldom learn. I'd like to think I am open to learning, to discussion, and less likely to be a "just because" type of person. I expect you would have really disliked my thread about the complexities of technology and politics that brought th stapler into existence as we know it now.


I mean you are asking why we accept cheating, yet in the same thread you state that youve blatantly commited cheating acts. Like playing through, sliding in a way to wipe a shot, and bonus balling. How can you help find a solution to a problem when you are contributing to it.

Are you saying because I have cheated I am of no value to finding the solution? Who can tell you why people cheat accurately? The people who have never cheated... no, you can tell me why you shouldn't cheat, but not why people cheat, what possesses them to. Sure, it indicates that I do sometimes do things I should not do. Want me to be like a lot of other people Want me to hide the fact. The point is that the thread was, to me, making a line to simply bashing cheaters. While I think this might ultimately be one of the solutions (though I don't recall asking for solutions, I did ask why noone cared) I did not want the thread to progress and have others feel I was trying to be "better" than them. I'm not.


Play or shut up. Thats my motto.

:rolleyes: How about I play (which I do at least every week) and continue to discuss. I guess I could always shut up, and stick my head in the sand, and ignore the world around me. Its just not me.

[yakitori]

ok then lohman, be annoying then. Discuss what you want. Its not my username that ppl will associate w/ the rhetorical questions.

And Beemer. Learn to read. I wasnt even talking to you about philosophy. You have none, so please. :rolleyes: You havent said anything intelligent yet, that would be Lohman. :D

Im just saying that its kinda kindergarten to ask questions w/ no answers. You can be kindergarten if you want. Once again Beemer not for you. I guess I have to put that every time so you will know who I am talking to since you can infer it from reading through posts.

And BEEMER, I have been shot w/ 15 balls. AND it was w/ a tippmann a5 semi that didnt ramp. All I got was some welts that went away in a week or less. That depends on how broad you define safe. I see ppl where I live flying past ppl on the shoulder during rush hour. I think ramping is safer than that. I see ppl riding wheelies at 70+mph on street bikes in fairly busy traffic. Ramping is safer than that.

Ive seen stories of ppl getting shot in the eye etc, but thats a mask safety issue. Ive seen stories about a tank cylinder coming unscrewed and killing a woman by hitting her in the head. I think ramping is safter than that.

SO, my question for you is......Can someone shoot you w/ 10-15 balls w/ a mech semi, or how about a pump? If yes, then your definition of safe is very narrow because you are biased toward ramping. Of course there is a risk involved when playing paintball, but they are nonlethal projectiles. If you are chronographed right, there should be no REAL danger in getting hit w/ 10-15 balls.

You have still yet to show a real story of and EXAMPLE of how someone has been severly injured as a result of ramping. Im not reading your goofy link that has a post about 30 down about someones opinion. I meant something factual, concrete, that lead to REAL injuries as a DIRECT result of ramping. AND BEEMER, youve failed to do that.

[Lohman446]

ok then lohman, be annoying then. Discuss what you want. Its not my username that ppl will associate w/ the rhetorical questions.

And Beemer. Learn to read. I wasnt even talking to you about philosophy. You have none, so please. :rolleyes: You havent said anything intelligent yet, that would be Lohman. :D

Speaking of learning to read...



rhetorical question
n.
A question to which no answer is expected, often used for rhetorical effect.

I expect answers. Do I expect them to be end all be all answers? Not at all. But I don't post these only for people to look at and go... oh. I post them for people to look at and discuss. If people associate considered questions, considered arguments to my screen name - I don't see where thats a bad thing. If we don't discuss things, what is the purpose of the boards? To show off our newest marker. This board is meant for discussion, and if one is to consider its "image" I would think this type of discussion fits right in.

I'll let Beemer discuss with you the importance of scientific safety standards, and the ASTM. The argument is not that it is unsafe, the argument is that there is no scientific evidence that indicates it IS safe. If we are violating ASTM standards with no evidence that it is safe we put ourselves in danger of civil liability issues. I also beleive there is a strong argument that we are criminally negiligent (search it, there is a thread floating around here discussing that thought). I would like to think we are smarter and less short sighted than it appears we are - and I do mean we, I have done stupid things paintball related. Ohh.. I guess that makes my opinion worth less because I admitted it. I'd like to tell you all I'm perfect, that I never look back and say "that was stupid". I often do, I try to look forward though, and do this as little as possible. I try to discuss and understand why people do things, so that I may have a better idea in my mind, and form stronger ideas because I consider multiple viewpoints. Thats why I make threads like this.

I value Beemers opinion, along with many many others on this board - they are generally well considered, and backed by logic and morals. Are they different then mine? Very often, but that does not make them wrong.

[yakitori]

Speaking of learning to read...



I expect answers. Do I expect them to be end all be all answers? Not at all. But I don't post these only for people to look at and go... oh. I post them for people to look at and discuss. If people associate considered questions, considered arguments to my screen name - I don't see where thats a bad thing. If we don't discuss things, what is the purpose of the boards? To show off our newest marker. This board is meant for discussion, and if one is to consider its "image" I would think this type of discussion fits right in.

I'll let Beemer discuss with you the importance of scientific safety standards, and the ASTM. The argument is not that it is unsafe, the argument is that there is no scientific evidence that indicates it IS safe. If we are violating ASTM standards with no evidence that it is safe we put ourselves in danger of civil liability issues. I also beleive there is a strong argument that we are criminally negiligent (search it, there is a thread floating around here discussing that thought). I would like to think we are smarter and less short sighted than it appears we are - and I do mean we, I have done stupid things paintball related. Ohh.. I guess that makes my opinion worth less because I admitted it. I'd like to tell you all I'm perfect, that I never look back and say "that was stupid". I often do, I try to look forward though, and do this as little as possible. I try to discuss and understand why people do things, so that I may have a better idea in my mind, and form stronger ideas because I consider multiple viewpoints. Thats why I make threads like this.

I value Beemers opinion, along with many many others on this board - they are generally well considered, and backed by logic and morals. Are they different then mine? Very often, but that does not make them wrong.

ya but lohman, you are failing to recognize that is what MOST ppl do w/ your questions. Look at them and go "oh"...then on to another thread. The avg person would think it is rhetorical, and yes I know what it means or else I wouldnt have used it.

As for the ASTM, there is no scientific study to show that it is UNSAFE either. Hell, paintball isnt safe if you want to get scientific about it. Ever been bunkered in the throat? I have. Do I wear a neck protector afterward, no. Thats the risk ppl take when they decide to play. Its like swimming w/o a lifegaurd. You assume the risk of your own actions.

Im done arguing. We just have to agree to disagree. Its all good. I still like you guys, except beemer. ;) :p j/k. We are all AOers and actaully have good discussions. That is why I say rhetorical because an argument can always be debated. That is because it all boils down to opinion. And nobody can provide a final correct answer. It will only be diagreed w/. :cheers:

[tyrion2323]

If we only ever ask questions that we know the answers to, then we'll never progress intellectually. That IS a fact.

[yakitori]

I suppose the best solution to a thread that you dislike is to simply leave the thread. If you don't like the questions being asked, you can simply click the BACK button. Asking questions isn't wrong, especially since Lohman doesn't ask them to incite arguments.

I beleive that the questions are asked to incite argument. That is how ppl give their point of view. What makes it an argument is that some others have a different point of view. Its not fighting, its insightful debate. I can click the back button, but Ive stated my opinioin only to be disputed by a few. To back out would be giving in to a point of view that holds water just as mine does.

The questions asked have no answers, only opinions of others. Thats why there is no answers. Think about it, youll get it.

[Lohman446]

In my opinion, if we all agreed the world woudl be rather boring....

[trains are bad]

Back on topic, there is 'something' to the claim that faster ROFs reduce your accuracy or efficiency as a player. I'm not just talking ramping vs 'legal' but even mech vs. electro.

I played at the Big Game at splatterpark most of the day with me E-Y-mag. I chewed through a whole lot of paint and got a lot of players out that thought they were out of range of your typical tippmann. A nice 15bps rain convinced them they were not out of range of a fast marker and guy who knows how to use it.

However I switched to cocker mode later in the day and I swear I was being more accurate. I could kneejerk and say my cocker is more accurate but I really think it's just that I was paying more attention to shot placement. Of course what you really want to do is pay attention to shot placement AND shoot fast.

It's something that you want to be careful to emphasize when you train. Lots of people practice walking thier triggers all the time, but when they go to the feild are they concentrating on playing effectively or watching mesmerized at thier stream of paint, sticking thier tounge out trying to shoot fast? I've noticed this playing against (inexperienced) teams with fast markers, even back when we had slower ones. The other team was shooting fast but it was really nothing to worry about. Let them shoot fast, it makes them reload more often, and if they are pounding away at a bunker then they are not shooting at you. Meanwhile we were concentrating fully on playing a game of paintball and cleaning up.

Whatever marker you shoot with, it should be an extension of your body, and if you can't shoot fast without being distracted in the process, then shooting that fast is not going to be an advantage, because you should be focusing on WHERE to shoot and WHO to shoot. I see people propping thier electros to their shoulders by the front grip, daintily tickling the trigger. How can they move fast and violently like that? Can they really hold thier marker's as steady and switch targets and sides, and react as fast as they could if they, well, just held onto the damn thing and shot it?

When I had my mech mag set up where I could walk it with the ULT, I ended up going back to the RT on off. Because it was just as fast when you were simply pulling the trigger, and in order to walk it I had to reduce my control of the marker by liberating my shooting hand.

When I played speedball with my mag back when it was mechanical, I was totally comfortable with it, it wasn't in my mind, I just saw paint fly out and hit people. Now that it is a fire breathing beast I have to be careful that I am not out there shooting fast for fast shooting's sake, and instead trying to shoot people and move where I need to be. Just because you can shoot at 15bps doesn't mean that it is appropriate to do so when doing so takes a milisecond more time or concentration that should be applied elsewhere.

And IMO 10bps is a typical legal average player trigger walking speed. Nobody can shoot 15+bps consistently.

[bound for glory]

hey yak! what planet do you live on where you "think" you can pull 15 sustain? i want to go there :rolleyes: let me tell you something. my devilmag(not that i'm bragging) has ramping. watch the promo vid. do i need it? i don't use it because it''s not worth it. who in the world do you think you're impressing with your bs about bps? ok, you got a viking. i got a devilmag. both shot very fast. but really, please stop sniffing glue. it may hurt you :rofl: hey lohman, before this young man flames me, why don't i match that 20 spot about the bps vid. hell, i'll throw in 50. i'm an adult, i work. i can do that :rolleyes:

[tyrion2323]

I beleive that the questions are asked to incite argument. That is how ppl give their point of view. What makes it an argument is that some others have a different point of view. Its not fighting, its insightful debate. I can click the back button, but Ive stated my opinioin only to be disputed by a few. To back out would be giving in to a point of view that holds water just as mine does.

The questions asked have no answers, only opinions of others. Thats why there is no answers. Think about it, youll get it.

Well, no need to bring this down on me....I'm perfectly capable of "getting it," and I'm a bit insulted that you infer otherwise.

I see a big difference between stimulating discussion (which is used for progress, debate and exchange of ideas) and argument (which is marked by flaming and general immaturity). Those are my definitions, and by those definitions, I am comfortable saying that Lohman isn't trying to incite argument. Discussion, perhaps...but that's not a bad thing.

Not all questions can have definite answers. There are many questions worth discussing which don't have definite answers...Political, Religious, Moral, etc. Lots of things need to be discussed. No single answer to any of these questions is ever completely correct. Lohman asked a simple question - is it possible that Ramping can negatively influence your game? Some have said "yes," while others say "no." There isn't a global answer, just personal experiences and generalizations.

[Lohman446]

I did start the thread for discussion, I enjoy mature, logical discussion, and it is a credit to AO, its members, and its administration that AO is one of the best places involving paintball for this.

I am truly curious, when ramping first came out, and was just an idea (even when I was using it on my Shockers) I could only see how it would help. After taking the winter off, most of the way at least, I came back with ramping and it seemed to effect my whole style of play, and my effectivness as a player. I'm curious how many people think that ramping (there own, not someone else shooting at you) might be open to the idea that it would prove to negatively impact there game performance (I went back and added the word performance, I really wasn't getting deep into the idea of safety or morals - which are very valid points in other discussions). From personal experience it has influenced my performance negatively. I don't know if it will influence others, and I'm curious if anyone thinks it already does, or will if they use it.

[zeroack]

just my two cents....

Ramping and nonramping is some what like Semi(mechanical for sake of discussion) and pump play. I think pump play makes you a great player. Makes you much more aware of what you need to do, shots you take and moves you need to make. It may be a bit more extream then the Ramp-nonRamp comparison but I think it's somewhat close.

Zero

[davidb]

ya but lohman, you are failing to recognize that is what MOST ppl do w/ your questions. Look at them and go "oh"...then on to another thread. The avg person would think it is rhetorical, and yes I know what it means or else I wouldnt have used it.


MOST people do that with every thread, otherwise there would be 20,000+ responses to every single post, hoss! ;)

Wow. I've been away from paintball (time and money, time and money) and the PB talk forum for long enough now that I didn't even know that ramping and F/A and whatever else were becoming legal. Quite a disappointment.

[yakitori]

hey yak! what planet do you live on where you "think" you can pull 15 sustain? i want to go there :rolleyes: let me tell you something. my devilmag(not that i'm bragging) has ramping. watch the promo vid. do i need it? i don't use it because it''s not worth it. who in the world do you think you're impressing with your bs about bps? ok, you got a viking. i got a devilmag. both shot very fast. but really, please stop sniffing glue. it may hurt you :rofl: hey lohman, before this young man flames me, why don't i match that 20 spot about the bps vid. hell, i'll throw in 50. i'm an adult, i work. i can do that :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: Sniffing glue, OMG please stop hurting me w/ your 3rd grade insults...Im lauging so hard :rofl: ..... :rolleyes: right. First you dont even know my argument. Maybe you should slow down when you read. I said I can sustain it for as long as I need to. That being on a break for a short time, and other than that, there is not a need to sustain 15 bps. I said for a few seconds IE 5-8 seconds. Read through again before you start saying Im from another planet. Ive already said that I can rake more than 15bps. Do I do it in a game, no. Can I do it, yes. Is it very practical? Maybe not, but it can be done.

Before you insult someone at least have a CLUE what I am saying. Apparently you dont. :tard:

[Lohman446]

I can sustain 15bps for what I need it for. You can sustain it for about 5-8 seconds on a break? If not you need to practice and youve used ramping too long.

I took this statement to mean you could attain and sustain 15BPS for 5 to 8 seconds on the break. Did I misunderstand what you meant?

[yakitori]

I took this statement to mean you could attain and sustain 15BPS for 5 to 8 seconds on the break. Did I misunderstand what you meant?

I actually said later in the post it would be closer to 5 than 8. And yes I mean that I can acheive that ROF, or a little more for enough time. Who needs to sustain 15bps for a whole happer? I cant think of many scenarios where 15bps would need to be sustained for any long period of time except for a breakout.

Does this mean that I will be hitting 15 the whole time? prolly not. But an average over 5 seconds could easily be done. Im not a robot. I dont have sensors in my ear that tell me that I am at 15bps and I need to keep it there. No. I figured common sense would imply that. Are you asking if I can maintain a PERFECT 15BPS for 5-8 seconds? If so, dont you think thats a bit absurd?

Ive already said that there would be gaps, and that the ROF would not be as consistent as ramping. But is it possible to shoot on avg. 15bps for a few seconds. I think so. Thats what Im trying to say. I figured an intelligent person like yourself wouldve understood that.

and that also depends on whether you are running as a front/mid guy or standing at the back sweetspotting for you front guys.

[Beemer]

And BEEMER, I have been shot w/ 15 balls. AND it was w/ a tippmann a5 semi that didnt ramp. All I got was some welts that went away in a week or less. That depends on how broad you define safe. I see ppl where I live flying past ppl on the shoulder during rush hour. I think ramping is safer than that. I see ppl riding wheelies at 70+mph on street bikes in fairly busy traffic. Ramping is safer than that.

Ive seen stories of ppl getting shot in the eye etc, but thats a mask safety issue. Ive seen stories about a tank cylinder coming unscrewed and killing a woman by hitting her in the head. I think ramping is safter than that.

SO, my question for you is......Can someone shoot you w/ 10-15 balls w/ a mech semi, or how about a pump? If yes, then your definition of safe is very narrow because you are biased toward ramping. Of course there is a risk involved when playing paintball, but they are nonlethal projectiles. If you are chronographed right, there should be no REAL danger in getting hit w/ 10-15 balls.

You have still yet to show a real story of and EXAMPLE of how someone has been severly injured as a result of ramping. Im not reading your goofy link that has a post about 30 down about someones opinion. I meant something factual, concrete, that lead to REAL injuries as a DIRECT result of ramping. AND BEEMER, youve failed to do that.

Fuzzy logic, I love it


Well no need to read a GOOFY link, I put the quote right in my post so you wouldnt have to.

6 shots and the gog failed. Thats fact not opinion. Whats the issue the gun or the gogs? What if it had been 15?


FYI gogs are only tested with 8 shots. Now guns can shoot 15 whats wrong with this picture?
Oh ya DYE tests at twice the standards. Why is that?

This story is FA 13 shots. ramping is 15, whats the differrence?


We were playing in the woods course, walking around, ducking, siting.. etc etc. The guy with the angel, which btw none of my group knew he had come on with us, decides to play hunt the newbies. Whatever, thats cool. Untill he deices to switch it to FA mode and put about 13 shots to the back of my neck from around 10-15 feet away.

Want to know what happened after that? I don't know, I passed out. When I came to, my neck was bleeding. Not a little welt, they taped my neck with paper towels, as there wasn't a bandage big enough. Needless to say I had a visit with the emergency room.

Was he shooting hot? Nope, 290. No, I didn't die; I didn't play for another 3 years though. Sure, he was being an a$$; my point is, just because it hasn't happened to you, doesn't mean people don't get seriously hurt. "its part of the game" - sure, but had his marker been limited to semi only, or 6, 7 bps, would the same outcome happen? Doubtful.

Yes, I was hospitalized for 2 days for a concussion. It also took very long time for this to heal. I have had a lot worse pain and didn't pass out. What I remembered when I came to - I had come to a paintball field. My first question, What the hell happened??? I didn't fully remember any of that day for awhile. No, it wasn't just a bloody neck. Yes, I was hospitalized, and during that time, they did numerous tests to make sure I didn't have any internal bleeding. I was lucky, I can still walk, talk, type and use semi proper grammar and punctuation.

Hey I need to do some testing will you let me shoot you in the head and neck 15 times at 300fps at 12 to 15 ft. Its a soft tissue exposure thing.




Being hit multiple times may be unsafe, but who knows this? I've never seen any tests or investigations into it.

Guess who this is. No links for you since you dont need them

__________________________________________________ _____________________________

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/SigPic.jpg

[tyrion2323]

Being hit multiple times may be unsafe, but who knows this? I've never seen any tests or investigations into it.

I've never seen any studies done on the casualty rate of being attacked by catamount, but I'm willing to bet a lot of money that it's something to avoid. We can't just ignore problems and risks because we don't have studies and data on them. That's some seriously fuzzy logic.

[dolphin1823]

ALso Lohman maybe its cause youre using an Ion and not my Viking :p

15 bps is easy. The Ion however is not so easy. And very few ppl have their trigger setup properly. I know its prefernce, but if you shot my viking, you would see what I am talking about.

AND, I can empty a full hopper and sustain over 15bps for an extended period of time raking. Walking is not as easy to sustain, but raking will get you there.

considering most hoppers hold about 180 paintballs, you have 12 seconds of shooting @ 15bps before you run out of paint.

really people, there's not one person in the world who knows how fast they can shoot in a game. how does one figure out how many bps their shooting? I think there's sound analyses and putting x number of paintballs in your loader and timing how fast you empty it and taking the average, so who has time to do that in a game? sure at home or at a target range, no prob, but in a game? Come on! :shooting:

[bound for glory]

wrong! i know your on drugs if you think you can pull 15.

[Lohman446]

I actually said later in the post it would be closer to 5 than 8. And yes I mean that I can acheive that ROF, or a little more for enough time. Who needs to sustain 15bps for a whole happer? I cant think of many scenarios where 15bps would need to be sustained for any long period of time except for a breakout.

Alright, $20 for a video of five seconds at no less than 15BPS that meets the previously stated requirements by me in this thread.

[yakitori]

Alright, $20 for a video of five seconds at no less than 15BPS that meets the previously stated requirements by me in this thread.

I choose the trigger technique then. It doesnt have to be walking either. OR "pulling" Since Ive said that it can be done raking. Unfortunately My viking only has a razor blade trigger on it, and my Ion is not gonna be extremely easy to do . I will try to get one up w/ me shooting in the backyard w/ my Ion.

ANd that will be an avg of 15bps. Of course there may be some time between shots that you could say it was 12bps or whatever. Does that mean I lose? Why arent you getting it. Im saying that ppl can shoot an AVG of 15bps raking. Is it practical? no. But you are saying that NOBODY can do it. Do you realize what you are saying?

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AnD BEEMER, I give up, Who is it? Please tell me.

And for the kid that got shot w/ 6 balls in the mask from that close. Yes, its not a ramping guns fault. Where I play when you bunker someone you dont light them up like that. That is what the first three shots semi are for in ramping mode. You cant blame that on a gun, but the person using the gun. It couldve very well been done w/ a gun w/o ramping.

And also, if you read the caution warning on ALL gogs, its says that dont use in velocity over 300fps. And if shot directly in the gogs from 10ft away replace lenses.

So, in that case it couldve been a number of things that lead to it. IE, previous hits in the gogs/failure to inspect lenses. Velocity too close to or exceeding 300fps.

Who knows. And that situation would be a rare one. We are taught not to bunker someone in the head. I personally always aim for the pack. And usually when I bunker someone they have their back toward me anyway.

Is there any other legitimate incidents that have happened as a DIRECT result to Ramping?

[bound for glory]

i have my walet out, yak ;)

[yakitori]

If I did it, you would probably accuse me of having it on rebound mode anyway. I dont have anyway to analyze the sound.

I will try to do it, but I only have a digicam that records. Someone will have to analyze the sound for me.

[Lohman446]

If I did it, you would probably accuse me of having it on rebound mode anyway. I dont have anyway to analyze the sound.

I will try to do it, but I only have a digicam that records. Someone will have to analyze the sound for me.


No.. because one of the conditions is seeing the finger movements and "attributing each shot" to a finger movement

PS: and I did not say NOBODY could do it (check carefully), I said only a very select few could do it.

[abunkerer]

A while back over on pbn there was a 1000dollar challenge for anyone who could sustain a legal 15bps...Lots of people got a new perspective on how fast 15bps actually is, because no one was able to pull it off.

I got a M3 chip, I turn the ramp on when Im in a ramp tourney, but I wish I could shut it off after the break, it's a waste of paint.

[Beemer]

I've never seen any studies done on the casualty rate of being attacked by catamount, but I'm willing to bet a lot of money that it's something to avoid. We can't just ignore problems and risks because we don't have studies and data on them. That's some seriously fuzzy logic.

Another sig worthy quote.


why don't i match that 20 spot about the bps vid. hell, i'll throw in 50. i'm an adult, i work. i can do that

Ok I'll match the 50 and another 50 if he lets me do my test on him.
Still want to go with out neck protection?
Dont worry its all for the data and science and we can do it right in the hospital parking lot.

Pay attention now Yak and just maybe you will figure it out.

We dont use shop gogs any more :tard:
Full auto was Banned[ to many multiple hits higher RISK at close range] :argh:

When the range started to decrease the FPS went down. We use to shoot 350 then 325 then 315 then 300 all as the game evolved to closer range shooting. All this at 5 to 10 bps tops if you were fast or even cheated.

Now the range has decreased even more, FPS has stayed the same and BPS has doubled or tripled. You do the math.

Heck you seem like a good guy I'll make it $100 :clap: for the test. After all wouldnt you agree that some testing should be done :shooting:


Being hit multiple times may be unsafe, but who knows this? I've never seen any tests or investigations into it.

Oh ya Yak, on who this is. Your a smart guy. You figure it out. I will tell you this, he knows but will not say for MANY reasons.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/SigPic.jpg

"I've never seen any studies done on the casualty rate of being attacked by catamount, but I'm willing to bet a lot of money that it's something to avoid. We can't just ignore problems and risks because we don't have studies and data on them. That's some seriously fuzzy logic." tyrion2323

[yakitori]

I know who said it. I thought you were gonna pin that quote on me when I didnt say it. Manike said it in a thread about ramping and the 15bps rule. He shortly followed it w/ Guns dont kill ppl, ppl kill ppl.

You do your test on me and then you suffer the consequences for it, then we have a deal. :ninja:

I would have to say that Full auto is not good. Ramping is allowed because of the three shots first are semi and then you have to hit so many balls per second to ramp up to 15. That is why MOST ppl dont ramp on you when they bunker you. ANd like Ive said before, most of the time I bunker someone their back is to me cause they were shooting out the other side when I made my move.

Even then, I dont bunker ppl in the face or neck area. I always aim lower like in the back or the pack.

If someone bunkered me in the face while ramping, then I would prolly get into it w/ them and they wouldnt do it again.

And your sig is very annoying, why do you go through the trouble of copying and pasting it in all of your posts. Can you not follow the rules like everyone else?
:cheers:

[hitech]

Being hit multiple times may be unsafe, but who knows this?
I guess only those that have been hurt by it. Oh, and those who have witnessed it.

[Lohman446]

I guess only those that have been hurt by it. Oh, and those who have witnessed it.

And those smart enough to learn from others mistakes. Unfortunately just because I know its dangerous, doesn't mean I don't do it. I am not adverse to accepting risk, but so many people seem intent on ignoring this risk, and discrediting anything that would indicate it may be a risk.

[SCpoloRicker]

Late to the party, SCpoloRicker is.

Somebody bust out the sound analysis yakitori is asking for.

Please.

And, well, you probably already know what I'd like to say. :rolleyes:

[Lohman446]

Just for note, over chronos my Shockers ramped at 13-14BPS... The Ion seems a touch slower so I am not even sure that all out ramping is at 15BPS, at least SPs rebound mode.

[Phantom_Mag]

In My honest opinion, its quite simple. The more you shoot the less you move. Paintball used to be a game of movement, and some type of agility on a few of the players, i agree it still is but it has changed.

I believe as BPS increases, field awarness decreases. One cannot have there eyes continually moving if they simply shoot near one bunker. Time and time again, i have used my classic mag in NPPL turnies and pop shot people right next to their stream of paint.

Though ramping not legal yet in NPPL, the rate of fire stayed continually high, and yet i have had no problem winning.

Now i cant say that everyonce in a while it wouldnt be nice to have a little quicker marker to get some peopel on the run, but whos to say i would have even been in the position to see them if i had shot more previosly to my move.

My 2 Cents,
PHANTOM