Marketing a high end marker without ramping?

[Lohman446]

Let me state some theoreticals, say I devised an ideal marker tomorrow, and decided to market it... it had all the features you could want but one, for example

1) It weighed like 1.5 lbs
2) It had awesome efficiency - a case and a half or more out of a 45/45
3) It had no noticeable kick
4) It had a perfectly effective anti-chop system
Whatever else... its missing one thing

BUT
It has no ramping, it has no support for ramping or any enhanced firing mode. It is strictly semi-only, you cannot readily write code to it, nor can you "chip it". Could it still compete in the high end market? How much do you think this lack of rampign would hurt its sales?

I ask this, because we, or the manufacturers, are in a dangerous civil (and I beleive criminal) negligence area with the markers that are produced now. I want to know, would the lack of this unapproved mode (by ASTM) hinder sales? How much would it hinder sales?

[Conversekidz]

well as long as the marker could be capped at 15, i would totally be down for buying one.

I have wicked fast fingers thanks to playing so many years with the heavy trigger of a mag, that ramping boards don't help me out all that much other than taking away the skill that I have worked so hard at getting.

[Blazestorm]

Let me state some theoreticals, say I devised an ideal marker tomorrow, and decided to market it... it had all the features you could want but one, for example

1) It weighed like 1.5 lbs
2) It had awesome efficiency - a case and a half or more out of a 45/45
3) It had no noticeable kick
4) It had a perfectly effective anti-chop system
Whatever else... its missing one thing

BUT
It has no ramping, it has no support for ramping or any enhanced firing mode. It is strictly semi-only, you cannot readily write code to it, nor can you "chip it". Could it still compete in the high end market? How much do you think this lack of rampign would hurt its sales?

I ask this, because we, or the manufacturers, are in a dangerous civil (and I beleive criminal) negligence area with the markers that are produced now. I want to know, would the lack of this unapproved mode (by ASTM) hinder sales? How much would it hinder sales?

Yes, then I'd mod it and put a predator2 board inside. :)

You realize that no gun comes with ramping that is intentionally meant to be used in malicious over-firing. Ion is capped at 17, 2 more than the "limit", Intimidators have PSP Ramping and NXL Full Auto, They can be capped and uncapped. They're intended to be used in the NXL and PSP. DM4's and 5's come stock with a semi-auto chip, nothing else. Ego's come with NPPL, PSP, NXL modes etc. similar to the intimidator, but all of those modes are capped at 15, and cannot be uncapped.

There is not a single gun I can think of that has a mode intended to be used outside of certain leagues and be illegal. The Ion's "Rebound" mode is an adjustable version of the PSPS mode.

So I don't see what you're trying to get at, if it really was all of those things, I'd get it, and mod it so I could use it in PSP if I needed.


well as long as the marker could be capped at 15, i would totally be down for buying one.

I have wicked fast fingers thanks to playing so many years with the heavy trigger of a mag, that ramping boards don't help me out all that much other than taking away the skill that I have worked so hard at getting.

I doubt you're going over 15. :)

[Lohman446]

So I don't see what you're trying to get at, if it really was all of those things, I'd get it, and mod it so I could use it in PSP if I needed.

What if I made it so that the bolt had to see the correct board in it to fire, it was not easily copiable, and you simply could not (for whatever technological reasons) mod the thing to ramp... no new boards, nothing of that sort - I realize that this is asking you to take a lot into consideration, but lets say I found a way to do it.

Why? Because I, in producing this theoretical gun, feel that I expose myself to unacceptable criminal and civil negligence risks if one of these is "readily modified" to fire in a mode not approved by the ASTM. IE strict semi-auto only mode

Would it then effect sales, would it keep people from buying it. Its competetively priced, its has all these awesome features, but you simply cannot make it ramp. Does it effect sales?

[68magOwner]

i wouldnt shoot it becaue of the 15bps ramping standards at tourenys i play in.

[RRfireblade]

Think you just need to look at the E/Xmag for your answer. ;)

[warbeak2099]

Yea but it doesn't have great gas efficiency, it isn't 1.5 pounds (nor could it ever be under 2lbs even with ule components), and you can put a predator 2 w/ AFA code in an e/xmag.

[Enemy]

if you could pull all that off and have a large enough trigger like the dms then yes i would buy it!!

[Chronobreak]

spyderframes classic mag?

i heard(dont yell at me if tis wrong) that spydermags get better efficency(shoot into tank deeper) than other mags..not sure if that is ebcause of the ult or what..

ide say a classic spyder-mag could easily fit the listed criteria.

there wouldnt be a HUGE demand for it ofcourse but you could probly sell a few;)

as for the ASTM..this has been ignored for years now,arent all guns suppose to be capped at 13..LEGAL semi, as well as triggers that arent soo sensitve they go off when you jerk the gun etc.

ive seen many guns setup illegaly like taht allowed for tourneys and debounce/bounce w/e modes that arent detected.

i agree something will likely happen soon..these rof are rediculous ex to anyone not decked out in tons of padding that isnt a regular player.

the problem is mainly when the fast guns enter the rec scene and somone takes 12~ or so balls...and in certain areas to younger people or under weird or unnatural circumstances could be VERY harmfull.(i notice these things as a ref)

i would say its not long before astm standards are changed,the current p-ball rules/regulations change, or ASTM standards are finally enforced

[Conversekidz]

So I don't see what you're trying to get at, if it really was all of those things, I'd get it, and mod it so I could use it in PSP if I needed.



I doubt you're going over 15. :)


I'll gladly put money on it that i'm over 15.

[yakitori]

I would prolly buy it if it looked nice and shot well.

It also depends on how much it would cost. If it was similar in price to other high end guns that would have a larger variety of options as far as software goes. Then I would opt to buy something else.

not cause I use ramping, but because If I played in PSP or NXL I would want to have those features. If you didnt offer them, then I would buy something that did.

You wouldnt be able to make a gun like that anyway. Cause if you did make the bolt so that it wouldnt work w/o your nonramp software, there would be an aftermarket bolt that would make the gun capable of doing it. So it would be a waste of time on your behalf.

:argh:

[gc82000]

1) It weighed like 1.5 lbs
2) It had awesome efficiency - a case and a half or more out of a 45/45
3) It had no noticeable kick
4) It had a perfectly effective anti-chop system

5) 30+ bps capablity
6) Battery efficient or rechargable battery
7) Easy to use menu
8) many different colors/fades/designs to choose from as well as the ability to customize
9) Easy adjustible trigger
10) Friendly customer service with global teching services so as to cut down on shipping.
11) Under 1k

If it had these then I would get it. But I doubt this would ever come out.

[mark_1791]

5) 30+ bps capablity
6) Battery efficient or rechargable battery
7) Easy to use menu
8) many different colors/fades/designs to choose from as well as the ability to customize
9) Easy adjustible trigger
10) Friendly customer service with global teching services so as to cut down on shipping.
11) Under 1k

If it had these then I would get it. But I doubt this would ever come out.
12) RELIABLE, easy maintenance

[Glickman]

30bps?


for what? overcompensation? :rolleyes:


except for that an effiency, id say that discribes a shocker pretty well


plus no stock ramping :clap:

[Kevmaster]

Think you just need to look at the E/Xmag for your answer. ;)

so the answer is no....

[BobDoleIsMyHero]

5) 30+ bps capablity

wouldn't that be rather unnecessary since the gun won't ramp and the legal cap is 15 :tard:

seems someone else had the same thought...

[Blazestorm]

I'll gladly put money on it that i'm over 15.

Then do it.

I rarely see people go past 15. They may "hit" 16... but they can't hit that everytime they start using the gun.

I can "hit" 18... without bounce/ramp etc. but I stay consistent around 16... I'm the only person I've seen who can shoot that fast.

[nryche]

as long as it has flair and style, I would buy one.

I still run with a E1 cocker and a mag, so I wouldnt miss having it.

[Lurker27]

The original post sounds like a mech. I wouldn't do it.

[Jotsy]

1) It weighed like 1.5 lbs
2) It had awesome efficiency - a case and a half or more out of a 45/45
3) It had no noticeable kick
4) It had a perfectly effective anti-chop system


isn't that a Speed 05? ;) (i'm exagerating btw)

i'm not really into angels, so i dunno if there are any "chips" availiable for it, but in its stock form, it is semi only.

[Lohman446]

The idea is not the features the marker has, I threw out a list for an example, let me just say it has all the features you could want, except ramping and there was theoretically no way to get ramping. It was cost competetive with the other super markers out there. Does the lack of ramping hinder sales?

Edit: yes this is going somewhere, I just want to see some more opinions on how it would effect sales before I put out my thoughts on this.

[shartley]

It still makes me smile how companies stills seem to want to cater to, and focus on, the smallest portion of the paintball market…

I think that if there was a marker that fit the criteria stated in this thread, but was targeted toward the Rec/Sceanrio/Woods player, it would sell like hotcakes…. IF the price could be kept reasonable. I think the average player (those who don’t think they are “tournament” players because they play on a speedball field and have a couple pals who dress just like them) could care less about tournament rules, ramping, or all the other issues that seem to always worry those who look as if they think they need every “advantage” they can get (and more so if it allows them to not have to work so hard on other skills).

I think the average player wants a reasonably priced marker that is reliable, can fire anywhere between 10-15 bps consistently so they can shoot short bursts of paint, and that fits their “style” preference. I don’t think the average player wants to spend $1000 or more for JUST their marker, and then have to get an air source, and all the other gear needed to play the game. So I think a marker that would meet the stated criteria, and be someplace around $300-$600 base price could very well compete in the OVERALL paintball market, not just have to go “head to head” with what folks who lean toward speedball and “tournament” play think is “the market”.

And that marker could very well hold its own on the speedball field as well.

But it all comes down to who you are trying to SELL the marker to, not just if it WILL sell. Many times products fail not because they are not great products, but because they don’t hit the market at the right time, or they tried to sell it to the wrong demographic.

[Little_Ho]

hi

yes i wouldget one without ramping. Why.....


Well the most Games i play is woods. And there is not really need for speed. But however. If the Marker is light and small and Aftermarket Parts available I would get one.

Little_Ho

[TheTramp]

Ramping is not allowed at any field where I regularly play so If your gun was under $500 I'd buy one.

I like the fact that I can flash the Entropy board in my Timmy with their newest software but I'd give up that ability for a gun like you discribe.

As far as the general comunity goes I think Sartley is right, you've discribed the perfect gun so almost all paintball players would be willing to forego "ramping" for it. I'd bet that even a bunch of "real" tournament players would use it.

[Lohman446]

Let me redefine the question slightly, as I should have the first time, because Shartley did bring up a point, as have others... and its avoided the point I intended to make because of it. It was a poor consideration of the considerations many would make. Now don't take this to be me thinking the tournament community is "where its at" but I do need to more narrowly define it.

Would I be able to sell the marker into the tournament community without ramping?

[TheTramp]

As long as you give a bunch out free to winning teams to play with. ;)

[paintballw13]

I TAKE IT NOBODY HAS SEEN THE [ 68 SUPER ] :shooting:

[SCpoloRicker]

As long as you give a bunch out free to winning teams to play with. ;)

winnah!

[68magOwner]

I TAKE IT NOBODY HAS SEEN THE [ 68 SUPER ] :shooting:
we have, its just that no one cares about it

[Banshee23]

except for that an effiency, id say that discribes a shocker pretty well


plus no stock ramping :clap:

Ummm new stock shockers now come with rebound AKA ramping

Anyway, I would guess that it wouldn't sell to the tourney community. The aftermarket boards out there right now wouldn't be selling so well if people didn't care about having all sorts of special modes on their markers. Current markers aren't hampered by not having stock special firing modes because there's lots of different boards you can just drop in to get them. If that wasn't a possible option on a new gun but all the others out there could still be modded I think the new one's sales would sink like a rock.

[SlartyBartFast]

Would I be able to sell the marker into the tournament community without ramping?

Of course not.

Anybody who competes seriously at any level would have to be an ignoramous of the highest level not to use everything allowed by the rules.

If you were racing cars, would you be dumb enough to use a smaller air restrictor plate than allowed? Would you forgo the use of Turbos if allowed?

Of course not.

[Automaggot68]

Then do it.

I rarely see people go past 15. They may "hit" 16... but they can't hit that everytime they start using the gun.

I can "hit" 18... without bounce/ramp etc. but I stay consistent around 16... I'm the only person I've seen who can shoot that fast.


You've also got one of the largest ego's around, blaze.

[Lohman446]

I asked the question if you could make a gun that was otherwise "better than any other marker" but did not have ramping would you be able to sell it to tournament players. I am going to use Slarty's answer because I think it represents a view point that, well extreme, may be held by others. For the record, at this point I belive a few players at the highest level will not use ramping for non-performance reasons (ASTM standards violation) but I also beleive they are few and far between.


Of course not.

Anybody who competes seriously at any level would have to be an ignoramous of the highest level not to use everything allowed by the rules.

If you were racing cars, would you be dumb enough to use a smaller air restrictor plate than allowed? Would you forgo the use of Turbos if allowed?

Of course not.


Let me say this now... I am in no way affiliated with AGD or Tom Kaye, nor do I presume to speak for them. We know or beleive this

1) A ramping marker is in CLEAR violation of ASTM standards
2) Violation of ASTM standards, without scientific testing to support that violation, puts us in severe jeopardy of civil negligence should (when) someone is hurt. Even if ramping was not directly at fault its existence on the marker responsible will be used to show negligence. Some of us also beleive that it may make us criminally negligent.
3) Tom Kaye is not judgement proof... he has a responsibility to his family to support them, as well as much more than when he started paintball some time ago. He has to be well aware of civil and criminal liabilities that he exposes himself to/
4) Selling a marker without ramping to the tournament crowd will present a unique challenge, perhaps insurmountable. Couple this with other marketing aspects and the risk to reward status of marketing towards tournament production is dismal. At least if one considers the possible negligence issues.

With that known, is it any surprise that AGD, and TK do not want to market to the tournament crowd? Why they did not bother being at Tampa, and may not be at large tournament gatherings. AGD has what could arguably be one of the best scenario markers available... is it any surprise that they have gone towards this market, which some indicate represents far more people than the tournament crowd? To me, contradictory ASTM standards and performance allowances in PSP rules (and possibly others later on) makes marketing to the tournament crowd a dangerous proposition. Can you market to just part of the tournament crowd, the NPPL crowd? Sure you can, but can you survive if you cut in half what is already a niche market?

[Blazestorm]

Another note, I could make it work, no matter what.

That's like trying to sell someone a gun they can't upgrade.

I don't understand what you're trying to achieve?

If I can't use it in PSP I doubt I'd buy it...

[Lohman446]

Another note, I could make it work, no matter what.

That's like trying to sell someone a gun they can't upgrade.

I understand what you are saying here, and your right, I am dealing in theoreticals, I am sure given enough time and money it could be upgraded to ramp, but I needed to theoretically say it could not be. Not realistically, but in theory


I don't understand what you're trying to achieve?

If I can't use it in PSP I doubt I'd buy it...

And that sentence, is what I was trying to acheive... for illustration purposes. For proof of theory. I beleived this was a strong sentiment out there, I just wanted to see if I was right. Thank you.

[SlartyBartFast]

I asked the question if you could make a gun that was otherwise "better than any other marker" but did not have ramping would you be able to sell it to tournament players.

Well that's the catch isn't it.

At 15bps, with ramping and eyes, there's no such thing as a marker that's "better than any other marker".

And ASTM? Most consumers don't know what CSA and UL testing means. The only reason they don't buy non-tested and non-conforming electronics is because it's against the law to sell non-conforming products.

Until the ASTM standards are enforced by law, they're of ZERO consequence to the average player.

[Conversekidz]

Then do it.

I rarely see people go past 15. They may "hit" 16... but they can't hit that everytime they start using the gun.

I can "hit" 18... without bounce/ramp etc. but I stay consistent around 16... I'm the only person I've seen who can shoot that fast.


Blaze I can only say one thing, you must be the ultimate pb player and the fastest person on the face of the planet when it comes to paintball.

i bow to you oh great master of the paintball!!!:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

[Lohman446]

And ASTM? Most consumers don't know what CSA and UL testing means. The only reason they don't buy non-tested and non-conforming electronics is because it's against the law to sell non-conforming products.

Until the ASTM standards are enforced by law, they're of ZERO consequence to the average player.

But to the manufacturer who could be sued for civil negligence (pretty easy to prove if you violated accepted industry standards)? I disagree with you about the player's lack of negligence, but lets agree to disagree on that for now, what about the manufacturer who knew, or should have known had due diligence been used, of the industry accepted standards?

[shartley]

I asked the question if you could make a gun that was otherwise "better than any other marker" but did not have ramping would you be able to sell it to tournament players. I am going to use Slarty's answer because I think it represents a view point that, well extreme, may be held by others. For the record, at this point I belive a few players at the highest level will not use ramping for non-performance reasons (ASTM standards violation) but I also beleive they are few and far between.

Let me say this now... I am in no way affiliated with AGD or Tom Kaye, nor do I presume to speak for them. We know or beleive this

1) A ramping marker is in CLEAR violation of ASTM standards
2) Violation of ASTM standards, without scientific testing to support that violation, puts us in severe jeopardy of civil negligence should (when) someone is hurt. Even if ramping was not directly at fault its existence on the marker responsible will be used to show negligence. Some of us also beleive that it may make us criminally negligent.
3) Tom Kaye is not judgement proof... he has a responsibility to his family to support them, as well as much more than when he started paintball some time ago. He has to be well aware of civil and criminal liabilities that he exposes himself to/
4) Selling a marker without ramping to the tournament crowd will present a unique challenge, perhaps insurmountable. Couple this with other marketing aspects and the risk to reward status of marketing towards tournament production is dismal. At least if one considers the possible negligence issues.

With that known, is it any surprise that AGD, and TK do not want to market to the tournament crowd? Why they did not bother being at Tampa, and may not be at large tournament gatherings. AGD has what could arguably be one of the best scenario markers available... is it any surprise that they have gone towards this market, which some indicate represents far more people than the tournament crowd? To me, contradictory ASTM standards and performance allowances in PSP rules (and possibly others later on) makes marketing to the tournament crowd a dangerous proposition. Can you market to just part of the tournament crowd, the NPPL crowd? Sure you can, but can you survive if you cut in half what is already a niche market?
First of all, didn’t Tom Kaye RETIRE? I thought he was no longer a part of AGD and that Dave is now the one who would, or would not, market to tournament players.

As for AGD “arguably having one of the best scenario markers available”, you got one part correct… arguably. AGD does NOT have one of the finest scenario markers available. Just slapping on a body that accepts scopes and other items seen on other scenario markers does not make it one of the best. In fact, it falls short of many scenario markers on the market for many reasons.

And as I see it, AGD did not suddenly decide to hit the largest market in paintball play, they simply fell back to it because they were unable to compete in the demographic they were actually trying for… tournament play. And the quick solution was to make a new body that would accept some of the things scenario players want on their markers… but the marker itself is still the same marker it was when they ignored it in favor of their e-series markers…. the RT Pro.

Now don’t get me wrong, the RT Pro is one of the finest markers on the market. But that does not make it one of the best scenario markers just because you can now put a scope and other stuff on it. Take a look at some of the true scenario markers on the market and you will see a drastic difference. The Tac-One is a great rec/woodsball marker, no doubt, but it is only TRYING to be a scenario marker IMHO. But like I said, it falls short on many aspects when put up against other scenario markers. It is AGD’s attempt to salvage something, and not in my opinion a truly planned move. It is reactive, not proactive.

I wish them nothing but the best, but this latest move was not one of “brilliance” and “foresight” but one of self preservation.

[Lohman446]

Shartley, I agree with you in motivation, I think that AGD was at a point (whoever is in charge, from whisperings about patent ownership that seems in question) that they needed to decide to move hard into the tournament scene, perhaps wit a new design, perhaps with ramping, or try something new. To me the requirements of a scenario gun are different - mechanical for reliability, strong, and reasonably easy maintenance. Couple this with the X-valve and an anti-chop system (I hate LX btw) and you have an awesome performer. Its big drawback, nitro necessary. But its an argument I understand, I see a strong argument for it being one of the top scenario markers (even without the LX body). I may be way off one what scenario players want though, you would surely know better than I from your experience

[shartley]

Shartley, I agree with you in motivation, I think that AGD was at a point (whoever is in charge, from whisperings about patent ownership that seems in question) that they needed to decide to move hard into the tournament scene, perhaps wit a new design, perhaps with ramping, or try something new. To me the requirements of a scenario gun are different - mechanical for reliability, strong, and reasonably easy maintenance. Couple this with the X-valve and an anti-chop system (I hate LX btw) and you have an awesome performer. Its big drawback, nitro necessary. But its an argument I understand, I see a strong argument for it being one of the top scenario markers (even without the LX body). I may be way off one what scenario players want though, you would surely know better than I from your experience
If AGD does try for the tournament market again they should really wait a few years minimum in my opinion. They already gave it a shot and failed. And too many people will remember this. I would recommend doing development but keeping things under wraps until the rest of the manufacturers on that market get through working out all the legal bugs and a standard is truly set. Because as it is now, we do not have any followed standard that holds true across the board.

And don’t misunderstand me, the Tac-One is a great marker, and a good scenario marker. It is a step in the right direction. But again, put up against the other scenario markers on the market, it just falls short of being one of the best. It CAN be with time and changes though, and I have no doubt that AGD is probably looking into it.

Your mentioning reliance on HPA though has always been one of the things I felt AGD was hurting themselves with. If the market had switched over to ALL HPA setups they would have had it made, but the rec market still relies heavily on CO2. And honestly for me, it is more cost effective to just buy a new 20oz. CO2 tank every time their dates expire than it is to invest in a HPA setup and then have to go through having it hydroed again and again.

But those are issues probably deserving their own threads. LOL

I hope that makes my position a bit clearer for those who may have misunderstood where I was coming from and trying to say.