Serious Thoughts of Modern Paintball - Please Give Some Feedback

[MadPSIence]

Please just hit the little X-Button if you feel the need to flame, insult or what-not. I'm looking for open minded intelligent discussion in here. I trust that AO is one of the few paintball sites left where this is possible, thank you

With all the discussion about the legal BPS, ramping, full auto and rules in paintball now I thought I'd post up an idea as well as my opinion aside from the clutter.

first I want to give my opinion on the speed of guns, firing modes, ramping and safety.

To start, I am thoroughly against ramping. I do believe it takes away from the sport, for the exact reasons most people against it would suggest. I am against it for 2 reasons. The first being that I believe it really does change the game in terms of play (fun factor) and safety. For one, with ramping on it's a no brainer to bring your gun up to 15bps (using legal #'s here) and sustain it until you run your hopper dry. I think this is really going to rob a lot of (not all) people's games by turning gameplay into a match of camping (little movement due to a hundred balls in the air at all times with such insane speeds) and due to the ability to do so; having the power to sit in place and act as a human machine gun turret.

On the safety issue of ramping I understand there has been a debate on it's safety but I have my own reasons for deeming it moderately dangerous (not 100%.. but often.. think yellow alert) Imagine this scenario.. 2 players are 35 feet apart behind bunkers snap shooting at each other.. one player is ramping his shots when the other player peeks out. He starts walking and within an instant it's ramping.. suddenly the other player sticks out too far and is hit.. but there is a STREAM of balls coming at him at say 285fps and human reaction time in this situation is maybe .500 let's say..add the time it takes to MOVE to the R/T. Now if the other player has ramped up to 15bps and is shooting.. and say after 2.5 seconds of firing comes the point when the other player pokes his torso out and gets hit... there are a TON of balls in the air coming at him. So even if the shooting player stops shooting after the hit.. which will take time due to his reaction time of seeing the other guy is out... you have ample time for 15-30 balls to hit the other player. Depending on accuracy and say quick reaction time.. say 20 hit him.

20 balls at 285fps.. jesus mary and joseph. I think ramping programs should be limited to 8-9bps. The idea behind ramping is to make it easier to get speed up while running or maneuvering. It shouldn't be to jack up your speed when you should be in a position to use your natural skill. If you're gonna cheat nature and have the ramping on you should pay the price by having it capped at a safe speed/fair speed. I'll leave ramping at that.. I'm not going to become an activist or anything that's just my thoughts.. I have much more to post about.

BPS Limits - I think that 15bps is very fast.. but you know what it's fair. Some people can pull 15bps peaks naturally and can average 13-14 bps over a short time. It's unfair to force someone to not use the skill they have. If you can legally pull 16bps.. I think you should be allowed. I know there's probably nobody that can shoot 16 or higher so I think that if ramping and bounce didn't exist.. it should be legal. Sadly with ramping allowed in some leagues.. there needs to be a limit. I think it would be something if BPS was uncapped.. and full auto and ramping got kicked right the F out, or as I mentioned above, cap ramping at 8 or 9 bps and keep the 15bps rule in place. It's impossible to cap ramping and not semi and properly officiate a game.

Before ramping came along paintball was a fast and fun sport already. But you'll notice people didn't complain because to shoot fast YOU had to be fast. I think guns are slowly becoming uncontrollable to rookie and novice players, especially youngsters. Sad thing is anyone can get a hold of one too. I hate seeing an electro in the hands of anyone under 16 (with a few exceptions) nowadays because of the responsibility required to safely use a gun that can shoot someone 25 times in one second.

Don't get me wrong I'm not some old woodsballer trying to bring back the pump days, but enough is enough.

In baseball you can't use steroids or cork a bat.
In hockey there are rules on the curve of a stick.
In basketball you can't put springs in your shoes.
In golf you can't use cheater balls for huge distance.

Would these things improve a players performance? yes. But they would rob the game of any respect or honor.

Paintball is becoming a lawless sport. In terms of protective equipment the industry has succeeded in protecting players while not being ridiculous (guaranteed bounce, splatter-proof, easy to wipe etc...) It's the marker manufactuers that are smearing the honor of the game.

There's a reason other sports get big and have hundreds of millions (maybe a billion or 2 for some) of fans and followers. TRADITION. Tradition in paintball is something mostly remembered and not practiced. In other sports, equipment is fashioned in accordance to rules. In paintball rules are fashioned weekly in accordance to equipment, this is a problem

[68magOwner]

i dint read your whole post, but from what i skimmed, you want thoughts on #1-ramping #2- high bps in general

#1- i for one am not a big fan of ramping, even though I use psp modes in tourenys which it is intended for, i still much prefer playing in semi (partly because i have spent years developing gunfighting/shooting skills which are now somewhat neglected by ramping) I see plenty of kids who, pre-ramping were'nt very good players go out and beat guys who were concidered very good 1v1 and from what i can tell, this is based solely on the ramping making up for the inferior player's lack of gunhandling ability

#2- high ROF in general, if i had it my way, everything would be un-capped, but, everyone would have to shoot in a legal firing mode (rare now a days) i would feel much better getting laned out buy a guy who can shoot 20bps legally (really hard to come by) than some nit wit shooting 15 while picking his nose with his other hand.

[teufelhunden]

Please just hit the little X-Button if you feel the need to flame, insult or what-not. I'm looking for open minded intelligent discussion in here. I trust that AO is one of the few paintball sites left where this is possible, thank you

With all the discussion about the legal BPS, ramping, full auto and rules in paintball now I thought I'd post up an idea as well as my opinion aside from the clutter.

first I want to give my opinion on the speed of guns, firing modes, ramping and safety.

To start, I am thoroughly against ramping. I do believe it takes away from the sport, for the exact reasons most people against it would suggest. I am against it for 2 reasons. The first being that I believe it really does change the game in terms of play (fun factor) and safety. For one, with ramping on it's a no brainer to bring your gun up to 15bps (using legal #'s here) and sustain it until you run your hopper dry. I think this is really going to rob a lot of (not all) people's games by turning gameplay into a match of camping (little movement due to a hundred balls in the air at all times with such insane speeds) and due to the ability to do so; having the power to sit in place and act as a human machine gun turret.
Yeah, that NXL, lots of camping there.. oh, and they were the first ones to allow 15bps ramping. The format, not the rules, will dictate how the game is played.

On the safety issue of ramping I understand there has been a debate on it's safety but I have my own reasons for deeming it moderately dangerous (not 100%.. but often.. think yellow alert) Imagine this scenario.. 2 players are 35 feet apart behind bunkers snap shooting at each other.. one player is ramping his shots when the other player peeks out. He starts walking and within an instant it's ramping.. suddenly the other player sticks out too far and is hit.. but there is a STREAM of balls coming at him at say 285fps and human reaction time in this situation is maybe .500 let's say..add the time it takes to MOVE to the R/T. Now if the other player has ramped up to 15bps and is shooting.. and say after 2.5 seconds of firing comes the point when the other player pokes his torso out and gets hit... there are a TON of balls in the air coming at him. So even if the shooting player stops shooting after the hit.. which will take time due to his reaction time of seeing the other guy is out... you have ample time for 15-30 balls to hit the other player. Depending on accuracy and say quick reaction time.. say 20 hit him.Your R/T numbers are far too high, watch drag racing. Plus, maybe fatso with the backpack warp will take 2 seconds, but you're discrediting the average paintballer with these numbers. As for safety, look around for Manike's posts. Our gear can handle what's being shot at it. If you're out there with exposed nuts and no mask, you're taking that risk. Hell, most of us take extra risk by not wearing a neck guard, but it's available if we want.

20 balls at 285fps.. jesus mary and joseph. I think ramping programs should be limited to 8-9bps. The idea behind ramping is to make it easier to get speed up while running or maneuvering. It shouldn't be to jack up your speed when you should be in a position to use your natural skill. If you're gonna cheat nature and have the ramping on you should pay the price by having it capped at a safe speed/fair speed. I'll leave ramping at that.. I'm not going to become an activist or anything that's just my thoughts.. I have much more to post about.

BPS Limits - I think that 15bps is very fast.. but you know what it's fair. Some people can pull 15bps peaks naturally and can average 13-14 bps over a short time. It's unfair to force someone to not use the skill they have. If you can legally pull 16bps.. I think you should be allowed. I know there's probably nobody that can shoot 16 or higher so I think that if ramping and bounce didn't exist.. it should be legal. Sadly with ramping allowed in some leagues.. there needs to be a limit. I think it would be something if BPS was uncapped.. and full auto and ramping got kicked right the F out, or as I mentioned above, cap ramping at 8 or 9 bps and keep the 15bps rule in place. It's impossible to cap ramping and not semi and properly officiate a game.That whole thing with uncapped semi.. they tried that. Kinda, for a while. Like, that's why we have legal ramp rules now, because it's becoming next to impossible to detect ramp modes. Do you really think if you say "OK guys, uncapped semi but 9bps ramp".. people will play honestly and say 'OK, let me turn up my debounce!!' No, they'll get out their Speedy chips and that's that, just like last season.

Before ramping came along paintball was a fast and fun sport already. But you'll notice people didn't complain because to shoot fast YOU had to be fast. I think guns are slowly becoming uncontrollable to rookie and novice players, especially youngsters. Sad thing is anyone can get a hold of one too. I hate seeing an electro in the hands of anyone under 16 (with a few exceptions) nowadays because of the responsibility required to safely use a gun that can shoot someone 25 times in one second.

Don't get me wrong I'm not some old woodsballer trying to bring back the pump days, but enough is enough.

In baseball you can't use steroids or cork a bat.
In hockey there are rules on the curve of a stick.
In basketball you can't put springs in your shoes.
In golf you can't use cheater balls for huge distance.
Yeah, can't use roids. Can't cork a bat. Hm, can't think of anybody who's done that recently. Can't also think of anybody who, oh, cross checked someone discretely or gets into a fight with somoene to put them in the box. Nike Shox? No, no cheater balls, but you can have 4,000mL drivers.

Would these things improve a players performance? yes. But they would rob the game of any respect or honor.

Paintball is becoming a lawless sport. In terms of protective equipment the industry has succeeded in protecting players while not being ridiculous (guaranteed bounce, splatter-proof, easy to wipe etc...) It's the marker manufactuers that are smearing the honor of the game. No, it's the players. The manufacturers produce what is demanded of them. If there was no demand for ramp, nobody would make it. But there's money to be made, and these are BUSINESSES that exist to MAKE MONEY

There's a reason other sports get big and have hundreds of millions (maybe a billion or 2 for some) of fans and followers. TRADITION. Tradition in paintball is something mostly remembered and not practiced. In other sports, equipment is fashioned in accordance to rules. In paintball rules are fashioned weekly in accordance to equipment, this is a problem

More later, off to ROTS.

[Nexus]

I think this topic has been discussed pretty thoroughly, but your post is definitely one of the most intelligent and thorough ones I have seen. I also happen to entirely agree, so I am a bit biased. I liked the part where you compared paintball to other sports. There seems to be a general feeling amoung paintbal players that if the majority does not mind ramping, then who cares? Admittedly, equipment is far more important in paintball than most other sports, but it still must be limited. If there were no limitations on equipment in traditional sports, you would quickly see jump-assists in basketball, self-propelled gold balls, and other things of that nature (ok, maybe those are extreme examples).

You have to draw a ling somewhere with regards to equipment to ensure that the majority of the game relies on personal skill and skill as a team, not who has the newest gaget. Yes, high quality guns make a noticable difference, but good golf clubs help alot too. You still have to draw a line somewhere. Although, you still have to decide where to draw the line. The best argument I have seen is the one regarding safety. Eventually, super fast shooting guns will simply not be safe. There are many other arguments, but I think more people can understand and agree with safety issues than other reasons.

[MadPSIence]

[QUOTE=teufelhunden] - content - [QUOTE]

in reguards to your reply about rules and cheating in other sports.. you're right not many corked bats or illegal things pop up. It's because in those sports there is an actual sense of tradition and an honor system. (not to mention greater consequences for cheating). Frankly, and quote me for this, tourney ballers are some of the most careless sportsman when it's come to any sort of traditionalism or honor in the game. don't get me wrong most pro-ballers are respectable and well mannered athletes (albeit spoiled celebrities) but when youngsters are just as capable of using this equipment.. seriously. 15 year olds (and younger & older) don't give (or know) 2 craps about an honor system or anything.

[RoamingStorm]

i think paintball is less fun than it was in past years, i say you dont need a gun that can shoot 100 bps, get something accurate, that you like, personally im trying to get a phantom, and organize a 10 man pump game at a forest by my house, that would be fun not listening to some guy hope he hits you because hes firing 100 balls in your general direction

keep in mind all opinions i have stated are mine i do not need or wish for criticism

[MadPSIence]

I think this topic has been discussed pretty thoroughly, but your post is definitely one of the most intelligent and thorough ones I have seen. I also happen to entirely agree, so I am a bit biased. I liked the part where you compared paintball to other sports. There seems to be a general feeling amoung paintbal players that if the majority does not mind ramping, then who cares? Admittedly, equipment is far more important in paintball than most other sports, but it still must be limited. If there were no limitations on equipment in traditional sports, you would quickly see jump-assists in basketball, self-propelled gold balls, and other things of that nature (ok, maybe those are extreme examples).

You have to draw a ling somewhere with regards to equipment to ensure that the majority of the game relies on personal skill and skill as a team, not who has the newest gaget. Yes, high quality guns make a noticable difference, but good golf clubs help alot too. You still have to draw a line somewhere. Although, you still have to decide where to draw the line. The best argument I have seen is the one regarding safety. Eventually, super fast shooting guns will simply not be safe. There are many other arguments, but I think more people can understand and agree with safety issues than other reasons.

I agree with you and would like to also add I wish paintball would follow the example of other sports. Like.. take Formula 2 or GT350 for example. Cars are limited to certain specs.. so that driving skill does become the winning factor. Allowing ramping in paintball is like putting an (hypothetical) autopilot in a racecar. It takes the load off of you.. and when EVERYONE has ramping - you basically have a racetrack with everycar on auto pilot pile every driver sits back and taps buttons. Perhaps not to that extreme but the more you move down the ladder from pro to novice the more evident the lack of skill used is seen,

[rx2]

Back in my day, we carved our markers out of wood, and used a bellows to fire. We got 10 seconds per round, and that's the way we liked it...

Sure, things can get ridiculous at times, but the sport is evolving. I know that, for some people, it sucks going to a field to play with people with ramping and full auto. I also know that you can't always find a field with regulations or different classes of play. I am sure that it gets frustrating not being able to play with others who use true semi setups. But that is the way things go.

Since other sports have been brought up, consider the radical changes in gear over the years in football, hockey, golf, and even boxing. I know a lot of old timers who complain that today’s players are a bunch of women, what with all of their high-tech, lightweight padding and protection. Back in their day, you didn't have fancy form-fitting skates and cleated shoes with special four-layer sole construction. And what is with these boxers, using gloves? They used to use bare knuckles. Oh, we can't forget the fact that back then, they raced on cobblestone, in cars that only went 50 miles per hour, not like these sissies today with paved roads, and onboard computers.

To these fans of the old tradition, today's competitors in sports seem to have no skill, and rely completely on gear. Well, the thing is, the skill doesn't just disappear. It has to go somewhere. You see, playing adapts. The skill is still there. Instead of it being focused on shot control so much, it shifts to other areas. After all, when you have others using the same gear, you no longer have a gear advantage, and thus can only win by being more skilled with the gear you have (or getting lucky, or cheating, but that is another matter). If it is easier to shoot these days, then perhaps there is more skill in avoiding being shot, or getting position.

You see, things change, and, inevitably, there will be those who cannot or will not adapt. That is their choice, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, to suggest it is a bad thing is making a statement of a purely subjective nature.

Now, I know that some keep bringing up a safety issue, but there has yet to be any evidence that 15 bps is less safe than 11, or whatever number that one might be able to sustain with no help. And supposing there is, measure could easily be put in place that would up the safety gear to a level that far surpasses any risk involved firing at whatever bps you can think of, just the same way that padding and helmets have been improved to deal with bigger, and stronger athletes in other sports.

There isn't anything intrinsically wrong with faster markers or electronic assistance. It is undesirable to some, yet quite acceptable for others. It does change the dynamics of the game, but the skill is still there - it has just shifted. The same goes for tactics (we don't stand in rank and file in battle, anymore, but it still takes skill to win a war). Really, it is only a matter of preference.

One last remark - some say that the fact that 12 year olds can "compete" with more experienced players shows that the markers are taking away the skill. Firstly, I really don't know of any first-year teams of 14 year olds that go on to dominate the tournaments. Secondly, I should say that when I started playing, way back in 93 (see, I am a relative old timer, too), I had no problem taking out many of the more experienced players, and I was using a VM-68, while they had these shiny new wonder markers known as Automags. Even back then, it was possible for a twelve year old to hold his own. Why? Well, believe it or not, paintball has never been a sport dictated by physical prowess alone.

Oh, I need to add that button tapping takes skill, too. If it didn't, everyone would be a video game wizard.

[tyrion2323]

My thoughts:

- Not good, not bad. Ramping is ramping. If you don't want to play in a game with it, you have that choice. I'm not particularly impressed with ramping, and I think that the PSP, CFOA and NXL all chickened out of really standing up to trends. I would not have allowed it. That being said, it's allowed, and therefore it isn't cheating. I, myself, am considering purchasing a ramping board.

- Who's fault? Don't blame the manufacturers...blame the players. The market is entirely up to players. I have no facts or statistics, but I can make a reasonable guess that a large percentage of speedball and tournament players fall into the 13-17 age range, which leads me to believe that possibly the reasons behind the prevalance of ramping (and cheating, as well) is the different mindset that they come to the field with.

- But wait! Before we blame the kids, let's take a look at the Pros. I have very little respect for most professional teams in paintball. It has, for a large part, become more about the image of paintball than the actual game. Lasoya, Lang, whoever - they're bad role models. They openly cheat, use illegal guns, and more. And the worst part is, it's not even taboo! Dynasty can get called for a serious infraction of the rules, and nobody stands up and says, "we've got to stop this."

[Crazy]

My thoughts:
- But wait! Before we blame the kids, let's take a look at the Pros. I have very little respect for most professional teams in paintball. It has, for a large part, become more about the image of paintball than the actual game. Lasoya, Lang, whoever - they're bad role models. They openly cheat, use illegal guns, and more. And the worst part is, it's not even taboo! Dynasty can get called for a serious infraction of the rules, and nobody stands up and says, "we've got to stop this."

So your telling me that the -100 points along with the two event suspension of Opie Loughran, and causing dynasty dynamics to play with 6 for 6 games is considered openly cheating and using illegal guns?

[shartley]

I think one of the problems seen in discussions like this is that folks try to bring tournament play or one league or another into the argument. The simple fact of the matter is that the majority of paintball is not being played in tournaments. The majority of paintball is not being played by “professionals” (or those who would like to think they are).

So if ramping and all other issues being discussed (as well as “rules”) ONLY affected tournament play, I would not have a problem with it. Let them bring down their relatively small (although admittedly quite visual) segment of the paintball scene. But sadly they don’t. When you walk into a paintball shop you don’t have one section for “tournament markers only” and another for “everything else”. You simply have paintball markers. Sure, they are usually arranged by type of play or general looks, (as well as price) but that is not the same as “tournament only”. And any paintball marker can be used for any format of play, and at any “level” of play.

Speaking of “levels”, I also find it laughable that some players consider tournament play (of any kind) at a higher “level” than any other form of paintball. They get online (or even offline) and speak down to others who are not “tournament” players as if they don’t know anything about paintball or don’t have any skills because they choose not to play speedball or in tournaments.

Simply put, you only have “levels” within playing types, not between them. And you will find different skill levels within each playing style and game, but moving from one to the other does not in itself increase your “position” in the paintball world, nor make you at a higher “level” of play than anyone else.

You have players in every style of play that are good, and those that are not. You have players with every level/type of paintball marker that are good, and those that are not. And the type of game you play does not determine whether you are better or worse than any other player… nor does your equipment.

I think it is time players take an honest look at the sport and where they really fit in. And I think it is time manufacturers take a hard look at the reality of who is playing and what their equipment can do for the sport. It can help it, or it can hurt it. The idea that they are simply providing what the public wants is hogwash. The public will buy what you make available to them. There are some things that you can indeed do because it is wanted, but a responsible manufacturer will not provide those things that they know to be unsafe, or detrimental to the sport.

And at this point, I see a lot of irresponsible manufacturers out there. But then again, until their irresponsibility hits them in the wallet, they obviously could care less. And that is sad.

[Lohman446]

My thoughts on ramping and high BPS. It is most definetly a skill to pull high BPS, and it most definetly can and does have an outcome on games to a point. I have a problem with the fact that that is a skill that can win paintball. It seems overly concentrated on, I think people overevaluate how much of a skill it is. Either way, I like the idea that ramping, capped at a reasonable number (argue later if 15BPS is reasonable), levels the playing field and takes this "skill" away from being a determing factor. Maybe its the fact that I can't pull, nor do I think I can pull, 15BPS that makes me like this rule.

Ramping... I don't know that ramping represents a danger. I think that it might be acceptably safe. However, we live in a litagous (sp) society, one that often has politically driven district attorneys. At this point I have not seen any scientific testing that indicates to me that ramping is acceptably safe, or one that would even outline the dangers we seem to accept. The ASTM has set up accepted standards for the industry (at the industry's request?). Violating these standards, without scientific backing, represents what should be to most a civil negligence risk that is unacceptable. I also maintain that violation of these standards represents a criminal negligence risk that should be troublesome to most people.

What have I said? I have not said that ramping is necessarily dangerous. Playing paintball represents a degree of obvious and inherent risk. However, violating ASTM standards is risky, for legal reasons. My thoughts on ramping are less defined - they need not be. I know the risks of ramping, and they are both on and off field.

[Maggot6]

I agree with everyone in this thread, everything has a valid point But the thing I would like to see changed the most, is instead of a 15 bps ramp, I'd like it somewhere between 10-12. Becuase that is how fast the average player shoots during a game (for short periods of course) So that the semi people would be a bit more happy.

[shartley]

If a boxer can throw a lot of punches and very fast, does that make him a good boxer? Sure, if he throws enough SOMETHING will land, right? But again, did that make him the better “boxer”? Does that make him the one with more “skill”?

The same is true with paintball. Sure, it takes “skill” to shoot fast, but what does that really mean? I think folks toss out the word “skill” far too often when it comes to paintball.

I also think that “team” paintball (as in tournaments) takes more TEAM skill than individual skills. When a TEAM wins, it shows they have practiced working together using a particular tactic to eliminate the opposing team. Now what if you took players from several winning teams and stuck them together for one game? Would they win against let’s say a team that takes 3rd consistently but never 1st, ,simply because they are all “from winning teams”? I would argue that they would not.

And could winning teams still be able to win tournaments if everyone was reduced to slightly lower ROFs? YES. And I would argue that it would probably make the games more interesting, both for players and spectators alike.

People in the paintball world, in my opinion, also assign greatness or reasons for things on stuff that simply is not accurate. Want to see a true test of “skills”? Take a paintball player and put them on a REC field with players that have never played together. And make those players SEASONED players.. on BOTH sides. Now go play.

You will see that “teamwork” is now put secondary to individual skills. Sure you have to work as a team, but because none of the players have worked with each other, they must rely upon their own playing skills as opposed to rehearsed and practiced teamwork.

Also, ROF issues to me are not simply issues about ROFs. I think part of the problem is also how players use that ROF. And honestly manufacturers do not control that. But with the increased ease at which players (with NO practice) can reach blazing fast ROFs now days it accents issues that have been around for quite a long time. The ease at which high ROFs can be obtained did not CAUSE the problem, it only exaggerates it. But that in itself IS a problem to address as well.

Hosing the field has been around since the overall switch to CA and the introduction of motorized hoppers. And to me, it takes no more skill ( in fact less ) now days to hose the field with 15+ bps than it did to hose the field with 10 bps in years past. The skill level has not risen one bit. But with that said, other skills (such as snap shooting, movement, and fire control) have seemed to lower on the average field….. but still exist and are an important part of the game. And these can still be done using the new equipment. It actually enhances these skills and makes players who are truly interested in increasing their overall skills work harder at it.

Players can now snapshoot 10 balls in less time than it took them to do so in years past. But with that, they should also get BETTER at doing it since they take less time to do it. That is unless they want to spend the same amount of time snapshooting, and put more balls downrange while doing so. But to me, that is part of the problem. Are folks following me? The amount of balls should be the SAME, only the time taken to do so should be reduced. With the reduction of time, it takes more skill to put those balls on target.

While I do think manufacturers have a responsibility to develop safe equipment, I think it is also up to the player to regulate how that equipment is being used. The biggest problem though in this, is that I don’t think the average player WILL regulate responsibly how they use that equipment. Heck, if the marker CAN shoot that fast, why not dump as much paint as you can at those speeds, right? After all, that shows how much “better” a player you are and that you have “sick skillz” right?

Well, for me, that is not my style. And I feel that style is detrimental to the sport. That is also part of the reason I formed the LPPC (Limited Paint Players Club). It is not about what type of marker you use, nor how fast you can shoot. It is about using the least amount of paint as you can to do what needs to be done. If 10 balls can do the job, don’t shoot 20. It is also not about the type of game you play (speedball, rec, scenario, woods, tournament, etc.) it is about how you PLAY those games relative to the actual requirements of them.

The LPPC has members from all forms of play, and who use all types of equipment. It is about how you choose to play the game….. and I believe paintball as a whole needs to really reign in some of its players…. before the Government decides to do so. And the easiest way to do that is with the help of manufacturers. The minds of players need to be changes as much as the equipment they are using… or nothing will improve.

“Because you can” simply is not good enough any more.

[tyrion2323]

So your telling me that the -100 points along with the two event suspension of Opie Loughran, and causing dynasty dynamics to play with 6 for 6 games is considered openly cheating and using illegal guns?

Am I telling you that Opie Laughran getting caught with an Illegal gun is "considered openly cheating and using an illegal gun"?
Do I really need to answer that?

WARNING: I get long and boring for the rest of this post. I make lots of statements and use lots of space. If you're not interested in my contempt for cheating, skip this post.

I'll break it down for ya.

Did he use an Illegal gun? Yes
Was it pretty obvious? Yes
Does this happen to Dynasty frequently? Yes
Is Dynasty well-versed enough in paintball to know the rules? Yes.
Aside from a two-event suspension, will Dynasty be punished? No.
Has this blatant cheating even fazed the community? No
When Sammy Sosa was using a Corked bat, was it a big deal? Yes
When Pro teams cheat and wipe, is it looked down upon? Not particularly
Do kids emulate pro teams by cheating, ramping and poor conduct and sportsmanship? Yes

We've all seen pros cheat. Ollie Lang cheats. Chris Lasoya cheats. Friggin' everybody cheats.

Question(s):

Does cheating diminish the sportmanship of a player? Yes
Does tolerating cheating diminish the honor of the game? Yes

When we find that an Olympic or professional athlete or team has used cheating methods to win a game, what do we do? We strip them of their titles and fine them.

What should we do when we find that a paintball team is using cheating methos? Disqualify the entire team from the event. Slapping their wrists isn't going to fix the problem. We have to hold ourselves to the highest standards, or others (i.e. the public) have no reason to respect us. Today's paintball culture has adopted cheating not only as an acceptable technique, but lauds players who use it. Fans adore blatantly cheating players, and don't speak out against the mob-mentality of pro paintball.

I love Paintball with a passion. I play it twice per week, and I practice with many teams. I will continue to play paintball and love it. That being said...

The entire game of paintball is corrupt with cheating.

Players practice it and condone it.
Videos blatantly show it happening without denouncing it.
Manufacturers cater to it.
Pro teams exemplify it for their throngs of fans.
Leagues are afraid to truly crack down on it.
Leagues adopt it into their game; allowing ramping (once a cheat) and using penalty boxes (instead of ousting the player and/or team).

Disagree with me? Disprove me. If only it were so.

[Crazy]

The point i was making is that the rules are enforced on Dynasty, just as it was on anyone else. Chuck explained the new rules during the captains meeting and that is to penalize the player more than the entire team. This event, instead of Disqualifing the entire team, the team is penalized 100 points(which pretty much puts you out of the event right there) and then the player is suspended for 2 full events. What do you want next? Charging these people tens of thousands of dollars? Oh wait, no one gets paid anywhere near that to play paintball unlike the millions of dollars thrown around in baseball. You think any of those players actually care when they have to pay 10, 50, or even 100 thousand dollar fine?

[hitech]

In other sports, equipment is fashioned in accordance to rules. In paintball rules are fashioned weekly in accordance to equipment, this is a problem

A line worthy of a sig quote. :hail:

[Target Practice]

A line worthy of a sig quote. :hail:

*sigh*, I remember those.

I wanted to say that there is quite a lot of bold in this thread.

I just don't see the point. Why ask questions? Why debate? Neither you nor anyone else on this board is going to change a damn thing. Nobody important cares about what any of us have to say. Do I wish it was different? Yes. Do I wish we didn't have to put up with all the crap? Yes. Do I, deep down, still love the sport? I would say so, yes.

Get used to it, guys. As long as it's about the money and the attention, nothing is going to change.

[Jotsy]

now i don't know much abt politics, but i think the main reason why so many ppl are upset is because everybody has their own opinion of what the rules should be and nobody wants to work together an make a set of rules that everybody can agree to. Sure, we may not have the power to change anything, but the ones who do have the power have a hard time changing em because they don't know who to listen to.

[shartley]

now i don't know much abt politics, but i think the main reason why so many ppl are upset is because everybody has their own opinion of what the rules should be and nobody wants to work together an make a set of rules that everybody can agree to. Sure, we may not have the power to change anything, but the ones who do have the power have a hard time changing em because they don't know who to listen to.
I don’t buy that. And rules should not depend on what everyone can “agree” to. Can you imagine the NFL rules if that was the case? How about NASCAR? How about boxing?

[PBX Ronin 23]

There's a reason other sports get big and have hundreds of millions (maybe a billion or 2 for some) of fans and followers. TRADITION. Tradition in paintball is something mostly remembered and not practiced. In other sports, equipment is fashioned in accordance to rules. In paintball rules are fashioned weekly in accordance to equipment, this is a problem

Most of the sports that you have mentioned are deeply rooted in tradition. Tradition, at least in their early years, took precedence over financial matters. After all, these sports were originally intended to be a form of recreation for the participants rather than a source of revenue. That's the way they've started. But then they evolved to be multi-billion dollar industries.

Regretfully, tradition isn't as well rooted in paintball in a way that we would have liked it to be.

Trends in the sport and the industry in general have been governed by business interests more so than anything else. Winning at all cost, whether it requires the cheating or unsafe rates of fire, is the paramount goal.

[Jotsy]

well, being in the UK, i don't really follow those sports, so i don't know what the situation is like over there... but do ppl actively complain abt the way those sports are played?

i'm not gonna presume to know abt the history of football, but i'm sure at some point in history some ppl sat down and set out some iron clad rules that everybody were willing to follow. Paintball being relatively new, i'm gonna say that we just haven't reached that point yet.

now imagine if we all (by we i mean us players/forumers... an not just AO, mebe all PB forums) actually came together and decided for ourselves how we want to play the game (and we did it sensibly), would we all still be bickering here abt rules an such?

on a different note, imagine if illegal markers were treated more seriously... like say with an instant banning from the site or mebe even a prison sentence (this would require having certain modes officially considered illegal according to the law that is), i'd be willing to bet there'd be less of those appearing at games...

[MadPSIence]

I am appaulled by how accepted cheating is in paintball really. What really gets me is when people go on about how ramping isn't cheating, and how it's allowed now. You know what, it WAS cheating, and for a good reason. But for some reason as soon as it's declared not cheating by leagues that make rules for marketing.. people support it?

The only people supporting ramping are those too apathetic so say nay against it.. and those who just fold under the pressure to fit in and start using it. Then of course there's the kids and the diva pros who don't care about the sport, fairplay or any of that.

Did anyone see the NYX Matrix commerical with that wigger fool from NYX? That was the most sickening display of paintball marketing ever.. it makes the sport look retarded.

[Lohman446]

I agree with you and would like to also add I wish paintball would follow the example of other sports. Like.. take Formula 2 or GT350 for example. Cars are limited to certain specs.. so that driving skill does become the winning factor. Allowing ramping in paintball is like putting an (hypothetical) autopilot in a racecar. It takes the load off of you.. and when EVERYONE has ramping - you basically have a racetrack with everycar on auto pilot pile every driver sits back and taps buttons. Perhaps not to that extreme but the more you move down the ladder from pro to novice the more evident the lack of skill used is seen,


This would be true if BPS were the only skill in paintball. I look at it more like the limits of racing. They don't want races won in the garage, so they limit and driver skill becomes more of a factor. I don't want to see paintball won based on BPS (though I question at which point higher BPS doesn't matter) so capping it is a step in the right direction to me.

[tyrion2323]

The point i was making is that the rules are enforced on Dynasty, just as it was on anyone else. Chuck explained the new rules during the captains meeting and that is to penalize the player more than the entire team. This event, instead of Disqualifing the entire team, the team is penalized 100 points(which pretty much puts you out of the event right there) and then the player is suspended for 2 full events. What do you want next? Charging these people tens of thousands of dollars? Oh wait, no one gets paid anywhere near that to play paintball unlike the millions of dollars thrown around in baseball. You think any of those players actually care when they have to pay 10, 50, or even 100 thousand dollar fine?

I guess that's a fine punishment, if it works. I just don't think that Dynasty or any other pro team is going to stop trying to cheat because of it. Where did I suggest fining paintball teams? Can you find that for me, please?

A team needs to truly be a team. None of this WDP Amalgam Arsenal crap...and teams need to know about their teammates.

What do I think the best solution is? Have Dynasty, XSV, Strange, etc. all stand up and denounce cheating, and then make a pact not to cheat again.

What do I think the realistic situation will be? Nothing will happen because these guys want to win at all costs. Chuck Hendsh's rule sounds good, but it's not going to do anything to stop the appeal or glamour of cheating that has been cultivated by today's pro teams.

[barrel break]

[QUOTE=teufelhunden] - content - [QUOTE]

in reguards to your reply about rules and cheating in other sports.. you're right not many corked bats or illegal things pop up. It's because in those sports there is an actual sense of tradition and an honor system. (not to mention greater consequences for cheating). Frankly, and quote me for this, tourney ballers are some of the most careless sportsman when it's come to any sort of traditionalism or honor in the game. don't get me wrong most pro-ballers are respectable and well mannered athletes (albeit spoiled celebrities) but when youngsters are just as capable of using this equipment.. seriously. 15 year olds (and younger & older) don't give (or know) 2 craps about an honor system or anything.
^^
(My age, 15)
Ya know, this is where starting to play with friends in woodsball really helps everybody. :D
Personally, I have wiped maybe 3 times in the ~4 years I have been playing, once at Ronn sternn camp, and twice in the woods, fooling around games. Generally, we were pretty honest. The new players are somewhat indoctrinated in wiping at feilds. ooops, ot, back to topic.

Reaction time to ramping- Last week, there were quite a few "agg kids" playing, one had his DM4 ramping something quite a bit past 15 (maybe 20?). When he shot people, they averaged three hits, people will jerk outta the way.

BPS limits- 15 is just fine with me, thank you.

Ramping in general- I somewhat ashamadely, will say I played all of last friday without realizing I was ramping. I got home, next day fooled around in modes, and found myself to have been ramping. Did I overshoot people? No, the person whom I hit the most walked off the feild with 4 balls on him because he didnt go out.
Turning into a sitting game? Hell, don't just blame ramping, even without it, shooting 10BPS, back guys still sit there shooting, and people find their favorite bunkers. I prefer a fast game, but it rests in the type of people you play with.

[PsychoBaller]

Simply Stated - I feel to much emphasis these days is on how fast someone can shoot, and not on actually playing and ENJOYING the game, regardless of who wins.

Thas why i gave up on tourny play. Its just not fun anymore. Politics... bah.

Players that enter into paintball these days are not worried as much anymore about how to play the game, but rather how fast they can get their gun to go. I remember when i first started, i wanted to learn tactics, and just work on my gun for the fun of it, and upgrade the crap outta it with knowingly useless fashion sense upgrades.

nobody cares anymore about tactics, every other thread is about "my gun shoots faster than yours" yada yada.... sad times.

-baller

ya gots to get back into PB where it started, IN THE WOOODS... scenario stuff is where its at.

[shartley]

Simply Stated - I feel to much emphasis these days is on how fast someone can shoot, and not on actually playing and ENJOYING the game, regardless of who wins.

Thas why i gave up on tourny play. Its just not fun anymore. Politics... bah.

Players that enter into paintball these days are not worried as much anymore about how to play the game, but rather how fast they can get their gun to go. I remember when i first started, i wanted to learn tactics, and just work on my gun for the fun of it, and upgrade the crap outta it with knowingly useless fashion sense upgrades.

nobody cares anymore about tactics, every other thread is about "my gun shoots faster than yours" yada yada.... sad times.

-baller

ya gots to get back into PB where it started, IN THE WOOODS... scenario stuff is where its at.
Do not confuse what you see here on AO or similar forums with how everyone thinks. There are plenty of folks who feel like you do, and they have forums they go to to chat. Shoot me off a PM and I will let you know where….

[alooney11]

It only seems bad becuase the people that post on forums all know/have the latest and greatst stuff. But when you go to a big game its still pretty cool. I have more fun now due to the new technology (eyes/level 10) than when chopping was common place.

[shartley]

It only seems bad becuase the people that post on forums all know/have the latest and greatst stuff. But when you go to a big game its still pretty cool. I have more fun now due to the new technology (eyes/level 10) than when chopping was common place.
This is not quite accurate. That does not even apply to everyone who posts on THIS forum. ;)

I have to remind folks often that AO and PBN are far from being the only paintball forums online, nor are they the best and worst forums either. There are actually worse forums than PBN and MUCH better forums than AO. And there are forums dedicated to every style of play and niche in paintball.

[hobbesTZ]

Lets all forget about all the hypothetically theoretical topics and love paintball for what it is, whatever we make it :clap:

[ApexAZ]

I think they need to stop bending/reforming the rules so much.

If PSP or whatever keeps allowing things to change then why would the marker manufacturers have any reason not to continue adding more and more cheating features?

Someone above had it right, the leagues don't dictate the rules, the gun makers do. It's backwards.

As far as punishment goes. Make it strict. Very strict. If someone gets caught cheating, the whole team needs to pay a huge penalty for it imo. This would encourage teams to prevent cheating from their members. It gets a little more complicated though. What cheats deserve which penalty? A semi-innocent cheat like playing on after being hit... But how can you really determine if the player really knew if he was hit or not? Bleh. Just figure the rules out and stick to them.

[Crazy]

I guess that's a fine punishment, if it works. I just don't think that Dynasty or any other pro team is going to stop trying to cheat because of it. Where did I suggest fining paintball teams? Can you find that for me, please?

A team needs to truly be a team. None of this WDP Amalgam Arsenal crap...and teams need to know about their teammates.

What do I think the best solution is? Have Dynasty, XSV, Strange, etc. all stand up and denounce cheating, and then make a pact not to cheat again.

What do I think the realistic situation will be? Nothing will happen because these guys want to win at all costs. Chuck Hendsh's rule sounds good, but it's not going to do anything to stop the appeal or glamour of cheating that has been cultivated by today's pro teams.

Fining is a large part of other sports, and when you start talking about other sports it brings fining into the picture. Sorry to burst your bubble, but cheating is nothing new. And it does not just happen at the pro level. D3-Pro, players will do what they can at all costs to win, if it takes sliding off a knee hit on the break, so be it. The fact is that cheating is part of paintball. Stopping it completely is a ridiculous idea as it will never happen. It's just like the idea of communism, it looks good on paper but will never work. The best way to stop cheating is to create better ways of catching it. The NPPL and PSP are on their way with the NPPL's robot and the PACT timers that the PSP is using.

[Jotsy]

with regards to wiping, i think it'd be a good idea to award ppl for not cheating, and penalize them (by points) if they do (this would only work for actually tournaments where ppl actually care abt points though)

for example, lets say a game is won on points. calling yourself out (ie walking off without waiting for a marshall to pull you off) should earn the team 5 points. Now i haven't really thought this through thoroughly, and theres prob some angle or scenario where this causes a problem, but basically, the idea is that honorable play should be awarded...

[Lohman446]

with regards to wiping, i think it'd be a good idea to award ppl for not cheating, and penalize them (by points) if they do (this would only work for actually tournaments where ppl actually care abt points though)

for example, lets say a game is won on points. calling yourself out (ie walking off without waiting for a marshall to pull you off) should earn the team 5 points. Now i haven't really thought this through thoroughly, and theres prob some angle or scenario where this causes a problem, but basically, the idea is that honorable play should be awarded...

If you are going to give me five points for calling myself out, and my team needs 25 points near the end to mathematically eliminate another you are going to hear "GO" "Out" "out" "out" "out "out"... we'll take our 25 points and not worry about teh game.

[Jotsy]

heh, well i did say i haven't really thought it through.... mebe a win can be woprth 30 points... so if the whole team calls themselves out, then they still lose overall... but the points can be put used for league standings an stuff.....

from this point on, i go into my own little world and start coming up with my own rules... if you thinks this is childish, feel free to just ignore me

ooor the game could be decided by the differences in points...

say for example, a game ends with the scores 50-25... so there's a 25 pt difference. So in terms of league points, the winning team goes up by 25 and the losing team goes down by 25....

we could also make it that the total score of the winning team = 20 + (10x no. of players left)

so if a team just calls themselves out, the scores would be (for a 5 man team) 70-25 (45pt difference).

the closest game would be if a team of wipers won over a team of honest players and the game went all the way to a 1 on 1 standoff... the score would be 30-25 (5 pt difference)

[Lohman446]

Don't let issues get you down with one idea, the purpose of floating ideas is to get the strongest parts of your ideas, along with the strongest parts of other ideas, and come up with a great idea.