So, you can buy a NEW Mini Now?

[Teamslayer76]

:shooting:
http://store.airgun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.catalog&categoryID=33

I was looking on AGD's site and Minimags are for sale now. Hopefully never used ones. But look at the price.. Its a bit pricey. Post what you think?

[Maggot6]

yeah, I saw that the other day. I think it is fair enough, considering the pro classic is about $65 less. But I think that it Should have been priced at $245+ shipping etc. And then the pro classic at $210 or so. But it's not my company; and I don't know production costs or anything that is involved.

[shartley]

Folks need to keep in mind that AGD has always overpriced their stuff on their own site. That is so you go to their Dealers first. You can get better deals going to their Dealers than you will going directly to AGD, so feel free to “window shop” on the AGD site, but then run to an AGD Dealer to actually buy the product.

[minimag03]

They'll never sell at that price to anyone outside of AO who really loves mags. Why? Because theres better, less expensive markers out there for under $295!

Hmm, I wonder which marker you are talking about :rolleyes: .

[Teamslayer76]

I could say a marker that is better for less price...the pro classic. Its completly set up for cheapre, add a minimag bodie for 10 bucks there you go... A minimag.

[JimmyBeam]

hmm...295? maybe 125 and I would consider it.

[teufelhunden]

hmm...295? maybe 125 and I would consider it.

Neg. Less.

[Pullman]

Let's face it guys,

We won't pay $295 for a new Minimag cause you can get a used one for $100 or less that will work just as well. Be real though, let's say $250 for a brand new minimag is pretty swell. It's cheaper than an A-5, and that is more the market they are aimed at anyhow. :D

[hAppy]

Easy for you to say, when the time comes you wouldn't buy it. In fact, you'd probably pick up a Ion instead.

[Wheelman]

I would, just because.

besides you can get a pf/hl with a reverse valve, and how many of those do you see nowadays? look at it this way, you can spend 300 buck on a gun that may out perfom it, but you're payng for a name. Id rather pay for quality myself, and that 295 bucks will still be working 10 years from now just like new.

[shartley]

Let's face it guys,

We won't pay $295 for a new Minimag cause you can get a used one for $100 or less that will work just as well. Be real though, let's say $250 for a brand new minimag is pretty swell. It's cheaper than an A-5, and that is more the market they are aimed at anyhow. :D
But let’s be honest with something else as well… it can’t compete with A-5s no matter if it is less expensive or not. Those who are interested in an A-5 would not look twice at the MiniMag, and rightly so. The MiniMag is a nice marker and very reliable, but it isn’t a scenario marker and lacks all the potential “goodies” that A-5 owners like.

People buy markers for more reasons than what they cost. And the Mini is no match for an A-5, heck I would doubt it even phases 98c’s either.

[shartley]

I would, just because.

besides you can get a pf/hl with a reverse valve, and how many of those do you see nowadays? look at it this way, you can spend 300 buck on a gun that may out perfom it, but you're payng for a name. Id rather pay for quality myself, and that 295 bucks will still be working 10 years from now just like new.
If you are buying a marker that can out perform another, you are not just paying for the name… you are paying for a marker that outperforms another. The fact that AGD markers are quality does not mean all others are NOT. And most markers that are taken care of will last quite a long time.

The simple truth to the matter is that Minis are good markers but they lack the features the market they are now being aimed at want. AGD and Mag owners tried the “quality” line when they went after the tournament market as well…. and it didn’t work there either. You need more than simple quality to compete in the marker arena, you need a lot more. And if you can offer the customers all the other things they want, you can actually sell MORE markers with LESS quality, but that shoot just as well and last just as long.

Paintball markers require a certain level of quality, and after that it is only a selling point IMHO, not a requirement. The average customer wants a balance between expectable quality, features, upgradeability, customization, styling, capabilities, and price. And you will find it hard to sell the idea that quality alone without all the other factors is worth high prices. This is part of what bit AGD in the past, and don’t think woodball/rec/sceanario players are any more blind than speedball players were.

And this doesn’t even take into consideration that how the marker will shoot 10 years from now doesn’t matter as much to the average player as how the marker will shoot NOW. They are making an investment in their game at this point, not 10 years from now. And what marker offers them the best bang for their buck now is usually the one they will buy.

So sorry, the Mini still comes up short on many aspects…. UNLESS it is really what you want. And you are buying it because it is a MiniMag and you love AGD.

Again, please don’t think I am slamming the Mini, because I am not. I am just pointing out that it is not the wonder child some would like to make it out to be. It has also been available for sale all this time, but how many do you see on the fields? I know of one shop that had over 20 of them for YEARS and they could not give them away. And I even offered them for sale and only had ONE inquiry in over 6 months, but no purchases.

[soccer4minimags]

that price isn't too outrageous. Yes you can get used ones super cheap now, that work just as well, but thats the beauty of mags.

I remember a few years back, when I bought my first brand new mag (my very first one was used), I paid $285 for a basic mini mag just like that. At least that price is more reasonable, there was a time when the price of minimags was close to $400, on certain bodies on agd's own online store.

[mag88888]

my basic opinion on this is...they won't sell unless the buyer is experienced with mags and actually knows about them. if some random kid surfing the net for guns sees a mini for 295 or or whatever hes no gonna even think about buying them. they look like crap. all basic mags with stock bodies (other than the ULE bodies) look like they suck. they arent attractive at all. they look lame. AGD should spice it up with other colors instead of that droopy gray that comes stock on most the 68's and minis you see.

[Wheelman]

The average customer wants a balance between expectable quality, features, upgradeability, customization, styling, capabilities, and price.


They want the newest, fastest and shiniest out there. Your right the minimag is none of these, but please don't tell me it can't compete with a tippmann, because your not even in the same price range when it comes to out of the box. Yes they may be better, but thats after several hundred in upgrades. I've owned the low end stuff and wasn't really happy with it as well as the high end and they all just let me down and cost an arm and a leg to fix. Nobody gives a damn about real quality anymore. It's all about tolerances and cycle rates not overall design.

Yes I am an AGD Fanboy, because Tom Knew what he was doing when he built the damn thing. I will swear by my automag when the newest, fastest and shiniest is crapping out on the field. Maybe if you show up to an AO day sometime you'll see why we defend our mags the way we do, it's pretty overwhelming. People say Toms design is dated, I think it was ahead of it's time.

On another note, I am the first in line to see the ION fall to hell due to poor quality, in a $295 package that "outperforms"

[buzzboy]

Yeah the price does seem a little high. Though I think that it is fair enough because it has AUTOMAG stamped on the side of it.

Also I was thinking that they should offer more upgrades such as y/intel grip, x valve and possibly foregrip/bottomline.

[WARPED1]

hmm...295? maybe 125 and I would consider it.
I agree wholeheartedly. The $300 electro market(Diablo Wrath) has lowered the market on all mech guns. I'd pay no more than $125, especially since it still has a Classic Valve.

Hmm, I wonder which marker you are talking about :rolleyes: .

The Diablo Wrath you butt nugget! :rolleyes:

[hobbesTZ]

There's practically an endless supply of $100 Minimags around here. The only people that are going to buy this are those who want the nastalgia factor or they haven't come across many paintball forums.

[shartley]

They want the newest, fastest and shiniest out there. Your right the minimag is none of these, but please don't tell me it can't compete with a tippmann, because your not even in the same price range when it comes to out of the box. Yes they may be better, but thats after several hundred in upgrades. I've owned the low end stuff and wasn't really happy with it as well as the high end and they all just let me down and cost an arm and a leg to fix. Nobody gives a damn about real quality anymore. It's all about tolerances and cycle rates not overall design.
And much of that is opinion. To think that out of the box, a MiniMag is “better” than an A-5 that all you need to do is put on an air source and go play is silly. Is the average player going to want to run their bottle vertical? And how about their choice of hopper? And then will they even be able to pull the trigger fast enough to keep up with a motorized hopper’s capable speed?

Sorry, I still don’t see it competing with the A-5 or even 98c. But that is MY opinion. And that opinion is backed up with the number you see of each type on the field and the fact that I have seen more than a few Mags (of all types) simply collect dust on store shelves and walls.

You see, when it is all said and done, your opinion of the marker and its actual quality don’t sell the marker…. And never have in any real numbers.


Yes I am an AGD Fanboy, because Tom Knew what he was doing when he built the damn thing. I will swear by my automag when the newest, fastest and shiniest is crapping out on the field. Maybe if you show up to an AO day sometime you'll see why we defend our mags the way we do, it's pretty overwhelming. People say Toms design is dated, I think it was ahead of it's time.
LOL Now that is funny. I have to make it to an AO day to see why people defend Mags? Like the fact that I OWN one and have done nothing but tout how great a marker it is is not good enough? LOL But with that said, Mags still didn’t become a force in the market…. for many reasons. And no amount of zealotism changed that.

What is overwhelming at AO days is your love for the marker and a group mentality… but that could be shown at ANY owners’ group day.

Sorry you don’t have to attend an AO Day to know how good AGD markers are. But that doesn’t change a single thing I posted, nor has changed their position in the market. And I will also point out that I have seen my share of Mags “crap out” on the field as well, or sit on a table while another marker is being used. Most of the time a marker craps out it is because of improper maintenance or total lack of preventive maintenance… and that can affect any marker made.

And I will also point out that I have read here on AO where folks have had AGD Techs work on their markers at event because they were not working right (and those techs not play because they spent their time fixing Mags). But Mags are perfect markers, right? It is only OTHER markers that crap out on the field, right? Wrong.

But Wheelman, don’t misunderstand me. I am not arguing quality. I am not arguing durability. I am not arguing anything but the fact that NONE of those things has helped AGD become a force in the market. And none of those things by themselves help the Minimag compete with Tippmann markers with the average customer. And neither does zealotism… never has, never will. You need something more. And looking down your nose at less expensive markers that are the “newest, fastest, and shiniest” does not change the fact that those markers outsell and outshoot Mags each and every day.


There's practically an endless supply of $100 Minimags around here. The only people that are going to buy this are those who want the nastalgia factor or they haven't come across many paintball forums.
I agree. And if the argument about the marker being as good 10 years after it is purchased as the day it was, why would anyone pay for a new one at 3 times the price of a used one that is just as good? ;)

[Pyroboy597]

i dono why anyone would buy a minimag anyway. And i can say this because ive owned one for over a year and a half now. They are not good. Its that simple. They are heavy, slow, and just expensive. A spyder can outshoot a minimag out of its box, and just to get your mag to shoot with a still heavy but lighter trigger pull, you have to either upgrade to a new 250$ valve, buy a 140$ trigger frame, or spend 40$ on a ULT. Also, you have to pay for your gun not to chop. Once youve got your gun "up to par" you could have bought almost any gun (some would have to be used) out there. I realized that about half way through and gave up. My mag would never shoot the way that a 700$ gun should.

[Pyroboy597]

i know i did :P i dont have anything against AGD or AO, but i really dono how they get people to buy their guns... and its not even like a small number of people.. there are thousands of members here who are STILL buying mag stuff.

[mag88888]

that is true. i realized that with my old spyder and bought mag. now im being told that my mag isnt good enough and i should just buy a whole new gun. my mag didnt chop once in maybe 700 balls yesterday. if i put a pneu frame or a justa double trigger on there i think itd be good enough to play most any gun. i was playing shockers, angels, cockers, i did fine. but then again for a cheaper price than upgradiing i could get something that shoots just as fast for cheaper. but then again i love my mag. i like being unique. i like talking with other hidden mag guys that i didnt know about. i woulkd rather pay 500 in all for a pneu mag then pay 300 for a ION and stuff. i dont know about you but thats how i feel. how do you guys feel about that?

[magmonkey]

here is the problem, I would be willing to bet AGD can't come close to making a mini for 125.00
there is a HUGE difference between say a 98c and a mini in manufacturing.

I would be willing to bet that tippmann pays no more then $8.00 per cast body (now that the molds are paid for)
I am not nocking tippmanns at all here I am just saying that the way a MAG is built is not a cheap venture.

[Pullman]

Easy for you to say, when the time comes you wouldn't buy it. In fact, you'd probably pick up a Ion instead.

Or not. I already own a mini, and I recently bought a bunch of parts (prolly $300 bucks worth) to put together a warped ULE mag cause I like them, and I know how they work. IONs are swell I guess (never owned one) and I know A-5's are fine (best CO2 powered marker I have ever owned) I just like mags better. I guess that makes me dumb ;)

[shartley]

i know i did :P i dont have anything against AGD or AO, but i really dono how they get people to buy their guns... and its not even like a small number of people.. there are thousands of members here who are STILL buying mag stuff.
But buying NEW mags? AGD will not stay in business unless they can sell inventory… which is why they are selling the “new” Classic, and the MiniMag again. They need to sell what was left on the shelves. But they (as well as others) forget that the stuff didn’t really sell well BEFORE, if it did, they would not still have it in inventory after all these years.

So don’t confuse the number of members here, or how many after market parts made by other people we see here on AO, with how many mags leave store shelves. I think that was part of the mistake AGD made, they tried to equate online zealotizm with actual sales. They hoped the hype and buzz created on AO would lead to the marketplace actually buying into what folks were typing on the forum. But most other manufacturers simply laughed, and the average customer didn’t swallow it.... whether it was true or not.

here is the problem, I would be willing to bet AGD can't come close to making a mini for 125.00
there is a HUGE difference between say a 98c and a mini in manufacturing.

I would be willing to bet that tippmann pays no more then $8.00 per cast body (now that the molds are paid for)
I am not nocking tippmanns at all here I am just saying that the way a MAG is built is not a cheap venture.
I agree. But that is not something that will help “sell” the Mini. Customers don’t care about how much it cost the manufacturer to make an item, they care about how much they pay for it. I am sure you know that.

However, I don’t think they are “making” them any more anyways. I bet they are selling inventory. There is a difference. And at some point when products don’t move, you have to bite the bullet and sell it for SOMETHING (even if at a loss) VS not selling it at all. And I can tell you that the shop owners I know have had to do just that with AGD products. They don’t want to carry them in inventory any longer since they only take up space… so they give them away as prizes at events of sell them at a loss just to get something from their investment.

I think it is time some folks (not saying YOU) need to be honest and admit that AGD is selling these to get rid of inventory, not because they honestly think they can compete on the market with them. If they couldn’t a few years ago, what makes anyone think they can now? And what makes folks think using the same “sale points” that failed for the most part over the years will work now either?

Or not. I already own a mini, and I recently bought a bunch of parts (prolly $300 bucks worth) to put together a warped ULE mag cause I like them, and I know how they work. IONs are swell I guess (never owned one) and I know A-5's are fine (best CO2 powered marker I have ever owned) I just like mags better. I guess that makes me dumb ;)
I don’t think it makes you dumb. I prefer my Stroker over some of the other markers I have used, but it shoots WAY slower. Personal preference is a great thing and helps sell many markers. But you will never see Strokers outsell Spyders, Tippmanns, or probably even Mags. LOL

I think it is GREAT that markers are available for sale. I think it is GREAT that folks like different things. But unfortunately sometimes niche markets simply stay that way. And I think AGD is a niche market, no matter how hard they try to go head to head with other companies out there.

[Tunaman]

Dont tell us...tell it to all the whiners at the field yesterday that got their butts LIT UP BAD by automags. It is a real shame that people open there mouths and know nothing of what they speak. Give me your best A5...or 98...and I will personally make any Minimag, Classic, or RT Pro pee all over it. Put your money where your mouth is. Talk is cheap. We talk with our Mags and they didn't want to believe that these were MECHANICAL MAGS that were doing all the hurting yesterday. Sales will increase AGAIN from all the non-believers that were inquiring about Mags yesterday. Stainless steel and 6262 series aluminum are high quaility alloys that dont come cheap and never will. And having a vertical adapter on a minimag does not constitute having to run a vertical bottle either. Ever hear of a foregrip? Dont believe the hype. The Mag will ALWAYS be a better marker due to the inherent design and quality.
And another little thing that is starting to piss me off. If you decide that you want to come here and bash Mags, your post will be deleted. I will do it personally. This is a mag forum for mag owners and other gun owners alike. We dont bash other guns around here so neither will any of you bash mags. Take it to your "other " forums and do it there. If you haven't already realized what is going on, there are new owners at AGD and they deserve the same help from all of us to keep them rolling along. Its a tough enough market out there without having retards bashing your products on you own damn forum.

[JKR]

my basic opinion on this is...they won't sell unless the buyer is experienced with mags and actually knows about them. if some random kid surfing the net for guns sees a mini for 295 or or whatever hes no gonna even think about buying them. they look like crap. all basic mags with stock bodies (other than the ULE bodies) look like they suck. they arent attractive at all. they look lame. AGD should spice it up with other colors instead of that droopy gray that comes stock on most the 68's and minis you see.

That is your opinion. I am one of many who actually likes the lines of the stainless bodies. Just wish Tom would have designed an integrated sight rail on it.

Pyroboy597... for someone who has nothing but negative things to say about AGD products, you sure do hang out in a strange place. I am sure there is a SP forum somewhere that would appreciate your input.

I will agree that the Classic 'Mag will never thrive in the "Land of the BPS Monkeys" but that isn't why I bought one. My reasons for recently getting on the AGD bandwagon: liked the look of the Classic 'Mag, love the stock Classic grip frame, very much a fan of the quality, and prefer long-term reliability over ROF.

[mag88888]

when everyone says mags are slow i just dont know what theyre talking about. i was on par with everyone else with their angels and shockers yesterday with my single trigger mag. and it wasnt bouncing, all semi. at what point can you tell the difference of 10 or 20 balls coming at you? at what point does bps not help? i thought i would be outgunned yesterday but i held my own.

[shartley]

Dont tell us...tell it to all the whiners at the field yesterday that got their butts LIT UP BAD by automags. It is a real shame that people open there mouths and know nothing of what they speak. Give me your best A5...or 98...and I will personally make any Minimag, Classic, or RT Pro pee all over it. Put your money where your mouth is. Talk is cheap. We talk with our Mags and they didn't want to believe that these were MECHANICAL MAGS that were doing all the hurting yesterday. Sales will increase AGAIN from all the non-believers that were inquiring about Mags yesterday. Stainless steel and 6262 series aluminum are high quaility alloys that dont come cheap and never will. And having a vertical adapter on a minimag does not constitute having to run a vertical bottle either. Ever hear of a foregrip? Dont believe the hype. The Mag will ALWAYS be a better marker due to the inherent design and quality.
And another little thing that is starting to piss me off. If you decide that you want to come here and bash Mags, your post will be deleted. I will do it personally. This is a mag forum for mag owners and other gun owners alike. We dont bash other guns around here so neither will any of you bash mags. Take it to your "other " forums and do it there. If you haven't already realized what is going on, there are new owners at AGD and they deserve the same help from all of us to keep them rolling along. Its a tough enough market out there without having retards bashing your products on you own damn forum.
I hope none of that was aimed at my posts, because I actually do know what I am talking about and didn’t “bash” mags. And if you buy a foregrip for your Mag you are not using it as it was “out of the box”, as was being discussed. What was being discussed was the Minimag as shown on the AGD Shop.

I will also point out that I have ALWAYS stated here on AO, as well as any place else, that my RTPro was an “electro killer” because it is super fast. I too have had folks not believe that I was shooting a manual marker. But that didn’t increase sales. Folks didn’t run out and buy RTRPros. I wish they HAD. And if you remember correctly, I have been telling Tom here on AO that I thought it was a mistake to virtually ignore his RTPro and focus only on the E-Series for YEARS.

And calling anyone who does not like Mags, or brings up points that may not put mags in the most favorable light (true or not), retards is not the way to prove Mags are indeed better markers. Attacking the people and not simply addressing issues is the first sign of losing an argument. And it harkens to PBN style behavior of which AO seems to claim they are above.

Mags are GREAT markers. I personally have never said anything other than that. I however will still maintain that they can’t compete with Tippmans and many other markers out there… and I am not talking about their “capabilities” but their SALES. And after all, it is their sales that will help keep AGD alive, not whether their markers are better or worse than other markers. Folks can scream all day how great Mags are and how retarded anyone who thinks otherwise is, but if the markers don’t SELL, how long will they be on the fields? And how long will AGD be in business?

Tunaman, you and I have a love/hate relationship. LOL I respect you a great deal, but it is posts like you just made that actually hurt AGD IMHO more than any nay sayers posting on AO. And as for lighting up folks on the field, I bet any owner’s group would say the same thing if they got together and went up against walk on players. LOL Calm down.

[Pyroboy597]

dude... whoever that was that said there was a SP forum that wanted my input.. your right... there probably is.. but im registered on this one.. and if u read the first post, the guy asked "what do you guys think?" so i can say whatever i want since he asked for my opinion. Read the first post nextime before you come after me. :tard:

[Tunaman]

Sam. I was fine with your post until you start stating WHY AGD is doing anything right now. You actually dont know jack about sales at AGD right now and have proved it by stating what you did. Sales are UP...by alot. Here, there, and everywhere. And posts like yours stating why they are doing what they are doing right now just have no merit whatsoever. It is no time to speculate on things you dont know when the new owner is looking for a little help. Please be more considerate as to AGD USA's reasons for doing anything. If you really want to know (seems you already know everything) why AGD USA is doing anything, then please call Dave and ask him.

[Tunaman]

[QUOTE=shartley]But buying NEW mags? AGD will not stay in business unless they can sell inventory… which is why they are selling the “new” Classic, and the MiniMag again. They need to sell what was left on the shelves. But they (as well as others) forget that the stuff didn’t really sell well BEFORE, if it did, they would not still have it in inventory after all these years.[QUOTE/]

Sorry Sam. You are wrong again. Classic Mags , Minimags, and most of the parts for them ARE being MANUFACTURED right now. These ARE NEW guns not old inventory. Get your facts straight before posting stuff of which you do know nothing about.

[Tunaman]

I hope none of that was aimed at my posts, because I actually do know what I am talking about and didn’t “bash” mags. And if you buy a foregrip for your Mag you are not using it as it was “out of the box”, as was being discussed. What was being discussed was the Minimag as shown on the AGD Shop.

I will also point out that I have ALWAYS stated here on AO, as well as any place else, that my RTPro was an “electro killer” because it is super fast. I too have had folks not believe that I was shooting a manual marker. But that didn’t increase sales. Folks didn’t run out and buy RTRPros. I wish they HAD. And if you remember correctly, I have been telling Tom here on AO that I thought it was a mistake to virtually ignore his RTPro and focus only on the E-Series for YEARS.

And calling anyone who does not like Mags, or brings up points that may not put mags in the most favorable light (true or not), retards is not the way to prove Mags are indeed better markers. Attacking the people and not simply addressing issues is the first sign of losing an argument. And it harkens to PBN style behavior of which AO seems to claim they are above.

Mags are GREAT markers. I personally have never said anything other than that. I however will still maintain that they can’t compete with Tippmans and many other markers out there… and I am not talking about their “capabilities” but their SALES. And after all, it is their sales that will help keep AGD alive, not whether their markers are better or worse than other markers. Folks can scream all day how great Mags are and how retarded anyone who thinks otherwise is, but if the markers don’t SELL, how long will they be on the fields? And how long will AGD be in business?

Tunaman, you and I have a love/hate relationship. LOL I respect you a great deal, but it is posts like you just made that actually hurt AGD IMHO more than any nay sayers posting on AO. And as for lighting up folks on the field, I bet any owner’s group would say the same thing if they got together and went up against walk on players. LOL Calm down.
How long will they be on the fields? How long will they be in business? About 20+ years so far, and most likely another 20. Hard to find many other marker manufacturers that can say the same....

[Wheelman]

The Mag will ALWAYS be a better marker due to the inherent design and quality.



I know I'm still tired from the trip, so my words may be jumbled (I'll try again after a good night sleep) I attemped to say the very thing you did Tuna, you read what it got me :confused:

I admit that I too don't know jack about the numbers at AGD, but I can tell you I'm not blind. I just take a look around me when I go to the fields to play, even in the backwood redneck areas of Maine I am seeing mags again in a new force (you'd think it was the 90's again) and many of these mag owners had never heard of AO they chose an automag because of the quality and design of a reliable marker they saw. From what I have seen I can't belive that AGD will go out of buisness anytime soon as other seem to belive.


I've owned a few mags over the years and a slew of everything else, and in the end I come back to AGD, no hype. I just wanted something that if I ever needed to mess with it, it was because I want to not because I need to. I bought my first one new before I knew what AO was, I did it because for one I liked the looks of it (can you belive that, even though it's "ugly") but also I knew something well built when I saw it.

Yeah I know it's my opinion, but hey I'm young and free and damn well entitled to it.

[shartley]

Sam. I was fine with your post until you start stating WHY AGD is doing anything right now. You actually dont know jack about sales at AGD right now and have proved it by stating what you did. Sales are UP...by alot. Here, there, and everywhere. And posts like yours stating why they are doing what they are doing right now just have no merit whatsoever. It is no time to speculate on things you dont know when the new owner is looking for a little help. Please be more considerate as to AGD USA's reasons for doing anything. If you really want to know (seems you already know everything) why AGD USA is doing anything, then please call Dave and ask him.
And this post is much more in line of a reasonable post responding to things you don’t like. If I am off base, trust me, I am not the only one who sees it the way I do.

I am glad sales are up for AGD. But that does not change my opinion on whether they can go head to head with Tippmann. And it does not change the fact that the shop owners I know still have to give Mags away and in fact any AGD product, or sell them at a huge loss. That was not off the top of my head and if you think so it shows they you yourself don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to what I know.


[QUOTE=shartley]But buying NEW mags? AGD will not stay in business unless they can sell inventory… which is why they are selling the “new” Classic, and the MiniMag again. They need to sell what was left on the shelves. But they (as well as others) forget that the stuff didn’t really sell well BEFORE, if it did, they would not still have it in inventory after all these years.[QUOTE/]

Sorry Sam. You are wrong again. Classic Mags , Minimags, and most of the parts for them ARE being MANUFACTURED right now. These ARE NEW guns not old inventory. Get your facts straight before posting stuff of which you do know nothing about.
Thank you for clearing that up. But if you think I am the only one who thought that, you could not be more wrong. And being a jerk about it does not make you look any better, nor me worse. I am sorry I forgot to put “I believe” in what you quoted me posting. I think I made sure I prefaced all my other thoughts as being opinions and what I thought, if not, I apologize again.

I am sorry if I you think I am being inconsiderate of AGD when they need a little help, but your post here still does not show that anything I posted was false. I posted what I saw, and see. If other places are not like what I have seen, GREAT. I am happy for AGD. But it still does not change what I see here.

And if you notice, I started in this thread by openly stating that AGD’s posted prices are the HIGH prices. My points were also made on those prices, not lower ones. They were in response to posts referring to the AGD Store prices. The other issues about overall product price (AGD) and other markers on the market has always been a disagreement point with me, and I have always been open about it. That is nothing new. I have always felt that it would be a hard sell for the general public when they saw less expensive markers shooting as fast (or faster) than Mags prices twice as much if not more.

None of that however, is slamming mags, nor saying they are not top rate markers. I just believe they have been priced out of the market because the general public didn’t perceive them the way diehard AGD customers do. That may indeed change, but I have heard the “but sales are booming” comments before…. Then AGD cut their marker line, Tom retired, and we now see old markers being sold again.

If AGD and yourself want to get the word out to the public what is happening, it is best done by simply doing so, and not attacking people who are not making up things, nor being malicious, but simply posting what they SEE, and think.

How long will they be on the fields? How long will they be in business? About 20 years so far, and most likely another 20. Hard to find many other marker manufacturers that can say the same....
And that is fantastic! But do you honestly think they would have stayed in business without the other portions of Tom’s business? And be honest Scott, AGD has been through rough times, staff reductions, product reductions, etc. It is not all rosy for AGD and they are not flying high right now. I seriously doubt Tom would have left if AGD was raking in the money hand over fist. But I could be wrong.

Please stop trying to turn this into a Sam issue. We agree on a good many things, but we disagree on a few as well. But that is fine. However calling me names and claiming that I don’t know “anything” is neither called for, nor accurate. And I don’t think I saw anyone saying AGD was going out of business any time soon, I certainly didn’t.

[Wheelman]

Scott? Who is Scott? I thought Tuna's name was Robert. Is it that you dont know his first name, or are you just being disrespectful?

I did too, or are you on a last name only basis?


EDIT> Last part retracted because I don't want to overstep my bounds on lack of sleep.

[hobbesTZ]

Over the years it's become apparent to me that paintball is almost entirely based on opinion. As we've seen here any many of the other threads discussing differant paintball subjects there have been a million arguments. The trouble starts when we start taking opinions as facts. Personally, I don't like RT 'mags. I think you need an adjustable reg. to get it to work well. I think LVL 10 sucks, it's a touchy design, I don't want to drive my gun back into the gear bag over one microscopic fit issue (I hate on/off pins). AKA Sidewinders are hyped to hell and back, but mine has been just like anything else I've used. A lot of people say Intimidators are cheap POS, I disagree it's definately 90% user error (I've seen people that didn't know how to remove the detents). Tippmanns are a better value than the mags, especially at AGDs price. Once you start adding all the new stuff you run into reliablility issues that weren't there before, but all these are my opinions that I've concluded to through experiance, and I nobody can change my mind until I see whatever it is myself.

Enough rambling, I'm hungry and I'm going to make a sammich :dance:

[shartley]

Scott? Who is Scott? I thought Tuna's name was Robert. Is it that you dont know his first name, or are you just being disrespectful?
Sorry, long day. I know his first name, but mistakenly called him by another member’s name who I talk to from time to time. No disrespect was intended, unlike statements made toward me.

And…

Gotta agree with this one too. What you see, and what is actually happening are two completely different things.

Just because you dont see it at your local field, or read it in a book doesnt mean it isnt happening. Hasty generalization.

Yeah, what you see can never be trusted as an indicator of anything. So I guess what folks post here on AO can not be trusted either, since we can all see it. And I didn’t base my opinions and posts on just what I saw at a single local field, nor from what I read in a book. Hasty generalization.


I did too, or are you on a last name only basis?


EDIT> Last part retracted because I don't want to overstep my bounds on lack of sleep.
Answered above…

Thank you for retracting your last statement.

And Robert (Tunaman) please accept my apology for calling you Scott, it was unintentional.

[Tunaman]

no problem Sam. Its all good.

[bleachit]

i dono why anyone would buy a minimag anyway. And i can say this because ive owned one for over a year and a half now. They are not good. Its that simple. They are heavy, slow, and just expensive. A spyder can outshoot a minimag out of its box, and just to get your mag to shoot with a still heavy but lighter trigger pull, you have to either upgrade to a new 250$ valve, buy a 140$ trigger frame, or spend 40$ on a ULT. Also, you have to pay for your gun not to chop. Once youve got your gun "up to par" you could have bought almost any gun (some would have to be used) out there. I realized that about half way through and gave up. My mag would never shoot the way that a 700$ gun should.


ULT, Trigger frame, and $250 valve are all unneccesary, just like the endless supply of expensive spyder upgrades. and you dont have to pay to have your gun not chop.. although Kingman now has an anti chop bolt.. that you pay for, to have your spyder not chop.

am I the only one who thinks that if you have an electro hopper feeding faster than your max rof that you wont chop?

if you are going to say a spyder can outshoot a minimag, maybe you should specify which spyder.. as there are quite a few out there. only an electro spyder could outshoot a mag. a stock mech spyder trigger is long pre and post travel. The mag is harder but shorter, its a nice crisp trigger. which can actually result in a higher rof than a mech spyder.

If you were referring to an electro spyder, then sure, the spyder could outshoot a mag.. but then if you arent using full auto, trying to walk the trigger, or fan it or whatever will result in not the best accuracy.. where as the stock mag, at near its max rof out of box will put its paint on target due to less recoil and a more stable hold on the gun... well that will depend on how you fire your marker and how the tank is set up. but from my experience shooting an electro spyder my shots were far less accurate than the same set up with a mech frame, or my mag I had used previously.

[teufelhunden]

And another little thing that is starting to piss me off. If you decide that you want to come here and bash Mags, your post will be deleted. I will do it personally. This is a mag forum for mag owners and other gun owners alike. We dont bash other guns around here so neither will any of you bash mags. Take it to your "other " forums and do it there. If you haven't already realized what is going on, there are new owners at AGD and they deserve the same help from all of us to keep them rolling along. Its a tough enough market out there without having retards bashing your products on you own damn forum.

Wait, so all this "IONS SUCK OMG" and "Your shiny unreliable POS cheater gun".. that's not bashing other markers?

The new owners at AGD haven't done anything worth supporting. They've recycled old ideas at high prices, something any 15 year old can understand is not going to sell guns in this game.

But hey, you're the boss. I guess ignorance doesn't flee with age.

[Tunaman]

Wait, so all this "IONS SUCK OMG" and "Your shiny unreliable POS cheater gun".. that's not bashing other markers?

The new owners at AGD haven't done anything worth supporting. They've recycled old ideas at high prices, something any 15 year old can understand is not going to sell guns in this game.

But hey, you're the boss. I guess ignorance doesn't flee with age.
All of AGD's prices are lower than they have ever been. Talk about ignorant? Really...if you dont think they are worth supporting, then go to some other forum that suits your needs. And dont let the door hit you in the arse.....
And part of the reason you dont see a new electro from AGD has a little to do with the fact that AGD doesnt want to pay another company to sell a marker that AGD actually designed way back in 1972. But you didnt know that either...
They ARE working on a new marker...but you didn't know that either I guess...

[Pyroboy597]

ULT, Trigger frame, and $250 valve are all unneccesary, just like the endless supply of expensive spyder upgrades. and you dont have to pay to have your gun not chop.. although Kingman now has an anti chop bolt.. that you pay for, to have your spyder not chop.

am I the only one who thinks that if you have an electro hopper feeding faster than your max rof that you wont chop?

if you are going to say a spyder can outshoot a minimag, maybe you should specify which spyder.. as there are quite a few out there. only an electro spyder could outshoot a mag. a stock mech spyder trigger is long pre and post travel. The mag is harder but shorter, its a nice crisp trigger. which can actually result in a higher rof than a mech spyder.

If you were referring to an electro spyder, then sure, the spyder could outshoot a mag.. but then if you arent using full auto, trying to walk the trigger, or fan it or whatever will result in not the best accuracy.. where as the stock mag, at near its max rof out of box will put its paint on target due to less recoil and a more stable hold on the gun... well that will depend on how you fire your marker and how the tank is set up. but from my experience shooting an electro spyder my shots were far less accurate than the same set up with a mech frame, or my mag I had used previously.

im willing to bet that i can shoot faster on a stock Spyder Compact Deluxe than u can on a stock Minimag, and i saved myself 240$

[teufelhunden]

All of AGD's prices are lower than they have ever been. Talk about ignorant? Really...if you dont think they are worth supporting, then go to some other forum that suits your needs. And dont let the door hit you in the arse.....
And part of the reason you dont see a new electro from AGD has a little to do with the fact that AGD doesnt want to pay another company to sell a marker that AGD actually designed way back in 1972. But you didnt know that either...
They ARE working on a new marker...but you didn't know that either I guess...

You say that all of AGD's prices are lower than they've ever been.. and yet, they're still charging $300 for a stock MiniMag. I don't know about you, but when I look around, I see a whole bunch of other markers on the market with plenty of advantages over the MiniMag [and the ProClasic] at the same, or lower pricepoint. Want fast? Ion/Wrath. Want rock solid? Tippmanns are still around. Plus the used 'Mag market is hurting the new 'Mag market; as you well know, many people are far more comfortable in buying a used 'Mag than other used guns for the 'Mag's reputation of being bulletproof and easy to fix if anything is broken.

So AGD is afraid of retailers now? I'm sorry, but very few companies are successful selling their own product. Most companies, especially ones as small as AGD can not excel in both building and selling a product. You talk about how expensive it is to build a 'Mag because of the super high quality materials they come from--the only way to cover that cost is by selling more guns! And that obviously is not happening in the current way of doing things.

That's right, me and EVERYBODY ELSE had no idea about a new gun. But we've all seen great designs come and go because the company wasn't doing the business end properly.


You think people are here only to bash AGD and 'Mags, and while in some cases that may be true, in most it is not. The worst managers and military officers in the world are yes-men.. "Yes, AGD, that's good," "I agree with you.." because there are no challenges, no insights from people who otherwise might have great ideas. I'd love to see AGD crawl its way back to the position it was in a decade ago, but it's not going to happen unless stuff has taken a complete 180° under Zupe. I'm not sure if the concept of constructive criticism is foreign to you, and since it sure seems that way, here's a quick overview: Being negative and critical about things in an attempt to spur the creator to improve them. Maybe if you took a step back and looked at the people whose general message is negative but write 300 words as to why versus the twenty six word "MAGS SUCK OMG" posters, you could make a dinstinction and see where we're coming from.

[GT]

Over the years it's become apparent to me that paintball is almost entirely based on opinion. The trouble starts when we start taking opinions as facts.



Personally, I don't like RT 'mags. I think you need an adjustable reg.

I think LVL 10 sucks, it's a touchy design, I don't want to drive my gun back into the gear bag over one microscopic fit issue (I hate on/off pins).

AKA Sidewinders are hyped to hell and back, but mine has been just like anything else I've used.

A lot of people say Intimidators are cheap POS, I disagree it's definately 90% user error (I've seen people that didn't know how to remove the detents).

Tippmanns are a better value than the mags, especially at AGDs price. Once you start adding all the new stuff you run into reliablility issues that weren't there before, but all these are my opinions that I've concluded to through experiance, and I nobody can change my mind until I see whatever it is myself.

Quoted for clarity of your opinion. Until there is some kind of benchmark or standard there will be little more than opinion. I guess weight, efficeincy, bps, cps, and consistancy will have to do for now. Notice I didnt say price.

Opinion piece: 300fps is 300 fps, whether its a spyder on c02 or the hottest splamaster; at the end of the day you need a gun that works everytime; out of the box with little regard for user error and easy user servicibility. No fancy adjustments, tools, new LPRs, software updates to get the dam thing to run as purchased. All other forms of measurement are null....

When you begin to consider those points there are very few guns that fit the bill and the ones that do are made by AGD.

[A-Tach-One]

:shooting:
http://store.airgun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.catalog&categoryID=33

I was looking on AGD's site and Minimags are for sale now. Hopefully never used ones. But look at the price.. Its a bit pricey. Post what you think?

In reply to your post, if you like the minmag and can afford it, buy it! :clap:


If it is about bashing the price of the minimag, then it is not the gun you really want and should look to other options. I know if I bash somthing, it is probably nothing I would really buy anyway. :D This is not directed to anyone. :cheers:

[shartley]

Just in case folks may have missed it, I own a mag. And I love my mag. :dance:

[teufelhunden]

What youve said has been said plenty before. Its not insightful, because its nothing new. As youve said "its negative". Being negative isnt constructive. Oximoron? (No, I am not calling you a name, look it up if you dont know what it means).

From the way I read it, Tuna is fed up with the negative comments of a few non-maggers hanging out on a mag forum with the only intent to bash THE marker that this forum represents.

Id have to agree with Tuna, if thats your intent...go somewhere else. Calling what you do *constructive* is a joke ---and you know it.

Tuna sees that good things are happening, and from the sounds of it he isnt going to allow the few bashers out there to screw that up.

Get real---If you think a company can turnaround in 6 months, your not sane. Dave has only been on board since Decemeber, he surely has a vision for its future. Give it a rest.

Oxymoron, for starters.

The way I read it, Tuna is looking for only <3<3MagsOMG posts. While I can't purport to have been an AO'er since the beginning, I've seen a number of the more substantial older posts. TK, during the development of things like LX and ULE mainbodies took negative remarks and used them to improve his product. Had Tuna been deleting any posts which could, through whatever degree of distortion, be percieved as negative, those posts would never have got to TK. Hell, even the aftermarket guys react to complaints. I believe your bud Coolhand has a V2 logic frame.. probably with some improvements that came from users' complaints.

A company can be turned around in months. Read Howard Schultz's book titled Pour Your Heart Into It about the history of Starbucks. When Schultz took Sbux over in 1987, he took a company much like what AGD is percieved as being-- a company resting on its laurels, content with its small market-- and transformed it into the basis for what we know and love today. Oh, and he did it quickly.

So maybe you need to get real. Maybe sights need to be set higher. Maybe the bar needs to be raised. And maybe some people can dewad their panties and see what they're doing to help or hinder.

[teufelhunden]

Just in case folks may have missed it, I own a mag. And I love my mag. :dance:

Ditto. It's 'Mag number three in my marker history of around 15 guns.

[mag88888]

tunaman: you say AGD is working on new gun? im interested. if you cant spread the word out liud then i understand...

[shartley]

This was not addressed to me, but I feel the need to address something brought up in it:

Thanks for the spell check. I rarely go back and re-edit typos---you got the gist. Id be happy to have you spell check all my typos if youll do it for free ;)

As you said in another thread, anything can be done with an unlimited wallet. I bet that AGD would be happy to accomodate your negative complaints if you were the one funding your own suggestions. Open up that pocketbook of yours and give them a call.

(deleted content)

So get real, and put your money where your mouth is. I am doing it. Tuna is doing it. And so is Dave over at AGD. Lets see your pocketbook more, and less of your reading skills.

Or is it that you just have your panties in a wad?
You chose to put your cart behind that horse, but it is far from you “doing something” about issues mentioned by customers or the general public. No more so than a Ford Dealer actually does anything concerning Ford’s vehicles on the assembly line or their future vehicles (or the Ford Company in general), or after market auto parts people are doing something about the actual vehicles they make parts for. That is unless they are simply handing over their money to FORD so they can do something they think they should do.

RogueFactor, do you simply hand over your money to AGD so they do things you want them to do? Does Tuna? Does any other dealer or after market part manufacturer? Does anyone dig into their pockets to fund AGD research or help them produce more product which would lower each individual product cost? And buying/selling an AGD product does not count. Selling after market parts for Mags does not count. Why? Because this is not done simply to help AGD, but to make a profit as well. This I not intended as an insult, but to point out the truth.

Also to think customers and the general public must either pay for a company to do things addressing things they feel are issues or shut up, is insulting at best. This is an open internet forum. It is an owner’s group. And AO has always been open to both compliments as well as negative comments concerning Automags and AGD. To think that owners, customers, and the general public has to PAY AGD to fix things they feel are a problem or shut up is ludicrous. And to think that people can only post what they like about Mags and not what they think are issues is sad.

This thread has now degraded past anything useful. When the only thing people are willing to look at are things that make them feel good, or agree with what they think, no positive change can happen. There is a difference between pointing out what you think is a shortcoming of flaw, and slamming a product or company. And yes, negative things can lead to positive changes…. And most positive changes come from identifying negative things and shortcomings and fixing them.

[Tunaman]

This was not addressed to me, but I feel the need to address something brought up in it:

You chose to put your cart behind that horse, but it is far from you “doing something” about issues mentioned by customers or the general public. No more so than a Ford Dealer actually does anything concerning Ford’s vehicles on the assembly line or their future vehicles (or the Ford Company in general), or after market auto parts people are doing something about the actual vehicles they make parts for. That is unless they are simply handing over their money to FORD so they can do something they think they should do.

RogueFactor, do you simply hand over your money to AGD so they do things you want them to do? Does Tuna? Does any other dealer or after market part manufacturer? Does anyone dig into their pockets to fund AGD research or help them produce more product which would lower each individual product cost? And buying/selling an AGD product does not count. Selling after market parts for Mags does not count. Why? Because this is not done simply to help AGD, but to make a profit as well. This I not intended as an insult, but to point out the truth.

Also to think customers and the general public must either pay for a company to do things addressing things they feel are issues or shut up, is insulting at best. This is an open internet forum. It is an owner’s group. And AO has always been open to both compliments as well as negative comments concerning Automags and AGD. To think that owners, customers, and the general public has to PAY AGD to fix things they feel are a problem or shut up is ludicrous. And to think that people can only post what they like about Mags and not what they think are issues is sad.

This thread has now degraded past anything useful. When the only thing people are willing to look at are things that make them feel good, or agree with what they think, no positive change can happen. There is a difference between pointing out what you think is a shortcoming of flaw, and slamming a product or company. And yes, negative things can lead to positive changes…. And most positive changes come from identifying negative things and shortcomings and fixing them.Well Sam, as you know already, TK HAS listened to everything everyone has ever *****ed about regarding the Mag. He stopped the chops, , made them super light, lightened the trigger, lowered the price, made them cocker threaded and still got it rammed up his arse for doing EVERYTHING everyone has ever asked him to do. Do you think that Dave wants to go through the same crap all for naught? He isn't that stupid. He will do what HE thinks is best for the company right now, and not what a bunch of kids on an internet forum tell him to do. He wont make the same mistake again (in theory) I guarantee you that. Mags were never meant to compete with tippmanns, so no comparison should be made there. All the negative things are now gone out of the Mag so people should have no cause to ***** about them anymore. If they suck that bad, then why are they still selling after 20+ years? When people begin to realize that the Mag NEVER died and just went by the wayside for a while AGD will be much better off...as will the droves of mentally challenged kids who refuse to believe it. The hype is still alive and well...dont believe it for one minute. ;)

[GT]

Also to think customers and the general public must either pay for a company to do things addressing things they feel are issues or shut up, is insulting at best. This is an open internet forum. It is an owner’s group. And AO has always been open to both compliments as well as negative comments concerning Automags and AGD. To think that owners, customers, and the general public has to PAY AGD to fix things they feel are a problem or shut up is ludicrous. And to think that people can only post what they like about Mags and not what they think are issues is sad.

Good Lord,
We are talking about a dam paintball gun not Crown Vic's that had killed countless number of officers before Ford did a dam thing about it. Secondly there is always a cost inherent to any desgin change or fix, and yes you are expected to pay for it. Last time I checked AGD was not a DARPA project funded by the feds to build mags. If the public at large doesnt pay for change then who does.

I am at a lose as to any new negative issues for the mag. The gun has been around for nearly 20 years and a litany of issues have been addressed either by AGD or thier after market.

So what are we *****ing about today?

[teufelhunden]

The rest of the points have been made, except this one, despite being off topic.



Schultz didnt turn the company around. He bought it and expanded it(in a completely different market). Not the same.


No. But if you'd like to speak about Starbucks history, let me take off my green apron first, I have coffee all over me..

[WARPED1]

I think it is GREAT that markers are available for sale. I think it is GREAT that folks like different things. But unfortunately sometimes niche markets simply stay that way. And I think AGD is a niche market, no matter how hard they try to go head to head with other companies out there.
Well put, it all makes perfect sense. But most AO zealots will not see that. Either because they're blind devotion or they just can't read. :D

[shartley]

Youd be incorrect.

My doing something is similar to *Eddie Bauer* editions of Ford Vehicles. Everything I can do, I do with authentic AGD parts(rails, bodies, foregrips, colored triggers). Otherwise, its to AGD spec. And some of those things do address customer issues.
Hogwash, and everyone knows that. And to compare yourself to EB is laughable. You make aftermarket parts for a marker, period. And if you didn’t make money doing so I would bet you would stop.


And yes, I handed over my own money to AGD(to purchase their parts) and did that. Yes, I complained(just like you and others), and when I was rebuffed----I did it myself.

So yes, I am more than just your standard *dealer*. As is Tuna(TunaRail, TunaPack anyone?).
Again, off base and everyone can see that. Buying a base part so you can modify it to resell as your own part is not “supporting” a company, no matter how much you like that company. It is using that company to help support yourself.


The answer is simply, yes. Making a profit doesnt exclude it from counting. Only by your standards, I guess. Most of my spec parts start from AGD stock. So yes, they do count.
Not by MY standards, sorry… but by simple standards. When you make products simply to help AGD and gain no monetary benefit from it, then you can talk. After all that is what you were telling T to do…. give AGD money. You PURCHASED an item from them, nothing more. Yes that is “supporting” their company. But no more so than when you purchase a pencil at Staples. And no more than any other member who buys an AGD product. You just buy more of them, so you can sell them at a profit.


You just dont know what your talking about. This isnt meant as an insult, just that you arent privy to allot of information.
Yes it is meant as an insult, but it falls short anyways. Everyone with half a brain can see the truth, no matter how much you try to say people who don’t agree with you “don’t know what they are talking about”.


The typical response from folks who arent listened to. We heard the suggestion the first time---even the second time(and third, etc). You just didnt realize that we were being polite when you were ignored.
Sorry, but you missed my point. My point was that you are saying that people need to shut up, or PAY AGD to do what they want them to do. And I am saying that folks should be able to discuss issues and then AGD can choose what they want to do, if anything about it. It is not about not being listened to or your advice being taken, but people like you who seem to want to stop all discussions all together…. Unless they are lovefests.


If you(in the vencular; not YOU specifically Sam) think it will work, go do it yourself. Be a man, and sack up. Otherwise, let it go.
It is not up to the CUSTOMER to do something about what a company is doing. It is up to the company to listen to its customers (or potential customers) and go from there. Not every complaint that a customer has demands that customer go out and try to do things themselves.

And as your edit shows, you know I have sacked up and have my own business. And it is not my first. So I do understand issues facing businesses.


When the negativity becomes bashing, yep---its too much. And Id hope that mods will squash it. Some people just dont know when theyve gone over the line.And that goes for bashing those who have differing views with your own as well.


Well Sam, as you know already, TK HAS listened to everything everyone has ever *****ed about regarding the Mag. He stopped the chops, , made them super light, lightened the trigger, lowered the price, made them cocker threaded and still got it rammed up his arse for doing EVERYTHING everyone has ever asked him to do. Do you think that Dave wants to go through the same crap all for naught? He isn't that stupid. He will do what HE thinks is best for the company right now, and not what a bunch of kids on an internet forum tell him to do. He wont make the same mistake again (in theory) I guarantee you that. Mags were never meant to compete with tippmanns, so no comparison should be made there. All the negative things are now gone out of the Mag so people should have no cause to ***** about them anymore. If they suck that bad, then why are they still selling after 20+ years? When people begin to realize that the Mag NEVER died and just went by the wayside for a while AGD will be much better off...as will the droves of mentally challenged kids who refuse to believe it. The hype is still alive and well...dont believe it for one minute. ;)
And you think the changes were for nothing? I disagree. I think they helped save AGD. And I think that if folks didn’t complain and ask for things, they may not have been done, or in time to save AGD.

So the discussions were indeed a good thing, even if “bad” things were talked about.

I also agree that Mags were never meant to compete with Tippmanns, but they were compared directly with them in this very thread…. Even by yourself. And by entering the Woods/Rec/Scenario market, they are actually put up directly against Tippmanns whether folks like it or not. And this in itself causes some issues. I think Mags could do very well in their new market, but not by trying to be the next Tippmann replacement, but simply a different marker in the same genre of play.

And my point was also that folks should not attack others for disagreeing with them about Mags. Most of us are Mag owners. And one opinion is not any more valid because it sounds “nice” than the opinion that may not sound as nice. Like I stated, it was precisely because the problems with Mags was not only identified and discussed, but addressed that Mags can still be sold today.

Good Lord,
We are talking about a dam paintball gun not Crown Vic's that had killed countless number of officers before Ford did a dam thing about it. Secondly there is always a cost inherent to any desgin change or fix, and yes you are expected to pay for it. Last time I checked AGD was not a DARPA project funded by the feds to build mags. If the public at large doesnt pay for change then who does.

I am at a lose as to any new negative issues for the mag. The gun has been around for nearly 20 years and a litany of issues have been addressed either by AGD or thier after market.

So what are we *****ing about today?
The public does not simply hand over money to companies to address issues. The cost is passed down through product prices, yes. But if those prices are more than what the public is willing to pay, they then pay nothing. There is a balance which must be met.

Yes, AGD has addressed a whole lot of issues… which goes to show that the Mag was not the perfect marker folks keep seeming to thing it was. Or else there would not have been the laundry list of improvements which needed to be made. And I am not saying this to insult the Mag, but to point out that it is precisely the fact that complaints were made that the Mag improved… not “in spite of” as some seem to want it to look like.

And I am just saying that folks should not be so defensive and down right abusive to those who may see things differently than they do concerning Mags. Yes, MAGS SUCK posts are one thing, but many of the posts in this thread are far from being that way. And if folks can explain why they feel the way they do about Mags and offer discussions about it, even if they are not what some would consider “positive” (as in anything short of not saying there is not anything Mags can improve on) the discussions should go on.

Is AO going to not allow discussions concerning Mags or AGD that don’t have a glowing review or praise for Mags or AGD? Are they going to allow members and Moderators to attack other members personally because they may feel differently about things than they do? AO has always been about open rational discussion, whether folks agreed with others or not. And I feel THAT is what has helped change Mags.

Is AO an owners group, or simply a fan club? I for one would like to know the answer to that question.

But other than that, I think all that needs to be said has been said. There are things some of us will never agree on, and that is fine. But we need to try our best to not attack the other person, but instead address issues. And we don't need to try to bash and then silence views that are not like our own.

[Teamslayer76]

This had developed [sp] alot here. I was just stating that it's kind of expensive. Honestly it is. I do remember when mini's were like 500 bucks but that was over 5 years ago. Even in 2000 you could get one for under 300 bucks. But if anyone noticed my post. YOU CAN PURCHASE A PROCLASSIC WITH A MINI-MAG BODIE FOR 10 MORE DOLLARS!. The pro-classic is a much better deal.

And somebody on page one said something along the lines of how they hate kids who go on the net look at guns and see something thats old and expensive and complain about it. And not knowing what it is. Well I think anyone here knows what Automags Mini's ect are, I mean its Automags.org come on.... Also I've owned many mags. Sold my BRAND NEW PG GEAR MINI MAG with a complete set up for $170 on ebay a few months back.

[yakitori]

what I dont understand is why AGD keeps putting together old style guns and slapping a NEW name on it. Just cause the parts are new (probably just old stock) doesnt mean the gun is any better.

Mags are not all that bad guns, but they have ALWAYS been overpriced. Who wants a gun that will last 10 years anyway? I dont even know what Ill be doing in 10 years, much less still be shooting the same gun. I may not even be playing paintball in 10 years.

I think all mag stuff is overpriced, and I doubt I will ever by or shoot another mag. Im not trying to diss them. They are great for what they are. To me they are basically a high end mech woodsball marker.

AGD needs to do something new and differnt, not scrounge up some of their old stock and build markers out of them and put a steep pricetag on it and call it new. Its old. Minimags are old.

And there are A LOT of markers that are better for a cheaper price. Not just an Ion, but many more.

[teufelhunden]

Then surely you were well versed in the history of the company-- 8 years ago.

Schultz dropped his investors' 4 million on a company with no real direction. Starbucks was a 5 store chain selling premium coffee.. similiar to how AGD is a small name selling what's precieved to be a premium product. The same way you can get coffee for $5/lb, you can get a semi auto gun for $100 instead of $300. New ownership comes in and changes where the company is headed, thereby preserving the company and expanding it.

Let's see if AGD/Zupe is able to step up to the last sentence of that history to make the Sbux mirror a bit better.

And I'd like a triple tall nonfat latté, please. 19 second shots, if you don't mind ;)

[shartley]

One need not be a philanthropist to help :D

Lets go read another book so we can regurgitate others works. Big hat, no cattle. ;)
Again you attempt to belittle and insult me, and again it fails. LOL It shows how little you know. Why don’t you either stick to issues or stop flapping your gums (or in this case moving your fingers)? When you can’t simply discuss or debate issues and have to try to belittle or insult others it shows how little you have to stand on.

Big hat no cattle? How about little insults no valid points? How does that hat fit? Just drop it. I am tired of your childishness.

[magmonkey]

"AGD needs to do something new and differnt, not scrounge up some of their old stock and build markers out of them and put a steep pricetag on it and call it new. Its old. Minimags are old."

what if anything will keep them afloat until they can come out with the next wonder marker that is 10 years ahead of its time?

the old stand by a bullitproof design
yes it costs a bit more but for me I would rather pay a bit more for a well thought out marker design then to pay more for a regurgated milling pattern.

and putting a steep pricetag on it... cutting the cost of the marker in half was not good enough for you... it takes more money to produce a mag then your average semi

would you rather they cheapen them up and get a bad rap for there quality slipping?

[teufelhunden]

You're more or less proving the point I'm trying to make.. but ok..

I've got the book by my side, let me type it up for you..

Starbucks created its 15 million customers. AGD created customers in the 90s-- without the durability of rental 'Mags, what semi-auto would be offered as a rental at fields for first timers? Then those same players, when buying their own guns, would buy what was familiar, the same reason Tippmanns sell today. AGD created its market then, the same way Sbux created its market.

With Starbucks, one cup of coffee will turn a few cents profit. With AGD, one gun will turn a much higher profit-- I'm not educated enough to make a guess, but I'm sure it's not $5/gun. AGD doesn't need 15 million customers a week to be profitable and expand.

Starbucks and AGD are obviously in different industries with different issues to deal with, but that does not mean they've extremely different business profiles.

[shartley]

I dont think I attempted on this one :D

When you have a big hat and no cattle, there is little credence given to YOUR statements(yep, I do mean YOU this time)...

I personally know way too many people that have left AO directly and indirectly because of you Sam. That speaks volumes.
What? Because I am not driving a Rolls and wear a Rolex Watch? Because my business is not HUGE? LOL You are funny, and sad. To think someone’s financial status or business status determines whether what they say is true or not is the height of arrogance on your part.

As for people leaving AO directly or indirectly “because” of me…. I have THAT much power? Wow, now that is sure one big hat and a lot of cattle to boot. After all, if nothing I said matters and is of little credence, why bother? Why try to insult me every chance you get? Now THAT speaks volumes.

I know a lot of people who have left AO because of people like YOU as well, and they were a greater loss than anyone who would leave because they didn’t like me. But again, you try to make the issue about bashing Sam and making Sam look bad…. Because you failed to prove your points.

I am through with you, you are not worth the time it takes to comment any more. If you have any further attempts to insult me, feel free to PM or E-Mail me, it does not belong on the forum and is not what the topic of the thread is. Obviously you can’t discuss issues in a civil manner without trying to belittle, attack, or insult those around you.

[WARPED1]

what if anything will keep them afloat until they can come out with the next wonder marker that is 10 years ahead of its time?

The mag was 10 years ahead of its time. IN 1990!

[Wheelman]

AGD needs to do something new and differnt, not scrounge up some of their old stock and build markers out of them and put a steep pricetag on it and call it new. Its old. Minimags are old.


I'd rather cling to the old for dear life, happier times they were.

[warbeak2099]

Exactly what a person with a big hat, no cattle would say.

Well, he's right. But I gotta be honest, no offence or anything but you are really arrogant a lot Rogue. I think some people are afraid to say it, but you're not the nicest guy sometimes. And look at yourself, you are a small business just like Shartley. Would you want people thinking you don't know what you're talking about just because you aren't running a huge operation?

A lot of the time, these smaller guys know more of what they're talking about than the bigger companies.

[Fred]

And another little thing that is starting to piss me off. If you decide that you want to come here and bash Mags, your post will be deleted. I will do it personally. This is a mag forum for mag owners and other gun owners alike. We dont bash other guns around here so neither will any of you bash mags. Take it to your "other " forums and do it there. If you haven't already realized what is going on, there are new owners at AGD and they deserve the same help from all of us to keep them rolling along. Its a tough enough market out there without having retards bashing your products on you own damn forum.

Damn straight, bout time somebody started steering this ship back to where it used to sail.

:hail:

[magmonkey]

The mag was 10 years ahead of its time. IN 1990!

my point exactly, now we need another ten year ahead of its time design ,,, however that cost a great deal of money and alot of time
so they need to keep moving somthing before they can come up with the next design

[TAW]

To answer the original question I would buy the Pro Classic with the Minimag body option $239 vs. $295 if I wanted a marker that I could pass on to my kids 10-15 years later. The last time I bought a new Mag at that price they didn't come with a barrel, asa or airline.

I tell ya, The people that wine about the old Automag been called a NEW Pro-Classic just because it has RT-Pro parts would wine if AGD tried to pass it off as just an Automag.

My respect for Tunaman and RogueFactor just went up.

If you don't have anything nice to say about Mags then go away.

Unless you can hire your own engineers to redesign it to prove your point. Wait, what you can't, then let me get the door for you. Bye, Don't write.

I use Automags because they work very well for my playing style. But I know there are markers that will be better for different playing styles and more power to you for finding the perfect marker for you.

[WARPED1]

I paid $450 for my Classic in 1990. Barrel, ASA, and steel braided line............. the mag was top of the line then, only gun that could compete was the Autococker. And they were about the same price.

[teufelhunden]

Lets agree to disagree.

Works.

[FlawleZ]

I also agree that Mags were never meant to compete with Tippmanns, but they were compared directly with them in this very thread…. Even by yourself. And by entering the Woods/Rec/Scenario market, they are actually put up directly against Tippmanns whether folks like it or not. And this in itself causes some issues. I think Mags could do very well in their new market, but not by trying to be the next Tippmann replacement, but simply a different marker in the same genre of play.



That's exactly what they are. Tippmanns have been in the recreational aspect of paintball since they first entered the paintball market as a whole. This has been Tippmann's favorite flavor and has worked VERY well for them and to say they succeed in this market would be an understatement. However, AGD has obviously decided to focus more towards the same market and aspect of paintball that Tippmann has, but you can't expect them to immediately overwhelm the scenario/recreational market in just under a year or so time. With slightly better marketing strategy in the world of paintball I think AGD will have a complete turnaround. It may not happen next month, or even next year. I doubt AGD is going anywhere rapidly in either direction so everyone just needs to sit tight and suppport the product and company they like. If it's AGD and their current, past, or future product line, GREAT, if not, please don't dwell here with negative attitudes.

Patience is of virtue. ;)

[Kevmaster]

Exactly what a person with a big hat, no cattle would say.

Being as right as you are, as much of the time as you purport to be, I am surprised you dont have more cattle. :confused:

a very true statement. but as a former small business owner on another forum, im guessing what you, sam, tuna etc all do is a side job. maybe not for you, but i know it is for a lot of AO's 'dealers' If you're making a living off your annod ule bodies, tom's sellin em to ya at an insane price. besides, if youre making aftermarket parts for a product that has a production line as small as AGDs, you can't be in it for the money and you certainly can't grow to have some cattle...as you would say.


Well, he's right. But I gotta be honest, no offence or anything but you are really arrogant a lot Rogue. I think some people are afraid to say it, but you're not the nicest guy sometimes. And look at yourself, you are a small business just like Shartley. Would you want people thinking you don't know what you're talking about just because you aren't running a huge operation.


while i dont think he would like his business compared to sams (nor would I for that matter) i think you're right. i remember i voted 'against' an idea of yours in a poll maybe a year ago. you took it upon yourself to try to chew me up on AIM to figure out why. maybe thats part of your 'market research' but certainly i'd rather be treated in a humane way.

that said, i've never bought anything from you or sam nor have tried to. i dont know what kind of dealers you are. your stuff just doesnt appeal to me, as the only mag related item i have is an Xmag...and theres only so much you can upgrade. Similar lines with sam regarding his clothing. you both may well take care of your customers in excellent manner...

[ShooterJM]

Holy dissapearing posts batman! :dance:

[JMAN]

Mags will start gaining a lot of territory with Rec/WoodsBall Players if they market their products correctly and maintain quality/customer service. Granted it won't be an over night thing. This is coming from a Tippmann A5 & former 98c owner which is upgrading to a Paradigm. Mags are becoming very popular with Tippmann owners, just take a look at A5OG.net

[Target Practice]

Holy dissapearing posts batman! :dance:

I know, I know. Let me tell you, I didn't delete it. Nor did I get a PM of any kind. Oh well, I guess some people around here don't like the truth.

Quick, someone get a screenshot of this before the Masked Delete-er strikes again!

[Lohman446]

And another little thing that is starting to piss me off. If you decide that you want to come here and bash Mags, your post will be deleted. I will do it personally. This is a mag forum for mag owners and other gun owners alike. We dont bash other guns around here so neither will any of you bash mags. Take it to your "other " forums and do it there. If you haven't already realized what is going on, there are new owners at AGD and they deserve the same help from all of us to keep them rolling along. Its a tough enough market out there without having retards bashing your products on you own damn forum.

I need to preface. I have great respect for AGD, for this forum, and for the moderators that deal with this forum for little to nothing.

That being said, is this a new rule on these forums? I can voice my opinion as long as I do so respectfully, and it is not negative towards mags or AGD? I have voiced a lot of negative opinions about mags in the past, I would like to think I have done so respectfully and in a well reasoned manner. Is this no longer acceptable? Just trying to understand the rules here.

[GT]

Holy dissapearing posts batman!


So what are we *****ing about today?

I am glad to see this is still here. Lets all agree that GT rules. :headbang:

[Target Practice]

Mine was better. But hey, you get to say it, but not me.

*cough*

[Tunaman]

If you think have a way to bash mags or agd respectfully or tastefully on this forum well then go ahead and try. If you dont like the Product line that AGD has to offer then don't buy it. You can go to the owners group of your liking and have fun there. ;)

[Lohman446]

If you think have a way to bash mags or agd respectfully or tastefully on this forum well then go ahead and try. If you dont like the Product line that AGD has to offer then don't buy it. You can go to the owners group of your liking and have fun there. ;)


Pointing out issues is different than bashing a marker. Mags could ahve better efficiency, I think mags should have had eyes, I think there are a lot of things taht could have been changed. Pointing out negatives need not be bashing. Hiding from them leads to... well nothing new.

[JimmyBeam]

its almost like an insecurity issue. people are aware that mags are ancient relics, and they just havent come to terms with it yet. and thats not bashing. its the truth. besides cosmetics, there really hasnt been anything done to improve the valve. in the past few years. and if the new owners want to keep it that way, well what do they expect from everyone? how long do they think they will continue to sell?

[SlartyBartFast]

people are aware that mags are ancient relics,

So? What "new' development is ABSOLUTELY necessary to paintball?

The "latest-and-greatest" is often just cosmetic these days or provides negligible advantage.

Saying they're relics IS bashing.

Saying they're inefficient or slow is complaining.

Saying they NEED eyes is opinion.

Discussing ideas and alternatives calmly, impersonally, and positively. THAT's constructive criticism.

As for disappearing posts, well I missed it.

But it probably wasn't the TRUTH. Probably a big ol' helping og opinionation. Usually the first sign is that the transgressor defends their actions with "Guess they can't handle the truth." instead of perhaps moderating their opinion to civilised discussion.

As for the original intent of this thread, GET OVER IT FOR #####(insert deity) SAKE!

Minimags sell well used. Why shouldn'y AGD capitalise on that? The direct from manufacturer price is ALWAYS the worst price to buy at in a sane and equitable marketplace.

If you don't like the price, shop elsewhere. If you don't like the marker shut up already and just don't buy one. If it's a bad business decision AGD will learn soon enough.

[Tunaman]

its almost like an insecurity issue. people are aware that mags are ancient relics, and they just havent come to terms with it yet. and thats not bashing. its the truth. besides cosmetics, there really hasnt been anything done to improve the valve. in the past few years. and if the new owners want to keep it that way, well what do they expect from everyone? how long do they think they will continue to sell?Improve the valve to what state? The valve has been PROVEN to be the fastest recharging valve in the industry without shootdown bar none. If anyone can prove otherwise, please feel free to post the data. You will be looking for that data till the cows come home. They may be based off an old design, but that design still hasn't been beaten yet...by anyone. Apparently you are easily drawn to the hype. Wanna buy a bridge? ;) :D

[hitech]

Improve the valve to what state?

Increase the efficiency (eliminate the wasted air).


:cheers:

[JimmyBeam]

Improve the valve to what state? The valve has been PROVEN to be the fastest recharging valve in the industry without shootdown bar none. If anyone can prove otherwise, please feel free to post the data. You will be looking for that data till the cows come home. They may be based off an old design, but that design still hasn't been beaten yet...by anyone. Apparently you are easily drawn to the hype. Wanna buy a bridge? ;) :D

so it has the fastest recharge rate.....if your going to actually be shooting 26 bps or whatever it is, you could probably sit there and watch your tank pressure haul butt down to 1k. and we all know mags dont like the tank to be < 1k.

look tuna, i loved my mag, but i also love to play out in the desert where there is no all day air. and me and two friends share a scuba, and a gas hog just doesnt cut it. why should i be limited to the time i can spend out there playing becasue my mag sucks air down? it served its purpose well....but now i can literally play the entire day and be confident that we wont run out of air.

your a trooper, i'll give you that, but instead of defending obvious flaws, why doesnt someone try to improve or fix them? thats what gets me the most about AGD. i dont want to say they dont care anymore, but its like they gave up. sure anyone can produce bodies, but why not redesign the heart of the mag, its valve. toms gone now, and I havent heard anything from the new owners regarding any innovations. and as long as mags continue to waste air (and yes when your 20 miles from town air becomes as precious as paint) i wont be playing with one. sure i miss the feel and look of my mag, but numbers, or shots in this situation do make all the diference for me.

[Tunaman]

Increase the efficiency (eliminate the wasted air).


:cheers:The inherent design of this valve does waste a LITTLE air. There was not enough of an improvement that could have been made to justifying changing the entire design for a few saved PSI. Thats just the way it is. Polishing any and all metal to metal and metal to urethane contact surfaces does improve the effiency a LITTLE, but the related costs do not justify changing the design. You can't have it all at the same time. In an imaginary world we would all like to to have the fastest AND most efficient valve in our markers but right NOW...TODAY...that's all we have Man! Take it for what it is! Complaining and yapping and crying and whining that it sucks...its a relic...etc. is NOT gonna make it any better! Constructive criticism is all fine and good, but Tom listened to that and fixed most of EVERYTHING that people complained about over the last few years. There isn't anything more worth fixing! The design is tried, trued, and DONE! WHY are people STILL complaining? Give the Guy some credit for Petes sake! SHOW ME A BETTER ONE AND I WILL SELL AND FIX THOSE INSTEAD! SHOW ME A BETTER ONE!!!!!!!!!! :cuss:
These posts is not directed at any person directly, it's just that I don't see where people are coming from. I am very angry about the people who feel the need to come here and post negative sentiments about the Company and the products they make. Is it really necessary anymore? Aren't we all above that?

How would the Tippman Owners group feel if I was to go over there and start bashing them? What if i was to go over there and start picking their guns apart? Is the Tippman a relic too?
Is the spool valve a relic? Are Palmers' guns relics? Are revvies no good anymore either? Is everything but the latest, shiniest, and electronically- modified- to- cheat paintball guns no good anymore? Is paintball still fun for you or do you wind up in a shouting match with someone everytime you play? Please feel free to ask yourself these questions.

[hitech]

Easier said than done :cheers:

I recall Tom stating that he worked on this issue, and couldnt come up with more than ~10% savings. Not enough for a re-design.

I just cant seem to find where he said it...

Yes it is! And I remember Tom saying that. I have three new ideas, but two of them are unlikely to be tested.

I don't know if you read the telescoping power tube idea, but that has promise.

The other is shifting the valve back an 1/8 inch or so (and extending the bolt by the same) to hopefully allow the air to vent from the dump chamber faster. That would increase the behind the ball pressure and should allow a lower chamber pressure to achieve the same velocity.

The third is a longer effective length barrel. You don't have a cocker threaded barrel with a 12+ inch effective length you'd like to sell me cheap, do you? ;)

[Tunaman]

:D
so it has the fastest recharge rate.....if your going to actually be shooting 26 bps or whatever it is, you could probably sit there and watch your tank pressure haul butt down to 1k. and we all know mags dont like the tank to be < 1k.

look tuna, i loved my mag, but i also love to play out in the desert where there is no all day air. and me and two friends share a scuba, and a gas hog just doesnt cut it. why should i be limited to the time i can spend out there playing becasue my mag sucks air down? it served its purpose well....but now i can literally play the entire day and be confident that we wont run out of air.

your a trooper, i'll give you that, but instead of defending obvious flaws, why doesnt someone try to improve or fix them? thats what gets me the most about AGD. i dont want to say they dont care anymore, but its like they gave up. sure anyone can produce bodies, but why not redesign the heart of the mag, its valve. toms gone now, and I havent heard anything from the new owners regarding any innovations. and as long as mags continue to waste air (and yes when your 20 miles from town air becomes as precious as paint) i wont be playing with one. sure i miss the feel and look of my mag, but numbers, or shots in this situation do make all the diference for me.Look Man. I certainly understand your position. Being out there with not enough air certainly sucks. But how about taking into consideration the APPLICATION you are using it for? Why take the mag out there when you know you might run out of air? Maybe bringing a more efficent gun will suit your needs better and save the Mag for times of lesser demand. Maybe your Mag is not good for what you need it for. The Mag won't do it all for you. Nobody ever said it could. Its just one of MANY great paintball guns on the market. We are trying to hang on to that fact. Ya wit us? or agin us? ;)

[hitech]

Remember, I shoot an eMag. I don't own a non-mag semi. I still think the positives outweigh the negatives. However, I can see the negative. It needs to be more efficient. I just wish I had the resources to test out a few theories. :D

:cheers:

[JimmyBeam]

. We are trying to hang on to that fact. Ya wit us? or agin us? ;)

im totally with you. and i understand where you are coming from. but nothings impossible, and someone has to have some good ideas for improvement or innovation.

[Tunaman]

Yes it is! And I remember Tom saying that. I have three new ideas, but two of them are unlikely to be tested.

I don't know if you read the telescoping power tube idea, but that has promise.

The other is shifting the valve back an 1/8 inch or so (and extending the bolt by the same) to hopefully allow the air to vent from the dump chamber faster. That would increase the behind the ball pressure and should allow a lower chamber pressure to achieve the same velocity.

The third is a longer effective length barrel. You don't have a cocker threaded barrel with a 12+ inch effective length you'd like to sell me cheap, do you? ;)People also seem to forget the fact that the valve is patented. I would love to take this valve and make it better. But it doesn't belong to me. And the only one who could do that would be Tom...and he is gone. So that's it. That will be as far as this valve goes. Somebody PLEASE drop a 1/2 million bucks on R+D to make a better one that does it all. I will be waiting patiently
:D

[JimmyBeam]

so the patent did go with tom or did the new owners get that too?

[Tunaman]

Remember, I shoot an eMag. I don't own a non-mag semi. I still think the positives outweigh the negatives. However, I can see the negative. It needs to be more efficient. I just wish I had the resources to test out a few theories. :D

:cheers:Now we are getting some where. RESOURCES! This is a small company. They are trying to hang on in this nasty market. Does everyone REALLY know how hard that is? Its so hard even WITHOUT guys bashing your products on your own dam forum. Do you know what I mean?

[Tunaman]

so the patent did go with tom or did the new owners get that too?Tom owns the valve.

[JimmyBeam]

hmm....i hope everyone has their powerball tickets

[usmc8892]

I will be among the first in line when AGD releases their new design !!!

[Tunaman]

I will be among the first in line when AGD releases their new design !!!Right behind me of course! :D

[dj89]

Right behind me of course! :D
I call 3rd. ;) , wait what are we talking about?

[JKR]

I feel for the guy with the need for efficiency. Heck, I play renegade 'ball too and can relate. However, for 95% of the playing public, a less efficient design (within reason of course) isn't that big a deal. Pay-to-play fields have all day air and getting a 25% reduction in shots per tank isn't painful for most folks.

If efficiency is the only thing that anyone can find wrong with the Automag valve, I say that is a testament to a proven design. Hey, Formula 1 cars aren't efficient either!

JKR

[Beemer]

Gee Magman, I could tell you what that post showed, but you wouldnt believe me. Try for a little class and style next time will ya.



I don't own a non-mag semi.

Thats classic. But have ya ever.

Nice hammer swing Tuna. I love it.

Lohman...Remember dont over tuna[tune] it. or your Mag either. :cheers: jk couldnt help myself
Keg party any one.. :ninja:

Heres the letters for ya. AAGDATT = All AGD All The Time

[shartley]

I agree, the major issue for me that has yet to really be solved with Mags is the efficiency. Thankfully though I can still get ALMOST a whole day of use out of one fill because of my playing style. But I understand that many can not.

As Tuna pointed out, maybe folks need to examine why they purchase a marker. What is it’s intended use. But that is a catch 22 now for AGD in my opinion since they are now going after the Rec/Woods/Scenario market. And many times those genres require more air between fills or are played where they may not have compressors handy.

When they were focusing on the Speedball/Tournament market it was easy to pass off the efficiency issue because games tended to be shorter and at places where air was easily obtained. It is a much harder sell to tell someone who may require more efficiency that your marker is an upgrade from what they are currently using (which seems to be the thing I keep hearing), but then tell them in the next breath that they may need to determine if the Mag is really what they need for their playing style and circumstances.

I would also LOVE for the valve (without modifications) to be able to work with both CO2 and HPA. I think that would help increase sales as well.

As for Tom still owning the valve, he may want to think about (or may already have) licensing the rights to it. Paintball players would benefit and he would still get a slice of the pie.

Now, there seems to be this feeling that if folks don’t stand up and say the Mag is flawless or they say things could be better they HATE Mags and AGD, or they don’t “support” them. It may be correct for some, but not for most. I know it isn’t for me. You don’t have to like every aspect of a company to support them. You don’t have to like every aspect of a product to support it. And showing displeasure with things you feel are issues concerning either does not in itself make you a “hater” of either.

By the very nature of things, to get better you must see the flaws and then do your best to fix them. Sometimes it is hard. Sometimes it takes money. And sometimes it just can’t be done given any number of reasons. But that does not mean we close our eyes to the flaws and don’t strive to do what we can to correct them. And that is what AO has helped do over the years, where it could, and where its voices were listened to…. And that included those voices that didn’t march in step with diehard loyalists. Just because you don’t always toe the party line does not mean you have any less love for the product.

But I have to admit that sometimes it is those who surround a product or company that determine whether someone sticks by them (or not), not the products themselves. And when the owners of that product get a reputation for being a certain way (deserved or not), and that way is not liked by people, the product can suffer. So showing “support” can actually backfire if not done in a positive manner, and do more harm than those people perceive as putting the product down.

At least that is how I see it....
:cheers:

[Maggot6]

Bah, I want to seem Tom post in this thread....

I was just thinking about what (I think) tuna said earlier; how everyone asked for better "___" in the automag and he gave it to us. I'm trying to think of a non cosmetic upgrade that could be made for the automag/rt mag(s)...We have 2x triggers, we have different foregrips, we have different bodies(powerfeed vs vertical), WE have autococker threading and Twist Lock.. THe only think I can thinking of is from the ASA, you could get some hardline or macro through the grip frame, and into the rail and then into the valve from the outside. So you could still go the old way of just running it on the outside straight from the asa and then the receieving macrofitting... Sorta like the panther.

[GT]

How many shots do you guys need? My last mag I got around 1500 per fill and my emag could shoot down to around 600-650psi. If you need more shots per fill buy a bigger tank or a new gun. There are only two guns that are mild improvements; excal/vik and some cockers. Both of which are about 1lb heavier than or twice as expensive as an rtp.

It called compromise.....

[Wheelman]

I feel for the guy with the need for efficiency. Heck, I play renegade 'ball too and can relate. However, for 95% of the playing public, a less efficient design (within reason of course) isn't that big a deal. Pay-to-play fields have all day air and getting a 25% reduction in shots per tank isn't painful for most folks.

If efficiency is the only thing that anyone can find wrong with the Automag valve, I say that is a testament to a proven design. Hey, Formula 1 cars aren't efficient either!

JKR


I gotta agree, I guess the only reason I have no gripes about the efficiency of the valve (am I the only one with no gripes?) is when I play I'm within walking distance of a fill station. But even with that aside I'm not really that unhappy with the efficiency of it, I guess I never noticed it sucked gas. Of course I did own an old school shocker for a while too :tard: I'd have to say I'm like 99.9% satisfied with my mag, the .01% can probably be traced to user error.

Look at it this way, do people gripe because the Mustang GT is a gas hog? No, because they know for the high performance of the car the gas usage is a necessary evil. Can't the same be said here? Call it a necessary evil if you will and be done with it.

[shartley]

When it comes to efficiency the “need” argument has some merit, but is not the only thing to look at.

The more shots you can get per fill is always a good thing. Did we need to move from 12Grams to CA? Did we need to move from pump or single action to semi? Did we need to move from stick feeds to hoppers and then motorized hoppers? Some would say yes to these things and some would say no.

When you go to determine what car you drive don’t you look to see how far you can go per gallon of gas? I know most do. But would you ever hear a car salesman say “But honestly, how far do you NEED to go between fillips?” to try to sell someone a truck or suv? Not likely. The selling point is usually the other way around or the issue is quickly diverted to another topic.

The main things I feel should always be looked at, or at least discussed, concerning marker improvement (for ANY marker) is consistency and efficiency. Styling of course play a factor in sales as well and should not be overlooked (that is why we also see styling change in cars as well, not just mechanics), but that is another issue.

Now for the Mustang GT and race car analogy. I would agree if the Mag were being sold as a race car… but it is not. It is not being sold now in direct competition with Angels and other “race cars” who drive on “short tracks”. But with that said I will point out that the gas mileage of Mustangs IS griped at by Mustang owners. It is in fact a common topic of discussion… how to get the most power with also the best mileage. But diehard mustang owners/fans don’t get all upset when the topic is brought up… how do I know? I own a Mustang and read Mustang forums. ;)

Yes, compromises often have to be made. Yes, folks are often willing to deal with less efficient cars, and markers. But to strive for better efficiency should not be a taboo subject or treated as an unrealistic goal. It should BE the goal… or at least one of them in my opinion. It is precisely because of those who are never satisfied with status quo (and look for things to be BETTER) that things evolve and improve. And if done in a positive manner, it is a good thing, not bad.

[Wheelman]

I forgot you had a mustang, but I basically used it as an example because I'm in love with it (not yours specifically) but I may have my facts wrong. I know when I talk cars with my friends and we are looking to high performance I don't think gas mileage has ever come up, of course these are the same guys that buy new tires every other week too. oh well

[Raven001]

It seams easier to criticize the shortcomings of the Mag than it is to solve them. That being said I don’t believe one should remain silent in order to be loyal. My RT goes through air faster than my 68 Classic and my Classic went through air faster than my Cocker. I point that out, as do others, in the hope that AGD comes up with a fix for that problem or solves it entirely with it’s new in the works (for some time) secret marker.

Regarding the interaction between some members. I don’t know what animosity exists between Sharltey and others but his comments on this thread have not been disrespectful nor would I consider them to be Mag bashing. I understand that Tunaman and others have probably heard “Mags Suck!” so many times that any criticism gets their goat and they lash out. Still I think one needs to step back, read things again and then respond in the manner that we all complain is missing from AO nowadays.

On deleting posts. If a post is deleted, how can we be sure that it was solely for saying nothing other than “Mags Suck!”?

[Lohman446]

Look at it this way, do people gripe because the Mustang GT is a gas hog? No, because they know for the high performance of the car the gas usage is a necessary evil. Can't the same be said here? Call it a necessary evil if you will and be done with it.

It is not a necessary evil though. My Shocker, Ion, countless DMxs, Timmies, etc get better efficiency and have arguably equal if not better performance.

[shartley]

I forgot you had a mustang, but I basically used it as an example because I'm in love with it (not yours specifically) but I may have my facts wrong. I know when I talk cars with my friends and we are looking to high performance I don't think gas mileage has ever come up, of course these are the same guys that buy new tires every other week too. oh well
No problem. It's all good. It also depends on what they want their Mustang to do. The tire issue you bring up is also discussed often among owners.

Do you want a track car, a street car, or something in-between. And what you want your car to do will determine what you do and what your compromises will be.

I think this also applies to Mags and other markers. There is often a wide range of needs and requirements, as well as desires. And what you want your marker to do for you will dictate what is best for it and you.

But honestly at the end of the day, I don’t think anyone can argue that the more efficient a marker is the better it is for the owner, no matter what needs and uses they intend it for. Same with gas mileage. If folks could get the same power from a sports/muscle car but drive twice as far on any given fill-up, I don’t think you would hear any complaints…. And that car would probably sell more because of it.

[SlartyBartFast]

People also seem to forget the fact that the valve is patented. I would love to take this valve and make it better. But it doesn't belong to me. And the only one who could do that would be Tom...and he is gone. So that's it. That will be as far as this valve goes.

You can patent improvements to existing patents. It doesn't take Tom. You'd undoubtably have to pay royalties, but you'd have to pay R&D to develop from the ground up.


How many shots do you guys need? My last mag I got around 1500 per fill and my emag could shoot down to around 600-650psi. If you need more shots per fill buy a bigger tank or a new gun.

Yes, please give some numbers. All the belly-aching and complaining is just subjecive drivel unless you can actually talk about FACTS.

People complain to no end about efficiency, pressure left in the tank, etc., etc.

But, Manike and others would come on and show that they operate their mags at around 600-650psi and would be ignored.

What performance are other guns operating at low pressures and "emptying" the tank getting? How many shots TOTAL are they firing?


It is not a necessary evil though. My Shocker, Ion, countless DMxs, Timmies, etc get better efficiency and have arguably equal if not better performance.

Really? Numbers please.

Yet, once again, paintballers as a whole will be shown to be far more interested in rumour and hype than hard evidence or experimentation.

The problem I see is that many don't have a clue about the compromises required when building a product and then tuning it.

In the car world, most people understand the basic concept of tuning a car for either performance OR effeciency (until the advent of advanced VVT systems). Or the idea of detuning or limiting an engine to improve reliability. In paintball however, most are ignorant of the action/reaction of their tuning and modification efforts or the compromises of each marker design.

Also, the paintball world is filled with hormone addled idiots who clamour for "upgrades". Who the heck "upgrades" a Ferrari, a Maclaren, Viper, Lamborgini, or other top end car? Sure some do, but few complain about "upgradeability". Heck even few the ricers and moders who colour their cars, add body kits, and electronics claim their work is "upgrades". It's just mods.

In paintball, players buy the latest thing, all the "upgrades", and end up with a 1000$+ spyder or spyder clone when they could have bought any nuber of high-end markers and had better right out of the box. For the Mag, I can only shake my head at all the idiots who clamoured for the X-Valve and proclaimed the great "upgrade" when they already had RT valves.

They are also dazzled by shiney new things and adamant in their delusions based on brand loyalty and opinions based on prejudice and rumour.

The same people who argue the Mag is ancient, that the design is old, that the Emag was a cobbled together electro. They're the same who say little to nothing about the ancient cobbled together design of the Autococker or the many different Electro-cocker designs. Nothing new in Syders since Kingman released the first one.

I think that's what gets on the nerves of AGD supporters.

[hitech]

That’s classic. But have ya ever.


My first semi was conversion from Glenn back in '91. I wanted a 68 automag, but could barely afford the conversion. And Glenn was the local guy. ;)

[Lohman446]

Yes, please give some numbers. All the belly-aching and complaining is just subjecive drivel unless you can actually talk about FACTS.

People complain to no end about efficiency, pressure left in the tank, etc., etc.

But, Manike and others would come on and show that they operate their mags at around 600-650psi and would be ignored.

What performance are other guns operating at low pressures and "emptying" the tank getting? How many shots TOTAL are they firing?

Really? Numbers please.

You would think for all the times I ask for quantitative analalysis that I would have it when I made a statement. I don't - next time I'm playing with an X-valved mag I'll make it a point to pay attention to numbers more. For now its quantitative. Are you honestly suggesting that a mag is as efficient as - say a timmy or a shocker? If you honestly beleive that then I will admit that I may be wrong, and take time, someday, to get the numbers to see. I will admit my perceptions, without numbers, may be wrong.



Yet, once again, paintballers as a whole will be shown to be far more interested in rumour and hype than hard evidence or experimentation.

The problem I see is that many don't have a clue about the compromises required when building a product and then tuning it.

In the car world, most people understand the basic concept of tuning a car for either performance OR effeciency (until the advent of advanced VVT systems). Or the idea of detuning or limiting an engine to improve reliability. In paintball however, most are ignorant of the action/reaction of their tuning and modification efforts or the compromises of each marker design.

Are you telling me then that you cannot have performance and efficiency in the same marker? I don't think it is the same as a car, I think its a bad example. We are not discussing a higher FPS per shot and thus getting less efficiency. I mean, 454 efficiency sucks if you are going to do nothing but go back and forth from work at 70MPH. Yet all a any marker does (or should do) is fire paintballs at 300FPS at whatever you pull the trigger - teh same as any of the "super" markers So the mag is not some super performer when compared to them to give it an excuse for poor efficiency (arguable if it exists) in my mind.

[JimmyBeam]

my mag could of gotten alot more shots off a fill if it were to go deeper into the tank. but right around 1k psi, it starting acting up. and thats 1k psi worth of shots i could have gotten. my new marker shoots until there is about 150 psi is left.

[hitech]

I can only shake my head at all the idiots who clamoured for the X-Valve and proclaimed the great "upgrade" when they already had RT valves.


:rofl:

[SlartyBartFast]

my mag could of gotten alot more shots off a fill if it were to go deeper into the tank. but right around 1k psi, it starting acting up. and thats 1k psi worth of shots i could have gotten. my new marker shoots until there is about 150 psi is left.

To make a change to how "deep" into the tank the marker can fire is no small change. It would mean a redesign of the entire AIR valve and bolt.

Also how "deep" you can shoot may be completely meaningless. Do a search for the many efficiency threads. I've made the point before.

What is important is how many shots per tank you get. how much air left is irrelevant unless you're getting poor low pressure fills.

How many shots have you made with your new marker with 150psi left and how many shots have you made with your mag once the tank is at 900-1000psi?

[SlartyBartFast]

Are you telling me then that you cannot have performance and efficiency in the same marker? I don't think it is the same as a car, I think its a bad example. We are not discussing a higher FPS per shot and thus getting less efficiency.

But we ARE talking about higher recharge rates, or more reactive triggers. Consider the difference between tuning for low speed torque or high top speed in a car. Or tuning for fast acceleration to 100 compared to maximum fuel efficiency at 100.

Kind of annoying to get the demand for data thrown back at ya huh?

I'm not saying that the mag is necessarily efficient. But without numbers, you can't tell if the difference is significant or worth attacking.

The pathetic thing is that the Mag probably gains most in efficiency by using the correct length barrel and not a pathetic super ported 2 piece.

[GT]

You would think for all the times I ask for quantitative analalysis that I would have it when I made a statement.

? Come on Lo do a search,
I know I have made more than a few threads about mags eff. Tune your lvlX, run and adj. tank, use good paint, and a barrel that isnt all full of holes.



Are you telling me then that you cannot have performance and efficiency in the same marker? I don't think it is the same as a car, I think its a bad example.

Ever drive a 450 hp civic that gets 30 mpg and drive it to work everyday? Anything is possible, but look at the expense invovled. How much does a featherlight or turtle E2 cocker cost? Both well tuned will get you 2k+ on a 68/4500 however each will run atleast 1.5k+ as apposed to a 900 dollar emag

[Lohman446]

But we ARE talking about higher recharge rates, or more reactive triggers. Consider the difference between tuning for low speed torque or high top speed in a car. Or tuning for fast acceleration to 100 compared to maximum fuel efficiency at 100.


Let me give the mag the fastest recharge rate in the world (I don't beleive it, but lets just give it). If all you can shoot is 15BPS (or whatever) having a 32 per second recharge rate does not give you better performance, though it would allow it. I still don't see it as a defense for poor efficiency, which may or may not exist. If all I am using my Chevy 454 for is crusiing at 70MPH then I don't have a good reason for its 6MPG. I can come up with reasons, "I like it" which is all I would need, the same as a mag, but they are not logical defenses.

[SlartyBartFast]

, but they are not logical defenses.

Perhaps. But every other marker out their is marketed and hyped with the justification of their price being the capability to outperform.

I've had the argument with Manike many times. He always argued that it's all about whether you're pushing the marker to it's limits or not.

The underlying argument of 15bps at 300fps, why have more? Destroys the reason for most markers on the market.

[Lohman446]

Perhaps. But every other marker out their is marketed and hyped with the justification of their price being the capability to outperform.

I've had the argument with Manike many times. He always argued that it's all about whether you're pushing the marker to it's limits or not.

The underlying argument of 15bps at 300fps, why have more? Destroys the reason for most markers on the market.


But are we not anti-hype. Or is this along with the new rule, can bash anything but mags. I can also use hype but only for mags? :D Mags are a great marker, for what they are... but that does not mean it does not have negative attributes either.

And frankly, in my opinion, paintball marker pricing is stupid. I can buy a Kimber for what I pay for a Shocker...

[GT]

I still don't see it as a defense for poor efficiency, which may or may not exist.


That's just it, what is poor efficiency? Does a mag shoot a case? Certianly not, I would argue that when compared with 90-99% of other makes in the market the difference in effiency is less than 10%, well tuned cockers and vikings/excals aside.

Honestly if efficiency mattered guys wouldnt have bought trixies and shockers, which for most of thier production life were the worst on the planet. I think the efficiency argument as well as "shooting deeper" is little more than displaced dislike for an otherwise great product. If you dont like the design then so sayso, if a mag is ugly to you or it doesnt have enough upgrades then state opinion as such. think people need to be alittle more honest with themsleves rather than making up a reason.

[Beemer]

The pathetic thing is that the Mag probably gains most in efficiency by using the correct length barrel and not a pathetic super ported 2 piece.

Ya but I need 14" or more so I can move the air bunkers.

I looked all over and I couldnt find a 10 inch that didnt have holes in it, why is that? Or did I miss it somewhere.

It has to be that I.A.D.S.P.B.P. thing with all these long butt barrels.

[Lohman446]

Where as I would argue that there is a knee jerk reaction by many to say "does not" or "is not" if anything less than positive about a mag is said. Remember, I own a mag, I ahve shot several, but they have there own negative issues, the same as Shockers have negatives, and every other marker out there. My only gripe is that the mag could have been more than what it was... and AGD had the resources, and the knowledge, to produce a better marker, in my opinion. I don't fault them for not, I don't know there business enough to do that, its just one of those... wish it had been things.

[hitech]

The pathetic thing is that the Mag probably gains most in efficiency by using the correct length barrel and not a pathetic super ported 2 piece.

:hail:

[hitech]

Ya but I need 14" or more so I can move the air bunkers.

I'm betting that with the level 10, a 14 inch effective length barrel is what you need. The problem is trying to find one. Anyone have one, anyone, anyone...

:cheers:

[Beemer]

I would think go the other way. Like 8"

[JimmyBeam]

Also how "deep" you can shoot may be completely meaningless. Do a search for the many efficiency threads. I've made the point before.

What is important is how many shots per tank you get. how much air left is irrelevant unless you're getting poor low pressure fills.




you dont always get a good 4.5k fill. say they are only filling to 2.5 that day. so by your reasoning, thats ok......??!!!

correct me if im wrong but your only going to get a usuable 1.5 out of that. and 1.5k psi on a mag is what....a hoppers worth of paint?

[Gunga]

Yes, compromises often have to be made. Yes, folks are often willing to deal with less efficient cars, and markers. But to strive for better efficiency should not be a taboo subject or treated as an unrealistic goal. It should BE the goal… or at least one of them in my opinion. It is precisely because of those who are never satisfied with status quo (and look for things to be BETTER) that things evolve and improve. And if done in a positive manner, it is a good thing, not bad.

Unfortunately it's far easier for a multibillion corporate giant like Ford to redesign/improve/change (for better or worse) a car like a Mustang. Certainly it costs a ton in money & labor to redesign a car. Redesigning the various flavors of Mag valve woudn't cost nearly as much but it does cost a lot. AGD isn't a huge company by any stretch of the imagination and they probably would redesign the valve...if they could afford it. The efficiency is what it is, positive or negative. Alas, AGD is hardly Ford and it is unlikely that any valve redesign is in the future. Give the efficency thing a rest. It's not going to change in the foreseeable future.

Personally, I don't have a beef with the efficiency at all. There's this cool little invention that's on my air tank. I think it's called a pressure gauge. I look at it now and then so I don't run out of air. Refill as necessary. What efficency problem?

As many have pointed out in various threads about the 'old days of AO', there hasn't been a new product announcement/release in a few years - nothing to get the kids all excited again. Personally, I don't really consider the Pro Classic a new product. Hopefully it will appeal to plenty of folks though. :)

Perhaps this lack of recent upgrades for mags is part of the root of all the negativity/complaining about "the mag doesn't do this, it doesn't do that". But then, you always hear from people who have complaints. You hardly EVER hear from people who are perfectly happy or are having no problems at all. Ask anyone who's worked in customer service before. People don't generally have anything to say to a manufacturer about a product unless it's a complaint. Thus most of what you hear on AO about AGD products are complaints - like a lot of the posts in this thread and others

For example, Lohman in particular (at least that I've noticed and I'm sure there are others) has been going on and on about the lack of eyes for quite a while. And no this isn't a personal attack against Lohman :p

X-Mags had eyes, yet most of the X-Mag owners I know (and I know a lot) - including the formerly sponsored tourney teams - never used them. Why? Because of Level 10.

Personally, I'd rather have L10 over eyes any day. Here's why:

1. No electronics or batteries required. I can use it on an E/X-Mag or a pump Mag and it works the same, albeit at a slight cost in gas consumption. If I get a chuff or two and get delayed in shooting for a 1/2 second, fine. At least I don't have a gooey mess in the gun and balls shooting every which way but straight. If the battery dies on my E-Mag, I can go into mech mode and my anti-chop system is still working without handicaps. Perfectly fine trade offs to have a pneumatic anti-chop system on my guns, whether they use batteries or not.

Not everyone uses electronic guns you know.

2. Simpler than eyes - less to go wrong. If part of the eye circutry goes bad or the battery dies in game, I'm screwed. If the L10 springs a leak, I run out of gas faster, but I'm still playing. And it's an easy at the field fix.

There are some trade offs of course, as there are with most anything. L10 can be a pain to set up/adjust for the inexperienced and even some experienced people *cough* RobAGD *cough*. :p Also, it uses a bit more air. But when you realize that this anti chop capability has been added onto a 10+ year old design without redesigning the whole thing...well I'll take that any day, thank you very much. Plus as an added bonus, the recoil has been cut in half.

Hold on a sec...what was the original post about again? :p :D

[SlartyBartFast]

But are we not anti-hype. Or is this along with the new rule, can bash anything but mags. I can also use hype but only for mags? :D Mags are a great marker, for what they are... but that does not mean it does not have negative attributes either.

And frankly, in my opinion, paintball marker pricing is stupid. I can buy a Kimber for what I pay for a Shocker...

You took me wrong. The recharge rate of the Mag is not hype. TK posted the recharge graphs. If other markers can be hyped for their claimed over performance, why is it Mag haters stomp all over the Mag even for the true positive attributes?

Questioning negatives is not Bashing.

I think QT got it right. Much of what haters attempt to pass as "truth" or "constructive criticism" is really just a profound dislike that they need to pin to something specific.

I suggest anyone truly want to discuss design and efficiency search out one of the myriad other threads and post there.

[Lohman446]

You took me wrong. The recharge rate of the Mag is not hype. TK posted the recharge graphs. If other markers can be hyped for their claimed over performance, why is it Mag haters stomp all over the Mag even for the true positive attributes?

But its usefullness is. Hype does not have to be false. One of the "hype" points of the Ion is its price, and SP hypes it. There are other $300 markers out there with very similar features, very similar performance, and some even cheaper. Still when I say cheap electro many people think of the Ion.

[bound for glory]

i stand with tuna on the whole "don't come here and tear down mags" thing. i've been shoting agd scince mag 355. get a spider over a mag? no thanks. and i'll pull 355 out of retirment and it will still out shot a 98c. all day long. and i saw quite a few at castle at emr. all the species of mags. hey tuna, you rule! wanna look at my devilmag? :)

[GT]

I'm betting that with the level 10, a 14 inch effective length barrel is what you need. The problem is trying to find one. Anyone have one, anyone, anyone...

:cheers:


arnt CP's sigle bore? You would think with all of these dealers someone could sell us a tube for 50-60 bucks.

[shartley]

Unfortunately it's far easier for a multibillion corporate giant like Ford to redesign/improve/change (for better or worse) a car like a Mustang. Certainly it costs a ton in money & labor to redesign a car. Redesigning the various flavors of Mag valve woudn't cost nearly as much but it does cost a lot. AGD isn't a huge company by any stretch of the imagination and they probably would redesign the valve...if they could afford it. The efficiency is what it is, positive or negative. Alas, AGD is hardly Ford and it is unlikely that any valve redesign is in the future. Give the efficency thing a rest. It's not going to change in the foreseeable future.

Personally, I don't have a beef with the efficiency at all. There's this cool little invention that's on my air tank. I think it's called a pressure gauge. I look at it now and then so I don't run out of air. Refill as necessary. What efficency problem?

As many have pointed out in various threads about the 'old days of AO', there hasn't been a new product announcement/release in a few years - nothing to get the kids all excited again. Personally, I don't really consider the Pro Classic a new product. Hopefully it will appeal to plenty of folks though. :)
So, if it is not easy don’t do it? Okay. ;) If it may cost a lot to improve, and you don’t have the funds to do so, it isn’t worth talking about? Okay. ;) But you do admit that if they had the money to redesign the valve they probably would. Why would they bother if it was not truly an improvement?

I think you should also know that I have stated in other threads, here as well as on other forums, that efficiency should be one of the main focuses of ALL marker manufacturers (as well as consistency). So don’t think I am just knocking Mags or AGD. I see consistency and efficiency as being the two most important things manufacturers should work on at this point. I feel that general speeds and capabilities of markers have gotten to the point where it would be a total waste of time and money to worry about those issues now.

“My marker can shoot 25BPS!”

“My marker can shoot 50BPS!”

“Well my marker can only shoot 18BPS which is still faster than what is the allowed ROF for most fields and all tournaments…..”

;) I am sure you get my point.

So what would be next? The company that can claim the best efficiency and consistancy in my opinion. And being that AGD is focusing on the woods/rec/scenario market, I think that would really be a nice feather in their cap if they could provide that. In fact, any company who can would most likely have an advantage in sales.

But with that said, I might add that while some folks may consider that Mags have an efficiency “problem” (and it is clear that some think that, and others don’t) does it matter if they do or not? Would working on efficiency be wrong? Would trying to make even the absolute best marker on the market BETTER be such a bad thing?

Can you imagine the products we would have now (or NOT have) if that was the case? What would cars look like? How would our computers work? And the list goes on and on.

It is not a bad thing to want more, better, stronger, faster, (generally speaking) even if what we have now “is just fine”, or is not a “problem”. And once we reach the levels of acceptable limits in all other areas, efficiency just seems to be the next step. I am also sure you know the old adage “If you are not moving forward, you are moving backward.”. And AGD unfortunately (as you have even pointed out) has not moved in a direction which the average consumer considers forward.

Thus the discussion….. it’s all good. Where do folks think AGD should go? What do they think they should do? How would folks like their products to change or improve? And so on and so on. I don’t think AGD has reached the pinnacle of marker design and quality. I don’t think they offer the very best that can ever be offered to paintball players. I have hope and confidence that if they WANT to reach farther and higher that they can.

It is up to AGD to take that information and either put it in the circular file, or do something about it… if they can. And if they can’t it does not make any of the discussion any less valid, or useful in my opinion. But then again, that is just my opinion. :cheers:

[JimmyBeam]

effeciency, yes

consistency, well i consider that more of a upgrade feature unless your shooting an AKA marker.(i view AKA regs as the best) and since your reg is responsible for your consitency for the most part, if you dont like it you can always just upgrade it. except for AGD guns which have the reg built into the valve. <----hmmm i got myself thinking now

[Lohman446]

Preface: Again I respect the moderators, I am probably taking a single comment and blowing it out of proportion. When I knew I was going to IAO this year I chose to go with an AO team for a reason, I appreciate AO, I value the discussion, and I appreciate the work of those that make it possible.


So, if it is not easy don’t do it? Okay. ;) If it may cost a lot to improve, and you don’t have the funds to do so, it isn’t worth talking about? Okay. ;) But you do admit that if they had the money to redesign the valve they probably would. Why would they bother if it was not truly an improvement?


Thus the discussion….. it’s all good. Where do folks think AGD should go? What do they think they should do? How would folks like their products to change or improve? And so on and so on. I don’t think AGD has reached the pinnacle of marker design and quality. I don’t think they offer the very best that can ever be offered to paintball players. I have hope and confidence that if they WANT to reach farther and higher that they can.


It is up to AGD to take that information and either put it in the circular file, or do something about it… if they can. And if they can’t it does not make any of the discussion any less valid, or useful in my opinion. But then again, that is just my opinion. :cheers:


Your forgot option three Sam - make it go away. Make anything that is not positive go away, ignore it, stick your head in the sand, and hope the industry does not leave you in the dust. Make sure it is ignored by others to, simply make those comments go away.



And another little thing that is starting to piss me off. If you decide that you want to come here and bash Mags, your post will be deleted. I will do it personally. This is a mag forum for mag owners and other gun owners alike. We dont bash other guns around here so neither will any of you bash mags. Take it to your "other " forums and do it there. If you haven't already realized what is going on, there are new owners at AGD and they deserve the same help from all of us to keep them rolling along. Its a tough enough market out there without having retards bashing your products on you own damn forum.

I guess thats the option we are taking on this forum, good luck with that.

[Lohman446]

That's just it, what is poor efficiency? Does a mag shoot a case? Certianly not, I would argue that when compared with 90-99% of other makes in the market the difference in effiency is less than 10%, well tuned cockers and vikings/excals aside.

Honestly if efficiency mattered guys wouldnt have bought trixies and shockers, which for most of thier production life were the worst on the planet. I think the efficiency argument as well as "shooting deeper" is little more than displaced dislike for an otherwise great product. If you dont like the design then so sayso, if a mag is ugly to you or it doesnt have enough upgrades then state opinion as such. think people need to be alittle more honest with themsleves rather than making up a reason.

The thing is, Shockers have made improvements to efficiency, or at least addressed the issue. I would assume the newest DMxS are more efficient than the old (though I'm not sure). These companies are willing to move forward, to say "this is what we need to work on" rather than looking at potential buyers and tellign them "that's not an issue". I would like to know what has been done to make this marker better than the other marker I am using. Do I expect they are great steps, or justify the cost, not at all. They are steps though, and I think thats why AGD slowly fell behind. You don't take giant leaps forward as a general rule, you take little steps. If you don't take little steps pretty soon everyone is way ahead of you. The tortoise and the hair, steady, slow progress most often wins the race, seldom does one see anything revolutionary.

[hitech]

I would think go the other way. Like 8"
With level 10 the dump chamber pressures are greater. Therefore, when the ball reaches 10 inches (the level 7 optimum length) there is more pressure behind the ball. The paintball would continue to accelerate, since there is more pressure. A longer barrel should produce higher velocities at the same chamber pressure.

Additionally, the main inefficiency in the 'mag is the fact that the bolt is still forward (and venting air from the chamber) after the ball is gone. A longer barrel will not only use this pressure to accelerate the paintball, but may shorten the time the chamber vents.

[hitech]

1.5k psi on a mag is what....a hoppers worth of paint?

Not on mine! :p

[GT]

Preface: Again I respect the moderators, I am probably taking a single comment and blowing it out of proportion. When I knew I was going to IAO this year I chose to go with an AO team for a reason, I appreciate AO, I value the discussion, and I appreciate the work of those that make it possible.

Your forgot option three Sam - make it go away. Make anything that is not positive go away, ignore it, stick your head in the sand, and hope the industry does not leave you in the dust. Make sure it is ignored by others to, simply make those comments go away.

I guess thats the option we are taking on this forum, good luck with that.


Lo,
Dont take all of this personally, I think most of us are tired of hearing the same old crap. By and large the markers we can buy today are far better than those produced even 5 years ago. All of them atleast shoot 300fps. The issue I have is when opinions are spouted as fact with little numeric analysis. If you dont like the gun because it isnt LP enough, fine. If you dont like the gun because it is inefficeint, fine, but dont in the same breath buy a shocker with nearly the same shots per fill nor provide me with a definition of inefficiency.

Opinion based in fact is always welcome, even it is contrary to the product. I personally think the E/Xmag software sucks because I can get it flashed with "cheater ware." That is an issue I have and chose not to purchase an emag, right now ;)

[GT]

The thing is, Shockers have made improvements to efficiency, or at least addressed the issue.


when did the first PVI shocker come out? '94~95? Not only did they fail at solving the problem with the shoe box they completly dumped the gun and built something else, which is the same as every other spool valved gun. All this from one of the largest pb compaines on the planet. how many shots per fill (68) does the new bolt shocker get 1400~1600. Agd has been doing that since '91.

[Lohman446]

Lo,
Dont take all of this personally, I think most of us are tired of hearing the same old crap. By and large the markers we can buy today are far better than those produced even 5 years ago. All of them atleast shoot 300fps. The issue I have is when opinions are spouted as fact with little numeric analysis. If you dont like the gun because it isnt LP enough, fine. If you dont like the gun because it is inefficeint, fine, but dont in the same breath buy a shocker with nearly the same shots per fill nor provide me with a definition of inefficiency.

Opinion based in fact is always welcome, even it is contrary to the product. I personally think the E/Xmag software sucks because I can get it flashed with "cheater ware." That is an issue I have and chose not to purchase an emag, right now ;)

I don't take it as offensive. Want to hear something funny? I couldn't care less about efficiency for my use. I carry a 68 tank because of size, I use 4500 so some idiot at a fill station doesn't fill a 3K to 45, and I carry three pods on the field. I only play at established fields with my semis (woodball is played stock with 12 grams) and I refill after every game as a matter of practice. For all the complaints I have ordered a Devilmag. I do see though, how efficiency, is a concern for many people.

Its not that I think the mag is a bad marker, nor would I really have gotten into this thread. Tuna's quote (which I still think I'm probably taking at face value and blowing it out of proportion to what he said, rather than what he meant) is what got my attention.

I just don't like the idea of dismissing, and devaluing the negatives of a mag. They exist. Do they make the mag an overall bad marker? Not at all. Could the mag be better? Most definetly. Thats the point I am trying to make. If we ignore anything but the positives, we don't try to improve, if we don't try to improve.. it eventually causes us problems. You can replace "us" and "we" with "AGD" and be more accurate in that statement of course.

I have no quantitative data on shots per fills of markers out there, nor would it matter to me in buying one, but there have been attempts to get more by many companies. And I beleive, that there are people who buy markers that care about efficiency. I'll look through the forums later and see what I can find though.

[SlartyBartFast]

effeciency, yes

consistency, well i consider that more of a upgrade feature unless your shooting an AKA marker.(i view AKA regs as the best) and since your reg is responsible for your consitency for the most part, if you dont like it you can always just upgrade it. except for AGD guns which have the reg built into the valve. <----hmmm i got myself thinking now

:confused:

The only thing a paintball marker can do to improve accuracy and precision is consistency.

Why relegate that to "upgrade"? You actually find it acceptable to have to pay more to have something work well?

The Mag is as consistent as they come (although there is the issue of chrono procedure....).

[JMAN]

The Mag is as consistent as they come (although there is the issue of chrono procedure....).

What issue? I'm new to Mags. :confused:

[GT]

What issue? I'm new to Mags. :confused:


me too!!!

:rofl:

[JimmyBeam]

:confused:


The Mag is as consistent as they come (although there is the issue of chrono procedure....).


true, they are almost the perfect marker, which is why i dont get it. they got a damn good product, but why did they stop short and not go for perfection? was effeciency not an issue back then?

maybe one of you who are more knowleged in this area could help me out. why do mags use so much air? what in thier design calls for the release of the extra air? could it be controlled more? or would that hinder performance?

[hitech]

With level 10 the dump chamber pressures are greater. Therefore, when the ball reaches 10 inches (the level 7 optimum length) there is more pressure behind the ball. The paintball would continue to accelerate, since there is more pressure. A longer barrel should produce higher velocities at the same chamber pressure.

Additionally, the main inefficiency in the 'mag is the fact that the bolt is still forward (and venting air from the chamber) after the ball is gone. A longer barrel will not only use this pressure to accelerate the paintball, but may shorten the time the chamber vents.

Also, generally speaking, the faster you get the paintball up to speed the less air you use. This is because you have less volume to fill (all the area behind the paintball). The farther down the barrel is has to go, the more area you have to fill. The greater the area, the more air required to obtain the same pressure. And it is the pressure that accelerates the paintball.


:cheers:

[JimmyBeam]

k gotcha. thanks

[SlartyBartFast]

What issue? I'm new to Mags. :confused:

The question of how much "shoot-up" really exists and at what ROF.

[SlartyBartFast]

you dont always get a good 4.5k fill. say they are only filling to 2.5 that day. so by your reasoning, thats ok......??!!!

correct me if im wrong but your only going to get a usuable 1.5 out of that. and 1.5k psi on a mag is what....a hoppers worth of paint?

Now you're talking another ball game.

Is the problem the marker or the crappy fills?

For 1.5k to be a hopper of balls, What tank you using? A 30cu.in.? :rofl:

[SlartyBartFast]

Also, generally speaking, the faster you get the paintball up to speed the less air you use. This is because you have less volume to fill (all the area behind the paintball). The farther down the barrel is has to go, the more area you have to fill. The greater the area, the more air required to obtain the same pressure. And it is the pressure that accelerates the paintball.

That's not quite right. It depends on how the air is delivered.

If the dump chamber were simply opened (say there's no return spring and the bolt latches foprward), the required barrel length is a function of the initial pressure and the amount it has to expand such that the ball is travelling 300fps. Actually, the final speed would constrain both the required pressure and the required length if you wanted no losses/inefficiencies.

The question with the mag is that the bolt stays open and continues to vent after the ball has left the barrel. So, after the "ideal" length of a given pressure dumped behind the ball there's the issue of when lengthening the barrel stops providing adequate return (acceleration from the continued lower pressure flow through the bolt). The pressure effectively builds to a spike and then drops off. To best deliver air, the valve would ideally stop delivering air after the drop off.

The "volume to fill" argument is not entirely applicable to spool valves (except perhaps the pathetic continuously venting design of the original shocker) or 'perfect' dump chambers. It's only valid if you were trying to continuously feed air behind the ball. Or in cases where there is a mixture of processes occuring.

The annoying truth is that to get the ball up to speed as quickly as possible means HIGHER pressures delivered through the bolt in shorter bursts. Try and convinve the LP fanboys of that.

[JimmyBeam]

Now you're talking another ball game.

Is the problem the marker or the crappy fills?

For 1.5k to be a hopper of balls, What tank you using? A 30cu.in.? :rofl:


no, crappy fills are part of going to the fields here. and your gun should be able to get the most out of any fill pressure you get. a hopper holds just less than 200 rounds. and my mag got right around 200 shots per ~1k in pressure. so ok, you got a little more than a hoppers worth off 1.5

if i had 1500 psi or less i didnt even attempt to play that game with my mag. i'd sit it out and go fill. kind of a waste to me. im much happier now. 1500 psi might will last me two games now. i like to shoot alot of paint. thats jsut me, but our recball games were anywhere from 10-30 people to a team. so not being able to rely on your gun to conserve air bothered me alot.

you guys are die hard, and nothing i can say is going to change your views. right on! more power to you. but i played with my mag for two years straight....every weekend. i loved it until i started realizing i was filling up 2 maybe 3 times more than everyone else on the field. it was then time for me to move on. which might not bother some people, you might have all day air within an arms reach. but from my home field to the fill station was about a 100 hundred yard walk which i got tired of doing 6 times a day.

this is my last post about this so i'll just say this. yes the mags are reliable and easy to maintain. but its not for me. i like to get more out of my fills, and love to be flexible about where i play. fix the air problem and I'll come back in a heartbeat. but for example, ask a AKA owner to give up thier case per fill effeciency and see what they say....effeciency, to me is a must. fill up and play with confidence that your not going to run out of air.

[SlartyBartFast]

and your gun should be able to get the most out of any fill pressure you get.

Sorry but that's rubbish. EVERY mechanical and electrical system has it's requirements. If you can't meet the requirements, don't use the equipment.

A race car needs high octane or methyl alcohol fuel. Don't complain if it doesn't perform with regular gas.

Is the HALO garbage because it can't work well with a 9v instead of 6AAs? Or that it loses performance before a Revy when supplied with new batteries?

But 200 rounds off of a 2500psi fill seems suspiciously/rediculously low. And trying to discuss the issue is pointless without knowing the SIZE of the tank.

You also seem to vacilate. if you're getting 200 shots per 1000psi, is that for pressure ABOVE 1000? or TOTAL pressure full? You get 700 shots from a 4500psi fill?



you guys are die hard, and nothing i can say is going to change your views. right on! more power to you. but i played with my mag for two years straight....every weekend. i loved it until i started realizing i was filling up 2 maybe 3 times more than everyone else on the field. it was then time for me to move on. which might not bother some people, you might have all day air within an arms reach. but from my home field to the fill station was about a 100 hundred yard walk which i got tired of doing 6 times a day.

this is my last post about this so i'll just say this. yes the mags are reliable and easy to maintain. but its not for me. i like to get more out of my fills, and love to be flexible about where i play. fix the air problem and I'll come back in a heartbeat. but for example, ask a AKA owner to give up thier case per fill effeciency and see what they say....effeciency, to me is a must. fill up and play with confidence that your not going to run out of air.

Don't think anyone is disagreeing with you entirely. Each product has its ups, its downs, and the target amrket it's trying to reach.

Mags don't fit the bill for people who want small tanks and to live with low pressure fills.

But to really discuss this all intelligently, I'd love to see data and tests. WARPIG finally standardised the hopper test, I'd like to see a standardised out-of-the-box shots per tank test.

[SlartyBartFast]

That's not quite right. It depends on how the air is delivered.


Hmm. We're both full of it.

If you accelerate the ball as quickly as possible, you waste more air.

Someone needs to model this in MATLAB or some pneumatics simulation software.....

[TAW]

Hitech yes higher pressure is more efficient, been proven before. The tough part is convincing people that its a good idea.

AGD

Hitech have you made a Hypermag yet?

[SlartyBartFast]

Hitech yes higher pressure is more efficient, been proven before. The tough part is convincing people that its a good idea.

AGD

I've challenged AGD in another thread when that was brought up. I tend to believe the statement. WHat I don't believe is TK's refusal to attempt to build such a marker.

If it's been proven, if ti works, it should be easy to show.

[Lohman446]

I've challenged AGD in another thread when that was brought up. I tend to believe the statement. WHat I don't believe is TK's refusal to attempt to build such a marker.

If it's been proven, if ti works, it should be easy to show.


I understand enough of the base physics to understand it works. The question then comes back to this. Say I accept, without numerical evidence, that mags are inneficcient to begin with - the question becomes how inefficient, is it 1500 shots out of a fill, 1000, etc. Even then a mags issue seems not to be with base efficiency but with poor fills and the bottom end... if you made a higher pressure mag it would only make this issue worse. How much efficiency would you gain? If you can tell me I can get a case from 3K to 1K I don't care that I bottom out at 1K, but if your only increasing my "efficiency" by 100 rounds, then I might care.

[SlartyBartFast]

Say I accept, without numerical evidence,

:rofl:

Isn't that the rub though? Show me the NUMBERS! :p

If you can't get good fills, Mags might not be a good choice for you. But that's not the marker's fault. Whether there's a marketing/sales issue that makes it a business problem for AGD that's something else.

But to put this thread back on topic:
How well does the NEW/OLD MiniMag run on CO2?

[Lohman446]

Isn't that the rub though? Show me the NUMBERS! :p


I can accept some things without numbers. For instance, say you tell me that a Volkswagon is heavier than a kite.. I don't need numbers to beleive you. I just accept it even though I'm sure, somewhere, theres some 2 ton kite that would prove me wrong :D

[Raven001]

What valve comes with the new Classic/Mini?

Is it the old stainless steele one?

[hitech]

Hitech have you made a Hypermag yet?
Nope. Haven't had a chance to try anything. Hell, I don't even have the warp & flatline combo mount I got from Luke completely installed yet! With the baby, my spare time is gone.

Someone should take a one piece barrel and tape up the holes and see what effect it has on a level 10 mag. Chrono it before and after taping the holes.

:cheers:

[hitech]

I've challenged AGD in another thread when that was brought up. I tend to believe the statement. WHat I don't believe is TK's refusal to attempt to build such a marker.

If it's been proven, if ti works, it should be easy to show.


Tom had already given up trying to convince paintball players that anything was better. :(

[TAW]

Someone should take a one piece barrel and tape up the holes and see what effect it has on a level 10 mag. Chrono it before and after taping the holes.

I have a Newer All American barrel with the tip that equals 12" and a 12" teardrop barrel. Both have the same bore size.

The AA barrel has an effective length of 6" and the TD is 8".

I gained a minimum 10 FPS useing the TD barrel. So to me two piece barrels are crap HYPE.

EDIT: I hit enter before I could say that Tom allready proved barrel length and paint/bore match along time ago and yet look how many two piece barrels are out there that are too short to be usefull.

[SlartyBartFast]

I gained a minimum 10 FPS useing the TD barrel. So to me two piece barrels are crap HYPE.

Actually, thinking about it, isn't that 10fps EXTREMELY significant considering energy calculations?

If energy = 0·5 x mass x velocity^2.

0.5 x kg x (m/s)^2 = J

3oz at 290fps = 0.5 x 0.085 x 88.392^2 = 332.05
3oz at 300fps = 0.5 x 0.085 x 91.44^2 = 355.35

So,

Velocity = 290/300 = 96.666 or, roughly a 4% drop in velocity.
Energy = 332.05/355.35 = 93.443 or roughly a 7% drop in energy.

So, everyone using kits or two piece barrels with short front halfs are probably wasting 10-15% of the energy in their tank.

Gotta hand it to TK and you can understand any frustrations with the average dolt player. The Minimag stock barrels were 8" unported, the stock Mag ones were 12 (no?).

If I remember, Manike bought all of TK's test barrels. Wasn't there a batch that were incremental lengths?

[hitech]

The AA barrel has an effective length of 6" and the TD is 8".

I gained a minimum 10 FPS useing the TD barrel. So to me two piece barrels are crap HYPE.



I'd REALLY like to see the difference between the 6 inch effective length and a 12 inch effective length on a level 10 'mag. :shooting:

[Beemer]

Gotta hand it to TK and you can understand any frustrations with the average dolt player. The Minimag stock barrels were 8" unported, the stock Mag ones were 12 (no?).

My stock MM barrel is 7" and Mag barrel is 10". Twist locks, measured from the breach or 8" and 11" end to end no holes.



So, everyone using kits or two piece barrels with short front halfs are probably wasting 10-15% of the energy in their tank.

But they wont believe you. Its that dam I.A.D.S.P.B.P. thing that always comes in to play.



I gained a minimum 10 FPS useing the TD barrel. So to me two piece barrels are crap HYPE.

EDIT: I hit enter before I could say that Tom allready proved barrel length and paint/bore match along time ago and yet look how many two piece barrels are out there that are too short to be usefull.

Yup. Uninformed uneducated players.

Paintball, try and sell me what I dont need or isnt usefull, and they buy all day long. Go figure.